March 21, 2017 Show with Carl Trueman on “Martin Luther: Theologian of the Cross” PLUS Mark Chanski on “Stare Your Worst Fears Right in the Eye”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday, I'm sorry,

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Tuesday on this, what day is today?

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21st day of March 2017 and I'm in studio with my co -host

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Reverend Buzz Taylor. A good thing too, I got to make sure you get the date right. That's right and we have a packed show today.

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The second hour later on from 5 to 6 p .m. Eastern time, we're going to be joined by Mark Chansky, pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan and teacher of hermeneutics for the

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Reform Baptist Seminary in Easley, South Carolina. We're going to be discussing the theme,

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Stare Your Worst Fears Right in the Eye. That will be the second hour but I'm so delighted for the first hour that we have returning to the program

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Dr. Carl Truman who holds the Paul Woolley chair of church history and is professor of church history at Westminster Theological Seminary.

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He has written more than a dozen books, is currently co -editing with Bruce Gordon the

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Oxford Handbook of Calvin and Calvinism which is due this year. He writes online regularly at firstthings .com.

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He's an ordained minister in the orthodox presbyterian denomination and he is the pastor of Cornerstone Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Ambler, Pennsylvania and he co -hosts the podcast

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Mortification of Spin and this website had 2 .5

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million users last year and that's very impressive and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr.

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Carl Truman. It's great to be here, thanks for having me on. It's my pleasure and we are going to be discussing today with Dr.

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Truman, Martin Luther, theologian of the cross and we are also going to be promoting two events where Dr.

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Truman is speaking. First he's going to be at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology and that will be

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April 28th through the 30th at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania and God willing

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I will be there as well with an exhibition booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and then following that another event where I plan to be,

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God willing, is the Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat at Harvey Cedars, New Jersey which is on Long Beach Island in New Jersey and that's going to be

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May 15th through the 17th. But Dr. Truman, we are, by the graciousness and generosity of Crossway, we're giving away some copies of Reformation Theology, a systematic summary.

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Tell us about your participation in that book because there are quite a number of contributors to that book.

04:09

Yeah, well my article which I co -authored with my teaching assistant Lady Gulunjin Kim is really a survey of Reformation history so we're helping to set the historical framework for the more theological section that Matthew Barrett commissioned.

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So we're not doing anything particularly spectacular, we're just providing a good survey chronological framework so that when people read the book they'll have some historical orientation to what's going on.

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Well I'm pretty sure that it will be spectacular if you have any involvement in it. Well, it remains to be seen.

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And you are going to be speaking at the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology on the theme,

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Martin Luther, Theologian of the Cross. I understand that although you are a

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Calvinist, you are an Orthodox Presbyterian after all, and all Orthodox Presbyterians are thoroughgoing

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Calvinists, but it seems that Martin Luther is actually a figure from church history that seems to be nearer and dearer to your heart than John Calvin is.

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Yeah, it's possible I guess. I first came across Luther when I first became a

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Christian. I read Roland Bainton's still wonderful little biography, Here I Stand, and the story of Luther is one that could come straight out of Hollywood.

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It captures the imagination. And then later on when I was doing my PhD, I started to read more in depth

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Luther's works and about Luther. Part of my PhD was looking at Luther and discovered he was really both a very engaging human being and also a theologian with some fascinating insights that I've actually found very helpful both as an individual

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Christian and as a pastor. So Luther has been a constant dialogue partner for me throughout my

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Christian life really. And Theologian of the Cross is the subtitle of your speaking theme,

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Martin Luther Theologian of the Cross. Tell us exactly what you mean by that as far as a focus on Luther's theology and doctrine.

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You know, the Theologian of the Cross is a very important concept to Luther. In 1518, after he's nailed the 95

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Theses, the end of 1517, but before he's really got into serious trouble, he travels to Heidelberg for a meeting, a regular meeting of the

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Augustinian Order of Monks to which he belongs. It's basically a business administrative meeting really.

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But while he's there, he presides over a debate where he has drafted a series of theses for debate or dispute.

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And at the heart of these theses, he makes this distinction between what he calls a

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Theologian of Glory and a Theologian of the Cross. To put it simply, we might say that a

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Theologian of Glory assumes that God is like himself, only much bigger and more perfect.

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So the logic with which you and I might think and operate, for example, I want you to like me, what am

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I going to do? I'm going to do nice things for you in order to make you like me. The Theologian of Glory assumes that God is like him and things like that, and therefore has this image of God where God can be pleased with our works.

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Whereas in contrast to that, Luther points to what he calls the Theologian of the Cross. And the

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Theologian of the Cross is not the one who, if you like, looks at the world around and assumes God is like that.

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The Theologian of the Cross is the one who looks to where God has revealed himself to be in order to understand who

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God is towards us. And for Luther, that takes place supremely on the cross, where the crucified

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Christ, the crucified human nature of Christ, united to the divine, reveals to us how

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God has chosen to be towards us. And for Luther, this turns everything on its head when we, for example, when a

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Theologian of Glory thinks about God's power, Theologian of Glory will look at the world around and perhaps look at the most powerful person he knows, say that the king or today the president of the

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United States, and assumes that God's power is like that, only much bigger. It's coercive.

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It's power that allows you to cajole and control people. As Luther would say, a

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Theologian of the Cross looks to the cross to see what power looks like. And God's power on the cross is hidden under weakness.

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So for Luther, the Theologian of the Cross is the one who really has to turn everything on its head, crucify his own expectations about God and accept

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God for who he has revealed himself to be in the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. When you say one of the reasons why the cross is such a focal theme as we celebrate the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation, in that Rome really diminishes the glory and power and accomplishment of Christ on Calvary.

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They basically, even though they perhaps would not verbalize it quite this honestly, but they are really saying that what

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Christ did is insufficient and that we need to commingle what we have done and do and what the saints have done in order to be worthy of heaven.

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And it really, doesn't it rob Christ of his accomplishment and his glory on the cross?

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I think there's certainly an element of that. I mean, I would see two things, I would have two major criticisms of Roman Catholic theology on that point.

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One would be the idea of the mass as a kind of, at best, a reapplication of the one propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross, which

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I would regard as derogating from the absolute finality of the moment on Calvary.

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And the other thing is, certainly Luther's understanding of justification is we are justified by what he would say is the alien righteousness of Christ, Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

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Whereas I think in Roman Catholicism they would argue for, I think they would still want to say we're justified by Christ's righteousness, but Christ's righteousness imparted to us.

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And that, of course, I think creates confusion then between what is our righteousness and what

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Christ's righteousness is. We do have a listener in Runnels, Iowa named

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Chris. And Chris says, thank you for having Dr. Truman on to discuss this topic.

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I believe I have read that Martin Luther's main discussion of the theology of the cross occurred shortly after the 95

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Theses in 1517. I have also heard from multiple sources that Luther himself places his conversion to saving faith in or about 1519.

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According to Dr. Truman's research, is this information accurate? And did

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Luther develop his theology of the cross further after his conversion? Thank you again for covering this topic.

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Thank you, Dr. Truman, for the blessing you have been and continue to be to Christ's church. Thank you,

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Chris, for making Iron Trepans Iron a joy to listen to. Well, you already answered half of his question.

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Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, it's certainly absolutely correct that Luther's major exposition of the theology of the cross or theologian of the cross, theologian of the glory idea occurs in April 1518.

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So you'll find that theme developed continually in his later work. Now, the listener has raised a very interesting and tricky question or a tricky question that has a number of tricky aspects to it.

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First of all, I think what the listener is referring to is Luther's account given in 1545 of how he came to his understanding of the righteousness of God being found in the gospel.

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The problem with that passage is that the chronology doesn't really make sense.

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We know that Luther got a few things wrong and you can understand the man remembering something or recalling something nearly 30 years later, particularly 30 pretty exciting years later, is going to make some mistakes and errors in his chronology.

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So scholars debate when Luther made this breakthrough on Romans 117, some dated as early as 1515, 1516, some dated as late as 1520, 1521.

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If I had to put a date on it, I'd probably go earlier rather than later. The next tricky part of that question is, is that Luther's conversion?

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And if Luther was on the program today and we were said to Luther, when were you converted?

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I think Luther would say, when I was baptized. This is one of the things

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I think a lot of modern Protestant evangelicals, we struggle most with, that Luther doesn't really think in terms of himself being converted at a particular point in time.

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When the devil comes and tempts him, he says, you cannot have me, I've been baptized. A very high view of baptism is that which first gave him

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Christ and brought him into the church. So the other tricky side of the question is the very concept of conversion is one that I think

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Luther would not have been, I wouldn't say wouldn't have been comfortable with, but would not have been particularly familiar with for him.

