Flame of Hope Benefit

I would like to welcome you all to Kongsvinger Lutheran Church and to our

Flame of Hope benefit. You'll note that the benefit tonight is to raise funds for the

Life Care Pregnancy Center there in Thief River Falls. And a little bit of a note, we're going to get started here into our main presentations.

But those of you who brought children, those of you who brought children, and they're looking like is this going to be boring?

How long are we going to be here? If this is their attitude, good news, we have coloring pages and stuff like that we brought up from our

Sunday school room. So if the kids are interested and they would like to keep busy with coloring pages or things like that, they are more than welcome to avail themselves of those over there.

So now a little bit of a note, there are several ways to support the Life Care Pregnancy Center.

And one is to make a donation by check to Kongsvinger Lutheran Church.

We're collecting up all the funds and then we're going to disperse them after a little bit of time.

Just the idea here, we want to give people opportunity to send those in. But you can also do this online and you'll note there's a

QR code here and you can pull your phone up, pull the QR code up, and then you can make a donation via PayPal.

That's also one of the options. Those of you who are joining us online, you'll see a QR code come up after Tessa's video and that you can use that QR code to go to make a donation.

Of course, you can always go to flameofhopebenefit .com and at the bottom of the page, there's a link that you can click to make a donation.

And so what we're basically trying to do here is undo some of the damage done by the state of Minnesota. But what

I would like to do now is introduce you to Tessa, I want to make sure I'm pronouncing your last name right.

Is it Biker? Tessa Biker. See, I think I said Beaker last time.

Isn't Beaker like one of the characters from like Star Trek 1? It's a whole other...

So Tessa Biker, and you're the acting director there. And so let me turn things over to you and you can give us a few words.

Hi, like he said, my name is Tessa. Thank you guys so much for coming out. I want to give a special shout out to Miles.

Miles, if you want to turn to the camera and wave. If it wasn't for you blabbing about us, this probably wouldn't have gotten the conversation started.

So huge thank you to you. Special thank you to everyone that put this on.

It's a huge honor that I get to be the ED right now. Yeah, I'm looking forward to any questions you guys have after the video.

I hope it's informative. I hope you guys learned something. Yeah, and like I said, after I'm looking forward to answering any questions you guys have.

So thank you so much. So my name is

Tessa Biker. I am the current executive director of the

Life Care Center of Thief River Falls. I am a previous client of the centers as just someone looking for education and material assistance with a first time child.

We are funded by donations, so monetary or gifts in kind, in addition to fundraising.

Are we funded by the state of Minnesota? No. We used to be from 2006 to July 2023, in which the state of Minnesota decided they no longer support pregnancy centers.

They completely diminished the positive alternatives grant that was funding our center.

They got rid of the grant, renamed it, and it's now being used to fund pro -choice centers such as Planned Parenthood.

How much money we lost by losing the grant was $140 ,000 a year.

Our center is now having to learn, adapt, and rework getting funding elsewhere as far as connecting with donors, closely finding community grants.

The funding was our main source of running, and with that being taken from us, we're starting from ground zero.

Our center serves six counties in northwest Minnesota. Those counties include

Pennington, Red Lake, Kitson, Polk, Marshall, and Roseau.

We serve men, women, children, and upcoming families growing through education, material assistance, support, group classes, options counseling.

The state of Minnesota and pro -choice centers don't educate on other two options.

They're primarily focused on the one. So pro -life is in addition to saving the baby, but also protecting and supporting the woman and emphasizing the importance of family.

In our previous facility, we encountered not only the loss of our grant, the positive alternatives grant.

Four days in between, we got hit with a flood that damaged all material items, including our ultrasound machine, all baby items, in addition to the structure itself.

As far as helping people in the community, we stress that we're going to help and support anyone and everyone, regardless of their age, gender, ethnicity, and religion.

Our goal is to look at the root causes as to why they are where they are and help them through that for a better future for either themselves or their upcoming children.

In 2023, our center has served 38 families, whether it's a single mother and an upcoming baby or a family of four.

If our communities lost our center, we would not only be losing the support our center provides upcoming parents, families, first -time mothers, young mothers.

They would be losing growth of those individuals and lose the support, education, and material assistance our center allows the six counties we serve.

Our center is more than just a pregnancy center. We're a resource center.

We're a community center. We emphasize community, and we emphasize support, and we emphasize education.

Anybody new to the area or who has never been to our center, stop in.

See what we're about. Learn, educate yourself, and make it even more aware that we're here.

Like I said, we serve six counties. We're in Thief River. So even if you are not pregnant, come to us.

And if I can't help you, I know who can and can get you there. So Tessa, you said that if there were any questions after the video, you would be available to answer them.

Well, come on up to the firing line then. Yeah. So as far as it doesn't matter what religion you are, we are

Christian -based. However, if we get a client that's not religious, that doesn't mean we're not going to help them.

Especially since we want to focus on what's going on currently with them in their lives.

Eventually, we'll get to spirituality, because that's very important. It's a way of gaining support is through God, but we don't start there, if that makes sense.

Potentially, I don't know necessarily if, not that we wouldn't want it, because that amount of money is really nice.

It allows us to help more people and get more help, but there's a lot of strings attached with that.

And having it in our minds that, when is it going to get ripped away from us again, is something we don't want to deal with.

This I feel like has been kind of a blessing in disguise. It's allowing us to connect those bridges in our community.

We're part of the community, and it's allowing us to act as a community.

So bridging gaps as far as through the food shelf, VIP, or violence intervention projects,

Salvation Army, St. Vincent de Paul, churches, it's allowing us to bridge those gaps that weren't there before.

So it really is a blessing in disguise. We just need to figure out how to sustain.

When I started, it was myself. So from October until about a month ago, and then

I found Shana. She has been a blessing in disguise, so it's just us two.

As far as active volunteers, we have none. We need some.

So if you guys want to volunteer, absolutely, I will find something for you to do. But yeah, it's just us two.

In the previous center, it was three staff because the center could afford it.

And with the lack of money coming in monthly, it's just us two. We work full -time hours, are paid part -time, and volunteer the rest of our hours to the center to sustain.

Yeah, absolutely.

So with that, we need a medical director. So that person has to be an MD and has to be able to read ultrasounds.

Without that medical director, we can't do anything medically. Right now, we provide self -administered pregnancy tests, which is basically anything you can buy in the store.

The only difference is we provide them free to our clients. We can't tell them the results on the package.

The instructions is very straightforward. If they read the wrong result, it's more, let's look at that again.

But we can't say if it's positive or negative. Eventually, I would like to be fully medical.

So we've got to get that medical director. Yeah, so one in Roseau, they are not medical either.

They are also not affiliated with Elevate Life.

So we're affiliated with Elevate Life, which provides us guidance as far as policies procedures, stuff like that.

The next closest would be Fergus Falls. And then there's more after that.

But Roseau and us, we're both not medical. The closest medical one would be in Fergus.

Yeah, yeah, so it's about two hours.

As far as miles, I don't know. But that's a two -hour drive.

Fergus is right around that two and a half. Shana and I actually had the privilege to go and visit that center just to see how they run, function, especially being two individuals fairly new in our roles.

I wanted to see what it looked like medically and how theirs ran in comparison to ours.

And they're amazing. Yeah, we did.

And then 2007, I believe, they stepped off as medical director.

They were working as volunteers and overall just got too busy in their main practice.

So we had an ultrasound as far as finding a medical director. This has been an issue in northern

Minnesota. Because MDs that work with, say, Stanford, they have it in their contract where they can't work outside their practice.

And being in rural Minnesota, I mean, that's kind of all we have. I spoke with private practice doctors.

A lot of them are stretched very thin. They're busy people.

And adding to that, I mean, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, yes, absolutely.

Right now we're doing very good. We used up the last of our grant to replace all of our baby items.

Our baby boutique is full. We'll always need diapers and wipes. That's something.

After a baby's born, a family gets weekly diapers and wipes from us just to help out.

Because having a baby is expensive. We do do emergency services so we can help the same family twice a year with anything they need.

Whether it's formula, diapers, wipes, there's no limit on it. But it's only twice a year in addition to our regular clients.

Yeah, yes, absolutely.

So not so much dressers, but cribs, car seats, strollers, pack and plays.

We do a safe sleep education class and that earns them a crib or a pack and play.

We do the Earn While You Learn program. So as long as they receive education through us, they receive baby bucks to spend in our boutique.

Our boutique has anything from, I mean, any baby item you can think of, we have it.

In addition to maternity clothes, postpartum items, so pain relievers, clothes, pads, spray, stool softeners, you name it, we have it.

And we provide each mother a kit after a baby's born. So a baby bundle, which is diapers, wipes, a baby blanket, a swaddle or receiving blanket, bibs, in addition to a postpartum kit.

So pads, spray, pain reliever, socks, a loofah, just some nice stuff to help a woman feel back to herself again is really important to us.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

If they're able to make the drive, yeah, exactly.

There is a very nice pregnancy center in Grand Forks.

That's probably the closest one to us. Yeah, they just have to make the drive.

There is no stipulation as far as where someone lives. Yep, absolutely, absolutely.

Anyone and everyone. And we provide education to families, parents who aren't even expecting, because I feel like parents are always learning.

There's always a better way. I myself am a parent, and I still do the education myself.

There's always room for improvement. Life skills, helping someone get a job, pay bills, cook.

We do all of that. Yeah, good.

Okay, yeah, good question.

No, but I found loopholes. No, because it's gotten so political.

People hear pro -life, it's political. People hear pro -choice, it's political. A lot of the teachers that know me are still teaching.

I graduated in 2018, so they have asked me to explain everything

I've went through in life. For example, my mom is an addict, wasn't a part of my life.

I was raised by my dad. I was also in a domestic violence relationship for over three and a half years.

Speaking on that, how I got through it and where I'm at now is where I bring in the pregnancy center, just to say, you know what?

This is where I'm at now. This is what the center provides, just to kind of wiggle it in there.

But it's a loophole, and they've been receptive to it. So I'm taking it.

If there's any other questions that come up, just holler, grab me or something. Ask.

I think we could give a round of applause to Tessa as well as Shana, and thank you for the work that you do.

Again, a reminder, you can make the checks payable at Kongsbinger, Luke's, and Church, or you can pay online via PayPal. Use the

QR code, and all of the proceeds, all of them, are going to support the Life Care Pregnancy Center there in Thief River Falls.

At this point, we're going to change things up. We're going to be inviting our invited guest here, and he's got an illustrious list of things that I have to talk about here.

So our special guest tonight goes by the name of Flame, and he's a

Grammy -nominated and stellar award -winning hip -hop artist. He is a well -versed leader in the

Christian hip -hop scene, with a growing list of accolades, including a Grammy nomination, multiple

Billboard chart toppers, and several Dove and Stellar Award nominations. He was born and raised in the inner city of St.

Louis, Missouri, and has released nine albums to date, including Captured in 2010,

The Sixth in 2012, Royal Flush in 2013, Forward in 2015,

Stellar Award -winning God Knows 2018, and under his own imprint, Flame's latest releases include three

EPs, Extra Gnos in 2020, Daybreak in 2020, and Christ for You in 2021.

So we've invited him to come and talk about his journey and the things he's doing in the world of Christian hip -hop and entertainment.

And then there will be a time for you to ask questions at the end of his presentation. And those of you online, those who are watching the live stream, if you have a question that you would like to ask

Flame, put it in the comments section of the YouTube video during the live stream, and we have somebody monitoring those questions so you have the opportunity to interact with Flame.

With that, brother, it's good to have you. Yes. Man, that list of accolades makes me sound good.

Thank you. All right, let's see. I'm going to navigate this really quickly.

But as mentioned, my name is Flame. That's my artist name. But my given name is

Marcus Gray, so that's what my parents named me. But I go by the name Flame because when

I first became a Christian, I was reading through my Bible, and I was just sort of drawn to the prophet

Jeremiah. And he pretty much had the responsibility of saying things that got him into a lot of trouble.

And he got to a point where he says, you know what, God? I'm not going to make mention of your name anymore. But then he says, but your word is like a fire shot up in my bones.

So just as a young Christian, I sort of, you know, resignated with that. And hence the name Flame. So that's my stage name.

So I'll give you a little sample of what I do on a regular. Now we at the

River Jordan. John the Baptist baptized Jesus. Then he brought him out the water. Father, Son, and the

Holy Spirit, all present, like how the creation started. Heaven's opened up.

Spirit descended like a dove. Then he came down and rested on him. This my son in whom I'm well pleased.

The Father speaks from heaven, put his blessing on him. This the lawgoss who met the standard of the law with no flaws.

He kept the standard. No commandment broke at all. Yet he was tempted on every hand and never choked at all.

The text reveals he did fulfill all righteousness. In fact, then he got this hill and blood got spilled in that sacrificial act.

Now he is the promise the Father has made us through prophets and priests to be our mediator. This baptism basically inaugurated to bring new beginnings, redeem his creation.

Now how we access what he earned back then? Historic objective for women and men.

With no exceptions, he died for our sin. Christ said, by faith, you get baptized in.

Amen. Amen. Yes. So that's what

I do. I travel the world and I do rap music. So does anybody know what rap stands for?

Quick trivia question. Rap. Rap. No guesses.

So basically, rap stands for rhythm and poetry. That's really all it is. And so I give the credit to my grandmother who is now with the

Lord. But I remember as a kid, I was always sneaking around the house listening to rap music.

And it wasn't like positive, clean rap music. It was vile, debased rap music.

And my grandmother abhorred it. She thought it was hideous. So she would catch me listening to this music and she would just be like, why are you listening to this trash?

And I'm like, I don't know. I love trash, grandmother. I don't know. Something's wrong with me. And so what she did was she saw this thing that I was drawn to that was most natural for me for some reason.

And rather than crushing that appetite in me, she sort of steered it and directed it. So she's like, why don't you take the music style that you like, which is rap, study your schoolwork, learn a material, write songs about the things you study.

And then when you go to school, you just say the song back and you have the answers in your head from writing the songs. And in that moment,

I said, genius. And that's when Flame was born. So I credit my grandmother for what

I call edutainment. So just sort of bringing those two things together. And so kudos to Frances Jones.

She's the genius behind what I do now as one of my vocations. But it's been interesting because as I grew up and I started to think about, man,

I want to continue to do the kind of rap that my grandmother introduced to me. But now that I'm a Christian at around 16 years old,

I took my faith a bit more seriously. So I thought at the time that I had to do Christian rap because the way my conscience was informed, the style of Christianity that I was exposed to taught us that if you really want to show

God you're serious about him, then you will do the more spiritual thing. So rather than just rapping about good things or beautiful things or true things, you have to rap about spiritual things,

Bible things to show God that you're really excited about him more than worldly things.

So I became a Christian rap artist. I was introduced to it. It was funny. Some ministry got all the addresses in the particular neighborhood

I grew up in and they sent out a cassette tape. It was two white guys. It was a group called the

Firefighters. And kids, close your ears. The song was called

God Made Sex. And as a seven -year -old, I'm listening to the song like, this is creepy. Like, why are we talking about this?

And so I took the cassette tape and I set it outside so it can melt in the sun. I thought I would do God a solid by destroying this material.

But as I grew up and I started to take my faith more seriously, I said, man, is that Christian rap thing still around?

And I found that it was. So it was a group by the name of Cross Movement. They were older guys. And they really sort of took us under their wing and helped us understand how to use rap music in a responsible way, but to incorporate our faith into it.

So that was important for me. But with this sort of appetite for doing things for God, it became a bit more complex.

So for example, I remember at my local church, my pastor, he made a statement. It was just kind of showing off his sort of piety, his sort of seriousness about God.

He made a statement one day, he says, you know what? Sometimes when I have to use the restroom,

I just hold it to show my flesh who's in control.

I'm like, OK, that's weird. But I'm kind of sizing him up.

So I'm like, OK, he's about a 60 -year -old man. I'm 16, so I'm a one -up the pastor.

I said, the next time I have to use the restroom, I'm not even going to use the restroom at all to show my flesh who's in control.

And obviously, biology had its way, and I failed miserably. But that was sort of the model for me.

And I remember even in high school, it was sort of that style of Christianity where you have to express this zeal for God.

So I'm sitting in my classroom in high school, and we're kind of talking about job readiness. So my teacher is giving a talk about how to prepare for a job interview, how to fold an envelope, how to conduct yourself and dress in an interview.

So I'm a relatively young Christian. I'm sitting in class, and I'm kind of boiling inside, right?

I'm flame. So I'm just kind of boiling inside. I'm thinking to myself, this is not important. The most important things in life are concerning the kingdom of God.

So I'm thinking this. I'm just molding over my head. So what I did was I get up out of my desk, and I actually stand on top of the desk.

And I said, what the teacher is saying is not important. I said, the most important thing is when you die, are you going to heaven or to hell?

To which my teacher said, I don't know about that, but you're going to the principal's office.

So he literally sends me to the principal. The principal just happened to be a Christian. So he's like, listen, flame,

I get it. You love Jesus. I love Jesus. We're loved by Jesus. Amen. He says, but it's okay if you sit in class and learn the lesson.

To which I responded, you're not serious about the things of God. And he's like, what do I do with this guy?

So that was sort of my appetite and sort of the energy that I felt that was sort of being modeled for me in terms of what it meant to be a

Christian. And I saw all the guys that I looked up to were all zealous and fiery like this.

And even the group cross movement, the kind of older guys who were like, you know, mentors, they first exposed me to this new way of understanding

Christianity, which some may call the reform theology or Calvinism. And at the time,

I remember having a chance to meet them and then go on tour with them. And they asked me the question, they said, are you a

Calvinist or are you an Arminian? To which I responded, I've never heard of either of those gangs.

I'm not a Crip. I'm not a blood. I'm neutral. I am neutral. I don't want any problems with those guys.

And they're like, no, no, no, no. So they're trying to reel me back in. Then they get sort of walk me through this church history space where these kind of things were discussed.

So I sort of gathered that I needed to pick a side and they only gave me those two options. So I'm thinking either

Calvinist or Arminian. So at the time, I was in more of what you may call the charismatic church, where they talked a lot about sort of these exaggerated expressions of piety and wanting to earn

God's favor through, you know, loud emotions and, you know, that kind of thing. And then the church also moved into being more like a prosperity driven church.

So we talked a lot about your finances and giving to God to earn favor or to keep favor.

So you give money to God. He might bless you with the job you're looking for. He might bless you with the spouse that you're secretly yearning for.

So you give God praise, you give God your finances, and perhaps God will give you the thing that you're thirsty for.

So cross movement kind of broke into that space in my life and introduced me to this reformational style thinking.

And as I'm sort of, you know, learning it, eventually my mind starts to bend as I'm made aware of these new ideas.

And one of the new ideas was this notion that Jesus did not die for everyone without exception, which was a new concept for me.

I had never heard that idea before. So as I'm trying to wrap my mind around it, like, what do you mean Jesus did not die for everyone?

That's like basic Christianity. And they're like, no, that's what we've been taught. We've been deceived. So they're sort of couching it in this language of deception.

And then they also couched it in this language of sort of like a special love where God is, he's chosen you out of all of these people.

You can be dad's favorite kind of thing. So, you know, just kind of growing up in the inner city and just having like already this sort of, you know, sort of filter over the way

I see the world, that kind of language started to scratch that itch to feel special, to feel unique.

So the concept started to work its way into my heart, although it felt awkward and strange, but I did want to be one of God's elect.

So that idea was introduced to me. And then the second idea was introduced to me, which was, it was argued that God, in fact, created some people for judgment.

He created some people just to demonstrate his anger and his wrath. Right. So now

I'm learning this new version of Christianity, and I'm going deeper into the style of theology.

But it was tricky because I'm seeing all of the guys that I looked up to as a young Christian, they think this way. A lot of people that do this kind of thinking and rapping are having a lot of success.

So we're traveling the world and they're making a huge impact overseas. So it seems like this is a good thing.

This is a good space. And they're very serious about the Bible. So they're always at least taking you back to the book to see a reasoning or a stream of thought that can lead up to this kind of conclusion.

So it was kind of tricky in that way. And I'm thinking, well, I mean, they did show me this in a Bible. They did show me that in a

Bible. So for 18 years, I found myself in this space. And it was relatively a happy space.

Good things happen there. But over time, as I started to notice, man, I don't know if I'm sort of moving up the ladder towards heaven the way it's been positioned and pitched to me that after X amount of years, you should be at this level of Christianity.

After X amount of days, you should be over this. And now these spiritual heights you should be soaring in.

So as I started to look at my own self and I started to see, I don't know, God, maybe

I'm not one of the elect. Maybe you didn't really save me. Maybe I'm one of the ones who created for your judgment.

And that insecurity started to really bear down on my heart, on my thinking. And I got to the point where I was like, man,

God, I don't know if I can still be a Christian. This is very confusing. And the only way

I can know that I'm one of the ones who actually died for is if my life demonstrates the level of piety that impresses you, the level of seriousness about my faith that signals to you, look at me,

God. I'm flourishing. I'm dying to my sin. I have accountability. I'm showing up regularly to church.

I'm sharing my faith with as many people as I can. But I always felt like I was still falling short of some standard.

And that type of insecurity began to sort of grip my heart. And I got to a point where I was like, man, Lord, I believe you're real.

I believe you exist. But if this is the type of son that you're looking for,

I don't know if I could be a good son. So in that sort of weakness, I was really prepared to leave the faith.

I was prepared to leave Christianity. And as I was sort of trying to gear up for that and try to process life without Christ, it was the most devastating thing.

But right in that sort of funk, I get this random phone call from a close friend of mine.

And he was at a reform seminary in California. And one of his

Baptist professors told him, he says, hey, if you're thinking about continuing your education, your theological education, you should do it in St.

Louis at this school called Concordia. Don't go to the Calvinistic school.

Go to the Lutheran one. So my friend James calls me and he conveys this message.

He's like, man, you should check out this school called Concordia in St. Louis. I'm like, OK, that's an interesting name.

I'll check it out. So I contacted the school. I scheduled some time to tour the campus.

The date comes around. I get on campus. I see this like super swaggy Germanic style architecture.

And I'm thinking like, OK, I like this. This would be a good place to learn. So I'm touring with one of the professors.

His name is Dr. Bodie. The whole time I'm talking his head off about John Calvin. I'm like,

John Calvin, he saved Christianity. John Calvin is the full expression of what

Martin Luther was trying to do. And Dr. Bodie is just kind of humoring me like, oh, my God, will this guy shut up about John Calvin?

But he never said it, but I could see it in his eyes now that I look back. But he was very patient, very kind. And so once I was really convinced, like, man,

I want to study at this institution. He was like, that's good. I like your zeal. But we need your money. And you need to test into the program.

I was like, OK, cool. So then I order all of these books. And now I'm reading through things to try to get a better sense of this institution.

So I'm working through the material. Then I find out, man, OK, so I'm reading about justification.

I'm like, that sounds like Paul. Paul says that we are justified by faith alone. I say amen to that.

And then I start to read more about things like the sacraments. And I get to this portion about baptism.

And then it says this strange thing that baptism now saves you, to which

I just kind of grab my Bible. And I'm thinking, like, am I reading this upside down? Or surely this is heresy, right?

This is false teaching. And so I'm sort of afraid now. I'm thinking, like, man, this is some type of a cult.

I don't want to be deceived. But I was thinking, well, at least I can test into the institution.

And I can change it to a Calvinistic institution. This school needs me.

This school needs me. So then I'm thinking, like, well, let me get in this program as fast as I could. So I test in.

I get into the program. And now I'm in class. And I think the class was like Luther in Mind.

That was the name of the class. And it was a guy named Dr. Okamoto who was teaching with another professor named Dr. Maxwell.

So they're talking about theology and justification. And they get to this section where Luther's talking about a theologian of glory versus a theologian of the cross, right?

And at the time, as a good Calvinist, Calvinism is all about God's glory, right? Doing things for God's glory.

So on this quiz, I'm thinking, like, this is an easy A. One of the questions was, who's the good guy or the bad guy?

The theologian of glory or the theologian of the cross? And I'm thinking, as a good Calvinist, of course it's the theologian of glory.

So I put it on my test. Obviously, I get it wrong and a bunch of other stuff wrong. And that's when I realized, like, man,

OK, there are some things different. I thought John Calvin and Luther are pretty much like the same guy, just with different faces.

So I said, man, let me just sort of sit and soak. And that's what I did. I just I sat in class.

I came to school every day. I would literally record every lecture with my cell phone on a voice memos.

And I would, like, pretty much transcribe everything my professors would say. So I was so locked in.

And when I would leave class, I would get in a car and I would play each lecture again. So I would take the entire day over again on a ride home.

Then I would get home and I would continue to listen to the lecture. So I became obsessed with trying to understand the differences between the

Lutheran Reformation, this Calvinistic Reformation, but not in a just a nerdy way to be a brain on a stick.

Because you remember, I'm going into this environment with this weakness in my heart. I'm ready to leave

Christianity. So they're talking about things that are very relevant, things that are pertaining to how to be made right with God, how to know that you're right with God as you're sort of struggling along the way.

So as I'm sitting in class and I'm learning more about this justification doctrine, which is something that I thought was at least

I can get the good from this Lutheran institution sort of eat the meat, throw away the bones, as they say.

And as I'm sitting in and I'm learning better, I said, man, Lord, these guys are good.

They're taking me to the Bible as well. So that's when I realized, man, so it's not just about finding things in the

Bible. You have to find things in the Bible in their context. You have to find things in the

Bible as they are accurately represented according to their actual meaning.

So as I'm sort of comparing and contrasting these things, now I'm seeing the distinctions.

And I started to hear teachings like baptism and the Lord's Supper as other layers of grace that solve this sort of dilemma within my heart.

Because again, I'm thinking I'm doing all these things for God. And the way my mind is wired, like I'm a rule keeper.

So if I was to park somewhere and it was like a sign that says don't park here. And I was like, man, I just need to run in for one minute.

I'm probably not going to park there. Because if I do, my conscience is going to be wrecking me the entire time. I'm like,

I got to get back to the parking spot. So by nature, I'm just a rule keeper. And what the charismatic church did for me was it sort of took that innocence and kind of skewed it.

And I remember, just to give you another kind of funny story, I remember thinking, okay, God, you've given me this sort of wiring.

Now, how do I use it for your good? So I'm taking you back a little bit. So really big at the time was knowing how to hear

God's voice from the outside, right? So you want to hear what God has to say, like specific instructions.

Like I was sharing with my friends earlier, I know someone who literally prays to God every day and asks God, what should

I wear? What color pants? What color shirt? Because I want to be in your perfect wheel. Not in your permissive wheel, but your perfect wheel.

So that was kind of my lifestyle, just sort of wanting these very specific answers from God. So I was attempting to do

Bible study. And I asked God, I said, Lord, will you let me open up in the Bible to the passage you want me to read?

So I closed my eyes and I'm just saying a prayer. I'm like, thank you, God. I want to hear from you. And then I heard this voice in my head that said, turn to Mark chapter 17, my son.

I said, amen. Thank you, Lord. So I grabbed my Bible. Matthew, Mark, chapter 1, chapter 6, chapter 12, chapter 16.

And that's the end of the book. There is no Mark chapter 17. So I'm like, why are you playing with me,

God? I took my Bible and I threw it in the closet. And I was so frustrated because I thought

I had gotten good with hearing God's voice and sort of discerning it from the outside. But when

I moved into the Lutheran institution, they helped me understand that what God is doing for us is not this thing that's happening on the inside in terms of where we look for some sense of assurance.

Where we should look is outside of us to what Christ has accomplished.

And I heard this Latin phrase for the first time, extranos. So anytime you hear flame from now on moving forward, you're going to hear this phrase extranos, which just means outside of us.

So they really helped, you know, direct me out of my own insides or my own mind or my own piety or my own wiring to do good, because it's really not that good if you examine it up against God's perfection.

So it took my eyes out from looking so deep within to what Jesus has accomplished for us.

And as I started to accept that concept and I just, I began to weep physically and I began to cry and just thank

God that he sort of reset my focus on Jesus Christ as opposed to my own good deeds, my own good efforts.

And it was this beautiful thing that happened where I remember one of my professors talked about, you know, Luther's obsession wasn't with crushing

Rome or the Pope. His sort of thing was, as he was reading through Matthew 4, where Jesus says that, he says to repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luther says he's reading through the book of Romans and particularly Romans 7, and there's this internal war between the flesh and the spirit.

And he's interpreting Scripture with Scripture, which is the right thing to do. And he's learning better the

Greek language. And he says, ah, Jesus is saying that the entire life is one of repentance.

So as we're constantly living on this side of things, we're going to always need to be returning to Christ, right?

As the law is confronting us and it's exposing our frailty, our weaknesses, our unbelief is sort of crushing us underneath that weight, that shame, that guilt, and that prepares the way for the gospel.

And the gospel comes in and announces to us forgiveness and confronts us with what

Jesus has done for us, then that's the pattern. And as I understood what

Luther was fighting for, and I saw that that's why I was struggling, I said, this is the gospel.

This is the message that God has belabored to deliver to his created people for our own comfort, the own comfort of our own consciences.

So that way, as we're living in this world, struggling along the way, we're not going out into the world to prove to God how holy we are.

We're actually going out into the world to do good to those around us because God doesn't need anything from us.

In fact, I love, what is this, Psalm 50, verse 12, where God says, he says, if I were hungry,

I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine.

And I love that passage because it reminds us that God, he's like, I don't have any needs, first of all. I have no emptiness, no void.

I'm completely satisfied within myself. But if I did have a longing for Chick -fil -A, why would I tell you?

I would just make some Chick -fil -A. You would never know. But the beauty of that is

God is, he's all sufficient. He doesn't need our holiness or our righteousness as if he's empty and we're filling him up.

What he does is he gives us an opportunity to move out into the world in all of the varying stations that we find ourselves in.

This is what I'm processing it now. And all these things, I'm like, wow. So God has made me a son, a friend, an employer, an employee in all of these different spaces.

When I look down at my shoes and see where I am, I am to do good right in that spot to those people around me for their sake, not to send these good deeds back up to heaven, hoping that God is catching them.

And as these concepts began to sort of rest on my heart during my time at Concordia Seminary, and I remember

I graduated and one of my professors, Dr. Bierman, he asked me, he's like, are you a Lutheran yet? And I was like,

I don't know. I don't know. Maybe so. But what I wanted to do was I wanted to take just some time off to work through the scriptures and work through the ideas outside of the academic environment because I'm like,

I've been given the best answers from some of the brightest minds. So I want to sort of exit that environment and test it.

So I just want to live with it. So for about a year, I just sort of worked through these things on my own, talking to some of my trusted pastor friends and lay leaders, and I would ask them these questions.

I'm like, okay, so if I go to 1 Peter 3, 20 and 21, like it physically literally says baptism, which corresponds to this talking about the days of Noah when

Noah and the eight were saved through the water. It says baptism, which corresponds to that physical saving now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for good conscience.

So I'm asking my friends, like, what does this mean? Like, I don't know.

It doesn't mean that, though, what you think it means. And then I start going to all of my favorite commentaries, like the

R .C. Sproul commentary, the John McArthur commentary, and I noticed they would always skip that verse.

Like, there was nothing there for it. It'd be like, see page 105, and there is no page 105. And I'm like, why won't people confront these texts?

And so that was telling for me. I was like, but I was struggling because I didn't understand how

God could use something like baptism, because in my mind, the way

I was informed was baptism is an outward sign of an inward change.

So in the way I was taught, the way most people are, you know, sort of taught in generic American Christianity or just sort of like generic

Western Christianity, we're taught that baptism is something we do to show God we're serious this time or for the first time.

Maybe you're hitting reset because you went off to college and wasted some life, and now you're back. So you want to get baptized, or you want to get re -baptized.

That's kind of the way it works. And so I'm thinking, well, if baptism is my outward sign, how can

Peter mean by that, that it saves? But what they had to help me understand was you have the concept flipped upside down, because baptism is not your work.

Baptism is God's work. He's doing the verbs. He's the one that's actually drowning you and raising you to newness of life.

He's using physical means like he's always done. A tree of life, a temple,

Moses erects a iron rod, right, or the staff, put the snake on it, people see it and are healed.

Jesus spits and dirt, makes mud, applies it to a person's eyes, they get healed. You start to see it everywhere that God is cool with his creation.

And if he wants to use it as a means to do spiritual things, that's just okay, because God deemed it okay.

So as I started to let my mind again, become, you know, sort of rewired, and I'm detoxing from this popular way of understanding baptism that's actually not in a

Bible, I'm finding in it gospel. So I'm like, man, God has really fought to give us comfort and peace.

The thing I've been searching for within myself, he's actually already thought steps ahead of me. And then

I asked my friends questions about the Lord's Supper. I'm like, man, so Jesus did say, he says, this is my body, this is my blood.

And then my friends say, well, is means represents. I'm like, but it says is. How does is mean represent?

Like is means is in every language. It just does. So one of my friends was like, no, it's like, if you say, if I, you know, like in slang, like I may say, man, this shirt is fire, right?

Meaning like this shirt is nice. So one of my friends kind of used it as an analogy. He's like, that's just like if I said, man, this shirt is fire.

I'm like, yeah, but what would change in that sentence would be fire, not is. This shirt is fire.

If you mean by fire, a nice shirt, but is is not the thing that changes in a sentence.

He's like, yes, it is. I'm like, well, you just said is, I'm confused. Does it mean yes, it represents?

So yes, it is. So over time, I'm starting to see that it's just this sort of gap in how we've been taught to understand these things.

And we've been stripped of good news. We've been stripped of this hope that God has really delivered to us through these beautiful means of grace.

So as I began to sort of over that year's time to lean into actually what the Bible says, then

I found that rest, the restoration, and just this newfound vigor to go out into the world to really help people walk through these things.

And I feel like God has just allowed me to collect the people who are on the edge. They've been crushed and hurt in their consciences.

Or maybe they were looking for something from God and didn't find it because they offered to him their holiness and they didn't get the return.

They offered to him purity and didn't get the husband or the wife. And now they're disappointed by God.

And they're saying, what happened? And I'm like, well, that's because we've really bought into a lot of ideas that God never delivered.

He never promised. And so let's walk backwards and sort of celebrate what he did deliver, what he did promise, and find hope in that and all these other things we can manage and maintain as we serve one another as neighbors.

So that's really what God has done for me over time. So yeah, just in closing, I've just really been enjoying putting these kind of things in music.

So I released a project titled Extra Notes, which unpacks these things. And then Christ for You Followed, which is the

Lord's Supper. And then Word and Water, which is about baptism. I did flip it.

Instead of water and word, I put word and water because I knew my friends would need to hear word first.

Because if they hear water first, they're going to get freaked out. So I'm like, it's about the word. There's no power in the water. There's no power in bread and wine.

It's the word of God that enlivens these things. And it's just this mystery that we can't quite understand with our limited capacity.

But Jesus said that we say amen. It's really that simple. So the music articulates that and just a host of other things that I've sort of been able to collect and put together, like online courses talking about these things.

We host a festival now. It's called the Extra Notes Fest in St. Louis, my hometown. So we just gather a bunch of artists and we talk about this kind of stuff.

And so it's made for a lot of great dialogue. It's very interesting to see a lot of my friends who are seminary presidents, seminary professors, very smart, brilliant men and women who will contact me like Nicodemus in the night because they may be very influential in the

Anglican Church or the reformed Southern Baptist Church. And they're like, man, Flayn, this is actually kind of interesting.

This is really good. Can we kind of meet and talk about this off the record? So it's been very right.

But I understand because you don't want to go kamikaze and just destroy your life. People have bills to pay.

So I respect the slow process, but I'm encouraged to see that many people are becoming more honest with this sort of insecurity within themselves.

They're examining their own fruit. And sometimes it looks fresh. Other times it looks rotten. And I would say that confessional thought in ancient

Christianity as preserved through Lutheran thought has really kept these complex things together and preserved them.

And the tension therein in a beautiful way so people who are struggling and stuck can wrestle with them with a peace, with a sense of joy and assurance, even as they're struggling their way through.

So I'm finding that it's not that people are inherently turned off by it. It may be underexposed or they can't track it, even though they hear it, have to hear it again and again and again before you can start to ask good questions.

Because at first you're thinking it's a cult like me. And so it takes time. So I'm thankful for that.

So really, that's my story. But I'm going to shut up now and kind of open up the floor and let you guys ask me any questions.

That'll be fun. No calculus questions, please. I have zero answers for you.

What about algebra? They will not be the best answers. For reference, for reference, this is a sad story.

My math teacher taught us that it's better to cheat than repeat. So now you see where I'm coming from.

So no calculus questions, please. That's a bad lesson, kids.

It's not true. It's not true at all. But anyway, so yeah.

Any pressing questions? Not everybody at once. Yes. Yeah, that's a great question.

Why do people hear the grace of God that saves and sort of shy away from it?

It does feel like a threat. I think I don't think there's much in the world that demonstrates grace.

I think most things in the world demonstrate law. So if I want a good grade in school, I better earn it and work hard for it.

If I want the wage or I want to get paid from my job, my career, I got to work hard for my check.

So I think the natural course of life just makes us think and function by way of the law.

So when we hear that Jesus actually accomplished the law for us, it feels awkward.

It feels weird. It feels strange. That would be probably one thing. And then the second thing I would say, I think it's just this the old

Adam in us, to use Luther's language, or just this energy inside of the human being that wants to earn and show

God how good we can be. I think it's rewarding in that way. So it feels good to offer

God something and to have dad say, good job. You killed that. Great job. And we want that from him.

But when God says to us that painting that you worked hard on, yeah, it's actually like that of a filthy rag.

I think it sounds offensive. Like, how could you say that about my best contribution, God? And so we sort of war with our

Lord because we don't trust in his words. So that's why God has to soften our hearts and help us understand the truth, which is

Jesus did accomplish it for you. Just lay hold of it, you know. So I think it's just, and even as a

Christian, it's still a difficult thing to lean into, especially when you are growing in your faith and God's doing cool things through your efforts.

You may start to lean in on your good works again and start to think, man,

God, I'm really growing in my faith. Look at me. And to have to realize all over again that that's good.

It's good. You know, piety is good. Doing good works, it's a good thing. Don't stop doing that. Don't start robbing banks.

Keep doing good. Paul says in Ephesians 4, let the thief no longer steal, but rather get a job so he can give to everyone in need.

So those things are good, but they don't earn us salvation. So we always have to be trusting and hearing

God's word. So yeah, faith comes by hearing. So it's like that repetition. But yeah, good question, though.

Yeah, thank you for asking that. Thank you for asking that. Yeah. Anybody else? Any rappers in the room?

We got any rappers that want to come out tonight? Expose yourself. Oh, wifey taps his hand.

Might you be a rapper? Yes. That's really good.

I've actually never thought about that. But that's a new way I can serve neighbor. Obviously, before,

I would print CDs. But I think the last time I took a CD to a concert, a kid came up to me and was like, oh, this is cool.

What is this? I was like, wow, I think the Lord's flagging my ship in.

He's like, bring it in, son. But that's a good point, though. I think, and in fact, my digital distribution company has been sending out articles as of late to remind the artists that we should still print

CDs and vinyl. I have some vinyl over there, too. But so, yeah, that's a good reason to do it.

So I have to bring that back. But yeah, haven't done it as of late. I'm kind of spoiled now because it's a lot cheaper to just upload a

WAV file to print everything. But it's a good way to serve neighbors. So that's really my heart.

So yeah, thanks for asking that. Yeah, that'll be good. I'm definitely going to do that. Yes. Oh, yeah.

They pursued YouTube education. No, I would say 100%. I would say, yeah, a lot of my friends and people that I've done music with over the years and even artists that are upcoming, we all sort of hit that pocket where we would confuse about the nature of Christianity, the origins of Christianity.

What is this thing? And so depending on what walk of life you were in, you probably landed in a different space.

So for example, a lot of my friends during, say, like the social unrest, like the whole

Mike Brown stuff, right? It was just crazy. And I remember at the time, it was a religious sect called the

Hebrew Israelites. So these people sort of, I mean, they've always been there. Even as a kid,

I remember them being in my neighborhood. But they sort of rose to popularity, right? So a lot of Christian artists started to hear their articulation of the

Bible and Christianity. And they started to buy into it. So the concept is pretty much that the

African American, the black American is the true Hebrew of the Bible, which is actually kind of funny because I have one of my white homies.

He has friends that teach that the white man is the true Hebrew of the Bible. And then a lot of my black friends are saying they're the true

Hebrew people of the Bible. And I'm like, well, let's go to Paul who says he was a Hebrew of Hebrews. And let's read what he says he does with his

Hebrewness. I said, if this is our ancestor, let's see what he says.

He said, I counted all his dung for the sake of knowing Christ. So, but anyway, I think it did.

It's kind of back to the question my friend asked here. So the people that sort of leaned into the Hebrew Israelite thought, it was this sort of concept of being

God's favorite again. You can be one of, you could be God's chosen people, right? And then they are taught that it's through the law that God is going to heal the black man.

So as the black man starts to become morally upright and starts to figure out how to bring his community back together, that God would hear our voices and heal the land kind of thing.

So again, the gospel should cut through that because I'm like, do you really think you're going to pull that off?

Like you really think you're going to get to a moral capacity where God's going to say, wow, you guys are really killing it.

I'm going to heal the black community. I said, it's not going to happen, bro. So Jesus Christ will always be the only one who can actually fulfill the law.

Who is the true Israel of God? That's what Paul says at the end of Galatians. He kind of drives it home for anybody that wants to lift up Israel over Jesus.

He's like, well, Jesus is the true Israel and let's just end that right here.

So you kind of got to take people back to Jesus. And if they don't want Jesus, then they don't want to be a

Christian. So I think you're right in that people landed in different places. And I'm praying for them because, you know,

I'm cracking jokes, but my heart does break. I understand the confusion. I understand looking out into the world and you don't see the kind of church that you romanticize in your mind and you think, well,

God must not be here. He must not be real. So I do pray for them.

And, you know, I think God is sort of restoring people back now that deconstruction isn't as cool anymore.

It's kind of losing its cool. So people are ready to have healthy dialogue, you know, so that's a good thing.

Once the cool factor is gone, we can kind of get to the meat of the thing. So I'm happy about that.

But yeah, that's good. It's an insightful question. Yes. I think someone over here had a question. I'll come back to you.

Yes. Ah, might ordination be in my future?

You know what? I'm open to it. I'm open to it. It's something I haven't really thought deeply about. The sort of version of Christianity I came up in, your calling is like, if you're called to be a pastor, you're going to have some kind of dramatic experience and you're going to sense it from the outside.

You're going to be out, I don't know, driving a car and God's going to drop down something from heaven and your tire's going to get a flat and then somebody's going to randomly show up and fix it for you.

And that's the sign that you're supposed to be a pastor. So I haven't had that kind of thing, you know.

But moving into the Lutheran space, I did find this healthy exercise where not only do people sense from within some sense of being drawn to the pastorate, but also people from outside can say,

I think you would be good for that. So I'm open to it. But at this point, I have enjoyed the freedom of moving around as an artist.

And so that's really cool. But I am starting a PhD program this fall. So that'll be fun.

What God would do with it. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Bless you. Bless you. So I'm excited about that.

What God would do with it. I think I have, you know, some kind of scope for what that would look like.

But if I would have to flip that into another style of degree to become a pastor, I would do that. I can see myself doing that.

Yeah. So I solicit your prayers if, yeah, thank you. Yes, my friend.

All right, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Okay, turn up.

Give me the easy one first so I can build my confidence up. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It is a defense. True. Yeah, good question.

Yeah, that would be a little narcissistic of you. I saw

I saw transparent moment. I actually don't listen to a lot of music because for me, it's kind of like going to work on your day off.

So that's why I don't really listen to a lot of music. But when I do, yeah, probably

I do like the group cross movement, the guys that sort of mentor me and maybe a newer artist would be a guy named

KB. He's super talented. So I really enjoy his music. But yeah, and then honestly,

I mean, that sounds kind of narcissistic, but I do listen to a lot of my own music because nobody in Christian rap, at least at this point, is talking about ancient

Christianity or confessional thought. And so even when I listen to the best of the best of Christian rap, it still feels a little wonky, you know, still asking me to prove to God my sincerity by going on a missions trip and help build a house in some rural part of the world and show these poor people how good

God is, you know, and I'm just like, I don't really feel called to move to a different country right now. And I don't want to feel bad for that.

So I don't want to listen to your song. So I just don't

I don't want to hear the song about it. So it just gets a little weird. But yeah, so but I do have an entire collection of music that I never release that I just write and play back.

So I have like exclusive Marcus Gray songs that I enjoy. So yeah, that's the fun part about being an artist.

I can make my own song and play it, that kind of thing. All right, question number two. All right, let's go.

You got the education, the communication, the musicality, all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ooh, you know what? Someone else has asked me that question. I think

I might have to at some point. I've been having some fun back and forth with people related to that topic.

And so I think that would be cool. One, I would want to talk about how to talk about it. Because yeah,

I have not gonna say attacked, but I have had some people that have been pretty aggressive, especially on social media.

And I'm just like, I mean, we could be friends, like, can we at least be friends and have like a healthy exchange, we don't have to be mean.

So that would be one of the concepts in a project. And then I would probably want to present an argument for both sides.

And then I would just show people where I would land. So that would be cool. But I am releasing a project this

June, where the concept is, so I'm walking people through sort of the origins of Christianity.

So I'm gonna spend a little time with the patristics. And then I'm gonna show them sort of where pietism came in.

And then when Christianity came to the Americas, sort of the version of Christianity that we inherited.

So I want to walk people through that journey and help them understand why we process our faith the way we do, at least in generic

American Christianity, and how that's impacted us in ways we may not know. So that project is done.

It's underway right now. So I'm super excited about that. I actually went to, I know I'm excited. I went to Concordia Seminary and I sat down with a couple of professors,

Dr. Bode, Dr. Sanchez, Dr. Bierman. And we've already done like interviews and behind the scenes content talking about that topic.

So their genius will be on a project as well. And then I'll release the visuals to just take people more into this thing.

I think that's going to be fun too. So yeah, good things on the way. Yes. Thanks for asking that, bro. Yes. Yes, I am he.

Woo, started a music studio. Compared to all eternity, you're looking really great, my friend.

Yes, yes. So basically starting a studio,

I would say one, try to find that community of people that could actually pay for that studio time.

So you want to kind of collect that data because if you build a studio where it's not needed, then you just got a cool studio.

So you want to find where to build. And then two, just learning like industry standard business stuff on pricing, kind of standard prices for recording, mixing, mastering, all that kind of stuff.

Another thing that might be cool to offer with that is production.

So if you have a studio where people can come record, but if you also have producers like in -house producers where you can submit songs to the artist, then you can sort of double the income.

So you're offering them a quality music. They can potentially purchase the song or lease the song from you.

And now you're offering more than just space, but like a product that you can get a royalty off of as well.

So kind of like cool things like that to diversify what you're offering as the studio. Because most people have a home studio, they record on some

USB mic and then AI can make it sound great. So to get in people's space to show the usefulness of a studio outside of your own home, maybe have other things that can attract people like, but I can also get a great song at a great price, ready to go.

I just add my part and that's good. Artists will love that. Trust me, they will love that. So no, well, we got around to it.

We got around to it. Yeah, yeah. So that'll be a good thing because artists are always looking for good help, you know?

So that'll be a good thing. Do you produce or you know someone that produces? Ah, yes.

Do you make beats or you play instruments? All the above? Oh, yeah, that's fire.

That's fire. Yeah, I mean, that kind of thing, producing. And if you could put a chorus or a hook on a song, that'll make it even better because the artist just has to write the verses and then you get writer's share of that song.

So you get a percentage off of that song every time it's sold. You already know how it go. But that could be a good way to do it too.

So yeah, I love that. Okay, I'm going to swing back. Let me get my friend here. Ooh, my go -to, honestly, is always, well, it varies in terms of the scenario.

But one of the things is honesty and transparency. It always works.

Because what they're thinking is, as soon as they feel me turning a corner in some religious way,

I can just see in their faces, it's kind of like, oh, my God. But if I sort of come in with some type of weakness or some type of vulnerable thing, then

I get their humanity back. And they say, oh, man, this is like a regular person. And then

I sort of walk them through how I'm processing that weakness in relationship to a creator.

And so I found that to be very helpful. Because people hide a lot of stuff.

And they don't have a lot of people to trust either. Which is another thing I found to be helpful was the concept of confession and absolution.

So for me, I remember one of my professors saying, I wish more people would exercise it in a Lutheran space.

And I was like, you know, I don't know anything about that. Who does and who doesn't? But just hearing it at face value, a culture where you can safely expose your own sin and not be crushed by another person or to be condemned by them.

Like a culture where you can do that and have a person hear you out and to absolve you.

And if you need more counsel to walk with you through a thing, that was something that was, my goodness,

I wanted a part of that ASAP. And so I started to do it. I go in there and bear my shame and leave out feeling helped and healed.

So I think that transparency is helpful across the board. And so I'm saying the same thing over and over.

But yeah, transparency and honesty, I think is good. Does that make sense? Is that okay? Yeah, thank you for asking that.

My guy. Yeah, it's a lot.

It's a lot, man. I think one, Calvinists hear Lutheran thought as a threat to God's glory, which is interesting because Calvin would probably agree a little more with us than a lot of the contemporary

Calvinists, at least the Reformed Baptist version. But I think for the most part, they hear us talk about the word of God and sacraments in a way that competes with God's glory.

Because I think we're saying we're contributing to our own salvation and we're not saying that.

I think they also fear that we're promoting lawlessness because, you know, the

Reformed are going to be really big on you got to affirm that you're saved by bearing fruit.

And you need to be bearing more and more fruit, especially if you start reading those Puritans. And, you know, the

Jonathan Edwards and Owens and all those guys were great at making you feel like trash. So that becomes a cool factor within the

Calvinistic space. The more you can boast about how trash you are, the better you're sort of esteemed.

So when you start talking about grace and assurance, they feel like it's a threat to good works and that kind of thing.

So that's going to be a hard challenge. And obviously, the fact that Jesus died for all is going to be complicated for them to wrap their minds around because they really want to feel like God's favorite.

And then I would say lastly, the hardest thing is just the social component. Meaning like a lot of people are more committed to their friendships or their grandparents that handed them

Calvinism. So they feel like they're betraying the family culture. So that's going to be very tricky.

And then they feel like particularly I think of people that think I've left

Christianity, like they consider me an apostate. So, you know, friendships are broken because they feel like, well, until you repent, flame,

I can't fellowship with you. So that kind of thing can be taxing emotionally. So yeah, those are some of the challenges.

But I think in God's kindness, he's helping this conversation to become more common.

Like I just got off a month's tour, the month of April. And I mean, we talked about this stuff like back and forth.

A lot of the upcoming artists are willing to have the conversation. Like I said, a lot of people are contacting me.

And so the conversation is being had, and I'm thankful for that. And my thing is ultimately,

I believe Jesus wants to unify his church. I mean, that's what he says in John 17, right?

He says, Lord, he says, make them one as you and I are one. So I think his end game is that we will be one, but we have to talk to each other.

So you got to get rid of that sort of fear factor of, oh, you're Lutheran, danger, danger.

You know, and it's like, relax, bro. Like your version of Christianity is the new one. So yeah.

But anyway, did I answer your question? I feel like I was just rambling, but it felt good, though. I thought,

OK, yes. Yeah, that was big for me.

Because in terms of like the deconstruction thing, so the idea was that Christianity is the white man's religion.

That's what everybody was saying a couple of years ago. And it was like, people trying to figure out, is this true? So while I'm at the seminary, one of the things

I, man, I love Luther. Man, I want to get Luther's face tattooed on my skin somewhere. It's not idolatry, but it's just appreciation.

But no, one of the things that I value was that for him, it was important to hold on to the church fathers and to show

I'm not inventing something new. There's this through line between what I'm arguing for and what's always been argued for.

So for me, that was cool to discover because I didn't know many of the guys were African or North African Christians.

So to sort of hear that, and it kind of scratched my itching ears in terms of existing as a human in brown skin,

I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. So when I started to see that God used a lot of, and not only North Africans, but God used

North African Christians also to sort of nurture Christianity in its infant stages was really cool.

And it sort of dignified blackness, African -ness in a way that's kind of like it's not even a big deal where God's not really bent out of shape over color and ethnicity.

It's just all kind of cool to him. So for me, that was like important. And then once I was able to sort of sink my teeth into it, and I could take that back to my friends who were like,

Christianity was invented in 325 at Nicaea. And I'm like, that's not true at all.

You know, that kind of thing. So it was really helpful to show them that before colonialism or colonization,

Christianity has always existed. In fact, it's been, you know, in the East and in Africa and in Europe and all over the world before it got to this space, doing cool things long before we got a hold of it and people abused it in other ways.

So that was a strong argument that you can't ignore that. And so that's been super helpful.

And I'm thankful for Luther sort of really just exposing me to that. And yeah, to help expand on the sacraments, the word of God, and how we ought to apply those things today, how they're useful, even in terms of just identity.

You know, I think about the fact that we are the baptized. You know, even that was just like, man, there's this way to think about myself in this sort of visible way where I can think about my own baptism where God did something supernatural.

That's who I am. I am in Christ. I'm his. And yeah, so that conversation is you got to contend with that.

You have to contend with that. And a lot of my friends that are sort of reconstructing, that's my challenge to them.

Because so they'll hear that, and then they'll just start to celebrate the blackness, right?

So Christianity had blackface before. And I'm like, that's cool to talk about.

But what's even cooler to talk about is what they thought, what they wrote about, what they said from the scriptures.

So don't just borrow the clout of their skin complexion without caring about what they actually said and what they actually fought to preserve.

Because that's where the treasure is. It's in that, not in the skin complexion thing. So that's been a really helpful thing to help people slow down and say, if you're going to reconstruct, don't destroy

Christianity and then rebuild with the rubble that you found in the first place.

Rebuild it with the right stuff. Because you're going to end back up in the same crises the next time the culture goes through something that throws us off track.

So if you're going to reconstruct, do it based on the word of God and church history that affirms the word of God.

So that's been a real, I think, helpful part of the conversation that I'm hoping to continue to introduce.

So yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I love that. Yes. We good?

Online, let's do it. Let's do it. Beautiful.

Yes. Ooh. Stranger things have happened.

Stranger things have happened. But it would be cool if I got you on a song, maybe doing like a voiceover or get an audio soundbite of some of your genius.

Yeah, that's a way to do it. Yeah, there's plenty. There's plenty. Yes. Yes.

My music is available wherever music is streamed. Are those humans there?

So wherever music is streamed, you can find it there, Spotify, Apple Music, the like. You can also go to extranoseacademy .com.

You'll find music, merchandise, the online courses, all those things are there. So yeah, tap in.

Yep. I haven't spoken with NF in a while.

But yeah, he's a good guy. We did a song called Start Over. That's what they're referring to. So the song, it just went viral.

It's one of my largest songs. I still perform it to this day. But I haven't spoken to him in a little minute. He's very busy now.

He's one of the biggest rappers in the world. So yeah, when I first met him, I crack a joke. I say he was lowercase

NF. Now he's capital NF. So yeah, you can just send me a direct message on Instagram.

Yeah, hit me up there at flame314 and you can send me a message. I don't have my messages open.

So I have to clear them. So I'll scour through and I'll respond. Yep. Well, one, you're going to find regular people.

You're going to find Christians. These regular people have Bibles and they like to sing.

They smile. They're friendly. What you're probably going to be lost with or through, like I was, is just following the style of service, what we call liturgy.

So I remember my first time I was in a divine service and they were singing through this book called a hymnal.

And I was trying to follow along and the words kept skipping. So I was reading this way.

Then they would jump down to like the other part. Then they would jump down again. And I don't know what page they were on.

And I was like, just kind of humming along. And so I was freaking out.

So you'll get some of that stuff. So some of it will be funny. But yeah, just take it in. I think it's beautiful.

You'll come in. You'll hear confession of absolution from the gates. So you're going to get gospel at the front,

Bible reading, more word from God. You're going to hear the preach word, more word from God. Then you're going to hear singing, more word from God.

Then you're going to hear the words of institution, the zenith, the peak of liturgy where Christ bodily is in a bread and wine.

And he's forgiven sin. He's given us life. He's uniting us as a family with one another. And those all across the world, those in heaven, the heavenly host, it's a beautiful thing.

Come observe. Talk to the pastor afterwards, too. Because they like to camp out at the back of the church. I noticed that.

I don't know how they just kind of like, it's like stealth mode. They just kind of appear in the back of the church after the sermon.

And you can talk to them. So they make themselves available. If you want to set up a time to chat and know more about the thinking, the theology, most of the times they're happy to talk.

At least schedule some time. So do that. Get comfortable. You'll love it like I did. Yes. That's it.

That was fun. Yes. Okay.

Let me see. You mean in terms of like contemporary versus like traditional?

Oh, I don't know if I know all those. You know what?

I don't know if I've been exposed to that level. Because at my local church, it's like a contemporary style with sprinkles of some of those pieces.

So I sound like I'm missing out. What am I missing out on? What is? Yeah, please. Is there something on YouTube I can see?

Like, okay. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to tap in. Yeah. I'm going to tell my pastor he's been holding back.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Let me see. So I do. Yes. I do have one on the current project that's coming up. And I think

I want to make that a theme. So I'm going to try to keep that going and do these different renditions. So yeah, that'll be fun.

So if you have recommendations, anybody has good recommendations or hymns you want me to flip, just send it to my social media.

You could tell me or write something down. I could, you know, keep it in my pocket. So I want to make that a theme. Like, that'd be super cool.

Maybe even turn it into a project. So yeah, I like that. I like that. Yes, my friend. Oh, well,

I actually have been a guest. It was myself and my friend Lex Luthoran.

Yeah, we both featured on the show. It was hilarious, by the way. So you check out the episode on YouTube. It was fun.

It was fun. Yes. All hearts and minds clear. No, that was fun.

Thank you guys for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Thank you, Flame. That was amazing. That was absolutely fun. So just a reminder that the reason why we've gathered, the reason why we've invited

Flame and had this evening is that tonight, this is a benefit for the Life Care Pregnancy Center of Thief River Falls.

And this is a worthy beneficiary of your support. And the work that they do has a profound impact on the lives of human beings.

And so please support them. If you haven't already, you can make a check payable to Kongsbinger Lutheran Church.

It is tax deductible. Or you can donate on our PayPal account. Those of you online, again, it is flameofhopebenefit .com.