Equipping Eve Episode 5: On Women, Roles and Hillsong

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Is the church today doing everything it can to provide women a firm foundation of truth in Christ Jesus?

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Well, it's true, there's no shortage of candy -coated Bible studies, potluck fellowships available to ladies.

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But beyond Sunday morning, are Christian women being properly equipped to stand against the same deceptions that even enticed

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Eve in the garden? In an attempt to address the need for trustworthy, biblical resources for women,

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No Compromise Radio is happy to introduce Equipping Eve, a ladies -only radio show that seeks to equip women with fruits of truth in an age that's ripe with deception.

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My name is Mike Ebendroth and I'm pleased to introduce your host, Erin Benzinger, a friend of No Compromise Radio and a woman who wants to see other women equipped with a love for and a knowledge of the truth of God's Word.

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Well, hello ladies, welcome to Equipping Eve. I'm your host, Erin Benzinger, and this is the show where we seek to equip women with the truth, fruits of truth from God's Word, so that we can recognize error when we are confronted with distortions and contradictions of God's Word.

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If we are so familiar and infused with the truth, we will be able to recognize error when we are confronted with it, and we will be able to stand strong against it upon the firm foundation of Scripture.

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So that's what we seek to do here, and I have to tell you, every time

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I greet you ladies, every time I record one of these shows and say, welcome to Equipping Eve, for some reason

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I think to myself about the I Love Lucy fight of me to Benjamin episode.

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This is completely, has nothing to do with the show for the day, but I think about that and I think of how

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Lucy stood there and said, hello friends, I'm your I love you to Benjamin girl. Are you tired, run down, listless?

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For some reason I feel a little bit like that, but thankfully we're not trying to shill or sell anything today.

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This is not an infomercial, this is just where we open up God's Word and see what he has to say about some of the crazy things that are going on in evangelicalism.

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So let's see, what kind of announcements can I give you before we get started?

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You can find Equipping Eve on Twitter, that's at Equipping Eve. We're also on Facebook.

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Do you like how I used the royal we there? We are on Facebook. Actually it's pretty much just me and my office.

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Actually I do have a cat here with me today, but yeah, there's no big fancy Equipping Eve staff.

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It's pretty much just me, but the guys at No Compromise Radio are fantastic with their editing work and getting the show up and running every other week.

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So I'm really thankful to them. So other than that, it's just me.

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So I guess we'll use the royal we and just go from there. So yes, Twitter, Facebook, there is a website

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EquippingEve .com or .org. They both work. Hopefully by the time this show airs, there will be some content up there.

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Moving forward, we definitely will have new updates, new posts, in addition to linking you to the podcast every other week that we air.

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So that's that. Those are the updates. That's the boring stuff to get that out of the way.

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So now, why don't we just jump into what we're going to talk about today.

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And before I give you exactly what we're going to discuss, let's just open our Bibles and go straight to the

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Word of God. And open your Bibles, ladies, to Galatians 3. Galatians 3, verse 26 reads,

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For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

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There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

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You know, at the foot of the cross, we are all equal, aren't we? Each one of us is a sinner, we're in need of a

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Savior. We are unable to save ourselves, whether we are Jew or Gentile, man or woman, rich or poor.

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However, Christ breaks down these exterior barriers, and he brings each person whom he has called, and he draws each one of us to himself, regardless of our status in this earthly life.

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Ephesians 2, if you flip over to Ephesians 2, verse 13, it reads,

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But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

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For he himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in his flesh the enmity which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in himself he might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

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So what does all this mean? Where am I going with this? Men and women are equal before Christ, are we not?

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I don't think anybody, any true Christian, would argue that. Equal in standing, equal in spiritual status, if you will, but are we equal in role?

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See now we start to venture into what some consider touchy territory, and that's a controversial place to go, and that is the role of women and men in the church.

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And so that's what I want to discuss today, and we certainly can't cover this topic in its entirety, and we will revisit it probably time and time again here.

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It's incredibly relevant today because we have seen in recent decades, and probably longer, a growing trend toward what could be called evangelical feminism.

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And it's this notion that has been taken from the world that women are equal and women should be able to do everything that men can do within the church.

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And it's true that God has gifted women, God has called and commanded women to fulfill great needs and roles within the church, but are those the same needs and roles that he has called men to fulfill?

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And it's important to remember that not all men are called to fulfill the same roles even.

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If every Christian man was a pastor, we'd have a very weird -looking church, but God has gifted each one of us uniquely to fulfill a role within the body of Christ so that we all come together and work together to be a fully functioning body.

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So this notion of evangelical feminism, as I said, it's been running rampant for quite some time now.