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He became a Christian when he was baptized and he swung back and forth in terms of his

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Christian faithfulness, like a pendulum one might say. But that was the moment when he came to faith, when he's describing what happened in, say, sometimes in 1515 and 1520 relative to Romans 117.

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He's really describing a breakthrough he makes in understanding Scripture that profoundly reassures his soul.

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Whether it was a conversion or not, in the modern sense, we will only find out when we meet him in glory,

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I think. Well, thank you, Chris in Runnels, Iowa, and you have won, excuse me?

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That was a great question, thanks for asking it. Yes, it was. And Chris in Runnels, Iowa, you have won a free copy of the book that we are giving away,

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Compliments of Crossway, Reformation Theology, A Systematic Summary, which has many contributors to it, including our guest,

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Dr. Carl R. Truman. And so please give us your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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that's cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com. We have

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Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, how can you harmonize

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Martin Luther's belief in baptismal regeneration with his staunch belief in justification by faith alone?

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Yeah, that's a good question too, and I guess that's the obvious follow -up to the answer

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I've just given. I think to describe Luther's believing in baptismal regeneration is probably to describe too much to what he himself thought, because we tend to think then, often when we hear the words baptismal regeneration, we often tend to think in Roman Catholic categories of sin being blotted out, original sin being tamped down, that kind of thing.

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I don't think Luther believes in baptismal regeneration that way. What Luther would say is that Christ is first offered to us at baptism because the water is attached to the proclaimed promise.

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When the water is applied to the child, the word is also proclaimed, and Christ is objectively present therefore in baptism.

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Baptism in and of itself, though, doesn't save. It's grasping that faith, grasping that word by faith.

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Christ is objectively present and offered there, but it's the same when the word is preached. When I preach on a

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Sunday, I believe that Christ is objectively offered to the people in the congregation, but they got to believe that word in order to be saved.

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Now, I think Luther has a high view of a baby's ability to somehow, by the

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Holy Spirit, grasp the word attached to baptism, or at times he will regard the sponsors, we might say the godparents in an

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Anglican context, the godparents as believing vicariously on behalf of the baby.

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I think Luther would repudiate the idea of baptismal regeneration. When he's tempted by the devil and says, you know, look, you cannot have me,

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I've been baptized, that's sort of shorthand for him saying, look, you cannot have me. I've been baptized, and in baptism,

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Christ was objectively offered to me, and I grasp that Christ was objectively offered to me by faith, and therefore you cannot have me.

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It's, you know, having explained it, though, I have to say I don't agree with Luther on this position.

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I'm a covenant infant baptism person, which is not Luther's position, but I think what

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I've given is, I hope that if he was on the program today he would say that was a fair account of his view.

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Well, thank you very much, Ronald, and you have also received a free copy of the book that we are giving away today, a compliment of our friends at Crossway.

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That's Reformation Theology, a systematic summary, and God willing you'll be getting that within a couple of weeks from our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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We have Salvatore in Nassau County, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, how close do you think

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Martin Luther was before his legacy became more

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Arminianized in later centuries? How close do you think Luther himself was to the theology of John Calvin, who came after him, in regard especially to total depravity, unconditional election, and limited atonement and perseverance of the saints?

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Yeah, that's an interesting, again, an interesting question. I think we'd have to divide that up into sort of various slices.

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First of all, I think both Luther and Calvin stand within an ongoing tradition of teaching, which goes back to Augustine, and as far as I'm concerned goes back to the

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Apostle Paul, on the bondage of the human will to sin and the requirements of unilateral action on God's part in order to bring people into his kingdom, to unite them to Christ by faith, by the

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Holy Spirit. If you look at Luther's work of 1525, the bondage of the will, it's very clear.

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I don't think that Calvin would find much, if anything, to disagree with in that text.

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Both of them certainly stand within that broad Augustinian predestinarian tradition.

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Now, it has been noted by some scholars that Luther emphasizes predestination somewhat less in his writings, and some have argued that this indicates that he might have gone too far in 1525.

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I don't subscribe to that view myself. I think, you know, once you've written the bondage of the will once, you don't need to write it again.

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I think Luther had said all that he needed to say on the issue pretty much in 1525.

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On the issue of perseverance of the saints, there I think Luther may well differ a little with Calvin.

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Perseverance doesn't seem to be such a strong emphasis in Luther. He places more of an emphasis upon the existential need for faith in the here and now.

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So, I think perseverance is a carefully articulated doctrine. You would not find it so clearly laid out in Luther, as indeed you wouldn't find it so clearly laid out in Augustine.

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The third question, limited atonement, again, that's a tricky question because there's a big debate about whether Calvin held to limited atonement.

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I'll give you my take on this. I think limited atonement, as we have it, is developed in its elaborate forms really in the 17th century, and there are a number of nuances even within the

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Reformed tradition on limited atonement, all of which I think can be fitted within the great

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Reformed confessions. It's not really a question that Luther was asking.

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I think to go back to Luther and say, did he believe in limited atonement, is to ask him a question that really arises in that sharpened form in the later 16th century.

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So, it's somewhat unfair to ask Luther to answer that in the form that we find it later.

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Having said that, I think the key thing for Luther is the bondage of the will. I would say,

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I don't go to Luther particularly to find great help on elaborate understanding of atonement.

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Where I would go to him is on predestination and the bondage of the will. So, I hope that is an answer to the question.

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It's kind of saying, I'm not sure we can give an answer to that question, but I'm not sure it's that much of a problem anyway, because Luther, that's not what we go to Luther for typically.

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Now, yeah, it seems that he must have been quite inconsistent because for him to write as he did in his debate with Erasmus in the bondage of the will, it seems that all the other views that Calvin had would naturally flow from that.

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Yes, you would think that, you would think that. Now, according to your comments before, although you believe that the full -blown concept of limited atonement or particular redemption or definite atonement was not formalized until the 17th century, do you believe that Calvin believed that Christ's death was intentionally and purposefully to redeem his elect alone and that his death was not for the world, or do you believe that he had more of a universal understanding of the atonement?

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I think Calvin believed that, I think I would want to rephrase the question in some ways and not talk about limited atonement, because that automatically brings in, gets people's backs up about limitations.

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I think I'd want to argue that Calvin believed in effectual atonement, that the atonement actually accomplished what it was meant to accomplish, that it didn't leave anything else necessary afterwards, and one of the implications of that, of course, is that the atonement is limited, but I prefer effectual atonement,

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I think, as a more accurate way of characterizing Calvin. Yeah, so in other words, since he was not a universalist, he obviously must have believed that Christ's death was specifically to accomplish the redemption of...

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I do not believe that Calvin was a hypothetical universalist. Right. It would be sort of a negative way of putting that.

23:55

Right. Well, we're going to go away, our first break today, it's going to be very brief. If you have any questions of your own for Dr.

24:02

Truman, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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We do have several of you already waiting to have your questions asked and answered, and we'll get to you as soon as we can when we return from the break.

24:17

Don't go away, we'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Carl Truman and more of Martin Luther, theologian of the cross.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

29:01

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and that was the voice of a mutual friend of Dr. Carl Truman and mine,

29:06

Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York.

29:12

He's actually retired from that pastoral ministry now and is running an apologetic ministry called

29:19

Reformation Metro New York, and he is host of that program that I strongly urge you to listen to.

29:25

That's A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on www .wlie540am

29:33

.com. And by the way, Salvatore in Nassau County, Long Island, since you're a first time questioner, you're not only going to get a free copy of the book that we have been addressing, a

29:47

Reformation Theology, a systematic summary that Dr. Carl Truman has contributed to, but you're also getting a free

29:54

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, so please give us your mailing address and we'll have that shipped out, those items shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

30:11

And we have, let's see here, we have another listener, we have

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Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, and he starts off with something that I think must be an inside joke between you and he,

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Dr. Truman, because he says, Mr. Arnzen, please tell Carl Truman how much of a fan

30:33

I am of his, and I know he loves hearing that. I love him already.

30:43

And he says, serious question for Pastor Truman, I hear a lot about Martin Luther's life and people he influenced, but I don't believe

30:54

I've heard someone mention Luther's thoughts on Reformers prior to him, such as John Hus or Jan Hus or John Wycliffe, etc.

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Could Dr. Truman please elaborate on how these men influenced Luther's theology? Yeah, that's a very good question.

