August 11, 2022 Show with Virgil Walker & Darrell Bernard Harrison on “When Denominations Go Wrong”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of August 2022.

I'm thrilled to have two of my very favorite guests return to the program today, and they are none other than the co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast, Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison. Virgil Walker is also an author and the executive director of operations at G3 Ministries, and let me welcome you to the program first,

Virgil. Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to have you on the program. Why don't you tell our listeners about G3 Ministries?

Yeah, G3 Ministries. I was looking at a comment the other day.

Folks are trying to figure out what G3 stands for, and so it stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

It is a conference -based ministry that has really switched its focus, delivering fantastic conferences, but in addition to that, producing a lot of fantastic content for churches, for church pastors, church leaders, folks in the pew.

Our desire in every way is to make sure that folks are receiving just sound, biblical books, resources, you name it, curricula, in an effort to make sure that they're properly educated and equipped for the work of ministry.

So that's what G3 is about. We push forward all of that content, both on our websites as well as on our app.

You can check us out at g3men .org. Praise God. And now we also have joining us

Darrell Bernard Harrison, and he is an author and dean of social media at Grace To You, which is the media ministry of Dr.

John MacArthur. And it's great to have you back as well, Darrell. Hey, Chris, how are you doing, my friend?

Thanks for having me back. I need to mention one thing, Chris, because it's been a minute since I've been on your program, and since then

God has shown me incredible grace, speaking of Grace To You, and that I've gotten a promotion recently to a new role.

So I'm no longer dean of social media. I'm now the director of digital platforms, which still includes social media as one of my responsibilities.

But, yeah, now my new title is director of digital platforms for Grace To You.

But that notwithstanding, it's good to be back with you, my friend. Always good to be back with my guy.

Amen. And if anybody wants more information about Grace To You, the media ministry of world -renowned evangelist, author, and pastor

John MacArthur, go to gty .org, gty .org.

And why don't you tell us? We'll start with Virgil, since Darrell spoke last. Virgil, why don't you tell us about the

Just Thinking podcast that you and Darrell co -host? Well, I mean, we'll probably both jump into this piece right here.

Just Thinking is really the brainchild of Darrell. Based off of his blog, we connected about coming up.

We'll be closing in on five years here in December where we've gotten together and really amplified all of the work that Darrell put in on the blog, really taking the cultural issues, pushing them through the lens of a biblical worldview, and really unpacking them in kind of an expository way.

I mean, it's more of an expository podcast. We take our time unpacking issues and just making sure that people are incredibly equipped to deal with issues of the day.

I think probably for the most part folks know us for the CRT -related issues that we engage in as well as anything

Black Lives Matter, but that's not all that we do. We run the gamut of a lot of different areas.

I love what Darrell says when he says that we are theologians, and as a result of that we really try to cover the gamut.

In fact, I know that—I don't want to toss anything too early. Darrell, I'll let Darrell do that, but we're looking at some topics that aren't in the vein of necessarily the whole social justice component.

It really opens the door for other issues that need to be addressed. Darrell, I know that, as Virgil just indicated, this podcast came out of a blog that you were operating solo at one point for quite a while.

In fact, that's when I first learned of you, and Dr. Tom Askell of Founders Ministries told me, you've got to get

Darrell Bernard Harrison on your program. He has this incredible blog called Just Thinking, and that's when we first made contact.

But it was our mutual friend Dwayne Atkinson of The Bar, and I don't mean a place where you have cocktails.

That stands for biblical and reformed. Many people jump to the conclusion immediately that it stands for black and reformed, since Dwayne is black, but it is not.

It's biblical and reformed. And he was the one that really enthusiastically suggested that you guys unite for a blog,

I mean for a podcast, and you initially were adamantly opposed to the idea.

Am I right? That's a true story, Chris. As a matter of fact, Virgil and Dwayne approached me individually about the idea of joining

Virgil on a podcast that Dwayne would support. And I turned them both down, and the reason

I did is because I didn't see myself as being a particularly gifted speaker.

I didn't think that my gifts were in the area of speaking orally into a microphone on a podcast platform.

As Virgil alluded to earlier, I'd been doing my blog at Just Thinking for myself for six or seven years.

By the time God brought me across the path of Virgil and Dwayne, I was strongly dogmatic that my gift was writing.

My area of skill was in putting my fingers to a keyboard and typing words out.

I wasn't gifted. At least I didn't see myself that way as being gifted to articulate my thoughts through a microphone.

So that was the rationale behind me turning that idea down. But God, as he so often demonstrates in our lives, had completely different plans for me.

And as Virgil alluded to earlier, here we are almost five years later with the

Just Thinking podcast, having recently surpassed 5 .1 million plays of our episodes.

It's just incredible. Wow. And if anybody wants to find out more about the Just Thinking podcast, go to justthinking .me.

That's justthinking .me. And all three of us have to make a note.

The next time we do this, which I hope is soon, we've got to get Dwayne Atkinson on our program with us on the interview.

Have him join us. Yeah, Dwayne would be an incredible addition to this conversation because, again,

Virgil and I refer to Dwayne as the hardest working man in podcast land. I mean, Dwayne, under his biblical and reformed network, manages numerous podcasts.

And so the Just Thinking podcast is not the only podcast that falls under that network. He has his own podcast that he hosts where he brings guests on that's in an interview format.

But then he's got numerous other podcasts. And whenever anyone reaches out to Virgil or me wanting counsel, advice, guidance on whether or not to start a podcast, what contributes to the success of a podcast, without hesitation,

Virgil and I refer those folks to Dwayne. He's an incredibly talented individual. God's gifted him in many, many ways.

And he's been an incredible partner and friend and brother for Virgil and me.

And in fact, I'm going to use this opportunity to brag about my program. Dwayne Atkinson has been a listener in the

Iron Chirp and Zion Radio audience for a very long time, going back to 2005 when we first launched the show.

