Does Water Baptism Save Us?

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May 21, 2020

Watch the newest episode of Apologia Radio. We are joined by our friend, Matt Slick, from CARM. Does water baptism save us from our sin? Or is it is faith?

00:05: I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified
00:10: Jesus in the public square. It's a humanistic principle. It's the same idea. It's the same end.
00:15: I would say, what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the cosmic picture? No, there's no problem.
00:22: In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.
00:28: President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.
00:47: I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.
00:56: He is a powerful savior and the gospel is not a suggestion, it is a command.
01:09: Reverend Moller, don't you sympathize with that? I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living
01:16: God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.
01:25: Right now, you're on the threshold of an amazing adventure. We will explore the spiritual abyss.
01:33: You have not experienced this before. You're going to love it.
01:51: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.
02:00: He does not come into judgment, but is passed from death to life. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Apologia Radio.
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03:29: So, very important stuff there at ApologiaStudios .com. That's Luke the Bear. What up? I'm Jeff the
03:34: Comb and the Ninja, and we have a very important show today with one of our good friends, Matt Slick from Karm .org.
03:42: If you haven't checked that out yet, you should. It is just a huge treasure trunk full of just amazing, amazing content.
03:53: Great answers. I knew about Matt for a very, very long time before we got a chance to meet and do a conference together.
04:01: In Canada. Canada, eh? You can tell how long Luke and I have been friends.
04:07: Speaking of a stressful, awful experience, not hanging out with Matt in Canada, but getting into Canada. Yeah, that was horrible.
04:12: That was the one where we got stuck. We got jammed up. Yeah, I think it was our beards. We went into two separate border checkpoint lines, and we're all just giggling and laughing and sort of just ready to get into Canada.
04:25: And next thing you know, we both separately got pulled into a room with, oddly, only people with beards, which was weird.
04:32: We were in there for, I don't know, three hours or something like that. A long time. They grabbed Luke's phone, went through his phone.
04:38: They asked us, well, what exactly are you teaching on? We're like, well, we're pastors. We're Christians. We're teaching. Well, what are you teaching on?
04:44: Let me see your schedule. And we were like, well, it's a theological doctrine called Nunya. I wish you would have said that.
04:52: No, I was just like, just Jesus and the gospel. I didn't want to mention all the stuff that would have kept us out of Canada for teaching in Communa.
05:03: Communism. So, hey, what are we doing here?
05:09: Okay, so anyway, got Matt Slick on. He'll be on in just a moment here. But I wanted to bless everybody with something that I think is just absolutely incredible.
05:17: I posted about it the other day. Luke posted it first. I saw his. So I posted it, and I was watching it through tears, truly, just because of knowing what we know about God's providence that brought all this about.
05:27: It is such a tremendous blessing. So we're going to jump into the discussion today of does water baptism save us?
05:34: Is water baptism necessary for salvation? And before we do that and bring
05:39: Matt on, I want to bless you all with this amazing video. It's not very long, but it is so encouraging to me, to us in particular.
05:48: And I want to say, if you have been praying for or giving financially to the work of End Abortion Now, I want to say a big thank you.
05:58: And I hope this blesses you, because you did this. This isn't our thing. This is God's thing.
06:04: This is the work of the church. And if you gave anything, if you gave $1 ,000, if you gave $25, you did this.
06:12: You made it possible. So just to give you a little bit of background, years ago, I was asked to go to Ireland to speak as a
06:20: Reformed Baptist minister at the True Covenanters, like Orthodox Presbyterians, hardcore
06:27: Presbyterians, their family conference, which they all gathered from the North and the South to come together to do. And I was like,
06:32: I didn't know these people. I was like, you know that I'm a Reformed Baptist, right? Like, this is a Presbyterian family, like, denomination conference.
06:40: Do you know what you're asking for? And they're like, of course. I was like, yes. Okay, that's a huge gift. So yeah, and so I just went out there to speak on the gospel, apologetics, and while I was there, all kinds of stuff started happening.
06:52: While I was there, I went to their seminary, I went to other churches, I was speaking and teaching, and at the conference. And the issue of abortion kept coming up, but at the time,
06:59: Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland had it criminalized. And the next thing you know, everything started falling down, and abortion became a reality for the
07:09: Republic, the South, and now it was forced upon the North. And now they're facing the issue of child sacrifice in the
07:17: North and the South. And God has used End Abortion Now and Apology of Church to equip and train and raise up leaders that are the godliest saints, you can imagine, they are the most amazing
07:29: Christians, and they are the voice for a gospel -centered approach to the issue of ending abortion in Northern Ireland, the
07:39: Republic, and actually in Scotland. So I wanted to share with you, this is blessed,
07:45: Pastor Luke and I, our lives, we've been in this since the beginning of this thing, the formation, we never saw it coming, it's all organic, it's all
07:51: God, it's not to our glory, we were part of the means of teaching and equipping and challenging them, but this, what you're about to see,
07:59: God did this, and if you partnered with us, I want you to see the fruit of your sacrifice, your prayers, your giving, look what
08:07: God is doing right now in Ireland. I support
08:16: Let Them Live because I believe that human rights begin at conception. I support Let Them Live because they proclaim
08:23: God's word on the matter of abortion, and uphold his commands, and offer the forgiveness found in the
08:29: Lord Jesus Christ. I support Let Them Live because they are not ashamed to call abortion what it is, and that it is murder.
08:36: And murder is never the solution. Murder is the intentional taking of a human life, and it causes great pain to both baby and mother.
08:45: Let Them Live want to show mothers that there is another way. Jesus gave his life so that we can have forgiveness.
08:54: There's forgiveness for those who took part in it, for those who actually performed the procedure, for even people who stood back and said nothing.
09:03: The good news about Jesus says that even those who have murdered babies can be forgiven when they trust in him.
09:09: It says in the Bible, rescue those who are being taken away to death. Psalm 139 says, you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
09:19: I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Location is relevant, inside or outside the womb, a life is a life.
09:26: I want abortion to end in Northern Ireland because I believe that every human being has equal value in the eyes of God, no matter how big or how small they are.
09:33: It is time for the church to rise up and tell the truthful news that abortion is murder.
09:40: But also to proclaim the beautiful news that there is forgiveness and salvation in the
09:48: Lord Jesus Christ. For those who repent, believe in him and trust in him.
09:54: There is hope for the sinner in Jesus Christ. Let Them Live is a collection of believers North and South that are dedicated to end abortion in Ireland.
10:03: They also believe that the gospel has to be the focus of this fight against abortion in Ireland. In our country today, the women have been given very little help where pregnancies that they can't have right now or can't deal with, they've been told that murder is their only option.
10:22: But we should not be allowing our society and our governments to do that to the women of our society today. Instead we should be giving them the support and the help and the hope that they need.
10:31: Murder is never a solution. I've spent many years of my life studying embryology, anatomy, human development.
10:39: I've spent many years of my life working in the NHS, caring for those in need, at all points trying to help and not to harm.
10:47: And I can't just stand by and watch the helpless, the pitiful being taken away to torture and death.
10:56: This is not medicine, this is not healthcare. Everyone should have the right to live, no matter who you are, no matter what you look like.
11:03: Let the babies live. I support Let Them Live because I want all babies to have a chance to live.
11:09: The gospel of Jesus Christ is one of life instead of death, light instead of darkness.
11:15: My prayer is that our nation will turn from the wicked murdering of unborn babies and find forgiveness, light and life in Jesus Christ.
11:24: We are Let Them Live. Woohoo! That's awesome.
11:30: Oh my goodness. Let Them Live is our end abortion now baby. That's right. End abortion now baby.
11:37: That's right. It's funny like cause I can hear it but not watch it but you can hear it. Now that we've been there enough
11:43: I can tell if someone's from the north or from the south. Right. You hear like James O 'Brien. North, north and south.
11:49: Yeah. You can tell he's ages and double or something. I'll tell you what. Phillip. Yeah. His prayers. Or Paul.
11:56: Yeah. Holy Spirit. Yeah. Holy Spirit. Yes man. Alright. Love you brother. I love, love, love, love, love these believers.
12:04: So hey guys. Do you hear that? It is the church, Christians engaging this issue with the gospel at the center.
