September 6, 2022 Show with Dr. Joseph A. Pipa on “The Importance of Young Earth Creationism”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the

planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday

on the 6th day of September 2022.

I trust you all had a relaxing, refreshing, enjoyable, and

Christ -honoring Labor Day weekend.

And we are delighted to have back on the program one of my favorite

returning guests.

His name will be no stranger to our listeners who listen

regularly, because not only have I interviewed this brother a number of times, but you hear his

commercial every day, promoting a commentary series on the

Westminster Larger Catechism authored by Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III.

So you should not be unfamiliar with the name Dr. Joseph A. Piper,

who is an author of over one dozen books himself, and he is President

Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

Today we are addressing a very important theme that not only divides the body of Christ, but

even divides perhaps even especially Reformed Christians.

We are addressing the importance of Young Earth Creationism, which is actually

a qualification for anyone serving on the board or faculty for Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

And I believe, if I'm not wrong, it could be the only seminary in the nation

that does have that qualification, or at least one of a very few.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr. Joey Piper.

It's good to be with you.

I will say that Puritan would also have that same stance that we have.

Great. Puritan.

I don't know about others, but...

Great.

Puritan Reformed...

The Heidelberg Catechism up in...

Okay.

Well, I'm glad to hear.

And actually, after it came out of my mouth, I immediately thought of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand

Rapids, Michigan, founded by Dr. Joel Beeke, because I was almost certain that they would make that

a qualification as well.

Well, tell our listeners more about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South

Carolina.

Thank you, Chris.

The seminary was started by Dr. Morton Smith in 1987.

To have a...

And that would include high

views of worship, things like that.

I came to the seminary in 1998.

I've had the privilege of serving in that capacity until June

of 20.

And Jonathan Master has her and is just doing a remarkable

job.

We focus on preparing them for the ministry.

We teach everything at the seminary.

The curriculum is put together under that end.

And God continues to bless us.

As I hear of other schools having that lower even

during COVID.

And this year, we have over 30 new students.

Praise God.

And as we let our listeners know last time you were on, one of my

pastors, John Miller, is a graduate of Greenville Presbyterian.

That's right.

Even though he is a Reformed Baptist.

That's right.

And I'm sure he is delighted that you are on the program today.

He speaks extremely highly of you.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary,

go to gpts .edu.

G for Greenville, P for Presbyterian, T for Theological, S for Seminary

.edu.

And God willing, we'll be repeating that towards the end of the program.

Well, this is quite a controversial subject, and when I think about it, it shouldn't

be.

It shouldn't be a controversial subject, especially among those who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture

and those that would be confessional and conservative and Bible

-believing and Calvinistic and Reformed Christians.

But it sadly is.

And when I say that, I don't mean to disparage those that believe in an old

-earth position.

I have very close friends who believe in an old -earth position, who have even been on this program.

I only have people subscribing to an old -earth position on the show.

If they're speaking about that subject, to be involved in a give -and -take or a debate,

because I am a firm believer in a young -earth position.

But I have had men who subscribe to the old -earth position speak on other issues on

this program.

And some of them have been my friends for decades.

But at the same time, I think this is an extremely important issue, and I'm sure you do, too,

since, as you said, this seminary for which you are President

Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology has that restriction and

requirement that all members of the Board of Faculty have a young -earth position.

Perhaps you could define for us, it may seem like a no -brainer, it may seem obvious, but why don't you define for us what

young -earth creationism means.

Okay, Chris.

Young -earth creationism is an

account of how God created and in what order, and takes the

days of Genesis 1 to be normal days.

I say normal days because it's possible with the flood or whatever that the

whole universe, or at least our part of it, is in great upheaval, that perhaps at

normal days, that's what God wants us to think.

And depending on how one looks at the genealogies,

this would be the age of the earth.

Amen.

And can you give us some of, in summary form, some of the

views of those that would reject that description of what the Bible truly teaches about

creation?

Yeah, I

think all Reformed people pretty much took the

position that I just

put the claims, first of geology

and then of evolution, that with good intentions of hoping to

avoid any conflict between the inherency of Scripture and

what men assumed to be the facts of science, we began to see

a weakening of that.

It was one of the main places where

Warfield and Hodge, well Warfield not then, but Hodge, began to take the

position with respect to that, and called

the gap theory, and that is that between Genesis

1 -1 and 1 -2, there was a great upheaval,

perhaps the fall of the angels or whatever, so that what we have in Genesis 1 -2 is

the earth after that upheaval, and then a reforming of the earth.

That is exegetically untenable, and really all the positions

are, but it's probably the most in terms of those first two verses.

What became popular in evangelicalism and amongst the fundamentalists is what we

would call the day -age theory, and that is that the days themselves represent

long periods of time.

The notion that since it's exegetically sounder

in terms that does follow the order of Genesis 1, its chronology,

it doesn't work exegetically because the Hebrew word yom,

as it's used in Genesis chapter 1, the default meaning is either a

normal day or day in contrast to night.