And he told me when I first met him. In fact, I was walking past his booth at one of the

G3 conferences a number of years ago. And he called out to me and he told me that I was a primary inspiration to him entering into the podcast field.

So I was enormously humbled and blessed and honored with the privilege of hearing that.

That was great for him to share that with me. And also...

I was just going to say, Chris, that's really high praise coming from a guy like Dwayne. Yes, it is. Yes. And if anybody wants more information on The Bar Podcast Network, go to thebarpodcast .com,

thebarpodcast .com. And I believe

I got the right website for that. Yes, I do. I was starting to get nervous that I was indeed promoting the website of a tavern.

But now I see Dwayne's picture, so I breathe a sigh of relief.

Well, before we go into our theme, there are two major events that you two are going to be speaking at.

And I am, God willing, going to be at both of them. The first is coming up very soon.

It's going to be held August 20th and the 21st, which is a

Saturday and Sunday, in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and specifically at High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania.

And it is actually titled the Just Thinking Podcast Conference. Virgil, since Daryl spoke last, why don't you tell us about this conference?

We were excited to get the call from the folks there who wanted us to come up.

And the folks in High Point reached out. Greg Houser, his team there were wanting us to come up and just talk about issues related to social justice.

They are, especially in the area of education in the great state of Pennsylvania, dealing with so many issues related to the critical race theory being taught in schools.

Of course, they're not calling it that anymore. A lot of the church members dealing with diversity, inclusion, and equity, diversity, equity, and inclusion, just all of those related issues that everybody is dealing with.

The issue of social justice, folks thought, you know, this is kind of a flash in the pan. Maybe this will be something that shows its head, rears its head, and goes back into hiding, and it's no more.

But the reality is, unfortunately, it's permeated every facet of culture, every area from economics to politics.

Any area that you can think of, education, it's a part of.

And so as believers in Christ and God's grace, they're wanting to – the folks at High Point are wanting to ensure that their people have their arms around this and are able to address it from a biblical worldview.

And so I reached out and asked for Daryl and me to come, and I'm excited about the opportunity.

It'll be a great chance to really educate and equip some folks. Yes, and Daryl, are there any specific headings that you're aware of yet on topics that you and Virgil will be speaking on at this event?

Yeah, there are. And matter of fact, if folks want more information about more specifics around the actual schedule, that they can just go to the

High Point Baptist Church website and check that out. But yes, I'm going to be speaking on the interconnectedness of critical race theory and Marxism.

And then Virgil's going to be speaking on how critical race theory entered the culture. And what's really cool about how

Virgil and I sort of play off one another on this particular topic is that we never cross -pollinate one another.

And what I mean by that is that although we're going to be speaking under one cohesive thematic topic, the way our individual messages are distinct from one another is one of the attractions of a conference like this, because although we're going to be focusing on critical race theory, neither

Virgil nor I cross the line into each other's topics. So you're going to hear very distinctly and very uniquely perspectives and commentary through a biblical worldview on various aspects of critical race theory and some of the elements, some of the attributes that go into that overall theme.

So I'll be speaking on day one of the conference on the interconnectedness of critical race theory and Marxism.

Virgil will be speaking on how critical race theory entered the culture. And then there'll be a Q &A with Virgil, myself, and then

Pastor Matt, Pastor Matt Tarr, and Greg Hauser. And then to close out day one,

I'm going to be speaking on a message titled The Problem is Enmity, Not Ethnicity.

The Problem is Enmity, Not Ethnicity. And then on Sunday morning,

August 21st, Virgil is going to be preaching on a message titled One Body in Christ.

He's going to be preaching out of Ephesians chapter two, verses 11 through 22. So there you have that day and a half conference right there in a nutshell.

So I would strongly encourage folks who are able to get to that conference at High Point Baptist Church in Larkinville, do everything you can to make that.

Yes, I have had the great honor and privilege and joy to know and fellowship with and interview

Pastor Matt Tarr. And I urge anybody listening, if you want to hear any interviews

I've conducted with him, go to the Iron Sharpens Iron website, ironsharpensironradio .com,

ironsharpensironradio .com, and type in Tarr in the search engine T -A -R -R.

And you will hear the interviews I've had the privilege to conduct with Matt Tarr, a very bold voice for the truth of Christ's Word in a very compromising world.

And so I'm thrilled that the three of you have hooked up, and Greg as well,

Greg Hauser over there at High Point Baptist Church, to make this happen.

I will be manning, God willing, an exhibitor's booth there. And I'll also be manning an exhibitor's booth once again.

I believe this may be my seventh year at the G3 Conference. This is my first time at a regional conference.

All of my other appearances at the G3 were in Atlanta, but this time it's going to be in Washington, D .C.

And that will be here before you know it. In fact, next month. And Virgil, why don't you tell us about this exciting conference, the

G3 Regional Conference in Washington, D .C.,

titled Just Thinking About the Bible. Yes, we're extremely excited about this particular conference.

It's a little bit of a departure from what we've done previously. Normally we have the big national conference there in Atlanta, which we'll continue to do that.

It'll be every other year. In addition to the on -the -off years, our founding president,

Dr. Josh Bice, decided that he wanted to do smaller conferences, regional conferences, and would like to place those, position those in places where the gospel light was dim.

And so we kind of looked around the country trying to figure out where that would be, a good spot that would be.

And, you know, while I don't think any one of us could sit down and say, you know what, we mapped out this plan and had it hatched to be in D .C.,

I can't think of a better place or a better time, given the nature of all the things that are happening in culture, for us to be headed to that area of the country.

And so the other piece is I'm excited because we're going to be talking about the subject matter that matters most, and that's the

Bible. We teamed up with Just Thinking, Just Thinking and G3, teamed up to come together with the idea of making sure people understand the need for biblical sufficiency.