12:14: It's about Jesus. It's about God's word and being truthful about what this actually is.
12:20: It's not just wrong. There's a biblical category for it. It is the unjustified taking of human life.
12:27: That's called murder. And that is what the popular industry and lobby won't call it.
12:33: And this, these are Christians. And they're fighting as Christians with the gospel at the front.
12:41: And it is a truly humbling experience to see something like this that God brings to life. And we just wanted you to see it.
12:47: We wanted you guys to see it. Many of you guys love us. You're a part of this with us. Your hands are in our hands.
12:52: And you've given towards this ministry. And Let Them Live is an abortion now's baby in Ireland.
13:00: And moving into Scotland. So I wanted you to see it. Because it blessed my life in a big, big way. So, anyone else?
13:06: Someone asked, you mentioned Let Them Live. But their website is letthemlive .ie. So that's the
13:11: Ireland version. Right on. Alright. And if you guys are in Ireland. And you're believers.
13:18: And you want to bring justice for the pre -born. You want to uphold justice for them. You want to actually protect the fatherless and those who are being led away to death.
13:25: You want to do it as a Christian. Consistently. In a meaningful way. Get into contact with Let Them Live.
13:32: Let Them Live is the group that we would say you need to connect with. And they need you. They need your help.
13:38: In many, many ways. So go get connected to Let Them Live. Alright. Here we go. Let's get into today. Thank you guys all for watching now on the live stream.
13:46: Make sure you guys like. Click all those buttons. Share everything. If you haven't subscribed yet to Apollo JS Studios. Make sure you guys subscribe.
13:52: We have all kinds of really interesting content planned for the next couple of months. I think that'll really. Some of this will be pretty shocking to be honest with you.
13:58: Some of the stuff that we've uncovered. Related to End Abortion Now stuff. Marcus is working right now on a little docuseries.
14:06: That is going to peel back some layers. We discovered some things. I'll just say the word collusion.
14:14: And I will leave it at that. And say that it will be shocking. And hopefully help with the efforts to actually end abortion in our own state.
14:21: But that's all coming. Lots more coming from Apollo JS Studios. And hopefully we get to redo. Or redo do.
14:28: The debate we had planned. Dr. White and I had a debate planned in Utah.
14:34: With two atheist philosophers. Professors. One calls himself an atheist chaplain. That had to get cancelled because of COVID -19.
14:41: Hopefully that gets hooked up again. Somewhere near the end of the year. We are going soon on a mission to Salt Lake City.
14:48: To finish some work for our documentary. We're actually doing some work for End Abortion Now as well. And so lots coming.
14:54: Lots coming. We have a Mormonism documentary coming out. Hopefully in the next year.
15:00: We're building it. And I'm actually going to try to see if I can get Matt to do some stuff for it as well.
15:06: That would be really good. With all that said. Let's go ahead and bring this discussion into the show today.
15:12: I'm going to introduce our friend Matt Slick from Karm .org. Matt, welcome to Apologia Radio. Hey, thanks for having me on.
15:21: Absolutely, brother. Excited to have you on. I'm sure most of our audience probably knows exactly who you are.
15:27: Could you tell us about who you are? Where people can go to get connected to your work? Well, yeah. My name is
15:32: Matt Slick. I started Karm .org 25 years ago.
15:37: Been working on it a lot. Had so far over 100 million visitors to it.
15:43: I don't know how many we've had now. That was a few years ago. And we get a lot of traffic. I've got thousands of emails coming in.
15:48: Written a few books. Do radio mostly on the east coast. It's in Salt Lake, Ohio. Stuff like that.
15:55: I love to do apologetics, debate, teach, and annoy people. I want you guys to know about Matt.
16:04: Matt is a huge blessing. He's a gift to the church. Karm is an excellent, excellent resource. It is such a blessing.
16:09: This man has invested his life so much into some important areas to be a blessing to the church. And one of the things, if you don't know
16:16: Matt, which, like I said, most of you probably do, Matt has an encyclopedic mind.
16:23: We'll go with that. That's good. I just made that up, I think. I think the true gift of Matt is he has all these categories and things and all these years of labor to bless the church and help them to equip them to defend the faith.
16:36: And so he'll just zip off. He knows right where to go. So he's been gifted with a really powerful mind, a lot better than mine or,
16:43: I think, yours. It's definitely more than mine. Really strong. So all that to say, I'm giving. This isn't flattery.
16:49: It's a true get over to Karm. Make sure you guys support what Matt is doing. It is really, truly a gift to the church.
16:55: So, Matt, we had an opportunity just passed across the feed.
17:01: I saw that you had a debate this past week with someone from the Church of Christ on the issue of does baptism save us.
17:10: Can you tell us a bit about that debate and where people can go to get it so they can see it? Yeah, it's on Facebook, and I have to download it.
17:18: We did it onto YouTube, and it didn't show up. I don't know why I got to research that. But it's on Facebook.
17:23: I'll download it, upload it to the Karm .org YouTube account. We've got a lot of videos up there.
17:29: But this guy challenged me. He kept saying, I want to debate you, I want to debate you. And I said, okay, finally.
17:35: And I don't think he did very well. I mean, when you support and defend heresy, you're not going to do very well.
17:44: So there were several occurrences during the debate where he didn't know what to do, didn't know how to answer things. And he had the nerve to inject
17:51: Calvinism into it and attack Calvinism, which I politely warned him is not a good idea. And he persisted, and he doesn't know what he's doing.
17:59: But nevertheless, you've got all the information on baptism, on Karm as well, if you want to look it up.
18:05: I've analyzed various verses and stuff like that. I like to debate the issue a lot. And water baptism by immersion is not necessary for salvation.
18:14: You should get baptized, but you do not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven. Yeah, and what we're talking about fundamentally here are issues related to, of course, regeneration.
18:23: And I would say at a primary point, justification, that there's an actual point in our life where God opens our eyes, we repent, we trust in Jesus, and we are declared righteous.
18:34: That's how Paul lays it out in terms of Abraham and a timeline for him. And you have all the statements from the
18:40: Lord Jesus and all the things we have in the book of Acts. In terms of people believing, and even in Acts 10, they hear the gospel, they are filled with the
18:48: Holy Spirit of God, they start exercising gifts of the Spirit. So these are clearly people who trusted in Jesus.
18:55: And the word from the Apostle was, Can anyone of the water so that these who receive the Holy Spirit, just as we have, can be baptized?
19:01: That's in Acts 10. So the issue here is in terms of, I think, am I right, Joe? Matt, is that where you would go and really focus on the issue of justification first?
19:10: How do you get at this? Well, I have different ways of debating. A lot of people are not ready for some of the approaches that I use on the issue of justification.
19:20: Now, this guy was discussing the issue of baptismal regeneration and the necessity of it, of water baptism.
19:26: And, of course, you mentioned Acts 10, 1044 -48. People have already received the Holy Spirit, just as Peter had, speaking in tongues, glorifying
19:33: God. And so, you know, you get to, I asked them, Are the people who are glorifying God, exalting
19:39: God, speaking in tongues, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit, to the church, 1 Corinthians 14.
19:46: And they hadn't even yet been baptized yet. Are they still in a state of damnation?
19:51: I like to ask questions that are rather pointed, because you lay the case out, and then ask a question related to the case.
19:57: And, for example, what are the things I'll do? I like to use logic a lot, particularly when I'm debating atheists. But I'll bring up certain issues.
20:05: And with this guy, I said, Is it the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith? Or is it not the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith?
20:14: And there's no third option here. It's either the case that we're justified by faith when we have faith, or it's not.
20:20: He could not answer the question. And the issue of justification is something that's really important.
20:25: We could talk about this a little bit more on how far you want me to get into it. But they will say that justification occurs at baptism.
20:32: And what they're doing is they're adding a human ceremony to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
20:37: And they're denying justification by faith when we have faith. Therefore, they're denying justification by faith. And so they preach a false gospel.
20:45: And as I said on the debate, I called him a false convert, which is true. He's a false convert preaching a false gospel.
20:52: So I think, and we can go to the specific passages, because I know people are thinking of 1 Peter 3.
20:57: They're thinking of Titus 3. They're thinking of all these. We're going to go through those for everyone's benefit. But I think what
21:04: Matt is saying is actually very, very important. I like how Matt puts that in terms of justification when you believe or not.
