Louisiana HB 813: Historic Committee Hearing!

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Yes. Representative Bacala? Yes. Representative Bryant? Yes. Representative Fontenot?

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Yes. Representative Garofalo? Yes. Representative Gudo? Yes. Representative LaFleur?

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No. Representative Marcell? representative McCormick yes yes representative

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Hodges representative Muscarello yes representative Nelson representative

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Seaball yes representative Vileo representative Marino no seven yeas two nays thank you.

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House Bill 813 will be reported favorably. Thank you

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Mr. Chairman thank you committee I'm here today and I just entered my phone instead of hanging it up I apologize.

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I'm here today in favor of life and to boldly declare that the land the landmark case of Roe versus Wade should be ruled unconstitutional.

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Louisiana has already defied federal law by legalizing medical marijuana. If more than 15 states can defy federal government over marijuana we can do it to save the lives of innocent babies.

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We cannot wait on the Supreme Court to confirm that innocent babies have the right to life in Louisiana. Both medical and scientific advances over several decades have provided us with the greater understanding of pregnancy in the stages of a fetus making it clear the act of abortion ends the life of a human being.

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The taking of a life is murder and it is illegal. Louisiana law currently fails to provide equal protection for human life.

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Persons are deemed unworthy of legal protection for no other reason that they are not yet born. And I have to my right

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Pastor Brian Gunner which I've worked with on this bill from the start. I'd like to say it's more his bill than mine and to the right of him is

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Bradley Pierce attorney. He's the president of the Foundation to Abolish Abortion.

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So we'd be glad to take any questions or if you would like them to go ahead and speak.

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Well how would you like to do it Mr. Chairman? Well they filled out cards that their president would like to speak.

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They're at the table. Go ahead. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Pastor Brian Gunner from First Baptist Church in Livingston Louisiana.

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Mr. Chairman I want to thank you and members thank you. I want to thank Representative Bacala who promised a fair hearing on this and kept his word.

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We appreciate that very much. I do want to say that I brought about a hundred of my friends here with me today.

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Many of them would like to speak. We do realize that time is limited and we have about four persons including myself who really need to speak.

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Some who have flown a long way to get here today and then we understand as time allows others may be allowed to speak as well.

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So let me tell you what HB 813 is. This is a bill to immediately end abortion in the state of Louisiana.

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No compromises, no more waiting. Children in the womb are being murdered every day by abortion in this state.

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According to the Louisiana Department of Health, 7444 babies were murdered by abortion in the state of Louisiana last year, legally dismembered and killed in this state and it's time we put it to an end.

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The reality is brothers and sisters that the bloodshed in our land is so great and we have a duty.

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Every one of us will one day soon stand before Jesus Christ, king of heaven and earth and give an account of what we did to protect the least of these among us.

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And there is no more innocent person in this state than the unborn child in the womb. Now I have personally spent the last 14 years outside of the abortion clinics in our state in New Orleans, Baton Rouge and Shreveport.

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I have ministered to literally thousands of women on the sidewalk outside of abortion clinics.

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I have personally led the founding of two crisis pregnancy centers in this state and soon a third one that will be open in Vidalia later this year.

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I have personally been a foster care parent in this state caring for Children.

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When people say that the pro life movement doesn't care about Children after they're born, they're wrong. The reality is is that most foster parents in this state are pro life and want to see abortion ended.

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Now let me speak very clearly about what this bill does. This bill says that Children in the womb will have the exact same legal protections as all other persons.

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That means that we will not only protect their life from the moment of birth, but we will protect their life from the moment of conception.

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It's very simple. There's no reason why Children in the womb should not be equally protected like all other innocent persons.

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Now I know we have a trigger law. It says that if rose overturned abortion will be fined $1000 to the abortionist if he commits an abortion that is woefully insufficient.

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You need to realize that cruelty to an animal is fined by $25 ,000 currently in our state and I support that.

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But why is an animal's life 25 times more valuable under law in our state?

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We know that's not right and we need to fix it today. The reality is is that 20 babies on average are being murdered by abortion and you have the power to end it once and for all by voting yes on this bill.

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So I'm pleading with you and there are hundreds of pastors around this state who are watching this hearing live right now.

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There are people who are watching to see what you will do today and my prayer is that you will protect life by passing

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HB 8 13. And I end with this. The word of God says in Proverbs 24 verse 10.

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If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small. Rescue those who are perishing.

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Hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. And if you say behold, we did not know this.

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Does not he who weighs your heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it?

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And will he not repay each man according to his work? We will all stand before Jesus one day soon and I pray that you will be able to say with me that you did everything you could to end abortion in this state and protect their lives once and for all.

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Thank you. Here's ladies and gentlemen.

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Let's try to let's try to keep any applause out of the right now so we can get through our witnesses.