All the issues that we talked about before related to the culture wars, whether it's social justice or critical race theory, especially with regard to issues of race, issues of gender, all of those issues surround themselves with Genesis 3, with the idea of identity.

And for believers, we should be anchored in the truth of God's Word to the degree that we're not tossed to and fro by these foreign ideas that are kind of coming everywhere we turn.

We should be really anchored in the truth of God's Word, but what we're seeing is Christians are capitulating on these issues right and left.

So we thought it would be important for us to go back to the book, unpack the scripture, and really walk through what the

Bible has to say, not only about these issues, but to demonstrate its sufficiency in addressing particular issues.

So we've got Dr. Josh Bice, Dr. Stephen Lawson, Dr. James White, Darrell Harrison, of course, myself,

Dr. Scott Anuol. As well, we've added a couple of additional speakers to be talking with us more in either a breakout or a conversation panel.

We have Delano Squires and Jenna Ellis will be joining us as well.

And so we're looking forward to this. I will say I'm excited to see tickets are getting closer and closer to being sold out, and so I'm going to encourage folks to make their plans to be a part.

I just got an email about even the hotel situation is beginning to pack up.

We have some incredible discounted rates given the nature of the economy right now.

We wanted to make sure that this was something that was affordable to those who could participate. So we've got some great hotel rates as well.

You can go on our website at g3men .org and check out those, the hotels that are available.

Those are, again, filling up fast, and once they do, the other hotels around the area are not as – the amounts of money that you'll end up paying will be a little bit more.

So I would just encourage you, if you're thinking about participating, A, to register and do it quickly and then make sure you get your hotel arrangements made.

But, yeah, we're looking forward to this conference, September 15th through the 17th. Amen, and you have got to hook me up with Brother Squires and Sister Ellis so that I can interview both of them prior to the conference as well.

I would love to have them both. Absolutely, absolutely. I'll definitely reach out. And let me repeat the websites for both of these events.

For the event in Larksville, Pennsylvania on August 20th and 21st, which is a

Saturday and Sunday, at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, which is the

Just Thinking podcast conference, go to highpointbaptist .com, highpointbaptist .com,

and for the G3 Regional Conference in Washington, D .C.,

September 15th through the 17th, which is a

Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, you can go to g3men .org,

g3men .org, and you'll be hearing ads throughout the remainder of this broadcast promoting the

Just Thinking about the Bible conference in Washington, D .C. So I hope as many of you will attend, and please, as always, approach me and greet me at my

Iron Trip and Zion Radio exhibitors booth. That is always the highlight of my time at any of these conferences, is when

I not only introduce the Iron Trip and Zion Radio program to new listeners, but I meet many, many, many, many people who

I've never even heard from before, who love this program, who have listened to it for years sometimes, and some who have supported the program financially.

So it's always an absolute joy to be at these events, no matter where I am in the

United States. I always have people approach me at these exhibitors booths when I'm at conferences who tell me how much

Iron Trip and Zion Radio means to them, and that means the world to me. It motivates me to continue to press on.

Before we go to our first break, I just want the two of you to introduce—and we'll start with Daryl this time—introduce the topic cultural denominationalism, what happens when a denomination goes wrong, introduce that to our audience.

Daryl, I'm sure that the vast majority of people, when they hear that term, cultural denominationalism, it will sound very foreign to them.

It will be a new phrase to them, as it was to me. So why don't you define that, Daryl? Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to do that,

Chris. Folks who are longtime listeners to the Just Thinking podcast know—and Virgil kind of alluded to this earlier—the reason the

Just Thinking podcast is—well, one of the reasons, anyway, that Just Thinking is an expositional podcast is that we take our time to define terms.

Virgil and I are very dogmatic that unless and until you define terms, you really don't have anything to talk about, because it is the definition of terms that establishes the context of what you're talking about.

And context is incredibly important. As a matter of fact, I would argue that context is one of the aspects of dialogue and discussion that is so often lost.

People get hung up on words that they don't even know the meaning of, and then you end up talking past one another and not solving anything.

So when it comes to the title of our latest episode, Cultural Denominationalism, there's two things that I would like your listeners,

Chris, to understand. First of all, that suffix "-ism," in the second part of that title, the word denominationalism, the "-ism is incredibly important there, because we've had people approach us after listening to that episode thinking, well,

I thought this episode was about a denomination. I thought it was about cultural denominations.

Well, it's not, and it is at the same time. But what we're talking about with respect to cultural denominationalism, we are talking about the behavior or the character, the nature of once orthodox, biblically sound, biblically focused, gospel -centered, evangelistic -centered, evangelism -centered denominations that have sold themselves out to cultural applause, cultural acclaim, cultural trends, cultural fads for the sake of cultural embracement, attention, and accolades.

And at the expense of that gospel proclamation, that biblical centeredness upon which those denominations originated.

So that's what we mean by the "-ism." Now, when you listen to the episode, what you'll find is that we do center on one contemporary example of what that "-ism looks like within a particular denomination.

But what I want your listeners to understand is that overall, and this episode on cultural denominationalism was a more than three -hour episode.

It's about three hours and 13 minutes, is that what we're doing is we're walking you through a history of Protestant denominationalism.

And what those parts of denominations once stood upon in agreement with respect to what the gospel was and how to communicate that gospel.

And then we bring you into the 21st century and give you an inside look through a biblical lens about what some of those same denominations have done in totally acquiescing to cultural acceptance.

So as to totally, in many cases, to various degrees, deny the gospel altogether that those denominations were founded upon.

And when you think about the root word of denominationalism, Chris, that word denominate, well, by definition to denominate means to distinguish.

It means to differentiate yourself. I spent many years working in the banking and finance industry.

And the reason your currency is referred to as a denomination is because one denomination is not the other.

