Pacifism

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and

the Edification of the Saints before we dig into our topic.

We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you.

I'm Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Durham Chris Kiesler David Casson.

Sadly, Andrew Hudson is not with us tonight because he's got a little bit of a bug.

He's feeling a little bit ill.

So we're praying for him and we hope to see him back soon in the seat across from us.

But we're gonna go ahead and get started with a question that we had Come in back in May when we were

finished recording for season 3 and we're gonna go ahead and read it now.

Does Romans 12 9 through 21 teach that Christians have to be pacifists?

What about fighting evil.

Don't we also have a responsibility to fight at times.

Michael you want to start us off?

Sure, so Romans 12 verses 9 through 21.

So here's what the passage says.

Let love be without hypocrisy.

Abhor what is evil.

Cling to what is good.

Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love in Honor giving preference to

one another not lagging in diligence.

Fervent in spirit serving the Lord rejoicing in hope patient in tribulation continuing steadfastly in prayer.

Distributing to the need of the Saints given to hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you.

Bless and do not curse.

Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep.

Be of the same mind toward one another.

Do not set your mind on High things but associate with the humble.

Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Repay no one evil for evil.

Have regard for good things in the sight of all men if it is possible as much as Depends on you.

Live peaceably with all men beloved.

Do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath for it is written vengeance is mine.

I will repay says the Lord.

Therefore if your enemy is hungry feed him if he is thirsty give him a drink for in so doing

you will keep coals of fire on his head.

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

So in this passage in this series of exhortations wherein

Paul is speaking to the Saints in Rome about

how to live Rather than be conformed to the world.

Live.

Transformed by the renewing of their Minds living in accordance unto Christ as the

body of Christ there are going to be a lot of things that are not the norm when it comes

to the world.

The way that other system was working and so all of these different virtues

and Actions and ways of feeling and thinking and speaking and doing are

modeled after Christ and they're not modeled after Antichrist.

That which is against Christ whatever is in the world.

Lust of the flesh lust of the eyes the boastful pride of life.

This is all opposite of that.

Included in these exhortations are things that may seem to lend itself towards pacifism.

Where.

And let's let's think about a definition for pacifism.

What do we what do we mean when we say that.

What do we think that the questioner means by that?

Do we think.

Well, it's more than just like non -aggression.

I mean it typically I mean even if there is a you know Webster's dictionary definition of it people usually think of

you know, the Amish.

You think of people who you.

I'm a pacifist.

Even if you attack me, I am NOT going to retaliate.

I don't engage in in war conscientious objector all that stuff but it's also with even within personal relationships that

if you get attacked I'm gonna do whatever I can to Get out of that because

violence in and of itself is wrong.

Violence begets more violence that kind of idea.

That's I think that's the the modern usage of the term.

Yeah, well and I hear people claim an eye for an eye makes a whole world blind.

So let's go by that standard if someone does violence to me if I do violence back.

There's no benefit there.

So I'm a pacifist, right?

So you have the.

Profile of who might be doing evil to Christians and Paul is addressing that there are those who

persecute and so Paul says bless those who Persecute you who run you

down and try to make your life Terrible and miserable and they're trying to put you

into a hard place.

So you finally give up what you believe trying to put you out of existence one way or the other and we have

This very short pithy statement in verse 17 repay no one

evil for evil.

Okay, and then verse 18 if it is possible as much as depends on you live peaceably with all men.

You can't keep other people from trying to be hostile to you and attacking you but much as depends on you live Peacefully

with all men and then verse 19 is very strong Beloved do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath.

So put all together.

It sounds like no Christian no follower of Jesus should ever act in a hostile

Violent way against anyone even your enemies even those who want to do you harm so it doesn't

seem to fit that you would pick up a a rifle or pick up a weapon and

Try to do harm to people trying to harm you based on what you've seen here.

But that's not exactly what is being said very particularly.

This is not a instruction to affirm evil.

Having its right -of -way.

Basically saying evil, you know, you are you should come straight through and I'm going to lay down

help pave that road.

Right, that's that's not what's being said here you're going to be interacting with those who are evil with those

who persecute you in particular ways that are going to Frustrate them and oppose them even

feeding your hungry enemy and giving a drink to your thirsty Enemy is heaping coals of fire on his head and verse 21

says do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil by good.

So what you're doing in and of your own Capacity in following Christ is you're trying to overcome

evil for evil stop evil divert evil.

You're not simply going to lay down.

It's not a situation in which you're going to do nothing.

There's a lot that you are going to be doing and it's not going to be helpful.

Right when we're looking at the text We just read through that in verse 17 through 19 There seems to be a

timing element to it.

So in verse 17, it says repay no one evil for evil.

In 19 beloved.

Do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath for it is written vengeance is mine.

I will repay says the Lord.

So this seems to be talking about people seeking Vengeance after the fact

after evil has been done.

What about before evil has been done or evil is being done in the moment?

Is there room for a godly person to stop that evil to cease it from happening without it

being vengeance?

Well, it's kind of covered in as much as it depends upon you.

Let be at peace with all men.

So, you know, you're not making yourself a target and you're not, you know be rude.

You know as much as it depends on you, you know be cool.