And of course there are those that say, well, a day with God is a thousand years, a thousand years is a day,

but the analogy that the Bible makes there, both in Moses

and in Peter, would be completely invalid.

If you were saying a thousand -year day is like a thousand years.

No, the contrast there is between what we know of as a day, but in God's sight it is as nothing.

It's a thousand years.

I just challenge people that make this remark about yom to,

even a writer of Genesis

said it's impossible to understand that word in any other way.

And many men like Charles Hodge and Ritterbosch and others will say that

the normal reading, the natural reading of Genesis 1 would be an alteration.

This theory does not work in terms of trying to harmonize with the

claims of evolutionists because the order is different.

So we've had more recently

one called framework hypothesis, and that is

that what we have in Genesis 1 is a generalized framework

that simply has

kingdom and the kings or the environment and the inhabitants or whatever.

And so what we have then is order and then putting

things in the structure, telling us anything about

order.

They appeal to, and I'll probably get to this later, Genesis 2,

the secret of the generation, the Toledos,

and they want to say that that was a record of what it was like in

Genesis 1 and thus normal providence must be at work.

And that the language is highly poetic, but it really isn't highly poetic.

It uses all the oracle narrative.

Exegetically, so what we have had since then is what's called the analogical view.

And that is the view that, well, yeah, there's kind of an order here of six days,

so that God shows us how soon as they say there's

kind of an order, then they say there's days one and four actually are the same day.

I think all the views break down with respect to their, and

I'll probably come to that later, their exegetical approach.

I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us with a question for Dr. Joey Piper

of your own.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E

-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your

country of residence.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And the only way I could possibly conceive that would be the case is if you are a member of a

church whose position on the Old Earth versus Young

Earth controversy differs from your own, and you are perhaps

upset by it, you don't want to identify yourself at this point because you don't want to stir up a

controversy in your own congregation.

That kind of thing I could understand compelling you to remain anonymous.

But if it is just a general question about the Bible, about

what Reformed Christians have believed throughout the centuries historically, on this issue,

etc., please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

It seems to be that the most serious issue

that comes up when we are disagreeing with brothers over a Young

Earth versus Old Earth position is that, well, one of

these most serious issues is that you would have to believe in an Old Earth position

that death came prior to the fall of Adam and Eve.

And if you could pick up from there.

Yes, there are problems with that

position, and there's been any number of attempts to

defend that position,

some

saying

that it's being referred to.

So the evolutionary scheme is premised upon a geological scheme of

stratas of fossils, and so you would have that

scheme a good bit.

It's not just death even, it's violent death.

The fossil record is a record of violent death.

It does create a huge problem.

Genesis chapter 1.

Genesis 1 concludes by telling us that

God gave the plants of the earth, or

of men and animals, that death came in because of

the fall, and that is the death on the curse of creation, which Paul tells us that creation itself has

been subjected to futility because of

the fall.

The text of what the Bible really

says, that

death is a

pre -sent quotation

a while

ago.

Well, if you'd like to continue looking, let me repeat our email address for listeners who would like

to actually get in line to ask a question of Dr. Piper.

We already have some people waiting to have their questions asked and answered on air, but

our email address again is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s

-a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter regarding our subject

that compels you not to reveal your identity, such as your church being in disagreement with you

over this issue.

Perhaps you're even a pastor and your fellow elders disagree with you, or your denomination disagrees with you.

We would understand those reasons, but give us otherwise your first name, city and state, and

country of residence.

Have you found what you were looking for yet, brother?

No, that's okay.

You go against scripture when God says that death is the consequence of the fall,

and moreover, animal death, that the probationary

period from all evidence of Genesis 2 and 3 was not that long.

There still would not have been the possibility of this awful death

created such a

violent death.

In the fossil record, it's a consequence of a flood, that

does explain the record itself.

Now, in my conversations with my old earth friends, they

have used something that you just said as an argument to defend their own position.

They have said that what the scriptures are referring to

about death coming with the fall is specifically regarding the

sin of man, and therefore, the death of plants and animals prior to the fall

has nothing to do with the death that came from the fall.

How do you respond to that?

Yeah, I did find a great significance for the interpretation of the creation account is the

question of whether death is here understood in general, or whether it refers only to human death.

If death came into the world only with Adam, then all evolutionary reconstructions of the development of animals would be

excluded.

Obviously, without animal death, there is no animal evolution.

Furthermore, periods represented by fossils must occur after man's sin.

It is natural to connect Romans 5 .14 about death entering the world with the statement of Romans 8 .20

and 21 about the whole creation being subjected to futility.

Paul's reference here is obviously to the curse placed upon the ground in consequence of man's sin.

If we add this to the statement in Genesis 1 .30, that the plants are given to every animal as food, the

natural inference is that animals were originally vegetarian, and that animal death was also not present

before sin.