Your $20 bill is not your $50 bill. Your $10 bill is not your $5 bill.

Your $1 bill is not a $100 bill. Those bills are called denominations because they are differentiated.

They are distinct. The $50 bill is worth only $50, no more, no less.

The $20 bill, the same thing applies. And what we have with contemporary denominations today in Protestant evangelicalism is that they've changed the meaning of their denominations.

They've become $3 bills. They become less.

They are no longer what they profess to be. Let's put it that way. They are, again, to use the currency example, they're proving themselves to be counterfeits.

And nobody wants to be stuck with a counterfeit $50 bill. Amen. And when you were talking about this moments ago, the importance of defining terms, immediately what popped into my head was a sermon by our dear friend, one of the most powerful speakers alive today,

Votie Balcombe. He had a sermon where throughout his message, numerous times, he kept quoting from Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride, You keep using that word.

I do not think it means what you think it means. And he was referring to social justice primarily in that message.

But anyway, we're going to be going to our first break right now. If you have a question, please send it in to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question is a personal and private question.

Perhaps it's something to do with your own church where you're a member and you obviously do not want to identify yourself.

In fact, I wouldn't want to identify you if you're going to be speaking about your own church or a specific church.

So obviously, we'll grant your request to remain anonymous for personal and private reasons. But if it's a general question, please just give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away. We are going to be right back with Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison and more of our discussion on cultural denominationalism.

Don't go away. I say, boys are back in town, boys are back in town.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held

Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th. I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries, and Darrell Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org

and click on events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

So join me and Chris Arnzen September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.

for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,

that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

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I'm so thrilled that they have joined our advertising family. We are now back with Virgil Walker, Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison, who is on staff with Grace to You, and he just got a promotion, and I can't remember what the exact title is, but it is a substantial promotion, and they are both authors and co -hosts of the

Just Thinking podcast. We are addressing the theme, cultural denominationalism, what happens when a denomination goes wrong?

And Virgil, exactly what are you referring to specifically?

I'm sure that there are quite a number of ways denominations go wrong. Typically, historically, that meant that they became more and more liberal -leaning, more leftist, more compromising, more interested in appealing to the notions and tastes and desires and appetites of the lost world, but exactly what are you referring to here,

Virgil? Yeah, well, we really kind of took a 50 ,000 -foot view before we delved into the particular issues.

I think for the most part, those who have followed us on Just Thinking for quite some time recognize that one of the two areas that we really feel have been the catalyst to capitulation on the part of many local churches as well as denominations have been the issues of pragmatism, the idea that if it works, it's true.

If it works, it's right. They've embraced that idea in an effort to win the culture.

Alongside that is the issue of sentimentalism, and with that comes a whole host of problems.

One with sentimentalism, that's the idea that whoever has the saddest story wins.

Whoever can appeal to one's emotions wins. So when you're motivated by the elevation of one's feelings alongside whatever works, that's what's true and right.

You've got a recipe for disaster. I actually started out our time together on the podcast really walking us through another ism that has infected culture, which is feminism.

Again, with feminism comes both of the two ideas that I mentioned, the pragmatic approach to life as well as the sentimentalism.

We really, like I said, backed up. Rather than dialing in and drilling down, we had the time.

So because we weren't concerned about time clocks, we really kind of took a step back and said, what has been the issues that have permeated culture to such a degree that we're seeing it bleed into and infect local churches?

When we see it happening in local churches, denominations are quick to follow.

We talked about earlier during this interview, Daryl alluded to the fact that our goal was not to simply highlight a denomination.

But I started out by saying while my goal is not to highlight a denomination, my experience is within the

Southern Baptist Convention, more than a decade. And so my thought was there will be examples that I will use that will highlight from the

Southern Baptist Convention some of the issues that are related. Now, we didn't spend the entire time tearing apart

Southern Baptists. We want to praise those things which are good, but we also want to highlight areas that have veered away from or walked away from biblical orthodoxy, especially as it pertains to worship.

We're looking at the normative principle. Well, if the Bible doesn't say we can't do it, then we can.

We talked about issues of music and as it relates to worship and the expression of the word and what that's like.

Anytime you want to appeal to culture in an effort to win the culture, you're actually in a poor position from a scriptural standpoint because we recognize that the world is lost, that the world does not know

God, does not love God. So if we're trying to win them over in some way, shape, or form, we're having to appeal to something other than the gospel, something other than scripture.

And those things that we're usually appealing to are things that are, A, embraced in the culture, and B, that are completely opposed to a biblical worldview.

And Martin Luther, who had a normative principle approach to worship in the 16th century, never would have dreamed where that system would have taken the church.

I mean, obviously, he would never, I'm assuming, never have dreamed the outlandish and even blasphemous things that are occurring in worship services.

And I've used that word tongue -in -cheek worship around the world that people are obviously, ministers and congregations and denominations are specifically, as I even said earlier as a description, they're trying to appeal to the appetites of the lost.

They are, I think it was Dr. James White, in fact,

I know it was, who's going to be speaking at your conference. And I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the written quote in front of me, but he has said, if you're trying to attract sheep with goat food, you're only going to attract goats.

And people seem to be satisfied, just because their numbers are growing, with having goats and wolves fill the pews or folding chairs in their buildings.

This is quite a tragedy, is it not, Darrell? Yeah, it is a tragedy on many levels.

And what's interesting about what you just said in referencing Martin Luther, Chris, is that the reason

Martin Luther would never have dreamed that, at least with respect to the kind of denominationalism that we're talking about right now, the reason he would never have dreamed that is because Martin Luther believed in the sufficiency of scripture.

It's that simple. It's just that simple. Again, it ties back into the conference that we've mentioned a few times now that's upcoming in Washington, D .C.,

in the middle of September, just thinking about the Bible conference, and the theme being the sufficiency of scripture.

