Does God Command Open Borders?

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That's kind of how they were presenting it, where it's like, hey, I didn't realize that, you know, state policies were more important than human beings.

00:09

And I guess my response to all that as I'm reading it, as I'm looking through it, was just to say,

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age old question, does

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God command open border policies? Now, this is one of those topics that has been discussed ad nauseum lately because there's a lot of issues going on around the

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U .S. Southern border in particular, and so we wanted to talk about this topic and give a biblical perspective on it.

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But with that being said, Tim, as we start this conversation off, if we wanna give it a biblical perspective, we probably ought to read something from the

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Bible, right? So do you have anything for us that pertains to the topic of open borders and whether or not the

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U .S. should be instituting an open border policy? Sure, yeah. So Revelation 22, 14 through 15 says, "'Blessed are those who wash their robes "'so that they may have the right to the tree of life, "'that they may enter the city by the gates.

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"'Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, "'the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolaters, "'and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.'"

02:57

So there you go. Heaven has gates. So basically you're saying that everyone that's not a

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U .S. citizen is a dog and a sorcerer and a murderer, is that what you're saying? I mean, apparently. I mean, part of the problem though is that we murder so many of our babies as insiders here.

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So that's quite a fair comparison, but I mean -

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I don't know how comfortable I feel comparing the U .S. to heaven, given who's inside the

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U .S. Sure, sure. No, I mean, I think the idea though is that there's obviously such a thing in the

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Bible as cities with gates that prevent outsiders from entering in as they will.

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So, I mean, I hate to tell you, but there is this concept of evil people.

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What? Evil people do - What are you talking about, Tim? Evil people do exist. And so, they may come to try to destroy a nation.

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So there is one of the responsibilities of government is to protect their citizens. Hang on, hang on.

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Let's go back to this for a second because you obviously felt the need to clarify that there are evil people.

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So why exactly do you feel the need to say that in a discussion about whether or not we should have open borders?

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Which, I mean, there is, I mean, if you do have a nation who has an enemy, right?

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So you can conceive of a scenario where another country would seek to do us harm. So if you don't have a border, they can just kind of, or you don't have some kind of like border wall or some kind of security or something like that, they can just kind of march their army right in there.

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And if you just assume the best of them, that they're just nice people, just like you are. I don't know why they're bringing tanks and guns and everything else.

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And so - Hey, those torches are to light the way at night. They're not gonna burn down the cities with them.

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Come on. What do you think? Those Molotovs are so they can see. That's right. That's right.

05:09

So basically you're saying that because there are people who assume that anyone trying to get into the country is just like, they're morally neutral at worst.

05:25

Is that why you felt the need to say, hey, people are evil? People, I mean, there's a concept of a sojourner in the

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Bible and then there's a concept of an invader in the Bible too. And then there's concepts of citizenship in the

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Bible. So I mean, Acts 17, 26 says, he made from one man, every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods in the boundaries of their dwelling places.

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So there is a concept of a nation. There is a concept of boundaries that God has appointed, right?

05:56

Israel obviously built walls around the city. They were to welcome the sojourner, but then they built walls and set guards because they understood that not everyone is coming with good intentions, okay?

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So - Yeah, I guess we should ask the Israelites if they wish they had a better wall when the

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Babylonians came, huh? That's right. I mean, so like the issue is like, yes, a nation does have, there is such a thing as a nation.

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So part of it is if there's no such thing as like in that open border policy or whatever else, there's almost like no concept of a nation anymore.

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Like you've just reduced, like you've destroyed kind of the concept of a nation to a certain extent, meaning like there's no thing called a nation that has boundaries, that has some sort of identity, that has some sort of responsibility to its people, to protect its people and everything else.

06:51

So like, so part of it is that. Now, I mean, I think in, yeah, obviously, the

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Bible would have a lot to say about being friendly to sojourners. And -

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Sure, yeah. The idea of just being some sort of an isolationist nation who refuses to let anyone, you know, peacefully come and enter.

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You know, I don't know that Christians should, like you can camp out in some kind of mentality that's like, hey, we're the good guys and everyone else is the bad guys.