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In fact, back in 1986, John MacArthur would say, quote,

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And the church for years, committed to certain standards of behavior for men and women, is systematically and rather progressively throwing aside all of its former doctrines in favor of newer ones.

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I am amazed, says John MacArthur, at how many evangelical churches, schools, and even seminaries are fast jettisoning things that they have for all their life long held to be biblical truths.

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But nonetheless, the church, which is to be the last bastion of the truth of God, is falling fast to the march of the feminist army.

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End quote. That was 1986. 1986!

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That was almost three decades ago. I mean, think back to how old you were in 1986.

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28 years ago that John MacArthur spoke those true, true words. And at the time, they were absolutely, positively relevant, and today they're even more relevant because we have not seen any sort of reversal toward this tumble down the slope of evangelical feminism.

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We're surrounded by this idea, and it's very easy for us to see it in the world.

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You know, there's definitely a prevailing liberal mindset in the world that is dominated by this idea of feminism.

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In fact, I read an article the other day, it was written by a man, actually, and it was not about Christian evangelical feminism, just in general, and this man was explaining why he doesn't hold doors open for women.

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And surprisingly, it wasn't because he had been berated for doing so, he hadn't been yelled at by an angry feminist or anything, but he actually was a feminist himself and truly seemed to believe that holding a door open for a woman, or even teaching his young son to do so, would actually be offensive, that women should be offended if men hold the door open for them.

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So it was just one example of how this liberal feminist mindset has infiltrated even into men, and how many of us ladies know that it seems more and more rare that men will just hold the door open, you know, when we're coming and going.

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Evangelical feminism that MacArthur spoke about, as I said, it's still flourishing, it's growing and being perpetuated by quote -unquote

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Christian celebrities, and that's why it is flourishing, because the people who are promoting this idea, and they're not outwardly saying, hey,

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I'm an evangelical feminist, but by their actions and their behavior, they are promoting it.

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And it's because they are popular, and they appeal to the world, and they appeal to what some call carnal

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Christianity, even though there really is no such thing, it would just be false Christianity, but because they appeal to these more worldly minds, they are helping to perpetuate this blight upon the church.

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And it's only gotten worse as the church has capitulated and catered to this sinful tendency, and it is a tendency of our fallen selves, and why is it sinful?

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Because it overturns the God -ordained order. You see, God created the notion of headship pre -fall, before Adam and Eve sinned, the notion of headship was already there and ordained by God.

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Genesis 2 .18, we see that, the Lord God said, it's not good for the man to be alone, I'll make him a helper suitable for him.

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Make him a helper. So already we have this notion of headship. In the book,

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Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, there's a chapter entitled, Male -Female Equality and Male Headship, and that chapter is written by Ray Ortlund.

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And he writes, quote, God created male headship as one aspect of our pre -fall perfection.

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Therefore, while many women today need release from male domination, the liberating alternative is not female rivalry or autonomy, but male headship wedded to female help.

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Christian redemption does not redefine creation, it restores creation, so that wives learn godly submission and husbands learn godly headship.

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And what's really important there is the distinction that Ortlund is making between male headship and male domination.

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The concept of headship is gleaned from the model of Christ being the head of the church, and likewise the husband is the head of the wife, so we see that in 1

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Corinthians 11 .3, Ephesians 5 .23, but male domination is the antithesis of this, see if you can say that three times fast, the antithesis of this.

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Why I chose to say that, I'll never know. Say it three times fast, but male domination is completely contradictory to male headship.

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Male domination, the man is asserting his will over the woman's will with no regard for her spiritual equality, rights, or value, and Ortlund explains that in that same chapter.

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So it's really crucial that we understand the difference and understand that even the

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Christian who holds to complementarian thinking, that men and women have different roles within the church, as opposed to egalitarian thinking, that men and women should have equal roles within the church, even the complementarian, the true

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Christian complementarian, would denounce this idea of male domination, so it's really important that we recognize that.

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But evangelical feminism, Ortlund goes on to explain that evangelical feminism argues that God created man and woman as equals, in a sense that excludes even male headship, and this evangelical feminism, those who hold to that, do not distinguish between male headship and male domination, they just see that it's all one, there's no distinction, and that it was imposed upon Eve as a penalty for her part in the fall.

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So in the mindset then of those who hold to this notion, a woman's redemption in Christ, says

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Ortlund, releases her from the punishment of male headship. But as we saw,

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Genesis 2, 18, headship had already been established before the fall.

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So there's the error right there that the evangelical feminists are making. And instead, what happened at the fall is that God -ordained order was overturned.