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Okay, Mr Pierce. Yes, Mr Chairman members, thank you for your time today. Um, my name is

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Bradley Pierce. I speak in favor of House Bill 8 13. The abolition of Abortion in Louisiana Act of 2022 in 13 states.

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Legislators have introduced bills like this one to abolish abortion by providing equal protection of the laws to pre born

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Children as a constitutional attorney and as the president of the Foundation to Abolish Abortion.

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I've had the privilege of drafting many of these bills and today there are really two questions for the members of this committee to answer in your own minds.

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First is Roe versus Wade. The law of the land. We believe the answer is no.

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And after the leak two days ago, it appears that the Supreme Court is ready to agree with that, that it's not the law of the land, which brings us to the second question.

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Is a fetus a person? I'm a christian by God's grace and God's word says that civil officials must do justice without partiality for all persons.

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And our U. S. Constitution prohibits states from denying to any person the equal protection of the laws.

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We believe that yes, life begins at conception and a fetus is a person from the moment of fertilization.

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This is true logically, scientifically, constitutionally and biblically. Because of this, the only consistent position is that from the moment of fertilization, we must protect their lives with the same laws that protect our lives.

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What criminal laws, what criminal laws protect your life from homicide from the moment of fertilization?

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Those same laws should protect equally protect all persons in the state born and unborn. That's what it means to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

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That's what it means to love your neighbor as yourself. That's what it means to provide equal protection of the laws.

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And that's what this bill does. So I urge you to provide equal protection for the lives of these precious

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Children by voting to approve this bill for passage. Well, I have a question from Representative Garofalo.

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Yes, sir. Not a question, Mr Chairman. Just at the appropriate time, I'd like to move favorably. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

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And I was just about to say if you have any specific questions about the language of the of the bill, I welcome your questions.

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Yeah, I'll have a question. Um, the part of of your of the bill that gives me the most concern is the part that says, um, without regard to the opinions and judgment of the

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Supreme Court, and it and it says it's judicial progeny past and futures.

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Are we saying that the legislature has the authority to pass a bill and disregard the opinions of the

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Supreme Court in the past, present and future? We're specifically what you're talking about is those that, um, that deny equal protection of the laws to preborn

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Children. Those those opinions, like Roe versus Wade, Planned Parenthood versus Casey, that sort of thing. Right, right.

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And when I'm looking at this bill and other bills, what I'm trying, what I first try to do is I separate the subject matter from what the words are saying to say,

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What are we doing? And what? And I understand how passionate everyone is about the subject matter.

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But what I'm what I'm looking at is, does this bill say we we will, by this bill, disregard the opinion of the

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Supreme Court in the past, present and future? What it's what it's referring to is ultimately this the members of this committee, the members of this body swear an oath not to the not to the court, but to the

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Constitution. And so if the court violates that Constitution and requires you to violate that Constitution, if they ignore the

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Constitution, then you must ignore the court. And that's what this bill does. The Roe versus Wade is unconstitutional.

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You've sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. And so we believe that you must ignore Roe versus Wade, just like the

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Supreme Court is poised to ignore Roe versus Wade themselves. Okay, can I speak to that?

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Yes, sir. Just briefly. Um, when the Dred Scott versus Sanford ruling was delivered by the

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U. S. Supreme Court, they ordered states in the north to return escaped slaves to their slave owners in the south, and the northern states, namely

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New York and Massachusetts, refused. William Seward was governor of New York at the time, and he said that the

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U. S. Supreme Court is not the supreme law of the land. There is a higher law in heaven, and we have to be obedient to God.

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Okay, let me add one more thing, Representative Chairman. And that is that the supremacy clause of the

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U. S. Constitution says this Constitution and the laws which shall be made in pursuance thereof shall be the supreme law of the land.

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And so as long as the Supreme Court said what they say is in accord with the

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Constitution, then absolutely Louisiana needs to follow it. But when it violates the Constitution, then

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Louisiana needs to follow the Constitution. Okay, thank you. Um, we have more members that are.

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I mean, we have more people that are present that are in the wish to speak. Do you have a you said you wanted to have at least two others who've traveled a long way.

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Okay, so who? Which ones are they? Because I've got that Zach Lautenschlager and Will Hall. I'd like to make sure they get to speak.

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We can call them up now, Mr Chairman.

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Members, I'm Dr Will Hall, the director for the Office of Public Policy. We lose Babs Convention. I'm here to tell you that Louisiana Baptists are 100 % pro life, and I urge you to support

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HB 8 13. I'd like to give my testimony by answering some of the criticisms

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I've heard murmured in the hallways and some things that Pastor Gunter is addressed. But I won't explain what this means to be pro life.

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Louisiana Baptists are pro life from the womb through eternity, and we're pro life at every stage of life in between.

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And what I'm gonna say about Louise and Baptist, I could say about Catholics because Catholic charities do many of the same things that I'm gonna mention here.