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And it's like, well, that isn't really the way the world works. And in fact, I mean, if you can look at our country and say, hey, we're the good guys, then there's probably something wrong with you.

07:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's not to say that, you know, we're, that's not to say that, that there's like, we're the worst nation in the world today or something along those lines.

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I wouldn't be saying that at all. But I would just be saying, if you just think, hey, like, we're the good guys and then anyone who isn't a part of what we are are the bad guys.

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A lot of people, unfortunately, do think that way. And that's not really a very biblical way of thinking at all. So, I mean, we do want to accomplish a great mission, like the idea of the nation's coming here and experiencing the blessings that are here.

08:02

Those are all good things. So, I mean, you should think of those as good things. That doesn't, but then there's a way to say, hey, those are good things without saying unrestricted, out of control immigration is also a good thing.

08:18

Yeah, yeah. So, I guess in your mind, what, I mean, obviously the difference between like an, an invader and a peaceful sojourner is, one is coming peacefully, right?

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And the other one is coming, you know. Weapons. Not, yeah, with weapons or with ill intent, right?

08:41

But then what, I mean, I think it seems like part of the problem with this kind of discussion is, is for a while at least, maybe it's not really anymore just because I have seen a lot of people who are legitimately arguing for essentially just literally open borders.

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Like just anyone come, right? And, but it used, it used to be that people understood that there was the kind of person you didn't want to let in, right?

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But, but then the question, but then the question was, well, how do you determine all of that?

09:19

Yeah. And so. Mexico is not sending their best people. And they're not sending their best.

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So, so I guess like, how do you, as a Christian, let's say you're, let's say you're a Christian who is trying to come up with some sort of legislation or whatever to practically address the issues at the border.

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How do you, how do you as a Christian practically determine who is a peaceful sojourner?

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And who is not? I mean, even today, there are children and whatnot crossing the border.

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But then the problem with that even is a lot of it's like trafficking and it's not just like, oh, hey, let the little children come.

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It's like you're enabling people to do extremely illegal things and take advantage of the most innocent and most defenseless people in society by enabling like human trafficking and whatnot.

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And so it's like this really complicated, or at least it seems like it's a really complicated issue to try and solve.

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So, if you're a Christian in that kind of situation, how do you even begin to address something like that?

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Knowing that, hey, I want to be able to treat the peaceful sojourner well and try and help them meet their needs the way that God would command me to, while at the same time, knowing that I have a responsibility to protect the people who put me in this office to begin with from harmful invaders.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a problem that's more fundamental than the one that you're mentioning that makes it a lot more messy.

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Okay? So meaning like the idea of the nations coming here in order to experience the blessings of a

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Christian, largely Christian culture or something like that, be objects of evangelism, like a lot of that is largely good, but then part of the problem is that we're a semi -socialist country.

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And that seems to be the main issue with what's currently happening. So when you let out of control immigrants come,

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I mean, we have all these entitlement programs that now they're entitled to, right? So the issue is every immigrant you let in, functionally, you're robbing your citizens because we're gonna have to provide for them.

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We're gonna have to provide basic healthcare for them. You know what I'm saying? They're basically, when you let, in the situation we're in because we're a semi -socialist country, because the country we are living in, instead of just seeing it as their responsibility to protect property rights, bear the sword and all that, the issue is we now see it as the government's responsibility to provide, okay?

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So it's like, so it's the, we see it as the government's responsibility to ensure that everyone within our territory is provided for, you know, in terms of like basic, like their basic needs, and then even like luxuries, like healthcare and everything else.

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So the issue is everyone who comes here, who starts out new, they are getting access to all this stuff, okay?

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And like this stuff doesn't come from nowhere. So it's coming from citizens. So, you know, what that's doing is it's raising taxes, right?

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Like it's increasing taxes, increasing our national debt. It's just one of those things where we're just really in trouble, right?

12:49

So like, there's no way to fix this problem. So yeah, I mean, like looking at the current situation, it's like, yeah, well, until we fix that problem, maybe you need like a hundred foot wall, you know?

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I mean, cause like the issue is the Bible says, thou shalt not steal, right? Right, yeah.

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So like, basically you're just, you're putting people in a situation where there's no good answers here.

