SRR #77 | A Wolf Among The Sheep

I do a podcast.

I'm not interested in your podcast.

The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone. When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the air and combating the air.

We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make, I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.

We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style.

I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing. It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible. Jesus said, woe to you when men speak well of you. For their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

As opposed to, blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle.

Introducing the John Piper Controversy

All right. I want to welcome everybody back to Simple Riff around the radio. This is Tim and I'm going to be your host for today. And today we're going to be interviewing an individual by the name of Patrick Hines.

And Patrick is a Presbyterian pastor. And I've asked Patrick to come on, Pastor Hines, to come on the podcast to talk about something specific. And before we do that, let me just give Pastor Hines an opportunity to say hello and let me welcome him to the show.

Yeah. Thanks, Tim. I'm really excited to be here with you. As you were just told, I'm Patrick Hines. I've been married for 21 years and I have nine children, six girls and three boys. And I've been the pastor at Brittle Heights Presbyterian Church since June of 2012.

And I was in a different denomination. I was in the Bible Presbyterian Church, which is kind of a micro denomination from way, way, way back in the 1930s. And I was an assistant pastor there at a church in Cincinnati for four years and then eventually came down here to Tennessee.

And I've been here ever since. And things are really going well here at the church. And God's been really blessing the work that we're doing. So I'm excited to have this opportunity to speak with you about this very, very important topic.

Yes, and we're going to get into that topic in just a minute. But recently I did an interview on the Bible Thumping Wingnut podcast where I basically promoted that we are going to bring you on. And for all of our listeners, I owe you an apology because I said that you are Mark Hines and that is certainly not your name.

So I apologize for that. It is Patrick Hines. Well, I was speaking to several individuals on Facebook Messenger. One of them was named Mark. And in my head, I just, I guess I conflated your name with his name.

Well, so we are going to talk about something controversial. And I think really the only way to do this is to basically jump into the topic. The reason that I've brought Pastor Hines on to the podcast is because we want to talk about John Piper and the controversy that is surrounding John Piper.

I believe it is still surrounding John Piper, even though a lot of what we see has sort of died down. And it seems like a lot of people have moved on from this topic. Now, Timothy Kaufman and myself, we published an article on our website.

We published two articles on our website, and we also published an article on the Trinity Foundation. And we did an episode, a podcast episode with the Trinity Foundation discussing this issue. And so, Pastor Hines, you did something that I thought was pretty remarkable.

And the reason that I wanted to bring you on here was basically to promote what you're doing and to promote your stuff. And a number of weeks ago, Tom Giuditis, the president of the Trinity Foundation, introduced me to your content.

I had never heard of you before. And I think sometimes it's hard to find good quality content out there. And so, I was very grateful that Tom Giuditis had introduced me to your content. And you were basically saying the same things that we were saying about John Piper.

And what you did, which I thought was really good, was that you actually preached a sermon titled, what was the title of that sermon? Let me look it up. John Piper's False Gospel. That was the name of the sermon.

And in the message, you essentially said, you said, folks, I'm just going to say it, that's a false gospel. And you later said, quote, Piper is wrong on the gospel. And I thought this was remarkable because you're not just leaving it as some side issue, maybe talking about it in an article.

You are preaching this in front of your congregation. So, real quickly, did you lose any members over this?

No, I didn't. I got a number of questions. There were folks, that was actually the first Sunday of that month. And on the first Sunday of the month, we always do a fellowship luncheon. So, people will stay at the church until about three o 'clock on that first Sunday of the month.

So, people, it sparked a lot of conversation. But, you know, I was privileged by the grace of God to take over in a church that had been pastored by a very faithful godly man. Larry Ball was here for 31 years before I got here.

So, the people here love the Reformed faith. And they understood that I didn't just say that Piper's preaching a false gospel. I gave the quotations. I pointed out the things that he has said, even trying to clarify that he is very, very clearly promoting something contrary to Scripture and what the Scripture says about the gospel.

So, people were happy that I did that. And, you know, we have a book rack where we put lots and lots and lots of books out, very heavily subsidized. I've never put any of Piper's books out there because I've never been a huge fan of his.