But if those things do happen to you, you know, that's from from what we're saying right now, you don't take your own

Personal revenge which is very prevalent in most ancient cultures.

I spent time in Afghanistan in sub -saharan Africa in Iraq in

Turkey and there are blood feuds that go back not just generations but go back centuries and

somebody knew ran over somebody's goat and then They got a little bit more heated and they got into a fight and then

somebody got killed this person got killed.

We have The whole you know, the Hatfields and McCoy's and we have that in the in the in the u .s.

But these blood feuds versus vengeance and vengeance upon vengeance upon vengeance.

That is what?

Christianity is saying No, this has to stop and you see you saw that in the ancient world.

You can read about it in the Old Testament.

But you have at least this Christian principle and it does quote an Old Testament verse.

But it's Christian principle that vengeance is not yours to take.

You have to leave room for the wrath of God who will take vengeance because if you take your own this cycle of

bloodshed Continues society itself degrades you have the

state then coming in and taking Vengeance or it's God taking vengeance.

But using the sword of the state to do so because that ends the cycle.

What do you guys think?

Well, I was just thinking to your own household of like you're talking about preventing destruction before it comes, right?

You're right because you say you've got an individual that breaks into your house does your stuff?

What what do you do.

You go out and get it or say he kills a family member.

You go and kill him?

No, obviously not.

There are pathways you seek justice through the state.

But someone's breaking into your house and actively trying to do evil.

Is there any room to stop that?

Yes, lock the doors right lock your windows like these are and we take these as for granted.

These are basic norms in the Western world that prevent people from doing these evils to you.

This is this is step one, right lock everything up bring the valuables into safes or inside be good

at target practice.

These steps are Preventative and not like a punitive thing.

You're not taking out any sort of punishment on somebody who's done anything.

You're preventing these things from happening and we're talking about like law like bring sure bringing it to the government.

The government has also made provision for you in places like the state of Oklahoma to defend Your castle

to defend your property and the people within it and I think when we're talking about something like this

What would we say to the government's?

Giving you the leeway to defend your family with lethal force.

Does that go against these principles laid out in Scripture or is that something that the government has a Some sort

of a permission from the Lord as his deacon to do so.

Is that within the realm of authority for government to actually sanction violence, you

know letters of Mark.

You know those kinds of things.

Does the government have that authority?

So I think the key part of this question is does this passage teach just the

universality of Passivism.

Leave room for the wrath of God.

That person comes into your house.

Even if the government says you can kill him is this passage saying don't do that.

Leave room for the wrath of God.

Is it teaching?

Passivism, I think.

I think we've clearly.

You're not supposed to take your own personal revenge, right?

But does that mean you can't or should not defend your family?

Is that with this passage?

I think that that's the heart of the question.

In another thing too is at the beginning of the passage he's talking about loving good things and being productive rather than

destructive.

One of the things that we as Fathers have produced with our wives is a family and it's a good thing

and I think he's talking about the things that you should be doing at the beginning of the passage from 9 till

16 and then he starts going to the negatives.

Don't do this.

Don't do this.

Do these things at the beginning of this passage?

Don't do these things and this happens a lot in Scripture where it's like it tells you what to do like the positives

Of production and then the do -nots of don't destroy on the back end of it and

it's it's kind of similar to the way that the table the law comes to us as well as the positives

versus the negatives and.

Additionally, I think part of this question is trying to make sense of how the Bible fits together right, so when

you read a passage like Romans 12 verses 9 to 22 or you read a passage like

Matthew chapter 5 verses You know 36 through the end how are you supposed to

square that with a bunch of other passages and How do you square that with how you have

received?

Christian tradition that it's a good thing for a man to protect his family and home and property

and to do so With weapons from within his own home on his own property.

And why do we think that's a good thing and is the Bible telling us that it's not a good thing.

Should we live in houses that are unlocked should we live without front doors?

Should we like when Jesus think about the way Jesus talks about the family and talks about domestic things and

Agricultural things with with assumptions in place.

For instance, he talks about not laying up your treasure on earth.

Why because thieves?

Break in and Steal.

Okay.

Now Jesus a solution to this is not To leave all your stuff outside

right because by putting things and actually the Greek word is dig through because of the adobe

walls and There's only one door in these houses that they lived in and no but no thief would go through the front door

they come in through the back wall and they would dig through to get to the storeroom and Steal

whatever, you know stuff that you had that you didn't want anybody else to have.

So Jesus a solution to this is not don't have anything in your storeroom.

His solution is not well.

They're breaking in and stealing because obviously you're oppressing them and therefore what are

you doing living in a house fool?

Right, that's not the solution when he gives the illustration about if you're gonna go plunder a strongman's

possessions.

What's the plan?

How does this heist get pulled off?

Step one find the strongman.

What is Jesus assuming there in the Illustration everybody knows the man's supposed to protect his possessions protect

his house.

That's just as it's just assumed.

This is also You know seen in Jesus's illustration of being a good Shepherd.

That the good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep the good the good Shepherd defends his sheep puts himself in the danger.

He's even the door, you know between the the fold and the outside and everything else.

But what about the hireling the hireling doesn't care and he runs away.

So you see the negative Versus the positive there are a lot of assumptions that are just built into the

biblical worldview.