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Well, and not even to mention the whole voting aspect of everything, right? Where, you know, voting restrictions and the whole process of it seem to be getting more and more lax, right?

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And, you know, I think there's a reason that most

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Democrats are perfectly okay with the immigration policy the way that it is right now.

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And it's not because I think they care about those people and their wellbeing. Yeah, well, there's a lot of, yeah.

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So there's just a lot of problems with out of control immigration. There's obviously reasons why certain parties are advocating it.

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One party is advocating it and the other one is not. So I think that that's just part of what makes the thing complicated.

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And then there's just like, you know, the idea that what also makes it complicated is that generally speaking, if there is like a strong sense of citizenship, right?

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There's just like a legal, you know, citizenship. Like in general, like we used to understand that if you come to someone's home that you would adopt the practices, the customs and everything else, like you would assimilate right into a culture.

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So what's happening now with the out of control immigration that we have is that there is no sense of like culture that anyone needs to assimilate.

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So when you add like, you know, critical theory and all that to it, and you add multiculturalism to this equation,

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I mean, you basically, you're in a situation where there is no expectation that anyone assimilate whatsoever, right?

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And so then you do have a bunch of people who don't share the same values as you as a country coming in basically to, you know, rewrite society in that way, right?

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And so that's just, that's not what you would do. Like if you want to move to Rome, you become a

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Roman, right? Like that's the way it works. Like you have to, you know, like, so like the issue is in those cultures and those customs, they may be prohibited to you desiring to immigrate there if you knew that those were the terms, right?

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So like in the current arrangement we have with the expectations we have, there's really no sense of what even a nation is anymore.

15:34

Right, yeah, and I see a lot of people who essentially, you know, they point back to America's history as a country that, you know,

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I mean, you know, oftentimes people refer to the U .S. as, you know, a cultural melting pot, right?

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Because you had so many different people coming from, you know, specifically Europe for so long that you had all of these different cultures coming together, living in the same country.

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But then it seems like the difference between then and now is, you know, a lot of those people were coming with the intention of participating in building up society.

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And, you know, nowadays it seems like they're coming with the intention of just leeching off of that society, right?

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Because like you mentioned earlier, we are a, you know, semi -socialist country. I mean, if you import the third world, then you get the third world.

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And I mean, I think that's essentially what's happening in Europe, right? So I mean, you can just read the books about what's happening in Europe.

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And what you have is you have a lot of people who are coming to take. They're not coming to contribute, not coming to give.

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They're not coming to, you know, make a difference. They're not coming to assimilate. They're coming, bringing their values, bringing their customs, you know, and just coming as takers, basically, who, you know, have individuals who say, hey, you have a right to plunder us, right?

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And functionally change everything that we're doing. So now, I mean, so I think it's obviously complicated and we're kind of, we're at a situation right now where every single person who comes here as a sojourner or whatever,

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I mean, they are coming, plundering us, right? But against our will, unwillingly.

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And then, you know, you have, I mean, the news won't talk about it, but I mean, you have all the problems that come with that, too, all the crime that comes with that, drugs that come with that, and everything else.

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So it is very hard. I mean, that's why having like some sort of citizenship process is important to have, right?

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Like having some kind of citizenship process, not just like, hey, you're here, you know, therefore, let's give you all this stuff, because now we have a responsibility to provide for you in that way.

17:53

So yeah, it's a mess, for sure. Yeah, so now with all that being said, though, the

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Bible, especially, you know, the Old Testament, I would argue probably the New Testament as well in certain places, but specifically the

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Old Testament I'm thinking of right now, God did give the Israelites commands to take care of the sojourners in certain ways.

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You know, one example I can think of off the top of my head is they were commanded not to, you know, harvest the corners of their fields, right?

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And they're supposed to leave that for the sojourner to pick grain and, you know, consume that produce themselves, right?

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And so that was meant to be an example of how the Israelites would care for the sojourner in their land.

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So how does, you know, how does something like that apply to the modern Christian today when thinking about immigration, when thinking about people wanting open border policies?

