March 14, 2019 Show with Joe Suozzo on “Sanctification Thru Suffering” PLUS Bruce Bennett on “Purgatory”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 14th day of March 2019.

We've got two guests today that I'm looking forward to interviewing. The first is a first -time guest.

The second is a longtime friend who is a returning guest. During the first hour, we have

Joe Suazo joining us for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He is senior pastor of Emmanuel Bible Church of Howell, New Jersey, and we're going to be continuing a theme that we've been discussing with other speakers at an upcoming conference,

Sanctification Through Suffering. And then, during the second hour, my friend, as I just mentioned,

Bruce Bennett, will be joining us, pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. He is going to be addressing the theme,

Purgatory, Is it Biblical? And we'll also be discussing a debate he is having with a

Roman Catholic apologist coming up very shortly in the near future on that very same topic.

But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Joe Suazo.

Good afternoon, Chris. It's great to have you. Well, what we do typically,

Joe, with first -time guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is we have them give an abbreviation of their salvation testimony, starting off with what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Lord raised up in your life to draw you to himself and save you. Well, I grew up in an

Italian Catholic home and had left home when

I was 18 and went on kind of an odyssey of about three years traveling around the world. And one of those years

I spent in India where I was about three months on a

Buddhist monastery. So I kind of got roped into kind of New Age, Eastern mysticism for a number of years.

And then around the age of 22, 23, after reading Scripture for about six months,

I gave my life to Christ. And not too long after that,

I had a sense of a call from the Lord to return to India to share the gospel, where I went to Moody Bible Institute to get some training, got my undergraduate degree there, went to India, spent 10 years involved in church planning, and since we've come back in 2000 been involved in pastoral ministry.

Praise God. Well, when did you start pastoring the church that you now pastor,

Emanuel Bible Church of Howell, New Jersey? And if you could give us some more details about this congregation. 2004,

I came in and they were going through a difficult time. We were just visiting, my wife and I, as guest speakers.

I was a guest speaker and came with my family and my wife. It was a church that was kind of struggling, and we were praying, and we just had a sense from the

Lord that he wanted us to do more here. And one thing led to the next. He reached out to me.

I gave him my resume, some references, and we went through a long process with the search committee and eventually came on staff in 2004.

So we've been on staff since 2004. It's about 250 people who regularly attend, 200, 250 people, and it comes from a conservative

Baptist background, and that's basically the roots of the church.

It's actually this year we're celebrating our 50th anniversary. I'm the fourth pastor in 50 years.

Now when you say a conservative Baptist background, do you actually mean the CBA, the Conservative Baptist Association?

No, I think it was GRB originally, but they left that, I think, in the 70s, way before I got here.

Okay, and tell us about how you met our mutual friend,

Andrew Rappaport, the founder of Striving for Eternity Ministries, who is actually running the conference where you'll be speaking on suffering.

And I thought this was quite interesting. You began telling me the story right before we went on the air. If you could tell our listeners about this.

Well, I went to India in 1989, and I met my wife who was on the same missions team, and we got engaged in 1990.

We came back to get married in 1991 at her home church. And before I went to India, there was like a group of young men that I used to do

Bible study with, evangelism with. We used to actually preach on the boardwalks in New Jersey and everything else.

And that group, while I was away in India, Andrew kind of got friendly with a few of them.

And I had invited them up to my wedding, and they came up a couple hours north in New Jersey.

And they brought Andrew along, and he came up in a suit, and he was one of the ushers.

That was the first time I met him. He was an usher at my wedding. Now, was he a

Christian at the time? Because I know that he is from Egypt. Yeah, he was a young Christian. Yeah, because he's a Jewish believer. Yes, that's right.

Great. Well, tell us about the Sanctification Through Suffering conference, specifically what you will be addressing under that umbrella of Sanctification Through Suffering.

Just to let our listeners know, to remind you, it's going to be held this Friday and Saturday, March 15th and 16th, at the

Chinese American Bible Church on 65 Gibson Place in Freehold, New Jersey. It is not going to be conducted in the

Chinese language. They are just using that venue. But if you could tell us specifically about what you will be addressing.

Well, the subject I took on is the biblical basis of suffering, and this is something that's been on my heart for quite some time, and actually may eventually turn into a book.

So this is just a kind of a precursor to some of my thoughts. It's an exposition of Romans 8, 20, and 21, and trying to ferret that out with the

Genesis account of chapters 1 through 3. So just to remind your listeners of what

Romans 8, 20, 21 is, Paul is talking about, in the context of suffering, he's saying,

I do not consider the sufferings of this present time worth comparing to the glory that is to be revealed.

And then he continues to say, for creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption, obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

And so, really, Paul is pointing to our future glory in Christ, at the coming of Christ, the resurrection, our glorification.

And in light of the suffering that we face in the world, whether it be persecution or other kinds of suffering, he's basically saying that these things are lightweight or small in comparison.

So I basically am ferreting out a number of questions based on this passage, and eventually going to answer them from the

Genesis account. Questions like, what is the creation that Paul is talking about?

How is it subjected to futility? What is this futility? And why was this creation subjected?

What state was it in before it was subjected? What did this subjection do to creation and had this change mankind, and ultimately how

God will one day change the course of events in the future? So why

I believe it's so important for us to have a biblical understanding of suffering and its roots is because many believers are really caught off guard when they do suffer, whatever the cause may be, whatever the situation may be, because they don't have an understanding of the why, and so they question

God's goodness, they question his character, they question what he's up to in their lives.

As a result, instead of walking victoriously in Christ, what winds up happening is the believer becomes discouraged, despondent, depressed, despair, instead of discovering the joy in the midst of that suffering.

Well, it sounds like something that not only every believer should attend, if they are capable of attending, but also lost folks as well, so that they can finally, for the first time in their lives, discover that there is purpose in their suffering, and if they are adopted into Christ's family, if they become a

Christian, then they will certainly have the promise that even their suffering will work together for the good, no matter what that suffering may be entailing, and that is, of course, according to Romans 8 .28,

a promise only to the Christian. That's the key with this whole passage,

Romans 8 .28, in light of suffering, in light of these things that we don't want in our lives, whether it be physical disease, aging, death, our struggle at times with provision, spiritual warfare, the conflict that we come into between men, communities, all the palette of various kinds of suffering.

Unless we have an assurance in our heart that God is weaving something through it all, that we may be transformed into the image of Christ, if we don't have that conviction in our hearts, and an understanding of where that comes from in Scripture, then the enemy can take those times and turn our hearts away from the

Lord, rather than creating a testimony or story through our lives for His glory, what winds up happening is the believer becomes unfruitful.

And actually, if you were to accept in the parable of the sower and the seed, if you were to accept that one of the seeds that are sown that's choked by weeds or rocks, and prohibited from growing, is also possible for the believer's life, then one of those conditions is the suffering that a believer might endure.

