Roman Catholicism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Show Intro and the Jump-Drive Giveaway Idea

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. Well, I've got a lot of stuff to talk about today. First of all, I'm very excited about the fact that over in my office right now the EEPC is charging up.

It was less than a week ago, it was a week ago tomorrow, I think yes, we go to go tomorrow. I was at the airport in Indianapolis sitting at the gate and I blogged a article. Blogged a blog article. Is that how you do it?

You blog it. Well, anyway, I put something on the blog about Finding this little teeny tiny PC that we would be able to use to stream debates and presentations things like that while I'm on the road and I Told the story later on the blog that I posted that I walked off Walk down the down the way got something to take on the flight back came back got my BlackBerry out surfed over to the Amazon wish list and it was already purchased and it arrived today and it is tiny.

Oh it is it I remember. Have you ever seen the video of when I was I was debating Hamza Abdul Malik and I had this teeny tiny little Thing was called an LG phenom and I'm so bummed that LG stopped making that because it was it was pretty cool.

This is this is just a little bit bigger than LG phenom. Obviously considerably more powerful. But it is a tiny little thing and it's charging up the other room. I haven't even turned it on yet because you know, it's always good to charge the battery first.

So it's in the other room charging now. What I'd like to do today, first of all very again. When when folks do stuff off that that wish list it is a resource list. It is so encouraging and this morning Someone was doing something that I've really needed for a long time.

I put it on the wish list and They were talking about doing that and that's that's always encouraging to us. That's great. But what I'd like to do today is I'd like to get your feedback on a possibility of Doing something.

I had this really cool idea and I need to find out whether we should invest in this or not, basically. And maybe get some ideas as to how to do it. Maybe if we did like a pre sale thing on it or something to raise the funds to do it.

I don't know. But here's the idea. You're you're at the airport. You're on a bus in New York a train in New York or London for that matter. You're having a conversation with somebody and you really actually start to get into Giving your your Presentation of the gospel you're dealing with a Mormon up in Salt Lake you're dealing with Roman Catholic, whatever it might be.

I had a conversation Monday with a guy about the meaning of life and death. I mean, he's back from Iraq he saw lots of things there and and It opened up an opportunity to talk about those things and You don't have forever and You don't just want to hand him a tract you want to give him something more but you're you know You can't have stuff with you all the time unless you're one of those really geeky people who walks on the backpack or something like that and so.

The thought struck my mind and someone in channel claims that he came up with this first. I have no recollection of that ever. But anyway, I'm a jump drive type guy. I love jump drives. You know like churches that have me in you know.

Sometimes in the hotel room they have a little bag of goodies. Oh, yeah throw a jump drive in there. I love. Just I love them in all sorts of different colors and sizes and stuff like I have a 32 gigabyte jump drive.

It's ridiculous. Anyway, I love these little jump drives. They're very easy to carry around. And I was looking at one of them. I use this one source where you can get if you buy you get free laser engraving on it and stuff like that.

They've got all like 16 different colors and all that kind of stuff. And all of a sudden it crossed my mind. What would what would we do? Well, how cool would it be if I would have been able to hand this fellow a jump drive?

That had on it. Let's say we have a jump drive. My first thought was just this one and then I started realizing we could do this for a bunch of different groups but had on it the John dominant cross and debate on the reliability of the Gospels the cross and Borg debate, which is that available yet?

Cross and Borg resurrection. Well, we need to get the cross and Borg resurrection one up because we've got the recording done. So it should just be a matter of Spitting it out. I think. But the cross and Borg debate on the resurrection.

The Bart Ehrman debate on the Bible and the Dan Barker to ban the existence of God. Along with a little 29 minute. Why I'm a Christian a thing that I did a number of years ago back in New Jersey. In fact of the same church, I'll be speaking at New Jersey in actually a matter of weeks.

There you've got four debates good debates very useful debates plus a gospel presentation plus a we maybe we can get Haseem son of Ramallah king of graphics to do a something when you pop it in this this would come up and and You know would allow you to load it on your machine or play or whatever.

I don't want to get too complicated with it. Most people today know how to handle an mp3. People who have computers and stuff, especially younger people have that kind of stuff. And so you we would have something by color or by a laser inscription it would be Identified as you know a defense the Christian faith or something like that and you could hand this to this person and They could go away with that and you let's say they had had some questions about the resurrection you said, you know There's a debate on here Between James White and Jim Renahan representing the Christian side and John Dominic Ross and Marcus Borg on the other side on the subject of of the resurrection and you might find a lot of your questions answered in that and The neat thing is you'll hear both sides and you'll be able to see here how both sides handle the same information.