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Losing Baptist established a practice of care center on our state ministry campus in Alexandria. Our churches work with other dominations and members of community to provide counseling for mothers.

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But more more than that, we distribute milk diapers. We provide rent utilities for mothers and their newborn

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Children. We provide health care for mothers during the pregnancy and immediately after the pregnancy of her and her baby.

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We also provide job training from others. We have a residence in Monroe. Our Children's Home and Family Ministry will provide temporary residence for mothers and their

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Children who are in distress while we look for a permanent solution for the situation.

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We have Christian Job Corps program for women. We have Christian Job Corps programs for men. President, then

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President Bush and then Vice President Gore have both said that it's the best of its kind in the country and lifting women out of poverty into productivity.

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We have celebrate recovery ministries were help people with their addictions, orphan care, foster care, adoption.

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We have five counseling centers around the country around the state. We minister the homeless.

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We minister to uh individuals in jails. In fact, we provide transitional housing for nonviolent offenders who have been released.

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We minister the elderly, the homeless. And if you've been a victim of one of the four hurricanes the last two years, you've seen men and women cooking meals, doing mud outs with chainsaws with ugly yellow hats and ugly lily shirts.

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Those are losing baptist helping our state recover. Uh I would say this that indeed losing baptist or pro life from the womb through eternity.

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We deeply care about the beginning of life. We deeply care about afterlife. We deeply care about each stage of life, but we realize that it all begins in the womb.

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And so we would urge you to protect the innocent in the womb and pass HB 8 13.

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Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr Chairman, members of the committee,

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Zach Lautenschlager, vice president of action for life. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm not going to take any extra time to repeat what's already been said.

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I want to register action for life's strong support for this bill. Thank Representative McCormick and Representative Seba and Garfield for your support.

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Um and we urge the members of the committee to stand up for the pre born and to recognize that equal justice is due to every person.

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Thank you. Thank you. Um okay.

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Are there are there other members? I mean other audience members that wish to come forward and speak or are we going to submit?

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Okay. Yes ma 'am. What is your name? Mr Thibodeau.

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Okay. I'll find your card. Come on up. State your name.

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I'm sorry. Toby Thibodeau. Yeah. You actually I think you felt out two cards. I'm in several committees today.

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Go ahead. Thank you chairman and committee members. My name is Toby Thibodeau and I come to you today not speaking as a lobbyist but speaking as someone with personal experience.

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I have emailed each of you a letter from an adoptive mother and I encourage you to read it.

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But for now I will touch on a few points of the letter. This is from December 22nd 1990.

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Merry Christmas. We're getting ready for our special gift. We've bought a baby bed, a changing table and dressers etcetera.

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And all the time we've been rearranging rooms and moving furniture to prepare a special nursery for the baby.

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The spirit of God has been rearranging our priorities and our values making room for the baby in our lives and hearts.

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Actually he began work a work of preparation in my heart last spring. I'd be sitting in my home office when the agony of intersection would grip me.

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I'd be walking up and down the hall bent over double weeping and interceding.

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I knew I was pleading with God about a baby. Through the years through without children the

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Lord has given me incredible grace. Now I had experienced very very little grief over our barrenness but now

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I was experiencing an emptiness. A longing and a sense of urgency and desperation like I'd never known.

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We cannot express the fulfillment excitement and joy that your special gift is bringing into our lives.

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We also know that this gift is coming at a great personal cost and sacrifice to you and we love and respect you for that.

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You can always rest assured and sure in certain knowledge that the gift you gave us will be treasured above anything else in our lives and that we will do our utmost to install a reverence and love for God in the child's heart to rear it to serve and honor him and to be a blessing to its generation.

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You have honored God and now he will honor you. God bless you and thank you from the very bottom of our hearts and whenever you feel a little brush of wind against your cheek just know that it's me blowing you a kiss.

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That's the heart of an adoptive mom and the girl who gave their baby a fighting chance was me.

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I believe regardless of the situation there is positive outcomes for choosing life.

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When you take God out of a situation you not only take life away but you also take the mercy and the grace that only he can give.

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I was simply young and quite frankly stupid but I thank

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Jesus that I know that an innocent life was just as important as my own life.

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So I encourage you to pass this bill to end abortion because there are other options.

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Through my mistake I became a vessel and by God's grace

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I was not only able to save a life but was able to give happiness to a couple who longed for a child and giving life will always be the greatest gift that I could ever give.

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Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon committee. I'm Brandy resident of Baton Rouge.

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Some of y 'all know some of y 'all don't. I was kind of hesitant about speaking on this bill because I knew how it was gonna go but I just want to put a face on the youngest victims impacted.

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I was conceived in sexual violence when domestic violence didn't end my life.

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My mom's abuser forced her into an abortion clinic. Like I told

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WAFP yesterday, I'm stubborn. If you want to know my mom's response when she realized that I wasn't dead.