It actually could, instead of bringing us to a greater sense of our sufficiency in Christ, it could actually point us away from the

Lord and becoming fruitful if our hearts are not rooted in the truth of Scripture and God's word. Well, I'm going to remind you again, if anybody wants to attend this

Sanctification Through Suffering conference, this Friday and Saturday, March 15th and 16th at the

Chinese American Bible Church on 65 Gibson Place in Freehold, New Jersey. You can go to strivingforeternity .org

to get more information. strivingforeternity .org Just to let you know,

Justin Peters will be one of the speakers as well. He was our guest yesterday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Frank Mullis, who was our guest on Friday the 1st of March, is on the roster as well.

Colleen Sharp, who's been our guest twice already on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, the last program of which was on Tuesday the 12th of March.

And, of course, as you've been hearing, Joe Suazo is also on that roster.

And go to strivingforeternity .org, strivingforeternity .org for all the details that you need.

I'm going to reread that passage that we are addressing today from Romans 8, 20 -21.

I'm using the New American Standard Bible. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption, into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

And so, basically, I think we should start with, and you already hinted at it when you were describing the basis for your speaking engagement at the conference.

Let's start with the question, what is the context of what the

Apostle Paul is writing there? Well, when you look at what was going on in Rome at the time, we know a couple of things from history.

One is, Paul most likely wrote this from Corinth in 58

A .D. I think only people from New York and New Jersey pronounce it

Corinth. Okay. Well, I'm from New York myself, but I've also heard

Corinth. Or Corinth, yeah. And they were under the

Emperor Nero. Of course, we know that when Rome burned years after this was written, this letter, he accused the

Christians, which resulted in horrific persecution. But there was tremendous tension going on between the

Roman Empire and its cold worship of the emperor and the believing community.

Another thing to be reminded about Romans is that several years prior, before Nero, under the

Emperor Claudius, the Jews were exiled out of Rome.

And Nero lifted that edict, and the Jews returned. Some of those

Jews were believers, of course. Some were not. And so when you understand that there was this struggle with persecution and struggle between the

Jewish believers and the Gentiles, who were without the Jews for several years at the new church, a lot of the passages actually begin to come to life, because you see

Paul again and again and again addressing the Jewish Gentile question. So Paul is really writing partially this letter to encourage the believers in the light of suffering with the promises of God, especially in chapter 8.

And so he picks that theme up. So that's kind of the context.

And he gives us an eschatological picture of the things to come, because he's basically saying all creation is waiting for a particular day.

What is that day? The revealing, glorification of the sons of God, which is the believer.

And so that's the encouragement. He's saying in light of that truth of what will come one day, the things, the suffering, whatever you're going through, is lightweight or not worth comparing with that day.

Well, going back to this specific creation that is mentioned, what is this creation specifically that Paul is referring to?

Well, the word there in the original language is all of creation, would be the heavens and the earth, going back to the

Genesis 1 -1 account, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and so would include all of creation.

So which leads us to a second question, is who subjected it, and why is it frustrated?

Those would be the two other questions that we would have to follow this up with. And the answer to that is, obviously, based on the context, it's the

Lord who subjected it. And the key there is he subjected it in hope, but what was his frustration, and when did this happen?

So when we go to the Genesis account, in chapter 1, we know that on every day of creation, the first six days,

God pronounced, as he created the heavens and the earth, solar systems, and planets, and stars, and life on earth, plant life, marine life, birds, mammals, including man, on the sixth day,

God said on each day that it is good, and makes a great declaration at the very end of chapter 1, that all creation is very good.

Then chapter 2, we have this command given to man. He's to multiply, he's to take care of the earth, steward it, but then there's this command to not eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If he did, the warning was that he would surely die.

And so when I read Romans 8, 20, 21, the phrase creation subjected to futility, followed by bondage to decay,

I would say that that happened in the Genesis 3 account after Adam and Eve took of the fruit, and God put them outside the garden, away from the tree of life, and at that moment, death and decay was pronounced not only on Adam and Eve, but on all creation, this change or shift, if you will, in the created universe happened as a result of sin, judgment on sin.

So unlike our old earth brethren, who

I believe, mistakenly believe, that the earth is millions of years old, and that death occurred in the animal life and plant life before the fall, in this scenario that you are speaking about, and I'm assuming you are a young earth creationist.

I don't know that for a fact, but I'm assuming. Yes, I am. And so the only way that plant life would have died prior to the fall would have been when

Adam and Eve were eating the plants, and the vegetables, and the fruits, and so on. Right, I mean, again, we don't know everything, of course, but we do know that I believe, this is what

I believe, and again, part of this is conjecture, it's filling in between the lines, you know,

Scripture is not explicit in terms of defining things, but what I do believe is that there was no mortality at all on creation.

Animals were all herbivores, and of course, going back to what I just said, the only reason plants died is because the animals were eating them as well.

Right. But the animals were not killing each other and eating each other. I would agree with that.

And nobody was dying of old age. No one was dying of old age. There was no futility, there was no bondage to decay.

There was abundance. There was no frustration within creation.

There was harmony. There was harmony between God and man, God and creation, and that changed when man disobeyed and ate of that fruit.

At that point when judgment was pronounced, part of that judgment was death, and something shifted in the material universe.

We know what aging is, based on scientific analysis, but I think what fallen man does is try to normalize something that's actually an abnormal process.

I was laughing, I was thinking of, if you remember the old Lion King cartoon by Disney, where Rafiki, I guess the orangutan, who's a shaman priest, basically not only doing shaman -like rituals in terms of Simba, but basically talking about the circle of life, and somehow that dying and living and dying and living and dying and living is somehow a holy and sanctified normal process of all of life, the circle of life.

Nothing could be further from the truth, from scripture. Dying is an abnormal process as a result of God's judgment with the promise that one day creation itself and man would be liberated, and of course we know that that's why

Jesus came. That's why he went to the cross. And that's the very reason why Christians need to be very careful if they have loved ones who are dying of some illness, disease, some kind of crippling accident that is going to bring an end to their life sooner than anyone had hoped.

When they are placed in hospice care very often, Christians have to be very careful what kind of hospice care that these folks have, or that they at the very least tell their loved ones the truth and try to do damage control when the hospice care workers speak to them and counsel the dying person.

Because, at least in the secular realm, the hospice movement, which is in one regard a wonderful and beautiful thing to see people compassionately and tenderly care for those who are dying, but the danger of the hospice care that I had witnessed with my own mother, and I thank

God my mother was already a born -again believer before she was under the care of hospice workers, but they were telling her the very thing that you were describing that was even present in the

Lion King cartoon. They were basically telling my mother, don't worry about death, fearlessly embrace death, death is your friend, death is just a part of the natural process of life, embrace it, don't worry about it now.