You have today denominations, Protestant denominations, and we point this out and we go into greater detail on what

I'm about to say in the episode, the Just Thinking podcast episode on cultural denominationalism, but you have denominations today, and churches that comprise those denominations who don't believe the

Bible. They don't believe the gospel. When you mentioned Martin Luther, I immediately thought of this quote from him where Luther said,

Christ can and does save you. He comes to you by his all -sufficient word.

If you have the scriptures, you have heaven itself. If you have the scriptures, you have every blessing that God desires to give your body and soul.

Luther was convinced of the sufficiency of scripture, but you have denominations now who are not.

It's really that simple. So as Virgil alluded to earlier, when you don't believe that scripture is sufficient, when you don't believe 1

Peter 1, which says that the believer has everything he or she needs in Christ for life and godliness, when you don't believe that, then your only default is to become a pragmatic, world -reflecting entity or organization.

You may be something else, but you're definitely not a denomination anymore. Virgil and I argue in the episode talking about goats and sheep.

Goats aren't attracted to the church. The goats by nature are not attracted to the church.

They're not attracted to the gospel. So why are you trying to attract people who by nature want nothing to do with you?

You as a believer, me, Virgil, Chris, none of us were attracted to Christ.

God drew us. God drew us to him. That's John 6, 44.

We weren't attracted to Christ. It's like I think it was J .C.

Ryle who said that when God, by his spirit, comes into our hearts, he finds no restful landing place.

We are enemies. And we're going to talk about this in Pennsylvania. We are conceived with an innate enmity towards God.

So this very idea that the church can attract the world is just fallacious on its face.

Amen. And we have to go to our midway break right now. If anybody would like to send in a question, we do have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered by Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison.

But if you want to get in line, send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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This is the midway break, which is the longer break in the middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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And also send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison on cultural denominationalism, what happens when a denomination goes wrong right after these messages.

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And Darrell one of the things now I have to be very careful because some of my dearest friends are

Presbyterian and I interview Presbyterians frequently on this program.

One of my most valuable advertisers is a Presbyterian church,

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia. They spend probably just as much as anybody if not more in advertising on this program.

But I have to say that some Presbyterians seem to think that they have an advantage over independent and autonomous

Baptist churches or Bible churches because of their denominational hierarchical structure and because of their synods and Presbyteries, they think that that somehow is going to prevent a sliding into apostasy.

But we have seen denominations over the centuries that began nearly as pristine as you possibly can be on this planet, in this sin -cursed world, and yet they've wind up totally apostate.

So this is not an argument of safety that can be relied upon, is it

Darrell? Yeah, no, it's not an argument that can be relied upon in terms of safety,

Chris, because see, here's the thing, if history teaches us anything, it's not I don't care whether you're a

Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, it doesn't matter what your denominational affiliation is.

It's not your synods. It's not your creeds. It's not your credos that keeps your denomination, as you said, pristine.

That's not what keeps your denomination safe. What keeps your denomination safe is the

Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the individuals who comprise that denomination to believe the

Gospel and to live by the Gospel. That's what keeps your denomination safe. Nothing structurally or organizationally or administratively keeps a denomination safe.

Why do you think they go astray? Because every denomination is comprised of sinners. That's what happens.

So for any denomination to boast that their hierarchical structure or the way that they're organized is inherently effectual in preventing denominational drift into the world, they're fooling themselves.

They're fooling themselves. The only way to prevent that is at the individual heart level.

It's not so much being a Presbyterian or a Methodist or a Southern Baptist. It's not so much that at all because none of that matters if that Presbyterian at the individual level, if that Methodist, if that Lutheran, if that Southern Baptist is not in the

Word of God, studying the Word of God, confessing and repenting of sin if they have no prayer life, if they're living one way

Monday through Saturday and another way on Sunday, your denomination is in as much trouble of crumbling as some denominations have been historically.

So no, that doesn't portend safety at all, not at all. Amen. And in fact,

Virgil, wouldn't you agree that although creeds and confessions are very important and valuable guardrails for a church to maintain biblical orthodoxy, to maintain a harmony with the church of the past as well as the present,

I should say. There are churches over these centuries that have maintained on paper creeds and confessions, and they were really not adhered to.

They were viewed as relics of the past, and it was almost a sentimental thing that gave them reason to continue to on paper saying, which was really in dishonesty, that they were adhering to these creeds.

A prime example is the Episcopal Church USA. They went into apostasy.

Now, I'm going to make sure I'm not broad brushing here. Not every congregation in the

Episcopal Church USA or not every minister in that denomination is apostate. But they began to slide as a denomination into apostasy years before they stopped claiming to adhere to the 39

Articles of Religion, which is an excellent confession. So isn't even the adherence of a confession, it has to be genuinely observed and maintained, and of course, church discipline, the elders and the overseers over the flock have to see if their members are truly regenerate and not just giving lip service to any kind of a creed, or even the

Bible itself, if they're just giving it lip service. Am I right, Virgil? No, I think all of what you said is spot on.

We know historically speaking that most creeds were put together as the result of someone going off into heterodoxy.

And so the idea there was let's line out what we believe and why we believe it in an effort to combat what we're seeing happening in some other denomination or church.

And what normally was taking place, even in those instances where people who were leaving the faith or veering from orthodoxy, they had their creed as well.

They had their ideas about what they believed and how they believed it. But again, there's a multi -layered approach that takes place to keep those kinds of things from happening.

One is a focus on the Word of God. Two is the preaching of that Word as men and women gather on the

Lord's Day. Three, a focus on discipleship. And you mentioned it when you were talking earlier about the idea that churches would indeed practice church discipline according to the

Word of God. So those kinds of things are helpful guardrails against the sinful drift that is a part of the natural heart of mankind.