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That's actually what we see in Genesis 3. In Genesis 3, 16,

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God says to the woman, I will greatly multiply your pain and childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children, yet your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.

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So that's where we see that the curse is what brought this overturning of what

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God had already ordained as headship. But we see the curse played out through history, don't we?

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We see it played out as mankind just perpetuated this distortion of roles of men and women within the church.

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You know, the world is one thing, secular society is one thing. We don't expect them to follow the

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God -ordained order, but the church, that's Christ's own body. We are to follow the

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God -ordained order, and redemption, as we heard earlier,

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Christian redemption does not redefine creation, it restores it, and headship was ordained at creation.

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So when we are redeemed, that order is restored. So why am

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I going on and on about this? We've been talking about male headship, male domination, looking at scripture, that we are equal at the foot of the cross, there is no distinction, man or woman, slave or free before Christ, equal in our spiritual standing, but we have differing roles as women.

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Paul wrote that to Timothy, in 1 Timothy 2, he gives some instructions for women, and in verse 11, he says a woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.

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I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet, for it was

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Adam who was first created, and then Eve, and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.

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And so, why is this important? Why are verses like this important?

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Because in the church today, women are wanting to ignore verses like this.

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Women are wanting to have equality with men in all roles, and the most dangerous of this is that women are standing up and teaching mixed audiences, and as I alluded to earlier, this is happening, and we're seeing it perpetuated by Christian celebrities, using the term

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Christian loosely sometimes. Women who are willing to stand up and teach mixed audiences usurp the role of the pastor within the church, stand in the pulpit of a pastor, again, using the term pulpit loosely because most churches don't even have one of those nowadays, but there are plenty of seeker -driven pastors who are willing to have their wives stand up and teach on a

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Sunday morning, multiple Sunday mornings, maybe a whole sermon series. We've seen Kay Warren, Rick Warren's wife, do this.

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We've seen Holly Furtick, Stephen Furtick's wife, do this. We see women filling in for men on Sunday mornings.

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They've traveled to other churches. Kay Warren has done this. Beth Moore has filled in at Louis Giglio's church in the past.

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So we see that women are very willing to stand up and take that role of pastor, whether it be for one week or multiple weeks, and they continue to do it.

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And so one example that I wanted to speak to today is

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Hillsong Church. Now, Hillsong Church is based in Australia, but they have campuses all over the world.

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I'm actually looking at the website right now. They have their Australia campuses. They have one in London, Kiev, South Africa, New York, France, Stockholm, Germany, Amsterdam, Barcelona, L .A.,

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and Copenhagen, and they are growing. And that's just a little background.

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It's a seeker -sensitive church. You'll see WordFaith -type teachings coming from that church.

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It was co -founded and is co -pastored by Pastor Brian Houston and his wife.

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Pastor, I'm using air quotes, Bobby Houston. So I came across this article not too long ago in the

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Christian Post, and it's called, the title of the article is, Pastor Bobby Houston explains why

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Hillsong Church does not, quote, sideline the girls. It's written by Nicola Menzi.

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It was actually published in October, but it really demonstrates the problem that we're seeing in evangelicalism today.

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So I've already talked too long here, but let's just work through this article really quickly, and really,

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I encourage you to search for this article online because some of it you almost have to see in print to believe that someone actually said this.

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So let's see, the article begins, Hillsong Church co -founder Bobby Houston recently explained why she believes, quote, the church needs to come of age sometimes and just grow up when it comes to fully embracing women in various roles in Christian ministry.

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Quote, says Bobby Houston, it's a good question, and for some, it's a theological debate. For us, it's never been that, said

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Houston. So Bobby Houston says that the role of women in the church has never been a theological debate for them at Hillsong Church.

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It's essentially what she's saying, but the problem is it should be a theological debate because it's in the

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Bible, the issue of women within the church is in the Bible. We just read from 1

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Timothy 2. So there's your first problem.

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The article goes on, and Bobby Houston is quoted as saying, it's basically, we just have a conviction and a belief that Jesus Christ created men and women together and said to them together, go multiply, be blessed, have dominion, flourish in life, be awesome.

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I don't know what translation she's using, ladies. I don't have my copy of the message in front of me, but you didn't know that you were just called to go out and be awesome, did you?

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I bet you didn't know that. So now Bobby Houston, she's a pastor, you know, supposedly, so I'm sure she's right on this.

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So go on, ladies, go on. You go and be awesome. Oh dear. Okay. She goes on to say, so our experience, so the experience of Hillsong, which clearly triumphs scripture, is that women have always been on the page, always been invited in, always welcomed.

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Well, no one's ever argued that women have always been invited in, women have always been welcomed by God.