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I think the key man here is John Hus, and Hus features in the

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Luther story at a couple of points. One, in April 1519,

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Luther is debating a man called John Eck at the University of Leipzig, they're debating the

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Wittenberg, the Reformation theology, and Eck is a very clever debater, and he draws

31:37

Luther into a position where Luther really makes a strategic error in the debate, in that he declares,

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Eck basically says to Luther at some point, you're sounding like John Hus, and Luther's response, and Hus was condemned at the

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Council of Constance, and Luther's response effectively, yeah, but the Council of Constance condemned many views of Hus.

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They're actually perfectly consistent with Augustine, and also with the Bible, which allows

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Eck to play his trump card, which is effectively, okay, Luther, so you're saying the

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Pope got it wrong, now you're saying the Church Council's got it wrong, are you telling me that you're the only person who's got this right?

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That's a pretty powerful move in 1519, when these are men who really do want to stand within established

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Church tradition, so Hus, Luther is certainly aware of Hus at that point, and is happy to identify with him.

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The other side of it is that the Bohemians who witness Luther at that point are very impressed with him.

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He soon becomes called the Saxon Hus, so there are those in his own day and age who certainly see a precedent in Hus for Luther, and perhaps most interesting of all is that there was a legend that Hus, as he was being burned, declared that, so today you burn a goose, and I believe that the

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Czech word for a goose is hus, today you burn a goose, but a hundred years from now a swan will arrive to take my place, and Luther rather fancied himself as the fulfillment of that prophecy, and if you go to Lutheran churches today, quite often the lectern, the stand from which the

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Bible will be read, is in the shape of a swan, and this is a reference to the prophecy of Hus, and to Luther's claiming of himself as the fulfillment of that prophecy.

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The extent to which Hus and Wycliffe's writings influenced Luther in terms of their content,

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I think not so much. Luther is really very, you know, he's a man of the early 16th century, he has access to the

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Greek text of the New Testament, he has access to complete sets of patristic authors like Augustine, so there is a sense in which the intellectual depth of these men is far less than perhaps it might have been 50 years earlier, because Luther has access to more and better tools for doing what he's doing, but certainly

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Hus in particular was an inspirational figure, and Luther, of course, was well aware when he went to the various imperial councils, it was called particularly the

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Diet of Worms, he was well aware that the record of men like him going to these councils and coming away alive was not, was not a particularly encouraging one, and that's one reason

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I think why Frederick the Wise, Luther's prince and protector, arranged for Luther effectively to be kidnapped after the

34:53

Diet of Worms to keep him safe, lest he fall into the church or empire and pay the ultimate penalty.

35:00

Well thank you Seth, and you have also won a free copy of Reformation Theology, a systematic summary that our guest

35:10

Dr. Carl Truman contributed to, thanks to our friends at Crossway and also thanks to our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, so please make sure we have your full mailing address and we'll have that shipped out to you by our friends at CVBBS, God willing, within the next couple of weeks.

35:28

We have Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, who says, from what

35:34

I understand one of Luther's big discoveries in coming to know the gospel was his interpreting the phrase, the righteousness of God, found in Romans 1 verses 17.

35:47

To refer to the righteousness that God offers to us in the gospel rather than the righteousness that God commands, that God demands in the gospel.

35:58

In light of this belief, what might Luther say to the proponents of the so -called new perspective on Paul, who tend to interpret the phrase the righteousness of God as the righteousness that God possesses rather than the righteousness that God gives?

36:14

Well clearly Luther would not be in agreement with that, and to a large extent the new perspective on Paul has defined itself over against what it sees as the

36:26

Lutheran paradigm of justification. I think there's some debate as to whether their objections are to Luther or to later

36:35

Lutherans, but by and large Luther would not be on board with what

36:41

I understand to be the new perspective position. For Luther, righteousness is closely identified with that which

36:48

God gives us in Christ and therefore closely connected to his understanding of justification and imputation.

36:56

And certainly it's many years since I read N .T. Wright on this, but I seem to remember that N .T.

37:02

Wright, one of the major proponents of the new perspective, would have little time for imputation as a category in justification.

37:10

I hope I'm not misrepresenting there because I'm drawing on memories from way back, but I think

37:16

Luther is a bogeyman for the new perspective guys, particularly on that point of righteousness as it connects to justification.

37:25

My co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor, has something to say. I really don't want to get too far away from Luther, and so I hope there's other questioners that are going to bring us right back on the subject.

37:35

But before our hour ends, I do want to hear if you have anything to tell us about this upcoming handbook that you're writing.

37:44

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, tell us something about it.

37:51

Just tell us a little bit about it. Well, first of all, let me just tell Jerry in Charlestown, New Hampshire, that he has also won a copy of the book that we are giving away,

38:03

Reformation Theology, a Systematic Summary. But okay, go ahead Dr. Triven, I'm sorry. Well, it's a project

38:08

I'm doing with my friend Bruce Gordon, who's a professor of church history at Yale Divinity School.

38:14

It's not often that you get a Westminster professor and a Yale Divinity School professor working together, but Bruce is probably my oldest scholarly friend.

38:23

We met in the late 80s when we were both doing PhDs in Scotland, and Bruce has gone on to become,

38:29

I think, one of the preeminent Calvin scholars in the English -speaking world. And we're putting together this book, which a significant number of the contributors are junior scholars.

38:41

We wanted to make this a project that did for younger scholars what older scholars had done for us 20 years ago, and that's give younger scholars a break, an opportunity to be involved in a big project.

38:53

It's not going to be a standard introduction to Calvin and Calvinism in terms of we're not doing a lot of the usual Calvin on predestination.

39:02

So, for example, my essay, I'm looking at the portrayal of Calvinists and Presbyterians in some of the novels of Sir Walter Scott.

39:12

I want to look at the portrayal of Calvinism in Scottish literary culture. So we're trying to make it not just another book on Calvin covering the usual topics, but a broader ranging book that introduces some new scholarly names into the

39:28

Reformation history world, and also looks at Calvinism, Calvin and Calvinism, as much for their social and cultural significance as for their theological significance.

39:40

And closely related to this, as a professor of church history, is there any one book that you think stands out above the others that would be good reading to get a good grasp of the total of church history?

39:55

That's a difficult question. I think one of the finest books to come out in recent years is

40:01

Dermot McCulloch's Christianity, the First Three Thousand Years. Professor McCulloch's not,

40:07

I think he would describe himself as an agnostic now. He was a high Anglican, but I believe he would now describe himself as an agnostic.

40:14

But he's a very, very good historian, and that book, it's a scholarly but accessible book.

40:20

I think for many, for Christians, you know, who don't have a lot of time, don't want to read 1 ,200 dense scholarly pages, for Christians who don't have a lot of time but want to get a good grasp of the sweep of church history,

40:34

I would recommend Robert Louis Wilkins' book, Christianity, the

40:39

First Thousand Years, which is available.

40:45

It's a fairly small book. And the other series I recommend, I think there are four volumes now, is

40:51

Nick Needham's, Nicholas Needham's Two Thousand Years of Christ's Power.

40:57

Nick Needham is a Reformed Baptist. He's a good scholar. And I think for somebody wanting to buy books that I would describe as a very easy reading but very thoughtful and learned as well,

41:12

Nick Needham's Two Thousand Years of Christ's Power would probably be the place to go. Christian Focus published them.

41:19

He'd actually be a great guy to have on your program, I think. Well, I will definitely look him up. Well, Chris, you better bring us back to Luther now.

41:26

Well, bring us wherever the listeners bring us. By the way, it's interesting that you mentioned that historian who is an agnostic,

41:35

Roland Baten was not a Christian, and he wrote one of the greatest biographies of Luther that's in print, right?

41:42

Yeah, Roland Baten was interesting. He was a Unitarian. He was a pretty radical sort of guy. I think what makes

41:48

Baten the perfect man to write that book, though, is this. Baten was a rebel and an outsider.

41:55

I think he was a conscientious objector in the Second World War, I think. So Baten was a man who knew what it was like to be living on the edge a bit and to be, you know, taking risks and to be despised by the establishment of his day.

42:08

I think that gives him a peculiar sympathy with Luther, who was pretty much in exactly the same position in his day, even though there are huge theological differences between them.

42:18

Baten writes with a, you might describe it, a psychological sympathy for Luther that is very rare in biographers in general.

42:28

Well, we have now the last of the winners of the books that we are giving away today,

42:36

Reformation Theology and Systematic Summary.

42:42

This listener is located in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and this is the first time he is contributing a question to the program.

42:52

Ken in Tulsa, Oklahoma writes, please ask Professor Truman to give my regards to Professor Verne Poythress.