Even with those things in place, it's difficult. Anytime you go back and look at church history, it should be obvious to the casual reader, it is only the hand of God that kept us attached to the

Word of God. It is only the Spirit of God leading men's hearts by the truth according to His Word that help us to know what the

Bible says today, what the Bible means by what it says today. Those kinds of things are definitely the case.

I think about a common example. In fact, we talked about it in this particular episode when we talked about the

Baptist faith and message. That's a creed, whether Baptists believe it to be or not.

It is at least a statement of faith that those who are Southern Baptists hold to, yet within the denomination, because there's no practice of church discipline, because there's a leaning into pragmatism and into sentimentalism, at this particular convention you had a credentials committee who were dealing with the issues of a particular church,

Rick Warren's church, Saddleback Church, where they had put three women in the role of elder, in the role of pastor.

They have a statement of faith, they understand what that says, and there was absolute confusion in the convention regarding what should be done about this.

That was an act of defiance, wasn't it? Absolutely it was. And so, what ultimately happened?

The credentials committee, they took a year, they took an entire year to review the situation, only to come to this convention and report back that they needed another year to determine what the

Baptist Faith and Message Act said. When Scripture is absolutely clear on this issue, what they squabbled about was whether or not the office of a pastor can be separated from the gifting of a pastor.

The other issue is whether the function of a pastor is connected to the title of a pastor.

What we're witnessing in all of that is a linguistic deconstruction of words, of ideas.

It's the same thing that we see culture do regarding the word marriage. Marriage has historically meant one particular thing.

But what has happened in culture is the deconstruction of the word so that it can mean something that it never was intended to mean, so that we can then say that two men can be quote -unquote married.

I mean, even nowadays with men being able to be pregnant. We've so deconstructed ideas.

Words no longer have meaning. And what we're seeing happen in culture is having its insidious effect in the church.

And so that's what we're seeing. We have a question, and I'll let Darrell start to give the answer.

And if Virgil wants to give any addition to the answer, that's fine.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who wants to know what are you observing to be the most common reasons why conservative denominations that have perhaps even for centuries been stalwarts for biblical truth have in recent years begun the downslide into going wrong?

Yeah, I'll first of all thank the listener for that question. I appreciate it. It's a very good question, and I'll answer that immediately.

I think it's because they're so hooked on the conservatism and not the gospel. They've been drawn in by the ism.

There's another ism for you, Chris. We're talking about cultural denominationalism, and now we're talking about conservative -ism.

And that's what happens. When you're drawn, when you're attracted to, or when you become, shall we say, enamored with what your denomination can do for you in terms of maybe politically, maybe your denomination takes a particular sociocultural stance or position, then you end up reprioritizing the things that have most value to you.

And that's what happens. Listen, I think we need to acknowledge something here, and I think the questioner brings up something that I think we need to talk about.

And that reality is that so -called conservative Christians are not immune to going astray.

They're not immune at all. Conservative denominations are not immune to going astray because when you see something that glitters more than the gospel does, and that can happen over time.

That can happen over time, even for conservative denominations. And I think, again, to point out the

Southern Baptist Convention, listen, I was a member of a Southern Baptist church for over 20 years. I was a member of Dr.

Charles Stanley's church in Atlanta, my hometown, for 23 years.

So when you get the Southern Baptist Convention that has gotten so big, so influential, so fat, even, so fat on itself, to where it can boast of being the largest

Protestant denomination in America, and you start boasting, and you start popping your collar a little bit, and you start puffing up about your resume, then it's easy even for conservatives to lose their way.

I'm not talking about they lose their salvation. So I don't want anybody to assume that that's what

I mean. What I'm saying is when you let the worldly glitter, the worldly bling, and what

I mean by bling, I mean the success of your denomination in worldly terms, in administrative terms.

You've got the numbers, you've got the money, you've got the missionaries, everything looks good on paper, and you prioritize those things over what your fundamental, unchanging, unalterable charter is, which is to preach the gospel for the salvation of lost sinners, then yeah, even your conservative denomination can be at risk.

Yeah, Virgil, one of the immediate ways, because some of our listeners might be scratching their heads saying, well, how can conservatism lead to error?

Well, immediately I can think of something that I've been saying for years, that there are some conservative individuals who profess to be

Christians and pastors and congregations and denominations who, in their earnest desire to boldly proclaim, and rightfully so,

I want to make this clear, rightfully proclaim that abortion is murder, rightfully proclaim that two men and two women cannot be married, and any claim that they're married is a damnable fiction.

And I could go on and on with things that conservatives unite on, but tragically, there are some who view those things, those issues, in a way that eclipses the gospel, that they actually start viewing those that deny the gospel but agree with them on an opposition to abortion and homosexuality, they start viewing these people as brothers in Christ.

They start viewing Mormons and Roman Catholics and so on as people who are safe and are really in no danger of damnation because of the fact that they unite on these conservative issues, which obviously are far beyond conservative issues.

These are biblical issues. But, Virgil, you want to comment on that? No, yeah,

I agree. There's a, you know, when you think about issues like that, when you think about ideas like that, conservatism, you know, denominationalism, when you think about these kinds of ideas, they're susceptible, denominations, conservatives, those ideas are susceptible to ideology.

I mean, to being an idol. You know, you can make anything into an idol.

I think about the fact that often when we take the idea of conservatism and simply attach it to a moral outcome, what you have there is just moral therapeutic deism.

You don't really have the essence of the Gospel. What's different about Christianity is the heart change that happens as a result of our connection to Christ.

He awakens our heart. We are now sensitive to Him. We come to a saving knowledge of Christ through repentance and faith, and it's because of the working on the inside of our heart that we begin to see our passions inflamed about issues that God is offended by, like abortion.

That's how that is supposed to work. What often happens in conservative circles with conservatism is it's the opposite.

