Tim Challies Interview

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NoCompromiseRadio .com. Well Wednesdays are the day that I love to interview authors, writers, preachers, bloggers, to think that the

Lord gives us stewardship for gospel ministry. It's pretty amazing to just think in His grace we could represent

Him, preach His Word, write about His Son. And so I like to talk about men who have been entrusted with such a stewardship, and today we're talking to Tim Challies.

Tim, welcome to No Compromise Radio. Thank you. Glad to be here. Hey, Tim, we've had you on before, probably five years ago or so, but I'm sure we've got plenty of new listeners.

Tell us a little bit about yourself in terms of what you love to do, what ministry the

Lord has given you, and then I've got some more specific questions. Sure. So I am an associate pastor at Grace Fellowship Church here in the

Toronto area, serving with Paul Martin, whom I believe you know. I've been married for just coming up on 17 years.

I've got three kids, and then, so those are the two major parts of my life, and then I've got a website as well that I started,

I guess about 12 years ago now, and I've been writing there on a daily basis for about 11 years. And so between those three things, that's pretty much my life right there.

Tim, tell me about the website a little bit, Challies .com. Do you have about, you know, 50 blog posts loaded, so in case you have an appendectomy or something, you don't lose your streak of 11 years?

I do not. So I write every day, or I post something new every day, but pretty much that usually means

I get up early, and I just see what I'd like to talk about that day, and I start to write. So it really is usually just that simple.

I don't plan out in advance very much, and recently I found a little batch of magazine articles

I wrote that were published long enough in the past now that I'm free to use them. So I'm sort of sitting on those, waiting for a vacation now, and I can queue them up for a week.

Well, for our listeners that are not familiar with the website, I'd encourage them to go. There are book reviews, especially helpful, the a la carte postings with a variety of different links to different things that are happening in evangelical

Christianity and beyond. Tim, tell us about the post that's been the most popular, and then maybe the one you got in the most trouble for.

The most popular article I ever wrote was one about sleepovers, of all things. I just explained why my wife and I do not allow our kids to do sleepovers, and that was just based on things we've known, knowing a chief of police and things like that.

We just determined we would not do sleepovers, and I wrote about that. And I think it's been read two and a half million times now.

Obviously, it caught on to the mom blog crowd a little bit, got shared through Facebook a lot, and it just sort of took off.

And the least popular thing I ever wrote, I guess that would probably be a review of the book,

The Shack, when it came out. I found a copy of the book, and I read it, and I put a rather extensive review out there.

And it got read many, many times, and got me a lot of flack. And let me tell you, the worst, or maybe it's the best insult

I've ever gotten, is it was after I reviewed that book, and somebody sent me an email, and he said, he was so angry, and he said,

I can just imagine you sitting there with a shack in one hand and your Bible in the other hand.

And he said that as if it was a bad thing. So, I don't know, I thought it was a pretty good insult. Is there going to be a new

Shack movie? Is there a Shack movie out? I keep hearing about one, but as far as I know, it's not in the immediate future anyways.

I'm sure it's going to be appalling when it does come. Tim, I think you're a good resource for analyzing certain things that come out that are close to Christianity.

So in light of that, what would be your advice and your words of wisdom to our listeners with shows like A .D.,

Exodus, Noah, from that kind of genre, and then into the Shack, what do you typically tell people as a pastor who,

I'm sure you get asked this question regularly, what do you tell them? You know what? I don't get asked that question very much, which

I think just shows that the people in my church just aren't that interested in those kinds of shows.

And I don't know if maybe that's the difference between Canadian and American evangelicalism, but the shows are probably a little bit harder to access up here, and I just don't think people are that interested in them.

I suppose a major release like Noah would get some people, but I would just tell people to be very, very careful to understand that every single one of these shows, in one way or another, seems to mess with Scripture a little bit here, a little bit there.

And so, I suppose maybe there's some entertainment value, but certainly be very careful thinking that this really has any clear connection to the

Bible, or that this movie actually described the truth of Scripture. Tim, tell our listeners a little bit about the difference between natural revelation and creation and specific revelation, especially when it comes to learning.

So what you'll have is people say, well, I'm a visual learner, therefore these shows help versus what the text reveals, and I'll just give you a little insight so you know where I'm coming from.

I was reading today the account in Mark 5 where Jesus heals the demoniac, the man with the legion of demons, or the man named legion, or the demon rather named legion.

And as I was reading it, the writing style of Mark just drew me in. It was like I was there.

Here's this Holy Spirit -inspired writer, and with the chains and the shackles and the strength, the crying, the cutting, the stones.