It's it's a good thing for a man to protect his home protect his family like a shepherd would protect his flock.

So a man should protect his family.

This is these are all basic assumptions that go all the way to the root of what it means for us to be made in The image of God

and being stewards of the blessing of being man and woman Together in marriage having

children part of being fruitful multiplying and filling the earth and so doing it is.

Having that that sanctity of the of the family and property to bring that about when God

Brought about a new order of things with the first covenant that he made with Noah.

What did he address?

He addressed the issue of that widespread violence that in the name of Cain and Lamech was just being done everywhere.

And every man was going around grabbing whatever woman he wanted.

It was a Marxist dream, right women were common property to all right.

This was the Enlightenment principle.

Everybody grabbed whatever woman you want.

Everybody kill each other as long as you you're stronger than the next person.

This is the dream of the Enlightenment.

This is the whole idea.

Well when God Changed all of that and judged the earth judged humanity for

all their violent wicked ways.

He very clearly told Noah here's how it's going to be you get to eat the animals go hog wild.

But if an animal sheds a man's blood that animal dies and if a man sheds man's

blood By man that man's blood will be shed and every brother takes up that cause and so the the

brethren of the one slain have to bring about that Appropriate end and again, we have these

families that grow larger and larger into Nations nations with their just these

very large ethnic groups that are nations and they're going to have to punish Evildoers and so when you get to

Romans 12 and you're seeing how to follow Christ and it's Repay no one

evil for evil.

We're also told in the very same passage leave room for vengeance.

It doesn't say call vengeance a bad thing.

It's Make space for it carve out hope for it.

Have a plan for it count on it have vengeance against evildoers those who have

done you evil.

Make sure that vengeance against them is a part of your calculations.

But let God do it in his way.

What's the plan?

The plan is to read Romans 12 and then read Romans 13.

The plan is leave room for wrath leave room for vengeance.

So pay your taxes.

Because your taxes fund the government, right?

So Romans 13 says pay your taxes and and the government will punish evildoers.

That's the whole idea.

And of course, you know in our particular form of government We are supposed to exercise good citizenship and tell

has Christians point the finger at the magistrates and say This is what an evildoer looks like and does and you

should be punishing these evildoers and doers of righteousness should be praised.

Here's some examples that you could praise and inform.

Inform the magistrate who is the deacon and the servant of God?

What God has to say about what evil is and what righteousness is so they know who to punish.

That now that doesn't answer the question about self -defense, right?

Well because particularly in Luke.

Why is Jesus telling them to go out and buy self -defense weapons?

Well, that's that's why I want to go to next.

Yeah, when Jesus is giving them instructions, he he reminded them by in in Luke 22

verse 35.

He said to them when I sent you out without money bag knapsack and sandals.

Did you lack anything?

So they said nothing they were going through the land of Israel.

Hey, we're followers of Jesus of Nazareth all that amazing rabbi who does miracles.

He's great, you know.

Then he said to them but now but now because everything's about to change.

He who has a money bag let him take it and likewise a knapsack and he who has no sword.

Let him sell his garment and buy one like your bedtime knapsack.

The thing you're gonna use is a pillow your extra cloak sell it.

You need a sword.

You're gonna need a sword.

Why.

For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in me.

And he was numbered with the transgressors right from Isaiah for the things concerning me have an end.

So they said Lord look there are two swords and he said to them it is enough.

But what's his point his point is I'm about to become an outlaw and all you all gonna be outlaws as well.

So the state the Sanhedrin is going to call you call me enemy number one and everybody who's with

me.

You're gonna be on the most wanted list and you guys are gonna be outlaws.

So you are going to need to provide for your own self -defense because the state will no longer cover

that right now.

Thank God the state that we have is not so large and penetrating that they're

housing Soldiers and police officers and sheriffs in our homes.

That's a good thing.

We don't want a state that is that domineering.

There are areas in our life where the state is just not going to be able To protect us and it's in the interest of a righteous

state to have a citizenry that will defend themselves against evildoers.

And that would retard the doings of the wicked and we have a slight Form of every man,

you know.

Especially in Oklahoma every man deputized to defend his own home his own property.

If somebody's in your house not supposed to be there you can shoot him and you're done if someone's on your property.

You can brandish a weapon and say get out of here and make my day and they're supposed to leave.

That is in the interest of the state and it's very biblical.

It's a biblical worldview to say well the the state needs to punish evildoers.

That's true.

But the state can't get to every single place every single area and they want to retard

The doing of evil and so the citizenry is there and they are a part of that home

invaders.

Better watch out they could die very easily in the state of Oklahoma other states go hog Wild getting onto somebody's

property and messing around not a good good idea in the state of Oklahoma other places.

They can do all they want in two different places.

You see the rise of all manner of wickedness and crime and murder and violence and other places you don't see

as much just like before the flood you see you see there's a difference between before and after.

God has a way of Retarding evil and there's a way of taking vengeance and he is

ordained the state as a as a magistrate to do that.

That doesn't mean that we don't engage in self -defense, but that this is where we're trying to stop the evil from happening.

Now let's say that we're unsuccessful.

We're unsuccessful in keeping evil from happening and we feel terrible about evil happening to our family to our

property and so on.