There is some truth in that for the Christian, but these hospice workers would no doubt be telling that to anybody.

Well, I think really, coming from ignorance obviously, people try to say comforting words during these times of death or great difficulty, but their words of comfort are coming from a place devoid of, and so their motive to bring comfort is good, but their word is not good because it's coming from a place of deception.

The idea that death is good in any way not only goes against what

Scripture teaches, I mean, Scripture teaches it's a sting, and all of everything we experience in this life tells us there's nothing good about death, and yet people say this because they're trying to give themselves some kind of false assurance, and all's we're doing is, well, the person who does it only digs a hole deeper for themselves.

There's only one way forward, and that's through the person of Jesus Christ, and that's what makes the

Gospel so glorious. He not only came and died so that we may be reconciled with God through his shed blood, but the beauty of the

Gospel is he showed us absolute victory over death by rising from the dead three days later, and giving us the promise that all who believe in him, though we die, we will continue to live, that he is the resurrection of life.

That is the essence of the Gospel, and that is what Paul's referring to in Romans 8, 20, that even though we see this frustration and bondage of creation, there's this great hope that God has put forward that we can find in the

Gospel, and that's why preaching the Gospel becomes so important. It is the most important thing.

There's nothing that can come before it, really. Yes, and the only ones who should fearlessly approach death are those who know that they will be spending an eternity with Christ.

Correct, yes. And, of course, there is a God -given instinct to fear death under normal circumstances when we're not on a hospital bed waiting for an imminent death.

I mean, obviously, we're not supposed to be walking through busy traffic because I have nothing to fear because I know

I'll be in heaven. That would be irresponsible and actually sinful because you're not even caring about those loved ones of yours that are going to lose out on a lot if you dipped apart this earth.

And, in fact, that's one of the selfish aspects of suicide is that people have more regard for their own suffering and pain and anguish, whether mental or physical, than they are either, first and foremost, considering the commands of God, because suicide is self -murder, but also the fact that they are robbing others of their own role in their lives and their own presence in their lives.

So, obviously, suicide is never an option. But we're going to get back to more of why

Romans 8, 20 through 21 is important in this whole conversation on suffering when we return from our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I can understand a question like this might lend itself to someone wanting to remain anonymous, something about suffering that they'd rather not draw attention to their identity, because it's something very personal.

So we can understand that. But if it's just a general question, a theological or doctrinal question on suffering, please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with Joe Suazo on sanctification through suffering.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the first hour with a little less than a half hour to go is

Pastor Joe Suazo. He is the senior pastor of Emanuel Bible Church of Howell, New Jersey and he's one of the speakers at the

Sanctification Through Suffering conference that's coming up this weekend, Friday, March 15th and Saturday, March 16th at the

Chinese American Bible Church in Freehold, New Jersey.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Joe Suazo, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

We have John in Bangor, Maine who has a question for you, Pastor Suazo. He says, the theme of your conference,

Sanctification Through Suffering, is a very compelling theme and a very biblical theme. However, as you must know, there are people throughout history who have wrongly interpreted that concept into a very heretical and very dangerous idea where the self -inflicted suffering somehow makes the person more worthy and acceptable in the sight of God.

One can only help but think of Martin Luther when he was still a Roman Catholic and he was flagellating himself trying to help appease

God because of his sinful nature. And, of course, this is not only wicked and heretical, it is also a dangerous concept for people to have.

Can you please give your own thoughts on this? Well, yeah.

I think this concept of asceticism and self -mutilation and these various forms...

When I was in India living for 10 years, I had seen people who were buried up to their necks in sand.

I saw one man who lived in a cage for 20 years. People fed him in a cage. All these were aberrant ways of thinking about how a person can purify themselves.

I think everyone acknowledges that there's something wrong with man.

I think all these things, whether it be Martin Luther or what the Hindu saints do or some of these Muslim sects that are flagellating themselves.

There's a whole list of things that go on. Yes, and of course we have to remind our listeners when Martin Luther was doing that, that was before he was a regenerate man.

He was still a Roman Catholic. Right, that's right. All this is based on the idea that somehow

I need to improve myself. I need to get rid of these impulses, these carnal desires.

It's man's attempt to try to rid something that only God can do through regeneration.

When we try to think these things through outside of God's Word, we're always going to come up with some crazy idea or thought.

That's just one more way of people trying to improve themselves, either whether it be for God or just improve themselves for themselves sake.

But all have no value in terms of a real sanctification.

The reality is, it's all suffering. None of us invite in for our lives.

None of us want to die. None of us want trial. None of us want financial difficulties, health issues, conflict in relationships, the palate of many things that can come into a person's life.

The difference between biblical sanctification and man trying to take things in his own hands to purify himself is that God, in His sovereignty, uses those things for the good, even though God is not the author of those things.

He allows them into our lives. He's put them in motion. Through judgment, back in the

Garden, Genesis 3. And now God, in His sovereignty and really mercy,

He can take that time of great trial and use it to develop our character.

And that's really a miracle from the Lord that He does that. Amen. Thanks, John and Bangor Main.

Great question. We have CJ in Lyndonhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

I agree with what you were just saying about self -torture, but should we not, as Christians, on occasion bring ourselves a bit of suffering, not to the degree that you were describing, but whenever someone fasts or abstains from creaturely comforts in order to be more focused on the

Lord and perhaps more focused in prayer life and so on, isn't this in some way a self -inflicted suffering that is intended to bring one into a further level of sanctification?

Well, no, because that's a different thing entirely. It all goes back to the motive of why.

Why do I fast? I take time out of my schedule to fast and pray because I'm seeking to draw closer to the

Lord and maybe going to the Lord for Him to speak to my heart about something, maybe an area of life, so that I could be more useful to Him in this world in the days that I have.

So answering the why, I'm living for God's glory. Some toll of my life is to be a reflection of who

God is in this world. And so fasting or sacrifice, going into the missions field or sacrificing my time or giving my tithe, all these things which are part of a life of sacrifice is

Christ -likeness in the sense that I'm not trying to change myself.

I'm trying to put myself out there for the Lord's glory. It's the Lord and through the working of His Spirit that is going to change me as I follow

Him. I don't need to go through various ascetic practices to sanctify myself.

That would be like taking matters into your own hands. It's the Spirit that sanctifies. And it's not that I can embark on these special practices to improve myself.

I already have the fullness of Christ. Now as I journey into this life seeking

God's glory, there is going to be suffering just in the fact that I'm sacrificing myself.

When I went to India for ten years, there was tremendous sacrifices involved. And God in His sovereignty used the suffering, used the sicknesses

I went through, used the threats of persecution, used the time that I was giving to Him to develop me to be more like Christ, to transform me into the image of Christ.

But that was secondary to my thought of bringing God glory and serving

Him. As we follow Christ and seek to bring Him glory through our lives, the consequence of that is going to be sanctification.

Amen. And of course there's a huge difference between a missionary who is suffering with malaria on the mission field that is being used of God to even further the sanctification in the life of that missionary.

There's a difference between that and a missionary intentionally injecting malaria into his bloodstream or something like that.

Yeah, well that's a good point. My first year on the mission field in India, I spent six months in bed with dengue fever and hepatitis

A. Wow. And God was emptying me of a tremendous amount of pride that I had locked into my heart.

I didn't understand it at the time fully, but during that time I spent a tremendous amount of time praying, memorizing scripture, turning to the

Lord, and over time God was using those type of circumstances to rid me of some of the things that were motivating me, you know, self -glory or trying to make a name for myself.

I mean, ultimately the Lord wants us to put Him on the throne and take ourselves off. And He allows things to come into our lives that we may be broken in spirit and depend on Him fully.

And that is God's, going back to Romans 8 -28, that He works all things out for the good.

What's the good? The things He's working out for the good is transforming us into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.

And so He uses this suffering that we go through in this world to change us, but we don't seek out the suffering.

No one needs to seek it out. All you need to do is start serving and preaching the gospel, and you will suffer.

You will suffer. Amen. And of course, since the body is the temple of the

Holy Spirit, we are not to unnecessarily or sinfully abuse the body in ways that it was not intended to be.

And if bringing pain and suffering to your body was somehow an admirable thing in and of itself, then it would be a wonderful Christ -like activity to eat the worst junk food on a regular basis you could possibly eat, never exercise, and all that kind of thing.

That would be somehow praiseworthy if punishing yourself was indeed a commanded thing or a praiseworthy thing for a

Christian to do. But obviously there are things that are punishing to the body that are involved in obedience that have nothing to do with intentional self -infliction of pain other than the things like that hard work and exercise bring those things about.

But those are beneficial to the body, even though they cause pain. Right. Well, this is another part of the gospel.

I mean, in all these areas that are suffering, whether it be a disease, conflict, alienation from God, a number of areas, the spiritual warfare, the attacks of the evil one, every one of those areas, we have authority in the name of Jesus to enter in and bring change.

We're not going to eliminate disease and suffering, but we can go in as a medical doctor, for example, in a refugee camp in Syria and serve for the glory of God, sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ and loving those who are hurting in Jesus' name and bring in healing through our skills as a surgeon or a doctor.

Spiritual warfare. We see Satan's oppression on various people. We can pray with them and give them the truth that they may be freed from that oppression, be reconciled to God.

Areas of conflict, we can be peacemakers and enter into the civic arena or enter into communities that are undergoing conflict and be a people who bring peace.

So it's not just future glory where suffering will be alleviated, but right here and now, in the name of Jesus, we can enter into this world as salt and light and be agents of comfort where we minimize, we're not going to eliminate it, but we can minimize and make the world a better place.

But we are given no promise for ourselves, though, that by becoming a Christian, our pain and suffering will be lessened or alleviated.

That's a false teaching. That's this whole, I don't know what you call it. Word of faith movement.

Yeah, yeah, that whole thing, it's an absolute false teaching, and it does a tremendous disservice to people and their faith.

A few years ago, there was one of those churches that went defunct in the area, and we got about ten families here at the church, and the confusion that they had in their hearts, the false shame, the false guilt, for when they were financially struggling, they felt it was their faith that was at the, you know.

You know, it could simply be they need to learn to budget, or they need to get a second job, or they need to improve their...

There could be many reasons for various sufferings. But, you know, of course, they oversimplified it.

They say, you know, if you have faith, then of course give to their ministry. Right, your faith could bring about your suffering.

For instance, you could lose your job because you are going to remain faithful and obedient to Christ and his word rather than give in to the pressure of an employer who wants you to sin in some way, or who wants you to deny

Christ and his gospel, or if he wants you to keep your mouth shut about Christ during those times when employees are free to have conversations with each other.

I'm not saying that Christians are to abuse and steal from their employer by using it for evangelism time when that should be working, but I'm talking about those times of the day when anybody can say pretty much whatever they feel like saying at the time of recreation or lunch or something.

But, well, anyway, I want to make sure that you have right now five minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize whatever it is that you want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, I think the key as you look at Scripture and how it defines suffering, we know that when

God judged sin and brought decay through judgment into creation, that we see the effects of that through disease and dying.

And while in Christ we have the great promise of resurrection, while we live in this life, in this body here and now, all of us are going to face it on some level, some more than others.

It's a mystery why some perhaps have, like our brother Justin Peter, struggling with cerebral palsy.

It's a mystery why he suffers with that and why another person has something else.

But we find God's grace is always sufficient. And the promises of Scripture always are there for us, whatever we may be facing in just that one area of our life.

Paul said this in 2 Corinthians 4, he said, we do not lose heart.

Why? Why do we not lose heart? Though our outward bodies are wasting away, inwardly we're being renewed day by day.

So he went on, he said, I don't consider this current suffering. Again, we're comparing with the eternal weight of glory that awaits us.

Not even comparable. And so we have that area. We have the area of conflict that we see around the world, whether it be our conflict in our national political theater, conflict between nations, conflict within marriages and families.

We know the root of that conflict is the sin of man's heart. And the greatest, the remedy, the main remedy for that is for us to be transformed into the image of Christ.

So that instead of hatred and unforgiveness and bitterness, our hearts are filled with love, kindness, gentleness, patience.

Instead of attacking and seeking justice on our own terms, we trust

God, who's the perfect judge. And rather than take vengeance, we love our enemies.

And so the believer enters into the arena of conflict, brings great change. But also we understand when conflict comes our way, whether it be through persecution or we have a friend who betrays us, we know the root of that pain and suffering is sin.

It's not arbitrary. And so we see in conflict, we see in terms of deprivation or man's struggle with making a living.

We can go back to the Genesis 3 account when God said to man that now by the sweat of your brow, this earth would be more difficult to yield food from.

There would be thorns and thistles. And sure enough, we find the difficulty of making a living. And we have to remember that in all these arenas of suffering, we have the world parading a palette of various solutions that are empty and can never really lead to real things.

I remember this one story. I was heading into the hospital to visit my own father who was dying of brain cancer.

And I had this old beat -up Toyota, and I pull up at the exact same time next to this gentleman who had this like one of the most expensive

Marty Sadie's Benz you can have. We pull up at the same time.

We start walking towards the hospital, which was a couple hundred yards away. It was a big hospital.

We're walking there together to the entrance. I said, how are you doing? He said, I'm doing terrible. I said, why?

He said, well, I own 20 Burger Kings in the area, franchises.

He says, I own apartment buildings. And he went on and on with just his possessions. He said,

I would give it all away just to have my wife and her health back. So I walked with him up to his wife's room.

She was dying of cancer on her deathbed. And really right there and then you just saw the futility of just man's pursuits.

He was confessing to me. I shared the gospel with him, prayed with him. It was one of those

God -given appointments. But we see how the world just continually is deceiving people to think that wealth, money, somehow we can just have perfect health, somehow that we can live a life that's unabated, without suffering, and just somehow sail into the sunset into some kind of a quiet place.

It doesn't work out that way. All the realities of what Scripture teaches, that this suffering is the result of judgment on sin.

And if there's only one who can take that judgment away, that's the person,

Jesus Christ, who came that we may be saved. So really the gospel is glorious because we have the promise that one day suffering will be no more.

And I just end with this one last beautiful portion of Scripture that we read in Revelation chapter,

I believe, 20, where he says, Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man.

And he will be with them, and he will be their God, and they will be his people. And we're given this amazing promise.

He says, He will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more. Neither will there be pain, neither will there be tears or mourning anymore for the former things that passed away.

And that is what we look forward to, our glorious future in Christ. Amen. Well, I want to remind our listeners that if you want to attend the upcoming conference on sanctification through suffering, you can go to the website of Striving for Eternity Ministries.

That's strivingforeternity .org, strivingforeternity .org.

It's being held this Friday and Saturday, March 15th and 16th in Freehold, New Jersey.

Also, if you have interest in visiting the

Emanuel Bible Church, which is, the Emanuel Bible Church is located in Howell, New Jersey.

You can visit their website, and that is ibcnj .org,

IBC for Emanuel Bible Church. And that's nj for New Jersey .org,

ibcnj .org. Joe Suazo, it's been an honor and a privilege to interview you today, and I look forward to having you back at some point in the future, and hopefully even meeting you face -to -face at some point at one of these events that Andrew Rappaport organizes.

Well, thanks for having me on, Chris, and God bless you, and God bless Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I really appreciate that.

Thank you very much. Okay. And don't go away, folks, because my old friend, Pastor Bruce Bennett, will be joining us to discuss purgatory.

Is it biblical? Pastor Bruce will be debating a Roman Catholic apologist on that theme, and we'll be hearing more of the details about that.

He is the pastor of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island. If you have questions on purgatory, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us, as always, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Bruce Bennett after this elongated break. Remember, this is a longer than normal break, so be patient with us and write down the information provided by advertisers and write down questions for Bruce Bennett at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hello, my name is

James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says,

If a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve

Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California, was born.

For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

It has been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the

Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the

Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by His life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the

Church is to honor and serve the Triune God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated, by God's grace, to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and His Church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two

S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round

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I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do? Could I just say, God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

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Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you. One sure way all

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc. Have a great day. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

It has been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary, offering a full program of courses leading to the

Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the

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Triune God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and His church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

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Two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.

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Gospel of Sovereign Grace. Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are being joined for the second hour by my friend

Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. He's going to be discussing

Purgatory, Is It Biblical?, which is also the theme of a debate he is having, God willing, on March 30th with Roman Catholic apologist

Matthew Luke Broderick. But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question on Purgatory today for Pastor Bruce Bennett, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

chrisarnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Before we are joined by Pastor Bruce, I just have a few announcements to make about upcoming events.

First of all, this weekend, as we were mentioning in the first hour of the show, our friends at Striving for Eternity Ministries are having a conference tomorrow and Saturday, March 15th and the 16th, and that is being held at the

Chinese American Bible Church in Freehold, New Jersey. Sanctification Through Suffering is the theme, and the speakers include

Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suazo, and Colleen Sharp. If you'd like more details on this

Sanctification Through Suffering conference, go to strivingforeternity .org, strivingforeternity .org.

Then, coming up in May, an event that I intend to be visiting there is going to be the

East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth at the Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

The theme is, I Believe in the Holy Spirit. Speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, who's a

Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Stephen J. Nichols, who's the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas. The event, as I said, is

May 28th through the 30th, and that's the East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

I hope that as many of you as possible will join me at the East Coast Ministers Conference, and please ask around, where's

Chris Arnson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio? And seek me out, and perhaps have lunch with me, or have fellowship with me, because I would love to meet as many of my

Iron Trip and Zion listeners who are in attendance there as possible, May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, East Coast Ministers Conference of the

Banner of Truth. Go to BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org, click on Events, and then click on East Coast Ministers Conference.

They also have other conferences in other parts of the United States and other parts of the world. So if you see a conference that is geographically closer to where you live, and you would rather go to that conference, click on that link.

But I will personally be attending, God willing, the Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania event, the

East Coast Ministers Conference on I Believe in the Holy Spirit, May 28th through the 30th, hope to see you there.

Go to BannerofTruth .org, BannerofTruth .org. And then the Foundations Conference is being held in New York City, December 19th and 20th, right in the heart of New York City, Manhattan.

And I just love this conference, and I strongly urge you, if you intend to register for this conference, do it quickly, because they can only hold about 200 people in the venue.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard voicing the ad for New Covenant Church NYC, one of my sponsors.

He is the founder of One Passion Ministries and one of the most phenomenal preachers on the planet

Earth. Rev. Jeff Thomas, another phenomenal preacher, now retired from the pastoral ministry in Wales.

Richard Caldwell, Jr. Rev. Armin Tomasian, who I think is going to be a household name within the next decade, a really powerful, powerful young pastor and preacher and evangelist.

He is just extraordinary and right now relatively unknown, but I think every

Reformed person on the globe within the next 10 years is going to know that name, Rev. Armin Tomasian.

Andrew Quigley and Paul Washer have joined the roster of speakers at the

Foundations Conference. If you'd like to attend and join me there, go to thefoundationsconference .com.

That's thefoundationsconference .com. You'd better put the in there. That's the only way that website will work.

Thefoundationsconference .com. That's December 19th and 20th in Manhattan. Last but not least, if you love

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you don't want this show to disappear from the airwaves, you love the guests and topics that we feature on this show that are very often never heard anywhere else, then please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly via debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer snail mail and want to mail in a check via the United States Postal Service, well, then just write down the address, the mailing address that appears on the screen after you click support at IronTripandZionRadio .com.

Never, ever, ever siphon money away from your regular giving to the church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio because those two things are commands of God providing for church and home.

Providing for my show is not a command of God, but if you love the show and you are blessed above and beyond your financial ability to obey those commands, then please give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can at IronTripandZionRadio .com.

Click support, then click, click to donate now. I thank all of you who have been donating, some of you every month, some of you twice a month, and I thank a new time, a first time donor, an

Anglican who listens to this program who just donated $500. I had never heard from this brother before and I really want to thank you for such an extraordinarily generous gift.

But please help us remain on the air if indeed you want us to remain on the air. If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. As long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what

I believe, then we will help you launch that ad campaign immediately because we definitely urgently need your advertising dollars.

If you are not a member of a local church and you're not prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, so please send me an email if you need help finding a good solid church.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world. I've already helped a number of Iron Trip and Zion Radio listeners find churches near them.

So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church home or something similar in the subject line.

Even if you're going on vacation and you need a church to visit while you are away from your regular church,

I have those lists that can help you. So I hope to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Bruce Bennett, pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

On the subject of purgatory, is it biblical? That is the theme of his debate that he is having on Saturday, March 30th at 6 .30

p .m. in Farmingville, Long Island with Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick.

And for more details on that event go to wotchurch .com W -O -T, which stands for Word of Truth wotchurch .com

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Bruce Bennett. Hey Chris, always a joy.

Thanks for having me. Oh, it's always a joy to have you on the program as well, brother. And tell our listeners who are unfamiliar with you about Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

We're located in Farmingville serving the folks in this area with the gospel of grace expressed in scripture that is the only true gospel that can save people from the wrath of God.

And in a heavily Roman Catholic area we find that there are many people that have never heard the gospel in this area, surprisingly.

And we are God -centered, God -glorifying, we believe that the five souls of the

Reformation are critical to the correct understanding of the gospel. We are centered in scripture, the glory of God, and we are open to the

Holy Spirit and how he would have us minister to those in our body. So if anyone wants more information they can go to our website and find out more.

Yes, would you call this, Farmingville, the North Shore of Central Suffolk?

Would that be the best way to describe it? Actually, according to the map, we're almost dead center in the middle of the island and only a couple minutes north of the

Long Island Expressway. So we're very conveniently located for folks that are traveling from other areas of the island.

So we're almost dead center. And you're right across the parking lot from where the former location of Hoper Forne Baptist was.

Yes, thank God in Providence wants a Reformed witness in this area.

So you're absolutely right, brother. And we're rejoicing with Pastor Rich and his church in their new building that they've just moved into a few months ago in Corham.

Yes, in fact, Rich Jensen of Hoper Forne Baptist Church of Corham is going to be, God willing, our guest a week from today,

March 21st. So I hope that you folks join us for my interview with Pastor Rich Jensen of Hoper Forne Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

I'm going to set the stage here for our discussion with a quote from the infamous

Council of Trent. There are some people who are even evangelical

Protestants by profession who, when they know that we have our differences with the Roman Catholic Church, they yawn when we bring up purgatory as one of those differences.

And they're like, is that really a big deal? Well, yes, it is a big deal. First, let me read

Canon 30 from the Council of Trent's Decree on Justification, the sixth session in 1547.

It says, If anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received, the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out for any repentant sinner that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid either in this world or in the other in purgatory before access can be opened to the kingdom of heaven, anathema sit, or let him be anathema, which basically in the days when

Trent existed as a response to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, that meant you were going to hell.

The Catholic Church today has a very different spin on that that just, in their minds today, or at least in what they tell people, well, that doesn't mean you're going to hell.

That just means you can't be a member in good standing of the Roman Catholic Church, and if you deny this teaching, you'll be excommunicated.

And of course, we all know that virtually very few people today get excommunicated by the

Roman Catholic Church, which is why you can have Governor Mario Cuomo and many other

Roman Catholic politicians declare their joy over women being able to murder their children in the womb and even after they're born during a botched abortion.

But anyway, did you pick this theme of purgatory when you invited

Matthew Luke Broderick, the Roman Catholic apologist, to debate this coming

March 30th? No, actually, he thought of it.

Really? Yeah, we actually have a couple of ideas, and the Mass and the

Pope and this one were in the mix, so this one was chosen, and he kind of was leaning in that direction.

So I was like, yeah, let's go for it. Yeah, that's very, very refreshing to hear, and I applaud you,

Matthew Luke Broderick, if you're listening, because unfortunately, the few Catholic apologists today that seem to be interested in having a debate, other than those

Catholic apologists that are new, up -and -coming apologists that want to make a name for themselves and launch a career, but those that are already established apologists in the

Catholic Church really only want to debate things that Protestants believe. They really don't want to spend three hours in detail describing things that the modern

Catholic, even the modern conservative Catholic, is very often embarrassed about with a public mixed audience of Protestants and Catholics.

They may not be embarrassed about it when they're just with Catholics, but they unfortunately do not want to tackle in a public debate those things anymore.

They used to, in the 80s and 90s, they used to love to do it, it seemed, but now that's bygone error.

So if you could, Bruce, explain, even though I just read from Canon 30 of the

Council of Trent, if you could explain a summary of what Purgatory is.

All right, well, I'll do it two ways. First, I'm going to just give a summary from a very practical overview, and then

I want to actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has endorsement of Pope John Paul II, which is the newer version, post -Vatican

II. So essentially, Purgatory is the place for those who die in venial sin, according to Catholicism, as opposed to mortal sin.

If you die in mortal sin, you go straight to hell, and there's no chance of coming out. But if you die with venial sin, and according to Rome, everyone dies of venial sin, unless you're going to be a beatified saint, which requires at least two miracles, works of superirrigation, and that's determined later through, among other things, the council called the

Devil's Advocate, who will examine your life to determine if those miracles happen, which, by the way, can happen while you are deceased.

People can actually pray to you during the beatification process. Pray for you, you mean?

Oh, you pray to you? Right, during the beatification process, Rome actually allows your parish, and I believe also the diocese that you're in as well, to pray to you during the initial stage of beatification, and if through intercession you get a miracle, and most commonly these miracles,

I put miracles in quotes, are healing -oriented miracles, like, oh, the person had a spot on their lung and it's no longer there, which obviously can have other explanations, but at any rate, that's, yeah, so unless you're a saint, you have to go to purgatory.

So unless you've done miracles or are going to have miracles done through you while you're supposedly in heaven as a saint, you go to purgatory.

So 99 .9999999 % of Roman Catholics, in good standing, that is, who are not in mortal sin.

Now, mortal sin, of course, in Rome, could be simply missing a mass on a Sunday, could also be using birth control, any form of birth control, artificial, natural.

In fact, what I have heard is that the Church of Rome has never dogmatically drawn up a list of what mortal and venial sins are.

That's correct, but they have stated that, at least as a doctrine, that birth control, any form of it, any attempt, that is, for a husband and a wife to avoid conceiving a child would be considered mortal sin.

So if you die without mortal sin on you, and I just mentioned two of the others, it's just a serious, a very grave matter to consider that you knowingly participate in freely, that would be a mortal sin.

Of course, Scripture makes no delineation between mortal and venial, but regardless, so you die, you don't die a mortal sin, you're not a saint, you go to purgatory.

So purgatory is fire, literal fire. Okay, we're talking an actual fire.

Now, some Catholic authors would tend towards more of a metaphorical fire, as most evangelicals, they would describe hell.

But regardless, it's historically actually a fire. Dante's Inferno, okay?

Well, it's a divine comedy, but he wrote three parts of it. There's the purgatorio, there's the heaven, and there's nine rings of heaven, nine rings of purgatory, and nine rings of hell.

But it's there, it's often just cold spots, but you also have this fire as well, and they use this fire to say that we're going to suffer, the person who goes there is going to suffer, so that this suffer becomes redemptive.

That's the whole idea, redemptive suffering, that actually yields the good works that are necessary to justify your soul.

So your soul is only partially justified, and now it can be fully justified by these final good works of suffering that you offer up to God in purgatory.

And once you've suffered to the full extent of the cleansing and purifying of your soul so that all concupiscence, all earthly attachments are removed, which we consider lust, you know, in their mind, then you would be then fully redeemed and then be able to enter into heaven.

So you would spring out of purgatory into heaven. And buying your way out of purgatory or having loved ones buy your way out of purgatory in a faster period of time, people may think that is something of a bygone era from Martin Luther's day and so on, with the death of Tetzel, that doesn't exist anymore, but that's not true because if you go into a

Catholic gift shop or bookstore or even at a Catholic church where they sell mass cards for people to give to those who are bereaving and mourning in grief over the death of a loved one, the mass card will even say that a particular monastery or convent, those who are in those places, whether they be monks or nuns or what have you, are praying for your deceased loved one, and that is basically you're buying this card to help pay for your loved one to get out of purgatory faster.

Yes, it's not just mass cards, but also candles that they have dedicated to purgatorial intercessions, right?

And it's the treasure of merit that's invoked from Mary, the community of saints in heaven, that can be applied.

Even good works here on earth, and of course the sacrifice of the mass can be all used to enhance the treasure of merit that can be applied to an act of mercy that God gives to the purgatorial victim to get them out of there faster.

So if you've gotten sentenced to 55 ,000 years, then it could be sped up by the purchase of those mass cards which yield those intercessions, which creates an additional merit and then mercy to the soul in purgatory.

If I could, Chris, just real quickly, I want to just read the most recent Catholic statement on this from the

Catechism. Is that okay? Oh, yeah, sure. So it's section 1030.

It says, All who die in God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

I feel like vomiting, but okay, let's continue. The Church gives the name purgatory to the final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on purgatory, especially at the Council of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the

Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in sacred

Scripture. And it quotes, Therefore Maccabeus made atonement for the dead, for they might pardon, that they might be delivered from their sins, quoting 2

Maccabees there, which is obviously not Scripture. From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers and suffrage for them above all the

Eucharist sacrifice, above all the Eucharist sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.

The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead.

And that is the full section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is binding on the conscience of the faithful Catholic to this very day.

All right, we have to go to our last break of the show. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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That's lynbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the last hour with about 15 minutes to go is

Pastor Bruce Bennett. He is the pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and we are discussing which is also the theme of the upcoming debate that Pastor Bruce is having with Roman Catholic apologist

Matthew Luke Broderick on Saturday, March 30th at 6 .30 p .m. at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville. For more details, go to wotchurch .com.

W -O -T church, which stands for Word of Truth Church, wotchurch .com.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, I would urge you to do it now immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, chrisarnzen at gmail dot com. Pastor Bruce, this teaching is one of the most grotesque mockeries of the cross of Christ, in my opinion, and the reason being, and I'm sure you would agree, is that it really incredibly and enormously diminishes, if that could be used as a phrase, enormously diminish, but it diminishes what

Christ provided for His people on Calvary in perfection, does it not?

Absolutely, Chris. And furthermore, it also strikes the very heart of the

Gospel. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. So how is salvation wrought by God?

Well, it's the sovereign work that He performs. His own arm worked salvation,

Isaiah 59, Isaiah 63, etc. And what God grants in salvation is a relationship with Himself through His Son.

And eternal life is knowing God, not just knowing about Him, but knowing Him personally. When I'm brought into that relationship by His grace, where He breathes on my dead heart, gives me the gifts of faith and repentance, so I can believe on the

Lord Jesus, who suffered, who died, who resurrected from the dead, and then comes in and gives me the gift of salvation, the gift of eternal life.

It's just that. It's eternal life. And Jesus said eternal life is knowing God. The Greek word ginosko there, to know, is to experience

God in a relationship where He actually changes my life. He gives me a new heart.

The old man is dead. The new man now has come to life, because it's Christ in me, the hope of glory.

It's the Holy Spirit that takes residence in my heart, who represents the Christ who's in heaven at the right hand of the

Father. And the work that He began, He will complete. And it's that relationship whereby my spirit bears witness with His spirit that I'm a child of God, whereby

I know I have this gift of eternal life, not temporary life, not conditional life.

So it really strikes me very hard, the gospel, in addition to demeaning the atoning death, the penal substitutionary death of Christ on the cross for His sheep, which, of course, the

Catholic Church abhors the penal substitutionary atonement doctrine that the

Bible teaches. Do they abhor it in that exact phrase, or do they just redefine what that means?

Like, for instance, there are Arminian brothers and sisters in Christ today that are using the very term of the penal substitutionary atonement that Christ provided on Calvary, and yet they're being very inconsistent because if Christ died as anybody's substitute, that person will certainly be in heaven, otherwise he wasn't a substitute.

So the Arminian is being illogical and not consistent.

But are Roman Catholics actually saying that that phrase in and of itself is automatically something to be condemned, penal substitutionary atonement?

Oh, very much so. In my opinion, the best Roman Catholic apologist out there right now is on EWTN, and his name is

Dr. David Anders. He's a former evangelical Westminster grad. Yeah, I've heard him on the radio.

Yeah, and he really knows his stuff, and he especially will give you the best summary of the

Roman Catholic position on the atonement. And yes,

I mean, I think a poor is very appropriate. He doesn't use that word specifically, but similar phraseology.

But yeah, they absolutely do not agree with Christ actually paying for the sins of his people on the cross.

That, to them, is a form of child abuse. David Anders often uses the illustration of, you know, you come home, you murder somebody, and your son comes out, and the police just, you know, shoot him, and they say, okay, now you're forgiven.

Of course, that's just an absurd attempt to try to analyze that. That's amazing, because this is something that I'm not sure

I heard before. I mean, obviously, even as a Catholic young man, I understood that the death of Christ was to pay the penalty for my sin, even though purgatory reveals that they believe it may have paid the penalty for your sin in regard to your prevention of entering heaven, that you are now going to enter heaven if you obviously not only believe, but go through the sacramental system, according to Rome.

But I always connected, even as a Catholic, Christ's death with the punishment for my sin.

So what are you exactly saying here? The Roman Catholic understanding of the atonement would deny, emphatically, penal substitutionary atonement, which should come as no surprise, at least they're being consistent with their false gospel.

What is the death of Christ for in the Catholic understanding, then? It provides a type of satisfaction along the line of Christus victor, along the lines of offering to God, but not a complete covering or expiation for a person's sin in its entirety.

In other words, it's an attempt to try to reconcile the person, but doesn't accomplish it in its fullness, which the rest of Catholic superiority would recognize with all the various bells and whistles and hoops you have to go through to finally earn

God's acceptance. But they would claim, I'm not saying that this is enough to believe to be orthodox biblically, and I'm not talking about eastern orthodoxy,

I mean biblically sound, they do believe that Christ's death is necessary for anyone to enter into heaven after death,

I'm assuming. Yes, but in the Christus victor sense, in the sense of offering up a mere satisfaction,

Antelm of Canterbury's famous substitutionary view, if you will, that's really where they're at.

It's not a completed work. In the Greek, to pay in full to them is to pay what

Christ had to bring to the Father in terms of offering a general sacrifice, but is not complete in rendering a reconciliation of those who put their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

Other things are required. Other works are required. So it's a renunciation, as you said before, of the work of Christ on the cross.

In other words, it really isn't finished. It's partially finished. Right, right. So yes, it's necessary, but it's not the full payment.

Right. I knew that they teach that other things need to be added to Christ's perfect finished work, the treasury of merit and so on, not only our good deeds, but the deeds of Mary and the saints need to be applied to our account before...

And I'm talking about that's what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, not what we as Bible -believing Protestants believe.

Well, I want you, in about five minutes' time, to summarize what you really think are the most important things that need to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this heretical doctrine of purgatory that you will be opposing in the debate on Saturday, March 30th.

So we're going to be standing up for the gospel that sets people free from their sin. It doesn't just give people a path of good works to follow where they can somehow work out their salvation, which is an impossible path.

There is no other road. Jesus said the road is narrow that leads to eternal life, and the road only goes through Christ.

He alone is the Savior. He alone offers salvation. He alone provides salvation. And we have to relinquish any claim to righteousness.

It's the opposite of trying to earn it. It's actually admitting that we don't have any, like the parable of the publican and the

Pharisees in Luke 18, and actually say, Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner.

And in that passage in Luke 18, verse 13, the publican, a tax collector, when he says that, he says,

Lord, be merciful to me. In Greek, it's halakamahi, is the Greek word there, and it means be my atonement.

Be my sin covering. In other words, cover my sin.

Be my mercy seat, my atonement. And it's asking God to do it. In other words,

God has to do the work. And that's what we're going to be doing in this debate is just reminding our Catholic friends and neighbors that their gospel has presented a wrong view of Christ and his work on the cross, that, in fact, it truly is finished.

The death that was required for our sins will never, ever be competed with by any work that man will produce.

It's the only work that God will accept on behalf of our forgiveness for all of our sins,

Chris, not some that are more serious than others. Arguably, the Catholic Church has a point, but regardless, any sin

James tells us will separate us from God. So it doesn't matter if it's lesser or greater.

They still separate us. And thanks be unto God through our Lord Jesus Christ. He provided once and for all on that cross the payment that will set us free and bring us into an eternal relationship which starts here on this earth and doesn't require additional suffering in a fictitious place called purgatory, but actually brings us right into his presence.

To be absent from the body, Paul says, is to be present with the Lord. That's where true believers go, true born -again believers, those who've had a born -again experience where Christ has come into their lives as Lord and Savior.

They're placing their faith in Christ alone. And by repenting of their sin and receiving Christ, they will be united with Christ.

We have that as a guarantee. The Holy Spirit seals that guarantee and bears witness with our spirit that we are his children.

Hence, we know that we have eternal life, 1 John 5 .13. It's not a hope. It's not a vain.

It's not the sin of presumption, as the Catholics call it. It's actually a real knowledge. And we're going to be sharing this glorious gospel of God's sovereign grace with those who come to debate and those who are watching on YouTube and following.

And that's what we'll be standing up for in love, done in love, done in jealousy and peace. I'm becoming very friendly with Matt, even though we completely disagree on the essence of Christianity, where we have a real good mutual respect for each other.

He's actually going to be coming for dinner prior, and hopefully we'll get to catch up with each other's lives as we're becoming somewhat friendly with each other here, as best as I can with a non -believer.

But nonetheless, it'll be done in a very gracious atmosphere. We have enough time for at least one question.

Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, says, I have heard Catholics say the only reason we reject purgatory as Protestants is because we reject the deutero -canonical books that Protestants call the apocryphal books.

But I have heard from knowledgeable Protestants that even those references, albeit false teaching in the apocrypha, that refer to prayer for the dead are never involving the release from torment in the afterlife.

They are all involved with praying that the increase of joy be present for those who have departed us in heaven.

Do you know anything about this? There's only three references that we use that I have right here in the

Catechism. 1 Corinthians 3 .15, 1 Peter 1 .7 of the two in the actual

Bible, and of course 2 Maccabees 12 .46, which again, deuterocanonicals are apocryphal. That particular verse,

I can actually give you a summary of it here. From the Catechism, it says,

Judas Maccabees made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. I would simply say that any allusion here to somebody being delivered from their sin because of somebody praying has absolutely no scriptural basis whatsoever in any way, shape, or form in the

Bible. But what about the apocryphal? Does the text actually ever mention delivering somebody from suffering and purgatory?

Well, from what I've read, no, it does not. It only infers it. But let's look up 2

Maccabees as an actual reference so we can get an exact... Well, we may not have time to do that.

But, well, yeah, we don't have time to do that because we're actually out of time now. I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information.

The website, again, is WOTChurch .com. WOTChurch .com, that's the website for Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island.

The debate is on Saturday, March 30th, 6 .30 p .m. at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville.

Go to WOTChurch .com, WOTChurch .com. Any final words in the last 45 seconds?

No, Chris, again, I just want to encourage the listening audience to lovingly engage their Catholic neighbors with the

Gospel. Let's not fall for any illusion that the Catholic Church has changed from its position from Trent, which has never lifted the anathemas on us as Protestants.

And by sharing the Gospel, you'll find that, in fact, just about every Catholic out there has really no clue, at least the ones who are around.

I've met literally only a handful, probably thousands, that I've witnessed to that had no clue what the

Bible actually teaches about how a person saves. By grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone. And I just want to encourage folks to consider doing that, and also to come to our debate and tune in if they can't make it, and keep me in our position of prayer that day.

All right, and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.