21:10: Are you justified when you trust in Jesus Christ, or are you not justified? Does it have to take, you know, is it six days later when you get into that water when the baptism is scheduled?
21:19: Or are you justified before God when you turn to Christ and believe, or when God opens your eyes and allows you to actually believe in Jesus?
21:28: I think the place to land here, maybe you can expatiate on this, Matt, is Romans 4.
21:34: Paul's entire argument is this point. If you are a child of Abraham, you need to have the faith of Abraham.
21:43: And here's what he says. Romans 4, verse 1. What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh?
21:51: For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the
21:56: Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness, credited to him as righteousness.
22:02: Now, to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due.
22:09: And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom
22:20: God counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.
22:26: Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Now, this is where, this is the key moment here in the text, because this is, this is the apostle, the inspired apostle's whole argument is hinging on this.
22:38: Is this blessing then only for the circumcised or for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
22:45: How then was it counted to him? Here's the timeline of his life. Please hear it. He quoted
22:51: Genesis 15 .6. He says this, was it before or after he had been circumcised?
22:58: It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
23:08: The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised so that the righteousness would be counted to them as well.
23:15: And also, the key thing here is in terms of the timeline of his life that Paul is pointing to, Abraham believes
23:20: God has credited him as righteousness when? Well, that was before circumcision. So before this ceremony, over to the old covenant, of course, of circumcision was taking place,
23:29: Abraham believed God. Well, what did he do? Well, empty hands. Well, what did he accomplish?
23:34: Nothing. He trusted in God. What ceremony did he perform? He trusted in God.
23:40: It was faith and faith alone. And Paul's argument is it was about 400 years before the law was given by Moses.
23:47: So you've got Abraham declared righteous before God through faith and through faith alone before circumcision, so before any ceremony, and before the law was given, hundreds of years before the law was given.
23:58: Paul's whole argument there is this. Are you a child of Abraham? Are you an heir according to the promise?
24:03: Then you need to have a similar faith and justification experience as Abraham. Do you have it?
24:10: Now, I think that does play into the issue with the new covenant sign of baptism. We can go into a number of verses from the
24:17: Lord Jesus promising eternal life when you trust in him. We can, of course, talk about things even like the thief on the cross and how many different ways of salvation are there.
24:27: He wasn't baptized. He trusted in Jesus. All that stuff. We can talk through Acts. But I think the key thing here, Matt, and I'd like you to talk about this, is that timeline issue and what
24:36: Paul is describing in Romans 4. Can you talk to us about that? You mean out of Romans 4?
24:41: Romans 4. I think you covered it pretty well. Yeah. Anything you want to add to that in terms of the importance of Paul's gospel apart from works,
24:49: God justifying the ungodly? The reason this is the case, a lot of people don't know, the reason that our works can have no part of our salvation is because our works are touched by sin.
25:06: This is a doctrine of total depravity. Nothing we ever do is pure. And God is, he says in 1
25:11: Peter 1 .16, Be holy for I am holy. The standard of righteousness is God and his character. We can never match up to that.
25:19: Deuteronomy 27 .26 talks about keeping the entirety of the law, which includes loving God and loving your neighbor.
25:25: And the way to do that is on the level of God's perfection. So our works are always touched by sin,
25:30: Isaiah 64 .6 says, Our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God. So for us to approach the bloodied cross with our sin -stained efforts and offer them somehow in some way as anything meriting any position with God or forgiveness of God is simply a false teaching.
25:50: And those who would adhere to that false teaching are not saved. The Roman Catholic Church teaches this. The Church of Christ teaches this.
25:57: The Mormons teach this. So what Paul is doing is he is teaching faith alone.
26:02: Now I know that people will go to James 2 .24. I believe it is. They'll say, you know, faith alone, justified not by faith alone.
26:11: The context of James 2 .14 -26, the context is on the horizontal. It's not vertical between God and man.
26:18: It's on the horizontal between people. And you know that from verse 18, You show me your faith,
26:23: I'll show you mine by my works. So the justification before people is by our works.
26:28: But justification before God is not by our works. This is why Paul says in verse 3 of Romans 4,
26:35: Abraham believed God who was credited to him as righteous. So this is what's critical. The word credited here is a legal term.
26:42: It's a legal issue. And the reason this is so important is because of the legality of what sin is, which we can get into.
26:47: It's really an interesting concept. And then Paul goes on and he says, But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
26:57: So I say that, like I said in the debate, and I say to people, I say, If you have an apple and an orange and you take away the orange, the apple is alone.
27:04: If you have a battery and a sandwich, you take away the sandwich. The battery is alone.
27:11: If you have faith and you have works, you take away works. Faith is alone. And this is what Paul's doing here.
27:17: He's saying to the one who does not work but believes. So there's no works. It's belief. Belief is alone.
27:23: Justification is by faith alone, in Christ alone, by the grace of God given to us because he grants that we believe,
27:29: Leviticus 1 .29, grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2 .25. So he does this. And because he's the one who gives us the faith, he's the one who grants that we come to Christ, John 6 .65.
27:40: Then the effort that we have in the freedom of our will to be able to believe, and we do, we can talk about free will.
27:46: That's also a great topic as well. We're then justified. We're then declared legally righteous with a righteousness that's not our own,
27:53: Philippians 3 .9. And that's what the Bible says clearly. So justification by faith alone, in Christ alone, because if we had our hands in it, we'd mess it up, and we'd dirty the waters.
28:02: And no, no, we need the pure, the pureness of Christ's blood to cleanse us, and that's why it's by faith alone, in Christ alone, not by works.
28:09: Yes, that's right. So, and it's interesting that people will hear this discussion and they'll go, yeah, but James 2.
28:15: And what I always like to challenge people on is this, I'll say, like Matt is talking about, I challenge people to say, well, what's the context of James 2?
28:22: And I've found that many times people don't know what the context is. But if you read James 2, he's not in the same discussion as Paul, and there's proof on two points.
28:31: One, first and foremost, James couldn't possibly be saying that you have to work your way to heaven to any degree, faith and works, because he says in James 2 .10,
28:39: whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he's guilty of all of it. So, you can't say that James is teaching it to any degree that those works play into it, because he says, if you fail in one part, you're guilty of the entire thing.
28:52: So, how are you doing? The next thing is to demonstrate that James is in a different discussion, is he's actually talking about somebody who has a said faith.
29:01: He asked the question about dead faith or living faith. Which one saves? And the answer, of course, from scripture is only living faith saves.
29:09: Real faith, not a said faith, not a mere profession, but real faith in Jesus. And James' whole argument is, how do you know someone's faith is living or dead?
29:17: See, this isn't a conversation that Paul had. Paul's discussion is between us and God. James' discussion is about people, like Matt said, horizontally, how do you know somebody's faith is alive or dead?
29:27: And he says, by what they do. And then the proof that James and Paul are not even in the same discussion, and here's the proof that cannot be refuted, is that James' point of contact in Abraham's life is when he offered his son
29:39: Isaac on the altar. That's about 20 years or so after Paul's context. And so he's saying, how do you know
29:45: Abraham had faith? Because he offered his son Isaac on the altar. It's a question of living faith or dead faith.
29:50: And James is pointing out in wisdom literature how to live and how to show that you have living faith.
29:57: It's not the same discussion that Paul's having, which is forensic and judicial. But all that to say,
30:03: Matt, I think it would be helpful to people, because there's so, and you know this, Matt, there are so many proof texts that people will try to draw from that are not in context, do not teach either baptismal regeneration or that baptism justifies or saves us, but they'll say, hey, look, the word water is here, and I see the word save here, and so that must mean water baptism.
30:26: Let's just go through some of those verses just quickly and help us, Matt, to respond to those.
30:31: A first one that people will bring up, and this is a very popular one, and let's start in John.
30:38: John 3, and this is, of course, Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus, and he tells
30:43: Nicodemus he must be born again. And then he says he has to be born of the water and the spirit.
30:49: And this, of course, causes confusion for Nicodemus, and then Jesus, this is an important element of context and understanding how to read the
30:56: Bible properly, Jesus says, are you not the teacher of Israel? How are you the teacher of Israel when you don't know these things?
31:01: So he, in other words, is pointing to the fact you're supposed to know what I'm talking about. You're the teacher of Israel, you don't know what
31:06: I'm talking about. New birth, spirit, and water, you must be born again. Matt, is that passage teaching us that water baptism is what saves us?
31:18: No. For one thing, the context is the baptism of John, which is a baptism of repentance.
31:25: And we could take a tangent into what repentance is from the Greek metanoeo, a change of mind. And repentance is a compliance with the law.
31:34: So we've got to be careful if we say we're saved by a repentance because we don't want to be saying we're saved by a compliance with the law. And that's a tricky topic to get into and to work out a few particulars, but it's something worth discussing in this if you want to go deeper into it.
31:46: But the issue here is that he's speaking of the baptism that's the only one known at this point, really talked about, is of John the
31:57: Baptist's baptism of repentance. Now, there's two other views that are really important.
32:04: One group of people will say that the water there is a reference to the Word, the washing of the water of the
32:10: Word. And it comes forth as alluded to in Acts 22, 16, I think Titus 3, 5.
32:16: But I hold a view that is a little unpopular. And I'll tell you right away, it's not the majority position.
32:22: But my view is that the water there is the womb, the water of the womb. And I say that because that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and the spirit is spirit.
32:32: Do not be amazed, I say, do you want to be born again or born from above? And so because what Nicodemus says in verse 4 is you can't enter into the mother's womb again, can you?
32:42: And Jesus says that which is born of the water and the spirit, I think the context is referencing that.
32:48: In other words, you've got to be born physically and born spiritually. Now I'm going to tell you that's not the majority position that I've read, but that's what
32:55: I hold to. Not that I'll die on that hill. So there are different views, but nevertheless, the baptism that we would have to say is contextually relevant here, if they're going to say it, it would be the baptism of John, and that wouldn't make any sense, particularly since we know that Jesus himself taught justification by faith, and I can show you where, and Paul certainly did.
33:14: In the same passage. Yeah, it's interesting, too, if you read further along in John 3, you have all the promises of the
33:21: Lord Jesus that when you hear his word, when you believe, when you look upon him, you have eternal life.
33:29: Eternal life from when you trust in Jesus. It's in the very same passage. Now I personally would take the perspective that many have, of course, that Nicodemus is being chastised because he's supposed to know this.
33:42: What was he supposed to know? Why is he being chastised? I think Jesus is pointing back to Ezekiel 36 and the promise of the new birth and new life.
33:49: God was given a new covenant, and in that passage, he specifically mentions that he is going to sprinkle clean water on them so they'll be clean, they'll be cleansed from all their idols, their heart of stone will be removed, and a heart of flesh will be put in, and God will put his spirit within them.
34:02: That's my perspective, but I think that no matter which direction you go in terms of trying to understand that passage, just keep reading through John 3, and you'll see the promises there for eternal life are through faith in the
34:17: Son of God. And you have to ask the question I think Matt asked, and I think it's a very good question.
34:23: Let's put it this way. If somebody was standing there with Jesus, overhearing what he was saying in that moment with Nicodemus and all those promises about turning to him in faith and having eternal life, and in that moment they trusted in Jesus on the spot, did they have it or not then?
34:36: Or did they need to step into the water later to get it? When do they get eternal life?
34:41: When is that justification before God take place? If they were there listening to Jesus, and they took him at his word, and they believed, did they have it or no?
34:50: Yes or no? I think that's an important question. Matt, next one. And I actually looked up your website on Acts 2.
35:01: I thought it was excellent. Excellent summary. Acts chapter 2, 38. Peter said to them,
35:07: Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the
35:14: Holy Spirit. See? Right there, Matt. That's what it says. Baptism is what's necessary for the forgiveness of sins.
35:23: Well, one of the first things I usually do when talking about that is I'll ask the people who hold to this verse.
35:30: I'll say, is this a formula for salvation? And they almost always say, well, of course it is. That's what it says.
35:36: Repent, be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the
35:41: Holy Spirit. I say, okay, so it's a formula for salvation. Yes, okay. Then why is faith not mentioned there?
35:48: And they're tripped up by that because it doesn't say it. If faith is not there, it cannot be a formula for salvation.
35:57: It's just as simple as that. That's one of the points I'll bring up to them, and I want them to focus on that and realize.
36:03: Well, it's implied, but you said it was a formula for salvation. And if it's a formula for salvation and faith isn't there, then you're teaching a heresy.
36:12: So it's not a formula for salvation, is it? Now, when I do apologetics, I have learned over the years to focus on one single point at a time and ask the same question in different ways about this issue.
36:24: And I like to get people to be, let's just say, uncomfortable when they find out that their position doesn't make any sense, and that's one of the ways to do that with here.
36:35: But also in Acts 2 .38, I'll ask them questions. I'll say, so you get baptized and then you receive the gift of the
36:40: Holy Spirit. Is that correct? Yes. Okay, then why is it in Acts 10 .44 -48 they receive the gift of the
36:46: Holy Spirit before they're baptized? And what is the gift of the Holy Spirit? And we know that from Acts 10 .44
36:52: -48 that it's the speaking in tongues, the charismatic movement. That's what he says. They're hearing them speaking in tongues, and they've received the gift of the
36:59: Holy Spirit. So if we're going to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, it doesn't say the Holy Spirit is what is received, but the gift of the
37:07: Holy Spirit is what's received. And I'll say, do you realize what you're saying here? Because the text is saying the gift of.
37:15: It's the gift that is received. It's not the Holy Spirit, because you receive the Holy Spirit when we're justified, we believe.
37:23: So they haven't thought of these things. And most of the time, I've discovered that people in cults with false gospels do not do their homework, don't think past their denominational restrictions.
37:34: And so because of this, it's not that difficult to ask questions that they're not accustomed to.
37:40: Church of Christ people are particularly vulnerable of this. But nevertheless, these are the kind of questions I'll ask and show, and then we have discussions about their answers, and I show why their answers, of course, don't work.
37:50: And the reason they don't work is because they're operating from an improper perspective, an improper set of presuppositions, and all
37:57: I've got to do is knock the legs out from underneath the presuppositions, and then their theology comes tumbling down. And that's usually what happens.
38:05: Yes, and I encourage everyone to get the detailed explanation and working through the Greek of that passage that's available at karm .org.
38:13: Look up that passage itself. I think Matt did an excellent job unpacking the issues with their language in terms of what's happening when you actually look at the
38:22: Greek and what's being pointed to, what's connected to the repentance and to the forgiveness.
38:28: But also, we can look at the same apostle preaching in chapter 3, and he says in verse 19, "...repent
38:34: therefore and turn back, that your sin may be blotted out." So which is it? Is it that repentance and turning back, so that sins are blotted out, or is it the baptism?
38:44: See, that's the danger of proof texting, right? The danger of proof texting, not reading the passage in context, not reading the scriptures in context, but I think what's important, too, is when you look at Acts chapter 2, that Matt just explained for us, who was present there in Acts 2?
39:01: Who gave that address? Well, Peter, right? But if you look in the very same book, in chapter 10, you've got
39:08: Peter preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, and what happens in their case? They hear the word, they're already filled with the
39:15: Holy Spirit, they're exercising Christian spirit -filled gifts already, and they already had believed.
39:22: And it says that then they got into the waters of baptism, and it's Peter who actually is there the whole time and directing the whole circumstance.
39:29: So which is it? Is Peter talking out of both sides of his mouth, or are we proof texting in a way that actually does damage to the entire story of the
39:38: Bible? And Peter's own experience in his teaching ministry, I think it's important. Okay, another one.
39:44: Let's give you another one here. Let's look at, let's see here.
39:50: Mark, go ahead. Sorry, I was just gonna say, this show apparently is an invitation for YouTube heretics.
39:57: This chat channel is full of them today. Yeah, and let me address this real fast too, it's important too.
40:04: You can see justification through faith alone, by God's grace alone, throughout the entire history of the church, from the very beginning.
40:13: I can point you to numbers and numbers of quotes from church fathers, pastors, all throughout the ages that have taught faith in Christ, trust in Christ, grace alone.