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When the doctors tried to get my mom to institutionalize me because they told I'd be a vegetable and I lived to my 10 years.

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First few years of my life I laid on a blanket and gurgled. I couldn't say mom, couldn't move, couldn't nothing. She told them

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God gave her to me the way I was for a reason and she was going to do everything she could to raise me to be as independent as I can be.

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Three days before she passed away, after being told my entire life that I would never be able to use a stove or live independently because of my problems from pregnancy.

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I was able to brown -grind meat on her stove and I think that's when she realized that I would be okay and also

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I've been in the shoes of someone forced to have one from being raped.

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May 8th will be the 19 year anniversary of that and most of y 'all know May 8th this year is

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Mother's Day. So I can stand in the shoes of the youngest and people on the other side.

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While I don't judge people that have it for whatever reason, there's really,

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I mean, I didn't deserve what happened to me. My mom didn't deserve what happened to her but that doesn't dictate my human value or anything else because a lot of y 'all are probably tired of seeing me up here on everything

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I'm up here on but I'm alive for a reason to be a voice for people that are living from a child to an elderly person that can't be up here because someone with my medical record is supposed to be confined to a wheelchair and I know who

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I am and I'm supposed to be in an institution and I don't take it for granted that I'm not. So please support this bill.

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Thank you. Thank you. Okay, I can, we have one, well, how many was that?

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Let me just read into the record how many cards we have. We also, we also have some cards here that are

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President wishing to speak in opposition. I have in my hand,

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I have the President not wishing to speak category in support is 74.

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I have President and not wishing to speak in opposition is 15 more cards which will all be put into the record.

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I believe there may have been 10 more on the President and wishing to speak. Green cards.

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We have a white card, President would like to speak.

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It says on amendment only, Lauren Lampert. Yes, ma 'am. No, you're welcome to come up.

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The author said he was going to call a few. That's why I didn't call all. So, what is your name, ma 'am?

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Susan Rayburn. Okay, I'll find your card, but you can begin. I'm here today.

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I'm an attorney, but I'm also a Christian and I go out to the abortion clinics in Baton Rouge and in New Orleans, usually

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Monday and Tuesday here and sometimes Thursday and Friday. The gal that works as an escort asked me an important question.

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She asked me to come over and she wanted to know something. This was just Monday, this past Monday, and she said,

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I looked you up, because they look us up, they know who we are. She said, I saw you are a golden girl.

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You are a Tigress, back when they went to the Final Four in Philadelphia. You were a

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Dallas Cowboy cheerleader. You went to law school. You have a daughter now that you are going to abort and she's a surgeon.

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And by the way, I want to know the answer to this question. Would you have been able to do all that if you wouldn't have gotten your two previous abortions?

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Because she knows that's my story. And she said, and by the way, it wasn't two babies, it's three, because one of them was twins.

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And she said, so you tell me why you think it's okay to be out here telling these girls not to get an abortion?

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And I said, you're asking the wrong question. The question is, was being a golden girl,

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Tigress, Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, all these things that when you're 19 and 20 and you're young seem so important, was it worth killing my babies?

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Are my babies so valueless that all this stuff? And I worked in Hollywood and I wrote and I worked on Star Trek, New Generation.

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Is that so wonderful and important? But you know what?

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When you're back there and when you're young and you've got the state and telling you it's okay and you've got all the people telling you that it's okay, and I'm here to tell you that in Hollywood a lot of these actresses that you've seen that are all about go get your abortion,

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I know some of them personally, and I know the tears that they cry because they had an abortion.

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Don't let them fool you. I know that you will never get over the destruction that you do to yourself when you have an abortion.

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And no matter what these people want to say, and it's health care and all this kind of stuff, and you'll hear all this stuff about how, you know, we're taking the rights away and you know, especially the minorities, because they really want to kill minority babies.

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They love killing minority babies and they will tell you all about, the minorities, the minorities, we can't take abortion away from the minorities.

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They're really the KKK of today because they want to make sure that the minorities are all being killed.

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And that line is 50 to 60 women, Mondays and Tuesdays, many from Texas. That line down in New Orleans, they're all in a line and you can look at it, how many, how many are minorities?

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The entire line, pretty much. And I am here to tell you that any idea that girls need a choice and they've got to have a choice and they can go and have their wonderful life, your life isn't, you will, you carry this with you in the depths of a place that it is only the

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Lord Jesus Christ that can ever, ever help you to get over what you've done.

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And I don't care how great your life is, you will know at the end of the day, you have killed your babies because you thought all this stuff you could do was way more important.

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And add on to that the many other reasons that they do it. A horrible family, bad parents that would hate you or they would be ashamed, they'll hate you and be ashamed of you no matter what you do, whether you have your kid or not.

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Your friends that you think are so important, your boyfriend that you think is so important, no. At the end of the day, when you're 61 years old, you're still living with the fact that you killed your babies.