43:00

We now have our book on the Grand Canyon published. His question is, which of the 95 theses were most explosive that got

43:11

Luther into hot water with the Catholic Church? And he has a follow -up question after you answer that one. Yeah, that's a difficult one to answer, because in some ways it was not so much the 95 theses themselves that caused the real stir as the explanations that Luther provided, the explanation of the 95 theses, that was the bombshell work in some ways.

43:33

There are lots in there that you could see as causing trouble. Clearly, the apparent references to Tetzel's profane sales pitches, every time a coin in the coffer rings a soul from Purgatory Springs, or if you violated the

43:49

Virgin Mary, one of my indulgences will be enough to sort of square it away.

43:55

Clearly, those grabbed the imagination. I think the most powerful in some ways, though, theologically, is the very first one.

44:05

When our Lord Jesus Christ said, repent, he meant that the whole of life was to be one of repentance.

44:13

There's a sense in which there you get the early core of Luther's gospel, that the

44:19

Christian life is not to be characterized by doing penance, by saying

44:25

Hail Marys, or crawling on your hands and knees up flights of steps in Rome. The Christian life is to be characterized by a constant turning away from self and towards God, a dying for self and rising to newness of life in Christ.

44:40

So I think that first one is theologically the most explosive. In many ways, the issue is captured in a nutshell right there.

44:49

His second, Ken's second question is, Chris, when will we of solid rock lectures be able to be on the air?

45:04

Oh, I guess he's asking me this question. Yes, I have no idea about that one.

45:09

Yes, that we are waiting for a young earth creationist who is supposed to be following his interview or his geologist's interview.

45:23

We're having a young earth geologist question. We're having a young earth geologist interview the day following that one, and we're in the process of trying to arrange that.

45:34

But Ken, if you could give us your mailing address, we will send you a free copy of the book that we've been giving away.

45:44

This is the last copy that we have of the book that has been given to us by our friends over at Crossway, Reformation Theology, A Systematic Summary.

45:57

So if you give us your full mailing address, we'll send that out to you and we'll also send you a free New American Standard Bible.

46:04

Let's see, we have Joe in Slovenia.

46:13

And Joe in Slovenia, I have to enlarge his email because the text is microscopic, so I'm enlarging that right now.

46:23

And Joe in Slovenia says, Dear Brother Chris, I've just begun reading On the

46:28

Freedom of the Christian. I was pleasantly struck by Luther's summation of Pauline doctrine on freedom and duty when he wrote,

46:37

A Christian man is the most free Lord of all and subject to none. A Christian man is the most dutiful servant of all and subject to everyone.

46:47

What needs to happen in the churches for this summary and the way he fleshed out the statement in the rest of the book to become prominent again as a major guiding principle of evangelicalism?

46:59

Yes, good question. I think the foundation for that has to be clear preaching of the gospel.

47:08

I think what Luther is writing about there emerges from or is based upon his understanding of the work of Christ and therefore, as with all things in the church,

47:19

I think the pulpit is where the revolution or the reformation has to start. So in order to understand

47:27

Christian freedom correctly, in order to understand Christian ethics correctly, because the freedom of the

47:32

Christian man is an ethical treatise in many ways, Luther is recasting Christian ethics in light of his reformation insights.

47:40

I think the preaching from the pulpit has to be clear gospel preaching.

47:47

And then I think that has to be followed up when you read The Freedom of the Christian Man. Luther is clearly envisaging the church as a community where we are free and delighted to serve our brothers and sisters and neighbors in Christ.

48:03

So I think the next stage after making sure that the preaching of the gospel is making sure that that gospel is working out in people's lives, that people are learning what it means to be saved in Christ and learning what that means practically in the way they then relate to both fellow believers and indeed to their non -Christian neighbors and friends.

48:26

And Joe in Slovenia has a follow -up question. Please ask

48:31

Dr. Truman to explain from his perspective, specifically how and when evangelicalism generally in the

48:38

USA lost the theology of the cross and adopted the victorious Christian life theology.

48:44

What were the leaders, events, circumstances that led to large portions of evangelicalism going off into a theology of personal victory, power, overcoming, etc.,

48:56

in opposition to taking up our cross and dying daily? Thank you sincerely for focusing on the cross.

49:03

Wow, that is of course an absolutely huge question. The heart of it lies, you know, how one would exactly define evangelicalism.

49:14

I think one could make the case for saying, if Luther is a small evangelical, one who holds to the gospel,

49:21

I think one could look in the United States and say there have always been small evangelical groups that have held to, faithfully to the

49:29

Reformation position. Many of the Lutheran denominations, for example, have always had a high view of the theology of the cross.

49:36

If we're looking at the movement that really stems from the 18th century revivals, then certainly a figure like Charles Finney in the 19th century, with his rather Pelagian understanding of human nature, his rather pragmatic approach to how one should do church, is extremely important.

49:57

I think of a later stage, certain strands of Pentecostalism, with their emphasis upon power, and not power reflected through the cross, but power manifested in miracles, in healing, and then in prosperity, would also have to take a share of the blame.

50:17

I think a general tendency in American culture to, and these are good things in many ways, to place a lot of emphasis upon individual effort, individual achievement, on prosperity.

50:31

These are good things in and of themselves, but I think clearly at some point, perhaps in the middle of the 20th century, the

50:40

American way and the Christian way became closely identified in a way that the latter, the

50:49

Christian way, was somehow subsumed and absorbed by an uncritical adherence to the central values of Middle America, and that's where I guess

51:00

I would probably date it. But the modern era is not really my territory, so that's a very broad -stroke guess at what's happened.

51:10

Well, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to Martin Luther, theologian of the cross.

51:18

A couple of things. I think the power of the Word. We live in an era where it's very easy to get discouraged, particularly in the

51:25

West, the Church seems to be in decline. Let us not forget that the Word is powerful, and that's one of the things that comes through again and again in Luther's writings.

51:34

Secondly, the all -sufficiency of Christ, that it doesn't matter what the world, the flesh, and the devil throw at us.

51:42

We have a Savior who's defeated all three of them, so the all -powerful and all -sufficient Christ is critical.

51:49

And thirdly, I think the cross, that we should not be discouraged by outward contradiction, by pain, by suffering, whatever form it may come to us, because the cross is the great demonstration that the

52:02

Lord takes such things and subverts them to his greater purpose and his greater glory.

52:08

So those would be the three things I would pull at. Well, I want to remind our listeners about the two events that Dr.

52:16

Truman will be speaking at coming up in the very near future. First, we have from April 28th through the 30th, he is going to be at the

52:26

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. That is going to be held at the

52:32

Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. And then following that, he is going to be at the

52:40

Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat, May 15th through the 17th, at Harvey Seder's Bible Conference, which is on Long Beach Island in New Jersey.

52:50

That's May 15th through the 17th. And for information on both of those events, go to AllianceNet .org,

53:00

AllianceNet .org, and click on the Events tab at the top of the page.

53:06

And don't forget about the Mortification of Spin podcast that he co -hosts, and you can find out more about that podcast also at AllianceNet .org,

53:18

AllianceNet .org, and that's the Mortification of Spin. And why don't you tell us a little bit more about that program,

53:26

Dr. Truman? Yeah, it's a podcast I do with two friends, Todd Pruitt, who's a PCA pastor in Virginia, and Amy Bird, who's actually a member of the

53:35

OPC and has written a number of books on women and theology. We have a variety of guests on and cover a variety of topics that we hope will be useful to people in the pew.

53:48

It comes out each Wednesday. It's available on iTunes. We have a broad range of guests. We try to get the most interesting and the best people on any particular topic, so it's not just Protestant evangelicals, even, that we have on.

54:02

What we're trying to do is help stimulate Christians to think constructively about many of the issues that matter in the

54:09

Church and the wider world today. Well, make sure you go to AllianceNet .org for more information. Dr.

54:14

Carl Truman, it has been such an honor and privilege to have you on the program today, and I eagerly look forward to having you back on very soon, and as often as the

54:23

Lord enables you to be on this program. You always have an open door here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

54:29

Oh, thanks very much. It's been great to be with you. God bless you, brother. You too. Bye. Bye -bye now.

54:35

And coming up, don't go away, because the second hour of the program, we are going to be featuring our second guest,

54:43

Pastor Mark Chansky, who is pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church in Holland, Michigan, a teacher of hermeneutics for the

54:51

Reform Baptist Seminary in Easley, South Carolina, and we are going to be discussing the theme,

54:57

Stare Your Worst Fears Right in the Eye, so don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors, and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions.

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01:01:52

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our second guest today is

01:01:58

Mark Chansky, pastor of Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, teacher of hermeneutics for the

01:02:04

Reform Baptist Seminary in Easley, South Carolina, and we are going to be discussing

01:02:09

Stare Your Worst Fears Right in the Eye. If you have questions for Pastor Mark, email us at chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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01:04:29

We would love to hear from you soon. Now as I was saying, Pastor Mark Chansky is our second guest today and we are going to be discussing

01:04:36

Stare, Your Worst Fears, right in the eye for the following hour and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Mark Chansky.

01:04:45

Chris, thanks for having me again. I appreciate the ministry there at Iron Sharpens Iron, appreciate the way that you, in a refreshing way, you handle current topics from a biblical perspective.

01:04:57

Well done, Chris. Well I really appreciate that very much and let me introduce you to my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor, who's in studio with me.

01:05:05

Buzz, good to have you. He's got my mic down again. Hello, how are you doing? Good, doing well. That's great.

01:05:11

Well, before we go into the topic at hand, why don't you tell our listeners something about Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan.

01:05:18

Oh, Harbor Reform Baptist Church. We're in our 22nd year here. About 1993, we planted a church out here.

01:05:28

We brought people from what is now Grace Emanuel Reform Baptist Church in Grand Rapids. Brought about 12 families out here to the lake shore.

01:05:36

Holland, Michigan, about 45 minutes away from the Grand Rapids Church and the Lord has richly blessed us here for 22 years.

01:05:45

He's established us. He gave us a delightful building worth, oh, it was about $2 million and we paid $150 ,000 for it in 1997 and just an indication of God has really brought his sovereign help to us and we're thankful for his sustaining grace out here in Holland.

01:06:06

Praise God. And God willing, I would love to visit that congregation sometime if the

01:06:12

Lord brings me out to Michigan and I am confident with all the Calvinists out there that he will eventually bring me there for some reason.

01:06:21

An open invitation for you, Chris, to come on out. I think that Michigan is the mecca of Calvinism.

01:06:31

Well, Grand Rapids, Michigan, you've got Calvin College and yes, you do have a lot of reformed churches on many corners out here.

01:06:39

Well, this is a very important subject, I believe, today because this is a universal theme.

01:06:47

I believe every single person, whether they're honest to admit it or not, has fears that they are very frightened, apprehensive to look right in the eye, to face head on.

01:07:03

Many of us avoid those particular fears at all costs, but I believe that Psalm 46 was the catalyst to this blog article that you wrote, which is really the reason why

01:07:18

I wanted to have you discuss this today. Yeah, Chris, I think Psalm 46, I can say even dialing the clock back, go back,

01:07:26

I've got a son who's 27 years old now and when he was in the womb my wife had a test by her gynecologist and it indicated that she had a high level of protein in her blood and that made the doctor suspicious that there may have been a severe spinal defect in the child, spina bifida.

01:07:48

So my wife came home and she was full of tears and very anxious about we may have a deformed child in the womb here and she showed me some colorful pamphlets and I read and it indicated that, oh honey, only two percent of these high protein babies actually have a spinal problem.

01:08:09

So I was very statistically inclined to comfort her with the mathematics that, look, 98 percent good, but in reality two days later,

01:08:21

Chris, we were in a radiologist's office looking at an ultrasound and the technician said there's a spinal defect in this child and the truth was that our child did actually have spina bifida and if my wife would have been comforting herself in the statistics it would have been a spider's web of comfort because it didn't support at all.

01:08:47

The reality was we would have been wise to look elsewhere and I think, like you say, the psalms, I think the psalms are filled with a whole pharmacy full of healthful antidotes for the anxieties that we all feel.

01:09:02

In fact, even last night when I hadn't even decided on a topic yet to discuss with you today, but you sent something on to me and said how about facing your fears and the very time you sent that text on to me

01:09:15

I was actually in a restaurant talking with somebody about this very theme. So I'm thinking that the

01:09:21

Lord providentially converging these things together, it's probably relevant for somebody out there.

01:09:27

Yes, that's when you and I immediately after that providential occurrence, we both converted to Pentecostalism.

01:09:34

That's what you said. The reality is the

01:09:42

Spirit of God does wonderfully work in our lives. Sometimes people who are reformed can tame him and, you know, what does it say, through the gruffling grasp

01:09:52

I hear him pass. We live in an enchanted forest. It's our Father's world, isn't it? So we should be looking for his fingerprints all over.

01:10:00

Amen, amen. Well, I'm going to read Psalm 46 verses 1 to 3.

01:10:06

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change and though the mountains slip into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam, though the mountains quake at its swelling pride.

01:10:27

And what do those texts mean to you in regard to our personal confrontation with fear?

01:10:34

Well, I think what it encourages us to do is face the fear, which would be face the worst case scenario right in the eye.

01:10:45

I mean, my wife was looking at the idea of a child of ours being in a wheelchair, maybe paralyzed from the chest down, no bowel, no bladder control, possibly mental retardation.

01:11:01

I mean, that's what she was looking at. And I think what is the healthy antidote is not to say, okay, let's just sentimentally disqualify that possibility.

01:11:12

You know, your Heavenly Father would never let something like this happen, Diane. Nor do I think we should just forgetfully suppress them by saying, oh, just refuse to think about that.

01:11:24

No, I think this psalm tells us that we are to courageously face our worst fears.

01:11:30

Look at that psalm. It says, God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

01:11:36

And then he gives the worst case scenario. It's like nuclear holocaust talk when it speaks of the earth changing, the mountain slipping into the heart of the sea.

01:11:49

I mean, an earthquake, a collapse of the known world. And the psalm writer says, even if that nightmare would take place, still in the middle of that nightmare,

01:12:01

God is there with us. He's our refuge and our strength. He's a very present help in time of trouble.

01:12:09

So again, I think staring our worst fears right in the eye is the way that we should handle.

01:12:17

I think that's the best recipe, the formula for psychological stability when we're afraid of things.

01:12:24

Now, as a pastor, I'm sure that you have in counseling and in private conversations with members of your flock and just other people that know that you're a minister and want to confide in you some personal and private things.

01:12:43

What are the most commonly held fears that you could tell our listeners about?

01:12:50

I'm sure death is one of them, although many young people live like they have no fear of death.

01:12:58

And then perhaps that is something that creeps into our life at older ages, although I have met some young people in their 20s that are afraid of death, that are actually preoccupied with that fear, interestingly enough.

01:13:11

I think death is the ultimate fear, and I'd like to, as we get toward the end, really focus on that.

01:13:17

But I think that there are lifetime fears. Think of, say, someone named maybe

01:13:23

Jill, and she confides that a recent fate of layoffs at her husband's company makes her fear that he's next, and so she hasn't been sleeping well.

01:13:35

My husband's out of a job. Or maybe the mother, she's recently heard of a boy's death, a teenager at the high school, so she's terrified with the thought that her son might be next.

01:13:48

Or how about this one? Think of the woman in her mid -20s, and she's consumed with fears that she'll never marry.

01:13:56

And I've had that. That girl, that woman sitting in my office, you know, we can be so inclined to say, oh, you've got a wonderful personality, you are a very pleasant -looking person, and God is certainly going to bring someone into your life.

01:14:16

But you know what, Chris? How do I know that? That's not necessarily the case.

01:14:21

And I think it is a wholesome thing for such a woman to be able to, we could say, imagine herself being 50 years old on a

01:14:31

Christmas Eve at her apartment, all by herself, with just a

01:14:36

Christmas tree. She doesn't have a husband. She doesn't have children. She doesn't have grandchildren. But you know, the reality is, like it says in that psalm,

01:14:45

God is a refuge and a strength, a very present help in time of trouble. In that apartment, let's say the girl's name is

01:14:52

Sherry. Sherry, in that apartment, when you're 50 years old, it's going to be survivable, because the

01:14:58

Lord will be there with you. The Lord will be your portion, even in that time of trouble.

01:15:03

Even think of a Nancy Lee DeMoss before she, what is it, Woldemouth now, before she got married. She was 50 years old, and she was in that apartment.

01:15:11

And you know what, Sherry? The Lord sustained her. So your greatest fear, we can really exorcise that greatest fear by looking at it and saying, you know what?

01:15:25

The Lord will be with me. He'll be a refuge and a strength, and be present with me in that time of trouble.

01:15:32

I think that's the grand theme of the psalm writer. Spurgeon comments on that psalm. He calls the psalm earthquake, but not heartbreak.

01:15:40

And he says this, this is the doctrine of the psalm. Happen what may, the

01:15:45

Lord's people are still happy and secure. And you know, many times those cataclysmic events are used in scripture to denote changes in the powers that be, political powers, kings being torn down and others coming up and all that.