But I'm glad that we didn't have to go through and pull anything off of the book racks. But everybody understood what I was saying, that what I pointed out was, in fact, very serious. So, no, no, we didn't lose any members over that sermon.

That's good. And I figured that you probably didn't. I've been looking at your stuff, and you seem to be pretty straightforward with your theology. And, you know, it's like I think that people in your church would know where you stand probably before you said something about it.

But I brought that up because, you know, one of the things that I want to talk about is why pastors don't seem to want to address the issue. But before we do that, let me ask you this. So we're talking about John Piper and his false gospel.

And what we're going to do today is we're actually going to play that sermon that you preached in your own church. And then what we're going to do is we are going to put in the links section all of the content, all of the ways that you've addressed Piper's false teaching.

And I believe there's four episodes, if I'm correct. And one of them was a response to Piper's response. And one of the things that you said was that, you know, if you had made a controversy over the gospel, something that should be simple, something that everybody should get.

If you had made such a controversy over this, that you would at the very least be questioning whether or not you should be in ministry. And one of the things that I wanted to just ask you is what, in a nutshell, what is wrong with Piper's gospel?

The problem of what John Piper is saying is that he makes a very hard distinction between justification and what he calls final salvation. And the reason that that makes him so dangerous and so subtle is that John Piper can go on and on and on and even write entire books on justification where he sounds and says exactly what we would say about justification.

But you have to bear in mind that in his thinking, justification is not what gets you into heaven. And that's what's wrong with it, is when you listen to him talk about justification, he will say everything that we would say.

He goes on and on. I mean, he goes to the very same passages. If you go the direction, Piper says, if you go the direction of justification by just a little law-keeping, you go the direction of justification by total law-keeping.

And we hear that and we say, yeah, that's right. But then he says, and here, let me give you a direct quotation from an article that's a transcript of his sermon. He says here, okay, in sanctification, faith receives an ongoing power of Christ that works inside of us for practical holiness.

Okay, before that, he said, in justification, faith receives a finished work of Christ performed outside of us and counted as ours. Yeah, that sounds great. But then the third thing he says is, in final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith.

And that's why I just said, look, when the Reformation said that justification is by faith alone, when the great confessions of faith, looking, following exactly what the Apostle Paul said about this.

When he said, therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. What they're talking about, what the New Testament is talking about is the doctrine that gets you into heaven.

It is the legal verdict at the final judgment. And so, for Piper to make this hard distinction and to act like he affirms justification sola fide by the blood and righteousness of Christ alone, really all he's talking about.

And he's very careful to say it this way in the way he preaches about this. I've listened to that sermon more than once, and I've listened to his clarification video more than once. He's always very careful to say faith alone gets you into not heaven, but a position where God is now 100 for you.

So, it's very, very careful to make sure that's all he says about what faith does. Faith in Christ gets you into a position where God is now 100 for you. And now, from that position, you pursue holiness and put sin to death.

And then, really, on that basis, you are saved. I mean, he says you are saved through that fruit, okay? The fruits of our faith are the works that we do because of the regenerating work of the Spirit of God in our lives.

And we're born again, and God dethrones the power of sin, Romans 6 addresses this. And the problem is he includes that in, quote-unquote, final salvation and getting into heaven. And you remember, when you listen to his sermon, at one point, he goes off on the surveyors who asked the questions to all these evangelicals.

It was this big survey. And he said the surveyors are totally confused because they asked the question, how do you get into heaven? You don't get into heaven by faith alone. You get justified by faith alone.

You get into a position where God is 100 for you by faith alone. You just hear that and go, hang on a second here.

Hang on.

When you say you don't get into heaven by faith alone, what you are, in fact, saying is you do not get into heaven by the blood and righteousness of Christ alone. And that is a denial of the gospel. That's a denial of the sufficiency of the work of Christ.

That's exactly what the Apostle Paul was saying. In fact, it really is amazing when you look at Galatians. Galatians is really addressing the very error that Piper is making. In Galatians 3 .1, when he says, are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

I mean, that really is the very thing Piper is teaching. You initially get into this position where God is all for you, and then from that position, you have to produce this fruit that then becomes the grounds of your final salvation.

