On-The-Street: Mormon Temple Conversations

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We love everybody. We don't care. So this would be my question. This would be my question. This would be my question.

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This would be my question. We're the same age. I turned 55 this year too. July? Yes! No way!

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16? Six. So you're older. Yes, I am.

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I'm the only age. What's your ice cream cake? Mint chip, some crumbled Oreos on top. So this would be my question.

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If you're saying you can test it by the fruit, ultimately why would you say what brought you to faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet?

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How did you come to faith in him? Let me just say, let me preface this by saying they're saying their ultimate authority is the personal witness of the

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Holy Spirit. But then I say how can you test to know whether or not that is the Holy Spirit? I will tell you in all honesty

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I have met many people in our church and other churches that wrestle with was it the

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Spirit or not the Spirit, right? And if you were to go to any Christian church here ones that differ from you in fact

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I've been to many Christian churches they will say they are led by the Spirit as they flop on the floor and do all kinds of craziest crap you've ever seen in your life.

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Remember Holy Laughter? You're old enough to remember Holy Laughter. I've been to church. Yeah, I have friends.

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So how do you test it? How do you test whether or not it's the Spirit of God? Ultimately, I think a great example would be in Acts where we see

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Peter having a revelation to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, right? And when he started doing that and then he went back to Jerusalem there were people who were contending, the brethren were contending against him.

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It doesn't say what they said but I have a feeling it was like, what are you doing? Jesus said no.

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Going out into the way of the Samaritans? He explained I had this revelation and they recognized him as the authority

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You're talking about Peter, right? Yes, as a person who can receive revelation on behalf of the church.

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As an apostle. And because of that, the doctrines changed among the brethren they didn't go out and test what he said.

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They already knew he was the guy in charge. So they presupposed that it was true. They presupposed that him as a prophet could speak on behalf of God.

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That's correct. And it says they glorified God and away it went. So there are things the prophet may say that are recognized because they know this man is a prophet of God.

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Now we may not always understand. In fact, I was just reading Josephus a few months ago and it was interesting in there he talks about the arguments the prophets were using in Jerusalem when it was taken over by Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, the

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Babylonians, right? And Nebuchadnezzar had conflicting information he thought.

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Jeremiah was saying you're going to be taken captive into Babylon. And Ezekiel was saying that you'll never see

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Jerusalem. Which seems like a conflict. But both were true because his eyes were plucked out.

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So he was taken to Jerusalem which was according to Jeremiah and he never saw it. I want to clarify.

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Are you saying that there's no way to test the prophet? Yeah, there is. How would you test it? How would we today...

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The organization we have today which Christ set up, the same organization the apostles and prophets that organization continued as one died off, another was called until they were all killed off dependably.

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You're saying the apostles? Yeah, the structure fell. Interestingly enough history calls that period of time the dark ages.

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Which to us is understandable because you remove the light you have dark. You think because there was no living prophet that the light of the gospel was gone?

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That's correct. The light of the gospel was gone? Yes, correct. That revelation stopped.

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So not the gospel. Even the early church fathers, Justin Martyr they bemoaned the fact that revelation was gone.

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Did you look at when the darkness starts? I'm confused. I hear that there is no revelation and I understand that.

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According to that it's about 14 feet 3 inches from the corner which is roughly where we are.

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We can move about 3 feet and we'll be within that jurisdiction. 14 feet 23rds of one foot so it's roughly 3 inches.

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Roughly and that's where the jurisdiction is. In the second world war members of our church If you want us we can take 2 steps over but that's where we're going to stay.

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We'll take about 2 steps and that's where we're going to be. What you're saying is not what that's saying.

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If you want to bring out a tape measure that shows exactly where it is from there then we'll do that. What? What do you make of that?

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To me and to us is that revelation the revelation we have right now is sufficient for the proclamation of the gospel is sufficient for the feeding of the church.

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Probably about right. If you want to get into the sepulchre you can get a police officer. Then there would be no reason for him to sepulchre with apostles and prophets.

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Yeah, sounds good. Let me use the pdf site because that's out of your jurisdiction. That happened in Hebrews 1.

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He sepulchred before that with apostles and prophets. They all died, so why do we need more?

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That's what I'm asking. The same reason why you needed them before they died. I got you.

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What I'm saying is what do we need that scripture is not revealing to us?

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Additional information that you don't have. That was lost from the scriptures? No, his plan isn't over.

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I'm saying is the information that you presented lost from the scriptures? Like Joseph Smith's translation.

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Some, yes. In fact the bible has in it I think I have a list of 22 books of scriptures.

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Real quickly, can we move like 2 feet? We're in the way? No, I think roughly it's like a couple of feet.

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Somewhere along here is church property. I just want to double check we moved like 2 feet. They need to talk to the police because it's out of their jurisdiction.

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They're trying to push what it is. As far as right there, you can work off of the map.

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I would say stay right here or work at that corner. I could agree with that.

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It's profitable to read. We don't think the song of Solomon is the divine revelation. That's what

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I wanted to ask. That's what I wanted to ask. What in scripture do you disagree with?

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How do you come to that conclusion? Because it has no doctrine. It's praise and worship kind of thing but there's...

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How do you know that's true? Joseph Smith. Back to Joseph Smith. And that is infallibly true?

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We would think it's more true than people who were not inspired to put it together, yes. Because the people that put it together were under duress of penalty of death if they didn't come to conclusions to figure out exactly what goes in that Bible.

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I got you, but this question in particular. They were not prophets that put it together. You can't be kind of infallible. So is it infallibly true that the song of Solomon is false?

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Or is it kind of true? Not scripture, not divine, right? Is that infallibly true?

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You say so. It's just so interesting to me because I heard you guys didn't believe in infallible truth and then you come telling me that there's infallible truth.

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That's neither here nor there. We don't have anything Joseph Smith taught that we think is false. I got you. So that was my question.

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Isn't that fascinating? I got big money. Look, that was my question though.

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Are you saying that Joseph Smith I just wanted to know how do we test him?

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How are we to test him? Because Deuteronomy 13 or Deuteronomy 18 they give us a test of a prophet. Do you accept that?

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I'm not familiar specifically with those chapters. Do you want to read them? I can give you a synopsis.

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Well, how did the brethren when Peter came back This is what

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I'm asking. They already knew he was a prophet. I think there's more to it than that. I think more than presupposing.

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There's history behind that. As far as him being an apostle or a disciple? Yeah. I don't think it's that way.

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As you're saying. But if there's a restoration. If they already recognize. They see him walking with Christ. So there's a certain amount of.

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He's recognized as one that walked with Christ. They can recognize that. People have literally seen him with Christ.

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So we can understand how the brethren who have seen the risen Lord and know that Peter was one of his disciples.

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We can recognize how they would just believe. Peter is a great example of fallibility too.

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He denied the Savior three times, didn't he? Of course. In the situation with Paul, Paul rebukes him. You don't have any.

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But yet he was the leader of the church. So this is my question. He became the leader. And revelation was received.

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You still haven't answered though. How do we test Joseph Smith? Or must you presuppose the validity of his prophethood?

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No. Is there a way that he can be disproven to you? That's my question. What would have to happen for him to be disproven as a prophet?

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There are several things which the scriptures teach in the church regarding a testimony of Joseph Smith in the

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Book of Mormon. It's called read, ponder, and pray. Read the things he taught.

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Ponder upon them. And pray and ask God if they are true. And he'll let you know by the

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Holy Ghost. So is he ultimately the witness of the Spirit that would tell you if he's true or not? I think that is a good thing to have.

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I happen to also think that there is ways to recognize truth. Apart from God's witness?

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Because it tastes good. It sounds good. As far as divine truth? Yeah. There were people who joined the church because somehow they recognized that he was a prophet of God.

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Maybe there's different ways the Spirit works. Okay. To do that. In my life,

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I've had personal revelation. I've had revelation from others on things

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I was specifically looking for an answer for. The others have answered that for me.

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I've had visions. You've had visions. And I had a sacred experience with the

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Savior as well. Okay. So essentially, it seems as if your knowledge or the validity of Joseph Smith's prophethood rests upon personal revelation.

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Ultimately. Ultimately, yes. Ultimately, okay. So how would you test to know whether or not your personal revelation was valid?

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How would you know if that was true? That's a valid question. Like I said, there's people who other churches will tell you.

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And then they're doing a bunch of wild stuff. And you think they're wrong, right? They're wrong. Every church says that.

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How do we know that they're wrong and you're right? If they're witnessing the same thing, the same

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God gave me an experience, I trust it. Is there any way to know? Is there any way to know?

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Yes. In Jeremiah, which I'm reading right now for the second time because I just love that book.

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Awesome book. It is good. I gotta go back and read it again. There's a verse in there that I actually printed out and taped to my scriptures on my computer because it is critically important.

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It says, paraphrasing again, if you pray and seek for me with all your heart, you will find me.

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Okay. I think those who are searching for truth honestly, with all their heart,

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I think they will be guided towards that. But people, a lot of Christians I met and people in our church, they put limitations around that because it requires a change of attitude.

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It requires a change of habits. It requires lifestyle changes. And not everybody wants to do that. Which means their personal revelation could be wrong.

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Well, I can't say for them. But ultimately, I'm saying if we both pray and seek the

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Lord and we come to two different conclusions, how do we know who's right? Well, that's a valid question.

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I would claim the Spirit and you would claim the Spirit. So there's no way to know. I would also claim the scriptures. I would claim organization.

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What about the scriptures? The structure. Well, for example, we believe Christ came to America and taught people here.

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But in order to believe that, you already have to rest on the validity of the witness of the Spirit.

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So you're already relying upon it. I think there's logic in there too. As far as what? Why would not

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God, why would not Christ who set up a church to teach the people, why would he not go to other places and teach them also?

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Right, but that's presuming upon the text. That's presuming upon the story. That's what he said. As far as what? John, he said,

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I am going to go to other sheep, they will hear my voice. That's an interpretation of you saying that that's going to happen.

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That's pretty direct. That's an interpretation of you saying that he is physically, physically going to be in another land.

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I am going. Right. He didn't say you. It also says that his spirit, it also said that he was sending his spirit,

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John 14, John 16, he's sending his spirit into the earth, right? Yes. And that his spirit is going to convict the world of sin?

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The people there did not come over here. No. But did the gospel get over there? No. The gospel didn't. It didn't get here at all.

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The gospel didn't get here. What do you mean? Were you saying in that time it didn't get here? Yeah. They weren't going to call people?

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They didn't have telephones? Did God owe them the gospel? Why wouldn't he? They weren't children of Israel.

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Not why wouldn't he. You're still presuming upon the validity of the text though when you say that.

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We're not arguing from a place of... Well, we do teach he loves all people. Okay. I'm saying does God owe people a gospel proclamation?

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Does he owe each individual that? Yeah. You know what, when he says I'm going to all men,

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I think he's going to do that. I'm going to all men regarding what? What do you mean? Well, when he's going to teach that God loves all people.

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You know what? I found surprising something you said in that thing there that you didn't believe that.

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I was like what do you mean all people aren't children of God? This would be my question regarding that. Where did that come from?

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It comes from Scripture. John chapter 1. How is it that by believing in Christ we have the right to become sons of God if we're already sons of God?

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How does that work? How do we have the right by faith, right? We have the right by faith, but we're already sons of God.

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That doesn't make any sense. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I'm sure I can find Scriptures where he wants everybody to come to him.

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A lot of people think that, but then when I say show me. Show me. You're limiting.

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It says we're sons of wrath and children of disobedience. How do we get from that that we're all children of God?

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He's the creator of all of us. That's different than being children of God. That's not the same thing. God creating us all and us all being children.

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What I mean by children, I'm saying covenant children. Covenant children of God. We belong to Christ.

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Ephesians chapter 1. You have a different definition. A different definition. When you say children of God, you just mean that he created us all.

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Yeah. That makes him our father. Does that mean that he wants us all to be saved? I think it would be his will for his children to all be saved.

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I think there's people who choose not to though. Choose not to. Absolutely. You're saying that God tries...

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Does God try to get the gospel? Does God try to get the gospel to all people? I think so, yeah.

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And he fails? No. Everybody doesn't get the gospel. Not in his lifetime. I know you guys believe in the next lifetime that they'll get.

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You got an answer for it though. He makes a system that accommodates everything.

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I got you. That's a just God to me. Are you saying that he can't get to everybody during their lifetime and so he has to have a plan

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B to get them after? I think he works through people. Hey, that's my wife. Where were you coming from?

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I got a question for him. This is another question that I had with...

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This is another question that I had with a couple guys. That'd be horrible. A lot of people aren't eating that.

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I didn't say that. This is another question that I had and this is how they answered it. I asked them, do you believe that God is infallible?

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The scripture says God cannot lie. He can't lie. Why would he? Now this is the question.

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Do you believe that he has the agency to lie but he chooses not to or do you believe that lying is actually contrary to his nature and he's unable to?

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Two different things. Is he choosing not to lie or is it actually that he cannot lie?

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I don't think it's within his nature. I agree. Why would he do that? Does God have free will?

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Although we do have an example where he told somebody to lie.

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The spirit. I know what you're saying. He didn't. Abraham. When he went into Egypt He told him to lie.

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What do you mean? Abraham lied. God didn't tell him to lie. He was told to. Tell him it's your sister.

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He didn't say that. Abraham said it. God didn't tell him to do it. Abraham did that. I know the example.

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That might be clarified in the Abraham. I got you.

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I'm sure there's times when you get married, right? Your wife says does this dress look nice?

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Do I look fat? No, I'm not talking about me. I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about God. Can God lie?

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The reason why I'm asking you all these questions. I don't think he ever would. That's not within his nature. Could he though?

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Hypothetically speaking, could he? I don't know. Does God... I would never say that's an option.

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Must God obey eternal law? Yeah, I think he does that. Does eternal law exist outside of God?

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I know where you're going with this. I think he is where he is because he obeyed eternal laws.

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It's not like some biography. Do you know it? I'm not going to try and quote it.

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It sounds weird. A lot of times people interpret the verse and say... When I was on my mission...

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What did you go to? Albuquerque, New Mexico. I have a friend who's from there. Often times you hear it explained in my church is that people say

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Jesus Christ is... How do they phrase it? Jesus Christ is... The only one of a kind.

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He suffered for all of our sins. Our pains, afflictions, and everything else. That always bugged me.

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What does it mean for... It's great that he knows how his stomach... ...understanding of who

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Christ is. We understand him... He took on... He'll be born of a virgin

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Mary. He'll suffer all manner of pains and afflictions. Everyone usually thinks that he suffers that because of his crucifixion, because of that.

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But then we read in the New Testament that he was a man. I've always said that Christ to me is a

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God who colluded to come forward to take on the body of a man.

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He could go through and suffer everything in life as a man. I don't mean that he gave into temptation.

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He went through all manner of things. He dies and he has his atonement. I think often times people view the atonement as...

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In the church we have this belief that the atonement has two parts. There's dying on the cross...

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And then in the garden. I've always heard it's like the garden he suffers all the physical pain we feel. But what's really cool is if you actually look at what those verses mean in the

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New Testament it's like... It's him going to basically hell and being like give everything you've got to me because I'm going to take everything you have and then

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I'm taking dominion over all these people who have fallen to your grasp. And now I'm taking them back.

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And if they accept me, they can have my dominion to be theirs. They'll be able to be with me in the next life.

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I've always thought that's such a cool such a beautiful thing. To me, I think it's kind of like that whole deal of whether or not you agree with me.

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This is why I wish sometimes in these debates we could sit down and really just ask each other how you believe.

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I think cherry picking a verse to you, it's just all it does is this and this. You can do that all day.

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Yeah. If I were to sit down, there was a great seminar I went to. We had a

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Baptist, a Jewish guy a rabbi, sorry not Jewish guy a teacher from my religion and when they sat down they were kind of talking over this and they each kind of go back and forth and they get to this point where they're talking about the relationship.

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The rabbi explains how he views God. I cannot remember I think it was a

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Catholic priest but it might have been a Baptist. They talk about what they believe and they get to this point where the guy talks and he's like, you know, here's what

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I believe. And he goes over and what he says is oftentimes people view that we think that Christ is like we believe in God the

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Father. And Elohim's a really weird one. So how many gods do you guys believe in? One. Do you believe in one

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God? Is Jesus God? Yes. And is the Father God? Yes. Are you a

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Trinitarian? Sort of. But you're a Latter -day Saint. I am. This is good.

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It's really interesting because if you look, Christ himself praised the Father. We know that.

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He said give glory to the Father and we as Latter -day Saints give glory to the Father. When we pray, we don't pray to Jesus Christ we pray to God the

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Father. And the reason why is like while this is kind of where it gets an interesting view on it you might believe that like one and the same body and spirit sort of deal and we might believe that they're three separate personages you know,

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God the Father, Son, and what not. But the interesting thing there is like we only believe in the Father.

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But the reason why Christ, we can call him God or in other words we can call him God. God the

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Son. And this is where it comes down to pure doctrinal and like I wish we could sit down. Yeah, you're fine.

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But the reason we find that is because as we go through Christ like the reason

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I say colluded it's a story of how God colluded together to save mankind.

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Because in our belief we have a predestination. And the reason that works with all this is because it's like God is our

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Father. He created us. In all intents and purposes He is the Father of the entire household. His temple is the universe.

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We are His images in that temple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like Christ though Satan, when we fell we all became into the dominion of Satan.

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You see in the beginning God gives Adam entire dominion over the earth. But then as he falls

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Satan takes that dominion. And so we needed a savior. But then it's like oh well we have this double conundrum where it's like suddenly now you've got

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Adam's like Adam's taking himself over. But then God commands him. So how do we get this? Well we just need a savior. And so basically then you get to the end like Christ comes around.

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Boom, boom, boom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Goes through his entire life. That whole deal. But then it kind of goes back to what

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I say. It's like Christ wrestles literally he takes upon everything Satan could have ever given us.

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All that damnation requires of him. Everything that was going to be possible you don't know?

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It's just funny because I talk to other people and they tell me I'm going to spirit prison. And all Christians who don't believe what you guys believe are going to spirit prison.

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The other side in the spirit world there are people who will be taught the gospel there if they did not have an opportunity here.

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So I'm saying in my position in my position like stating right now and I didn't accept

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LDS theology would I go to spirit prison? Are you done? No. No, I'm saying if I stayed just how

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I am right now what I believe right now. But you're not done yet. I know. You're going to die. You're going to go to spirit world. Spirit prison?

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If I believe what I believe now. If I never change. And then even in the afterlife I reject LDS theology before I go to spirit prison.

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I wanted to hear it. I love you brother. I wanted to hear it because that's what I got taught. That's what someone told me.

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I want to make sure it's consistent. In our scripture in section 138 That's actually what he quoted.

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Everybody was there before the bridge was opened with the Savior and he opened that bridge and everybody's flowing through now.

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And they make a choice whether or not they go on that bridge. And you know what? There's people who have an honest opportunity here and there and before this life they rejected it.

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One third rejected it. I got you. One third. And they were standing before the guy. How did that happen?

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They chose unwisely. In our debate, this is what it all comes down to.

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In our debate it all comes down to this. We say objective truth is a reality that we can apprehend.

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We can know objective truth by way of God's divine revelation. And God has promised.

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He said the grath withers, the flower fades but my word shall stand forever. He promises that his word will stay intact.

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And that this revelation that he has given unto his church will not pass away. Christ says heaven and earth will pass away.

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My word shall in no wise pass away. Let me just finish here. Our apprehension of divine objective truth is how we know what is true.

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If that was true and how you're interpreting that you would have all the scriptures that the Bible says are scriptures that are not in it.

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Why is that? Why don't you? Paul wrote another letter, right? Oh, that's one.

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So let's just deal with that. Paul wrote another letter. Why wouldn't we have that? Does God not choose what he gives to his church?

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That's our claim. God chooses that. Yes, but people have the opportunity to manipulate, to burn, to reject.

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Look at the children of Israel. He says if you don't do these ordinances I will remove my gospel from this nation.

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Can people hinder? I got this.

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Jeff, I owe you a big apology. Why? And I ask you to forgive me.

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Well, why? Of course, why? For getting angry at you all these years. You have kicked my

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Mormon butt for the past 20 years and I've the

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Spirit has said Stephen, you're wrong for getting angry.

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Okay? So, but I want to thank you for coming.

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Thank you for blessing me. Because what has happened is that I've gotten stronger in the

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Bible the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, as a result of you kicking my butt.

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See, when I got through you know,

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I was in pain that first night December the 1st, 2002 Is that when we first met?

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We were over there? On the west gate of the temple. Okay. And you were telling me all these things about exegesis and eisegesis and Mormons Mormons and Christians use the same words but have different meanings and I'm having all this cognitive dissonance going on.

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And so what happened was I went home and I started looking things up.

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For instance, Mormons and Christians use the same words but have different meanings. So I looked it up those six words and I found a website called

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Christian Apologetic Research Ministry run by Matt Slick. So my question now is did

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Matt Slick get that from you or did you get that from him? That was just the conceptual thing of using the same language but meaning something different.

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I think that Well Where is the source of denial?

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That's a very good question. By the way I've never even forgive you of course

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I love you Seriously, you're one of my most cherished memories out here.

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I love you too because that's why I pass out Bible reading plans and I encourage people to read the whole

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Bible. Which I've always appreciated about you. So you asked the question where would the idea come from of using the name

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Jesus but meaning something else, right? So 2 Corinthians 11 Paul uses that concept when he says that he's worried about those

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Christians in Corinth that they'll be deceived by the subtlety of Satan who will give them another

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Jesus another gospel, another spirit and he says you might even put up with them and so he's worried about that and Stephan we would both agree this is not a point of dispute between us that's very early on in the history of the church

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I mean the church in Corinth Paul dies in the 60s under Nero's reign so obviously that's very early and he says to the church he's worried about them that they're going to actually believe in a false

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Christ, a false gospel and a false spirit, right? So that conceptually I would say there's a good starting point that you can use the name

31:24

Jesus and mean something that is a completely false Christ like you and I would agree the

31:29

Jehovah's Witnesses have a false Christ Muslims have a false Christ I don't know

31:35

I'm not again, I'm not the 4th member of the Trinity I'm going to let

31:44

God be God I will let God judge the Jehovah's Witnesses I will let

31:49

God judge the Muslims I'll let God judge you I will let

31:55

God judge me and in Revelation chapter 20 and Revelation chapter 22 it says we will all be judged according to our works but the idea

32:06

Well the ones thrown into the lake of fire are judged according to their works Believers names in Revelation are in the book of life they receive the grace of God those who go into the lake of fire are judged according to their works

32:17

Well you're talking about judgment with the idea of condemnation right, right again we're looking at it differently

32:26

I'm looking at judged as a way of separating in terms of what someone believes because in Revelation 22 it says that those who believe will have right to the right to life and those who do not will burn

32:48

Can I ask you a question about that? That's a genuine question because I've always seen you as how do

32:57

I say this so a lot of the younger Mormon families I'm talking to even missionaries

33:03

I feel like they represent a very different Mormon church and Mormon belief system than I'm used to with a friend like you

33:13

I've known you for 20 years and you represent to me and I think even to Summer as well the old guard of Mormonism you believe in really what's basically classical

33:27

Mormon theology a lot of the younger people I'm out here talking to they don't think like you do they haven't been asked the right questions they haven't had their butts kicked when they get their butts kicked by like McConkey they need some

33:45

McConkey in them he's a good one he'll kick their butts Elder Packer and some others they don't pull any punches so the question

33:55

I have for you is you mentioned Lake of Fire in my experience

34:02

I got a better idea why don't we read that we can but it was a question you represent like I said the old guard to me of Mormonism you understand

34:12

Mormon theology you understand it, you believe it so when you talk about there being a

34:18

Lake of Fire and an actual place where people are judged and condemned that's what I grew up with all the old

34:25

Mormon friends that I had would tell me that I was going to that place of darkness because I fight against the church and everything else but these younger ones don't seem to believe that there actually is a place of judgment the thing is the

34:42

Lake of Fire could be literal or it could be figurative I don't know but you do believe there is a place of judgment there's going to be a bad thing for people who do bad things so you and I are friends so maybe you don't want to I guess my question to you

35:06

I'm really interested in knowing how do you feel about this new generation of Latter Day Saints and sort of their commitments because when

35:16

I talk to people about Latter Day Saints in my mind when I think about the people who represent real

35:23

Mormonism who know it, believe it the old guard, I think about you I think about Craig Ray I think about I didn't see

35:32

Craig lately I did, I took him to dinner last week but how do you feel about the way things are right now

35:41

I think they're very much like newborn babies like your babies and my babies when they pop out of the womb, like Summer's baby is due in September they're not going to come out spouting

35:54

Isaiah but when I was they're going to have to learn line upon line, precept upon precept but these younger ones they seem to deny what you have so ably defended in the past in terms of Mormon theology well, actually

36:09

I haven't ably defended at least, ok, passionately committed to yeah, but I have let's see here let me see here what you looking for?

36:28

Revelation 22 let's go back a little bit more he that is unjust let him be unjust still and he which is filthy let him be filthy still and he that is righteous let him be righteous still quickly to give every man according as his work shall be

36:54

I am Alpha and Omega blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through through the gates of the city for without are dogs and sorcerers and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie and I believe that half -truths are lies

37:18

I believe I have to say I'm disappointed in this latest tract this one okay, why?

37:28

because it's still I know, we ran out I think let me see

37:36

I think we're out it says the gospel for Mormons right

37:42

I think that a more accurate title and I'm telling you this because I love you you've told me that you love me yes

37:52

I believe that this is more accurately called the quote mind gospel for gullible ignorant

38:00

Mormons okay, why? because as I showed

38:09

Summer and all the others that I could whoops you want me to help you with anything?

38:22

I'll hold this this one, okay now, I gave you this before but this is a new one okay, you added to it?

38:31

I added this paragraph A .W. Tozer read the whole

38:36

Bible nothing less than a whole Bible will make a whole Christian now, look on the inside okay in fact, we've been fighting so much

38:48

I've never been able to tell you how this Bible reading plan came about there's two of them

38:54

I got this from a good Baptist fellow before I retired from the

39:00

Air Force I think I remember you telling me that that's right, yes and he and I worked on it and came up with the calendar letter and so a

39:13

Baptist and a Latter -day Saint can work together on a Bible reading plan I like it on anything even if we disagree doctrinally we can at least agree that God lives and Jesus is the

39:28

Christ but you know what I'll say to that is which God and who is Jesus that's the important one, right?

39:36

that's basically what the Jews were attacking Jesus about his identity, you're right here read the four

39:45

Gospels twice four Gospels, Acts and Romans twice this is a long distance reading plan I love it

39:52

I'm glad I think I've always told you I am glad that you're encouraging people to do this especially

39:58

I think what you chose here in terms of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts Romans I mean that's fantastic and the reason is because whenever I've had my

40:09

Mormon butt kicked it's always been Paul Paul, Paul, Paul as if Paul was the

40:16

Savior as if Paul was the authority but you're having him read Paul and Romans yes and read the

40:23

New Testament and then on the back read the whole Bible twice and then the four

40:31

Gospels four Gospels, Acts and Romans twice and what will happen is in the end you'll have read the four

40:38

Gospels twelve times and what I'm trying to do is get people to focus on Christ so let's say you and I I've been talking for 20 years

40:50

I was a really young man when we first started talking and I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes in our conversations too but let's say that because you and I, we can both acknowledge

41:01

I'm 44 now when you and I first met I had one, maybe my second child

41:09

I have five now I'm 44 now and you and I are getting closer and closer to that day where we face him we are going to face

41:17

God and Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father and he's going to say

41:25

I'm listening he's going to say well done thou good and faithful servant enter into the rest of your

41:31

Lord or he's going to say depart from me ye that work iniquity I never knew you

41:37

I never knew you I know you don't want that for me and I don't want that for you

41:44

I have probably this is the truth I have probably spent more time here in 20 years talking with you than anybody accumulated

41:57

I mean what do you think probably accumulated a total of 24 to 48 hours talking to each other so let's be real with each other as friends we're getting closer to that day where we face him you keep using such strong accurate biblical language and I respect

42:15

I respect the fact that you're doing what you're doing and read the Bible but let's say that I read

42:21

John because that was actually the first gospel I ever read so I wasn't raised in a Christian home I think you were raised latter day saint no actually

42:29

I joined when I was 21 that's right you did tell me that 5 months before I joined the Air Force I'm sorry

42:34

I should have remembered that but the first so you 21 16 is when

42:40

I had my first profession of faith I had never read the Bible first thing I ever read was John and you're telling everyone to read

42:47

John now let's say I read John and that's all I read the first 6 months I was a Christian it was just John, John, John, John and it says in the beginning was the word so he was already there and he was with God and he was

42:58

God the same was in the beginning with God all things were made through him and without him was nothing made that's been made so there

43:05

I'm 4 verses into John and it says that Jesus has always existed forever and that he was always with the father and that he created everything and that includes

43:17

Satan again that's not the whole truth that's part of the truth but that's John though that's very true that's true

43:24

I'm not arguing against John I will not argue against John I know you respect the word enough to say

43:29

I wouldn't do that but this church does teach you that that's not true well let me ask you something have you ever sat in the audience and watched the

43:38

Easter pageant from start to finish once it's changed a lot and I haven't seen the new one yet but I'm going to see it tomorrow night so it's much more music it's like a musical now very different than say when's the first time you came to the pageant you and I met around 2000 2001

44:00

I think my first Easter pageant was around 95 no my first Easter pageant was 92 so you can correct me if I'm wrong on this but I know that somewhere around the late 80s maybe early 90s is when they switched from where the garden scene was really explicit about the atonement beginning in the garden there was more commentary than there is now

44:33

I don't remember all that ok so sorry besides the point but when

44:39

I get four verses into John I have a different Christ there in the pages of scripture that you're telling me to read then the church will instruct me on like the

44:53

Christ of the Latter Day Saints you can tell me if I'm wrong I don't want to misrepresent you I don't see it that way ok so Jesus in Latter Day Saint theology is the offspring of Elohim and one of his wives and so is

45:05

Lucifer and so are we can you show that to me in the book of Mormon in the book of Mormon? yeah

45:11

I don't think Joseph would have been explaining that in 1830 but he certainly does teach it his doctrine progressively changes to polytheism through the 30s and into the 40s well

45:24

Jesus' doctrine progressed in the three years of his ministry why do you think that?

45:30

well he taught things at the end of his ministry that he didn't teach at the beginning of his ministry what

45:37

I mean by that is I'm sorry I didn't explain that well what I mean by that is when

45:42

Joseph first has the book of Mormon published in 1830 you can see ideas of monotheism in there

45:49

I mean he even calls Christ the eternal God but then he says later that there is no eternal

45:56

God like we've got to learn to become gods ourselves the same way all gods have done before us they became gods and see that's something that we all have to wrap our minds around or if you reject that idea

46:14

I understand why you reject that idea me I don't have any problem with that I went to the temple today and I I got

46:24

I was thinking throughout the session about how what this is what they're saying here and this is what

46:34

Jeff says we're saying and they're two different things can you give me an example? no so let's just so that we don't get into a million different places like I said we have like two full days of time talking to each other that's the key issue for me is

46:53

Christ you know what I love about you is this I know that if you and I were standing at a city council say and they were trying to push some sort of gender bending denial of maleness and femaleness you and I would put our hands in each other's hands and we would say there is only one there's a male and there's a female we'd be fighting we'd have that same common ground there my

47:20

ADD just kicked in I want to tell you something I want to commend you spoke to the government in Colorado oh the

47:35

Colorado legislature yeah what you said was absolutely 100 % biblical biblically true and I'm with you all the way there there's only literally can't even see it

47:53

I have a question what was the end result of that what did they vote how did they vote do you remember at the very end of the testifying before Colorado I'll have to look at it again take a look at it later we were there from 1130 in the morning that what you saw that was at midnight and that's when they first opened the bill for the hearing it was midnight you mean at the end there was like 4 bills they had to hear they didn't even get out of there until like 3 .34am

48:24

oh so you were I was the first to testify on my bill they were propping their eyes up with toothpicks yes so you'll hear me at the very end

48:33

I'm trying to encourage them and instruct them on the fact that the supreme court doesn't create legislation that goes against our constitution and what

48:42

I said was is essentially I know that there are Colorado legislators here who know that Roe vs.

48:50

Wade isn't a law because you're trying to codify it as law because it's not what

48:55

I meant by that because you wouldn't know this because you weren't there I heard from the people who were there that the legislators in Colorado know

49:03

Roe vs. Wade isn't a law so they wanted to make Roe a state law that opinion and so after I left they killed our bill it's a liberal dominated legislature and then they proposed legislation where now

49:19

Colorado officially codified abortion as law in Colorado because Roe was never law ever but we have good things happening right now in Louisiana, very good things ok so back to where we were but the thing is

49:39

I am wondering if you had approached it from a different direction if the results would have been different you were speaking to them in the bible gospel

49:54

I speak bible you speak bible, I speak gospel you speak gospel they don't you remember on the day of Pentecost every man heard the gospel in his own language their native tongue and I counted 15 different nationalities there but you did not speak to the

50:19

Colorado legislature in their tongue I didn't adopt their world view but I was speaking

50:25

English which is what tongues was but what I'm saying is

50:31

I get what you're meaning I should have adopted their presuppositions and used their language and what they're committed to right which

50:41

I did do in terms of they were arguing about the constitutionality of Roe which this is amazing so the hearing that was before our hearing those same legislators who then admitted

50:54

Roe wasn't law in the hearing before mine they were arguing against another bill saying that Roe vs

51:01

Wade was law and then when I came in and refuted it they let go of that because they know it's not true and then they went somewhere else but this gets to a good point though because you're asking a good question let me give you a suggestion because remember you're a

51:17

Christian, I'm a Christian whether you believe I'm a Christian or not is immaterial if it is wrong excuse me if it is right to terminate the life of an innocent baby or the life of a fetus that if unimpeded would become a human being if they don't believe he's a human being already if it is wrong to terminate the life of an innocent person why is it not right why is it wrong to terminate the lives of murderers rapists kidnappers human traffickers and drug dealers you bring up a really good point and so if you talk to the legislature in these terms say if it is wrong to kill them the bad guys why is it right to kill the good guys you bring up a great point and I do like to use that when

52:22

I have time think about it I say it all the time at the abortion mills when

52:28

I'm there I get to talk to them this subject comes up what I'll say is

52:36

I'll say to the leftist you believe that if a child is conceived and raped that we should kill the child but I don't believe that the child deserves capital punishment

52:48

I believe the rapist does exactly and I'll say to them do you think that the rapist deserves to die and they're all leftists so they'll say no but you do believe that the child deserves to die which points out their hypocrisy gross hypocrisy let's approach it from another point let's say they want to brush that off I would ask the taxpayer do you want to pay for murderers room and board for life do you want to be sentenced to life supporting him for example and let's go ahead and use an extreme something that everybody can understand before you were ever born

53:40

Sirhan Sirhan killed Bobby Kennedy you know what 50 years plus later he's still alive you know who's paying his

53:53

I'll tell you what let me ask you who is not paying his room and board taxpayers are paying his room and board taxpayers are paying his room and board who is not paying his room and board he isn't so he created a victim this goes to God's law you're actually speaking about God's law he created a victim and because we reject

54:18

God's standards of justice we say no you shouldn't kill murderers so we'll give them room and board and sex changes and health care and food for the rest of their lives what you've done now is you've created now a community of victims he victimized one person you won't hold to God's standards now the community is victimized forget

54:36

God's standards you can't talk about God's standards to secular people well according to scripture you can

54:41

I mean you can but it didn't do any good well that gets to a good point because I know what you're aiming at you're right in terms of this is the word of God they're committed humanists and naturalists they reject scripture but remember and you are handing out bible reading plans so you know this it's the gospel that's the power of God for salvation what they need because they're dead in their sins they need life so my job as a

55:12

Christian as a minister of the gospel is to give them Christ so they can come out of the death that they're in but you need to take them from where they are to the next step to the next step it would be great if you could take them from secular humanism to Christ if I had 45 minutes

55:34

I would have loved to have done that I had three but instead if you could say think of the economics think of the taxpayer should the taxpayer be penalized should the taxpayer be punished for something the taxpayer did not do you and I have all this common ground because I 100 % agree with you

55:55

God's law defines justice how you should do this we say no to God's law today so now we have all this crazy

56:01

Marxist ideology we have this crazy socialist ideology all this injustice all around us we would agree on so much which gets to the main point we're talking about because you see for example

56:16

I know you hate Marxism and socialism and communism and you do love when

56:22

God says this is the standard for executing criminals if he's a murderer you give him the death penalty because you believe

56:28

God's word says that so in some areas you will just say that's what God says male, female he created in the beginning male and female but when we get to John or Colossians or anywhere else that says that Jesus has always existed as God and he created

56:44

Lucifer that's where you get muddy and you say well there are other parts of the

56:50

New Testament where Jesus where God says what is it

56:58

Hebrews chapter 2 I think he said to which of the angels have

57:05

I said this day have I begotten thee that's King James oh,

57:11

I'm sorry my ADD just kicked in again I came here last night wanting to see

57:19

James White he's out of town he's out of town, he's up in Utah uh I have a problem,

57:27

I need his help since I can't get his help right now I'll ask you I have an

57:33

ESV study Bible and it has twice as much study notes as it has text on many of the pages some pages and a lot of times you know

57:51

I bought it with the hope that I could learn something which yeah,

57:56

I'm learning things but I'm having to wade through a quagmire of verbosity and commentary by Bible scholars much of which is good but so much of it is superfluous it's not needed by the way,

58:18

I'm not a big fan of study Bibles I don't like someone else's commentary in my text and I understand

58:24

James White says he's not a big fan of study Bibles I don't mind a book on it's own, off to the side that kind of goes through text by text but I don't like the notes in my

58:37

Bible yeah, ok what Bible would you recommend? as an

58:43

English translation? ESV is great you know it's funny if you're reading in English it's such a smooth faithful translation but also like we speak today the

58:59

Christian Standard Bible it used to be called the Holman Christian Standard Bible that's one that I choked on did you really?

59:08

I choked on it I thought there were some good places in it see what happened was

59:13

I read the King James because that's where I started James White started out with the King James you probably started out with the

59:19

King James yep, that's the only Bible in my house that's the only Bible we knew it was the only game in town well,

59:26

I was in the Air Force I worked with good guys from different churches and so I read the

59:32

New American Standard when I was in Korea that's a good translation and then when

59:39

I got home I read the New International Version that was in the 80s that was in the 80s and then the light came on I said,

59:49

Stephan, you're LDS read the Joseph Smith Translation so I said, ok, so I read it

59:54

I know there are differences and I'm not worried about them I'm just saying it is what it is you should be worried about them there's some significant doctrinal changes from Scripture there yeah, well there's also some very good doctrinal changes for instance in Luke I believe it is

01:00:14

Jesus says no, no, no, it's Matthew Matthew 7

01:00:20

Sermon on the Mount Whosoever is angry with his brother King James Version says without a cause

01:00:27

New International Version leaves out without a cause it has a footnote that says some manuscripts without a cause

01:00:33

Joseph Smith leaves out without a cause so he got something right now but what about since we're on it, here's my

01:00:43

ADD kicking in in Romans 4 which you're rightly telling people to read in Romans 4 when

01:00:53

Paul explains the gospel he says that what God does is he actually credits to somebody righteousness apart from their works so separate from their works he credits them righteousness by faith alone and then he says he does not count their sins against him but what's interesting is he says something there that is so peculiar it only makes sense with a

01:01:15

God who is so full of grace and mercy it says to the one who works if you're working for reconciliation, peace with God, salvation he says to the one who works his wage, what he gets for working is not counted as a gift because when you work for something you're getting paid for it it's not a gift he says, here it is but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the wicked his faith is counted as righteousness when

01:01:47

Joseph Smith read that he changed it because from a human perspective it doesn't make sense that God would acquit or declare righteous a wicked person so he said he literally flips it on it's head

01:01:59

Joseph Smith flips it on it's head he said God does not justify the wicked he literally changed

01:02:07

Paul's gospel there which if you read the whole bible you'll see that the wicked are in dire straits the righteous are in good hands according to Paul we're declared righteous through faith apart from works and we're declared righteous as somebody who is wicked again that's

01:02:26

Paul saying it but that's his explanation of the gospel and I'm not arguing against Paul Paul was an apostle to the

01:02:33

Lord Jesus Christ I will not argue against Paul I respect that you feel that way about Paul but Joseph Smith changed his he changed his gospel and I'll tell you what my

01:02:45

God is big enough to handle Joseph Smith he doesn't need my help but Joseph gave you the revelation and says that he was a prophet from God he said that he spoke by the

01:02:57

Holy Spirit but he literally contradicted words that were given by the Holy Spirit 2000 years before him well atheists say that the bible contradicts itself and when they give you a passage you show them that they haven't even read it most of the time they never touched it and you look at it in context right?

01:03:14

yes we do but the fact of the matter is the

01:03:20

Pew Research Center which is not always right did a bible quiz and they found out that atheists and Latter Day Saints know their bible better than evangelical

01:03:32

Christians and then there's further down who know it even less but they were asking certain questions and it could have been slanted

01:03:47

I don't know I don't like surveys either they never ask the right questions they never seem to in fact when

01:03:55

I ask people here your people anybody have you read the whole bible

01:04:02

I ask Latter Day Saints have you read the four standard words most of the time they'll tell me no once in a while they'll say yes

01:04:15

Latter Day Saints I've asked have you read the four standard words I've gotten yes a few times no most of the times can you guess what the third answer is

01:04:26

I don't know what's that they don't even know these modern ones some of them do some of them don't and I say you know the bible the book of Mormon and of course the answer is oh no then

01:04:44

I give them an LDS scripture reading plan but when you give your reading plans

01:04:53

I turn them over to God and I read it and I say look here's two discourses one about Jesus it's a different Christ than Joseph and Brigham Young taught and this gospel

01:05:07

Joseph Smith changed it he changed the historic apostolic record itself and that's what the

01:05:16

Pharisee said about Jesus he said you've changed everything around we can't accept what you're telling us no it's actually the other way he actually confronted them because he was pointing back to the law of God saying that their man made tradition perverted it they were confronting each other well

01:05:33

Jesus was taking them back to the law well Matthew 15 he showed that their man made tradition they thought was divine from Moses contradicted the law of God he says thus you invalidate the word of God for the sake of your tradition so just on that point the

01:05:48

Jesus of scripture takes the law of God and he tests these other traditions and he says your tradition contradicts

01:05:56

God's word you're invalidating God's word and that's what I'm doing with Joseph that's what

01:06:01

I'm doing with Brigham well I understand what you're saying again you and I I just don't see it the way you see it but you and I have been friends for I think you and I have been friends for like half my life frenemies

01:06:16

I've known you I think for over half my life now I need to be willing to be corrected by scripture and I have and just in the 20 some odd years that I've known you

01:06:31

I've had to be corrected because I see in the text I was wrong about that and it was really hard to let go of but I was wrong

01:06:38

I was challenged are you willing because you're handing out bible reading plans are you willing to let the text of God's word tell you plainly that Joseph is wrong are you willing to let that happen

01:06:52

I'm willing to let the bible text tell me if he is right or if he's wrong ok because you and I are getting closer

01:06:59

Stephan we're getting closer and closer to that day where we're going to face him yeah I know I'm 75 and I'm I'm about to step on a banana peel you know this is the way facts of life

01:07:13

I know I know but ok so this is even more you know what I'm going to be really transparent with you ok

01:07:18

I heard you were here last night I was like oh shoot I hope he comes again tomorrow because I want to see him

01:07:24

I want to give him a hug and I want to I'm telling you this you can this truth before God I was thinking about you last night

01:07:33

I was thinking about you this morning when I woke up I was thinking about you today and what

01:07:38

I was thinking was well what I was thinking about was this

01:07:45

I was thinking about the fact that you've been given so much light so much light and you're so our days are numbered we were standing out there together and back there together 20 years ago for hours going back and forth and I've been asking you the same questions for 20 years and Stefan we're getting closer and this is

01:08:08

I know that you are in your heart and you know it's not a game I know that you're committed I know you're zealous but what if you and I aren't promised tomorrow and we're just getting old men ready to face him what are you going to do with the fact that you've been given scripture over scripture over scripture and it contradicts

01:08:27

Joseph flat out it's a different God it's a different way to God I'll tell you what

01:08:33

Jeff when we're still here I want to say this in front of the camera where is it?

01:08:42

Is it still going? Is the camera still going? Come over here camera man

01:08:49

Stefan wants to make sure this is on camera I want to make sure that this is on camera a few years ago

01:08:58

I don't know if he was one of your guys or from some other church but he asked me what

01:09:05

I consider to be a life altering question ok he asked me

01:09:11

Stefan what if you're wrong? and I gave him what

01:09:17

I thought was a good answer I told him well you know

01:09:23

I believe the bible I believe the biblical witness of Jesus Christ I believe the book of Mormon witness of Jesus Christ confirms the biblical witness of Jesus Christ if I'm wrong at least

01:09:36

I did not bear false witness and tell half truths about other churches I have never been in fact

01:09:43

I asked the people down there do you know how many times I've been to Apologia Church to bear false witness and tell half truths about Apologia Church and one of the guys answered zero,

01:09:57

I said that's right zero times I have never, I don't have any anti -baptist literature

01:10:04

I just pass out bible reading plans but I thought of another keep that thought but do you believe that all my creeds are an abomination and that I'm corrupt yeah

01:10:18

I believe you've been corrupted right now

01:10:24

I came to a different answer which I think is also a good answer that is a valid question if it can be asked in both directions what if the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is wrong or false or whatever what if the anti -cult movement is wrong or false

01:10:47

I'm not asking what if Christianity is false I'm not disputing that Christianity is true except that your apostle said it is a perfect pact of nonsense no

01:11:00

I can show you he was talking about your concept of three in one, one in three, fat and skinny

01:11:11

I'm talking about a different one of your apostles said that all Christianity is a perfect pact of nonsense okay he's an apostle because he had talked to a number of Christian pastors who were all confused just like you have talked to a number of young Latter Day Saints who don't know the gospel but do you pass out

01:11:37

LDS scripture reading plans and encourage them to read the four standard works I do what scripture calls us to do and that's test all things hold fast that which is true, thy word is truth test things by scripture that means that I need to be tested by scripture if I believe something false it needs to be corrected by scripture but you're quote mining you're proof texting, cherry picking let's try that in my reading plan

01:12:02

I've got the whole book of Isaiah I've got the whole bible but you don't agree with Isaiah when he says that before me there was no god formed neither shall there be after me no

01:12:10

I totally agree with him in the context in which he was speaking okay the context was false gods he says

01:12:17

I'm the only one, there's none before me, none after but you don't believe that I believe that there are false gods and there are true gods but God says there are no gods before him, none after him you're not going to make it read the rest of the bible how about I read just two chapters of Isaiah and he says repeatedly that he's the first, the last, the beginning and the end there is no god besides him, none before him, none after him he doesn't even know of any other gods

01:12:43

Joseph said there's a council of gods and you've got to learn to become gods like them that's a different god,

01:12:50

Stephen hello Craig, how are you? you haven't learned yet come here, you've got to give me a hug let's stick to that though because you're telling everyone, read

01:13:04

Isaiah so I say okay, I read two chapters I'm telling you to read it in context don't read just two chapters, read the whole book no, totally,

01:13:12

Isaiah is my favorite book of the old testament so let's say that there's a challenge

01:13:17

I kind of like the book of Job my wife's favorite is Job which is, you're a weird you're of a weird kind so I tell my wife that, you're a weird kind of person to make that your favorite one can we break up for a moment

01:13:30

I've got to tell you a funny story okay I have read the bible many times

01:13:39

I don't believe in I was having a difficult time when

01:13:48

I was in the air force and I felt like I was the Job of the air force he was in the air force were you?

01:13:56

how many years were you in the air force? 22 years so I had this crushing burden on me and things were just going bad all around nothing was right, everything was wrong everything was except the gospel

01:14:17

I know God lives and I trust God like Job trusts

01:14:23

God well I happened to be reading the new international version of the bible and I was reading the book of Job and I said what do

01:14:34

I have in common with Job and I got to reading

01:14:42

Job and I said you're nowhere near as righteous as Job you're nowhere near as rich as Job you haven't lost everything in one day what do you have in common with Job?

01:14:57

and I had to read the whole book of Job and somewhere I can't remember where it is right now but again

01:15:05

I was reading the new international version I found out we both had hemorrhoids and my pity party just came crashing down like a house of cards and cause see in the

01:15:23

King James version it says hemorrhoids in the new international version it says hemorrhoids so you know we learn things as we go what

01:15:35

I'm saying is if you will read the whole bible read it but forget everything that the anti -cult movement has ever taught you listen do you remember my story

01:15:51

I told you the way I got into conversing with latter day saints was cause a very close friend of mine was a latter day saint and I knew nothing about the bible so right around the time that I had first heard the gospel

01:16:04

I made a profession of faith all I'm doing Stephan is I'm reading John I had never been to church I didn't know anybody professing

01:16:10

Christ I'm just reading John, John, John, John, John, John and so you should have been reading

01:16:16

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John I should have but all I had was the new testament book of John sent to me and so I had already already read in John that Jesus is the creator of all things that he's always existed as God and that salvation was a gift that if you trust in Christ you have eternal life

01:16:38

I already read all that and so when I came into contact with my close friend who was a latter day saint

01:16:44

I mean devoutly latter day saint his folks were amazing his family took me in they were just so gracious to me

01:16:50

I only had a small moment of time where I was in the scriptures and just in one book really was

01:16:56

John and I already recognized so much that was different in terms of the

01:17:02

Christ that Joseph Smith gave to the latter day saints and the Christ that I was seeing in the text of scripture that's the key issue

01:17:10

Stephan I don't want you to die without the true Christ and knowing him I don't want you to die without reading the whole bible

01:17:17

I've read it over and over and over and you told me to read Isaiah and then I say to you hey Isaiah says before me there was no

01:17:24

God formed neither shall there be after me Joseph denied both those things I have a question for you what are the names of the gods that the church of Jesus Christ the latter day saints worships well there's three gods of this earth but what are the names

01:17:39

Elohim, Jesus is Jehovah and you have the Holy Spirit that's three gods of this earth there are three distinct gods three distinct beings and then there are an infinite number of gods outside of that and in the book of Mormon it says those three are one

01:17:55

God because when Joseph first published the book of Mormon in 1830 he was surrounded by monotheistic

01:18:04

Christianity and so it's true you're right there's no doubt about this in 1830 when he published it he was very confused about the trinity he clearly didn't understand it because he confuses it in the book of Mormon but he also taught monotheism in the book of Mormon I'm still confused about the trinity because I cannot find the

01:18:22

T -R -I -N -I -T -Y in the B -I -B -L -E you can't find the B -I -B -L -E in the Bible either but the word is a word that expresses a concept good point so um but to the to the point about the main issue we're always circling back to this you and I agree with so much common ground a lot of stuff but God and the gospel

01:18:49

Mormonism teaches you a different God and you've got a different gospel Jesus is eternal the anti -cult movement has taught you a different God you keep saying that and you know all

01:18:59

I've done is given you scripture so far you keep talking about anti -cult movements I'm quoting scripture to you and well

01:19:07

Isaiah let's look at let's also look at Hebrews chapter 1 verses 1 and 2 let's look at Hebrews chapter 11 verse 6 let's look at Romans chapter 6

01:19:26

Hebrews 1 is actually a really good one it's where it says that Christ is the express image he shares the same substance as the father he's the one being with the father oh so he's is

01:19:39

Jesus his own father? no and we talk about this Jesus is not the father the father is not the son there's three distinct persons who share the one being of God and Hebrews 1 you just brought up says that that Jesus Christ shares the same substance with the father the express image of his person but notice also that the father tells the world and we are created in God's image also no the word there refers to his nature or substance

01:20:06

Jesus is the same nature as the father but it says the father tells think about this the father tells all the angels to worship

01:20:16

Jesus and the father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1 the father calls

01:20:22

Jesus God Jesus calls the father God because they are the one God three persons one God you believe in three beings of this earth and then infinite number of gods outside of that I don't know how many well one of your apostles said there's more gods than there is matter and I'll tell you what can you say that about Paul?

01:20:46

can you say that about Paul? I would disagree with Paul on that I respect what you just said

01:20:55

I want to know the context that's ok but can you just hang on that I think that's noble but I think it shows something very important is that you,

01:21:05

I know you you would never say I disagree with the apostle

01:21:10

Paul but you just said about one of your own apostles I disagree with him

01:21:16

I don't fully understand the context of what he's saying let me put it this way an apostle is an apostle

01:21:24

I may not understand what our modern day apostle said on a certain occasion

01:21:32

I respect that but it's not canon or scripture just because they say something like the

01:21:40

Adam God doctrine well Brigham Young he's a prophet he said if you don't believe that you're damned well that's you know what

01:21:48

I'll tell you something you can take it to the bank he was right or he was wrong he said all of his sermons were scripture my salvation

01:21:57

Brigham Young is not my savior but he said all of his sermons were scripture well

01:22:04

Stephan come on Stephan you've got to think hard about this stuff because it's essential we're talking about who

01:22:13

God is and what the gospel is you and I are just the clock is ticking as we get closer and closer today the way we face our creator and you and I have been talking for over 20 years and you've been given so much light

01:22:27

Stephan you've got to come to the true Christ I'm not trying to rob you of anything good I think you are

01:22:33

I'm not, I want to give you the true Christ see Jeff I'm going to have to agree with you on something ok the straw man

01:22:41

Mormon church is false ok explain that what do you mean I mean the church of Jesus Christ and the

01:22:48

Latter Day Saints is true it is the gospel restored to the earth today by God by Jesus Christ which scripture said would never need to happen but go ahead,

01:23:02

I can give you verse after verse it's the earnestly content for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints, once for all delivered to the saints it says there's going to be a falling away and there's going to be a restoration of all things that particular text you talk about reading things in context, if you read that in context clearly he's talking about a rebellion and a revolt, but he's talking about things that are happening in his day it's getting loud over here hey would you mind if we take a break for a minute

01:23:29

I've got to use the restroom, is that ok ok I'll tell you what let's go ahead and end it here ok, you've got to give me a hug though ok

01:23:40

I love you Stephan I love you too, but I would say read it again without bias without prejudice, without an agenda without a

01:23:51

Mormon or a Catholic with all my heart, with all my heart I want you to know this about me, ok this is truth before God we've got to let the text speak not what somebody has taught us not what our community believes what does the text say, that's what

01:24:06

I believe which I've got to ask you I'm sorry to hold you up all night it's ok you recommend the

01:24:13

Holman Christian Standard I like that, yeah just as readable

01:24:18

I felt like that it was good in some places but it's kind of like the

01:24:25

New Living Translation which was recommended to me by one of the pastors don't ever read that well,

01:24:32

I tried Matthew and Mark and I thought there were some really good places in there and there were other places where I wondered, what were these guys smoking

01:24:41

I know that's a good thought but I gave it an honest effort

01:24:47

I didn't take it's almost like this we have to think about the New Living Translation like hey

01:24:55

Stephen what did that verse say and you basically go you know,

01:25:01

I don't know word for word but it expresses this idea that's the New Living Translation it's dynamic let me give you the idea of what the text says instead of translating word for word you can't do it everywhere because some words can't be translated into English exactly so sometimes you have to do it dynamically but not everywhere the

01:25:22

New Living is like hey Stephen, what's that chapter say and you're like, well it's something like that's

01:25:28

New Living well I got through Matthew and Mark and then you kicked my butt with Isaiah so I read

01:25:38

Isaiah that's all I've read in the New Living Translation and then I was on the internet one day one night, late morning, whatever and somebody said the

01:25:52

New Living Translation is the Bible straight from hell I didn't say it

01:25:57

I found that on the internet and I said, you know what I wouldn't go that far not recommended put it that way, one star two enthusiastic thumbs down and James White said that there are some really bad translations yeah, there are bad

01:26:15

English translations yeah, for sure but the New American Standard I love that one New American Standard is great because it's more faithful, like literal word for word you and I, just like you said just read the

01:26:27

Bible, I want to know what it says NASB is as much as you can get in English that does that the ESV is like that the

01:26:34

HCSB, the Holman Christian Standard it follows that methodology but you know how in English today if you and I read some of the old

01:26:43

English stuff you're struggling through it because the way they order their words sometimes is not how we do it today the

01:26:50

Book of Mormon I'll tell you what the grammar is atrocious I'll give you that I'll let you go alright, bless you

01:27:03

I'll talk to you soon I just wanted to shake your hand Hi, my name is Rick I've watched a lot of your stuff online with Dr.

01:27:09

White I'm LDS your stuff is very thought provoking I enjoy it, and I just want to thank you for the encouragement especially the unborn

01:27:17

I love watching your stuff I even saw you on, there's a guy on YouTube that does Audit the Audit I enjoyed that one as well

01:27:25

I don't think that's the standard that we would have used if my wife's right here let me get right here

01:27:33

I'm going to sleep with this woman over here and I prayed to the Heavenly Father and I had a personal revelation and he said, it's okay

01:27:40

I don't think you would go, oh, okay I think you'd say, we have the scriptures we know what the scriptures say

01:27:46

Heavenly Father is being very clear about this is what is right and so we don't have to pray about something that has been so clearly revealed to us and so, likewise, when he says that this is the greatest commandment he gives us the

01:27:59

Shema he says, Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Had there's only one God there's only one Lord, right?

01:28:05

this is the important thing and in the New Testament when Jesus was questioning the lawyer

01:28:10

I can't remember, what is the greatest commandment? the greatest commandment is the Shema you shall love the

01:28:15

Lord your God with all of your heart all of your soul, all of your mind, all of your strength if God saw that it was this important that Jesus himself said it was this important it's important and it's been revealed clearly but then we look at something like Moroni 10

01:28:29

Moroni 10 says that first you must obey the greatest commandment love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and then, is his grace sufficient for you?

01:28:38

and we'd say, we don't want that for you because all of us, if we're honest we'd say, I can't love God perfectly I try, but I can't do it and I fail, and so if Jesus says this is the greatest commandment and we must first love

01:28:50

God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength and then his grace is sufficient we're lost in our sins because if his grace only comes after we do what it says in Moroni 10 we don't have a savior we have to work to it and I know you would say, we don't work to it,

01:29:04

Jesus saves us all but then you'd have to contend with your scriptures on what Moroni 10 says it does say what it says and like I said, it's a beautiful thing about modern revelation is our prophets have told us beyond that they've said, listen if you misunderstood what it said in the scriptures,

01:29:21

Christ's grace is sufficient sufficient for exaltation sufficient to return to the heaven that Christianity believes in and teaches

01:29:31

I don't know, it's a genuine question it's a real question, I'm not playing gotcha when you say sufficient my understanding, and I don't want to misrepresent you, is that your church teaches that you're saved by grace

01:29:42

Christ, and that gives the atonement for people and we all are raised bodily and then at that point, this is where I'm not sure, but correct me if I'm wrong then at that point, have we done our ordinances, have we obeyed our commandments, and if so, if we've obeyed the eternal laws and principles and the eternal gospel then we can be exalted to the highest possible step, so we're saying we don't believe the same thing because what we would say the

01:30:09

Bible teaches is that salvation is so much more than just a bodily resurrection, salvation is true unity with Christ salvation is forgiveness of your sins and Jeremiah 31 says very clearly that here is what the new covenant is

01:30:22

I will remember your sins no more if every single sin we've ever committed is remembered no more that is the essence of the new covenant then there's no amount of works we can add to that what could you possibly add to the perfection of Christ, to be exalted he says your sins are gone, it's finished if your only goal is just to get to heaven, then no, nothing what else do you need to add to it but if maybe you had faith that I could be more than just a cherub floating around in the forevers which we don't believe either

01:30:55

I know, I gathered that which is fine, I think that's fine I think you guys will be happy wherever you end up, and I hope

01:31:03

I'll be happy wherever I end up I'm sure of it where will you end up? hopefully heaven, right?

01:31:09

do you know that you'll be exalted? I know that I'll achieve heaven because the grace of Christ is sufficient for all of us do you know where you'll be

01:31:19

I'm not trying to be rude or foolish but do you know that you'll be as close to heavenly father as possible do you know that?

01:31:27

I'm hoping for it based on what? based on the revelation that's been given beyond the scriptures that says if you live your life according to the commandments you follow

01:31:39

Christ follow his teachings as we teach in our religion make and keep covenants then you can achieve the highest degree of exaltation

01:31:49

I believe it's first Nephi 3 says that heavenly father, God has not given unto the children of man any commandment that they're not able to fulfill that's a paraphrase, but I think it's pretty accurate

01:31:59

Lehi and the grass blades, etc so if heavenly father has not given unto the children of man any commandment that they can't bring about and he has said the greatest commandment is love the lord your

01:32:10

God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength as an honest man, you seem like a man of complete integrity can you honestly say that you're a loving

01:32:18

God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength listen, I'm not perfect nobody's perfect I wake up every morning,

01:32:29

I say my prayers I say, let me be a little bit better today than I was yesterday help me work on these little details but I also acknowledge that I am a human being

01:32:39

I'm going to get angry I'm going to get caught up and at the end of the day

01:32:44

I say my prayers, I ask for forgiveness hopefully I don't get caught in the same stumbles that I did yesterday tomorrow, that I did today and I respect that,

01:32:54

I think that's something we all do and we want to be more like God but the question that I'm trying to push at and I'm sure you hear it is that, okay, we want to be better great but according to the

01:33:07

Bible I can make sense of that and go Jesus' grace covers that perfectly but if I'm going to read the

01:33:12

Book of Mormon and believe the Book of Mormon, I don't know how if I must first obey the greatest commandment and then

01:33:19

His grace is sufficient 2 Nephi, which I'm sure you guys have talked about and then His grace is sufficient after what we do, after obeying the greatest commandment if only then is

01:33:28

His grace sufficient I could say from the Bible we're not perfect, we want to be better we want to be like God, we are so thankful that Christ has died and we can't add anything to His perfection

01:33:38

I could say amen to that and I could say that's what we want for you is to have that peace, but I don't

01:33:44

I genuinely don't understand how you have peace if there is the grace of Christ, my man but as you've admitted yourself the grace of Christ has swooped me up in it but as you've admitted yourself you're not perfect because Moroni 10 says you have to be for His grace to be sufficient for you you have to be perfect I'm not a scriptorian

01:34:04

I don't even know that word, so you're smarter than me if I wanted to I'm sure we could go online and find whatever the atheists say to dunk on any

01:34:12

Christian and we could pull it up if I'm misrepresenting you please tell me, because I don't ever want to do that what

01:34:19

I'm saying is the Book of Mormon, to me teaches me about my Heavenly Father teaches me about these different people, just similar to the

01:34:28

Bible how the Egyptians, the Israelites all these different people were given commandments and while sometimes we can apply those scriptures directly in our lives and say oh, to me that I can translate that to mean this to me now

01:34:47

I don't think any of it's meant to be necessarily translated, there's many ways

01:34:53

I don't know if there's many that are meant to be translated like literally, like oh, it says we have to be perfect, be perfect, crap

01:35:01

Isn't that a standard though? We would agree that's a standard, we have to be perfect I think if you're not shooting at a target you're not going to hit a target.

01:35:09

What is the target? You could say, you tell me, what's your target? I told you what my target is I didn't hear yours, but mine is to be like God Achieve the highest degree of exaltation

01:35:19

I can. Mine is to glorify God and yours is to achieve the highest level of exaltation

01:35:24

Well, through my relationship I don't deny that you believe we need grace I'm not accusing you of that I'm just saying that and you've heard me and we can go round and round and I want to respect your time, man.

01:35:35

And thank you Josh for talking with us because we appreciate it. A lot of guys have just again shrugged us off and so the fact that you have been here spending time with us, we appreciate it

01:35:42

Our true hope for you Josh and you've heard this a million times from us is that when you lay down at night and you're there before the

01:35:50

Heavenly Father you're there before God, that you can know that you know that everything that is needed to be with Heavenly Father as close as you can ever be has been finished on behalf of those that trust in Christ.

01:36:01

That there's nothing we could possibly add to the perfect work of Jesus. Yes, we must work.

01:36:07

We're not those Christians out here saying don't do good works Ephesians 2 is very... No Don't misrepresent me now

01:36:14

Ephesians 2 says you're saved by grace through faith, but then it says after that prepare to work walk in the good works that have been laid before you.

01:36:23

I've known David for a long time. Dale tried this early dunk on me, he was like well, but do you think by what really works

01:36:28

I'm like... What? Finish that sentence I said how can someone be justified in front of God?

01:36:35

We would not say good works are involved in justification but of course any true Christian is going to have their part.

01:36:41

You know what you're trying to do David No, no, no, I'm telling you you're misrepresenting me right now My brother in Christ No, no, we're not brothers we're not brothers.

01:36:51

What? I believe we're all brothers, I believe Christ created all of us and we're all brothers and sisters

01:36:58

Well, see I think we could get caught in a little bit of the details there. What would you say when Jesus...

01:37:03

If you read the Bible that Satan existed in the war in heaven and Satan led an army in rebellion against God You're talking about the book of Revelation That's a whole other topic we can do that is not correct

01:37:17

You said the Bible is infallible. No, no, no, I'm saying what you're saying about it What I'm saying is what's the standard by which we judge those interpretations

01:37:25

You're saying the Bible teaches that Satan existed eternally in heaven we would deny that.

01:37:31

The Bible does not teach that I don't know if I would say he existed eternally in heaven Where did he come from? Genuine question Where did

01:37:36

Satan come from? Hmm Was he an offspring of Elohim and a heavenly mother?

01:37:42

That's my understanding I could be wrong though That's a less important detail really Again, we get to the pearly gates and it's like Question!

01:37:50

Satan came from where? And they're like, uh Sorry, wrong answer

01:37:55

But also, did you believe in the wrong Christ? Yes, listen You believed in a different man who died on the cross for all your sins

01:38:03

And you're like, well now listen I believe in this Christ that is taught about the Bible. Wait a sec

01:38:08

But did you also believe in the book of Mormon? He's like, yeah, I believe that too Well then, you're not welcome here

01:38:15

I hope you hear yourself right now I do hear myself. It's reverberating through my ear bones Real question

01:38:21

Does that laugh at you? I can see what you're saying. We can laugh a little bit about Satan. I do think the question under that is the important question

01:38:28

And it's actually the one you went to right after that is Who is Jesus? Does it matter who we think

01:38:35

Jesus is? Where's that line? Why couldn't I say as I did earlier, Jesus is the light post

01:38:40

Jesus is the motorcycle and I bow down and I worship him Well, we know it. I mean, it's a ludicrous proposal.

01:38:48

Christ is only talked about in scripture So we know, there's no, I've never seen a scripture where it says

01:38:53

Christ, the lamppost Do you see one that says he's not? Uh Well Josh, I hope you recognize

01:39:01

Where in the bible did you see that God wasn't a mouse? That's my point I hope you recognize what you're doing

01:39:08

You're saying we go to scripture and that's how we know who Jesus is and we're saying that if we go to scripture

01:39:14

Jesus had to have created Satan and you're saying no. That's what you're saying You're saying he didn't create Satan You agree with us

01:39:22

I could be wrong We don't want that for you though Here's a gotcha for you

01:39:27

Again, we're back in heaven Back in heaven We get there and we're asked these same questions and whoever's judging us is going to say hey question

01:39:43

Daniel Satan was created by whom? You say I say

01:39:49

Jesus and he says wrong answer and he says you're to hell with you

01:39:54

Do you think that, does that fit what your belief of God is? What would the difference be between maybe we understand

01:40:04

Jesus Christ differently and you think God has so little tolerance for us that he says you?

01:40:14

Have you read 2 John? I'm sure you have but I haven't read it in a while I believe it's 2 John I'll be quiet in a sec

01:40:20

This was one of the two points that the apostles really keyed in on There was so much that they were open handed about They would give teachings and they'd say hey this is a better way but when it came to who is

01:40:30

Jesus and who is the gospel they didn't move They said you are anathema if you have a different Christ you are anathema if you have a different gospel and I believe it's 2

01:40:39

John so forgive me if I'm wrong We're talking about this issue of did

01:40:44

Jesus actually come bodily or was he just a spirit and John the apostle

01:40:50

John the one who I believe your church says is still around and didn't die this apostle John that's a side point gotcha this

01:41:01

John said anathema if you think Jesus did not come in the body you're anathema, you're accursed you're out of it, you've lost it, you don't have a savior and so this was one of those issues that the apostles said it matters, this is an issue of salvation and so no it doesn't matter who

01:41:20

Jesus is this is important to remember the contextuality of the bible these people without being bible historians or jewish philosophers or historians that knew what was going on in the days to me, this is what my religion teaches me understand the bible for what it is it's the disciples the prophets of Christ teaching these people so perhaps there was a movement among the people at that time where they said you know what, our prophet needs to tell these people maybe there's a movement that says maybe it's been 30 years and I've heard of the story of Christ but I don't think it was actually real and that's not important because it was only 30 years ago were you alive for the twin towers?

01:42:08

I was in preschool I remember hearing through the megaphone they talked and said hey everybody we're going to take 10 minutes of silence something just happened in New York I watched it live it was insane there are people in our day that deny the holocaust happened for lack of evidence but it's important that we teach people the holocaust was real same with the

01:42:32

Armenian genocide similarly that never happened they have documents so the point is that perhaps

01:42:40

I don't know I don't know John personally I wasn't there and I'm also not a historian maybe someone who was a historian at that time could tell us a scriptural story at that time it was really important that John told those people those things so to me, what my religion teaches me is to take that story take the story of John how does that relate to me in my life what is the prophet teaching me that maybe

01:43:07

I'm not listening to that I need to listen to maybe it's something that's important maybe it's something that I might not necessarily have faith in immediately but maybe

01:43:16

I should pray about it so maybe for the time when you're talking about the story of John teaching those people that Christ was real maybe that's the story that we're supposed to take like they took at them there's a huge movement of Christians that said

01:43:28

Christ isn't real we're just Christians in the sense that that's what we do would you have said do you understand my point though there's different ways to translate the

01:43:37

Bible that being one interpreting it we take that interpretation the literal interpretation that's not necessarily useful for me

01:43:48

I live in 2002 I guess our question to you would be is it important for you to agree with Jesus in the

01:43:54

Bible or is there areas where you can say Jesus said this but I can disagree with him generally

01:44:02

I don't know if I've seen anything in the Bible that Jesus said that I'm saying in general could you say as a man that it's important for you that you agree with Jesus yeah if you disagree with him it'd be a problem you're trying to set me up for another gotcha no no no it's because the way you're approaching the way you're approaching the

01:44:25

Scriptures is this idea that the Scriptures may be in John's time they were important for his people for his audience and maybe for us they're not and I would say

01:44:33

I think they're equally important but again if we're to take the