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And we need to end abortion now. Slavery was ended, there's where I've gone.

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I'll let you go in a minute over your time. But thank you, ma 'am. Um, okay.

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Is there anyone else that's filled out a car that wishes to speak right now? Okay, come on up.

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All right. And I would just ask my friends, let's be brief. Well, we're, we're, yeah, we're, we're, we've got the, not that this bill is not important, but we still have three more bills to go before we have to go to the floor.

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And let me take the cards back and go ahead and give me your name. My name is

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Chris Oba. And you filled out a card? Yes, sir. Okay, go ahead. And I'm here to speak on.

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I support House Bill 8 13. I'm not sure if I look familiar to you,

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Mr Marino. Um, but God used you in my life, whether you know it or not. You were my attorney when you were a criminal lawyer.

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Uh, and I was facing charges in Gretna, Louisiana. Um, and when

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I mentioned this, by no way means do I mean any disrespect. Um, but it appeared as though you fought against me when you told me that they would not allow me into drug court and that I was going to prison.

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And the judge opened my folder and said that he did not feel comfortable allowing me back into society.

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Um, he did not want to take responsibility for that. And I was sentenced to eight years in prison.

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But I don't regret one day. And so I thank God for using you to fight against me rather than on my behalf, because in prison,

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God saved me. And I said that to say before I was saved at the age of 18,

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I had my first son. He's 20 years old now. I'll be 39 next month. My son is 20 years old.

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Within the next year or two, his mother got pregnant two more times. I drove her to the abortion clinic in middle of Louisiana.

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They do not allow men into the abortion clinic. But what

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I do know is that when she walked out of that abortion clinic, those two times there was a heaviness upon her face that me being a man can't explain.

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But me being her boyfriend at the time could sense, you know, when the person you're with is dealing with something.

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When she walked out of that abortion clinic twice, I sensed the heaviness on her that I cannot explain.

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I want to read these two and I'll wrap up. I know we live in a society that is casted the word of God aside.

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But one thing I know is someone who was not raised in a Christian home. The power of the word of God does not return void, and it's still saving people today by the grace of God.

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And I stand before you here a changed man out of prison for 10 years because of God and his word.

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Exodus 23 verse seven says this. Keep far from a false charge and do not kill the innocent and righteous.

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But I will not acquit the wicked in Romans chapter two.

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I'll start at verse 13. It says, For it is not the heroes of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

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But when Gentiles who do not have the law by nature, do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

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How is this? Paul goes on to say they show that the work of the law is written on our hearts.

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How? While their conscience also bears witness, their conscience.

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There is not one of us here today who does not have a conscience. Why is it that there's not one of us here today who do not have a conscience?

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Because Mr Obama is something God given you're at more than four.

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I'll close because conscience is something that God given. I said that to say this consciously. Every single one of us know that abortion is wrong, and it is murder scientifically.

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Biologically, that is a human being inside the womb, and our conscience testifies that it is wrong.

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Abortion is murder. Thank you. Thank you. Give us your name, please. My name is Susan Highland.

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Go ahead. Yes, okay. As we meet in the basement of this Capitol House, isn't it comforting to know that this massive building that's that is above us is on a firm foundation and that it was built with a level.

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Each room was formed based on the same standard, the same plumb bob so that the building does not lean this way more or that way more and that, um, and that it stands the winds of time no matter how strong they are that comes through our great state of Louisiana.

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So I'm going to ask a question. What does what does humankind reproduce a compass cells a clone of either parent?

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No, at conception, it is a unique genetically coded being of the human species.

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That is how you've defined it in the in your feticide laws in the past.

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A child from fertilization. This being is developing by degree as we all do, whether the child is in the womb or out of the womb, it's just a different degree of development from conception to adulthood.

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Mothers are to care for the child prenatally and postnatally. They house, they feed, they defend and promote development until they develop into an independent adult.

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The parents are held accountable if they abandon or neglect before that time.

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Abortion is murder and that is a crime against humankind.

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So I call you to be an advocate of justice of of the golden rule.

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The whole world knows there's a golden rule that there is a God, whether they admit it or not.

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There is a God because there's man has a need for some reason beyond themselves and it calls us to love our neighbor as ourself and one way to do that is do not murder them.

35:49

Do not murder our neighbor. So I call on you to act in support of the mother and the child.

35:56

Yes, there are challenges. I know them. I worked in the medical field. I've treated children with disabilities.

36:02

I have family members that have adopted children and I'm I've worked in the homes of the indigent.

36:08

So I've seen that there are needs and challenges, but you have also worked toward meeting those needs and I ask you to review the different services that you do provide to these women and that they are suitable for not just the ones that get into it initially, but so that others can do it.

36:27

So I call on you as a child, the name of a child of a mother that walked out of that line to the abortion clinic, she named him legend.

36:37

So I call on you, Louisiana legislators to be a legend in our time as a state who legislates for a level and a firm benchmark that holds.