And I think a lot of folks would then be attracted to listening to the other Debates that are available there and then they can follow up with the with the link to the website to get more information.

We could do that. For for you know general issues. Obviously we could do one on Mormonism. We could do one on Roman Catholicism and we could do one on Islam as well we've got plenty of material these days to pull from that's for sure and so we could put those debates on there and Provide these jump drives now, I'm already hearing the wheels turning in other people's minds.

Well, we could do the same thing. Well, yeah, you could I suppose but Obviously what we would try to do is if we're buying a bunch of jump drives in bulk. You can get a little bit of a price break on them.

And what we're doing is we're doing this, you know. We technically own those things and so we're doing this and saying give it away. Go ahead and give it away and somebody say oh I could buy that and get the stuff cheaper.

And I wouldn't have to buy them one by one and I could get it cheaper. Well, if you want to rip us off of four or five bucks, you know, you could do that I suppose but my idea is that most of the people who would be doing this would actually you know have the proper spirit of things and would be would be doing this as a means of of witness and Greater witness, so I'd like to know who would want to do who would want to us to do something like that.

I need to know what kind of interest there would be out there right now I'm looking at. If we if we started with 200 jump drives, we could get them for seven bucks each with it with the engraving and then.

Of course the you know, putting the mp3s and stuff on that wouldn't take all that much time. But somebody'd have to be doing it and so there'd be an initial investment, you know to get started, but I just have a feeling that knowing the people that I know a lot of the the folks that listen to the dividing line would love to have a selection of those with them when they're Just going around.

Because they get into these kind of types conversations and would be able like to be able to hand somebody something like that and say here Here's here's the resources you want to look at let's let's get together again and and to talk about this I have you have to have an opportunity.

I mean can imagine like on Rome Catholicism. We put all the Pacwa debates on there. And say here here is here is one of the best scholars you have from the Roman Catholic side and here. You have the papacy sola scriptura the priesthood justification the mass.

Have you ever heard the other side? You want to hear how this can be done? Respectfully without ad hominem without the way that people like Steve Ray and Art Sippo behave here. Let's listen to that so.

That would I think be a really really neat thing to do especially if we can make it affordable. And not quite a business in process, so let us know I would like to know Jump on the website and and to drop us an email.

Give us a call today eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let us know and channel I've already seen a few people. In channel some people are asking. What is a jump drive. Rich suggested we call these jump tracks.

I think that's a very good idea jump tracks. But jump drives are universal as far as I can tell if as long as you've got a PC my my Mac uses them just fine and so there's something that that would absolutely be Tremendously useful.

I think in in the witnessing situation I'm trying to focus here, but unfortunately we have some folks out in the studio audience that are really.

Somebody has suggested that this might be our version of the jump the shark. We don't want to jump the tracks. You know.

Like I said, I really wish that the studio audience was under control and. Anyway. Let us know if that would be something you would you would be interested in doing because that that kind of investment is is.

In this economy is a lot, and I I don't want to do something that would end up sitting there on the on the shelf. Either, but I have a feeling we'd probably go through them pretty quickly and be making another order fairly fast to be honest with you.

So let us know about the your interest in the jump tracks. I Have some really cool clips to play. Thanks to James Swan. He has been providing us with has been providing me with clips from Steve Ray and Carl Keating and since the call.

Roman Catholic Apologetics and the Catechism on Muslims

One caller we have right now is on Roman Catholicism. I guess it all sort of fits together, so let's go ahead and take Chris in Indianapolis. Hi Chris. Oh, I'm a new listener and first-time caller actually.

Well excellent. Thanks. Thanks for being out there.

It is absolutely ironic that you mentioned about the jump drives because that is something that I had personally thought about doing so. With several my friends that I'm currently Engaged in Roman Catholic apologetics with and on the jump drive to give to some of my friends.

Oh, there you go praise the Lord in this Providence, so that so that would probably be something you would. That's is that a yes vote. Yeah.

I've two questions really and the first one is Relating to this long-running debate that's recently been kicked into high gear that I've been having with a friend of mine. I'm a Reformed Baptist just to let you know enrolled at Southern Seminary in Louisville actually not going to be a pastor.

Mm-hmm, and he is a very intelligent to the dark side. And one of the arguments that he read that is I believe in the fourth from Scott Hahn right? Yeah, the fourth cup stuff exactly and I was gonna ask you.

What is the most cogent biblical slash Protestant refutation of that?

In print I'm You know I've looked around for anyone who has Written anything in response to that presentation, and I am NOT familiar with anything at all I really don't know of anyone who has has done that it's one of the six or seven Roman Catholic areas Where you go man?

