Nouthetic Counseling Pitfalls

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and what's going on around here? Pouring rain outside, and I feel guilty, not because of the rain, but because I just ate one half.

I would have ate the rest, but there's only one half here. One half of something to the equivalent of a salted nut bar.

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The Tuesday Guide to Steve, Josh, you can just write those folks. Don't forget, coming up soon is the new book,

Sexual Fidelity, No Compromise, and it's the first NoCo Media book.

It's about 150 pages. I'm guessing around 12, 13 bucks, something like that, and approximately 1 ,000 word chapters, one chapter you can read a day, to get you to think properly with a biblical perspective about the topic of sex.

I'm not trying to be funny now, or anything like that, or uncouth. It's not some kind of manual or something like that.

It's not how to. It's how to think rightly about sex, and how to avoid sexual lust and temptation, and then if you're married, and join your wife.

It uses biblical language, but that's it. Anyway, I didn't want to go into the ...

I'm 55 now, I should be able to talk in a godly way without any kind of gut or mouth, or anything like that.

I think you'll find it, well, it's written in a NoCo style, in the sense that I'm trying to prod you, and make you think through issues, whether it's pornography, or how to talk to your children about sex, or what about adultery, and Proverbs 7.

So it's biblical. It's provocative in the sense that it makes you think. I have to kind of have a little disclaimer there in that NoCo slogan, and it's in that order.

So you can order through NoCo Media, and the website should be up soon, and just click on it, and be good for men's groups, ladies can read it as well, and I think

I'll print a couple thousand and see what happens. So that's a scoop there, I'm excited about it. A few years ago,

I had turned it into a large Christian publisher, and it made it to the editing table, the conference, the roundabout deal, and then it didn't make it.

So anyway, there you have it. I'd like to talk today about counseling.

What about counseling? Do you like counseling? Would you like to go to counseling? Are you in counseling?

Do you counsel other people? There are psychological counseling people, there are folks that counsel with the

Bible, and there are those that mix the two. They integrate psychology and the

Bible. And I am for the last one, that is, no, the second one, no, the first one?

What am I for? If you don't know who you're for, you don't know who you're against. I'm obviously for biblical counseling.

I think psychology, out of the 300 different types and veins of psychology, pretty much all have the view that man is good or man is better than what the

Bible states regarding Adam's fall and the consequential sinful nature that everyone inherits, of course, except for the

Lord Jesus. And when you try to mix oil and water, it doesn't work, same thing with the

Bible. I'm not one of these guys that says, let's take some of these truths and see what we can do.

Obviously, if psychology means we analyze behavior and routines and patterns, then those things

I'm not going to disagree with Pavlovian salvation in dogs and hoons.

But I am going to say you can't change the behavior into godly behavior using anything less than the

Bible. If the behaviors changed, well, the common grace of God would influence people and they can,

I mean, I quit cocaine and marijuana without the Holy Spirit in terms of, in dwelling me directly,

I'm sure he was helping me as my mind was getting clear so I could understand the gospel better and the implications of it.

But I want to talk about, there's some different stripes of biblical counseling. Not all biblical counseling is the same.

And if I had to say, you know, do I like the, what's termed, newthetic counseling? Newse is mind, and so using your mind to admonish is one of the words in 1

Thessalonians 5. I would say that much of the theology in newthetic counseling

I would agree with. And so if I got to pick one, that's the one I would pick, biblical counseling. Of course

I would pick that. And there are some benefits of newthetic counseling. I would say, what are some of the benefits?

Well, number one, I think it understands drugs and how to use drugs.

If you should use drugs, at least that's the right question to ask. Should we use drugs in treatment, right?

What is a mental illness? Can your brain have an illness that's different than your mind having an illness?

Is there a difference between brain and mind? Can your mind that's tainted by the fall, supposed to be used by God, used by us to worship

God, loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength? I think it rightly understands chemical imbalances.

It's just this catch -all term that even many unbelievers would say.

Well, what do you have to try to balance out when you give lithium to people? What's that balancing? What – how does that balance?

What poison does that balance out? So I like the way newthetic counseling thinks through that.

I think that's a benefit. Secondly, I think newthetic counseling exposes man -centered humanistic psychology for what it is and how it doesn't sanctify the saints.

When I was in Vienna, I went to Freud's house, and whether it's a

Freudian psychology or anything else, as a matter of fact, he came here to the United States, Freud did, after he flew – was fleeing

Vienna because of the Nazis, and he spoke here in Worcester, right? Spoke in Worcester, Clark University of all places,

Zygmunt Freud. So smoked 20 cigars a day, and basically his face was getting eaten away toward the end.

I don't think he quit though. So I like newthetic counseling because it has a bead, aim small, miss small.

It goes after psychological counseling and the quote -unquote science of psychology.

How can it be a science if it keeps changing all the time? That's what I'd like to know. It shows that psychological tests are basically worthless.

Again, when it comes to changing behavior, analyzing behavior, that's one thing. Changing behavior, that's another.

Newthetic counseling is wonderful when it drives people back to the text.

What does the text say? The Bible is sufficient, sola scriptura. I think newthetic counseling excels in that area.

What else is it good for? Well, back in the day, remember Larry Crabb? Newthetic counseling would expel integrationists like Larry Crabb.

He's not really one of us when it comes to the counseling realm. There's psychological counseling. There's biblical counseling.

And when you mix the two, these integrationists, as we might call them, we know what you're doing.

And we don't agree. And probably the last thing, well, second to last thing, it emphasizes dealing with sin as sin.

And it emphasizes forgiveness and hope, right? You can be forgiven for sin.

Every sin is forgivable short of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which you can't commit now on earth.

At least, I don't think you can. I mean, if you die in any sin, you're going to hell. But die in sin, meaning not forgiven, not justified, you're condemned then, of course.

That's the opposite of justification. And there's a sin that leads to death, and you're not to pray for that. But you can find out what that is in context in 1

John, and that's the repeated over and over and over, Jesus isn't God in the flesh. Maybe you think it's something else.

Well, that's for another show. You can get on the troll Facebook and debate it all you want.

Sometimes I pop in and make comments on Facebook. Most times I don't. People are crabby.

I especially don't. People send in money. I especially do. Fred, just kidding.

And it says, euthetic counseling, that you should focus on hope. You should focus on hope. If we do things

God's way, there's hope, right? There's hope for the future, right? And so there's many things.

I'm sure there are other things too, but those are a few things that I like about euthetic counseling. But there are a few things that I don't like about euthetic counseling.

And the dislike that I have for euthetic counseling that I'm going to mention now is nothing to the degree where I dislike integrationist or psychological counseling.

So if somebody comes to the church and says, I'm big into euthetic counseling, I'm pretty much happy that that would be the case, that they've studied.

But there's a few things that over time we might have to tweak here or there or the other, right?

So what about the preaching of God's word? Bill Goode said, unless the issues of sin are seriously and properly dealt with in counseling, is the context.

The preaching from the pulpit is merely a band -aid solution. Now, see, that's the kind of stuff

I don't really like. I think if you talk to him and you work through it, it would be closer to where we would both be and all that stuff.

But I think that language is tough to swallow because the proclamation of truth from the pulpit pretty much is everything.

Now, should there be some discipleship behind the scenes and pastoral ministry behind the scenes?

I'm not saying there shouldn't. I'm just saying you shouldn't talk this way about preaching from the pulpit as a band -aid solution for anything.

If there was no counseling, nobody trained in euthetic counseling, no discipleship, the word of God would still do what the word of God does.

And I just would agree more with John MacArthur. The word of God always accomplishes its intended purposes.

Then he quotes Isaiah 55, 11. So shall my word be which goes forth from my mouth.

It shall not return to be empty without accomplishing what I desire and without succeeding in the matter for which

I sent it. MacArthur also says the greatest need in the church today and therefore the greatest need in the world today is biblical, powerful preaching.

In recent years, I feel that preaching has been minimized. It has been given a backseat to counseling, administration, programming, entertainment, and so forth.

On the same tape, you can tell this was older when

I did this research, MacArthur quoted Lloyd -Jones regarding the substitution of the word of God by counseling, which was, of course, in that case, psychological counseling, but the primacy of the word of God.

I think here's what happens often. I think pastors begin to counsel people and if they're going to meet with seven people during the week at an hour at a time for 15 weeks in duration each, pretty soon that starts taking away your day besides the emergencies that would come up and brush fires and forest fires that would come up just in life, in his own life and in the life of the people in the church.

Then you cut back some of the preaching because you're doing a lot of preaching one -on -one.

Now, I think preaching one -on -one is important. But one of my problems with newthetic counseling, and of course, there are some newthetic counselors that don't do this, but just this is a potential trap where the pastor counsels a lot of folks and instead of counseling folks,

I think he should be, you can counsel folks and train leadership. 2

Timothy 2, verse 2, where you're training up the leaders for the next generation and even the current generation.

So you have people in 1 Thessalonians language, some that need help, some that need encouragement, some need to be rebuked, some are mature, some are immature.

So if you're only hanging out with immature people, telling them the truth, well, pastors, of course, have to do that.

But if you train others, then those others can hang out with some of those that are just chronically needing help, that are people who are redeemed by the blood of the

Lamb and you should invest into them, but not to the exclusion of training other leaders.

It is my own anecdotal research that when I find a pastor who does an inordinate amount of time of biblical counseling, he doesn't train other leaders as much.

You can kind of do one or the other. And so I'm not saying it's either or. I'm just saying heavy on biblical counseling means light on men's discipleship.

You say, well, then he brings in people for counseling and then they listen in. So I understand those things, but I'm just saying don't ever underestimate the power of the word preached no matter what else is going on.

You say, well, I'm a prophetic counselor and I wouldn't disagree with you. Okay, good. Don't overdo counseling so that you underdo the pulpit ministry.

Because, of course, there's preaching house to house. I know that. But there's also the discipleship element.

Okay, so Mike Evendroth, just a few concerns, some concerns when it comes to prophetic counseling. Maybe you disagree with me.

You can write me. Maybe you say, yeah, I see some of the warnings there. Thirdly, what about hermeneutics?

Sometimes there's something called the euthetic hermeneutic. That's coined by Evendroth, Patrick, a euthetic hermeneutic.

Actually, maybe before Pat, Dr. Robert Thomas talked about the euthetic hermeneutic when

I discussed this with him in 1996. There is a quote here that I will read.

The Bible has much to say about resolving conflict. Almost every book in the

New Testament says something about this topic. Romans 12, almost an entire chapter focuses on preventing and resolving conflicts.

Romans 14, same emphasis culminating in verse 19. This is in a book called

Biblical Principles of Conflict Resolution. I don't know who did that book. I want to say that's a

J. Adams thing, but I'm not really sure. There are some euthetic counselors that have stated that the key verse or theme of the book of Philippians is,

I urge you Odia and urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord. J.

Adams, New Testament commentaries, I think you will see an euthetic hermeneutic where everything is looked at through the lens of biblical counseling.

I think that's an error. I think the proper grammatical historical method of interpretation isn't the euthetic hermeneutic.

How about this? Intro to biblical counseling.

Finally, page 262. Finally, in order for our instruction to be appropriate, we must be aware of our counselee's receptivity to counsel.

Jesus said, do not give what is holy to dogs and do not throw your pearls before swine.

As they trample them under their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.

Tear you to pieces, Matthew 7, 6. So what we don't want to do is take a verse about unbelievers and make it for believers and say this is receptivity to counsel.

This is common where you're so into things. And by the way, being into things, people are into counseling.

People are into euthetic counseling a lot. And maybe there are some things that have been changed and you can get degrees in euthetic counseling with a proper understanding of the

Word of God is central. Discipling men if you're a pastor is key. And having the right hermeneutics.

I'm not saying there isn't. I'm just saying these are some ditches that you could drive into if you're an euthetic counselor.

Watch out for these ditches. That's a better way. The ditches of euthetic counseling.

How about fourthly, the structure? Here's the fourth ditch that you might drive into if you're not careful.

The structure of counseling. So psychological elements, you meet for 10 or 15 weeks.

You get your halo data. You've got your PDI. You've got your form. There's the solver acronym that I was taught.

You talk about the right things from the Bible. But you do it in a framework or a format or a setting that's talk.

It's talk therapy. It's back to Freud again. Hey, we can talk through these things.

Now, of course, there has to be some talk. This is what the Bible says about the subject. This is what the Bible says about how you can change.

Okay, I'm not against talk. That's not my point. But the 15 -week structure of let's talk and work through this,

I think maybe if you were doing something together, it would be better. You see, that's what we do. We talk for three weeks and we go do something together in light of ministry.

So I know there's exceptions to the rule. These are possible ditches. MacArthur, the typical modern

Christian breastplate is a little paper bib. Absolutely useless. It's made up of a system or a method or a program.

10 to 12 sessions with a counselor. That's not what you need. What you need is about 10 or 12 hours in the presence of God until you sort out the unholy characteristics in your life and get right with him.

End quote, Believer's Armor Study Notes, Ephesians 6, page 33. And then lastly, the fifth ditch in euthetic counseling movements that you should watch out for is kind of the gnostic aspect, the training that's needed.

I am trained in euthetic counseling and you are not. And I have the insider knowledge and you don't.

You say, well, I believe in euthetic counseling. I don't believe that. Well, again, it's just a ditch to watch out for. I know

I'm lacking in so many areas. But I believe that when the Spirit of God, through his providential hand, dropped me here in central

Massachusetts with a Bible and his Spirit dwelling in me, he, the

Spirit dwelling in me, that I was competent to counsel. That I was competent to counsel.

I believe that's true. I was with one of the key guys in euthetic counseling years ago in the car, giving him a ride to the airport and discussing a friend of mine that was struggling with homosexuality, a man calling himself a

Christian. And he would leave our Bible study and we were talking about the Word and the

Lord and then he would drive past some bar and just go in there and do things he shouldn't. And basically this person told me that if he was working with him, that there would be progress.

And so there's a gnostic inner knowledge. People that have been trained.

One man said, there's a team of counselors available to minister to regular attenders, according to Romans 15, 14.

Any Christian should be able to be competent to counsel. Proverbs 20, verse 5, though, it is clear that not all can draw out the deep waters of the heart.

Okay, in introduction to biblical counseling, interpreting counseling data is both a science and an art. Becoming an effective counselor involves not only spiritual giftedness and knowledge of the science and interpreting data, but of a continual practice of those principles until they become second nature.

Goode said, in addition, we insist that every staff member who counsels non -members must complete successfully the

NANC certification. Thank you. MacArthur, Romans commentary, page 328.

All faithful Christians are divinely equipped to admonish one another as needs and opportunities arise among them.

I could just say the priesthood of all believers, couldn't

I? So, Mike Ebendroth here. Watch out for these ditches when it comes to the

New Thetic counseling movement. I probably in seminary had all kinds of thoughts about this, and I probably had some extreme thoughts.

Me? That I would have an extreme thought? And I think

I've mellowed over the years, but I still see the possibility of, you know, driving off the road into these dishes.

And, you know, if you're going to have a conference, and you're going to say it's a marriage conference, packed. Marriage and sex conference, packed.

End times conference, packed. Counseling conference, packed. And then if you say we're going to have a conference on the

Trinity, say what? I mean, people just don't show up.

Very, very popular to have the New Thetic counseling track. I think you could do it.

If you avoid these five ditches, I wouldn't say, hey, you shouldn't teach New Thetic counseling.

You shouldn't get a bachelor's degree or master's degree or something like that. I wouldn't say that at all. I'm just saying you're going to drive down in the ditch if you're not careful.

And you're going to go searching for idols of the heart. And I don't think sometimes even anybody knows what the idols of the heart are, except maybe that person.

You know, Adam sinned and God deals with the act, not some inner issue. Or he was dealing with the manifestation of the heart, the outward act.

You know, what's the idols of the heart? So maybe that'd be my sixth ditch. Be careful of the idols of the heart business. But we're out of time on NoCoRadio.

So my name is Mike Ebendroth. This is NoCompromisedRadio .com. Don't forget the new books out.

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