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That's kind of beside the point. We started out the show reading from Galatians 3, right?

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Galatians 3 .28, neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, you're all one in Christ Jesus.

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So she's kind of trying to build up this straw man that doesn't exist, but she's trying.

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Okay. The article goes on and says, again, still quoting Bobby Houston, quote, I personally believe that there's a wealth of fabulous potential within the feminine heart.

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And I think down through history, it's been quenched at times. I think that, you know, the secular world doesn't have an issue with women.

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And I think really the church needs to come of age sometimes and just grow up and realize that there's a wealth of wonder and goodness and potential and all sorts of things within the feminine heart.

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Let me stop there. Yeah. There's also wickedness and deceit within the feminine heart, the male heart.

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Take your pick. The human heart is wicked and deceitful and desperately sick.

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Who can understand it? But, you know, I digress. And Bobby Houston continues, together we can actually make the church more beautiful and more vibrant and more relevant to society.

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Yeah. So, Bobby Houston says that there's a wealth of fabulous potential within the feminine heart.

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And down through history, it's just been quenched at times. And you know, so we need to grow up here in the church and we need to be more like the secular world.

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That's essentially what she said. It's almost exactly what she said. She said the secular world doesn't have an issue with women and the church needs to come of age and grow up.

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So I ask you, Bobby Houston, we started modeling the church after the world when exactly?

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Oh, that's right. That was when we started scratching itching ears. Okay. Got it.

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There we go. Here's the thing, ladies. If the secular world says it's okay, we probably don't want to model ourselves after that.

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Isn't that kind of what scripture tells us? Isn't it a fact that as Christians, if we are saved, we are called to be separate from the world, called out of the world, set apart by God?

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You know, because here's the thing, here's the thing. The secular world doesn't have an issue with women, says

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Bobby Houston. There's a few other things the secular world doesn't have a problem with. The secular world doesn't have a problem with killing babies.

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The secular world doesn't have a problem with homosexual marriage.

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So should the church just, you know, come of age and just, you know, grow up when it comes to those things?

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Hillsong Church is probably the wrong church, and I'm using their quotes, to ask. But we are called out of the world when we're saved.

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It's the most magnificent thing about salvation. We are a former of lives, our former selves are killed, put to death, and we are made a new creation in Christ, are we not?

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I mean, if you were saved older in life, then you lived in that world a lot more than those who were saved younger, as children, young teenagers.

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And you know what you used to be, and you know what you are now. And you have no desire to be or even remotely reflect that person that you used to be.

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Romans 12, 2 says, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

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And our minds are transformed when we know the truth of God's word. And we are immersed in that truth.

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But Bobby Houston apparently has no regard for the word, because as we read earlier in 1

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Timothy, women are called to remain quiet in church.

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And a lot of women kind of bristle at this idea that women are to learn quietly with all submissiveness. But there's cultural realities to that as well, that women weren't typically welcomed into the worship service.

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It was kind of like, well, if you want to come, you can come, in Jewish and Greek society. And so Paul was essentially commanding that women be there.

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So the fact that they were to be in the service and to be learning and hearing the truth of God's word proclaimed, that was huge for them.

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And that would have been a great joy. And why is it important for women to learn and to be instructed in the word of God?

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Because women do have these grand ministry opportunities to raise godly children.

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And we see that 1 Timothy 2 .15, to instruct fellow women in the faith. You know, think about Timothy, to whom

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Paul was writing here in Paul's second letter to Timothy, right in his greeting in 2

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Timothy 1 .5, Paul writes, for I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother

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Lois and your mother Eunice. And I'm sure it's in you as well. Where would the early church and us today be without Timothy's mother and grandmother?

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It's so important that women are present to hear the truth of God proclaimed.

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It's so important that women do know the truth of God's word and study the scripture for themselves. That's why the show exists.

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But we still have separate, distinct roles within the church, separate from what men are called to do.

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Men are called to be the preachers and proclaimers and teachers of the mixed audiences.

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Women can teach other women. We see that in Titus 2. We see older women training the younger women.

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And it's okay that God does not call us ladies to stand behind the pulpit.

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It's okay. And we should thank the Lord for the role that he has ordained for us and seek and desire to be obedient to him as we exercise that role within our lives.

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So Hillsong Church wants to look like the world and wants to welcome women into all kinds of roles of leadership and this and that.

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Well, that's fine. Hillsong Church can look like the world all they want, but they need to stop calling themselves a church.

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And they may seek to not sideline the girls, but they are doing so in direct disobedience to the word of God.

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There is a place for women to serve, whether you're young or old or married or single or widowed.