01:16:04

And after what we've recently been through in our own nation, with the election and all that, this is good for us to remember that even we're not just talking about whether there's going to be a tsunami coming to America, but we're talking about even in politics, those who are in the rule that are ruling over us,

01:16:25

God is in control there as well. And we do not need to fear that even. Sure. Even think even today,

01:16:31

I was, I was noticing about 11 o 'clock in the morning, stocks were down 180 points and people said, well, this is because there is a waning of the optimism of the

01:16:44

Trump pro -growth policy. And so people with their 401ks and their retirement programs fearing and dreading, oh no, there's going to be a stock crash.

01:16:56

Well, you know, our hope ultimately is not in our stock diversification, not in calling our broker and his saying, well, statistically speaking, there will not be a drop of any significance.

01:17:08

Look, the reality is that even if, uh, we would be, we'd lose it all and we'd be bankrupt.

01:17:16

We would say still our heavenly father provides daily bread. Matthew six, just as he cares for the birds of the air and lilies of the field is going to provide for me.

01:17:27

I think we, we have to look at not the statistics as our composing tranquilizer, but we ultimately have to go to the

01:17:36

Lord and say, even in poverty, he will be there with me to provide my daily bread.

01:17:41

He provided for the Israelites. He'll care for me. Well, even Job said, though, he's slain me yet.

01:17:46

Well, I trust in him. That's going pretty far. Uh, what would, what I didn't catch though, that you didn't mention is how did it actually turn out with your son?

01:17:55

Oh, well, that's an interesting story. He's 27 years old. Uh, he was born, uh, there in Dayton, Ohio, and he was whisked away from my wife to a children's hospital where in the first week he had two, uh, very intense surgeries, one on his back and another on the back of his neck.

01:18:16

And you know, the Lord repaired that spine. We had to walk to see if he'd ever walk. He walked about,

01:18:22

Oh, maybe, uh, almost a year late, but he's got a black belt in Taekwondo. Oh, that's great.

01:18:30

And there was a time when I said, I said in the kitchen, okay, his name is Austin. I said, Hey Austin, come on. Can you really do anything with this

01:18:35

Taekwondo? Within five seconds, I was on the floor. My daughter got into that too.

01:18:43

And it's like, well, how do you ground them when they, when they're like that? By the way, by the way,

01:18:51

I've got, I've got four sons and one daughter. I only have two grandchildren and they've come from Austin, my broken little boy whom the

01:19:01

Lord put back together. So it's interesting too, Chris, that radiologist, the first thing he said to me when he saw spina bifida in the baby on the ultrasound, he says,

01:19:10

Mr. Chansky, we have options here. Meaning we can take them out with an abortion because it's a very deformed life.

01:19:20

Well, the Lord is gracious, isn't he? Amen. And by the way,

01:19:25

I just wanted to let you know the last two questions and comments were from Reverend Buzz Taylor, my cohost. I have to say that because people have said that we sound a lot alike, which if it sounds really intelligent, it's me.

01:19:38

Yeah. Right. But anyway, um, let's see, we have an anonymous listener in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says that one of the things that I have most fear of is the eternal destiny of my children, none of whom are

01:19:58

Christian. I don't know how any parent can ever face a child dying out of Christ and entering into eternal hell.

01:20:10

The thought of it is infathomable to me. I cannot believe that I will ever be able to accept such a horrible fate for my precious children if they do not come to faith before they depart this earth.

01:20:26

What counsel can you provide? Well, I guess I would say take that worst fear and stare it right in the eye.

01:20:36

What would an eternity look like if you were standing there at judgment and you were on the right side and your three or four children were on the left side with the goat about to be escorted off into eternal condemnation?

01:20:52

Now, put yourself again, I'm talking about facing your worst fear. You have to look scripturally and say that in the eternal kingdom, there is no pain, sorrow, suffering, or dying.

01:21:08

The old order of things have passed away. Promises you will wipe every tear from your eye.

01:21:15

I think we can be assured that on that last day when we are around the throne and we're glorying in the

01:21:22

Lamb, our focus will so be obsessed and filled up with the

01:21:28

Lord and our intimacy with Him that there will not be that agony and that sorrow.

01:21:36

I think of Spurgeon. I mentioned him earlier how Spurgeon's mother used to say that Charles had when he was a little boy, he said the mom would say at nighttime,

01:21:47

Charles, if you do not repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, I will be a swift witness against you on the day of judgment.

01:22:01

And I think there's a mother who's thinking biblically, you know, I think we can love our children, but it's possible to overly love them in an idolatrous way so that we would look to them for our comfort and not to look to the

01:22:17

Lord ultimately for that which would bring us joy and satisfaction. I can't fully wrap my brain around this,

01:22:24

I admit, because I have five kids and my heart is with my five kids and I ache at the thought that this woman is expressing.

01:22:32

That being said, I think ultimately we need to look at our worst fears and go down into that dark valley, realize the

01:22:41

Lord is going to be there and there will be no pain, sorrow, suffering, or dying there. He's going to take care of me.

01:22:47

I'll be able to survive it. Amen. And don't you think that this is another one of those instances where a strongly held, firmly held belief in God's sovereignty really is an anchor for us?

01:23:06

Because this is a time when the Christian can proclaim, as we read in Genesis 18 verse 25, shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

01:23:21

We truly lay these things in the hands of God and we know that although it is our duty to evangelize, to be a loving witness to the lost, to be representatives of Jesus Christ on this earth, we know that we are sinners and that we will always fail in many ways while we do those things.

01:23:48

The salvation of the lost is not up to us and that is also in the hands of God.

01:23:56

The salvation of his people and also the reprobation of the lost or the damned is all in his hands ultimately.

01:24:08

Yeah, I think that text, the judge of all the earth will do what's right. Even think of Leviticus 11, Nadab in a bayou, offering up strange fire in the tabernacle and how they were consumed with fire and speaks of how

01:24:21

Aaron was silent. In other words, he submitted to the destruction of his own sons, which was,

01:24:31

I think, a very godly example for the high priest in the presence of the living

01:24:36

God. And so, you know, it's like the Mrs. Job voice in our heads that says, okay,

01:24:44

I just lost my ten children and Mrs. Job says, curse God and die and Job says, shall we accept good from the

01:24:50

Lord or evil from the Lord and not good? Good, not evil? And I think that sometimes it's a reprogram our minds, like you say, from a perspective of theism and a sovereign

01:25:01

God who does do all things well and we need to realize that we'll take our side with him.

01:25:08

And we're going to go to our final break of the day right now. If you have questions for Pastor Mark Chansky on staring your worst fear straight in the eye, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:25:22

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

01:25:30

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01:25:44

We will honor that request. But our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Mark Chansky. Tired of box store

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01:33:01

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and I hope you join me at Harvey Cedars Bible Conference, May 15th through the 17th at the

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Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat, which is being run by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

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and click on the events tab at the top of the page, and there will be all the information that you need about the

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Faithful Shepherd Pastors Retreat at the Harvey Cedars Bible Conference in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey, and many other events that the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is conducting. We are interviewing today, for those of you who just tuned us in, for the second hour we have had on the program for a half hour and the next half hour to come,

01:33:53

Pastor Mark Chansky, a pastor of the Harbor Reform Baptist Church of Holland, Michigan, teacher of hermeneutics for the

01:34:00

Reform Baptist Seminary of Easley, South Carolina, and we are discussing Stare Your Worst Fears Right in the

01:34:07

Eye. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:34:12

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and we do have

01:34:17

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, is all fear connected with sin?

01:34:27

I don't necessarily think that, I mean, I think there are some fears and awareness of impending danger.

01:34:37

I think that can be healthy and wholesome. I think there's a sense in which, you know, what does it say, the proverb says, the wise man sees the danger, the fear, and hides himself, but the fool continues on and suffers for it.

01:34:53

And I think there is an element here, Chris, where when we do have dangers impending foreboding ahead of us, that it should drive us to do what we can responsibly do.

01:35:04

I mean, let's say there is a guy at the corporation who fears he's on the bubble and he may be laid off, that that fear in a wholesome way could drive him to, look, arrive at work earlier, stay a little later, show himself to be irreplaceable to the management.

01:35:24

I think that is a wholesome fear in that sense. Or the woman who fears that her teenager's life might be endangered, being out till 2 a .m.

01:35:36

on Friday night, look, give him a curfew, get back by 1130. Or even, let's say, the 20 -something girl who fears she's going to be a spinster at age 50, well, maybe there are some things that she could do.

01:35:50

In fact, let's say, to be politically correct, let me change the gender here. Let's say there's a guy in my church who's 20 -something and fears he's not going to be married.