What do we do then?

That's the Romans 13 the magistrate the civil government is God's servant to punish

evil.

It was given the sword to exact so we don't go after them right.

Like this person did me evil.

So I'm gonna go after so right so we I have a neighbor.

We all have a neighbor who lives near our facility.

And he was he was in the news a few years back.

And so this is not like a secret or anything is his name is file.

He's a retired firefighter and file has all a large assortment of various weapons from various

technology.

He loves weapons and he used to be a knife sharpener.

Anyway, he's a very generous man.

He loves to walk his dogs and truck come by one day and he's out there walking his

walking his dogs enjoying his his walk and Somebody who leans out the window says hey, man, we need some money for

gas.

We're about to run out and so he reaches in his he gets his wallet out cuz he's gonna give them some gas money.

Well, they grab his wallet in his wrist and he's grabbing his wall.

He won't let go they take off in the truck.

There's three of them in the truck and he just starts getting dragged and they finally drop them and they run over him.

Run over his knee with the back end of the truck.

Okay, evil doers.

Yeah, all this property put him in horrible danger.

Somehow his leg did not you know disappear and.

And I saw this fire truck down here.

I come down and check on him all these kinds of things and they had taken away in the hospital to the hospital ambulance.

So all this happened hits the news story.

These people were three days out of jail.

Three days out of jail and they were already robbing an old man.

Evil -doers.

Okay.

So Philo goes and Visits them in prison.

He's a Gideon tries to get them the scriptures.

He witnesses to them and then he goes and spends Thanksgiving with their families.

Preaches the gospel to them all kinds of people start getting saved.

So The government did what they were supposed to do arrest them put them in prison all sorts of you know.

You guys are evil and you're bad and then Philo is like, well now I'm free to overcome

evil with good.

Right.

So in some some sense is we think about that kind of scenario.

That's exactly the kind of way that we should approach as Christians.

So you mentioned the Imago day earlier and this being.

Something that we're rooting this on when we're thinking about that and the government's right role

staying in its lane and also wanting individual citizens to Take up their duties to defend and

prevent these things.

The principle of order amorous or rightly ordered loves.

Sometimes when I hear a pacifist like the quiz the quote was going back to the original question pacifism.

Not defending one's property family self, whatever.

I'm hearing a Misordering of loves or a misordering of duty when I when I hear some of the pacifist

arguments.

It's a natural affection to want to protect one's own life to protect one's wife's life sons

daughters and property.

How do you view the the ordered loves that we should have?

And have reshaped by the gospel.

How do you find that fitting in here specifically with the text and with the question that we had?

So the question is okay.

So does this call for pacifism?

Well again, this question is as Chris was identifying this is talking about what happens

after you've been wronged.

How are you to approach this given that if our affections are rightly ordered?

Okay, what then we ought to you know, obviously our love for God supremely and

then we ought to love others.

Rightly even as we steward what God has entrusted to us in righteousness.

We're going to in our love for God supremely.

We are not going to take vengeance as our own because that belongs to God.

Okay, but that's a different scenario than Trying to stop the evil from happening in the

first place.

Okay, and here's a way here's a way that we can think about it when John the Baptist was preaching

at the Jordan River and he was calling for Fruits of repentance the fruits of repentance

are repentance themselves.

Repentance is metanoia that turning with the mind.

But the fruits of repentance are the way in which the John would see that these folks were ready for baptism.

Okay, and when he was speaking to the to the soldiers these may have been

straight -up Roman legionnaires or they they may have been some of the the locals

that were often brought in.

You know from from around the area, but they weren't, you know true Romans.

But they would be still hired on for for security work and details and so on he told these soldiers he

didn't say to them if you really want to repent and Get ready for the kingdom of God.

What you need to do is change your career.

You know soldier can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He didn't say that he said stop taking bribes.

Stop extorting people.

Stop, you know, they'd be content with your wages.

Like that's how you'd be good soldier be content with your wages.

All right, don't oppress people because just because you have a sword and you can force people to do things.

Right.

Well in the same sense when you look at Romans 13.

There's nothing there in Romans 13 or any other part of the New Testament.

That says that Christians can't be in the service of the Magistrate just be a good one.

Just be a good one.

What is that saying to us?

It's not instructions unto Pacifism it's instructions in for

righteousness be live in this way.

So the soldiers don't have to stop being soldiers.

The magistrate doesn't have to stop being a magistrate in order to be a Christian.

They don't have to repent from that.

So also there's no sense in which and that's and that's rightly ordered that they should be doing that.

But a husband does not have to repent from being a husband.

And a father doesn't have to repent from being a father to be a good Christian.

He should protect his wife.

Christ certainly protects his bride.

We don't have to keep from protecting our children.

God promises to protect his children.

It is Christ like it is godly for us to protect our wives and our children.

We don't have to stop doing that in order to be good Christians.

Now some people think that you have to they overread this text.

They say okay because it says don't take vengeance.

That means don't engage in any kind of self -defense.

That's not what it's saying you're reading far more into it than is actually there so there's a whole.

Cultural context behind This section.

And you talked about just the use of the state and he went all the way back to Genesis.

Paul.