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And Jesus' own ministry demonstrated that he had a heart for women. And that's something that I'd like for us to look at another time, the importance of women in Jesus' ministry.

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But for now, we have to realize that when we seek to usurp the role that God has ordained to be exercised by men, we are turning his will upside down and we're replacing it with a will that reflects the sin of the world in which we live.

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And as I said, we are called out of the world. We are called to be separate. In John 17,

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Jesus prayed to his father, I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

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They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth.

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As you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world for their sakes. I sanctify myself that they also may be sanctified in truth.

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John 15, Jesus said, if the world hates you, know that the world hated me before it hated you. And so, you know what?

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If you stand firm upon the truth and say women are not to be pastors, the world's going to make fun of you.

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The world's going to call you, you know, irrelevant, dated, sexist, whatever.

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It doesn't matter because you know what God has said to be true. John 15, Jesus continues, verse 19, if you were of the world, the world would love you as its own.

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But because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world because of this, the world hates you. First John 2, 15 says, do not love the world nor the things in the world.

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If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him. So Hillsong Church wants to look like the world, but we don't want to look like the world.

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We are not of the world. We have been saved out of the world. We have been set apart from the world to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Bobbi Houston said in this article that by allowing women to disobey

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God, essentially, and take these roles within the church, she says, quote, we can actually make the church more beautiful and more vibrant and more relevant to society.

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No church can be beautiful when it is in blatant, direct disobedience to God.

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But there is no church more beautiful than one that faithfully and obediently proclaims the word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ, tells men and women that they are sinners, that they cannot save themselves, that Jesus Christ lived the life they cannot, that he died for them, that the death they deserve, that he was raised three days later, and that because he lives, because he died and he lives again, we can live forever.

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If we repent of our sin, trust in him alone for our salvation, relying on no works of our own, we will be saved.

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We will be set apart. We'll be called out. That is relevant because everyone is a sinner and everyone is on their way to hell.

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But we cannot rightfully proclaim that gospel if we are doing so in disobedience to the word of God that we claim to believe and claim to preach.

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So, Bobbi Houston, your church may be more beautiful to the world, but it is not more beautiful to God. And it is a shame upon the church of Jesus Christ.

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So I'd call Bobbi Houston to repent and to read the word of God, the word of the

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God that she claims to know. May we never blaspheme our

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God or shame our Lord Jesus Christ by seeking to better blend in with the world of sin.

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Okay, I have run out of time, but before I go, ladies, I want to share something with you because I found this little treasure somewhere.

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I don't know if it was Family Christian Store or Hobby Lobby. Both have really horrible theological products, so it really doesn't matter.

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But I found this little daily calendar type thing. It's not a devotional book.

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It's just a little flip calendar with little sayings and stuff along the way. And it's called, oh, you're going to love this.

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You're going to love this. It's called, are you ready? It's called

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You're Already Amazing. That's right. This is your moment of amazing, ladies.

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You're already amazing. Embracing who you are, becoming all God created you to be.

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And it's written by Holly Gerth. And it's one more example of why

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I say women need solid, trustworthy, biblical resources, because stuff like this is out there and it's marketed toward women, because any man who picks this up has bigger issues.

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It's marketed toward women. It appeals to their emotions and their fluffy, warm, fuzzy desires.

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And it's a problem if we start believing some of the garbage that is in stuff like this.

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So one example, I just turned to January 2nd, the January 2nd. And so you say you have this on your desk and you say,

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OK, it's January 2nd. And you flip, this is what you read for the day. This is what is supposed to inspire you for the day on January 2nd.

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Has anyone told you lately how amazing you are? It's about time you heard it again.

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I hear you saying, who, me? I'm saying right back.

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Yep, you. Yeah, that is the problem with much of what is available to women today.

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You aren't really that amazing, ladies. You're a sinner.

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We've just been talking about this. Without Christ, you are dirty and wicked and disgusting and just, you know, sinful.

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It's true. You're not amazing. Christ. Christ is amazing. Christ is the

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Savior. Christ is the Lord. Christ is the master who purchased his own with his own blood.

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Christ is the one who redeems. Christ is the one who saves. He justifies.

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He sanctifies. He will glorify us. Christ is amazing.

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Us? No, no. May we never glorify ourselves, but preach

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Christ crucified alone. Okay, ladies, I am really out of time.

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Thank you so much for listening. And until the next show, get in your Bibles, get on your knees, and get equipped.

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Thanks so much for listening. You've been listening to Equipping Eve, a no -compromise radio production.

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If you'd like to get a hold of Erin, you can reach her at equippingeve at gmail .com, or you can check out one of our two websites, donotbesurprised .com