The Already and Not Yet Gone Wrong - Scott Aniol Part 2

Today seems like a cinnamon day. You know what I mean? It's gonna be cinnamon today We are going to do part two of Scott an eel an eel

Scott an eel on on the eschatology matters podcast I don't know if you saw this but the the room for nuance guy

Shonda Mars He is he interviewed Doug Wilson and that is the second of two black pills that I was aware of last week

Black pills no, no white pills. It's all white pills around here That was the second of two white pills that I heard about last week that I couldn't really tell you about because I wasn't sure

If they were you know secret or whatever we got Doug Wilson on Tucker That was number one then we got Doug Wilson with the room for nuance podcast guy

Turns out there is some room for nuance. So that is wonderful. I don't even care how it goes.

You know what I mean? I don't even care how it goes It's a white pill to see the conversation even happen in the first place, so maybe big

Eva is learning a little bit Hey, that's a good thing. I'm very very glad to see it I fully expect

Doug to be in the fetal position within 5 .7 seconds That'll be interesting to watch but I'm looking forward to it and I may even do a response video to it

Regardless of whether it's good or bad. I'll just and if it's good, I'll just do a Very joyful happy response video.

There you go I think that would be Would be good actually Sean Sean DeMars I reached out to him and he was kind enough to answer and that's he told me about the conversation and I said

I said To him. Hey, we don't need to talk. I was all the only thing I was gonna do was encourage you to talk to Doug Instead of just taking

Ligon's word for it And he was already planning on doing it. So hats off to him good stuff.

Good stuff indeed Anyway, let's jump right into it today.

We've got we've got Scott O 'Neill here the first episode of this was I was very

Pleasant pleasantly not surprised. I guess that wasn't really that surprised that there was some agreement But I I did appreciate much of what

Scott said So I've heard that people have told me that it it gets good. And when

I say good, I mean bad Very quickly, so we'll see what happens I'll be as honest as I can be about my personal feelings on what

Scott says, but here we go. I Think it was a seven day.

I'm gonna misquote it Okay, I think it was one of the g3 events, but I'm not sure But anyway, somebody was bringing up first Corinthians 15 He shall reign or must continue reigning until his enemies have been subdued under his feet

So some of us would see that and say this is the same do something progressive that's happening now He is reigning and triumphing over his enemies

What are some of those mile markers you're looking at the same? No, no This is actually something that's waiting until he returns in the flesh

Yeah, so two two things generally and then I'll address first Corinthians 15 specifically. Yeah. Yeah, so eschatology matters

Let me just say this as well, you know people Are very you know trying various strategies to deal with Christian nationalists and some of the popular ones right now are you know?

Block all anons, you know, just block them. They know they're not, you know, they're not legitimate They're not worthy of your time and I have no problem with individuals doing that Like I said in a previous video in the aggregate

That's obviously not going to work and obviously a terrible policy in in the aggregate But as individuals do whatever you want, the other policy is saying things like well, they're not worthy of serious engagement

We just we must just expose what they believe and then you know all that kind of stuff and again

I mean, this is not ideal, right? The ideal situation is that you take it seriously the ideal situation is that they're serious engagement

But the thing is either way it works for me You know what? I mean? Because if you don't engage and you just spread our very troubling message

That works for me too because we're not hiding our very troubling message. So go for it so if you if you want to if you want to show everybody instead of engaging with us if you want to show everybody that We we you think maybe women's suffrage was not such a great idea

Maybe we should roll that back at some point in the future You think that's very troubling.

But the thing is I'm happy that you share that because it's true and I think that many people

I Believe the same thing. They just don't feel like they have permission to believe it

And so it's very similar to the woke wars one It's like, you know, I like people a lot of people feel like they need permission to believe something or just say something

So I'm certainly glad to go out there and just say it and if you're willing to spread the message as well Even while clutching your pearls hats off to you.

I appreciate that. It's not the best It's not God's best for you, but it does work and serve my own purposes quite well

It's like right -wing what wrote with a right -wing watch right -wing watch shares

Dusty Deaver's and William Wolfe and stuff like that and they've they've exposed more people to his ideas than then they could have

Themselves. It's like a it's a really funny kind of Feedback loop sort of thing.