That's why this is a false gospel. It's shocking to me that more people have not called him out on this because it's very blatant.

Well, Pastor Hines, I really appreciate you sharing all of that and explaining exactly why Piper's teaching is wrong. And one thing that you said was that you were surprised that there's not more people calling him out.

And when we first published the article explaining why John Piper had a false gospel, I was really shocked by the pushback that we've gotten. Because for me, this was a clear cut and dry error. And it seemed like most people wanted to just defend Piper and make excuses for what he was saying.

And one of the things that I wanted to bring up is that in your message, and I'm paraphrasing you here. But in your message, you said that this is one of the most dangerous false teachers and one of the most dangerous false teachings.

You said something along those lines that we see here in the church today. And I've said exactly the same thing. Maybe not in that way, but I've made the same point. And the reason that I think that this is one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous teaching in the church today, is because you see its deceptive nature.

It is deceiving people that would otherwise when we call out people like Benny Hinn or when we call out people like Joel Osteen or these other people, you see that for the most part, the Reformed community is usually in a consensus of where these people stand.

But what we see is that Piper is preaching a false gospel, and a lot of quote-unquote Reformed people are actually defending him, and defending what he's saying, and trying to make nuances or trying to rewrite what he's saying.

And so I wanted you to just explain a little bit more. I wanted you to explain that a little bit more. Tell us why you think that this teaching is so dangerous and so bad.

Why Piper's Teaching Is So Dangerous

Yeah, for a lot of the reasons you just laid out. John Piper isn't a wild-eyed, goofy, charismatic like Benny Hinn, who's throwing the Holy Spirit across stadiums and knocking people down in the stands.

He has an air about him of great scholarship. He was educated at the University of Munich, and he did his doctoral dissertation on Romans 9, that book The Justification of God. There's a lot of good things in there.

He has been, in some ways, a very able defender of the sovereignty of God and the Reformed faith, and people are familiar with him because of that. The problem here is, like I said, he will affirm that he believes in justification by faith alone, and he'll say it as loudly as we say it.

And that's what makes him so subtle, is because you have to get into your mental machinery. When it comes to John Piper, when he's talking about justification, he is not talking about it the way the New Testament does, and he is not talking about it the way that the Protestant Reformation talked about it.

He is not talking about it the way the Westminster Standards talk about it. For him, justification is just the initial step that you can start the process of salvation. And he's real clear about that.

He says salvation is spoken of in Scripture as a process. And the reason that I really look at him as so dangerous is for that reason. He is so popular, and people want to give him a pass. I've been contacted by a number of people because of that sermon and also because of some of the videos I've done.

You know, why are you so angry? Why are you so angry? I said the same reason Paul was angry when he wrote Galatians. When Paul wrote Galatians, the man was livid, okay? He goes off on those false teachers.

And you would think, well, my gosh, is it really that big of a deal that they added this one little thing to the gospel? Paul is very crystal clear that getting the doctrine of justification wrong is another gospel that's no gospel at all.

And they added circumcision. They believed in Jesus Christ. Yes, you can't be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. You have to have faith in Christ. But they added this one little thing to it, and Paul says in Galatians 5, Christ will be of no benefit to you if you do that.

And so, that's what makes him so dangerous is because unlike Rome, Rome is just straightforward. We reject soul feeding. A lot of the false teachers today, they just, you know, flat out teach a raw works righteousness.

But Piper will say he affirms justification by faith alone and even argues for it the way we do. And can write articles about it and write entire books about it. He wrote a book called Counted Righteous in Christ where he defends the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

But it never hit me until I listened to him talk about this. He doesn't think that justification is the doctrine that gets us into heaven and makes us right with God once for all eternity. He doesn't see it that way.

And because of that, he is so subtle. It's such a subtle error. You have to really listen carefully for the way he slides this in. And another thing that makes him dangerous, if you watch my response to his clarification video, the host that was interviewing him for that says, yeah, this is a long, very broad reform tradition has always spoken this way.