References and just as mine I will repay and that's out of Deuteronomy 32 you know, he's referencing the Old

Testament law and then you said there's this context as cultural understanding of Private

property.

Love for your neighbor, but also protection of that property.

Protection of those animals and and if those animals are Becoming a nuisance or goring

other people then you're responsible for that and it's this whole idea of Not

just individual rights, but you know personal property, but you know.

You have a responsibility to steward that and what's the even in the New Testament says a man who doesn't care for his

family is even worse than an unbeliever.

So it's.

We have to keep those things in mind that this is not to be read in a vacuum.

I did want to be in keeping it the with the theme of keeping things in Context the beginning of

chapter 12 and 1 through 8.

It seems to be talking about Christians interacting with other Christians.

You talk about the gifts of grace.

Starting in in verse 5.

So we though many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another having gifts that

differ according to the grace given to Us.

He's talking about this is how you kind of live with each other better.

You know, we were gifted when you know.

The hand doesn't say why am I not an eye.

The eye is better than the foot those kinds of things, you know.

Do things with cheerfulness, you know, let love be genuine and this is where the the section actually starts the one under

question here.

Let love be genuine or what is evil?

I'll do one another in showing honor and then as we start moving through the chapter.

Towards the end you get to Romans 13 and you're dealing with the pagan government.

So where does it stop?

Dealing with Christian to Christian and you're dealing with society as a as a whole verse 14 bless those who persecute

you.

Yeah.

So verse 14 because verse 13 distributed the need to the Saints given to hospitality and the verse 14 says bless those who persecute you.

Bless and do not curse and then you're gonna interweave to go back to rejoice those who rejoice.

We please we be the same mind for one another and then it kind of talks about your own heart.

But then back to 17 repay no one evil for evil.

So all of a sudden you're cut you're back into it so there's an interweaving but there's a turning of the corner towards these

things and It you know, then comes to the you know, how are you going to how you're gonna interact

with the government, right?

So your taxes, yeah pay your taxes, but you know, but again, you know, this was an awful horrible

wicked pagan government that at some point not so long

after the letter to the Romans was written was in deep alliance with.

The.

Sanhedrin to completely wipe out Christians.

Nero for 42 months was just trying to wipe out all the Saints all the Christians.

So at that point this is not you know.

This is not something where it's like, you know.

Be sure when when Nero's boys come by to pick you up for a torch burning at his garden that

you say well I gotta go, you know, we have plenty of examples of Paul escaping through

a basket Paul escaping at night.

You know Jesus breaking Peter out of jail and there's there's plenty of Christian resistance to be had here.

But it does bring up the related question concerning pacifism.

If pacifism is right, then you don't really ever protest or join any kind of.

Move against the government which is not the example that the Apostles set.

So think about again for sense of both wisdom and prophecy.

But if you go back and you look at the interactions between Saul and David and then David

and Absalom Saul was the anointed.

He was installed as king by God he was the legitimate King.

He was there to punish evildoers and to praise doers of righteousness and he did a fairly bad job.

Overall might give him a C - probably out of the rest of Kings of Israel's.

What you're saying?

Well now you talk about them.

Maybe he was a b -plus.

We're grading on a curve if we were looking at David.

He's a C - right?

Okay.

But David, David comes in and we have a situation where Samuel goes down to Bethlehem and anoints

David as the new king while there's another King still writing.

So this is very interesting.

Sounds familiar.

Yes, so this helps us typologically to think about the persistence of the

Old Covenant while the New Covenant began.

The New Testament era it helps us typologically to kind of sort through what happens when David is

anointed but Saul still on the throne.

However, think about it in terms of its wisdom.

We see that David refused to illegally strike.

Unrighteously strike at Saul he resisted but he did not do something illegal.

He did not kill Saul.

He did not strike even when he had the chance.

He proved he was more righteous than Saul was and Saul himself said it.

And they'll finally God in his own time in his own way brought judgment upon Saul.

Saul died.

He's out of the way.

Then David starts his reign in a more official fashion over the tribe of Judah and then through the protracted

civil war.

Seven year war with Ishbosheth and Abner and all the rest of them.

Finally, then he becomes fully king over all the tribes of Israel.

But then David becomes lax in his justice allows all kinds of unrighteousness to happen in his

household.

We have Bathsheba Uriah we have Ammon raping Tamar but not being punished and

so Absalom Tamar sister begins to Turn the hearts of the men towards himself saying you're not getting

justice.

I'm a man I'm all about justice and justice needs to be happening justice and it's not happening in the king's house and so on.

So then he takes the vengeance into his own hand.

Kills Ammon without permission from the king because it should have already been done right.

Absalom flees and then when he comes back.

Even though he's acted in a way that is not legitimate.

David also does nothing to Absalom thus underscoring justice is not in the house of the king.

Look how bad David is doing with this.

He's not exercising justice as part of his job.

Absalom is able to convince everybody he shouldn't be king anymore.

So now Absalom rises up and now he is anointed but not by God not by God's

credence.

But now he's an anointed king while David still on the throne and now David has to flee because Absalom is

marching on Jerusalem and so on but in the end Absalom is done away with and David remains

king.

I'm not saying that we have picture -perfect Solutions here.

But what are we but wisdom when you have vying?

Magisterial authorities within the same nation whoever is saying the other person is unrighteous.

I think we're gonna know them by their fruits.

Who is truly supposed to be the righteous magister that you follow?

So that though in what it's called the doctrine of the lesser magistrates if you have Conflict between magisterial

authorities follow the ones that are doing things.

Legally.

Righteously.

Appropriately and so on.

So we live in a time now that we have magistrates disagreeing with each other all the time.

The feds say one thing the states say no the state says the one thing and then the sheriff in the county say no.

Who you gonna follow who's in charge?

All right, that's gonna happen a lot more.

The father this mess goes along in our late -stage Republic.

We're gonna have a lot of magistrates conflicting with each other, you know, California is trying to push

through legislation.

That's going to be sponsored through them towards a federal a federal regulation for all

homeschoolers everywhere.

Well when that drops all kinds of if it gets through let's just say hypothetically if they gets through All

sorts of states are gonna be like, yeah we'll do whatever the feds say and other states are saying get out of our business and.

Then some states are gonna be like well I think I guess we have to because you know.

We have to have their money and then some sheriff's gonna be like no, we're not doing that, right?

So this is gonna happen more and more and more there's gonna be conflicts between the county level the state level the

federal level and we're going to have to recognize that there's going to be Conflicts of

authorities and who are we going to follow?

They're also gonna drive incentives at you as well to lean one way or another like you mentioned the money.

I mean, that's a that's a big one there.

It's not just so I mean it we use it in wisdom as a right -and -wrong thing.

But there's gonna be a lot more pressure.

That's not even a legal pressure on you.

There's going to be other incentives involved.

Well, I think that's that comes back to like with the pacifism and all that and that leads from chapter 12

into 13.

The magistrate is God's servant.

He's word deaconess.

I think it is serve it.

Yeah dark enough.

Yeah that God's servant, but sometimes Servants are ignorant.

Maybe they're not malicious but they don't know and a Christian has a responsibility to educate the magistrate because

like you're saying we're gonna have a lot of Conflicts or some people don't know what to do and they're in positions where they have to make decisions.

So you need to act righteously.

So how do you act righteously?

Well as the church we come in with the Word of God and say this is how you act righteously.

You have authority over these things.

This is what you can do.

This is how you can support a higher Magistrate, but you can also appeal to that higher magistrate from the Word of

God.

And so you go through those channels that God has put in place because they're his servant.

It goes and it goes back to the beginning of the verse that that's in question of about being constructive in these ways

doing good.

You're doing good to the civil magistrate by helping him out if he is ignorant in these areas.

You're you're not being destructive.

You're being constructive from the word if you live.

Romans 12, I mean you start off, you know, you are that living sacrifice where you are focused

on Christ to start off with and then from that Center point

from that point of origin.

You are doing what you're supposed to be doing as a Christian within the body of Christ with the first part of 12.

And then this next part of 12 is you're not taking your own vengeance.

You are leaving room for the wrath of God.

You're setting you're setting yourself up to.

Really have a standing before the magistrate in Romans 13.

You have a platform you have this history of this is this who we are, you know, we we love Christ.

We obey him.

This is how we treat each other.

And this is how we are good citizens and we live.

Within our proper boundaries, we are not the ones who are engaging in this violence.

We are not the ones who are violating, you know property.

We're not the ones that you guys have to worry about, you know, and then you've Michael you said it earlier.

These are examples listen to be praised and you stand before the magistrate says this is right.

This is wrong.

This is what the Word of God says.

You know if you've been living as a as a hypocrite or if you have you know, you have a history of violence yourself.

They're not gonna listen to you.

But if you have been living Romans 12 Romans 13, you know, you have a lot more impact and it looks like it's kind

of a.

Communal.

Communal command as well.

It's not I mean it is two individuals.

But with one another with Saints like this looks like a group project and it has more impact as a group project I

think so.

Yeah.

I think when you see groups of Christians going to civil magistrates instead of just individuals like and I know

when Individuals can have major impact but when you're talking about that they see that especially in a republic like we talked about

that's that's a greater constituency than one individual if you have not just one church with multiple churches and a

majority of their church membership showing up and they're they're living out 12 and they're they're doing what they can from 12 to

help out.

What's being told to the government in 13 that has a much greater impact doing it as a community of

believers as well.

Yeah, so I think I don't think there's pacifism as a requirement from Romans 12 or Matthew

5 and other passages.

Certainly Christians are it's fine for a Christian to be a soldier be a good one be a righteous one.

It's fine for a Christian to be a magistrate be a good one be a just one.

It's good for the Christians to address magistrates and call them to do righteous things like punish evildoers.

This is God's appointed means for one of his appointed means for wrath.

We understand that ultimately God will take care of all those issues on the final day and These are but not

passages that are telling us to not take up arms and self -defense.

To protect our families and that which God has entrusted to us.

These are passages that say don't go pursuing doing evil things against those who have already done evil to you.

Which is a prohibition against vengeance.

Yes, and I think one of those popular film types of our day.

One of the most popular cultural stories of our day is the vengeance story.

Because people have this deep -rooted confidence that The state is not going to do

right the state will not a comp in fact.