It's not really a feedback loop, but it does signal boost what we want to get out Anyway, so hats off to you.

I appreciate it William my my take on that It's it's the it's the blood and the violence and the and the taking that literally like, you know

One of one of the things that I appreciate about Well, you know most post -millennialists as I see it is you want to take those physical earthly kinds of language and prophecies literally

I want to do that with the violent language to like when if if that's currently happening

Then then where where's where is Jesus violently overthrowing like like do you spiritualize that and just say well

That's just the threat of the gospel You know, I suppose there might be different answers by post -millennialist But for me, it's like I see these texts in the song

I mean really all the imprecatory language in the Psalms I believe is exactly that and it's why

I think we should pray and sing the imprecatory language That's an expression of hope that it's coming that Christ is going to subjugate the nations

In a when he comes again in the day of his wrath And then all nations will then will then serve him.

So it's that it's taking those that language Literally, which has not yet happened and I would say even

Jesus during his life says it's not it's not, you know he points forward to The the second coming the day of his wrath as something distinct from his first coming and his ascension

And then first Corinthians 15 So I see I see there he shall reign until He's made his enemies his footstool as describing the period between when he comes and Then comes the end

Right. So that is that is the period of the reign that he's talking about It's not happening happening gradually

In fact grammatically the language there is exactly the same as in first Corinthians 11

You observe the Lord's table until he comes well, that doesn't mean he's coming Gradually and neither does until he makes his enemies his footstool mean that happens gradually

That's describing at the end of his earthly reign So second coming his earthly reign the nations are serving him, but but they're still being people born

So there's still people being born into sin They might you know many do come to faith in Christ But some some are doing it externally because they have to because he's ruling with it with a lot of iron but but they're not submitting internally and so Revelation 20 at the end of that kingdom reign there is an uprising a rebellion and then

Finally is the final he will make he makes his enemies his footstool. It happens in a moment of time

Camera is doing things in a moment of time on there and And then at that point

There's you know, there's no no more no more enemies, you know Everyone who is now, you know revelation 21 new heavens a new earth

Obviously all our glorified believers. There's a whole lot going on here and I I don't have much to say

I'm not the kind of guy that debates eschatology too much But there's a lot there's a lot going on here but in the beginning it certainly kind of seemed to he kind of seemed to be saying that He's he's not a post -millennialist, you know

That kind of thing because there's just not enough violence in the world He needs to see more violence and ruling with an iron rod and all this kind of stuff

And since there isn't a lot of that he's Millennials need to see more violence

In minecraft, of course in minecraft Is he calling for a another another?

Crusades or something like that in minecraft, of course Yeah, I don't know

I mean I guess that's what I guess that's the future, you know another crusade I'm okay with the Crusades, you know

I mean, I I don't really know as much as I'd like to know about the Crusades but you know

I grew up in public school as a Yankee and of course, I knew that the Crusades were the the worst possible injustice ever in the history of mankind maybe except for the

Holocaust and But the more I learned about the Crusades the more the more

I realized that actually wasn't the case Interestingly enough. I wonder if there's anything else that's like that I'm an idiot.

Anyway, um Yeah, very very interesting. There's a lot going on here a lot going on here.

That's all I'm gonna say I see, you know, there there's there's three state. I see three stages in first Corinthians 15

The first you know, Jesus is resurrection then Then he comes and that's and that's the first resurrection, right?

And of course, there's all there's a wide Thousands of years period of time we don't even know how long yet between his resurrection and he coming again and then there is also a period of time between then he comes and then comes the end and that's the period where For he must reign until the point at which at the end of that reign he makes his enemies his footstool

Okay. No, that's yeah, I guess it's I Appreciate the walkthrough it's it's interesting to try to Well, especially with you matching up, you know first great

This guy's an eschatology like connoisseur. I mean, it's podcast is called eschatology matters and he's kind of you know trying to Think through his walkthrough and and and think about how best to answer

But I'll be honest, I mean like you know, one of the things that I love about post -millennialism and also preterism for that matter is

It it makes this all make a whole lot more sense It's much easier to understand and I think that that's a that's a that's an indicator

It's not doesn't mean that it's right But it's an indicator that it is because you know people had to understand this text

That's something that you always got to think about like the text can't mean what it never meant

That sounds so stupid, but it's true The people who read these books these letters they had to understand it

They had they had to know what it meant Right because that's why you write a letter you write a letter so that someone understands what you mean when you're typing up an email you're typing it up so your receiver can understand the meaning of the email and letters are the same way and so When you when you think of it from that perspective

It's it makes it very unnatural to sort of try to chop things up and to put these different phases and stages that that really couldn't make sense unless you had these other letters over here and maybe there's other

Lines over here and you had all that in mind like it's it's a very weird way to interpret some of this stuff

And so it becomes very confusing. I think with all the other systems

Maybe not all the other systems, but it becomes very confusing And I think that you know post -millennialism and preterism

You know if you put yourself in the mindset if you try to put yourself in the mindset of the original audience

It makes a whole lot more sense. And then from with the benefit of hindsight, of course, it makes even more sense

So anyway, let's let's continue the Lord's Supper for example The Lord's Supper being something prolonged and ongoing

But but then to take to take first Corinthians 15, it's kind of more of a punctiliar, you know singular climactic event

Is there what's the comparison? Yeah, the comparison would be yes. The Lord's Supper is ongoing until he comes punctiliar

He he must reign Ongoing during the millennial period until he makes his enemies his footstool punctiliar

So it's the enemy's his footstool, but I would assume you would say that's gradually happening right now

Yeah, whereas I would say no no that happens punctiliarly That's if that's a word at the end of his earthly reign.

That's that's the comparison The ongoing is observing the Lord's Supper. Okay, the punctiliar is till he comes quick quick qualifying question

Because because obviously we're gonna get more into the kingdom here in a second Satan's defeat and the inauguration of the kingdom where you at on those because because you just I'm trying to make sure we cover all the boxes because like you described with a

George Eldon lad, there's there's like some some amalgamated views out there and I want to make sure we're representing what you're putting forth

But like, you know My perspective would be that Christ's kingdom is now that it is ongoing that there's a climactic victory during this kingdom that sort of thing

But what are you seeing as far as like the defeat of Satan? Is that something current is the kingdom something current and ongoing?

And I'll also ask with the kingdom. Do you see any sort of growth in this age? Or is it something sort of I don't want to say flat but you know what?

I mean like a sort of a more of a flat victory until Christ returns Yeah, so yeah, so a couple things there the

Yeah, so, you know The kingdom the the the physical

Literal aspects of the kingdom of Christ Which again based on the prophecies I want to take those literally and say where Jesus is reigning on his throne in Jerusalem and The nations are bowing and and by the way,

I mean, this is another reason. I think it can't be now is You know people are living a lot longer

There's less health and disease the animals are are living in harmony with man and other animals, right?

That's all happening after the coming of Christ. All of that is future after after Christ's coming there is

There is and this is where I would see overlap with up with a mill To a certain degree because they would disagree at that part, but I do see okay there is a an aspect of the kingdom that is already in terms of People being made kingdom citizens through the gospel so that and and then so to your last question there that is growing that is what

I see, you know, the the The parables about the gradual growth referring to is the gradual growth of the kingdom

Citizenship that occurs through the gospel during this age No, I you know with regard to Satan.

I mean Satan has been defeated, right? He was defeated at the cross It's a done deal, but he's not yet been executed and I wouldn't say he's bound that does not happen the binding of Satan that language

Doesn't happen until after Christ comes again either and then he is released at the end of that rain And that's why there is this major uprising and finally

Christ subdues his enemies once and for all But there, you know, it is a done deal right at the cross

Has secured the defeat of Satan and particularly for Christians? Satan has no power over believers because of our relationship to Christ.

So in that sense Satan has no You know, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of language of comfort in the

New Testament about how we may not fear That you know somehow

Satan could snatch us out of the father's head and that kind of language but at the same time We need to be vigilant because he is seeking whom he might devour

And this, you know present evil age is still in the power of the evil one to a certain extent

John says But he's so he's not bound in in that sense of language, but the cross of course did you know

Satan crushed the serpents head At the cross he did defeat him out at the cross. It's just his execution.

His final execution is still yet to come So two questions one to qualify that and then one a lot of already, you know already and not yet type stuff

I I'm not the only one I don't think that that does not find the already and not yet the way it's often

Presented as as very helpful at all It's attempt. It's an attempt to sort of smooth over some things that don't make sense so you say well, you know, it's yeah, it is already but not quite yet at the same time and you know, oftentimes that just means like That you shouldn't try to do things and that's the thing.

That's the problem with with Scott's perspective here. It's like This is all well and good. I don't have

I'm not gonna debate with Scott about this It's not it's not to me. It's not my area. It's not worth it to me in you know,

Josh, of course, this is his area, so it's definitely worth it to him, but But I don't really care so much about that It's just that when the already and not yet becomes an excuse to do nothing or to fight people that are doing something

That don't really believe it the way you do and you fight against them because it's like well, it's not yet Even though it's already

The already and not yet I think is is is is okay so long as it's from a perspective of you know

Yes, it's already and there's a lot more to come. You know, it's not complete. It's already but not complete

That's much more helpful in my opinion Because it doesn't tend it doesn't lend itself to like some sort of false pietistic inaction

The already and not yet often leads to a sort of weird inaction

Not always but often it does and so I don't really like the already and not yet Then I'm not quite sure if we would see it on this one or not.

So the first one will be about Satan specifically With Satan, obviously,

I've written some on that Josh Josh is Josh is kind of like cross -politic in the sense that he looks for agreement and I like that I mean, that's

I like that style. I personally don't use that style too much, but I do

Occasionally and I think people notice that in fact, I got a really nice letter from somebody. Oh, man This is this is such a nice letter.

It was just the other day like a few days ago and He said that there was a video that I did

You know years ago and he had commented to me that that he agreed with my video but encouraged me to to try to look for Positives and to look to look for ways to agree

With people that I'm criticizing and I never respond to that comment because I don't respond to every comment

Anyway, he reached out to me just the other day and he goes. Hey, man I don't know if you remember this but I sent you this this email this message and And you know,

I didn't need to send that because you do that all the time I just you know It didn't really look and I appreciate that I do

I do try to give credit where credit is due and to try to build bridges where I can and stuff like that And that's just part of what

I do. So anyway, I appreciate that. But but Josh is really good at that I mean, he's asking these qualifying questions and in a way they're they're

Serving to make a distinction between him and what Scott's saying But also in another way, they're trying to find agreement where he can and that's very skillful.

Good job, Josh Howard but uh as far as Satan's binding goes so Just without because I don't want to I don't want to like derail the conversation

But just like thinking toward his binding and specifically to the strongman passages, which you know I've written from you know for free grace press was where that book came through But um, but when you see the strongman passage

You see that similar language of Satan or the strongman who is Satan having been bound and it's got that same

Same verbiage same word usage as you see in Revelation 20, but without even getting to Revelation 20 What do you make of those strongman passages where Christ says that through his through his work?

He has bound the strongman that he may plunder his house and plunder his goods Yeah, so again,

I would see that as language of You know using a sort of present tense as an expression of it's a certainty.

It's a done deal Because I would ask like he's Christ is saying that before his death burial resurrection and ascension, right?

And yet he's saying as if it's already done but Isn't isn't he going to do that on the cross?

So I think you see that a lot you see that in the Old Testament to where Future realities that really haven't yet actually come to pass are expressed in sort of present tense

Terminology because they're a done deal right and and I think I would say that's what Christ is saying by virtue of his cross

It is already as if Satan is bound even though it's not an actual reality yet It's yet to come but it's a certainty because of Christ's perfect life his death burial resurrection and ascension

Okay, that's fair. I mean, I would I would disagree just just with the especially with the setting of that passage

You've got Christ casting out demons and he says if you see this, you know Yeah I got a demons you can know that the that the kingdom of God has come upon you and then he describes it as this

Binding of the strong man So it seems to be set like right there in his work like you guys see me casting these demons out I've accomplished this thing

So I get the kind of proleptic fulfillment part of it, but we would okay So we I get that I get that completely but I would say that's true

My interpretation is true of all of the demon casting out of both Jesus and the Apostles and all of the miracles, too

Right. I think those miracles are meant They're they're foreshadowing what it's gonna be like in the kingdom the lame will walk the blind will see and all of this so all of that is

Get Confirming that Jesus is the Messiah and then in the book of Acts that the

Apostles are his messengers with foretastes of What is going to take place in the kingdom, but it's also why

I'm a cessationist I think there was a period of time in which those were in effect in order to confirm

Christ and his Apostles But now they're not because that's not what this age is about and So all of that the kingdom is at hand language is exactly what

Christ is saying. Yes, the kingdom is at hand I'm the king, you know recognize what's going on here

But I wouldn't see that him as him saying the king the kingdom has started or is about to start or whatever

So I mean, this is the thing, right? So that's again. This is all well and good right the already and the not yet, you know

And this is why I don't want to call it the already and not yet Because the already and not yet This would be like and take it out of this context for just a second,

I'll put it right back in When when Scott talks about Christian governments and politics and nations

It would be like if he sees this passage and says, all right Jesus was giving the foretaste of the kingdom where the lame will walk the blind will see and all the rest and so it is not right for Christians to do scientific research and to You know figure out a way to make blind people be able to see and I'm gonna fight against it

In fact, that's dangerous. That's dangerous and it's not Christian in any way and that's not what

Christians ought to do He would never say that about doctors who are trying to help the blind see, right?

Even if they were Christian doctors and said look I'm a Christian doctor and I'm gonna do what I can in this area

I'm an eye doctor and I want to help the blind see you know what I mean? And and he would never have a problem with that, obviously

But it only becomes a problem when you put it in the context of politics and Christian nations Why why is that the one area and the thing is there's a lot more in the

Bible about governance Governance and in law and stuff like that So why would that be the one area where he wants to fight against that kind of stuff because it's not

Christian and it's not For right now. That's not for right now He would never say that to a doctor that says

I'm gonna help the blind see, you know with my doctoring He wouldn't say I said that's not for right now.

That was just a foretaste. It's the already and not yet It wouldn't make sense to say that of course You would see that as a good thing and a very legitimate

Christian thing to do But when it comes to politics, all of a sudden all bets are off.

It doesn't make any sense at All at all Saying that's still yet to come.

I'm just showing you I have power over Satan And and I'm doing these miracles to confirm that I'm Messiah and all of that so that I get

I totally pray for like God to be working through the hands of their doctors, right and that's fine.

You can pray for that I'm not I'm not against that But there's a whole lot less in the Bible about God working through the hands of a doctor

Then there is about God working through the civil governing authority You know what? I mean the civil governing authority needs to kiss the

Sun The civil governing authority needs to bow the knee to Christ take their orders from the Lord directly

Like again, there's so much in the Bible about this about nations honoring the

Lord and how a nation That honors the Christ is Lord is blessed.

You know what I mean? Like this there's so much in the Bible about that For kings and for rulers and governors and all that stuff.

There's so much But in in this context, it's okay. But in the other cut it's it just becomes very very weird.

Very weird and then Affirming like a Like a sort of defeat of Satan there in the time of Christ though Like I'm thinking like John 12 31 32, right?

You've got the whole now is the judgment of this world now will the ruler of this world be cast down? Iqbal Oh thrown from something so like you're still affirming though.

There was some sort of defeat of Satan then that's that's still the cross Cross and it's so it's an already not yet With with Satan and with the kingdom at the cross right the cross did defeat

Satan But already and not yet is totally fine I feel like I have to say this because I know a lot of you believe in the already and not yet and are

Say it all the time and I do too as long as it's understood correctly The already and not yet is fine.

So long as you don't use the not yet version to discourage legitimate

Christian action today and It's not like we think we're ushering in the kingdom of God that we're gonna do it and all that kind of stuff it's that we do it as as as Servants of the

Lord right? The Lord is the one doing it. We're just servants and so The already not yet is fine

I've got no beef with you if you use that phrase because a lot of people grew up with that phrase and Find it very helpful.

I have the benefit in my opinion of not really growing up with phrases like that Even though I went to church.

It wasn't that kind of church. And so I didn't have those phrases as part of my Understanding of everything until I was an adult and I you know,

I could see the deficiency in that It's just that it's so often leads to a fighting against other

Christians that are taking action because you're like no It's not yet. It's later Think of the think of the eye doctor the

Christian eye doctor who is attempting to create a Treatment or a surgery or something to help the blind see you know what

I mean? He doesn't think he's doing the miracle that Christ did when he helped the blind see that was a completely different thing

But he understands that that's a legitimate good right Christian enterprise and there's nothing wrong with that And so he's like yeah already and not yet But I'm gonna still do what

I can with my skills with my role with my Duties before the Lord and I'm gonna you know, help the blind see with this surgery or whatever it is, right?

I don't know how it works That's the that's the already and not yet that I can get behind.

You know what I mean? Yes, that passage means something and it didn't mean that I was gonna do eye surgery But this eye surgery is is awesome

And this is a good thing and we can see that in the passage and I'm gonna do it And maybe I'll never figure it out.

And maybe the blind won't see until Christ comes back that being said I'm gonna work. I'm gonna do what

I can. I'm gonna make the world a better place. I believe in human flourishing That's the kind of already not yet I can get behind that's why

I like it to be already but much more to come Execution it just leads to more action.

I think right sure Yeah, and I would I would agree with that We're just kind of parsing it a little different or even the even even the binding it's not okay

So it's really the binding we're having issue with so you're still seeing a defeat There's there's still a fulfillment, but you're just saying the binding is there with okay, that's that's helpful

Scott Okay The second question I was gonna ask just that that little two -parter just the second question on that was so with the nation's

Because I think we can we can actually start to move forward there But um with the nation's would you see like for example,

Matthew 28 the Great Commission being called to disciple the nation's I know there's been some You know some stuff bantered around about whether this can be the nation's or just people from the nation's and all of that But like if we can just kind of try to skip past the the you know, definite article usage, right?

are you still seeing nations in some sort being envisioned in the Great Commission as people groups as some sort of Yeah, some sort of cross

Bible reality. Yeah, I mean kind of and I think there's definitely an intentional connection between how that how

Jesus phrased that and The you know, the Davidic Covenant and the prophecies that he is going to inherit the nation's right

I think that's probably embedded in there and right already anticipating that the

Jews who are gonna not understand the role of the Gentiles and missionary impulse to go out

I think that's I think that's probably the larger thing like the the point is You you go out and spread this gospel message to people from every ethnic

You know every people group every ethnicity Does it mean?

Evangelize or disciple the nation's I mean, I I don't I just don't get what that looks like What does that mean?

What does that mean to disciple the nation's like if it means it means to make students of the nation so that When the nation's consider as nations

What they should do in a certain circumstance The first instinct that they have is to okay.

Well, what does the Lord say about this? Does the Lord address this can we take?

Application from the things that the Lord does address and apply it to this situation over here, which maybe he doesn't directly address

That's what a student does right a student studies What their master what their teacher teaches

So that's what it would look like It's not it's it's really not as complicated as as as the g3 team has made it seem

I'm gonna get a disciple Greece. Yeah Yeah Yeah, it would be a good thing for Greece as a nation to consider and seek out what the the master what their

Lord Teaches about certain topics. In fact, this is what we used to do.

We're at least attempt You know what? I mean, obviously you didn't do it perfectly and this is the old Christian nationalism always fails.

It's doomed It's like well, I mean that's like saying Christianity always fails. It's doomed because we didn't always get it, right?

We didn't always lead to the great place We led to where we are today right where there's all this division and all this confusion.

Well, obviously Christianity didn't fail People fail that's very true

But it's very different than saying that that God's not clear or God's not, you know, he's not

He doesn't give us the information that we need that's very different kind of thing. It's really not that confusing

Yeah, you disciple the nations Make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything

God commands It's I mean it says it right in the text itself what what that looks like what that means

Preach the gospel to people from every nation and then those who come to faith you baptize them and then you teach them everything that Christ has commanded

Okay. Yes, absolutely Beyond that I just don't you know, it's fuzzy to me when people make a big deal about well

This means to disciple the nations and this means baptize the nations I don't even know what that looks like except for the sort of Christian nationalist or theonomy or obviously different permutations of What it might look like in this age for a nation to self -identify as a nation and there

I would say No, I don't see that in this age. Okay, so Alright, and so we're gonna stop there.

I've been at it for 35 minutes. So I hope you found this video helpful We'll continue in the next one.