It's not just us. There's many that will speak this way. And I remember thinking, and I said in the video, that is not the case.

Okay.

The reformers did not speak this way. And historic reform theology has not taught this. And the reform confessions do not teach this. Justification is the forensic legal verdict that changes our status before the law of God once and for all eternity that we are now declared righteous by the imputation of Christ's righteousness and his crosswork accepted in our place.

And that's what makes us right with God. And that's the end of it. And that's Paul's gospel. And he is very clear. If you get that wrong, you are outside the kingdom of God. And, you know, you and I were corresponding a little bit earlier.

One of the things I wrote down on the night before I was ordained, I wrote down a number of things I was afraid of, and I prayed about those things. And the first thing I wrote down on that list was that people would listen to me preach and end up in hell.

As far as I'm concerned, I have hit and hammered this issue of how to be justified before God from every conceivable angle. And I'm going to keep going back to it, too. Usually once a month or once every six weeks or so, we go back and cover this.

Because the tendency is not to stay orthodox. The tendency is not to stay biblical. It's always to drift away from those biblical truths. And so we have to keep pressing them and pushing them and making sure that people have the mental machinery and equipment from Scripture to recognize and to turn away from false gospels like this.

You're exactly right. And we are not exaggerating when we say that this is a matter of utmost importance. It is a matter of life and death. One of the things in talking to you through Messenger that you were referring to right now, that's a biblical perspective.

To want or to strive to say at the end of your ministry, if you end up in hell, it's not because of me. Because I'm going to do everything that I can to warn you in the truth and to give you the truth so that you will not end up in hell.

And in Acts 20 verses 26 through 29, Paul, he says, Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. And he says, Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And we see that this was what Paul was saying is, I'm innocent of the blood of all of you because I am telling you the whole counsel of God.

And let me ask you this. I believe that every pastor has an obligation to look into this and to essentially take a position that you really can't ignore this issue. And it would be analogous to ignoring what the Reformers were saying during the Protestant Reformation and just dismissing it as if it was just a personal conflict or a personal issue and just being outright dismissive of it.

And when I look at the church abroad, it seems like, OK, there was a controversy last year that spilled into the beginning of this year. And now we're sort of moving on. And I believe that every pastor has an obligation to say something about this or to study this in depth and to dig into this.

Because essentially what we're saying is the gospel is at stake and there's somebody among us who is preaching a false gospel. And in my city, because I always say this, I live in El Paso, Texas, and we are predominantly Roman Catholic.

And John Piper has a huge platform. He has a household name. And many of the people in my church know who John Piper is, read his stuff. I know some people who have written for John Piper's platform, Desiring God, and their articles got over a million hits.

This platform is huge. I mean, you talk about an article getting a million hits. We're lucky if we get 10 people to read our articles. So this is a very big deal. And I brought you on because I basically see you doing what a pastor should do.

A pastor is to care after the flock. And you brought up Paul. Paul wasn't the pastor of the Church of Galatia, but there was this controversy. And he intended to put the nail in the coffin. He intended to deal a death blow to this false gospel.

So what would be your encouragement to pastors out there who maybe are struggling with, well, you know, I'm not really sure what Piper's saying. And, well, what did he really mean? And, well, you know, I'm not really familiar with this whole controversy.

What would you say to them as pastors who are caring for people who probably read Piper's books, who probably listen to Piper's messages? And we're going to point out that one of the main reasons that we want to talk about this now is because Piper was one of the main speakers at a conference titled Together for the Gospel.

And thousands of pastors, hundreds if not thousands of pastors, listened to the speakers. And John Piper is one of the speakers at a conference called Together for the Gospel. And John Piper has a false gospel.

I mean, if you think about that, that is huge.

It is.

And so what are these pastors doing? And so I want you to speak on that for a minute, if you can.

Pastoral Responsibility to Warn the Flock

Like you said, that passage in Acts 20 is a great text because that's Paul exhorting the Ephesian elders, and he's telling them what they need to be aware of. And he's letting them know that you're going to see savage wolves arise from inside the church.