01:35:58

I may say to him, all right, look that fear in the eye, but also, what can you practically do to make yourself more marriageable?

01:36:07

Maybe you could lose about 30 pounds. Or maybe take a shower now and then.

01:36:17

Maybe you can make yourself more vocationally able to support by going off and getting certification as a mechanic.

01:36:26

Or maybe you can talk to people in your church and ask, are there quirky things about me?

01:36:33

So I do think those fears in that sense, not paralyzing fears, but healthy fears showing us danger to divert our course,

01:36:41

I think that's a healthy thing. Reverend Buzz Taylor has a comment or question. Even a

01:36:46

Pentecostal pastor once told me, if a grizzly bear is coming after you, it's not time to rebuke the spirit of fear.

01:36:53

It's time to run. That's adrenaline, right? Yes. Exactly.

01:36:58

But the whole idea of facing the fear, let me just toss in another text, because I want to really screw in this principle so it'll be secure in the mind.

01:37:07

It's not just man's idea. I think it's really embedded in the scriptures and the

01:37:13

Psalms in particular, which really are the pharmacy for mental health, aren't they? Psalm 27 .1,

01:37:19

David says, the Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the defense of my life, of whom shall

01:37:27

I be afraid? And then he gives these worst case scenarios. The next verse, when evil doers come upon me to devour my flesh, or when my adversaries and my enemies surround me.

01:37:40

He says, even then I shall be confident. He even gives one more. He speaks about, for though my mother and father may forsake me, the

01:37:49

Lord will take me up. I mean, imagine David, he's being hunted and everybody's turned their back on him, seeing him as a traitor.

01:37:56

The worst case scenario socially would be even if his mom and his dad turned their back on him.

01:38:03

But he says, even if I would be such an orphan that no one cared for me, he says, yet the

01:38:09

Lord will take me up. So he looks the worst case scenario right in the eye.

01:38:15

In fact, let me just give this illustration and I'll let you pop back in, Chris. When my oldest son was, oh, about 10 years old, maybe more like six or seven, we got moved into a new house and there was a door to an attic in his bedroom.

01:38:35

And he was terrified about that door in the attic. He couldn't sleep because he was afraid that there were hobgoblins or wolves or bears or dragons in that attic.

01:38:45

So what I did is, late one night, I got one of those extension cords and one of those shop lights.

01:38:52

And I went into the dreaded attic with my son, Jared, my firstborn. And I said,

01:38:58

OK, Jared, let's see what's in here. He's facing his fears. What's in this attic that's really going to hurt you?

01:39:06

And I said, oh, look over there, Jared. It's the killer playpen. And then look there,

01:39:14

Jared, on the it's the abominable box of sweaters. And look over there,

01:39:21

Jared. It's the deadly carpet roll. And look over there, the quick sand insulation.

01:39:28

The point is, the point is Jared realized that there was nothing in that attic that could hurt him.

01:39:35

He went into the attic, the valley of his worst fears. And he exorcised the place by staring his worst fears right in the eye.

01:39:45

Now, we left a flashlight in his room so that whenever he was afraid again, he could go back in.

01:39:51

But the point is, he slept like a baby from then on, having faced his worst fears.

01:39:58

We do have a listener from your neck of the woods, Pastor Mark. We have

01:40:04

Kevin from Holland, Michigan, who writes in, since the Word of God is sufficient for all of our needs, what scriptures have you found to be helps in dealing with your own personal fears, like when you wake up at 3 a .m.

01:40:19

and your mind keeps reeling with anxious thoughts? I mean, you don't have any personal fears, do you?

01:40:25

No, I just read books about this. One of those elements for me would be

01:40:36

Psalm 21, when it speaks of, from where comes my help?

01:40:43

My help comes from the Lord who made the heavens and the earth. He never sleeps.

01:40:48

He never slumbers. He watches our going out and coming in from this time, forth, and evermore. So, I say at 3 a .m.

01:40:53

when I get up, something that my wife says, maybe you should get up and pray, and maybe you should stay and have a vigil.

01:41:01

But you know what? I view it as the Lord has taken me as a frail man. I've got to sleep maybe seven hours a night.

01:41:09

So, the Lord takes the night watch. He hasn't assigned me to stay awake all night in that tent.

01:41:15

I mean, there are times when I'm stopping and praying, but not for us to sit and worry and do, because the

01:41:21

Lord is the one who stays awake all night. It's for me to sleep and get my rest, and then begin thinking in the morning, whether it be 6 .30

01:41:28

or 7 o 'clock. But I think the Lord, He's the one who takes our night watch. He watches.

01:41:34

In fact, as far as myself, just this example of facing the fears, there was a time when a friend of someone

01:41:42

I knew, their 18 -year -old son was killed. And I was out in Oregon, and I really had my heart torn up about this.

01:41:51

And I had a son who was near that age. And when I was at my host house, it was about 1 o 'clock in the morning, and the phone rang downstairs.

01:42:01

And my mind, again, there's late night, right? My mind began to think how, you know what?

01:42:07

Why would someone be calling unless there was some emergency, maybe back in Holland? And maybe it's my 18 -year -old son who's been in some kind of an accident or had some kind of a seizure of some kind.

01:42:22

I'm telling you, I was wide awake. I was terrified. But then I just thought to myself, I just thought to myself, all right, all right.

01:42:28

I need to be able to say, yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, the

01:42:35

Lord will be with me. His rod and staff, they will comfort me. And even if Diane and I in five days are back in Holland, Michigan, selecting a casket for our 18 -year -old son, you know what?

01:42:46

The Lord is going to be with us there at that mortuary. I'm going to meditate on that fact of the

01:42:53

Lord being with me and rod and staff comforting. And I fell asleep. That was the tranquilizer for my soul.

01:43:01

So, yea, I do have these problems. And I do find myself anxious.

01:43:07

And I find this to be the best sedative for my soul. Well, thank you,

01:43:12

Kevin. And by the way, since I believe you are a first -time questioner, you have received a free

01:43:19

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, who have been sponsoring

01:43:26

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio ever since our inception in 2006, and who have been sponsoring debates and all kinds of events that I have orchestrated going back even further to the early 90s.

01:43:40

And keep your eye open for a package from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS, that's

01:43:47

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service, dot com, CVBBS .com

01:43:53

will be on the envelope. And they are shipping out that beautiful New American Standard Bible to you.

01:44:01

We just need your full mailing address, your full name and full mailing address, and we'll have that shipped out to you,

01:44:06

God willing, within a week or so. One of the things that I have noticed over the years that troubles me, and this is something that I've noticed with pastors that I know, both from the fundamentalist, independent fundamentalist background, and also from Reformed circles, that there seems to be a fear amongst these men that they are not either fundamentalist enough or Reformed enough, whichever side of the spectrum you're on, for the likings of their friends and colleagues in the ministry.

01:44:55

And I can tell, I know on certain occasions that men have really kept silent about certain issues that they are convicted about, that they believe, because they know that they will be out of favor with their friends in the ministry.

01:45:13

And of course, you also have a universally held fear amongst pastors and ministers from the whole spectrum of Christendom, regardless of whether it's genuine biblical

01:45:29

Christianity or even liberal, where you may have pastors just afraid that they are going to lose their job because they're not making their congregation happy.

01:45:37

How can you address those issues when it comes to those kinds of fears? And have you experienced that yourself, where you think that, or you are convinced that men are really not being totally upfront and honest and following their convictions from what they see in the scriptures because they're afraid they're going to be outcasts with their colleagues in ministry?

01:46:01

Well, I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I can speak for myself. And I can say, sure, there is a desire to be esteemed, and the proverb warns that the fear of man will prove to be a snare.

01:46:16

And there can be times when, if we're a part of a certain theological or ecclesiastical tradition, we can be part of a certain group of churches, and there may be certain doctrines that these churches champion, or certain traditions.

01:46:35

I mean, even among, you know, among Reformed Baptists, it could be that the issue of maybe using the

01:46:43

Trinity Hymnal and singing out of the Trinity Hymnal, that if you would divert away from that, somehow you lose your lack of substance and your lack of being truly committed to the things of the faith.

01:47:03

Well, that's not Bible. That can be mere tradition. And you know, what does the

01:47:10

Lord Jesus say about tradition? These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are from me. Their teachings are but the traditions of men.

01:47:16

And how I think we need to be most concerned about using the Word of God as our compass instead of the appetites of men.

01:47:27

I think we should always be reforming in the sense that we should always be conforming to the

01:47:32

Word of God, and not saying that, look, as a pastor, I want to make sure that we always do it the way that we did it in the 1970s or the 1980s.