I think Noel answers that.

And moreover, when we see then what God does in Genesis 9, where now there is a real

conflict introduced in the animal world between man and animal, as well as now

the privilege of food, not that man didn't do that,

but interpretation,

in my opinion.

And you did say looser, not Luther, as in Martin Luther.

You said looser, am I correct?

Hello, brother?

I don't know.

I think you said looser, which would make perfect sense.

Just a little joke there.

We have Ted from Moundville, Alabama, who says, Chris, you made a

disclaimer in your introduction that I don't mean to disparage those who believe in an old

earth position, but it seems to me that many, many young earth creationists really

do disparage those who believe in old earth creation.

Specifically, it is not enough for some young earth creationists to reject the old earth

creationist position as incorrect and to state that the holder of that view is incorrect

on that particular issue.

Rather, they have to take a cheap shot at that believer's faith,

most often claiming that the old earth creation position is the result of

not taking the Bible seriously.

To wit, I'm wondering if your guest and you, Chris, would be willing to acknowledge that it

is not the case that all those who believe in old earth creation do so because they do not take

the Bible seriously, or at least as seriously as they should, or at the

very least, not as seriously as you do.

Well, first of all, I have friends that are...

I'll let Dr. Piper respond after I do, because you were talking about my

caveat in the beginning.

I have personal friends who are far more brilliant than I am, far more biblically

literate than I am, and I would never say that they hold their

old earth position because they don't take the Bible seriously.

But I can also say to you, just as the divisions between Calvinists and

Arminians and textus receptus onlyists and those that

believe in the older manuscripts of the Scripture, and we could go on and on with things

that divide the body of Christ, I have personally witnessed hatred

and ad hominem and mean -spiritedness and lack of Christ -like behavior on

both sides of these issues, and I have been actually astonished by some of the rhetoric

of old earth creationists that I have encountered.

I used to think that they were the picked -on guys, even though I disagreed with them.

I used to think that they were the picked -on guys by the young earth bullies, but that is hardly

the case that it is a one -way situation.

I have met and spoken with old earth folks who actually believe that young earth creationists

are guilty of young people going to hell because the

young earth position is so moronic in their minds that young people have

left the faith because we are not represented by brilliant

scientists as those who are evolutionists and old earth creationists are.

So this is not a one -way street.

But anyway, Dr. Piper, perhaps you could respond.

Well, when you began the program, I too have close friends

that take different approaches to Genesis chapter 1.

Actually, some of those friends who actually support Greenville Seminary know in our position, no, that's not the issue.

Again, it is a two -way street.

I've been accused of being a fundamentalist and all types of things because

of my exegesis on Genesis chapter 1.

So with any kind of controversy amongst brethren, we ought to stick to the arguments and not

throw out the ad hominem against them.

So I tell

the young man from Moundville that it's wrong to do so from

either direction, and we deal with each other as brothers, and God will

continue to give us insight into His Word.

Amen.

Well, thanks, Ted, in Moundville.

Let me also say that you can't be on our faculty,

but we have had people speak at our conferences that that's not a

litmus test.

If you're an expert in a particular area and we'd like to have you come and speak to us,

we've often done that.

In fact, Ian Hamilton says we're probably the most reformed ecumenical seminary he knows of in terms of the breath

that we use in our conferences.

Great.

Well, thank you, Ted, from Moundville, Alabama.

I hope that those answers satisfy you.

We're going to our first break right now, and again, if you'd like to join us with a question of your own and get in

line behind those that are waiting, our e -mail address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Joey Paipa right after these messages from our sponsors.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Paipa,.

President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian

Theological Seminary.

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We're back now with Dr. Joey Piper, and we are discussing the importance of young earth

creationism.

We have a listener who I believe is a first -time listener, Brenda in Greer, South Carolina.

She actually has a two -part question.

I'll read them one at a time.

It is helpful to use the topic of evolution as a segue to the Gospel.

Or actually, she asks that.

Is it helpful to use the topic of evolution as a segue to the Gospel?

I'll let you answer that first.

Who is

the creator of all things is a segue to the Gospel.

Because he is the creator, all people are responsible to him,

and because he is perfectly holy, and we're sinners, then we're under his

judgment.

Let me read some more of what she has to say.

She asks, How do you respond to a friend or a stranger who offhandedly

says, well, for millions of years, etc.?

I struggle with this, because I cannot honestly say all Bible -believing Christians understand the importance

of reading this part of God's Word literally, not figuratively.

I know there are godly men who believe otherwise, and even the PCA and OPC have

indicated in their reports that our other views are legitimate.

And before I ask her final question, I'll let you respond to that.

I think we have, in terms

of the Scripture's testimony, A, and then B, the absolute lack of

evidence, in fact, of evolution

as being a means of development of any species,

which even non -Christian scientists now are saying.

