Jeff Durbin argues with Mormon Missionaries

The Book of Mormon isn't true, but the Church is true, for I have prayed about the Book of Mormon, and that peace, the measure of peace that is given to my soul, that is how I know the Book of Mormon is true.

That's how I know the Church is true, that Joseph Smith is a prophet.

Well, Buddhists have prayed about their religion, they believe that they're right. So have Muslims, so have Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, the second God.

Are you saying that prayer is not something that we should seek in the Lord?

Absolutely. Because I'm saying you can't test truth by your subjective experience. I'm saying that Jesus didn't say, Father, thy prayer of the righteous one is thy truth. He said, Father, thy word is truth.

This is truth. Not your experience or my experience. What if in my experience, for a second, in my experience as a thief, I say, it feels right to me to break into someone's house and steal from me, because it feels right to me.

I want to do it, I like it. What would you say to me?

I would say that there's something wrong with your feeling, because most people feel bad when they steal something.

What if I say I don't? I'd say, in my experience, I feel it's right for me to do it. How do you combat my experience? How would you tell me that I'm wrong for stealing?

I would say that you are harming someone else's property.

What if I say I like it? I like harming people. It feels good to me to harm people.

An opinion doesn't change the matter of the fact.

What's the fact?

The fact is that I felt an answer to my prayer.

No, you know what I'm saying? As a thief, talking to a thief. You're talking to a thief now who's listening. I didn't even say I prayed about it. How about this? This will do it. You may even run into these people.

I have. I'm living with my girlfriend, sleeping with my girlfriend, outside of the context of marriage. But you know what? We've prayed about this, and we feel like we have it right before God. But we're not married, and we don't feel like we need to, but we really feel comfortable in our spirit with that.

We feel good about that.

And do you think they really felt that sincere prayer?

They feel like in their heart they did. How do you test that? How do you tell me that I'm wrong? What if I'm in sin? How do you tell me I'm in sin?

Another thing also that helps us judge, that is supported in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, is that that which is good, that which is right, will bring us to Christ. As I've acted on those things I've learned from the Book of Mormon, from the church, as I've acted on those truths that have been shown to me to be true, I've grown to know my Savior better.

I've grown to know that He is my Savior, that Christ did pay for my sins, and that through Him and by Him I can return to my Heavenly Father and enjoy a measure of happiness and peace that I wouldn't be able to receive otherwise.

We have our own testimony, and I understand that. But my point is that how I would tell someone who said that to me, I like to steal if it feels right to me, I would say, God says in His Word, thou shalt not steal.

That's how I test that claim. Someone says to me, I like living outside of marriage and having sex with my girlfriend and living with her and not being married. I'd say, God says you should flee sexual immorality.

Someone says, I'm married but I'm having sex with a woman outside of marriage. I'd say, you should not commit adultery. See, my test for truth is different than yours. I bring somebody back and say, this is from the mouth of God.

It says in the Bible that all Scripture is God-breathed, from His mouth. I would say, God has said, He's the ultimate authority, you should not steal. So you shouldn't steal. And when I say to you as a friend, I say to you, you say that you're saved by your Jesus, but I say to you that your Jesus is not the Jesus of Scripture.

Paul said in the first century, guys, 2 Corinthians chapter 11, he warned about another Jesus, another spirit, another gospel. Guys, that's first century.

Why didn't he warn about that before? He warned about it because they started chaining Jesus. We go back to the original that Paul preached.

So you go to Scripture?

Yeah.

So let's do that real fast.

Could I just go back to a point you were making? You said that God's Word said, thou shalt not steal.

Yeah.

I'm not keeping the commandments to bring this closer to Christ. I may not bring this closer to our Heavenly Father.

Which commandments?

The commandments, all the ones that He's given us. When we keep the commandments, we come to know God.

That would be the difference in the Gospels. I do believe that you should obey the commandments. I do believe that. I do, okay? But the Mormon Church teaches that you can be saved or made right with God by being obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

That you have to do this, this, this, this, temple marriage, baptism, baptism for the dead, yada yada, go down the line real fast. And if you don't do these things, you can't go through exaltation, ultimate salvation, you can't do all those things.

So in other words, the Mormon Church teaches that you have to merit salvation. Of course it's grace, of course it's faith, of course it's the blood of Jesus, but it's also what you do, right?

All those ordinances and principles, this is something that are done only through and by Christ.

Sure, the Galatians and the Heresy believe that. The Judaizers believe that.

Those ordinances and those principles help us to help the Gospel become part of us and us become part of the Gospel. Christ himself was baptized. If he was baptized, should we be baptized? Here's the problem.

Is it Jesus?

No.

And then Christians don't teach that. You should know that. That Jesus fulfilled perfectly God's law and the righteousness that we can't attain because we're all sinners. So when Jesus perfectly obeys God's law, he does that in a place of his people.

So that when you come to Christ, when you come to Christ, that's teaching of Scripture.

Excuse me.

No, finish.

When you come to Christ,.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ is applied to your accounts. If you're trying to get right with God by the blood of Jesus and also your works, Paul says to you, he says that if righteousness comes to the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

He says that you're under the curse of God to fulfill the whole law of God if you choose that path. He says that Christ has become of no effect to you. Whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace.

Do you know what Paul said that to? He said that to people who believe less than you do. He said that to Jewish people who taught his faith in Jesus. Yes, he died for us.

Yes, he's a Messiah.

Yes, he wrote.

They taught this.

Ready?

One thing. Just keep the circumcision. That one part of law. Keep that one part of law to God. Paul says anybody teaching that gospel is to be anathema, eternally separated from God, because. Ready,.

You and I as sinners,.

Right?

We're agreeing. We're sinners. If we attempt to be justified by the law, we fall from grace. Because James says, whoever keeps the whole law, and yes, almost at one point, he's guilty of all of it. You and I before Holy God cannot merit.

And that's why Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him with righteousness.

It is true. We cannot meet the bar that God has set.

No,.

All of us fall short of the glory of God.

Okay.

And because every commandment makes us sinful,.

Shameful,.

And makes us to shame and shy from the presence of God. When we break any of those commandments, that is why it feels like as if when we break one, we break them all. And that is why we,.

We,.

We believe in faith in Christ and we follow his words. And we, we put our faith in him because he's the only one, his merits and his mercy that can bring us to God's presence and to have us to be cleansed from our sins.

So do you believe that his faith in Christ alone that saves you?

No.

Right.

Faith is a principle of action.

Well,.

Because you said no to that. Here's the thing,.

Right?

Paul,.

Here's how you say. You agree with Paul. You're going back to Paul. You just disagree with him because Paul says the Romans 328.

Therefore,.

We conclude that includes him and the apostles.

He says, therefore,.

We conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. You say that you're going back to Paul. Paul disagrees with you.

What about the epistles of James? Faith without works is dead.

Sure.

What about the epistles of James chapter two?

Absolutely. If you show.

What's the context of James?

What's the context of James chapter two?

Does it matter?

Yep. Yeah.

Does it matter what we're talking about?

Yeah.

Joseph Smith.

Ready?

Judas went and hanged himself.

Okay.

Go down and go down and do likewise.

Okay.

There's a context.

The most important thing.

I am not a literary scholar. I do not need to know everything about the Bible. What people say and such.

But you're out teaching people the gospel. So I think that's important.

I don't need to know everything. The most important thing to know is what is true. Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.