36:52

Do not murder the innocent work as if all life is valuable from conception throughout life.

37:02

Please bring HB 813 to vote and pass and Deuteronomy 21 9 says so you shall purge the guilt of innocent blood from your midst when you do what is right in the sight of the

37:16

Lord. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay, we have anyone else?

37:25

I'm gonna move on to the last part, which is the cards in opposition. President wishing to speak

37:31

Melissa Flournay, uh, Gwyneth O 'Neill,

37:37

Sarah, Um, a modulo. And again, I'd like to just try to reiterate that we're on a three minute rule and we're close to having to go on to the floor.

37:53

Yeah, you can go before me. Go ahead.

38:03

Good afternoon. I'm Ellie Schilling. Um, I put in a red card as well. I have an attorney in New Orleans that represents reproductive health care providers, and I have some other attorneys with me that are going to speak about some of the problems with this bill.

38:17

But I want us to just sort of, like, level set here first that this is a homicide statute.

38:22

What this bill does is to specifically amend the crime of homicide and the crime of criminal battery to enable the state to charge people, including the pregnant person, the pregnant mother at any stage of gestation from the moment of fertilization without the need for implantation without the need for implantation.

38:45

So we were here last week on a bill that would have affirmatively put protections in the law to say that pregnant the pregnant woman cannot be criminally charged in circumstances like this.

38:59

And this committee failed to pass that bill. This is the exact opposite.

39:05

This is saying that people can be charged with murder for any act that they take against their own pregnancy or anyone who assists them with it.

39:16

So, as I said, the other attorneys with me have more to explain about the implications of that.

39:25

Um, the last thing I'll say is that, uh, Representative Marina, to your point, of course, about, uh, that the bill also says that Supreme Court precedent can be disregarded.

39:35

The explanation that you heard where that is basically that if a legislature doesn't agree with the

39:41

Supreme Court precedent because the legislature decides that they think that the Supreme Court has interpreted the

39:47

Constitution incorrectly, then a legislature doesn't have to follow that. There's no limiting principle on that.

39:54

That could be applied with any Supreme Court precedent that any legislature, for whatever reason, thinks was wrongly decided.

40:02

It would completely annihilate the Supremacy Clause, and there's a lot of other separation of powers issues in this bill.

40:09

Thank you. Hi, I'm Sarah Mojla. I wear a lot of hats.

40:14

I've been here a couple of times, and actually today I have on my mama hat. I was blessed to conceive my beautiful, amazing, perfect daughter in November 2020, thanks to IVF, which actually would be criminalized by this bill.

40:29

Um, because Louisiana doesn't have mandatory comprehensive sexual and reproductive health education, there's a lot

40:36

I learned while undergoing fertility treatments. And so I'm gonna give you all a quick education on IVF and disclaimer, yes,

40:43

I'm a lawyer. Um, and I'm speaking from my personal experience with IVF. While preparing for IVF, I took many meds that were injected into my stomach or my back side, um, usually by my partner, who was profusely apologizing, but also professing love for me.

40:59

And this helped my eggs grow. And when those follicles reached the right size, they were retrieved.

41:05

And I had 23 follicles retrieved using a hollow needle inserted into my ovaries while I was under general anesthesia.

41:14

And later that day, doctors fertilized those eggs and some of them started to divide. This bill would give those cells personhood such that anything that happens to them after could give rise to criminal prosecution.

41:27

This criminalizes IVF. Not every embryo and not every, every fertilized egg, um, can be brought to term.

41:36

So they have to be tested. And so to test an embryo, cells are taken from it and tested.

41:42

And this bill would allow my doctor and I to be prosecuted for battery for this standard medical practice.

41:49

And then further to preserve embryos for later use, they must be frozen. And that's a standard practice.

41:56

And this could subject me and my doctor to prosecution for battery again. And embryos that were tested and not found to be viable are disposed and donated to science or they're disposed of.

42:08

And that is standard. And under this bill, doctors and patients like me could also be charged with murder or negligent homicide in a variety of standard medical practices with IVF.

42:22

Two months later, so I was very lucky two months later, well, first, I had one embryo transferred into my uterus.

42:28

And about a week later, I learned I wasn't pregnant. And that embryo wasn't viable. And that was a really, really hard day.

42:34

It was complete with a lot of crying, and a lot of second guessing. And under this bill, a person who has been trying very, very hard to get pregnant, will find out that day that on the day they're not pregnant, now they could be investigated and prosecuted.

42:50

And so that's, that's the criminalization of IVF. In this bill.

42:56

There are also a lot of interesting side effects that I had from being pregnant. And so my favorite one to talk about, which may make folks uncomfortable, but I'm happy to talk about it because it's real.

43:06

And we need more education about these things. It's called lightning crotch. And what happens is, a bunch of pains ricocheted through my vagina, randomly throughout my pregnancy, which is totally normal.