40:22: It's when you trust in Christ, you are justified before anything else happens. I can show you that. And then I'll also show you the same fallible, uninspired men saying things that are just theologically inaccurate.
40:31: We gotta give grace to fallible men who are not inspired, and hopefully to us as well, and know that the standard is the word of God.
40:39: Are you gonna see Christians in history, giants in history, saying some things that are convoluted and conflicting at times?
40:45: Yes. But you also see those same Christians actually affirming faith alone in Christ alone when they're pushed on it.
40:51: So thank God for his grace, even over our theology. But that's one thing people will say, Matt. They'll say, well, in church history, in church history, you have giants of the faith that actually at moments of their life taught baptismal regeneration, or that baptism saves.
41:05: What do you say to that, Matt? I got distracted by looking at a Greek word. What was your last question?
41:11: It's okay. No, people will say, they'll say, well, look, in church history, because people will try to play the church history game.
41:17: This is what's so critical to get. In church history, you see in the infancy of the church, you see people teaching justification by faith and election and God's sovereign predestination.
41:26: And you'll see giants of the faith teaching justification through faith alone in Christ alone when you believe you are declared righteous before anything ever happens.
41:33: And then you'll see those same pastors and church fathers, really, I believe, maintaining a tradition that they had essentially adopted that conflicts with their belief about salvation through faith in Christ alone.
41:46: So how do you respond to the person that says, hey, Matt, this church father who's a giant actually taught baptismal regeneration.
41:52: What do you say about that? I say, my church father can beat up your church father. Yeah. That's what
41:58: I say. And I want to get a t -shirt that says, well, that, another one that says, so much heresy, so little time.
42:05: But the thing is that so many of the church fathers contradicted themselves and each other. That's not to mean that they're all wacky.
42:12: No. But if you were to go to this really cool website called CARM and you were to look up the church fathers' issues,
42:19: I've got quotes from different church fathers where they say faith alone. I'm looking at it right now. Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Augustine, Chrysostom, Justin Martyr, et cetera.
42:28: And I'll show this to people. And if they want to say their church fathers, well, why do you go with that church father?
42:35: Well, that church father and a particular quote from that church father, what he does, hold on a sec,
42:42: I got a little something going on. No. Okay. The church fathers, I'll say, well, why do you pick that church father?
42:49: And the reason is because it suits their theological presuppositions. And that's what it comes down to.
42:55: So I'll just say, look, I don't go with the church fathers. I don't trust the church fathers. I trust the inspired word of God.
43:01: I don't trust tradition. That doesn't mean we don't look at tradition, doesn't mean we don't look at the church fathers, but all need to be subjected to the truth of God's word.
43:09: When you have God as your anchor, the word of God as your anchor, then you're going to be less likely to get into error.
43:14: You start looking at the church fathers, you're going to pick which ones you like, and then the truth will become subjective to your preferences of what you like.
43:21: And whatever church father then says what you like, and then you can start believing more, excuse me, of that particular church father in other areas.
43:28: So, you know, stick to the word of God. Stick to the word. My church father can beat up your church father, and then we go into that.
43:36: Very good. Okay, so next one, Matt. It's a big one. It's often quoted, and it's amazing if you just look at the passage, what you'll gather from it.
43:46: But it's 1 Peter 3, 21 -22, this prefigured baptism, which saves you now, and is not the removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
43:55: Okay, so 1 Peter 3, 21 -22, that one. Yeah, I love that verse, because usually what they'll do when they quote it is they say, baptism now saves you.
44:06: See? There it is. There's your proof, Matt. And what you could tackle different ways.
44:11: So faith doesn't save you? You're not justified by faith? You're justified by baptism? Is that what you're saying? You can just work with what they're saying.
44:17: But it does say, I use the Pauline version, the New American Standard, and it says, corresponding to that, that's what
44:26: I like, I like the NSB. And the Greek word there is antitupon. It's an antitype.
44:32: In other words, what is it referring to? And corresponding to that, what's the antecedent of that? The antecedent, what comes before it?
44:39: What you've got to do is you've got to look at the previous verse. Who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
44:51: Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. Now, I'll ask them, so corresponding to what, baptism now saves you?
44:58: Because that's the context. And they'll often say, well, water. Because look, it says they're brought through the water. Okay, did the water save Noah?
45:04: No, it did not. The ark saved Noah. That's right. And they entered the ark, eight people, which is really an interesting number, but I won't get into that.
45:13: And they entered into the ark, which had one door. Jesus is the door, the way, the truth, and the life.
45:19: Nobody comes to the Father but through Him, John 14, 6. And God closed that door when they entered, and God opened that door when they exited.
45:27: And the Bible says what God closes, I don't know where the verse is, no man can open, and what He opens no man can close.
45:33: So what saved Noah and his people? Well, it was the ark.
45:38: That's right. No, I don't want to admit that, you know, because they won't say they don't want to admit it, but that's what it is. And I'll say, well, obviously what it's referring to.
45:46: Now, generally speaking, exegetically, the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun that refers to the closest thing behind it, generally speaking, but not always.
45:56: So what brought them through the water was the safety of the ark that they entered by faith, because the water was not yet falling until they were getting that ark.
46:08: This is why Peter then says not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.
46:15: That's the baptism he's talking about. Now, here's another question about this text. Is the baptism here talking about water baptism?
46:23: People will assume all kinds of things, and I don't. Try not to anyway, because there's different kinds of baptisms in the
46:31: Bible. That's right. And there's a baptism of the Holy Spirit. There's a baptism of fire.
46:37: There's a baptism of persecution. There's a baptism of water. And there's different forms of that,
46:42: I believe, and the way it's used. And so which is it talking about? Now, they have to then prove that it's water baptism, and in the case of Church of Christ, that it's water baptism by immersion.
46:53: By immersion. Were they immersed? Was Noah immersed in the water? Nope. No, he was not. And, you know, all of a sudden they're going, well, okay, we've got to look at this more closely.
47:01: Please do. Because when you start doing that, you start finding out that your assumptions don't always necessarily fit.
47:07: It looks like what Peter's talking about here in the baptism is that the baptism is relating to the appeal of a clean conscience.
47:14: And it might be the case, just might be the case, that the baptism that he's talking about here is simply a faithful appeal to God, because when we have the baptism of the
47:22: Holy Spirit coming upon us, it's an immersion into, but it's also a pouring upon.
47:28: Because that's how the Holy Spirit comes upon in that baptism. Could it be related to that?
47:33: I haven't worked out the details for that as yet. But at any rate, so 1 Peter 3 .21 does not teach water baptism by immersion as necessary for salvation, because there are references to the ark which are entered by faith, and baptism doesn't correspond to the water but to the issue of faith, so therefore it's an issue of faith.
47:49: Yeah, it's important, too, because a lot of times what we will do, and I think everyone's guilty of this at times, is that you'll have a presupposition or understanding or you'll have a certain list of words that correspond to theological beliefs or understandings, and you'll look at the text and you'll see your word.
48:06: And you'll go, oh, that must be my thing. And so you sort of read it right into the text rather than saying, no, let's read
48:11: Peter here. What's he saying? Who's he talking about? And I love what Matt did there. He talks about like, well, what saved
48:17: Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? It's not the water. Question, I'm going to ask you this in terms of like thinking of like, oh, baptism in water.
48:26: See, that's water baptism. Very important question. I humbly want to ask it.
48:32: Was the water good for people or bad for people in Noah's day? Was it a good thing or a bad thing?
48:39: Positive experience for those who were baptized in that water, immersed in it, or was it a bad thing for those people who were immersed in that water?
48:48: The ark is the issue there. Jesus is the issue. Well, you know, I'm going to interject because you can go to Matthew 24,
48:54: Luke 17 as it wasn't days of Noah. So it should be the days of coming of the Son of Man. And the flood came in, as Luke 17 says, came in, destroyed them all.
49:02: That's right. Those are the ones who were taken, incidentally, not the good. Not the good. It was the wicked who were taken. The wicked, yes.
49:07: That's how the Bible uses the issue of the Noahic flood, a means of destruction. Now, someone might come back and say, then your sins are destroyed in baptism.
49:17: And I'll say, okay, so let's go talk about the blood of Christ. Yeah. Let's go to 1
49:22: John 1, 7 -9. But they need a theology lesson at this point. But that's another sidestep you can go to.
49:29: Yeah, exactly. Also, Peter's talking about people there. Yeah. So very good, Matt. Thank you for that.
49:34: And let's do another one just to make sure that we're trying to address as many of these proof decks as we possibly can here.
49:41: Another one, and this is a popular one, and it's amazing to me it's popular because when someone quotes it to me,
49:47: I understand at that moment that they may not understand the transmission of the text of the
49:53: Bible through time and how we've had God's inerrant word brought to us through this free transmission that he's preserved.
50:01: They don't understand issues maybe of textual variance, those sorts of things. But they'll go right to Mark 16, 16 where it says, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
50:10: Whoever does not believe will be condemned. See? Believes and is baptized is saved. So my response,
50:16: I'll just say quickly, Matt, is I say, A, this is one of, two passages in our
50:21: New Testament that are there and usually in brackets in the NASB or the ESV to tell you that these aren't in the original manuscripts.
50:28: And so that's an indicator, like, you need to think about that as that part of the original text or not. But also, well, let me have you answer it,
50:36: Matt, and I'll come in after you. Go ahead. Well, that's a very important issue. There are three primary areas of textual concern.
50:43: This is one of them in the New Testament, that is. And what I'll do is, I'm trying to find, remember the research, but there are 17 new words that appear in these 11 verses,
50:56: Mark 16, 9 through 20. 17 new words that don't appear in the entire Gospel of Mark.
51:02: Now, why is it that Gospel of Mark is written and then in this little bitty fragment at this end, 17 whole new words appear?
51:10: When I was reading, researching this years ago, it said 17 non -Markan words used in a non -Markan sense.
51:17: And it seems to be that what I suspect happened is, since the New Testament document is written in codex, which is pages, the page may have fallen off, may have lost it, or the abrupt ending, and a scribe wanted to add something in, and he did it in his own writing in a margin, and it got added in.
51:33: I suspect something like that occurred. But here's something to note about this text. There's two important things.
51:39: It says in Mark 16, 16, He who believed and is baptized shall be saved.
51:45: And I'll ask him, is it true that he who believes and goes to church will be saved? Well, what's the emphasis on belief?
51:54: Because it says, he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. It doesn't say he who is not baptized will be condemned. And it says, so if you want to look at the text, is it true?
52:02: He who is baptized and goes to church, who's baptized, excuse me, who believes and goes to church, believes and reads the
52:08: Bible. Well, yeah, they're saved, but it's not the combination that saves them. It's those who believe and confess
52:14: Christ. Well, that's more biblical. But this is an issue I ask them, and it's worth a discussion to see how they're going to think, which
52:20: I like to probe a lot when I'm debating people. But look at verse 12. This is really important as well.
52:26: Not many people when they're addressing this issue of Mark 16, 16 will go to verse 12 because it says there, after that, he appeared in a different form.
52:34: Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they're walking along on their way to the country. Wrong.
52:42: He did not appear in a different form. Jesus prophesied his own physical resurrection in John 2, 19 through 21.
52:48: And in Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, 35 through 45, says that the body that is dead is the body that is raised.
52:56: Now, Jesus retained his crucifixion wounds. You can go to John 20, 25 through 28, put your hand into my hand, or your finger into my hand, your hand into my side.
53:06: It's the same body he died in. It's not a different form. It's not a heterosexual.
53:13: It is the same body. So this is a very serious problem here that the text presents.
53:20: And so I'll say to the people, if you have to go to Mark 16, 16 to support your view, you're on shaky ground to begin with, let's talk about it and I'll explain these things to them.
53:28: And like I did in the debate on Monday night, the guy just ignored all the evidence and kept asserting it. So, in other words, he did not look at the facts.
53:36: He had an agenda that was more important than the facts. Yeah, an important conversation, and I just want to point to, in terms of having someone reflect, when you appeal to a proof text like this, that's in one of, we're talking like three parts in the
53:51: New Testament that we know these aren't in the earliest manuscripts, they just appear and they even float around at times, there's a longer and shorter ending of Mark, all these things, very, you know, it doesn't affect our understanding of what the original text was, but we understand what the pericope adultery is and, you know, it's trying to find a home early on as it's going through the transmission, those sorts of things.
54:15: When you go to a text like Mark 16 to buttress your view, I think you're doing it on spurious grounds, but also, what's the text say?
54:24: It says, whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, because that's what Christians do, they believe and are baptized, but it says this, whoever does not believe will be condemned.
54:32: So what is connected to the condemnation, not believing? So even if you wanted to use a proof text from Mark, the longer ending of Mark, not in the earliest manuscripts, even if you wanted to do that, what's the text say?
54:47: Whoever does not believe will be condemned. Not believe and not baptized will be condemned.
54:52: Whoever does not believe will be condemned, because it's belief, of course, according to Christians throughout history, that is connecting us to Jesus.
55:01: It's uniting us to Jesus Christ for eternal life and for forgiveness and salvation. So, we could do more.
55:08: Well, let me throw another one out here, I think it's a good example of a proof text and not read in full and context.
55:14: Matt, do you have something you want to say? No. Okay, good. You're doing great. Alright, thank you, brother. So, Acts 22, 16, another example of, here's the word baptized, okay, that must mean it.
55:25: So, Acts 22, 16, he says this, and now, why do you wait? Rise and be baptized!
55:32: And he says this, and wash away your sins, calling on his name! And people go, see, it says right there, rise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
55:40: So, that must mean, like, baptism is a part of that, and what
55:46: I'm going to say is the text is speaking very, very clearly. It's in the context of all that's going on in the book of Acts, and the same gospel message being preached about turn to Christ to live, repent so your sins will be blotted out, all that stuff.
55:56: It says, wash away your sins, calling on his name. So, again, it's that faith commitment to Jesus that's connected to the washing away of sins.
56:05: Here's the thing, there is no debate here, at all, when we say that water baptism does not save you, it does not justify you, it does not give you eternal life, we're not saying that Christians don't get baptized.
56:17: And the command is not to get baptized. We're saying how a person actually is joined to Jesus is in the same way
56:24: Abraham was joined to God. He was given faith, and faith alone, before any ceremony or any law, in terms of Moses, was given.
56:34: So, if that, if you are a child of Abraham, you gotta have a faith like his, and he was declared righteous before he even received the sign of the old covenant, the circumcision.
56:44: So, Paul makes a point about that, I think we should too. Matt, go ahead, Acts 22. Well, I could just say, they call upon the name of the
56:53: Lord, that's what saves them. The phrase, call upon the name of the Lord, and calling on his name, is something out of the
56:58: Old Testament. And it's a very interesting phrase, I've done a lot of study on it, and it's one of the proof texts I use with cults to demonstrate that Jesus Christ is
57:05: God in flesh, to call upon the name of the Lord, and that phrase is used of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 1, 2, call upon the name of the
57:11: Lord of us, Jesus. And I could get into it, but I won't. It's the issue of the calling that is the thing that saves us and washes us.
57:21: Now, we've got to be careful here, because if we're going to say either way that washing in water forgives you, or calling forgives you, in Reformed theology, regeneration preceding faith, this gets a little bit more nuanced.
57:37: And I don't want to get so complicated people can't understand what I'm saying. But this is a very interesting text, and I can spend a lot of time on it, and ask some questions, and we can do some peripheral teaching that relates to it, and we learn a lot in the process.
57:50: But instead of doing all of that, we don't have time for that. I've got a quote that I think is worth looking at, from Evangelical Commentary in the
57:59: Bible. And when someone knows something better than me, I'm going to quote them. And this is what it says. A literal translation would reveal that there are two commands in the strict sense, each associated with a participle, which can be taken as a command.
58:15: The command, be baptized, is connected with the words, get up, which are one word in Greek and a participle, while the command, wash away your sins, is connected with the participle of calling on his name.
58:25: Thus, baptism does not cleanse from sin, but the calling on the Lord does.
58:30: To summarize, a more literal rendering would be, having gotten up, be baptized, having called on the name of the
58:37: Lord, be cleansed from your sins. And so the idea that the Greek is emphasizing here is that baptism is something that the calling on is the thing that is associated with the forgiveness of sins.
58:49: Because to call upon the Lord is an Old Testament phrase that deals with the issue of crying out to God.
58:56: You can go to Psalm 116 .4, Zechariah 13 .9, for example. They called upon the name of the
59:01: Lord, O Lord, I beseech thee, save my life. It's a prayer. It's an issue of prayer, worship, and adoration.
59:07: And this is why the phrase is used in Acts 22 .16, to call upon the name of who? The Lord Jesus.
59:13: It's an issue of worship, which nobody can do unless they're saved. And then we get into total depravity and some other things.
59:20: Like I said, it's a really interesting verse, and I'd love to get into it in more detail. I could spend an hour on it, going through stuff and really confusing the heck out of people before we put it together.
59:30: And then they go, oh, that's right, that's what you said at the beginning. See? Yes. So last one,
59:36: I know you have, time is short, you're getting ready to do your show, Matt, so I appreciate it. I've got another 20 minutes before I've got to be gone.
59:41: Perfect. So however long you want. I'll make this easy, brother, in terms of just give us one more.
59:48: Titus chapter 3, popular one. It says, verse 4, But when the goodness and loving kindness of God, our
59:57: Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy.
01:00:04: By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly and abundantly through Jesus Christ, our
01:00:10: Savior, so that being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
01:00:16: It's always amazing to me people would actually appeal to this. It says what it says and it's nothing to do with water baptism.
01:00:22: Go ahead, Matt, go ahead. I'll let you run. The Greek word there is latruo, not baptizo. Yes. And the washing of regeneration.
01:00:29: In other words, regeneration is the issue, that's the washing. That's right. Not water baptism.
01:00:35: Very simple. What people do very quickly is read into the text what they want it to say.
01:00:42: And I can show people, I show Christians this all the time. I'll ask them a question. Yes, that's correct.
01:00:47: And then I'll show them how the scriptures contradict what their assumptions are. Because we have this view.
01:00:53: People who hold to baptismal regeneration must have a mindset that things about washing and water and stuff in a lot of context must mean water baptism.
01:01:04: So he'll say, by the water baptism of regeneration. But it doesn't say the water baptism of regeneration.
01:01:11: It says the washing of regeneration. Latruo. It does not say baptizo.
01:01:17: And so this is not talking about water baptism. It's talking about the issue of the regenerative work of God that washes and cleanses us.
01:01:24: And that's what's going on. Exactly. Well, Matt, why is this issue important?
01:01:30: Why? Why does it matter that we dot our eyes and cross our fingers on this point?
01:01:36: Why not just, why not make room to say, eh, maybe it happens in the water. You know, maybe it's trusting in Jesus and then, you know, a couple days later getting in that water.
01:01:46: That's when the real salvation takes place. What's important about this in terms of the gospel?
01:01:52: Eternal damnation versus eternal salvation. It's very simple. We're justified by faith alone.
01:01:58: Romans 4 .5, Romans 3 .28, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
01:02:04: Paul teaches this, Jesus goes, I've got lots of verses about this. The issue is this, you're either justified by faith when you have faith or you're not justified by faith when you have faith.
01:02:14: If you have to add anything to the work of Christ, then the work of Christ is not sufficient for you in and of itself.
01:02:20: And you're saying that the blood of Christ is not sufficient in and of itself to save you. And by saying that, by implying that, you're rejecting the atoning work of Christ.
01:02:28: If you, if anybody out there affirms that you must believe Christ and whatever it is in order to be saved, you're a false convert or you're a convert who doesn't know the truth yet.
01:02:40: And you can come to that truth in a more intelligent, biblical fashion. People can be saved in varying degrees of error.
01:02:47: But once you're regenerate, you eventually will come to that knowledge of truth in a more complete and precise way.
01:02:53: Anybody and everybody who teaches that water baptism is a requirement for salvation, therefore, must mean that all babies go to heaven or go to hell.
01:03:02: All aborted babies go to hell. People who receive Christ on their deathbed and don't get baptized go to hell.
01:03:07: The man who receives Christ on one side of the street, trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ, runs across the street to get baptized, dies in the middle of the road from a car accident, then goes to hell.
01:03:16: And what it would be saying is the death of Christ is not sufficient in and of itself and your faith in what he has done is not sufficient in and of itself to save you by the faith that God grants to you,
01:03:26: Galatians 1 .29, that he works in you, John 6 .28 .29. It would be saying that the blood of Christ isn't enough, and my faith in what
01:03:34: Christ has done is not enough. And therefore, it falls under the purview of Galatians 1 .8 .9, if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to a gospel contrary to what he preached to you, let him be accursed.
01:03:43: And he repeats himself. This is very important. The gospel is this, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins, 1
01:03:52: Corinthians 15 .1 -4. And we obtain the righteousness of God by faith, by faith alone, in Christ alone.
01:03:58: Romans 4 .5 is one of the best verses for that. So the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
01:04:09: Not his faith when he gets baptized, because that's not faith justification when you believe, it's faith when you do something, and that is a slap in the face of God.
01:04:18: And these poor people who are hearing this false gospel of baptismal regeneration need to repent and stop preaching their demonic doctrine to others.
01:04:26: They need to believe in the truth of the word of God, Jesus Christ as God in flesh, died on the cross, rose from the dead.
01:04:31: He's still a man right now. He has two distinct natures. This is who he is, and if we want to be with him forever, the only way is by faith alone, in Christ alone.
01:04:40: You can't add anything to what Christ, God in flesh, has done. This is how important this is. This is why
01:04:45: I fight to preach and teach the truth of who Christ is and what he's done. And that's the important thing that we all, as ministers of the gospel, must promote and defend.
01:04:56: Thank you, Matt. Preaching over there. Need to pass a plate. Do you want to add something,
01:05:03: Luke? No, I was just getting fired up. Matt's getting fired up, and I'm excited now.
01:05:08: All right, Matt. Hey, thank you, brother. down. I know, that's just sitting down. Hey, I wanted to chat with you, too, because we got some stuff we're putting into our documentary.
01:05:16: Hopefully I can try to get you to contribute to it, as well. I'll give you a call, okay? Sure, sounds good. All right, bless you, man.
01:05:21: Hope you have a great show today. Thanks, Matt. By God's grace, I will. All right. Thank you, brother. All right, guys.
01:05:27: Thank you. Thank you for being on karm .org. Make sure you guys go check it out, guys. Lots of great resources there.
01:05:33: You guys, I think, will really enjoy it. It'll be a big help to you guys. If you guys might want to go to a particular passage, you want to have a particular challenge answered, 25 years of investment to produce articles, responses to people who are antagonistic towards the
01:05:46: Christian faith. Very important. Good ministry. Grateful for it. And love, Matt.
01:05:51: Something I want to ask, because this is a critical issue. We're talking about justification.
01:05:58: How a person is declared righteous before a holy God. How do you have peace with God? Faith in Jesus. This is important.
01:06:06: Let me ask it in this way. If you are on the other side of this, and you would say, no, it's faith, and then, you know, down the road, or whatever, baptism, like, it's those things together, and then justification, salvation.
01:06:20: So it's like, these things play together. So I would say, so would you say that baptism is part of the gospel?
01:06:30: Like, like, that's, that's, that's part of the package. Like, you know, here's what
01:06:36: Jesus did, now it's faith, and it's baptism. It's part of the gospel. That's what you need to be doing.
01:06:41: That's got to be your emphasis, because it's part of the whole package. And if you said, yeah, yeah,
01:06:47: I think that's, that's true, then I would just point you to the Apostle Paul's words in 1
01:06:52: Corinthians chapter 1. There's a particular background and context to this that Paul was trying to deal with, but I want you to hear what
01:07:01: Paul says here in 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 10. He says, I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our
01:07:07: Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
01:07:14: For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says,
01:07:20: I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, or I follow Peter, or I follow Christ.
01:07:25: He says, is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? He says this, listen closely to this.
01:07:34: I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.
01:07:42: I did baptize also the household of Stephanus, beyond that. I do not know whether I baptized anyone else. Well, you just forgot?
01:07:50: Like, that thing that saved somebody, like, that was like, you know, you just,
01:07:56: I don't know. I don't know. He says this, he says, for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
01:08:07: So, for the Apostle Paul, you got two categories here. Baptism, which is vitally important, very important.
01:08:14: We're not dismissing the beauty and glory of baptism at all. We're talking about how a person is justified before God, what's a part of the gospel proclamation, how is a person joined to Jesus Christ, and the
01:08:25: Apostle Paul has two categories. You got baptism right here, and you got the gospel right here, proclamation of the gospel. He says this,
01:08:31: Jesus didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. But wait a minute, wait a minute, Jesus sent us into the world so that people would be saved, and if baptism is a part of the salvation message, it's part and parcel to it, then yes,
01:08:45: Jesus did send Paul to baptize, because it's absolutely necessary for salvation. Listen, the inspired
01:08:52: Apostle can't say that God didn't send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel, if baptism is necessary for salvation to join someone to Jesus Christ, if it's not faith in Christ.
01:09:05: Do you see the point? For Paul, he has a category for baptism, and a category for the gospel.
01:09:10: And you just simply cannot put those words in Paul's mouth if baptism is what regenerates us, brings us to Jesus, saves us from our sins, washes us from our sins, if that ceremony, that act of baptism is what does that, then
01:09:24: Paul can't say that and be consistent. Because, again, Paul says,
01:09:29: Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. But to preach the gospel. Again, you might say, yeah, but I don't know how that works out.
01:09:37: Listen, Paul wanted people to know Jesus and be saved. So, if baptism is the way that happens, then
01:09:44: Paul cannot be saying that God sent him to preach the gospel not to baptize. Because, baptism is essential for salvation.
01:09:51: Do you see the point? It doesn't work with the apostle's own words. Also, listen, just read the rest of Paul.
01:09:59: It's faith, faith alone, apart from works, Jesus, and he's condemning and says anathema to people who would try to add anything to the gospel, whether it's the old covenant sign of circumcision or anything else.
01:10:09: He says, Christ has been of no benefit to you, whosoever you intend to be justified by law, you've fallen from grace.
01:10:15: He said that the people who try to add faith and just this one thing of the law, circumcision, just take this sign, just do that. He says, no benefit to you at all.
01:10:24: It's an important issue and I think, if I could say a final word on this, there's a dangerous game people play.
01:10:33: And listen, I want to just say this, that Christians are guilty of this, many
01:10:38: Christians. I mean, truly, in church history, you have wonderful giants of the faith, fathers, bishops, pastors, missionaries, men and women, just giants, right?
01:10:50: And what people will tend to do, Protestants will do this, Catholics will do this, Eastern Orthodox will do this, is they find a pastor, a church father saying something, like, look, here's a little segment of him saying something and they go, see, he's on my side.
01:11:05: But look, let's be honest, all of us can jump back into that same pastor or father and find him saying stuff on my side.
01:11:14: And so it becomes a dangerous game we play where we can manipulate history and the evidence to draw disciples to ourselves.
01:11:21: You see, look at these guys over here, they taught this, they did infant baptism, oh, yeah, they adopted a tradition and that's not how you defend infant baptism, the question is, how do you know it's true?
01:11:31: Is it in Scripture? Great, I'll accept it. Is it in the Bible? Then I believe it. Like, for example, why do we believe the Trinity? Is it because of our simple...
01:11:39: Yeah, yeah. Why do we believe in the Triune God of Scripture? Why do we believe in the Trinity? Do we say, okay, watch, two ultimate standards here.
01:11:46: I believe in the Trinity because ultimately the Word of God teaches it explicitly, implicitly, does it teach it?
01:11:53: Or because the church gathered together and said, this is what we're supposed to believe. Is it sola ecclesia or is it sola scriptura?
01:12:00: Right. Is it the Bible as the reference point or is it the church? And I would say, at what point in history? Because if you said collectively, we base this on collective theological agreement.
01:12:09: I would say, tell that to Athanasius. He'd be in trouble. Right? Because there was trouble with the Trinity in his day.
01:12:15: He's like the last man standing. Yeah. Athanasius contra mundum! Athanasius against the world.
01:12:21: Right? So you say, like theological consensus, like that's the ultimate standard for truth. That's a dangerous game to play, friends.
01:12:28: Is it amazing that in the history of the church wherever the people of God gathered around the
01:12:33: Word of God to seek it for the answers, they got it right? Isn't it amazing? Yes.
01:12:40: It's amazing. How do you know they got it right? Because it feels good to me. Because I agree with it. It goes with my traditions.
01:12:46: No. Because this book says it. The Trinity, from the earliest ages of the church, they're defending the one
01:12:53: God, three persons, the triune God of Scripture from the very beginning on the basis of the Bible. That's why they're doing it.
01:12:58: They're not saying, we've decided as bishops that it's a triune God so you guys better follow along. That's how we're doing this. No. It was, these are teachers gifted by God following Scripture.
01:13:08: And of course, you see in Scripture, sorry, in history, you see many, many church fathers, bishops, pastors, missionaries, writing, and everything else.
01:13:16: Justification by faith is when you believe. It's apart from any work. It's right here. And then, literally, that same father will say later in their stuff, because they have a tradition, but baptism.
01:13:27: That's necessary. It has to happen here. It's like, well, look, I got a fallible man, uninspired man, speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
01:13:37: So thank God for his grace in the gospel and that that person is affirming it's only through faith in Jesus. God's grace even covers our theological errors and inconsistencies.
01:13:46: But we can't go to the church, fallible men, uninspired men, for a grounding for truth.
01:13:52: It's got to be the Word of God. I was just going to say that I've been kind of immersed in the chat thread today.
01:14:03: This was like a moth to the flames right here today. This subject is just, it was like, just all these heretics jumped in here.
01:14:11: I know it would be. They're not even listening to anything that we have said. They're just coming in to preach their false gospel.
01:14:17: But there is one point that I want to mention, because somebody keeps saying this and I'm like, you're not listening.
01:14:23: We are not saying that baptism is not a command. It is absolutely a command post -salvation, not for salvation.
01:14:32: Well, that's a good point. What do we say to people who tell us, I believe in Jesus, but I don't want to get baptized? Then you're probably not saved.
01:14:37: You don't believe in Jesus. That's what we say to them, right? You don't sound like you believe in Jesus. If you don't want to get baptized, you probably don't trust in Jesus.
01:14:45: Right, exactly. If somebody ever came to me and said to us, that's what we say to them every time. Have you been baptized yet?
01:14:51: No, no. Are you trusting Jesus? Yes. Well, are you ready to get baptized? I don't really want to. Then you're ashamed.
01:14:57: You're probably not a Christian. Right. That's what we say. So this whole discussion has not been about the importance and the beauty and the glory of baptism.
01:15:05: Right. It's been about how is a person justified before God? When does it take place?
01:15:10: Exactly. Can I trust in Jesus' words where he says that if I hear his words and believe him,
01:15:16: I'll have eternal life? Is that true? Just take just that, the verse I quoted at the beginning at the radio show today.
01:15:24: Let's just, let's end with that. John 5, 24, Jesus says, and by the way, he says right above that, it's the son who wills who will be made alive and who will save.
01:15:34: That's an important element too. But he says in John 5, 24, I'm going to quote this here while I get this exit music going here.
01:15:41: He says that, truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me has eternal life.
01:15:53: So, hears his voice, believes. They have eternal life and they do not come into judgment, but they've passed from death to life.
01:16:05: When? Heard, believed. Those are the words of Jesus. And again, if you are a fly on the wall, sorry, that wouldn't work.
01:16:13: Flies don't get saved. If you are an image bearer of God on the wall, listening to Jesus in that moment, and tell that, is it true?
01:16:23: Would it be true? You hear him say it and then you trust in him. Would you have eternal life?
01:16:29: Would you have gone from death to life like he promised? Or would something else need to take place before that was accomplished? Do you see the point?
01:16:35: It's a real problem. The Old Testament taught justification through faith alone. The New Testament, whether it's the mouth of Jesus, the apostle
01:16:42: Paul, whether it's John, whether it's Peter, whoever the case may be, the
01:16:49: Bible's consistent on this message. And this is an important discussion to have. Maybe we'll have it more.
01:16:55: All right, that's Luke the Bear. Peace out. I'm Jeff, the Calm Inner Ninja. Thank you guys for watching. We love you guys so much.
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