It'd be really worthwhile if someone would take the time I don't know if it's because it's politically incorrect to Address that kind of stuff or or just just what it is, but It may have to do with the fact that that to meaningfully interact with These things would and and I've even thought about doing it, but again There's just so many hours in today it what you'd have to do to do it and since you're in seminary You have all the time in the world.

We should just sign it to you but but what would be required would be first of all an in-depth analysis of Just how accurate current Seder representations are. I've I'm aware of the fact Baruch Mayos, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but he's a Reformed Baptist pastor in Israel he has been longtime pastor of the the only Reformed Baptist Church that I know of in Israel and Very large congregation.

It's quite elderly now and Baruch however had Made a presentation once at our church where he Specifically pointed out that a lot of this the the Passover Seder Presentations that Evangelicals like to have at their churches and stuff Are really highly suspect as far as their accuracy goes as to what?

The Passover was actually like at the time of Jesus This goes back to another major area that I have done a lot of study on but it was back right when I was in Seminary, which is a long time ago, which was the the fact that you can't simply assume that's because something is found in the Mishnah Which is codified 200 250 years after the time of Christ you can't necessarily assume that that's Accurately representing what the situation was to two and a half centuries earlier.

And so how much do we really know of the actual form of The Passover meal to be able to make the kinds of connections that that particular argument makes that's the first thing and that's that would take a lot of time and effort and Maybe that's why it hasn't hasn't been done.

The second thing that would have to be dealt with of course is the the entire approach of the nature of the Atonement and that certainly is is extremely valuable needs to be done, but Unfortunately, it's just here that so many of those who respond to Roman Catholicism And I can say this to you being a fellow Reformed Baptist.

So many of those reformed who respond to Roman Catholicism have a what we would identify as sub biblical view of the Atonement the purpose of the Atonement the intention the Atonement and the book of Hebrews would have to Be very central to any any presentation on the subject and sadly and in a lot of evangelicals and today The book of Hebrews is somewhat of a closed book because of its reliance upon the Old Testament and things like that.

And so Non-reformed apologetical responses would tend to focus on completely different aspects of the issue than what really needs to be focused upon and that is The intention of God in the Atonement and the result of the Atonement and the the finished work and so on and so forth.

And so, you know, where do you cut that off? You have to deal with all of those those issues to deal with that particular argumentation. So Obviously I have thought about what needs to be done to put together a full appropriate response, but it's it's doing it and It's one of those There's I can think of a probably five or six topics in almost all of the major areas of studied Where there are things I wish I had had time to do when I was especially focused upon that area And would like to get back to I want to I want to deal in fact We're gonna be doing dealing a little bit later on the program here with the issue of the priesthood in Roman Catholicism In fact, the whole program is probably Roman Catholicism.

So you'll find it interesting. I hope.

Right, I actually had my second question regarding that it was just a a little logical thought that I had and it's in regards to. Ultimately the establishment of the priesthood and the Catholics dogmatically hold that Jesus instituted the priesthood there during the Passover meal Eucharist Lord's Supper and that a priest is needed to reoffer Represent the sacrifice of Jesus there in the mass and since Judas Iscariot was present at Jesus words of consecration according to Luke 22 19 through 23.

And since Jesus knew long before that that Judas Iscariot was quote the devil the son of perdition. Wouldn't it be a serious if not mortal sin for Jesus to knowingly make a priest out of an unbeliever?

Especially one possessed either at that very moment or shortly thereafter by Satan himself. Since we all know Jesus never sinned wouldn't that logically mean that Jesus didn't actually institute the priesthood.

At least then and therefore since no priest were present other than Jesus the great high priest a Sacrifice of the real presence could not have been made and since scripture doesn't even hint at. Nor do the Roman Catholic dogmas define any other possible time of the institution of the priesthood.

Wouldn't a logical conclusion therefore be that the real presence didn't exist at the Lord's Supper and therefore doesn't exist today. I just thought of that the other day off the top of my head and was curious as to what your thoughts were on that the only.

I'm gonna play Steve Ray giving that presentation about How the priesthood was established in the upper room here just in a moment. The only thing in that that caught my attention that I would have to look at is I think the issue of when Judas leaves is one of the synoptic issues that you would probably want to look at a little bit more closely before you press forward with that the.

Encountered that according to the MacArthur study Bible, but.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's the that's the only thing is I was listening to it that immediately popped in my head was well, that's I that's one of the things I have on my list to possibly deal with in the ermine response.

It's one of the synoptic parallel issues that one has to deal with and so. That would be the only thing that would make me go. You that's really foundational to the art. That is the foundation of that argument.