18:57

I've seen a lot of progressives who would look at commands like that and then say, yes, we are trying to obey certain commands like that, which in itself is pretty funny, if you think about it, because they're so against Christian nationalism, they're so against putting in any sort of law that is obviously influenced by the

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Bible, unless it aligns with the things they already wanted, right? And so, you know, they're perfectly fine with instituting any sort of law that gives, that creates more of a welfare state for the country because, you know, obviously the

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Bible commanded us to provide for, you know, those in need, right?

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And so oftentimes they do that, but then getting back to the point, they would argue, hey, using, you know, providing immigrants with these sorts of resources that our country has, that's our form of, you know, not harvesting the corners of your fields, for example.

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So what would your response be to that? Is that a biblical way to think about it or is that a poor way to think about it?

20:07

Yeah, I mean, it's equivocation essentially. So I mean, like the issue is like, you think about the analogy, what's happening there is that's not like a governmental policy that's being instituted.

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There's no like civic penalty for violating that. That's a voluntary thing. So I mean, that's something that God commands like individual

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Israelites to do, right? To leave the corners of the field. But I mean, there's no commissioner that's gonna come by and check to see if you've cleaned the corners of your field and there's no punishment that happens when you don't.

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So this is like, meaning like there's a difference between God saying, hey, care for widows and orphans in their distress and the government taking your money from you and doing it for you.

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Right, yeah. One is voluntary, the other is not, right? The other is enforced by the coercive power of the state.

20:55

So I mean, that's part of this issue, okay? So that's part of this issue. The other part of the issue is it's actually only the corner fields, right?

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So meaning once the corners are done, they're done. Yeah, it's a small portion, right?

21:12

Yeah, so the bulk of it goes to you who have labored over it and they're not even allowed to take like a farming implement and take it to the field, right?

21:20

They can grab things with their hand or whatever. But so like this is like a very limited kind of charity that you imagine like if you have your farm and 10 sojourners come to clean the corner of the fields, the issue is those corners are gonna run out really fast, right?

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Right. So this isn't meant to be like you provide them their basic needs, like all of their basic needs kind of scenario.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And like, so you think about that, like if only the corners of the field are available, there's gonna be like people who like, that's going to discourage out of control immigration.

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You see what I'm saying? Yeah, because there's not enough to support everyone coming, right? Yeah, so it's not just gonna like encourage just rapid out of control immigration with no barriers and with no limits.

22:17

So like the issue is like, yes, like there's some there for someone who's in a desperate situation, right?

22:24

Mm -hmm. But like if, you know, you have millions of refugees who are in desperate situations like this isn't like this, that isn't the way that immigration works in the

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Bible, right? The way that immigration works in the Bible is not just like massive amounts of people, you know, coming in as conquerors, right?

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Like that's not like expecting to have everyone take care of them. Like the issue is like that would naturally limit the inflow.

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And then when you come in, you're gonna have to assimilate to the culture and you're gonna have to assimilate to their customs.

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Like you can't just come over, you know, as a person who say, hey, yeah, give me all your stuff, man. You know, so like God wasn't commanding the

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Israelites to basically, you know, build boarding houses for any, like an unlimited number of invaders and basically rob their children and rob their families and rob their, you know, like lose all their inheritance trying to, you know, give anyone and everyone who they have never met before, right, access to the majority of their resources or something along those lines.

23:24

So one, like it's just not like that wasn't policed by the state, right?

23:29

This wasn't enforced by the courts or power of the state. There's no civic penalties that are attached to it.

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Two, it's a very small portion of the field, right? Right. Like it's a very, which is going to limit the amount of, you know, peaceful sojourners who can come, right?

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And then two, I mean, you do have to assimilate to the culture and the society and the customs. You can't just come with your head out saying, give me, give me, give me, right?

23:58

So people know that, yeah, there may not be enough fields there. It's going to force you to think about how you're going to make it, right?

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Have some sort of plan about how you're going to make it. Over and against just coming with no resources, you know, being a, like even the

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Bible says if someone's not willing to work, don't let them eat. Just coming as a drain on society, right? With no resources whatsoever, just taking all the handouts, you know, and basically just like, that's just, that's not what that's saying at all, if that makes sense.

24:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that, that makes perfect sense. So I have seen a lot of other people arguing that, hey, if we want to truly love our neighbor, we would have open border policies.