The state's probably the one doing the wrong and so movies and books and also, you know It's all about

the vengeance story and people really gravitate towards that but that's the way of the world.

Christians are not to rejoice in taking their own vengeance.

Amen.

Well, I think we can go right into recommendations.

Michael we'll start with you.

Okay, my recommendation is the servant on the mount Matthew chapters 5 through 7.

So read that but then also like there's good books also about them.

So about about those chapters and one of those is an older book by DA Carson the servant on the mount.

If you can find it, it's an old book and evangelical exposition of Matthew 5 through 7.

There's a newer version that takes it all the way from 5 to 4 5 through chapter 10.

And so he kind of adds that in there.

So it's two of his books put together as one so that's a good option as.

Well, so this is not going to be a very extended long study.

So this you know, this is not was 150 pages long.

So that's that's a small book compared to some of the other books that are written.

If you if you want something really really Detailed you can read the you know However, many hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of

pages that Martin Lloyd -Jones wrote on summer on the mountain.

But I don't have that kind of time.

Chris I'd recommend it was a discussion between Doug Wilson and T Russell Hunter on

smash mouth incrementalism versus abolitionism.

And I thought it was a very helpful discussion and it kind of opened my eyes to some of the things I like Doug Wilson

and their project a lot of things they do but that doesn't Represent necessarily where I'm coming from

theologically and you kind of see some of that work.

They keep pointing to Old Testament things.

That's kind of a what they gravitate toward.

So it sounded rather pragmatic and then you hear T Russell Hunter saying well Why can't we just be biblical?

Why can't we just be built and so there's some back and forth and I thought the moderator did a really good job with it.

And I thought both of them brought up some good points.

But I think it's moving the needle in the right direction as far as because I know that with abolitionism There

have been some very radical strands of it some violent strands.

And so I think T Russell Hunter has Hustle, excuse me.

T Russell Hunter has distanced himself from kind of that radical and I think he's he's got it more down

where he Can talk with with others in a way that actually is helpful.

And so I think that that's that was a very good one.

So was the discussion centered around voting in November as an abolitionist?

It was about like can you in good conscience sign bills like heartbeat bills, right?

He was saying even the discussion is not about how many babies we save because he claims that that's the

pragmatic approach.

Well, it's saving.

We'll save some babies with the goal of abolishing abortion.

And he cited some some passages from the Old Testament that said God says he hates

those types of laws.

Don't work with the government in any any fashion even if it has a positive outcome.

You Abandon that and you you go for like just being righteous and yet citing partiality

type of a thing right kind of yeah.

So I thought it was a very good discussion.

He brought points out that I think a lot of people are are kind of missing and then I thought Doug did the same thing.

So yeah, it was interesting.

Awesome, Dave.

I.

Just finished the ever -loving truth Can faith survive in a post -christian culture by

Vodie Bockham, this is in 2023 is when he wrote that.

I think I've recommended a couple of a couple of books a couple of things that he has done.

Just content.

He has created sermons.

He's preached.

I think he coined the term cultural Marxism at least he is a big explainer of it.

But this this particular book is I thought it was going to be more of an apologetic.

It actually became it morphed into an Evangelical but I truly

evangelism why it's important and to speak it.

And of course and when you're dealing with post -modernism you're dealing with post -christian culture.

There's no absolute.

There's no absolute truth.

So you're you're speaking to a culture that no longer has those moorings that you know.

Then perhaps they had a hundred years ago.

So he does help kind of explain the new cultural context in which your

evangelism to others and your apologetic.

That is your defense of your own faith will be you have to conduct yourself in so prefers you a little bit.

I liked it.

I got the Kindle version.

So I was able to kind of, you know, take it on trips and stuff, but I hope you read hope you enjoy it.

My recommendation for this week is the music of Brian Sauve.

That is S -a -u -v -e from time to time.

I find myself on very long drives and Between books audiobooks podcasts

every now and then it's good to listen to a little bit of music.

Especially if it's psalms set to something with a fiddle and that is right up my alley

he's got a few things that are his personal work and Some singles that he's written, but he's also got quite a few psalms

set to music as well.

And I really I really appreciate his style voice and the way that he's tried to self -fund

his Endeavor without getting into the morass of the whole record label issues,

whether that be, you know Christian labels or secular.

There's quite a bit that goes into that that you really wouldn't want to be a part of so that's Brian Sauve

S -a -u -v -e go ahead and check out his music on on Apple.

Do you have a favorite album?

I like even dragon still praise him, but he has some songs I think it's like five songs that he's

written for his family and about his family and you don't see men that Are like

right or you don't see people in general writing personal songs and able to get them out there in mass.

And I mean, they're some some of its tear -jerking stuff just because you you know, it's like dad to daughter Yeah, or

husband to wife and I love it man.

It's it's really good stuff.

He's.

His member of the Kings Hall podcast, yes, is there is day.

Yeah, I'm sure he's got his fingers in a couple different pies.

But you know, what else he what else he does he and his wife do.

Bright hearth.

Podcast as well and he is the head pastor one of the elders at Refuge

church.

Yes. That's what it is.

Yes.

Yep.

All right.

Well, we'll move on to what are we thankful for Michael?

I'm thankful for hard physical labor I did that this morning went out and brush hogs

our piece of property and been quite a while since I was out there.