43:19

And another, and I heard the time, I'm going to be good for you, Representative Marino, I promise.

43:25

Another was becoming very completely sure that legislators and the government have no business forcing people to give birth.

43:32

Like people are not forced to donate blood or marrow or organs, even though people die every day from not having access to those things.

43:41

And doctors and hospitals can't even take your organs after you die, if you haven't previously said that they could.

43:47

And forcing people to give birth to children means they have less power than a dead person. And so...

43:53

All right, we... One second, one second. All I'm gonna say, one second,

43:59

I promise, is that there are a long list of other bills that could be brought. And one of them that I would ask y 'all to bring instead is comprehensive education to prevent unplanned pregnancies, because that's how you prevent abortions.

44:13

Yes, I'm happy to answer questions. There are no questions. Members of the committee, my name is Gwyneth O 'Neill.

44:18

I'm here speaking today from the perspective of a lawyer and a predominantly criminal practitioner.

44:25

As you said earlier, Representative Marino, that this, this bill undermines the very system that governs not just the state of Louisiana, but the system of government that, that exists in this country.

44:40

And when you say the word abortion, people automatically choose a side. And so what you said resonated with me,

44:47

Representative Marino, that, that take the substance out of this for just a moment, and think about why this bill is reckless, why this bill is bad law, because it sets a precedent that could undermine our very system of government that we've decided we should have in the state of Louisiana and in the

45:08

United States. This bill is blatantly unconstitutional in many different ways.

45:14

So I'll just name a couple to begin. It undermines the concept of separation of powers by threatening impeachment or removal of judges who might oversee constitutional challenges, which, for anyone who didn't take eighth grade government, is the very purpose of the judiciary.

45:32

The legislature has a job, an important job, but so do the courts. And it's not the legislature's prerogative to strip away the power of the courts on a topic by topic basis.

45:47

That this bill is so preposterous in its attempt to dismantle our system is why we need multiple branches of government and checks and balances.

45:56

This bill says that the United States Constitution and the U. S. Are the supreme law of the land that's written into this bill, but it contradicts that directly.

46:06

Just a couple sentences down, because if the Supremacy Clause is what it says, then you can't treat as void, which this bill seeks to do specific federal statutes, regulations, treaties, orders and court rulings.

46:22

You just can't have it both ways. I invite you to take the principle behind this bill and to apply it in other contexts to see how dangerous it is.

46:31

This is a committee that hears issues related to criminal justice. Well, tomorrow, can we decide that we should abolish the right to counsel for poor people who can't afford lawyers?

46:42

Should we decide that same sex marriage is not an enumerated right? But we have the power, even though the

46:48

Constitution has recognized that that's a right that tomorrow we can take that away to. The reality is that we cannot cherry pick which rights

46:56

Louisiana intends to recognize and which we may forego. But this also represents a major departure, not just from regular constitutional law, but from established criminal law.

47:08

It changes the language of personhood to begin it. Fertilization. There were a lot of people speaking in support who talked about this is protecting from the womb.

47:17

No, no, this goes beyond that. This makes embryos people. And if embryos are people outside of the womb, then embryos can be victims.

47:28

And everything that my colleague here said is true. At best, this bill makes I. V.

47:33

F. Unworkable. But reality is, it makes it criminal because freezing an embryo would become a battery.

47:42

The disposal of an embryo, even if incidental, would be a negligent homicide or potentially a murder.

47:49

But this bill goes even further than that, because it carves out. Please wrap. Yeah, go ahead. Carves out an exception.

47:54

We've established it's been long established law that justification is not a defense to murder.

48:00

But this carves out an exception, which, to be honest with you, it is worded so confusingly that even as a criminal practitioner,

48:09

I'm not entirely clear what it's trying to do. But it seems clear that what it's trying to do is carve out an exception where no exception would exist under any other context.

48:20

And so this bill is very problematic. It also presents ex post facto violation issues that are unconstitutional.

48:28

And so it's a terrible law. It's a terrible policy. It's a terrible precedent, even ignoring what the substance matter is.

48:37

And so I urge you all to oppose this bill. Thank you. Um, we have one final card, um, which is

48:44

President would like to speak in opposition. Melissa Forney. And we are going to do only three minutes.

48:50

I just don't. I don't. We are at two o 'clock, which is the time we go to the floor. Thanks for you.

48:59

Um, Mr Chairman, I'm Melissa Flournoy. I'm here today to ask you to defer House Bill 8 13.

49:05

This bill has too many unintended consequences. I think the Supreme Court may be on the way to accomplishing the goal of overturning

49:13

Roe v. Wade. But today I want to talk about the consequences for women and what this bill unintended.

49:20

I hope unintentionally does. The person had designation from fertilization will have consequences.