24:44

So, so what is your response to that? Because that seems like, well, well,

24:50

I won't weigh in on it. I'll just, I'll just ask you, what is your response to the person who says, hey, we aren't truly loving our neighbor unless we are instituting some sort of policy that allows the free flow of immigrants into our country?

25:07

Yeah, I mean, under the current terms, it's just nonsense, right? So under the current terms of like the situation that we're actually talking about right now with the socialist policies that we have,

25:17

I mean, basically like you're just in a situation where the government is for like robbing, you're robbing you blind, right?

25:25

In order to provide for people that you don't know. So, I mean, I think that's, that's not at all like a biblical impulse.

25:33

Now, I mean, the issue is that everyone has given, been given certain talents and abilities and resources and they have to figure out what they're gonna do with it.

25:42

And one of those priorities is to care for the sojourner for sure, but then like you have, like the issue is like, it's not good to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs.

25:52

So you can rob like the people, like you do have varying degrees of responsibility to people, right?

26:00

Right. So, and you have special responsibilities to certain people, meaning like as a man, you can't love all women equally.

26:08

Just because there's like there are certain things that are expected of you as a man, for your family, right?

26:15

You have greater responsibility. So, I mean, you have, you do good to all, but especially to the household of faith, right?

26:22

So, like the issue is like you have churches to support, pastors to support, family to support, missionaries to support, like you don't have an endless number of resources and this can get absurd really quickly.

26:36

If 10 sojourners come and decide they wanna live in your backyard or something. Yeah. Well, obviously you're not loving your neighbor unless you let them live there.

26:48

Yeah, I mean, so like the issue is like property exists, you know, it's a real thing. And like very -

26:54

Or, hey, you know, big brain move here. They're not my neighbor if I never let them move in.

27:01

Yeah. So, I mean, there's like the issue is there's obviously like a never ending list of good things to do.

27:12

And I'm not advocating that a person says, hey, yeah, it's complicated, so don't even try. But I am trying to say that, you know, in the best of situations, like the help that you can provide is very little, okay?

27:25

Like meaning like you're, I mean, unless you're just like independently wealthy or something like that,

27:31

I don't really know what you're gonna do. Like you can help very little. So, I mean, like the idea of just mass out of control immigration into your country where each person has a responsibility to, you know, provide for anyone and everyone, you know, who comes in here with no strings attached, no whatsoever, provide all their basic needs with no thought.

27:50

But, you know, are you able to contribute anything to the society? Do you speak the language? Are you willing to, you know, assimilate to the culture?

27:59

Was it, you know, and all that, I could just, it gets really crazy really quick for sure. Yeah. And that's something

28:05

I was thinking about as I was, you know, I was reading, I was reading a bunch of people online who were essentially, you know, they were,

28:14

I guess, dumbfounded by, you know, the fact that politicians and lawmakers and government officials could choose, you know, state policies over human beings, over human lives, right?

28:28

And that's kind of how they were presenting it where it's like, hey, I didn't realize that, you know, state policies were more important than human beings.

28:38

And I guess, I guess my kind of, my response to all that as I'm reading it, as I'm looking through it was just to say,

28:45

I think you're totally unfair in your framing of the situation to begin with.

28:51

We're not talking about, you know, our state's laws, you know, more important than literal human beings with souls.

29:02

We're talking about our state laws that were put in place by human beings with souls to protect other human beings with souls who are a part of this country legally and who voted those lawmakers into office in the first place to ultimately reward good and punish evil.

29:25

Is that more important than, you know, the human being that is coming in and seeking to leech off of the system that's been put in place?

29:37

Yeah, I mean, it's all about a priority of responsibility. So, I mean, if you can return to the analogy I just gave about a husband and wife having, like a husband having a special responsibility to his wife.

29:46

I mean, the way that this argument is framed is framed in such a way that like, if you're, if you as a husband don't sleep with every woman who wants, you know, who has needs or whatever, that you somehow like failing -

29:56

Not loving your neighbor. Not loving your neighbor, failing your humanitarian responsibilities or something like that. But no, I mean, like you can't take, like, that isn't the way it works, okay?