They will come in among you. If 2 Peter 2 says the same thing, there will be false teachers among the people, just as there are false teachers among you. And what pastors need to recognize is that the Scriptures teach very clearly that we are answerable to God for the people that we pastor.

The people who are communicant members of this church and the covenant children of this church, I will give an account to God on the day of judgment for how well I did what Acts 20 is talking about. And there's a great passage in 2 Timothy 2 .13 where Paul warns that evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving one another and being deceived.

And I remember years ago reading John Calvin's commentary on that. And he said the reason Paul told Timothy that was because he needed to be ready to spend the balance of his life in uninterrupted warfare for the truth.

And I had a friend who was in seminary at the same time I was. I went to Reform Seminary down in Jackson, Mississippi, and he was at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And he and I had been talking about N .T. Wright.

I'd just gotten into the New Perspective issue and was talking about that and talking about other issues. And he criticized me and said, man, you're always in polemical mode. You're always ready to just jump on this and condemn this and condemn that.

And I responded back to him very gently because he is now a pastor as far as I know. And I responded back to him and I said, if you're not ready to be in polemical mode for the rest of your life, please do not go into the ministry because we have enough cowards, traitors and turncoats as it is.

See, we're accountable not just for what we say. We are not accountable just for what we teach. We are also accountable for what we tolerate. We're also accountable for what we don't say something about.

And someone forwarded me a link to this thing by John Piper, and I listened to it. I was aghast by it. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. I went back and listened to it again. I read the articles.

There's lots of different articles there on Desiring God's website that teaches this false gospel, this initial justification by faith alone and then final salvation by works, final salvation by the fruits of your faith.

And I thought, you know what? This guy has such a huge platform and so many people know who he is. He needs to be denounced. And I'm going to call that sermon, John Piper's False Gospel. And that's what we're going to call it on Sermon Audio because I want people to be able to see that and I want them to hear this.

And the people who have responded to me and the people that I've corresponded with a little bit have been coming back at me and defending him.

And I've responded to them.

It makes me wonder if you need to be evangelized. If you don't understand that this is a false gospel, are you actually trusting that what's going to save you at the last day is the fruits of your faith?

Because my confidence is in the blood and righteousness of Christ alone. And if yours isn't something else, well, I think that you're going to be part of that line of people from Matthew 7, 22, who will hear, Lord, Lord, didn't I bear this fruit and didn't I bear that fruit and didn't I do this and didn't I do that?

I'm sorry if you're trusting in your works in any way, even the fruits of your faith, even if it was all made possible by grace, like the Roman Catholic Church teaches, you're not a Christian. And that's not this hardcore Reformed person like me.

That is the apostolic position that the scriptures give us. Paul is very clear about it.

Right.

Let me go ahead and read from an article titled Why Heretics Win Battles. I've read this before, I think, on another podcast, but this is by John Robbins. He writes,. We can learn a great deal from the example of the Apostle Paul in Antioch and his letter to the Galatians, for he was neither slow to recognize error nor timid in correcting it.

Our failure to learn from and imitate Paul is the principal reason why heretics win battles. Paul recognized doctrinal error quickly and acted swiftly to correct it. But this, which he was speaking of a problem over the preaching of the gospel, occurred because of false brethren to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Paul did not put up with, that is to yield submission to, error or those teaching error on the gospel even for an hour. One of the things that I wanted to point out with is that he says so that the truth might continue with you.

I think that every pastor needs to be concerned with, you know, there's people out there who are going to fall into this. I have no status in my church. I'm a nobody. And I'm going to submit this and everything else to my pastors because I want to raise the alarm.

I want them and everybody else to know that, no, you do not get into heaven through the fruit of your salvation or through fruit. You get into heaven through faith alone in Christ alone. And so this has been a very difficult road, but this needs to be really, this needs to be talked about more.

And here at Semper Reformanda Radio, we are not done dealing with this issue because as we've said before, it is so dangerous because of how deceptive it really is. So, you know, I'm praying that my pastors will see this.