49:27

The way this bill is written, it would outlaw many forms of birth control. As you know, the act of procreation requires a man and a woman in order to create a fertilized egg.

49:40

Oftentimes we don't talk enough about male responsibility. Um, and so I think there are lots of issues with this bill.

49:47

But most of all, I think we need to take a deep breath and see that this bill would add language that would make most forms of birth control illegal.

49:59

Um, one of my concerns is that I'll add language that essentially would say or that I would say that no man should have unprotected sex with the woman unless that woman has consented to become pregnant and carry his child.

50:15

Um, if we allow or outlaw contraception and let's talk about this from a legal perspective.

50:25

Griswold v Connecticut in 1965 made it legal for married couples to use contraception.

50:33

Eisenstat v Baird in 1972 made it legal for unmarried couples to use birth control pills.

50:40

Birth control pills are intended to prevent women from getting pregnant by delaying ovulation.

50:46

I. U. D. S. Which are a common birth control method which stands for inner and inner and uterine device discourages a fertilized egg from implanting and growing and becoming a fetus.

50:59

We've passed legislation in this in this legislature around emergency contraception for women who've been raped or or uh and potentially could be pregnant.

51:12

This legislation would outlaw plan B which can delay ovulation and another form of emergency contraception

51:20

Ella which can prevent implantation. We needed to protect women and support health care for women and men to avoid unwanted pregnancies.

51:32

Um, part of my concern was referenced by Mrs Jola about the need for legislation.

51:38

If we want to really address unwanted pregnancies, we should talk about birth control.

51:45

We should talk about sex education. We should talk about access to health care. Uh, as was mentioned, this bill would outlaw

51:52

I. V. F. It would give status to fertilized eggs. One of my personally biggest fears um is the criminalization of miscarriages.

52:03

One of my friends just had a miscarriage and we're at the emergency room. One sentence, one sentence.

52:09

I'm concerned that the way this bill is listed, we're going to create a cause of action against women who have miscarriages.

52:16

One in seven pregnant women have had a miscarriage. I understand the motivation for the language.

52:22

But as it's written, there are too many unintended consequences that affect the rights of men and women to control their fertility.

52:31

Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Um, Representative McCormick, would you like to come back to the table?

52:38

I don't know if we have any other members that do we have? Do we have a quorum? I'm gonna invite you back to the table to close.

52:51

We have a motion right now by Representative Garofalo to report this bill favorably that I don't have a quorum.

52:57

So yes, Representative Bacala.

53:03

Well, while we're gathering a quorum, just a comment, not a question. First of all,

53:08

I think most of us here are strongly pro life. We do have concerns that the bill, the constitutionality of the bill and how it would proceed if enacted.

53:19

But I will make a point that under the House rule section two number 15, it clearly states questions of constitutionality are left to the courts, and that is regarding our debates of bills.

53:34

So while I would like to to strengthen our abortion, and I intend to vote for it, so don't get me wrong.

53:41

But but while we were trying to strengthen the our our ability to protect the unborn,

53:48

I think there has to be a balance in that we can we can go too far and know that a bill is going to be stricken by the courts, and I'm talking about perhaps the

53:58

Louisiana courts, or we can try to find something that moderates that such that maybe it is something that is enforceable by the state of Louisiana.

54:07

While I intend to vote for this bill, I would suggest that there may be better options that can actually go into practice instead of concepts that I feel like are probably going to be struck down, and I would rather see something happen other than just a vote for a bill that we agree with in concept, but probably recognize will not stand muster beyond the legislative process.

54:33

But again, I'll go back and say that House rules to the section to number 15 say specifically questions of constitutionality are left to the courts.

54:44

Thank you. Thank you. Representative McCormick, would you like to close on your bill?

54:52

Sure. I'd like to thank the committee and the chairman for hearing this bill. I know this is not an easy bill to hear.

54:57

I know it's it's lots of controversy, lots of heart -wrenching decisions. You know, you know,

55:04

I think the pro -life movement would see we've been waiting 50 years to to get to this point, and I just would like to move favorably at this point.

55:14

Okay, thank you. We have a motion by Representative Garofalo. Is there any objection to the motion to report

55:21

House Bill 813 favorably? Representative LaFleur has objected.

55:31

We will ask for a call of a vote. Representative Bacala?

55:42

Yes. Representative Bryant? Yes. Representative Fontenot? Yes. Representative Garofalo?

55:48

Yes. Representative Guto? Yes. Representative LaFleur? No. Representative Marcell?

55:55

Yes. Representative McCormick? Yes. Representative Hodges? Representative Muscarello?

56:01

Yes. Representative Nelson? Yes. Representative Seabaugh? Yes. Representative Villio?

56:08

Representative Marino? No. Seven yays, two nays. House Bill 813 will be reported favorably.

56:17

And we have Representative Jordan who is present.

56:24

We're trying. If y 'all could please exit as quickly and quietly as you can so we can get to our last bill.