30:08

But they're human beings with souls, Tim. You have a bed, let all of them sleep in your bed, right?

30:13

It's like, well, no, but I owe my wife something special. You know, that I can't -

30:19

I sort of made these vows, you know, that I would like to uphold. Yeah, so like the issue is then you, you as an individual, you owe your immediate family certain responsibilities.

30:30

You owe your extended family certain responsibilities. You owe your church family certain responsibilities. You owe your literal, you know, geographic neighbors certain responsibilities, right?

30:40

So you are to do good to all, especially to the household of faith. The Bible teaches you to prioritize, like, how you're going to use those resources.

30:49

And so meaning, and like the way that you prioritize them is often geographical. And, you know, it's bound with, you have responsibilities to your state.

30:57

You have responsibilities to your county, to your nation, right? And so like these things go out and then you have responsibilities to the nations at the end, right?

31:06

Of all that. So like the issue is like you, it's not just that, like if you were to try to take care of everyone in the world, you can't.

31:15

It's just that simple. I don't know how to explain this any simpler. You know, you take 10, like if you have $10 ,000 in your bank, if you have $10 ,000 in your bank and you convert it all to pennies, then, you know, like at the end of it, you know, you may be,

31:34

I guess you times that by a hundred and you get a million pennies or whatever else. So like the issue is you take your million pennies and you give them to individuals.

31:43

And I mean, you only have enough pennies for 1 million people, but there's like how many billion people on the planet right now?

31:49

7 billion people on the planet. I think we're up to eight. We're up to eight. So, I mean, like the issue is you, like no one cares about a penny.

31:59

Yeah. Well, who did you really help? You didn't help anyone. It's like, so in the name of trying to help everyone, you help no one, right?

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Whereas you can actually take that money and you can make a practical difference in certain people's lives, right?

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Like, and so like the issue is you, everyone doesn't have unlimited resources. You can't take on the responsibility to provide for everyone.

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You have to figure out how you're going to balance these certain things. And so you obviously, you know, there is a sojourner component in that, but then that's why it's only the corner of the field.

32:30

Right. Yeah. Like it's not, that's all it is, right? And there's limits on it.

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And those limits are reasonable. And, you know, a righteous man will give an inheritance to his children's children. So like the issue is like, do you have responsibilities?

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You can't do everything. So just out of control, you know, immigration, particularly when it's mixed with socialist policies, it's just a recipe for disaster.

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And so that's kind of the situation we're in right now. Okay. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation.

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And, you know, obviously like we said at the beginning, this is a hot button issue to be talking about right now.

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And I think with good reason, just because it seems like there's a lot of just total and utter foolishness, a lot of just blatant manipulation coming from a lot of people who

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I think probably have ill intentions with all of it. I don't, I'm not really convinced that very many of them actually care about the people that they claim to be caring about, at least in the way that they claim to be caring about those people.

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I think they view them as more of a means to an end more than anything else.

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And so it's good for us to think through this and think about how do we appropriately balance the responsibilities we have to our families, to our church families, to our fellow citizens, to the widow, to the orphan and to the sojourner as well.

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Obviously we don't wanna lose sight of the fact that we do have some sort of command to try and meet the needs of those who are in need around us.

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So we don't wanna lose sight of that. But at the same time, we don't want to give way to it so much that we neglect all of the other things and all the other people that we have responsibilities to.

34:30

So this is a good conversation to help us think through that. I appreciate that, Tim. Thank you for answering all my questions.

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And we thank you guys as well for supporting us week in and week out, for listening to the podcast, for interacting with us on social media, whether it's the polls or the memes, posting the

34:48

Bible verses to hopefully help encourage you guys. We appreciate all that interaction and we appreciate getting to hear back from you guys and hear the ways in which these conversations are helping you think through some issues that, sometimes people say, hey,

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I've never even thought of that issue before. I'm glad you brought it up. And that's a big reason why we're doing this to begin with.

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So we're thankful that God has been able to use this in certain ways to encourage you guys. And we appreciate everything that y 'all do to support us.

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35:34

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Facebook, Twitter, all of that good stuff. And until the next episode, we'll see you. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

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