01:47:43

We need to do it the way that the Word of God calls us to do it. It was said of David that he served his own generation well, so I need to serve my generation well in 2017, and be concerned about echoing the truth of the

01:47:58

Word of God, and not necessarily merely hitting those pet doctrines or pet traditions that some people may have, even in our own churches.

01:48:13

Well, before we run out of time, I want to make sure that you focus on something that you said at the outset of the program that you wanted to really pay most of your attention to towards the end of the interview, and that's the subject of death, something that men and women are universally afraid of.

01:48:30

Yeah, thanks so much for bringing us back to that, Chris, I appreciate that. We talk about facing your fears and staring your fears right in the eye.

01:48:40

Again, I go back to Psalm 23, Yea, though I walk through the veil of the shadow of death,

01:48:46

I fear no evil, for you are with me, your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

01:48:53

Well, the reality is there probably are some people here who are listening, and they haven't yet repented of their sins.

01:49:02

They haven't yet believed in the Savior, and the reality is, if you haven't yet had heart dealings with God, you need to know that you're a stranger to Christ, and that the

01:49:13

God of heaven, you know, we quote Psalm 23 as a great comfort, but if you haven't repented and believed, the

01:49:21

God of heaven is not your gracious father, but he's your strict judge, and so your knowing uneasiness of mind and conscience is legit, and the fears about your dying day aren't unfounded, they're very well founded.

01:49:37

In fact, if you haven't gone to Christ yet, you are extremely rational and wise to be terrified, because the reality is that if you're apart from the

01:49:49

Lord Jesus Christ, you're going to be forced to descend into the veil of the shadow of death alone, and there'll be no rod to protect you, and no staff to preserve you.

01:50:02

So when this world collapses and gives way on the last day, and when the mountains come crashing down, you know what

01:50:08

Revelation 6 says? There will be people who will be crying out to the rocks and to the mountains, all on us, for this is the day of the wrath of the

01:50:18

Lamb, and I haven't repented, and it's too late. So again, I believe it's so important for all those who have fears about death to be able to again hide themselves in the

01:50:34

Lord Jesus, and to be able to say, again, though my mother and father forsake me, the

01:50:40

Lord will take me up. I think of old blind Bartimaeus, you know, and when he said as a blind man, and Jesus walked by, and he said,

01:50:52

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me, Jesus son of David, have mercy on me, and those who were in the crowd said, shut up, you old man, he's not paying attention to you.

01:51:03

When he was afraid that Christ was going to pass him by, he didn't go silent, but he said, he shouted out all the more,

01:51:10

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me. And I will admit this to you, Chris, you know what? There are times when I have these concerns and these fears in my heart, have

01:51:21

I really believed? And sometimes I can be like Bartimaeus, thinking Jesus has passed me by, but I have just resolved that I am going to, for the rest of my life, keep shouting out,

01:51:32

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me. And if I come to the point where I am there on judgment day, even if I'm on the left side, and the angels are about to heave, hold me into the lake of fire,

01:51:45

I'm going to keep shouting out till I get a case of laryngitis, Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.

01:51:53

And that passage in Mark 10 tells me that that Barton persistence in believing and crying out for mercy, that's a saving stuff, because the

01:52:03

Lord Jesus stops, and the Lord Jesus draws near to such a person. So that's just my life verse,

01:52:11

Mark 10, Jesus son of David, have mercy on me. Nothing in my hands

01:52:16

I bring, only to Christ's cross I cling. I trust not in my deeds,

01:52:22

I trust only in the finished work of my Savior, and I'm going to keep pleading that mercy. So that is my,

01:52:28

I guess, life preserver when I feel like I'm drowning in my own sins. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know if you put a very high level of importance on good

01:52:39

Christian friends in order to confide in when battling these terrifying fears.

01:52:45

Oh yeah, I think so. What the proverb says, he who walks with the wise grows wise, but the friend of fools suffers harm.

01:52:53

And I think to be able to have, oh you think of Bunyan, Christian and hopeful it is.

01:53:02

And how Christian, when he's going through the river, and he's drowning in the river, who's there with him?

01:53:12

It's hopeful who's calling him again, and encouraging him, and causing to look to the

01:53:18

Lord Jesus Christ. And yeah, there was a man in our church, in fact recently, who was on his deathbed.

01:53:24

He was dying of cancer, and it was a number of weeks where church members would spend the night with him, because we didn't know if this would be the night he would die.

01:53:33

And just talking with him, people would discuss with him, hey Glenn are you okay? And Glenn would confess, you know, sometimes late at night, the night dragons come out, and my sins, you know, more numerous than the hairs of my head, what a wretched man am

01:53:49

I, who will rescue me? And just have a brother there late at night to say, believe in the

01:53:54

Lord Jesus Christ, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact, he had this little scrap of paper where he had written down, and he would just hold to this scrap of paper, it was worn out by the time that he died on that deathbed.

01:54:08

It was Romans 10 9, if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

01:54:18

And he just clung to that promise, and have brothers and sisters there to encourage him.

01:54:24

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a real source of help in time of fear. Amen, and especially because there are certain things,

01:54:33

I'm assuming that you as a pastor believe that we should not reveal some of our most secret fears to just anybody, but there needs to be a good friend that we know we can confide in, in certain cases in this regard.

01:54:51

Yeah, I think there's a truth to that. I think in Psalm 73, Asaph speaks about betraying a generation.

01:54:58

I suppose there are things that, yeah, we'll keep close to our chest and share with the most intimate of friends.

01:55:04

That being said, you know, I think it's also legitimate to be wholly transparent in a way that we as pastors even don't present ourselves as these uh, uh, invincible rocks to our people.

01:55:25

Look at David. Look at how transparent and open this, this man after God's own heart is.

01:55:32

And David speaks of fearing and dreading, but then finding comfort in the

01:55:37

Lord. Even, even Psalm 88 speaks of, there's not even a, there's not even a flicker of light in Psalm 88.

01:55:44

It ends up with, darkness is my closest friend. And I think we need to be candid enough to express,

01:55:51

I walk through valleys of the shadow of death to myself, so that people don't think somehow,

01:55:58

I must be way off course because I have all these dark dreads and depressions. I think we should be candid enough to express, yeah, me too.

01:56:07

1 Corinthians 10, no temptation has seized you, but that which is common to man. I think we need to be able to divulge that to our people reasonably.

01:56:16

Amen. And if you could let our listeners know something in, in the summary form about your two books,

01:56:21

Manly Dominion and Womanly Dominion. Yeah, well, both of them focus on the passage in Genesis chapter one, the first words of the

01:56:31

Lord, God created man in the image of God. And he says, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it and rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air.

01:56:42

And those two words, subduing and ruling, you know, we as men, we can be very passive in our lives and let our environment subdue and rule us.

01:56:53

But I think we need to instead say, no, no, I, I am in this world by the

01:57:00

Lord and he wants me to have an aggressive boldness in my seeking to not permit my circumstances to dominate me, but for me to get out there and subdue and rule and dominate my environment.

01:57:15

So help me God. So that's Manly Dominion and Womanly Dominion too. Women aren't just to be, well, the subtitle is more than a gentle and quiet spirit.

01:57:24

Women are also to be a fierce in the sense that they subdue and rule in their spheres of life as a helpmate, as a mother, as a

01:57:37

Titus II woman in the church, as a Christian, they too need to be aggressive and strong women who subdue and rule in their lives as well.

01:57:49

And if anybody listening wants to get those books, you could go to cvbbs .com,

01:57:55

C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for BibleBookService .com and ask for the books by Mark Chansky, C -H -A -N -S -K -I,

01:58:06

Manly Dominion, and also the second book, Womanly Dominion. Those are two separate books. And the

01:58:12

Harbor Reform Baptist Church, their website is harborchurchholland .org.

01:58:19

Harborchurchholland .org. I want to remind you about the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.

01:58:25

They're having two events. One is in Byron Center, Michigan. That's going to be held March 24th through the 26th at the

01:58:33

First Christian Reform Church of Byron Center. The second is at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

01:58:39

And then we also have, as I was mentioning, the Faithful Shepherd Pastor's Retreat, May 15th through the 17th at the

01:58:48

Alliance. Well, it's being sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals at Harvey Cedars Bible Conference in Harvey Cedars, New Jersey on Long Beach Island.

01:58:58

And go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org for all the information on those events.

01:59:04

I want to thank you, Pastor Mark Chansky, for being my guest today, and I look forward to you coming back very soon and very often.

01:59:11

All right, Chris. Thank you. Blessings. Blessings. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

01:59:17

I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my co -host today. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater