August 11, 2022 Show with Virgil Walker & Darrell Bernard Harrison on “When Denominations Go Wrong”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

11th day of August 2022.

I'm thrilled to have two of my very favorite guests return to the

program today and.

They are none other than the co -hosts of the just thinking podcast

Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison.

Virgil Walker is also an author and the executive director of operations at g3

ministries and.

Let me welcome you to the program first Virgil.

Hey, thanks for having me.

It's great to have you on the program.

Why don't you tell our listeners about g3 ministries?

Yeah, g3 ministries I was looking at a

Comment the other day folks are trying to figure out what g3 stands for.

And so it stands for gospel grace and glory.

It is a conference based ministry that has really switched its focus delivering

fantastic conferences.

But in addition to that producing a lot of fantastic content.

For churches for church pastors church leaders Folks in the pew our

desire in every way is to is to make sure that folks who are receiving just sound.

Biblical.

Books resources You name it Curricula in an effort to make sure that

that they're properly educated.

And equipped for the work of ministry.

So that's what g3 is about.

We push forward all of that content both on our websites as well as you

know on our app.

You can check us out that g3 men dot org.

Praise God and now we also have joining us Darrell Bernard Harrison,

and he is an author and dean of social media at grace to you, which is the media ministry of

Dr. John MacArthur, and it's great to have you back as well Darrell.

Hey Chris, how are you doing my friend?

Thanks for having me back.

I need to mention one thing Chris because it's been a minute since I've been on your program and since then

God has shown me incredible grace speaking of grace to you and that I've gotten a promotion recently to a

new role.

So I'm no longer dean of social media.

I'm now the director of digital platforms.

Which still includes social media as one of my responsibilities but yeah now my my

new title is director of digital platforms for grace to you, but That

notwithstanding.

It's good to be back with you my friend.

Always good to be back with my guy.

Amen.

And if anybody wants more information about grace to you the media ministry of world -renowned

evangelist author and Pastor John MacArthur go to gty .org

gty .org and.

Why don't you tell us we'll start with Virgil since Darryl spoke last Virgil.

Why don't you tell us about? the just thinking podcast.

That you and Darryl co -host well that I mean, we'll probably both jump into this this

piece right here.

Just thinking is really the brainchild of Darryl based off of his blog.

We connected about coming up coming.

We'll be closing in on five years here in December.

Where we've gotten together and and really amplified all of the work that Darryl

put in on the blog really taking the cultural issues pushing them through the

lens of a biblical worldview and really unpacking them and Kind of an expository way.

I mean, it's it's it's more of an expository podcast.

We take our time Unpacking issues and just making sure that people are incredibly equipped

to deal with issues of the day.

I think I think probably for the most part folks know us for the CRT related issues

that we engage in as well as it, you know anything black lives matter, but that's not all that we do.

We run the gamut of a lot of different areas.

I love what Darryl says when he says that we are theologians and as a result of that We really try to

cover the gamut.

In fact, I know that I don't want to toss anything too early.

Darryl I'll let Darryl Darryl do that.

But we're looking at some some topics that aren't in the vein of necessarily the the host.

The whole social justice component really opens the door for other other issues that that need to be addressed

and Darryl.

I know that as Virgil just indicated this

podcast.

Came out of a blog that you were operating solo at one point for quite a while in

fact.

That's when I first learned of you and dr. Tom Askell of founders ministries.

Told me you've got to get Darryl Bernard Harrison on your program.

He has this incredible blog called just thinking and that's when we first made contact.

But it was our mutual friend Dwayne Atkinson of the bar and I don't mean a place

where you have cocktails.

That that stands for biblical and reformed.

Many people jump to the conclusion immediately that it stands for black and reform since Darryl I

mean since Dwayne is black, but it is not it's biblical and reform.

And he was the one that really Enthusiastically suggested that you guys unite

for a blog I mean for a podcast and you initially were adamantly opposed to the

idea.

Am I right?

Yeah, that's actually that that's a true story Chris Matter of fact Virgil and Dwayne

approached me individually about the idea of joining Virgil on a podcast that that

Dwayne would support and I turned them both down and the reason I did is because I didn't

see myself as being particularly gifted.

A Particularly gifted speaker.

I didn't think that my gifts were in the area of speaking, you know orally into a microphone

On a podcast platform as Virgil allude to earlier.

I've been doing my blog at just thinking for myself for six or seven years

by the time God brought me across the path of Virgil and Dwayne.

So I was strongly Dogmatic that my gift was writing my my my

my my area of skill was in Putting my fingers to a keyboard and

typing words out.

I wasn't gifted and so I didn't see myself that way as being gifted To articulate my thoughts

through a microphone.

So that was the rationale behind me turning that idea down.

But God as he so often Demonstrates in our lives had completely different

plans for me and as Virgil Alluded to earlier here.

We are almost five years later With the just thinking podcast having recently surpassed

5 .1 million plays of our episodes is just incredible.

Wow.

And if anybody wants to find out more about the just thinking podcast go to just thinking dot me.

That's just thinking dot m e and.

All three of us have to make a note the next time we do this, which I hope is soon.

We've got to get Dwayne Atkinson on our program with us on on the

interview.

Have him join us.

Yeah, yeah, Dwayne would be an incredible addition to this conversation because again we

Virgil I refer to Dwayne as the hardest -working man in podcast land.

I mean Dwayne under his biblical and reformed network manages numerous

Podcasts and so the just thinking podcast is not the only Podcast that falls under that network.

He has his own Podcast that he hosts where he brings guests on the Senate

interview format.

But then he's got numerous other podcasts and whenever anyone reaches out to Virgil or or

me wanting counsel advice guidance on whether or not to start a

podcast what contributes to the success of a podcast without hesitation

Virgil I refer those folks to Dwayne.

He's an incredibly talented Individual guys gifted him in many many ways that he's.

He's been an incredible partner and friend and brother for Virgil and me.

And in fact, I'm gonna use this opportunity to brag about my program.

Dwayne Atkinson has been a listener in the iron sharpens iron radio audience for a very long time

going back to 2005 when we first launched the show and he told me

when I first met him.