I'm praying that other pastors who saw John Piper together for the gospel will come to recognize that currently right now, John Piper is preaching a false gospel. Now, we hope, we pray that Piper would repent, but the response that he gave was not repentance.

And he pushed the blame on other people as maybe not being educated or he said something if you're not informed of the reformed tradition or something like that, which is just totally absurd. It is ridiculous to make that claim.

And so here's what we're going to do. I've already said this, I think, but here's what we're going to do. We're going to play the sermon that you preached, Pastor Hines. And in the show notes, we are going to add all of your episodes.

One of those episodes is a response to Piper's response to the controversy. I did not have time to put anything together myself because I've been building the website. I've been helping the Trinity Foundation develop their podcast.

I've been helping Steve Matthews with his podcast. And I'm actually going to be helping to bring on Pastor Hines' content onto the website because we want to promote what he's doing. And we want to promote the stuff that he's addressing.

He's got some really good stuff, and we want to promote that. So we're going to be doing that. So I've been pulled in other directions, and I haven't been able to tackle this. But Pastor Hines, he addressed this issue.

And so I want everybody to listen to the sermon and then go and listen to what Pastor Hines said in response to Piper's response because Piper is still wrong. And this is the gospel. And as Christians, you have an obligation to at least inform yourself of this.

And pastors, I think you have an obligation to study this in earnest because if you're going to a conference where Piper is a keynote speaker and the conference is titled Together for the Gospel and Piper is preaching a false gospel and you're not even studying this, you're not going through this, you're not willing to take a look at this, then I think the Word of God would admonish you to say something about this.

And Pastor Hines, let me ask you one more question. I didn't add this in the show notes, but I'd like for you to address something. I'm bringing you on. And so far, you're the only pastor that I've heard actually preach a sermon in his church to his congregation, warning your own flock about this false teaching.

And I think what a lot of people do, and I know pastors who are guilty of this, what they do is they say, well, if what you're saying is true, how come nobody else is seeing it? And here we have Together for the Gospel has affirmed Piper implicitly and even explicitly.

They've affirmed Piper and essentially have said, Piper's solid on the gospel so much so that we want him to be one of the main speakers at this conference titled Together for the Gospel. And a lot of pastors, I think, will struggle with that.

Well, I don't want to be the guy that's just calling everybody out and you're a heretic and you're a heretic and you're a heretic. One of the things that I heard you say, Pastor Hines, was that in one of your other sermons was that there was some guy who was talking to you and he was an old earth creationist.

And you were like, well, yeah, that's problematic. But, you know, I still believe you can be a Christian. And, you know, this isn't the hill that we're going to die on. I think you're wrong. And I think that you should probably study that a little bit more.

But I'm not going to die on this hill. But this issue is not secondary. This issue is primary. And what I think happens is a lot of pastors look at, well, nobody else is seeing this. How come nobody else is calling him to account?

How come? And first of all, it's a myth. I think of when Elijah went into the cave and he cried out to God and he said, only I am left. I'm the only one that's left. And God says, no, I've saved 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal.

And we can look at ourselves and say, like, I'm the only one calling him out. I'm the only one disagreeing with this. Well, first of all, that's not true. In one of our episodes, I put up links. R. Scott Clark is disagreeing with this.

The Trinity Foundation is disagreeing with this. We are disagreeing with this. I think Paul Flynn disagreed with this. You are disagreeing with this. There are people who are disagreeing with this and calling this to account.

So, first of all, that's a myth. But I get the impression that a lot of pastors, they sort of follow. It's like, well, what is John MacArthur saying about this? Or, well, did R .C. Sproul say anything about this?

And, unfortunately, R .C. Sproul has passed away. I believe he was a brother in the Lord and very grateful to that man and his ministry. But they look to these other guys, these other ringleaders to wait to see where they land or where they fall.

And many times they're not going to say anything. I don't know if they have time to go through Piper's Mess because of the demands of their own ministry. I don't know what the issue is. I don't. But as a pastor, you have an obligation, I think, to concern.

If your members are reading John Piper and John Piper is preaching a false gospel, I think we have an obligation, as it says in Mark 16, verse 17, to mark them and avoid them.