But it was it was good as all overgrown and needed to be tended to so I finally got my machinery repaired.

It all prepped up for last Monday and then it poured down rain all Sunday and Monday.

So that's perfect timing so but it was good to get out there and and work the land and just really enjoy

God's good creation.

How are the sinuses?

They're fine.

I've been praying hard against poison ivy.

Poison ivy in the sinuses.

Yeah, no, hopefully not that combination particularly but when I said poison ivy I saw some over in the corner my

eye immediately scratches arm, which I think is probably PTSD from a recent about that.

Yeah, it's right.

Yeah, so but anyway, I'm hoping I'll get that but it was good hard work and I enjoyed it.

Awesome, Chris.

I'm thankful for the congregation here at Sunnyside the love that they have for each other.

Particularly I had an encounter this past Saturday one of the gentlemen here invited me out.

I'd been talking about some frustrations with myself some personal failings and asked for prayer and and he was

following up and asking some more probing questions, but in a very gentle and loving way

I could tell he's wanting to come alongside and Like help me see if there's any way that he could help me and that I

think that went a long way.

I knew that he was thinking about my struggle.

He was praying for me and then he wanted to see if there's anything that he could help with and I just I love that.

You know, that's what we're doing.

We're building.

We're building the kingdom, but we do that hand -in -hand.

I mean that Romans 12 love for one another doing good to each other and I'm very

grateful for that.

Amen.

David I spent the last couple of days on a trip all over the country.

I spent a lot of time in the East Coast and I got to do something I had never done before got to see Niagara Falls,

which was just amazing.

It was an interesting part of that part of the trip and I shot some, you know pictures to the guys here but

I was able to spend a couple of days with a captain.

His name is a person Tico and We.

We're just kind of feeling each other out.

You have to be careful.

I think he and I have different political leanings.

But as we just kind of kept talking back and forth, I had mentioned something about.

Oh, yeah, let's see.

Here's the curvature of the earth and he had said.

Oh, yeah.

You ever have people come up and talk to you and they have 30 ,000 feet and ask if the world is flat or it's curved.

And he's like, oh, yeah, we kind of can go back and forth on that and then he said.

Oh, yeah.

As far as the East is from the West.

Right.

And he kind of keep it going and I want I kind of keyed in on that.

And I was like Yeah, that's that's what the Psalms say as far as the East is from the West.

Separate your sin from you.

Just throwing that one out there.

And then he was like, yeah.

Yeah, and this is so we had already spent a couple of days with each other.

Did you actually draw the fish in the dust in the cockpit floor?

It was.

Basically, it was just yeah.

I mean, yeah, I mean we just Kind of threw that out there, but I could tell him he's he's a

very experienced guy.

So he you know, he Wanted to kind of feel me out a little bit because he's he's got to

protect his career as as do I but Yeah, that's kind of it's kind of what we did you know figuratively

speaking kind of drew that drew that fish and See you see what bites and the third

day was just it was we felt so much more comfortable with each other.

We talked about everything I was just really thankful that he has sort of mentioned that and then I a little bit

more a little bit more and then we Just knew went off on it.

He and his wife had been married over 40 years.

Wow.

He's a new grandfather.

You know, he's in his late 50s Excuse me.

He's in his early 60s and he and his wife have been together for a long time high school sweethearts

and it was just a beautiful story that he had shared with me and I I Appreciated it and appreciate his friendship.

And even though we may disagree on some political issues We had a wonderful time of fellowship and I'm very

thankful because it was refreshing Because I spent a lot of time by yourself He spent a lot of time alone and to have that kind of

fellowship that third day.

It was just It was just heartening.

It really was so I'm thankful for that.

Let me go.

Well, I guess the lesson there is if you you give Dave a thread.

He's gonna keep pulling on it to the whole garment comes comes undone.

How that's gonna work.

No, I'm that's a that's a great anecdote.

They're only we love to hear that especially in a workplace situation.

You don't get that very often.

I am thankful to the Lord for the I was thinking about this earlier with the Brown family specifically.

James has been doing Loads of work at our house per commission on quite a few things.

Either structural or the outside doors that sort of thing, you know doors that prevent destruction.

James does a really good job at installing those types of things.

I'm really thankful for his labor his hard work he gets stuff done and He

allows my boys to walk around him as he does it and he somehow managed to do it

without injuring them.

Which I can't seem to do myself.

I usually step on somebody in the process, but he nobody was injured but no James and Jana

and their girls.

I'm very thankful for the Brown family.

I was thinking about all that they they do around here things unseen and things seen.

Oh, yeah, how much work they put into?

The grounds meals.

Singing I mean it it's a new brown girl up there every day doing something playing on stage playing.

Oh, yeah.

And how well the younger girls play with my kids the way they play with the other kids.

It's just a real enjoyable time and a very Encouraging

thing to see a family that as a unit Works well within the congregation and wants to love on each

other and wants to love on everybody else around them.

I'm so thankful for the Browns and all that they do around here and we're thankful for everybody here at Sunnyside.

But I just wanted to single out the Browns with this episode.

And that wraps it up for today.

We are very thankful for our listeners and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and

objections.

With having not read.