In fact, I was walking past his booth one of the g3 conferences a

Number of years ago and he called out to me and he told me that I was a primary inspiration to

him entering into the podcast field, so I was Enormously humbled and blessed

and honored with the privilege of hearing that that was that was great for him to share that with

me.

And Also, I was just gonna say Chris that's real that's really high praise coming from a guy like doing

yes.

Yes, and if anybody wants more information on

the bar podcast network Go to the bar podcast calm

the bar podcast calm and.

I.

Believe I got the right Website for that.

Yes, I do.

I was starting to get nervous that I was indeed Promoting the website of a tavern,

but now I see I See Dwayne's picture.

So I breathe the sigh of relief.

Well before we go into our theme, there are two major events That you two

are going to be speaking at and I am god -willing going to be at both of them.

The first is coming up very soon.

It's going to be held August 20th and the 21st Which is a Saturday and Sunday.

In.

Larksville, Pennsylvania and Specifically at High Point Baptist Church of Larksville,

Pennsylvania.

And it is actually titled the just thinking podcast conference.

Virgil since Daryl spoke last.

Why don't you tell us about this conference?

Yeah, we were we were excited to get the call.

From the folks there who wanted us to come up and and the folks in high point reached out Greg Hauser

his team.

There were wanting us to come up and just talk about issues related to social justice.

They are especially in the area of education in the great state of Pennsylvania dealing with

so many issues related to The critical race theory being taught in schools, of course,

they're not calling it that anymore a lot of the church members dealing with you

know diversity inclusion and equity.

Diversity equity and inclusion just all of those related issues that everybody is

dealing with the the The issue of social justice folks thought you know, this is kind of a flash in the pan.

Maybe this will be something that that shows its head rears its head and and goes back into hiding and it's you

know.

It's no more, but the reality is.

Unfortunately, we it's permeated every facet of culture every area from from

economics to politics.

Any any area that that you can think of.

Education it's it's a part of and so as believers in Christ and you know in God's

grace.

They're wanting to in the folks at high point are wanting to ensure that their people Have

their arms around this and are able to address it from a biblical world view and so reached

out and and asked for Daryl and me to come and You know, I'm excited about about the

opportunity it'll be a great chance to to really educate and equip some folks.

Yes, and Daryl.

Are there any specific headings that you're aware of yet?

On topics that you and Virgil will be speaking on at this event.

Yeah, there are and matter of fact if folks want more information of about more specifics around the actual

schedule that they can just go to the high point Baptist Church website and check that

out, but.

Yes, I'm going to be speaking on the interconnectedness of critical race theory and Marxism.

And then Virgil is going to be speaking on how critical race theory entered the culture.

And what's really cool about how Virgil and I?

Sort of play off one another on this particular topic.

Is that we we never?

Cross pollinate one another and what I mean by that is that although we're going to be speaking under one

cohesive thematic topic the way our individual

messages are distinct from one another is.

What is this is one of the attractions of a conference like this because although going to be focusing on critical race theory

These are virgin or I cross the line into each other's topic.

So you're going to hear very distinctly and very uniquely Perspectives and commentary

through a biblical worldview on various aspects of critical race theory and some of

the elements some of the attributes that go into that Overall theme so I'll be speaking

on on day one of the conference on the interconnectedness of critical race theory of Marxism.

Virgil will be speaking on how critical race theory in the culture and then there'll be a Q &A with

Virgil myself and then pastor Matt pastors Matt tar and Greg Hauser and then to close out

day one I'm going to be speaking on a message titled.

The problem is enmity not ethnicity.

The problem is enmity.

Not ethnicity.

And then on Sunday morning, August 21st bird is going to be preaching.

On a message title one body in Christ is going to be preaching out of Ephesians chapter 2 verses 11 through

22.

So so there you have that that day and a half Conference right there in a nutshell.

So I would strongly encourage folks who are able to get to that conference at High Point Baptist Church in large.

We'll do everything you can to make that yes.

I have had the great honor and privilege and joy to know and fellowship

with an interview pastor Matt tar and I urge anybody

listening if you want to hear any Interviews I've conducted with him go to the iron sharpens

iron website iron sharpens iron radio .com iron sharpens iron radio .com and type in

tar in the search engine ta RR.

And you will hear the interviews.

I've had the privilege to conduct with Matt are a very bold voice for

the truth of Christ's Word in a very compromising world and

So I'm thrilled that the three of you have hooked up.

And Greg as well.

Greg Hauser over there at High Point Baptist Church.

To make this happen. I will be manning God willing an exhibitors booth there.

And I'll also be manning an exhibitors booth once again.

I believe this may be my seventh year at the g3 conference.

This is my first time at a regional conference.

All of my other Appearances at the g3.

We're in Atlanta, but this time it's going to be in Washington DC

and that will be here before you know it in fact next month.

And Virgil why don't you tell us about this exciting conference

the g3 regional conference in Washington DC.

Titled just thinking about the Bible.

Yes, we're extremely excited about this particular conference.

It's a it's a little bit of a departure from what we've done previously.

Normally we have the big national conference There in Atlanta, which will continue to do that.

It'll be every other year In addition to the on the off years.

The our founding president. Dr. Josh Bice decided that he wanted to do smaller

conferences regional conferences.

And would like to place those position those in places where The gospel light

was dim.

And so we kind of looked around the country trying to figure out where that would be a good good spot.

That would be and and you know While we what why I don't think any one of us could could sit down and say, you know

What we mapped out this plan and and and had it hatched to be in DC I can't think of a better place

or a better time.

Given the nature of all the things that are happening in culture for us to be headed to That

area of the country and so the other piece is I'm excited because we're going to be talking

About us the subject matter that matters most and and that's the Bible.

We we teamed up with just thinking just thinking and g3 teamed up to

come together with with the idea of Making sure people understand the need for

biblical sufficiency all the issues that we talked about before.

Related to the culture wars, whether it's social justice or critical race theory, especially with

regard to issues of race issues of gender all of those issues Surround themselves

with with the you know with Genesis 3 with the idea of identity.

And for believers we should be anchored in the truth of God's Word to the degree that we're

not tossed to and fro by these Foreign ideas that are that are kind of coming up, you know coming

everywhere we turn.

We should be really anchored in the truth of God's Word.

But what we're seeing is Christians are capitulating on these issues right and left.

And so we thought it would be important for us to go back to the book Unpack the scripture

and really walk through what what the Bible what the Bible has to say not only about these issues But

to demonstrate its sufficiency in addressing particular issues, so we've got

Dr. Josh vice dr. Stephen Lawson.

Dr. James White a Darrell Harrison, of course myself Dr. Scott annual

as well we've got we've added a couple of additional speakers to be talking with us more in a in

either a breakout or a.

Or a.

Conversation panel.

We have the Lano Squires and and Jenna Ellis will be joining us as well.

And so we're looking forward to this.

I will say I'm excited to see Tickets are getting closer and closer to being sold out.

And so I'm going to encourage folks to to make their plans to to be a part.

I just got an email about the about even the hotel situation is beginning to pack up.

We have some incredible Discounted rates given the nature of of the economy right now.

We wanted to make sure that this was something that was affordable to those who could participate.

So we've got some great hotel rates as well.

You can go on our website at g3 men org and and check out those

The hotels that are available.

Those are again filling up fast and once they do, you know, the the other the other hotels around the area are you

know or not as The the amounts of money that you'll end up paying will be a little bit more so I

would just encourage you if you're thinking about Participating a to register and do it quickly and then make

sure you get your hotel arrangements made.

But yeah, we're looking forward to this conference September 15th through the 17th.

Amen, and you have got to.

Hook me up with brother Squires and sister Ellis so that I can interview both of them

Prior to the conference as well.

I would love to have them both.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll definitely reach out and.

Let me repeat the websites for both of these events.

For the event in Larksville, Pennsylvania on August 20th and 21st

Which is a Saturday and Sunday at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania

Which is the just thinking podcast conference go to highpointbaptist .com

highpointbaptist .com.

And for the G3 regional conference in Washington DC

September 15th through the 17th, which is a

Thursday Friday and Saturday You can go to G3 men

org G3 men org and you'll be hearing ads

throughout the remainder of this broadcast promoting.

The.

Just thinking about the Bible Conference in Washington DC.

So I hope as many of you will attend and please as always approach me and greet me at my iron

sharpens iron radio exhibitors booth.

That is always the highlight of my time at any of these conferences is when I know I not only

Introduce the iron trip and Zion radio program to new listeners.

But I meet many many many many people who I've never even heard from before

Who love this program who have listened to it for years sometimes?

And some who have supported the program financially, so it's always a An absolute

joy to be at these events no matter where I am in the United States.

I always have people approach me at these exhibitors booths when I'm at conferences who tell me how much

iron trip and Zion radio means to them and That means the world to me.

It motivates me to continue to press on Before we go to our first

break.

I just want the two of you to introduce.

And we'll start with Darrell this time introduce the topic cultural denominationalism.

What happens when a denomination goes wrong?

Introduce that to our audience Darrell.

I'm sure That the vast majority of people when they hear that term cultural

denominationalism It will sound very foreign to them.

It will be a new phrase to them as it was to me.

So why don't you define that Darrell?

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to do that Chris folks who are longtime listeners to the just thinking podcast

know and Virgil kind of alluded to this earlier The reason the just thinking podcast is one of the

reasons anyway That just thinking is an expositional podcast is that we take our time to define terms

Virgil are very dogmatic that unless and until you define terms you really don't have anything to talk about because

is the definition of terms that Establishes the context of what you're talking about and context

is incredibly important matter of fact, I would argue that context is one of the aspects of

dialogue and Discussion that is so often lost people get hung up on the on

words that they don't even know the meaning of and then you End up talking past one another and not solving

anything.

So when it comes to this the title of our latest episode cultural denominationalism, there's two things That

I would like your listeners Chris to understand.

First of all that that's us the suffix Ism in though in the second part of that that

title the word denominational ism.

The ism is incredibly important there because we've had people approach us after listening to that

episode thinking well, I thought this episode was about a Denomination.

I thought it was about cultural denominations.

Well, it's not and it is at the same time.

But what we're talking about with respect to cultural denominational ism.

We are talking about The the behavior

or the character the nature of once

Orthodox Biblically sound biblically false focal focus gospel

centered evangelistic center evangelism center denominations

That have sold themselves out to cultural

applause cultural acclaimed cultural trends cultural fads for the sake

of cultural embracement Attention and accolades and at the expense

of that gospel proclamation that biblical

Centeredness Upon which those denominations

Originated so that's what we mean by the ism.

Now when you listen to the episode what you'll find is That we do

center on one Contemporary example of what that ism

looks like within a particular denomination.

But what I want your listeners to understand is that overall and this is this episode on cultural denominational ism was

a more than three hour episode it's about three hours and 13 minutes is that what we're doing is

we're walking through a history of product of Protestant denominational ism and

What those parts of denominations once Stood upon in agreement with

respect to what the gospel was and and how to communicate that gospel and then we

bring you into the 21st century and Give you an inside look through a biblical

lens about what some of those same denominations have done and totally

acquiescing to cultural Acceptance so as to totally in

many cases to various degrees Denied the gospel altogether that

they were found that those denominations were founded upon.

And when you think about the root word of denominational ism Chris that word

denominate.

Well by definition to denominate means to distinguish.

It means to differentiate yourself.

I spent many years working in the banking and finance industry and the reason your currency is referred

to as a denomination is Because one denomination is not the other.

Your $20 bill is not your $50 bill your $10 bill is not your $5 bill.

Your $1 bill is not a $100 bill.

Those bills are called denominations because they they are Differentiated they are distinct.

The $50 bill is worth only $50 No more No less the $20

bill.

The same thing applies and what we have with contemporary denominational denominations today in Protestant

event in Protestant evangelical evangelicalism is That

they've changed they've changed the meaning of their denominations.

Maybe they've become they've become $3 bills.

They be they become less they be they they are no longer what they profess to be.

Let's put it that way.

They are they are again to use the currency example.

They're they're proving themselves to be counterfeits and nobody wants to be stuck with the counterfeit

$50 bill.

Amen, and when you were talking about this moments ago the importance of defining

terms Immediately what popped into my head was a Sermon

by our dear friend one of the most powerful speakers alive today Vodie Balcom.

He had a sermon.

Where throughout his message numerous times he kept quoting

from Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bride.

You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it means and he was referring to social justice primarily in that message,

but Anyway, we're going to be going to our first break right now.

If you have a question, please send it in to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous.

If your question is a personal and private Question perhaps it's something

to do with your own church where you're a member and you obviously do not want to identify yourself.

In fact, I wouldn't want to identify you if you're going to be speaking about your own church or a specific church.

So obviously we'll grant your request to remain anonymous for personal and private reasons, but if it's a general question

Please just give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We are gonna be right back with Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison

and more of our discussion on Cultural denominational ism.

Don't go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

Just thinking about the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.

I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson Josh vice founder of g3 ministries and Darrell Bernard

Harrison and Virgil Walker co -hosts of the just thinking podcast.

To register visit g3 min org.

That's g3 min org and click on events.

Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, DC.

So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, DC to the g3

ministries regional conference.

Register now before they run out of seats at g3 min org.

That's g3 min org.

Stop by the iron sharpens iron radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

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I'm so thrilled that they have joined our advertising family we are now back

with Virgil Walker executive director of operations at g3 ministries and

Darrell Bernard Harrison.

Who is on staff with grace to you, and he just got a promotion, and I can't remember what the exact title is

but it is a Substantial promotion and they are both authors and co -hosts

of the just thinking podcast we are addressing the theme Cultural denominational ism

what happens when a denomination goes wrong and Virgil.

Exactly, what are you referring to specifically?

I'm sure that they are.

There are quite a number of ways denominations go wrong typically

historically.

That meant that they became more and more liberal leaning or leftist more compromising

more Interested in appealing to the notions and tastes and

desires and appetites of the lost world.

But exactly what are you referring to here Virgil?

Yeah, well we really kind of took a 50 ,000 foot view before we dowed

into.

The particular issues I think for the most part those who have followed us on just thinking

for quite some time.

Recognize that one of the two areas that we really feel.

Have been the catalyst to to capitulation on the part of many local churches

as well as denominations.

Have been the issues of pragmatism.

The idea that if it works, it's true if it works, it's right.

They've embraced that idea and if in an effort to win the culture alongside

that is the issue of Sentimentalism.

And and with that comes a whole host of problems one with with sentimentalism.

That's that's the idea that whoever has the the saddest story wins whoever can appeal

to one's emotions wins so when when you're motivated by by the

elevation of one's feelings.

Alongside whatever works.

That's what's true.

And right you've got a recipe for disaster.

I actually started out the our time together on the

on the podcast.

Really walking us through the another ism that is infected culture, which is

feminism.

And again with with feminism comes both both of the two ideas.

That I mentioned the the pragmatic approach to life as well as the sentimentalism.

And so we really like I said backed up rather than dialing in and drilling down.

We had the time and so because we weren't concerned about time clocks.

We really kind of took a step back and said what what has been the issues that have permeated culture?

To such a degree that we're seeing it bleed into and infect local churches.

And and when we see it happening in local churches.

Denominations are quick to follow.

We talked about earlier on on the during this interview Darrell alluded to the fact that you

know, our goal was not to simply Highlight a denomination, but I started out

by saying while while my goal is not to highlight a denomination.

My experience is within the Southern Baptist Convention.

More than a decade and so my thought was you know, there will be examples that I will use.

That will that will highlight from the Southern Baptist Convention some of the issues that are

related now.

We didn't spend the entire time.

You know tearing apart Southern Baptist.

We want to praise those things which are good, but we also want to want to highlight

areas that have veered away from or walked away from biblical

orthodoxy.

Especially as it pertains to to worship.

Where we're looking at at the normative principle.

Well, if the Bible doesn't say we can't do it then we can.

We you know.

We talked about issues of music and as it relates to worship and the expression of the word

and and what that's like.

You know anytime you you want to appeal to culture in an effort to win the culture.

You're actually in a poor position from a scriptural standpoint because that we recognize that that the world is lost.

That the world does not know God does not love God.

So if we're trying to win them over in some way shape or form.

We're having to appeal to something other than the gospel.

Something other than scripture and those those things that we're usually appealing to are things that are

a embraced in the culture and B that are completely opposed to a biblical

worldview and.

Martin Luther Who had a normative principle approach to worship

in the 16th century never would have dreamed?

Where that System would have taken the church.

I mean Obviously, he he would never I'm assuming never have dreamed the

outlandish and even blasphemous things That are occurring in worship services, and I have used that

word tongue -in -cheek worship around the world that

people are obviously ministers and congregations and denominations are.

Specifically as I even said earlier as a description, they're trying to appeal to the

appetites of the lost.

They.

Are there.

I think it was.

Dr. James White.

In fact, I know it was.

Who's going to be speaking at your conference And I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the written quote in front of me.

But he has said if you're trying to attract sheep

with goat food You're only going to attract goats and

people seem to be satisfied Just because their numbers are growing with having

goats and wolves fill the pews or folding chairs in Their their

buildings.

This is quite a tragedy.

Is it not Darrell?

Yeah, it is a tragedy on many levels and you know, what's interesting about what you just said in referencing

Martin Luther Chris is that the reason Martin Luther would never have dreamed that.

At least with respect to the the kind of denominationalism that we're talking about right now.

The reason he would never have dreamed that is Because Martin Luther believed in the sufficiency of Scripture.

It's that simple.

It's just that so right, you know again just it ties back into the the

conference that We've mentioned a few times now that's upcoming in Washington DC

in the middle of September which I'm just thinking about the Bible Conference and the theme being

the sufficiency of Scripture you have today.

Denomination did not Protestant denominations and we point this out and we go into a

greater detail On what I'm about to say in the episode the Just Thinking podcast

episode on cultural denominationalism, but you have denominations today and churches that that

that comprise those denominations Who don't believe the Bible?

They don't believe the gospel, you know.

When you mentioned Martin Luther, I immediately Thought of this quote from him or to

say Christ Can and does save you he comes to you by his all -sufficient

Word.

If you have the scriptures you have heaven itself.

If you have the scriptures you have every blessing that God desires to give your body and soul.

Luther was convinced of the Sufficiency of Scripture, but you have

denominations now who are not.

It's really that simple so as Virgil allude to earlier when you don't believe that Scripture is

sufficient.

When you don't believe first Peter 1 Which says that the believer has

everything he or she needs in Christ for life and godliness.

When you don't believe that Then your only Default is to become a

pragmatic world reflecting Entity or

organization you may be something else, but you're definitely not a denomination anymore.

Be and we are virtually arguing the episode talking about goats

and sheep.

Goats aren't attracted to the church.

So why are you trying the goats by nature are not attracted to the church?

They're not attracted to the gospel.

So why are you trying to attract?

A People who by nature want nothing to do with you you

you as a believer me Virgil Chris, none of us were attracted to Christ.

God drew us God drew us to him.

That's John 644.

We're not we want to track it to Christ me we it's like I think it was uh, it

was a JC Rao who said that When God by his spirit

comes into our hearts he finds no restful landing place.

We we are enemies.

We we and we're going to talk about this in Pennsylvania.

We had we are conceived with an innate

Enmity Towards God so this very idea that the church can attract

the world is just fallacious on its face.

Amen, and we have to go to our midway break right now.

If anybody would like to send in a question we do have several people waiting to have their questions asked

and answered by Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison, but if you want to Get in line send in your email

to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

See HR is a RNZ and a gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Also, I want to remind you please be patient.

This is the midway break, which is the longer break in the middle of the show because grace life radio 90

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Don't go away we right back with Virgil Walker and Daryl Bernard Harrison on cultural

Denominationalism.

What happens when a denomination goes wrong right after these messages?

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our topic today cultural denominational is and

Darrell one of the things now I have to be very careful because some of my dearest

friends are Presbyterian and I interview Presbyterians

frequently on this program one of my most valuable Advertisers is

a Presbyterian Church Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

They Spend probably just as much as anybody if not more in

advertising on this program.

But I have to say that some Presbyterians seem to think

that they have an advantage over Independent and one of end autonomous

Baptist churches or Bible churches.

Because of their denominational hierarchical structure and because of their

synods and presbyteries they think that that somehow is going to prevent a

Sliding into apostasy, but we have seen denominations over the

centuries that began Nearly as pristine as you possibly can be on this planet

and the sin -cursed world and yet They've wind up totally apostate.

So this is not an argument of Safety that can

be relied upon as it Darrell.

Yeah, no, no, it's not an argument that can be relied upon in terms of safety.

Chris because See, here's the thing if history teaches us anything.

It's not I'm sure whether you're Presbyterian Methodist Lutheran doesn't matter.

What your denominational affiliation is it's not your sentence it's not your creeds.

It's not your credos that it keeps your denomination as you said pristine.

That's not what keeps your denomination safe.

What keeps your denomination safe is the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the individuals

who comprise that?

Denomination to believe the gospel and to live by the gospel.

That's what keeps your denomination say.

You know nothing nothing structurally or organizationally or

Administratively keeps a denomination saying Why do you think they go

astray because every denomination is comprised of sinners?

That's what happens.

So a denomination for any denomination to boast That their hierarchical structure or how their way the

way that they're organized is inherently Affectual

in preventing Denominational drift Into the

world they're fooling themselves.

They're fooling themselves.

The the the only way to prevent that is at the individual heart level.

So it's not so much being a Presbyterian or a Methodist or a Southern Baptist.

It's not so much that at all.

Because none of that matters if that Presbyterian in the at the individual level if

that Methodist is if that Lutheran if that Southern Baptist is

not in the Word of God Studying the Word of God Confessing and repenting of sin if they're

if they have no prayer life if they're living one way Monday through

Saturday and another way on Sunday.

Your denomination is in as much trouble of crumbling as some denominations have

been Historically, so know that that that that doesn't portend safety at all.

Not at all.

Amen, and in fact Virgil wouldn't you agree that although?

Creeds and confessions are very important and valuable

guardrails for a church to maintain a

Biblical orthodoxy to maintain a harmony With the church of the

past as well as the president a present.

I should say There are churches over these centuries that have

maintained on paper creeds and confessions and they were really

Not adhered to.

They were viewed as relics of the past and it was almost a sentimental thing that That

gave them reason to continue to on paper Saying which was

really in dishonesty that they were adhering to these creeds.

A prime example is the Episcopal Church USA.

They went into apostasy now.

I'm gonna make sure not broad -brushing here Not every congregation in the Episcopal Church

USA or not every minister in that denomination is apostate.

But they began the slide as a denomination into apostasy years before they

stopped claiming to adhere to the 39 articles of religion, which are which is an

excellent confession, but so isn't even

the adherence of a confession it has to be genuinely observed

and maintained and of course church discipline.

The the elders and the overseers over the flock have to see if Their members are truly

regenerate and not just giving lip service to any kind of a creed or even the Bible itself.

If they're just giving it lip service.

Am I right Virgil?

No, I think all of what you said is spot -on and we know historically speaking that most

creeds were put together as the result of Someone going off into a heterodox.

Heterodoxy and so that the idea there was.

But let's let's line out what we believe and why we believe it in an effort to to combat

you know what we're seeing happening and some other denomination and and and.

Or church and what what normally was taking place?

Even in those instances where people who were who were leaving the faith or or veering

from orthodoxy.

They had their creed as well.

They had their ideas about what what they believed and how they believed it.

But again, if there's a multi -layered approach.

That takes place to keep that those kinds of things from happening.

One is a focus on the Word of God.

Two is the preaching of that word.

As as men and women gather on the Lord's Day.

Three a focus on Discipleship and and and and you mentioned it when you were

talking earlier about the idea that churches would indeed practice Church

discipline according to the Word of God.

So those those kinds of things are helpful guardrails.

Against the sinful drift that is that is a part of of the natural heart

of mankind.

Even with those things in place.

It's difficult.

Yeah, anytime you go back and do and go back and look at church history.

It's it should be obvious to it to the to the casual reader.

It it is only the hand of God that kept us attached to the Word of

God.

It is only the the Spirit of God.

Leading men's hearts by the truth according to his word.

That that help us to know what what the Bible says today.

What what the Bible means by what it says today those kinds of things are are definitely the case.

I think about a common example.

In fact, we we talked about it in this particular episode.

When we talked about the Baptist faith and message.

That's a that's a creed whether whether Baptists believe it to be or not.

It is at least a statement of faith that that those who who are Southern Baptists hold to

yet within the denomination because there's no practice of Church discipline because there's a there's a

leaning into pragmatism and into sentimentalism at this particular convention you had

Credentials committee who was dealing who were dealing with the issues of a particular church.

Rick Warren's Church who Saddleback Church?

Where they had they had put three women in the role of elder right in

the role of Pastor and and so, you know, they have a statement of faith.

They understand what that what that says and there was absolute confusion in the Convention

regarding what should be done about that was an act of defiance, wasn't it?

Absolutely was absolutely was.

And so what ultimately happened?

Yeah, well, I will the the credentials committee, you know, they they took a year.

They took an entire year to review the situation only to come to this convention.

And report back that they needed another year to determine what the Baptist

faith and message actually said.

When when scripture is absolutely clear on this issue the the what they squabbled

about was whether or not the office of a pastor can be separated from the

gifting of a pastor.

The other the other issue is whether the function of a pastor is connected to the title of a pastor.

And what we're witnessing in all of that is is a linguistic

deconstruction of Words of ideas, it's the same thing that we see culture do regarding the word

marriage.

Marriage has historically meant one particular thing but what what has happened in culture is the deconstruction

of the word so that it can mean something that it never was intended to mean so that we can then say that two Men

can be quote -unquote married or or in and I mean even even nowaday with with men being able to be

pregnant.

We've so we so deconstructed ideas.

Words no longer have meaning and what we're seeing happen in culture is having its its insidious

effect In the church, and so that's that's what that's what we're seeing.

We have a question and I'll let.

Darrell start to give the answer and if Virgil wants to give any addition to the

answer, that's fine.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

Who wants to know.

What are you observing to be the most common reasons why?

Conservative.

Denominations that have perhaps even for centuries been stalwarts for

biblical truth.

Have in recent years begun the downslide into going wrong.

Yeah, I'll first of all, thank the Listener for that question.

I appreciate it's a very good question and I'll answer that Immediately, I think it's because they're so hooked on

the conservatism and not the gospel.

They're not they've been drawn in by the ism.

There's another ism for you.

Chris.

We're talking about cultural denominational ism.

And now we're talking about conservative ism.

And that's what happens when you're drawn when you're attracted to or when you become Shall we

say enamored with What your denomination can do for

you in terms of maybe politically.

Maybe maybe your denomination takes a particular Sociocultural stance

or position then you you end up Reprioritizing the things that have

most value to you.

Um, and that's what happens listen, uh, I think we need to to acknowledge something here and I think the questioner

brings up Uh something that I think we need to talk about is that Uh, and

that reality is that conservative so -called conservative christians are not immune To

going astray.

They're not immune at all conservative denominations are not immune to going astray because

when when when you see Something that glitters More than the gospel does.

And that can happen over time that can happen over time even for conservative denominations.

And I think Uh again to point out the southern baptist convention.

Listen, I was a member of a southern baptist church for over 20 years I was a member of dr. Charles stanley's church

Uh in atlanta my hometown for 23 years.

Wow.

So when you get when you when you get the southern baptist convention that has gotten so big So

influential so fat even so fat on itself to where

Uh, it can boast of being the largest protestant denomination in america.

And you start boasting and you start popping your collar a little bit and you start uh, uh

puffing up about your resume.

Then it is it's easy even for conservatives To lose their way i'm not talking about

they lose their salvation.

So I don't I don't want anybody To assume that that's what I mean.

What i'm saying is When when when when you when you let the worldly glitter the

worldly bling the the the and what I mean by bling, I mean the success of your

denomination in worldly terms In um in in administrative terms, you got the numbers

you got the money.

You're you've got the missionaries.

Everything looks good on paper.

And you prioritize those things over what your fundamental?

Unchanging unalterable charter is which is to preach the gospel for the salvation of lost

sinners.

Then yeah, even your conservative denomination can it can be at risk.

Yeah, virgil, uh.

One of the immediate ways because some of our listeners might be scratching their heads saying well, how can conservatism lead to error?

Well immediately I can think of something that i've been saying for years That there

are some conservative individuals who profess to be christians and

pastors and congregations and denominations who in their

Earnest desire to boldly proclaim.

And rightfully so I want to make this clear rightfully proclaim That abortion is

murder.

Rightfully proclaim That two men and two women cannot be married and any

claim that they're married Is a damnable fiction.

And I could go on and on with things that conservatives unite on but on but tragically.

There are some who View those things those issues in a way

that eclipses the gospel.

That they actually start viewing Those that deny the gospel but agree with

them on an opposition to abortion and homosexuality.

They start viewing these people as brothers in christ.

They start viewing mormons and roman catholics and so on.

As.

People who are safe and are really in no danger of damnation

because of the fact that they unite on these.

These conservative issues which obviously are far beyond conservative issues.

These are biblical issues.

Uh, but but the virgil you want to comment on that?

No.

Yeah, I I agree.

There's a you know when you think about issues like that when you think about

um ideas like that conservatism.

Um, you know denominational ism when you think about these these kinds of ideas they they are

they're susceptible.

Uh.

Denominations, uh conservatives.

Those ideas are susceptible uh to I to to to ideology, uh, we I

mean to to to being an idol, um, you know.

You you can make anything into uh an idol.

I think about the fact that often when we when we take The idea of conservatism and simply

attach it to moral outcome.

Uh, what you have there is just moral therapeutic deism.

Um, you you don't really have the the essence of of the gospel.

What's what's what's different about christianity is is the heart change that happens as a

result of our connection to christ.

Uh, he awakens our heart.

Uh, we we are now sensitive to him.

Uh, we come to a saving knowledge of christ through repentance and faith.

Uh, and it's and it's because of the working on the inside of our heart that we begin to see our passions.

Uh in inflamed about issues, uh that that that god is offended by

like abortion.

Uh, that's how that is supposed to work.

What often happens, uh in conservative circles with conservatism.

Is it's it's the opposite people recognize the the maybe the strength of an

argument about About pro -life or the or the strength of the idea around marriage.

Uh, everyone understands what marriage is because all of us are image bearers of god and and he stamped

Those ideas on the inside of our heart.

So it's it's not a shock or surprise that that the greatest strength that the greatest

Connection to truth comes from those ideas.

People get excited about that.

Maybe they feel more confident about that.

And then when they're around others who feel the same way, uh, they're motivated by that but yet their

ideas are devoid Of the gospel they're they're.

You know all of what they're doing to see change affected in culture.

Has nothing to do with lives transformed by the message of the gospel.

Uh, that's why you find people who are in that framework who are connecting themselves to mormons or people in

that framework who are connecting themselves to Catholics.

Why.

Because their focus is not the gospel's transformative power on the heart.

Uh and seeing change in culture their idea is i'll i'll change the culture.

Uh, and and really it stops there.

It really ends there more times than not.

Yeah, and I want to also clarify that I believe it's the duty of every christian to speak out

passionately against infanticide aka abortion and speak out

against the unnatural abomination of sodomy.

And homosexual so -called marriage and all of those things.

But and chris chris, can I say one thing sure on that?

Quick.

I I concur with you brother 100 but just going back to the the listener's question

I think uh a fault of conservatism Within evangelicalism.

Is that we've we've been content to just speak out on those issues when you speak out on those issues

apart from a gospel context.

All that is is protest.

Amen.

All that all that is is speaking into a megaphone.

You're you're not reaching the heart of the person at all.

We have to be able to say we have to be we have to know the gospel so well.

Because you said it it's the duty of every christian is the obligation of every christian and that is a divine mandate.

It's not a political mandate.

It's not a social mandate.

It's not a cultural mandate.

We are mandated by christ himself to go into all the world and make disciples.

And it's not enough and I think this is where conservatives Have been a little bit short -sighted.

Is that it's not enough to speak out against something unless you pair that speaking out with a

gospel message that will transform the heart of that individual so that they

Are regenerated in their heart to think differently about the murder of an unborn child.

They think differently about infanticide.

They think differently about adultery.

They think differently about stealing.

They think differently about work and labor.

They think differently about eternity.

So we can't separate the two and I think we've been doing that for far too long.

Which again, I think is a is a fault line of conservatism within

evangelicalism and we really need to Bring that to the floor and talk more about that.

Yeah, in fact since you mentioned charles stanley and the fact that you were a member of the church

where he pastors for over 20 years Don't you agree that one of the

primary reasons you have people and churches identifying

themselves as conservative christians going astray and filling

their Buildings with false professors with wolves in sheep's clothing

is because of Seriously flawed if not heretical theology.

Charles stanley Although he may be outwardly conservative in many

ways He is emphatic.

In fact even wrote a book on eternal security where he believes that repentance

in a transformed life Are not necessary signs from a truly born again individual.

And the irony is any kind of conservative position that you may have on abortion and homosexuality.

If you're teaching people that you can unrepentantly Murder your children and unrepentantly

Continue on in your life as a homosexual That is a false teaching that has

extreme Uh danger with eternal consequences.

Am I right not darryl?

Yeah, you're absolutely right chris, I mean the entire epistle of first john speaks to that.

The entire epistle of first john is a treatise against Uh what someone might call?

Uh carnal.

Uh christianity.

The entire epistle of first john calls us To examine ourselves to make

sure That we are truly Regenerate.

First the epistle of first john has verse after verse after verse Admonishing us

that you cannot Walk on both sides of the track.

You can't walk.

You can't call you cannot profess to be a christian.

You cannot profess to know christ salvificly And then

live a habitual life of unrepentant sin.

You cannot That that is bastardizing god's grace.

To to to to to to consider that you can do that is is

adulterating the grace Of god to so take advantage of it that you think you can live

in unrepentant sin and at the same time Call yourself a believer in jesus christ.

If anyone listening to me right now thinks that they can live that kind of life I challenge them to go study the

epistle of first john.

Amen.

And virgil.

Uh before we go to our next break, I want you to perhaps address something that was

prominent.

In.

Your own just thinking podcast about the cultural denominationalism theme.

What happens when a denomination goes wrong.

Some things that we haven't addressed yet?

I want to make sure that we include the most important things that you and daryl Uh discussed in that

message or in that interview.

Or that broadcast if you could.

Uh, what are some of the things that we may not have addressed yet?

Yeah, no, I mean pretty much covering the ground.

We really unpacked, you know, we we.

First of all daryl just really beautifully unpacked.

Why this is important?

And why this is a pressing issue?

Why we would take the time to even cover?

Uh this ground and and I think I think we you know, it begins with the idea that that.

Every folks who start denominations people who come together to start a denomination, uh are indeed

well -meaning.

They're they're they're indeed have a desire to to do the right thing to to say the right thing to proclaim the right

thing.

Uh, but what you begin to see often when when these organizations Uh begin to become larger,

uh that they they begin to lose their way.

So daryl kind of took the took took a big view an overview of that delved down scripturally.

Uh, and then and then and this is kind of our natural flow.

Uh daryl will make the case biblically theologically historically

systematically.

And then I circle back with a lot of the a lot of the practical application.

What does this look like in the day -to -day?

Because one we want people to be armed with what the word of god says about the issue.

Not what daryl says not what birgel says not what we think is right or even or even a quote that we may deliver.

Uh, what we want what we want them to know is before we even get started with with something

practical and with with with specifics.

That we've laid a good foundation biblically and that they've got that to take with them not simply for the

examples.

We're going to provide.

But for every situation that they're going to come into contact with as they are involved in their, you know in their

area of denomination.

Um, and so from that point, uh, we then No did a deep dive and began using

specific examples.

And I kind of shared one of them with you the the example with with women with women pastors.

Uh that that people are engaging in and and are we're seeing a proliferation Of that more

and more in different denominations.

Uh, we then followed that with the issue of of worship.

Uh that word that that worship is not just what the singing parts.

But that worship is the whole of the service.

Uh with the high point of it being the being being the you know, the word of god that's that's preached.

Uh, so we walk through even the even the preaching of the word and how that's different and sound sounds different

today.

And has been has been morphed today has been minimized today.

So that even the sheep who are there are are malnourished are malnourished.

Not getting what they need to be able to stand boldly With with regard to god's word.

So we we talked about all of those issues unpack them with with what?

Three, uh, darryl said it early what three hours and 13 minutes of content?

I promise you there's not an area that we didn't cover and and and at least try to do so very thoroughly

and biblically i'm sure.

Given another given another pass darryl and I could probably come up with another two hours worth of content on this

particular issue.

As it relates to specific examples, but I think that that's a that's a good overview of what we covered.

Great.

Well, i'm going to read to you another listener question before we go to the final break and the

final break will be a lot shorter than the other breaks uh, but i'll read this

question from an anonymous listener now.

And you could answer it when we come back both of you.

The anonymous questioner says That I really

love The teaching and preaching and writing of dr Tom askew who I know is a

mutual friend of all three of you.

I know that the founders ministries has even published books by your guests today.

But I was wondering if you believe That christians should really start leaving

the southern baptist convention because they see it as being.

An.

Unchangeable and irreversible situation with the level of dangerous

teaching and even on some cases apostasy.

And we'll have you answer that when we come back.

And if anybody else has a question, please send it in rather quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

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We're now back with virgil walker and daryl bernard harrison.

Let's start with Daryl since you have been a member of a southern

baptist church as you have already indicated.

You're currently a member of grace community church of sun valley california if i'm not mistaken where john macarthur is

the pastor.

But uh.

Should anybody stay in that denomination.

And I understand that our anonymous Listener brought up our dear friend. Dr. Tom askew who is

So faithful to the scriptures and biblically solid and a true shepherd because he is seeking to

Remain there to bring about transformation by god's grace and mercy.

But uh, what is your opinion on this.

Is this just an individual thing.

And of course there's also two two Issues here because our our listener

didn't specify.

There are congregation members and there are pastors who have to make that decision.

Right.

Yeah, and uh, thanks for pointing out that distinction there at the end of that comment

chris.

Uh, yeah, and I want to say in responding to the question, I just want to reiterate that my response is as an

individual.

All right.

Uh, I do not although virginally.

I both have a dear uh.

Personal and professional relationship with dr. Tom Askall, uh who has a founders

ministries?

Um, uh for uh for for purposes of uh, Not just only the

questioner, but your listeners.

We want to make sure that they understand that founders ministries, which is uh, the ministry that dr. Askall heads up

Is a pulp.

It's a publisher of the trilogy of books that virginal and I Have authored, uh, so

founders press is the publisher of our first book just thinking about the state.

They will be the publisher of our second book which is in the editorial process.

Not right now just thinking about ethnicity.

And our third book is going to be titled just thinking about The church so we have both a personal

and professional relationship with dr Askall as well as founders ministries now that said

my answer to the uh Listener's question is no, you should not stand that

denomination um The the the southern baptist convention and again,

I have to say this again chris.

What I am saying is daryl harris's opinion only.

I don't speak for virgil.

I don't represent virgil.

I don't represent Uh founders ministries.

I don't represent uh John, mcarthur or grace community church.

Grace community church is non -denominational.

Um, this is my own personal opinion with respect to the the question that your listener.

Posed.

Uh, so in my opinion, no, you should not stand the southern baptist convention what I what I have witnessed

Over the past, uh, six to seven years not to mention what we witnessed Recently here

in anaheim california a couple months ago where the annual southern baptist convention was held

was the absolute embarrassing and disgusting even

uh machinations and choreographed um

Lying deception.

Manipulation the absolute coordinated Orchestration

of keeping certain people's voices Hushed and muffled while

amplifying the voices of other individuals.

And this all happened only at that convention over two to three days.

I'm not talking about what has transpired within the sbc over the past several years that led up to what

has recently happened so.

The sbc is corrupt.

Is and when I say that I mean it's leadership.

It's corrupt.

It's corrupt.

So what I would encourage and this is unsolicited.

Okay.

I know this is not part of your listeners question but what I would suggest

Is that if you whether you're a pastor or a congregant in a southern baptist church Remind

yourself of this.

That that church belongs to christ.

That church doesn't belong to your denomination.

You are not obligated To a degree of loyalty to that denomination if that

denomination has betrayed The lord of that denomination and that's what's happened within the sbc.

So you need to remind yourself whose church that belongs who that church belongs to.

That belongs that church belongs to the lord.

Jesus christ who founded the church.

To begin with now i'll stop there and i'll go ahead and hand it over the verse.

Virgil.

Yeah, I I concur wholeheartedly with everything.

Daryl just said I I I think I think it's an absolute waste of time uh to try to reform Uh

an organization a as large as the sbc who who has no real desire to reform

Uh, their their desires to continue in the same direction that they're that they're going in.

Uh, tom, our dear friend ran ran for the presidency of the convention, uh on on a

platform Uh with regard to seeing reform take place Uh seeing things righted,

uh, and and you know, the election was a was a rejection of that uh at the end of the day, uh.

The the great commission that christ gives the church, uh,.

To go out, uh and to preach the gospel and seeing others come to salvation in christ

uh, that has nothing to do with seeing a a Denomination saved or a

denomination brought back from the brink Uh, it has everything to do with going out and preaching the gospel that

that gospel truth.

And so energies and efforts spent in a direction to try to reform Uh a

denomination, uh, and what I mean by that to to the point that daryl made, uh is the organizational

structure Uh that has no desire to see itself reform.

Uh, it's time to part ways Uh, these churches are all autonomous churches Uh who who can

you know go go in a different direction, uh link up with those who have like mind and heart

Uh and see the rest of their days spent in a fruitful endeavor Uh as they go out preach the

gospel and see others come to it to a saving knowledge of jesus christ.

Amen.

Well before we run out of time, I want to make sure that I repeat the very important websites.

Connected with my two guests today.

First high point baptist church in larksville, pennsylvania Where both virgil and

daryl will be speaking august 20th and 21st.

At the just thinking podcast conference that website is highpointbaptist .com

highpointbaptist .com.

And also the website for g3 ministries where you can find out more about the

g3 conference Which is going to be coming up in september september

15th through the 17th in washington dc.

This is the g3 regional conference.

Go to g3min .org g3min .org.

For grace to you the media ministry Of john mccarthur where dell bernard

harrison serves on the staff go to gty .org Gty .org.

And don't forget about the just thinking podcast whose website is just thinking .me.

Just thinking .me.

I want to thank the both of you for doing such an extraordinary job as you always do.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far far greater savior.

Than you are a sinner.