So you'd want to make sure you've got that one nailed down firmly. Before you before you proceeded with it.

Okay and and one final question if I could briefly beg of you in regards to the Perpetuatory nature of the mass and the atonement itself. Obviously anytime that the mass is taken in it's a finite level of propitiation is applied and whatever is not Accomplished there and the life is done taken over by a finite time spent in purgatory, but my Thought is that if an infinite number of finite times applied to the mass Subtracted from an infinite debt load of sin is still infinite.

So are there any scripture verses that either directly or indirectly talk about how sin as an infinite a finite amount of? Suffering or purging or Propitiation be applied make it an infinite Jump to perfection so that the Catholics can therefore go to heaven.

Well, I I'm listening to that as trying to think as a Catholic would respond to it and I believe that a Catholic would respond to that somewhere along the lines of saying well the the you need to differentiate between the eternal debt of sin and the temporal and The one is is forgiven Sacramentally the other is not.

Well, it is but but not completely so they just since they make that distinction. They would say well the eternal debt the eternal weight of one's sin is dealt with through initially by baptism and justification and the sacramental means of that and then the purgatory issue is is not The eternal weight of sin.

It is the temporal weight of sin. And so they wouldn't so you'd have to focus upon the non-existence of that differentiation I think to actually make that argument run because they would respond by saying well we differentiate between these these Classifications recognizing that the eternal weight has to be dealt with in a different way than the temporal does.

Thank you for clarifying that. All righty, sir. Thank you very much. Thanks for calling Alright, god bless. Bye. Bye. Well, it's nice to have new listeners out there, especially in Indianapolis where we just were Speaking of which let's go ahead and get to our clips here.

The Catechism, Lumen Gentium, and Roman Catholic Claims About Muslims

I wanted to listen to a once again, I maybe I'm just mean or something, but Roman Catholic apologists have a very difficult job they have a Internally inconsistent Massive body of literature that they have to defend, you know, they want to tell us sola scriptura is our Achilles heel.

Well, what do you offer in place of sola scriptura? Well, we have the Magisterium. Well, how do we know what the Magisterium did? Well, you've got you know. You've got all these dogmatic canons and decrees and all the rest of stuff and then you've got the Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church well the Universal Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church has section 841 in it that talks about the subject of the Muslims.

And I have my handy-dandy Catechism right here and it's right next to me and It says this is on page 242 of the paperback edition. The church's relationship with the Muslims the plan of salvation also includes Those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.

These profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us. They adore the one merciful God mankind's judge in the last day now. Some of you may have heard the debate that I had was the last Roman Catholic debate we had.

Was it last Roman Catholic debate we had on Long Island? I think no second to last second last anyways, yes, and we talked about this subject ad nauseum and my my opponent really struggled mightily to deal with this particular text because Words have meaning and Here is the real key when the text says and together with us.

They adore the one merciful God and Yesterday in channel. I asked a turret and fan to track down for me the Latin version of that. Which he did very quickly on the web. It was Adirond which comes from Adirondack adoramos.

To adore that is a high word of worship in Roman Catholic theology and this says That they together with us Adore the one merciful God now I don't know how you can get around the fact that the Universal Catholic Catechism is saying that the Muslims are Truly worshiping God when they worship Allah.

Now, of course, they believe that Jesus is but a mighty prophet so I don't know how that works, but that's what the Universal Catholic Catechism says and Is that not identified. Was that not identified by the Pope when it was released as a as an authoritative?

Compendium of the church's teaching. Well, of course it is it was. So, let's listen to a caller because you know Catholics struggle with this it doesn't make any sense. It is a self-contradictory perspective.

I can guarantee you there was nobody at the Council of Florence that ever dreamed That a bishop of Rome would ever sign off on anything like that. I assure you of that. But be that as it may let's listen to a phone call that Carl Keating took.

I was at an anti-catholic contact me over the internet the other day and I don't have my catechism with me but he quoted something out of the catechism with regard to Muslims and salvation and basically stating that Catholics Pray to the same God Allah as Muslims.

Any any backed up the fact it up a statement out of the catechism. You I don't know if you have in front of you, but matter of fact I do.

Elaborate on that. Yeah, let me start backwards here. First of all, the word Allah simply means God and Christians in the Middle East Catholics in particular Use the word Allah in the mass that's in an everyday speech.

That's simply the word for God. So don't consider Allah to be a formal name. Any different say from the word God for us, okay the passage in the catechism is Paragraph 841 very short. It reads this way the plan of salvation.

Also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us. They adore the one merciful God mankind's judge on the last day a Couple things can be said here.

First of all, this doesn't say that their religion is correct. It simply says most that they acknowledge that there's one God and that's the same God that we acknowledge. Because after all there is only one God there is here a slight possibility though of Nuance I Admit.

I haven't looked that up in the original the way I would like yet. But it describes the Muslims as these profess to hold the faith of Abraham. The word profess could be taken in two ways. One is to profess something is to acknowledge.

This is what I believe another sense of professors to claim to Hold a particular thing. Okay, so this might be interpreted as they profess that as they claim to hold the faith of Abraham but maybe they don't quite hold it the way say the Jews did or Christians today do all right, so I'm not really sure to what extent the original text of The Catechism allows that kind of leeway and interpretation but anyways, at least this says that Muslims do claim to be following the faith of Abraham and They adore one merciful God.

Which of course is what we also do now. Did you catch that at the end?

It does not say they adore one merciful God, which is what we also do. It says they together with us. It isn't that what it says and together with us they adore the one merciful God. You can't get around the fact that this is saying that the Muslims adore they give adoramos to the one merciful God, even though They deny the Trinity.

How can you adore the triune God if you deny the Trinity? It makes no sense and Isn't it weird? That Carl Keating has been doing this for like almost 30 years. How many times has this one question come up?

In On Catholic answers live and he's never looked up the Latin on it. I mean if I had to defend this thing, I'd I mean I'd be in it all the time I'm just totally left. Befuddled besides this is actually a quotation.

It's a quote and he didn't mention this. I don't know why. It's a quotation from Lumen Gentium 16. This is Vatican 2 speaking. You want to tell me that what Vatican 2 was saying in Lumen Gentium? Was actually that well they profess.

But don't really of course not Lumen Gentium was meant to be as touchy-feely ecumenical as it could be along those lines and so How can you really come up with this idea that well what it was really saying was they they profess to but they don't really on The same level as us blah blah blah blah blah.

That's not the context of Lumen Gentium and so here you have this statement from from the Catholic Catechism and what it says is what it says and It is a thorn in the side of any Roman Catholic apologist who wants to even try to become consistent.

How many times have we played? Tim Staples and other people trying to get around this. I think we've played Aiken. We've played Staples. I think we've played Ray and they all tap dance spin around and say oh look at that shiny thing over there and Try to get away from it as fast as possible.

Because they just can't deal with it. It is a big big problem. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take our break and be back with some Steve Ray right after this.

Steve Ray on the Priesthood, the Eucharist, and Apostolic Ministry

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Thank you.

All right, I had seen a.

Notification. My RSS feeds that Steve Ray was gonna be on Catholic answers live talking about the priesthood which I Was really looking forward to. Here's here's something that should should get your attention Steve.

Welcome back.

Well, thank you Patrick. Good to be here. Now you get literally welcome back. You were literally get that back and tell us a little bit about that trip.

And I had a great time. My wife and I were invited by the legionaries at the Regina Apostolorum University in Rome to do a very intensive week-long. We were there each day five days talking explaining apologetics an intro to apologetics two classes on Mary a class on Two classes on authority one on the Bible scripture and tradition another one on Peter and the papacy.

And we had a class called the ten fingers. They were the ten Classic questions that get asked to Catholics over and over again. Although we've answered them a million times and on Catholic answers I think you've answered them a billion times and they still say the same thing.

Why did you. Why do you call priest father? Why do you pray repetitive vein repetitive prayers these kind of things? Sure.

Why do you make up the numbers like 33 ,000 and why do you misrepresent Athanasius and.

He does definitely has some zingers. I did a whole course and the PhD candidates all got credits for it and catch that.

PhD credit for listening to former Baptist Steve Ray massacre apologetics. Wow. If that's what's coming out of Roman Catholic higher education. Apologetically speaking if you're having Steve Ray a guy whose materials are riddled with errors that have been Documented and he refuses.

When when refuted he just goes. Oh, they're just a bunch of mean right and I Catholics and everything. Yeah. Oh my. Things are hot. Well on the far side of the tiber. That the forts are unmanned currently.

Speaking of which let's let's listen to a discussion here. I want to get to one. Let's let's see which which this one is first now.

There's a lot of listeners out there who are not Catholic from all walks of life religion and none and so. They're they're looking in on this this discussion. They may be asking why do Catholics have priests at all for Protestants listening?

They may think well, I'm baptized. I have the royal priesthood. So why do we need priest Steve Ray?

No, I like to say it. Because that's the way Jesus Created this church. It's not up to us. We like it to be we have to go back and say what did Jesus actually begin? What was instituted by him? How did he intend this thing to grow and the fact is that we have priests today in the church?