People recognize maybe the strength of an argument about pro -life or the strength of the idea around marriage.

Everyone understands what marriage is because all of us are image bearers of God, and He stamped those ideas on the inside of our heart.

So it's not a shock or a surprise that the greatest strength, that the greatest connection to truth comes from those ideas.

People get excited about that. Maybe they feel more confident about that, and then when they're around others who feel the same way, they're motivated by that, but yet their ideas are devoid of the

Gospel. All of what they're doing to see change effected in culture has nothing to do with lives transformed by the message of the

Gospel. That's why you find people who are in that framework, who are connecting themselves to Mormons, or people in that framework who are connecting themselves to Catholics.

Why? Because their focus is not the Gospel's transformative power on the heart and seeing change in culture.

Their idea is, I'll change the culture, and really it stops there.

It really ends there more times than not. Yeah, and I want to also clarify that I believe it's the duty of every

Christian to speak out passionately against infanticide, aka abortion, and speak out against the unnatural abomination of sodomy, and homosexual so -called marriage, and all of those things.

Chris, can I say one thing? On that, just real quick. I concur with you, brother, 100%, but just going back to the listener's question.

I think a fault of conservatism within evangelicalism is that we've been content to just speak out on those issues.

When you speak out on those issues, apart from a Gospel context, all that is is protest.

All that is is speaking into a megaphone. You're not reaching the heart of the person at all.

We have to be able to say, we have to know the Gospel so well because you said it.

It's the duty of every Christian, it's the obligation of every Christian, and that is a divine mandate. It's not a political mandate, it's not a social mandate, it's not a cultural mandate.

We are mandated by Christ himself to go into all the world and make disciples.

It is not enough, and I think this is where conservatives have been a little bit short -sighted, is that it's not enough to speak out against something unless you pair that speaking out with a

Gospel message that will transform the heart of that individual so that they are regenerated in their heart to think differently about the murder of an unborn child.

They think differently about infanticide. They think differently about adultery. They think differently about stealing.

They think differently about work and labor. They think differently about eternity.

So we can't separate the two, and I think we've been doing that for far too long, which, again,

I think is a fault line of conservatism within evangelicalism, and we really need to bring that to the fore and talk more about that.

Yeah, in fact, since you mentioned Charles Stanley and the fact that you were a member of the church where he pastors for over 20 years, don't you agree that one of the primary reasons you have people and churches identifying themselves as conservative

Christians going astray and filling their buildings with false professors, with wolves in sheep's clothing, is because of seriously flawed if not heretical theology.

Charles Stanley, although he may be outwardly conservative in many ways, he is emphatic, in fact even wrote a book on eternal security where he believes that repentance and a transformed life are not necessary signs from a truly born -again individual.

And the irony is, any kind of conservative position that you may have on abortion and homosexuality, if you're teaching people that you can unrepentantly murder your children and unrepentantly continue on in your life as a homosexual, that is a false teaching that has extreme danger with eternal consequences.

Am I right, Darrell? Yeah, you're absolutely right, Chris. I mean, the entire epistle of 1 John speaks to that.

The entire epistle of 1 John is a treatise against what someone might call carnal

Christianity. The entire epistle of 1 John calls us to examine ourselves to make sure that we are truly regenerate.

The epistle of 1 John has verse after verse after verse admonishing us that you cannot walk on both sides of the track.

You can't walk, you can't call, you cannot profess to be a Christian, you cannot profess to know Christ salvificly and then live a habitual life of unrepentant sin.

You cannot. That is bastardizing God's grace to consider that you can do that is adulterating the grace of God.

So take advantage of it that you think you can live in unrepentant sin and at the same time call yourself a believer in Jesus Christ.

If anyone listening to me right now thinks that they can live that kind of life, I challenge them to go study the epistle of 1

John. Amen. And Virgil, before we go to our next break, I want you to perhaps address something that was prominent in your own

Just Thinking podcast about the cultural denominationalism theme, what happens when a denomination goes wrong, some things that we haven't addressed yet.

I want to make sure that we include the most important things that you and Darrell discussed in that message or in that interview or that broadcast, if you could, what are some of the things that we may not have addressed yet?

Yeah, no, I mean, pretty much covering the ground, we really unpacked, you know, first of all,

Darrell just really beautifully unpacked why this is important and why this is a pressing issue, why we would take the time to even cover this ground.

And I think, you know, it begins with the idea that folks who start denominations, people who come together to start a denomination, are indeed well -meaning.

They indeed have a desire to do the right thing, to say the right thing, to proclaim the right thing, but what you begin to see often when these organizations begin to become larger, they begin to lose their way.

So Darrell kind of took a big view, an overview of that, delved down scripturally, and this is kind of our natural flow.

Darrell will make the case biblically, theologically, historically, systematically, and then

I circle back with a lot of the practical application, what does this look like in the day -to -day?

Because one, we want people to be armed with what the Word of God says about the issue, not what

Darrell says, not what Virgil says, not what we think is right, or even a quote that we may deliver.

What we want them to know is before we even get started with something practical and with specifics, that we've laid a good foundation biblically, and that they've got that to take with them, not simply for the examples we're going to provide, but for every situation that they're going to come into contact with as they are involved in their area of denomination.

From that point, we then did a deep dive and began using specific examples, and I kind of shared one of them with you, the example with women pastors that people are engaging in, and we're seeing a proliferation of that more and more in different denominations.

We then followed that with the issue of worship, that worship is not just the singing parts, but that worship is the whole of the service, with the high point of it being the

Word of God that's preached. So we walk through even the preaching of the

Word, and how that's different, and sounds different today, and has been morphed today, has been minimized today, so that even the sheep who are there are malnourished, not getting what they need to be able to stand boldly with regard to God's Word.

So we talked about all of those issues, unpacked them with, what, Darrell said it early, what, three hours and 13 minutes of content.