Help our listeners understand that this is the way God teaches us specifically, and there's drama and excitement, and I hope

Christians just read their Bible more. Yeah. Yeah, I would love to see Christians do both more, so I'd love to see

Christians get into their Bible to understand this is the one, inerrant, infallible way that God speaks to us.

So get into your Bible and read it. And then let your Bible drive you outside so you can see what

God has created, because God does speak through creation as well. Just read Psalm 19, you'll see, here's

God speaking through what He has created. And I think in our tradition, our Reformed tradition, we can downplay that a little bit.

But then let that drive you right back to Scripture. You see creation. And now, man, I want to know the

God who made all this. I want to know the God who's displaying Himself in this.

So go right back to your Bible, because that's where you get the specific, absolute truth of who this

God is and what He's done, and equally important, the truth of who you are and what you need.

Tim, as you know, there's a difference between natural revelation and special revelation.

But I was reading Matthew 7 recently, and, excuse me, Matthew 6. In special revelation,

Jesus drives us outside for the anxious people. He says, go look at the birds.

And for a long time, I always thought birdwatchers were, you know, it was the geriatric crowd, and they have their binoculars, and they're out there looking, and my neighbor likes to take pictures of birds.

And either I'm older now and or wiser, but I think, okay, I do get anxious.

I have kids, and the world's a wicked place, and how do I solve the problem of anxiousness and trust in the

Lord? And the Lord says, go out and look at the birds. Right. Yeah, and you look at Solomon.

He wanted to know wisdom. He wanted to know how to be a hard worker, and so he went and watched the ant, or he wanted to know what are the consequences of being lazy.

So he walks by a vineyard, and he sees that the walls have crumbled, and he sees there a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber and want, like an armed man.

So if we just go out and look at creation, there's so much we can learn. And again, let that drive you back to the

Bible to understand who this God is, to understand what this God has done. That special revelation is also far more specific than the general revelation.

Both are good, both are true, both are beautiful. And they ought to be very, very complimentary.

Well, Tim, I hate to say this, but I think the Canadian side of Niagara Falls is more awesome than the

American side. I tend to agree. Okay, good. Let's talk a little bit more about Canada and the

United States. I know it's pretty similar in a lot of regards with media and because of geography, but how do you, as a

Canadian, see American evangelicalism? Because you are kind of one area code removed.

Are there any trends in evangelicalism that you can see that maybe we can't see?

You know, it's interesting being on this side of the border where evangelicals make up a very small percentage of the population.

I think less than 1 % of people now would be true evangelicals in the sense that they would really believe what the

Bible says. So, it's a very small minority here. And it's very interesting to then look at America and see something like a

Bible Belt or to see evangelicalism being a really strong force in the culture, and to be much more cohesive.

It looks to the Canadian mind, it looks an awful lot like big business. So, it can be very confusing in that sense.

Tim, how about persecution? Tell our listeners a little bit about what Canada requires via the legalities, what you can talk about, what you can't talk about, what about homosexuality, what's coming for America, basically.

Well, it's been interesting that lately there's been quite a few articles that have been written about the situation in Canada, and they've been written for an

American audience to say that exact same thing. Brace yourselves, let's look to Canada and see what's happening so we can know how these new laws and how this will affect us.

But the interesting thing is, I don't really recognize Canada in most of those articles. So, while there may be isolated incidents in Canada of people being arrested or people being facing real persecution for their beliefs, especially about sexuality and sexual immorality,

I just haven't seen it, and I don't know anybody who's really faced it. So, there may be individuals who have done that, but it's not...

Right now, we have freedom to preach what we want to preach and to say what we want to say. Now, here's the thing.

Canada tends to take the leap first, and that's what we've done. Gay marriage here has been legal since,

I think, 1995. But we count on America to kind of radicalize us, to get us stirred up.

So, the culture has shifted now, largely because of America and through American media, and that is now emboldening people in Canada to start to push.

And so, I think now that the cultural weight is here, we will start to face the same measures of persecution that you'll face in America.

So, I don't think we're too far ahead of you in that way. Talking to Tim Challies today, Challies .com.

I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with the ministry that the Lord has given him. Tim, as a

Canadian, you look into evangelicalism, and there are these movements, large organizations together for the gospel,

Gospel Coalition, Shepherds Conference. Everyone's kind of a unique entity. They're not all the same, but they all draw in a lot of folks.

How do you, a Canadian, look at this, you know, so much to be said positively in these things?

What's your analysis of them? I certainly thank God for them, and I like to distinguish between a couple of different groups of them.

So, something like Shepherds Conference has been going on for a long time now and has a real legacy there of faithfulness, of raising up men, of training men, of impacting future leaders.

So, and I'd say the same, something like Ligonier Ministries has just been doing this since long before it was cool to be a

Calvinist. That's a relatively recent development. Together for the gospel, I think they have a very limited objective that they're achieving very well, which is to just bring people together and to influence them, and to sort of raise up the next generation of leaders, of people who can be the voice of the

Church. Gospel Coalition seems like the most ambitious of them, in that I think Gospel Coalition is trying to,

I don't want to say control the conversation in the Reformed world or Christian world, but more just put bounds on it, put these boundaries around it and say, these are the topics we'd like to talk about, and these are the ones that we think would not be good for unity right now.

And so, I think each of them has their own message, and I think each of them has done a lot of good.

Do you think in 20 years, any of those will exist? Well, I think with both

Ligonier and Shepherds Conference, we don't know what happens after the leaders go to be with the

Lord, and in 20 years, it's likely that both of them will no longer be there. Together for the gospel,

I'd be surprised if it existed. I'd be surprised if they would even want it to at that point. I get the sense it's meant to be more limited.

And Gospel Coalition, yeah, I believe they intend to make it a lasting, long -lived organization.

I can't imagine what it would look like in 20 years. It's still in its infancy, and I think it's still, as an organization, learning who and what it is.

Tim, maybe the thing that I've benefited from you the most is the book Sexual Detox, A Guide for Guys Who Are Sick of Porn, Cruciform Press, 2010.

I think you had it for free for a long time. Maybe you still do. What's been the reaction to that book and those biblical thoughts that you've put on paper?

Yeah, it's been difficult. I wrote the first blog series and then the book just to speak to people in my own life, people

I've been interacting with. Really, it was the young men in my own church. So I started writing, and I ended up creating that series, and that just brought this big outpouring of really the things that were very difficult to hear.

People telling about their addiction, or wives writing in to tell about how their husband had become addicted, and just lots and lots of things like that.

Over time, I think the book has been helpful to people as they've tried to work through that particular issue, as they've really begun to take confidence that, you know what,

I can overcome this. When I wrote the book, Christians weren't talking about pornography all that much.

Now, of course, there's many, many books written on it, and I think Christians, everybody knows now that this is a serious problem and that it's okay to work on it.

It's okay to speak to your pastor about it. He's not going to be shocked to find out that you're struggling in that way. Tim, you have a wise way about yourself in terms of your writing and how you say things.

In that book, you're more becoming than I am, because often I say to ladies, if you catch your husband looking at pornography and it's confirmed, then a sledgehammer to the laptop is what

I suggest. Yeah. Well, if your right hand causes you to sin, Jesus says to cut it off, right?

And I don't think there's a lot of people who are willing to take that kind of radical action in response to their sin.

And I know a young man who's really eager to do battle with sin when he leaves his laptop in my office through the week and he just opens it up on Sunday and checks his email and then shuts it down and puts it away for the week.

That's telling me that this guy really wants to do battle with his sin. But a lot of people want to live the same life and have the same patterns and somehow think that something will change if they just keep following the same patterns that have led them into sin.

Suddenly those patterns will lead them into holiness? That seems very, very unlikely. So I agree that there's a time for the sledgehammer on the laptop.

Absolutely. Tim, do you think there's an element of laziness involved in pornography in the sense that for single guys,

God has given them, rightly and even before the fall, hormones and a desire for intimacy?

And they're to use that, in my opinion, to go out and be godly and then go win a godly girl.

And then for husbands as well, where if they're kind to their wives and self -sacrificial, there's an opportunity for intimacy.

But then there's a disagreement, argument, the man's lazy, and so it's easier to go to a computer.

To what degree is laziness a factor in this? I think it can be huge. And indeed for the young man,

I think it's a lot easier just to look at that and to act out on your own rather than to actually go and pursue a bride.

And that those urges, those hormones, can be direction to go and pursue a life.

It can also be direction to rely on the promises of God, right? You'll never know how good God is. You'll never know that—you know what?

You truly can find satisfaction without sin. You won't know that unless you actually let

God test you and you endure that test. And then you'll see, yeah, God is good.

I don't need this. I didn't need to act out in this way. And for married men, absolutely.

It can be—let's be honest, it can be difficult to be married. It can be difficult to carry out a good, healthy sex relationship within your marriage.

And so I think for a lot of men, it's a lot easier just to act out on their own than to pursue their wife, to woo their wife, to befriend their wife, to do all those things that make sexual intimacy that much easier.

Tim, I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 10, 13, as you were speaking, No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.

God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability. But with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape.

And then sometimes we forget the end of the verse, that you may be able to endure it.

And so I think lots of people, and myself included, we want the way out. We want the escape hatch.

But here in 1 Corinthians 10, it is escape through endurance.

Absolutely. So the endurance is where you get to see that God's promises are good.

You get to see that God's promises are good. If you endure for a moment and then give in to sin, you'll never know

God as well or as intimately as you can. You'll never see how good he is, how kind he is, how merciful he is, what he's actually got waiting for you, if you'll endure.

Tim, I was on your blog recently, and on the April 9th edition, or what you wrote on that day, the most important thing my parents did.

Summarize the article for us, because I think it was insightful, and maybe it'll spur some parents on in the light of who they are in Christ to leave a legacy like that too.

Sure. Yeah, I think the most important thing my parents did was simply let me see them living out their faith.

And so my parents didn't only have family devotions. I know that if I came down early in the morning,

I would see them sitting privately on their own, reading God's Word and praying. And so I knew that their faith was not just one they put on display for us, but it was real.

It was something they really believed, something that was true to them. And I think there's a danger as a parent, this constant danger you face, to be better in front of your kids than you are on your own, to live one way in front of them, hoping it will catch on, but then to be lazy or to be sinful off on your own.

And for my parents, I know, I saw them living out their faith, even when I wasn't supposed to be there. And that spoke volumes to me.

I loved Ligon Duncan's message at the Shepherds Conference, the Inerrancy Conference in 2015.

And didn't he say something to the same effect where there are people that go off to college and university and higher places of learning, and the

Bible systematically destroyed or attempted to destroy the

Bible. And then he or some of his students would say, yes, but my mom didn't believe that way.

My dad didn't believe that way. What a legacy of teaching your children.

I believe in inerrancy, sufficiency, the authoritative Word of God. It is God -breathed.

Right. Absolutely. And what a joy when your parents live that out in front of you and your parents are simply people of the book.

I'm preparing a sermon this week on 2 Timothy 3, and it's interesting to see

Paul there talking about, as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you've been acquainted with the sacred writing.

So, context, we know that Timothy's mother and grandmother were believers and that they had raised them around the sacred writings.

He doesn't say that you memorized lots of catechism questions, that you had great knowledge, anything like that.

It's just you were raised around the Bible, and the Bible did its work. And what a joy that is for us, that we can raise our kids around the

Bible and expect that God will do His work through His powerful Word. We've got a couple minutes left,

Tim. As I'm trying to be a good steward of the children that the Lord has given me, I often say to myself,

I don't want to be a cranky old Calvinist parent. I would like to be a parent who, yes,

I'd like to be godly and sober, but not somber. I want my children to say from a very early age,

I want to be just like mom and dad. I want to have fun and joy. And I think Danny Akin told me that the number one advice he has for parents is to have fun with your children.

And he wasn't excluding all the exhortations in Scripture for godliness. But don't you think cranky

Calvinists can also be cranky Calvinistic parents? David Yeah, absolutely.

And man, I want the same thing. I want my kids to want to be around me. I want my kids to see me living a real life in this world, you know?

We can have fun in this world. It's okay to enjoy this world. It's okay.

In fact, it's better. It glorifies God if we enjoy the pleasures in this world. Not if we enjoy them ultimately, but if we enjoy them properly, we enjoy them to God's glory.

Man, God wants us. He gave us beauty. He gave us taste buds. He gave us nerves, all of these things for a good reason.

We can enjoy life in this world. Well, sometimes I'll tell my children, you know, what if everything

God made for food was, it just tasted like mud or dirt? Or then for the older crowd,

I say, what if it was Soylent Green? Remember Soylent Green? Tim I remember Soylent Green. David And we would just have to eat.

I mean, my dog eats the same dog food every single day. And it's just, you know, utilitarian for the dog.

Anyway, Tim, I've got about 30 seconds left. What's your new book? Anything new with the ministry you want to let our folks know about?

I'm working on a book on productivity that I hope will be out in the next few months. And I hope,

I believe people will find that interesting and hopefully helpful as well. Talking to Tim Challies today.

Challies .com. You can pick up some of his books. He's got a publishing company there. Many helpful resources for the church, for the evangelical church.

And I'd highly recommend the site. Tim, thanks for taking the time today to be on No Compromise Radio.

We appreciate your ministry. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me. God bless you. 508 -835 -3400.

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