Yeah, recently.

Okay, okay, I'm sorry.

No, no, you go ahead, brother.

Go ahead, brother.

In God's testimony to himself in the Bible, what Paul says, for example,

there would have been people in Athens who

believed in evolution.

It's not something new.

A creator made from one, all mankind, and in him we live and move and have our

being.

Testimony.

God says he will do, if he's willing, then to the authority of Scripture at that point.

But I think probably Genesis 17 is a good place to go.

Yeah, it's interesting that, well, not surprising at all, that the far left

political assistant, consultant, and pundit James Carville just

very recently during an interview, mocked, and he was attaching this

to a typical Republican, mocked anyone who would dare to

deny evolution as a moron and an idiot and so on.

And it's interesting, has Mr. Carville come up with some new information that we haven't heard where

evolution, especially Darwinian evolution, is still called a theory?

Never been claimed by any scientist to have been 100 % proven?

Anyway, but let me go back to our listener's final question,

Brenda in Greer, South Carolina.

Do you think that even churches, I'm sorry, do you think that even in churches where the

leadership is united in holding a six -day creation, there is a reluctance to

emphasize it?

What should be done by these churches to address this deficiency?

I don't know, because of the backlash.

I think that we

deal with the sovereignty of God or his

creator

who made all things and nothing by the word of his power in six days.

I think every Reformed church should have a new members class

on the front end so people who come in don't have to believe it, but they

need to understand this is what we believe and we'll teach.

Same way in a Presbyterian church, we will gladly receive a

cradle Baptist into our membership as long as they understand this is what we believe, we're going to teach it, and they would

in no way seek to counter that.

And we'll continue to study that with us.

So it's not a litmus test for membership, but people need to know on the front end this is

what we believe and what we're going to preach, and if they

are comfortable being under that, even if they don't believe it, then they're welcome.

But we don't, if we talk about the consequences, we really, this is much more important

than merely an academic dispute over how one is going to look at

Genesis 1.

The consequences of the approach, I think, are quite

detrimental.

Thank you, Brenda, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you're a first -time questioner, and if that is the

case, you have won a free New American Standard Bible if you would like to provide for us

by an email, your full name and your full mailing address there in Greer,

South Carolina.

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be shipping a free New American Standard out to you,

compliments of the Lachman Foundation, who are a key sponsor of this program, and also

compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, who will actually be

physically shipping that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

Thank you very much.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, Do you know of any Old Earth

creationists who believe in the literal Genesis account of the creation of

Adam and Eve, or do they all believe in theistic evolution in regard to Adam and

Eve having evolved from lower life forms before being fully human?

By all means, take

Genesis 1, William James Craig will fall

into that,.

And I've watched.

A number of people frame work

go in that direction, but the great majority of the

Earth people I know still believe in a fiat creation,

but we want to be careful again not to paint with that broad brush.

There are those that have moved into, and even those that have moved into theistic evolution will often,

so there's a lot of

variations there with respect to that, so that's not a place for...

Thank you, Arnie, and we have time, before we go to our midway break, we have time for one last question.

How do you respond to Tim Keller's promotion of what appears to be

theistic evolution?

Tim Keller, a very well -known author and pastor of...

What's the question?

How do you respond to his promotion of theistic evolution?

As I've said, I've

began either... the framework hypothesis,

continued to go that direct, ended up in some

type of approach to theistic evolution.

I don't think that Dr. Keller would, again, deny the supernatural creation of Adam and

Eve, but he has, to some degree, joined forces with

Biologos.

What is the position of Biologos on that?

Biologos is basically committed to theistic evolution.

Yeah, I'm assuming that's why our listener assumes Dr. Keller was, or is, as well.

Well, he is.

I'm just saying, I know he does... a

number of years ago, I'm just saying, again, I'm not going to say, because he

hosts theistic evolution, that he is denying the supernatural creation of Adam and Eve.

I don't know where he is on that, but I would not accuse him of that at this point.

Now, is that something that...

It's interesting, Brenda's question mentioned how the PCA,

Presbyterian Church of America, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, reports allow these other positions

against any type of theistic evolution.

And so it's since that that we've seen, now, this further

development.

I think Bruce Walkie has gone this direction.

Yes, that saddened me greatly, because I remember seeing Bruce Walkie in the 80s preach

at the church where I was a member, on Long Island, and he was such a blessing, and I was heartbroken to

hear of this.

You're cutting out on me, Chris, for some reason.

Really?

Oh, I don't know why.

All right.

But I was just saying it was a tragedy to hear of Dr. Walkie's changed...

Well, it is.

It is.

So at least he and Tim Keller would be not as much in the Reformed world

that have gone that same direction.

All righty.

Well, we have to go.

To our midway break right now, and please be patient with us, because this is the longer, the normal break in the

middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer

break in the middle of the show, because the FCC requires of them to localize geographically all of their

programming, including ours, to Lake City, Florida.

They do that with their own public service announcements and other local things.

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Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you

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And also send in those questions to Dr. Joey Pipe at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

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We'll be right back.

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I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr. Joe

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Joseph Piper on the importance

of young Earth creationism.

And, we have a question for you, Dr. Piper, from Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania,

who says, I love your book The Lord's Day, and your booklet is The Lord's

Day for You, and I was wondering, isn't the Sabbath itself a

refutation of the Lord's Day of an old Earth creation?

Because you cannot possibly believe six of the seven days of the week may be

thousands or millions of years when the Sabbath is included in the description of those days,

which was obviously a sunrise to sunset day.

Actually, I believe the listener meant sunset to sunrise day.

But anyway, if you could.

Good.

Yes.

The ground to the Sabbath

reveals through Moses in Genesis Chapter 2

things to the Sabbath.

Now, the way the

non -literal people get around that is

say that we got the pattern of God's week, and so they'll say it that way, but

oftentimes what's happening is

because of that, we don't take it as a literal, and there's actually genetical reasons why it doesn't

conclude with it was evening and morning the seventh day.

That's actually a hooker as on a clasp on a train.

And it connects the days.

We come to the end.

We don't need that any longer.

The rest of the Bible treats the Sabbath as a day.

So what's happened then is you'll see one of the consequences of these

views is the weakening of a commitment to the Sabbath on people that, I'm not saying all of them,

but on some people who hold to the non -literal

interpretation of Genesis chapters one and then two.

Excellent.

Thank you, Susan Margaret, for an excellent question.

Before I take any more questions, I want to make sure that we don't get

entirely off track and miss things that you find most important about this subject.

So why don't you take a couple of minutes or more to bring up some of the things

that would compel you to believe this is a crucial issue.

Obviously, we're not discounting the salvation or the brotherhood of people who disagree, but it's still a crucial

issue nonetheless.

So, please, have some uninterrupted time.

First place, Scripture's premium on the supernatural sovereign character of God's creating work.

In the Institutes, Calvin writes, that we may apprehend with true faith what it profits us to know of God.

It is important for us to grasp first the history of the creation of the universe as it has been set forth briefly by

Moses and then as has been more fully illustrated by saintly men, especially

Basil and Ambrose.

The rest of Scripture appeals to creation.

God alone is God.

God is transcendent, infinite, sovereign.

He can be feared and worshipped.

It's the basis of self -revelation of God.

It's the fulfillment of God's word and it illustrates the nature of the new birth.

Second, and you alluded to this when we began the program, confessional integrity.

For those of us that would either hold to the Westminster Standards or the American

or English historic confessions that parallel the Westminster

Standards, confession teaches you anything

other than six normal days.

Now, some don't address the question as specifically, but there's been none to teach otherwise.

There are those that say when the confession of faith says that God created the space of six days,

that that was a very ambiguous statement.

Well, in fact, it's a statement coined first by Calvin and picked up by Archbishop Usher to posit

that there were six normal days of creation.

That's exactly what that phrase means in its use in other literature and where it came from.

There are many key doctrines in it.

The unity of the race from one man, the imputation of sin, Christ the covenant head, the nature of the flood,

covenant history, and the historicity of Genesis 1 through 11.

But ultimately, not that people do this consciously or self -consciously, but it

does employ the doctrine of the perspicuity,

the plain meaning of Scripture.

Amen.

And you read the Bible for yourself and not all things are equally clear.

But this chapter is very clear.

I had a special class one time and I gave an assignment.

Now go home next week, read Genesis 1 and come back and tell me what you think it says.

Even those who oppose

Genesis 1 without

prepossession or suspicion is almost bound to receive the impression that the author's intent

is to say that creation took place in six ordinary days.

But,.

We cannot stop here.

He's bound also to receive the impression that the earth was created first, afterwards the sun, moon, and stars.

Yes, by all means, that's exactly the impression that God wants us to have,

which I think is quite clear as how it describes Genesis 1, our life.

For example,

it uses the historical marker in Hebrew that is used for consecutive narrative.

It uses the word yom with days that are ordinal numbers, first, second, third,

and fourth.

When those are used in that way, they're to be taken in a chronological order.

I've already mentioned yom.

It's used in the rest of the Bible.

And then, this little phrase, evening and morning, is not talking about

beginning or end of day.

It's an idiom used by Moses in three other places to simply talk about nighttime.

And so, we have the daylight time of God's work, and then we have night, and that ends the first day.

So, there's many exegetical reasons to go with the...

It's arbitrary as well.

And the method is because Moses' writing style in chapters 2 and

3 is as figurative, if not more so, than chapter 1.

I mean, the description and creation of man and God's making man's clothing, talking

snake.

Why are not chapters 2 and 3 made non -literal?

In fact, some people now are doing that.

Or the flood account is given to us in the chronological narrative, again, with this use

of days.

So, why is Genesis 1 not taken in the same way?

Or the supernatural intervention in the plagues and crossing the Red Sea or the clothing of the

children of Israel not wearing out.

These are not matters of ordinary providence.

So, there's no exegetical breaks to the system.

And then it really does have other disastrous consequences.

I know people don't like the dominant theory.

We've already mentioned that some of these proponents now have moved into theistic

evolution.

Mr. Cuff reformed men.

Also, a man like Youngblood has gone that direction.

Animal deaths before the fall.

Now, we have people who hold this position actually saying that the flood...

We used to hear that the flood was not universal, that it destroyed all people.

Now, they're actually saying, well, the flood didn't even destroy all people.

Just people in that particular area.

So, all of these are logical consequences, I think, of this

method, this approach to Scripture.

It's an exegetical, arbitrary method.

Now, again, these men love the Word of God.

They don't deny inerrancy of Scripture.

I'm not accusing them of that in any way whatsoever.

But I'm simply saying that I've observed that a number of proponents in this type of...

And then, as the lady mentioned, the Sabbath.

There's been a great...

One more reason why there's been a great decline in a biblical Sabbath is coming out of

this approach to Genesis 1 -2.

Of course, now we're getting people who claim to be evangelical, like William James Craig, completely doing away with

any sound exegesis of Genesis 2 and the creation of man.

Wow.

Yes, I recognized that the apologists that

seem to more closely tie themselves with William Lane Craig are

Old Earther folks.

And, in fact, I've heard some of them...

I'm not going to say this about Dr. Craig because I haven't heard him say this, but some of them that have

appeared on stage with him and so on have mocked very cruelly as being ridiculous, our

views, of a young Earther.

But excellent summary.

Well, he does say in the book that when he started his so -called quest,

he was really hoping that it wouldn't lead to that because he could never hold to it.

Huh.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, To your

knowledge, historically, did any Christian, at least a Christian of note, who wrote anything

that is in print, believe in an Old Earth until those

that are enemies of Christ in the Scriptures first entered into that

proclamation because they believed that science trumped the Scriptures and

they believed that their science proved something contrary to a young Earth?

Well, we don't want to be ambiguous about that.

The people that responded to these claims did believe in inerrancy and

they were hoping to, in a sense, protect the Bible from accusations that it

had error because it contradicted either the claims of geologists or the later

claims of evolutionists.

Like Warfield, right?

Yeah, I can say that I don't know of anybody.

David Hall did a very good job of demonstrating, for example, the framers of the

Westminster Confession of Faith.

And more and more we learned their positions.

Every one of them was committed to a six -normal -day approach to creation.

There was a view that Augustine taught that because God is omnipotent He created in

a nanosecond and then Genesis 1 is to spell out for us the order

of what He did.

That was never a majority position in even the ancient

church.

And if I mention, that's why Calvin coined the phrase in space of six days to

argue against that.

I don't know if you can show me a Reformed writer

before the 19th century advocated a long,

non -literal approach to creation.

It was not normal.

It was in the ancient church as well.

I mean, Calvin mentions Basil and Ambrose because it's been asserted that

many of the old fathers held to a day age, but there's a long list of

quotations from the early church as well.

So, no, there maybe was somebody that exegetically came to that

position, but it was only after, because they'll talk about it

in their writings, people like Hodge,

they're trying to...

Thank you.

And I want to also give another plug to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service if you would like to

purchase the books that were mentioned by one of our questioners, The Lord's

Day by Joseph A. Piper and also the booklet Is the Lord's Day for

You? Cultivating Biblical Godliness also by Joseph A. Piper.

You can go to cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bb for

Bible Book, s for service .com, cvbbs .com.

Just out of curiosity, have you written anything specifically on the young earth position that

we can promote?

Or is there a book that you'd like to promote whether you wrote it or not?

On creation, we invited a number of Reformed people that would have these other

positions to make their presentation, and then we then responded with

people both scientifically but also exegetically.

That quick book is Dead God Creating, and that has

my more extensive reputation of framework

hypothesis.

I think that Doug Kelly has written a very good book.

I don't remember the title.

E .J. Young's Criticism Framework came

up in a couple things that Banner Truth published many years ago, Genesis 1 and

Genesis 1 -3, that also are very good.

We have Christopher from Amityville, Long Island, New York, my former

hometown of most of my life.

Christopher says, one thing that baffles me about why Christians would

even want to adopt an old earth position is that, to my knowledge,

it is absolutely impossible to prove anything is a million or more years

old even under the rigorous examination of geologists.

In fact, I know that paleontologists and geologists have made embarrassing blunders

trying to guess the dates of fossils and bones, sometimes saying that

they are millions of years old when they turn out to be hundreds or less years old.

Do you have any comment about that?

Yeah, a couple things.

One is carbon dating just cannot go back that far.

Everything has deteriorated.

On the basis of what

they're reading in Scripture,

they can give theories that are every time much more

logically sustainable than the theories

of the scientists who look at the same thing and posit.

None of us were there, so we take God's record.

But what we do have now, and there's been extra work done on this by a Christian geologist,

and that is Mount St. Helens.

What happened in a matter of weeks is what geologists claimed

on the ground.

And it's all now observable.

Even the trees that are horizontal and vertical in the water,

it's been quite phenomenal.

So here we have an example, a modern phenomenon that

we can examine and see that this kind of thing can happen

in a very brief period of time.

Which is why I think the original work, although it's been improved on by Whitcomb and Morris on flood

geology is so valid.

You read the account of Genesis 6 through 8 about the

flood.

This was not just water.

This was, as I mentioned earlier, cosmic upheaval.

It was geological upheaval.

The topsy -turvy, upside down.

So again, we've seen it happen even in less cataclysmic events

what things like that can do to geological formation.

And then we see something like Mount St. Helens.

Yeah, this is

on the inaccuracies, even trying to measure by strata.

Great.

We have another anonymous listener who says, I'm remaining anonymous because some of my very close

friends are old Earthers and we've already had heated disagreements over this.

I don't want to add to that heat by making my complaint public.

But my question to you is simply do you envision that a young Earth

position has a long future ahead of us seeing how it seems not

only do the secularists and Scripture haters vehemently and publicly

and with claims of science oppose our young Earth position, but the body of Christ

seems to be more and more infiltrated with the old

Earth position.

I mean, obviously you're not a prophet, but what's your...

No, what we're seeing in the culture though is now

the whole transgender

business, homosexual, all of these things,

what young people have been taught in school about

evolution 30

years ago, self -identifying

transgender movement is men's refusal to

submit to a creator God.

So yes.

And so we've already seen it in science

being

homosexual.

If we keep capitulating then it's only going to get worse.

We take loving but strong commands about creation, about

differences,

because I think we're going to see the Evangelical Church collapse on

these issues.

We'll become increasingly a minority.

Yeah, that is a shame, but of course for those of our listeners who are post -millennial,

post -millennialist, they may have...

I am.

There'll be a joy for many of our listeners to hear, because we do have quite a number of post -mill

and a -mill and pre -mill, but in fact we have Gary DeMar on the program tomorrow.

Oh, wonderful.

Yeah, he's a dear friend and he's going to be not only discussing an important issue, but he'll be promoting

a major conference on post -millennialism to take place in 2023 in Texas.

Very good.

Well, we're going to go to our final break, so I don't have to interrupt you mid -sentence.

This will be much briefer than the other breaks, and if you would like to make sure your question is

asked and answered on air, please send it in immediately, because we'll be out of time before you know it.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com, ChrisArnson at gmail .com, don't go away, we'll be.

Right

back.

James White of.

Alpha Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

are heading to Washington, D .C. for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking

About the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.

I'll be speaking along with Steven Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard

Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the Just Thinking Podcast.

To register, visit g3min .org that's g3min .org and click on Events.

Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.

So join me and Chris Arnson, September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C. for the G3

Ministries Regional Conference.

Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org that's g3min .org.

Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor Booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit but when it comes time to study God's Word in those

smaller settings, well let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the Word of God and is

built upon sound doctrine.

Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible.

Hi there, my name is Jordan Two and I am the Executive Director of the Baptist Publishing House.

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist Expositor and for good reason.

We are Baptist and we exegete the Scriptures.

If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the Word of God, I invite you go to our website,

download a free study baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you.

If you love Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuoco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches schools and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of Biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuoco

demonstrating the reliability of Scripture.

To advance the cause of the Gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the

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Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the

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You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's.

Historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm author Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Dan Lubenick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder

of the ministry Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the NASB

is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com to place your order.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love.

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church

in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King, and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation, and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's.

Hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696

-5711 631 -696

-5711.

631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711 631

-696 -5711.

631

-696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711

631 -696 -5711 through 8th as we Fight, Laugh and Feast to the Glory of God in

Knoxville, Tennessee.

You'll be enlightened, edified, encouraged and challenged by ten speakers on the theme Lies,

Propaganda, Storytelling and the Serrated Edge, covering various topics that address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Speakers include Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho, and the whole gang at the Cross

Politics Show and Podcast.

For details, visit flfnetwork .com.

That's F for Fight, L for Laugh, F for Feast, network .com.

See you there, October 6th through 8th in Knoxville, Tennessee.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good.

I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.

Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

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Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like

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blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a

Reformation study Bible I used as a gift.

The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather,

making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and

in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth.

Grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in

need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ

at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Attention all men in ministry leadership.

You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon

Thursday, September 22nd, 11am -2pm at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville,

Pennsylvania featuring me, James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker.

Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also

receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the United States

and the United Kingdom personally selected by Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership,

please register for the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by

calling 631 -291 -7002.

631 -291 -7002.

Or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com.

Ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, hoping to see you Thursday, September 22nd,

11am -2pm at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnzen's

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.

And if you haven't heard the additional exciting news attached to that

luncheon the following Saturday, Saturday, September 24th at 4pm, Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be debating Dr. Peter

Van Cleek of StandardSacredText .com on the

thesis, The Textus Receptus as the Word of God is equal to the New Testament

Autographs.

Dr. Peter Van Cleek will be defending that thesis and Dr. James R. White will be opposing

that thesis.

It is free of charge.

You all are welcome.

And for more details, you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com

or you can send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We have a listener, Cindy in Findlay, Ohio.

Hello Chris and Dr. Piper.

I have enjoyed watching the Is Genesis History series with Dale Tackett.

Does Dr. Piper have any comments regarding this series?

It came out and I thought it was excellent.

Great.

And do you know how anyone could watch this series?

I would imagine if you just went on Google and did it, you would

get it back up.

One day type things.

I think if you Google and typed it in that you could

get it.

Thank you, Cindy.

We have, let's see, I was just looking at another.

You mentioned books.

Let me mention from the science point of view that there's a number of organizations.

The one that's in Dallas, a PhD scientist

working in every sphere.

Great.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, I have been

confronted by a growing number of Christians who think that to disagree over

these areas and theological debates and other forms is unloving and

unbrotherly.

But for the life of me, I don't understand why they would say that as an absolute fact.

Obviously, any debate or disagreement can deteriorate into hate speech.

But when these differences can be conducted in an academic and brotherly and collegiate fashion,

I think they're extremely valuable.

I was wondering what you had to say about that.

Well, I would agree.

We've already addressed the issue of attacking people and

not question their integrity.

We need this kind of

biblical theological discussion.

They don't want to discuss any kind of doctrines that might be controversial.

And other times it comes from a position of weakness.

They don't want to be made to think about the holes that might be in their own position.

Thanks a lot, CJ.

Well, let's have a few more minutes where you have another opportunity of

uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

before the program goes off the air.

Oftentimes

a major theist

of a man who humbled himself under Scripture

did not hold to a normal -day chronological creation.

And he changed on that, wrote about that, and tabled it.

And so

these theories,

this is an area where anybody can read the Bible for himself.

Another thing that I've elected the Bible looks at

Genesis 1.

It's quite phenomenal.

Let me

give an overview of being able to go into the Bible.

In the first place, the Bible does immediate instantaneous

with God as

the author.

It is a record of supernatural work on God's part, and that word is used

throughout

Chapter 1 as well as other places in Scripture.

So the Bible treats creation as an immediate instantaneous supernatural act of God.

There's lots of references there.

It also has texts that lay emphasis on what is new, previously not present, that appear to be as productions of

creation.

It gives a number of other categories that I can't do now.

The Bible confirms the order of the days and the pattern of the six -day week.

We've already talked about Exodus 20.

Psalm 136, 5 -9.

Psalm 104 seems to reflect the order of creation.

The Bible takes its face value, the fiat and fulfillment nature of creation.

Psalm 33, 6 -9.

Christ uses the phrase from the beginning to refer to the time of institutions of marriage, which would take us back to

the beginning of creation.

I mentioned the uniqueness of the Hebrew word bara for create.

And then each day is explicitly referred to in Scripture.

You can just go to other places.

Day 1, 2 Corinthians 4, 6.

Day 2, Psalm 102, 25 and 26.

Day 3, separation of land and water.

Peter refers to that in 2 Peter 3, 5.

Vegetation, direct operation of the spirit necessary to renew the ground.

How much more to create?

Psalm 104, 30.

Job 38, 27.

Day 4, many places referred to as the heavenly bodies created by God.

Day 5, the birds and the fish.

Psalm 104 and Psalm 8.

Matthew 6, land animals.

Day 6, Genesis 2, 19.

Jeremiah 27, 5, man.

Psalm 8, 7 and so forth.

So you go straight through Scripture.

And every genre of biblical literature affirms a literal reading

of Genesis 1.

Historical, poetical, prophetic books, Gospels, Acts, Epistles, Revelation.

Quite an eye -opening exercise just to go through and look at the rest of the Bible.

The Genesis chapter 1, which is how we interpret Scripture, right?

Amen.

Well, folks, for more information about Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor,

South Carolina, go to gpts .edu, gpts .edu.

And how can our listeners find out more about your church plant that you are pastoring?

PA .com and their website.

Church had died.

Houses are being built all around it.

And Pastor Groff and I are working there.

We've gone from three couples and some children to now about

14 or 15 family units and 27 children.

Praise God.

And we've got to get you back on the program to even discuss more about the church.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

I want to obviously thank Dr. Joey Piper for doing such a magnificent job today.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.