I promise you, there's not an area that we didn't cover, and at least try to do so very thoroughly and biblically.

I'm sure, given another pass, Darrell and I could probably come up with another two hours worth of content on this particular issue as it relates to specific examples, but I think that's a good overview of what we covered.

Great. Well, I'm going to read to you another listener question before we go to the final break, and the final break will be a lot shorter than the other breaks.

But I'll read this question from an anonymous listener now, and you can answer it when we come back, both of you.

The anonymous questioner says that I really love the teaching and preaching and writing of Dr.

Tom Askell, who I know is a mutual friend of all three of you. I know that the

Founders Ministries has even published books by your guests today. But I was wondering if you believe that Christians should really start leaving the

Southern Baptist Convention because they see it as being an unchangeable and irreversible situation with the level of dangerous teaching and even, in some cases, apostasy.

And we'll have you answer that when we come back. And if anybody else has a question, please send it in rather quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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And as I said, they are up for renewal very soon. We're now back with Virgil Walker and Darrell Bernard Harrison.

Let's start with Darrell since you have been a member of a

Southern Baptist church as you have already indicated. You're currently a member of Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California if I'm not mistaken where John MacArthur is the pastor.

But should anybody stay in that denomination? And I understand that our anonymous listener brought up our dear friend

Dr. Tom Askell who is so faithful to the scriptures and biblically solid and a true shepherd because he is seeking to remain there to bring about transformation by God's grace and mercy.

But what is your opinion on this? Is this just an individual thing? And of course there's also two issues here because our listener didn't specify.

There are congregation members and there are pastors who have to make that decision. Right, yeah.

And thanks for pointing out that distinction there at the end of that comment. Chris, yeah, and I want to say in responding to the question,

I just want to reiterate that my response is as an individual. All right? I do not, although Virgil and I both have a dear personal and professional relationship with Dr.

Tom Askell who heads up Founders Ministries. For purposes of not just only the questioner but your listeners, we want to make sure that they understand that Founders Ministries, which is the ministry that Dr.

Askell heads up, is the publisher of the trilogy of books that Virgil and I have authored.

So Founders Press is the publisher of our first book Just Thinking About the State. They will be the publisher of our second book, which is in the editorial process not right now,

Just Thinking About Ethnicity. And our third book is going to be titled Just Thinking About the

Church. So we have both a personal and professional relationship with Dr. Askell as well as Founders Ministries.

Now, that said, my answer to the listener's question is no, you should not stand that denomination.

The Southern Baptist Convention and again, I have to say this again, Chris, what

I am saying is Daryl Harris' opinion only. I don't speak for Virgil.

I don't represent Virgil. I don't represent Founders Ministries. I don't represent

John MacArthur or Grace Community Church. Grace Community Church is non -denominational. This is my own personal opinion with respect to the question that your listener posed.

So in my opinion, no, you should not stand the Southern Baptist Convention. What I have witnessed over the past six to seven years, not to mention what we witnessed recently here in Anaheim, California a couple months ago where the annual

Southern Baptist Convention was held was the absolute embarrassing and disgusting even machinations and choreographed lying, deception, manipulation, the absolute coordinated orchestration of keeping certain people's voices hushed and muffled while amplifying the voices of other individuals.

And this all happened only at that convention over two to three days. I'm not talking about what has transpired within the

SBC over the past several years that led up to what has recently happened. So the

SBC is corrupt. And when I say that, I mean its leadership is corrupt.

It's corrupt. So what I would encourage, and this is unsolicited, okay,

I know this is not part of your listener's question, but what I would suggest is that if you're, whether you're a pastor or a congregant in a

Southern Baptist church, remind yourself of this, that that church belongs to Christ.

That church doesn't belong to your denomination. You are not obligated to a degree of loyalty to that denomination if that denomination has betrayed the

Lord of that denomination. And that's what's happened within the SBC. So you need to remind yourself whose church that belongs, who that church belongs to.

That church belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ who founded the church to begin with.

Now I'll stop there and I'll go ahead and hand it over to Virgil. Virgil? Yeah, I concur wholeheartedly with everything

Darrell just said. I think it's an absolute waste of time to try to reform an organization,

A, as large as the SBC, who has no real desire to reform. Their desire is to continue in the same direction that they're going in.

Tom, our dear friend, ran for the presidency of the convention on a platform with regard to seeing reform take place, seeing things righted.

And the election was a rejection of that. At the end of the day, the great commission that Christ gives the church to go out and to preach the gospel and seeing others come to salvation in Christ, that has nothing to do with seeing a denomination saved or a denomination brought back from the brink.

It has everything to do with going out and preaching the gospel, that gospel truth. And so energies and efforts spent in a direction to try to reform a denomination.

And what I mean by that, to the point that Darrell made, is the organizational structure that has no desire to see itself reform.

It's time to part ways. These churches are all autonomous churches who can go in a different direction, link up with those who have like mind and heart, and see the rest of their days spent in a fruitful endeavor as they go out, preach the gospel, and see others come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Amen. Well, before we run out of time, I want to make sure that I repeat the very important websites connected with my two guests today.

First, High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, where both

Virgil and Darrell will be speaking August 20th and 21st at the Just Thinking podcast conference.

That website is highpointbaptist .com highpointbaptist .com highpointbaptist .com

and also the website for G3 Ministries, where you can find out more about the

G3 conference, which is going to be coming up in September, September 15th through the 17th, in Washington, D .C.

This is the G3 regional conference. Go to g3min .org g3min .org

g3min .org for Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur, where Del Bernard Harrison serves on the staff.

Go to gty .org gty .org and don't forget about the Just Thinking podcast, whose website is justthinking .me

justthinking .me justthinking .me I want to thank the both of you for doing such an extraordinary job, as you always do.

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater