Matt Slick Live: December 16, 2024

The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. I'm listening to Matt Slick Live.

If you're a newbie, by any chance, because you might be driving around doing some shopping and who is this guy on the radio, last name

Slick. Let me just kind of intro myself. I do it about once a month or so and my name is

Matt Slick for real, my real name and hence Matt Slick Live. We do, well, discussions here on Christian theology,

Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity, Baha 'i Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, UFOs, Logic, Proofs for God's Existence, Subtopics on Baptism, all kinds of stuff.

I did a baptism, I was working on a baptism section on Karm. If you have comments or questions, you want to talk about things, all you have to do is give me a call, 877 -207 -2276,

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C -A -R -M dot O -R -G, put in the subject line, radio comment or radio questions or something like that and I can get to it.

All right, hope you all had a good weekend. On Sundays, I watch a lot of TV, that's my day off, you know, it's one day a week

I get and so I watch TV and that's it with the church and then

I took a buddy out and we had lunch and came back, relaxed, wife and I watched a movie last night, it was nice, nice and relaxing, nice and relaxing.

Every now and then, I'm going to get some steaks, I'm going to learn how to cook them really nicely, they're good and finding out what kind of style my wife likes.

For all these years, I finally discovered how rare she likes her steaks,

I don't get it because to me, it's still moving, I don't get it but that's what she likes, you know, just stuff like that, rambling, you know.

Now look, so today, before the show, I was in a clubhouse and I went into a discussion room called

The Dark Side of Calvinism and I just got a kick out of it and so I went in there and it's guys

I know and they were discussing, let me crack it up, they were discussing, there's a hate group, don't like reform theology and it said

The Dark Side of Calvinism and I immediately started thinking of some guy dressed in black, you know, black hat, black gloves and he's just moving between the shadows, you know,

The Dark Side of Calvinism, things they don't want you to know and so I was cracking up,

I thought it was hilarious and so we were talking about it and guess what it is?

Guess what the hate group says is The Dark Side, that we believe that God predestines people.

There you go, that's it, that was it, The Dark Side and when

I got on and just started talking about how God predestined them to hell for no reason and that's not what reform theology teaches.

So you know, it was interesting because the hate group doesn't want to represent the other side properly because if they did, then they'd have to eat their own words and they don't want to do that because they've got too much at stake, their own emotions, their own reputation in this.

Anyway, it's not a big deal, it's just some of the stuff I have to deal with and encounter and for me, you know, it's part and parcel of being an apologist and defending the

Christian faith so there you go. All right, all right, all right, let's get to Jeremy from somewhere, hey

Jeremy, welcome, you're on the air. Good evening, Mr.

Schlecht. Hey, how are you doing? Can you hear me? Yes, I can, yes,

I can. So what do you got? I'm doing better than I deserve. So I wondered first,

I called about the divine nature and human nature of Christ and the two wills and you brought me to diathelicism,

I was apologetic, you probably don't remember but I'm very thankful that you went over that. Well good, praise

God, just moving people to orthodoxy. I was calling about divine impassibility.

All right. I have no issue with it, I believe God expresses emotion but he is unchanged by that emotion, he just expresses his own attributes as it is, like we can fall into his hatred, we can fall into his wrath but it's unchanging, would that be correct to say?

Well let's discuss it a little bit, let's discuss it. So when we say God is unchanging, what we're talking about is immutability, that his nature does not change, is not altered, his characteristics of his divine quality being

Trinitarian, etc. and holy and omniscient on the present is unchanging and cannot change in any way, shape or form.

That's what the unchangeableness of God is, okay? With me?

Good. Now impassibility deals with the idea that God, because of his unchangeability, cannot be and is not affected emotionally, that he does not experience emotional changes or suffer the way people do.

That's what it basically is. Are you with me so far? Absolutely.

Okay. I'm not exactly sure what position you were kind of leaning to there, let me give you just mine and we can talk about it.

So I have an article called, What's the Impassibility of God, and I wrote it back in 2017. So can

God be emotionally affected? Can he? Now impassibility says no, neither externally or internally, by something or someone other than himself.

And I don't know if I agree with that. And because we grieve the

Holy Spirit, and Jesus got angry. So he grieves, he loves, he hates.

So we see him expressing that emotion, but it doesn't change who he is or drive who he is.

I don't know. I noticed. I don't know. I noticed a link off of that article to Blue Letter Bible that Don Stewart wrote.

Are you familiar with what I'm speaking about? Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. Okay. I don't think that is a correct representation of divine impassibility because he only directs it to people denying that God shows emotion.

But inside of divine impassibility, there's an agreement that God expresses emotion.

It just does not change or drive who he is. Well, I don't know. I can't say yes or no.

See, we have a lot of issues here. For one thing, God knows all things eternally.

So if he knows all things eternally, does he know, for example, Psalm 5, 5, Psalm 11, 5, he hates all who do iniquity and he abhors them.

That's what it says. So does he hate? Well, yeah, he does. Does he love? Of course he does.

You know, John 3, 16. So now we get the issue of if he's from all eternity, it's hard to explain, from all eternity when the

Trinity was the only thing that existed and he knew that individuals were going to do evil.

And as Psalm 5, 5 says, he hates all who do iniquity. Then is he hating them who have not existed yet?

Or is it the case that the manifestation of his hatred towards them occurs once they've sinned?

They're just questions. These are questions we have to ask. And if we want to say the first, that he's hated them eternally, we have some other questions that relate to this.

And this has to do with ordination, primary, secondary causation.

We have deficient and proximate causes, and it gets complicated.

And so I'm not sure how to say it, but I just say this, that God has emotions.

He experiences them and experiences them for real. And that he does things related to his emotions.

But he does them because they're eternally known by God and that they actually occur in real time in relationship to us.

Now, this is hard to get through, but that's what I hope to. Would we say he acts out of his character instead of, so he acts out of who he is, instead of emotions?

Well, I don't know. Because his emotions are part of who he is. God loves.

And in the eternal Trinitarian communion, the love of God existed, 1 John 4, 8. And in Hebrews 13, 20, the eternal covenant, which

I suspect is the inter -Trinitarian communion, but there's a discussion about that. So it says in Psalm 5, 5, the boastful shall not stand before your eyes.

You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood. The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

So this is the psalmist writing. Now, on the human level, we can say, well,

God hates and abhors and he destroys. And the destruction here is related to the iniquity of the individual.

So God is then expressing his judgment upon them and his abhorrence and his hatred for their evil and judges them for it.

That's what it seems to suggest right there in Psalm 5, 5 and verse 6.

So I, you know, and then on the other hand, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead,

I think he is affected by our actions, but I just don't know how he's affected.

He's not affected in the changing of his nature. But if I, if I am in deep prayer or you and I, you know, you know, whatever, if Christians are in deep prayer and fellowship with the

Lord, real, real deep fellowship and humility before God, is

God affected by that? Does he like that? Is it pleasing to him? I would say, yeah.

I would say there's a real action and interaction that we have with them. Because here's another thing, if, if, you know, when we get to heaven and we're before Christ and we speak to him and we ask him a question, he answers a question hypothetically.

Then are we affecting God? Yes, but we're not affecting him ontologically, his nature's not changing and the eternal decrees aren't changing, but we're asking a question.

He's reacting to the question. So there's an effect upon him. Now, how down to, how far down do we look at the effect?

Is he changing his will because of me? Well, eternally? No. Okay. So this is, this is, this is not an easy one to get into.

It's not, but that's why defining terms is so important.

Was it mean to affect God? We can't affect him and change his nature. We can't affect his eternal decrees, but we can affect him in his emotions and we can please him in our fellowship.

God is faithful through whom you're called in the fellowship of the son of Christ Jesus. First Corinthians 1 .9. If we're in that fellowship according to his will, does it please him?

Yes. Is not being pleased an emotion? Yes. Is he pleased when we repent of our sins?

It's a yes. So if we're to say, well, he's not affected by anything I do, well, in what way is he not affected?

Because Jesus, who's God in flesh, was certainly affected by the people who killed him. He bled on the cross.

He answered questions. Even Mary in John two, you know, uh, said, can you take care of this, this wine problem?

And he said, what am I to do with you, woman? And which is, it wasn't his time to die.

And she misunderstood who he was, what was going on. But that's another issue. But he did this because he did what she asked because he's made under the law, had to obey the parents.

Galatians 4 .4. So there's anyway. So he was God in flesh and he was affected and he got a little irritated with her just a little bit.

Hold on. We got a break. There's more to this. We'll be right back, folks. After these messages, please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it is easy to do.

All you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

Let's get back on with Jeremy from Kentucky. Welcome, brother. You're back on. Awesome.

Do you think this has anything to do with where his attributes can't, so they say in a steady stance, like it can't increase, it can't decrease, right?

That's correct. Yes. Now, we've got to understand the difference between attributes or properties of God and him expressing them.

So the properties emanate out of the ontos. So the ontological nature of God, the essence of what he is, the triune being that cannot increase or decrease and his properties related to it, the characteristics related to him can't decrease or increase, can't change.

But how he relates to us can change. So he related to us in the Old Testament in a more covenantal sense under the law in the

New Testament. I'm being very generic here. The New Testament's less so. Okay.

Right. He's intrinsically and intimately involved, but we cannot change who he is, nor would he suffer in any sense.

There's things about it that I can completely agree with. And then there's things where, you know, people take to a real deep end within the anthropomorphic language that I believe they're way off on.

Yep. But I kind of battled with it today, and at times I really thought, yeah,

I understand that and I'm on board with it. But it really did come down to explaining and defining with definition exactly what it means.

Yes, that's the thing, is I tell people, if you want to be good at biblical theology, learn your definitions.

And I mean learn them and learn how they relate to each other. Once you do that, you've mastered biblical theology sufficiently enough to be able to articulate.

So I like to train people so that hypothetically they could get up in front of a crowd, you know, every 20 minutes, and relate it back and forth to each other.

They could just, you know, here's the Trinity, here's the hypothetic union, this is how it works, this is why it relates to justification and the propitiatory sacrifice and things like this.

They need to be able to do that kind of thing in order to have a good understanding of biblical theology.

And once you have that in place, everything else just opens up, because God is theological. Whenever somebody would teach on impassibility, it's always with the immutability of Him and the unchangeableness.

So I've always related us not being able to change who He is, because He will, you know,

He's unchanging, as we said in Malachi, not a variation, or change of shadow, change of self.

But when He's so effective and He does express emotions,

He has emotions, we're made in the image of God, I believe that would be, you know, we don't express them the same way. The way

He expresses them in a divine manner is much different than our preacherly manner. Absolutely.

He has emotions perfectly and without sin. We have them imperfectly and with sin.

So, just remember, you know, use yourself as an example. You're a human being, you have certain qualities and characteristics.

And five minutes ago, none of those were different. You're exactly the same as you were five minutes ago. But, you know, if I ask you a question, what's two plus two, and you say four, you've now interacted, and so now how you've interacted is different than five minutes ago, by asking a mathematical question.

Well, does that mean you're not affected? Well, you're affected. You're affected, but your nature's not changed, but yet how you are related to something has changed.

That's how I see it with God. So, when I was doing the research for the impassibility issue, I remember this.

I remember going, I get what they're saying and stuff, but I can't deny that God's affected by our sin.

He's affected. It saddens Him, but that's eternally known from God. So, then we get into these mysteries.

How can God, who knows from eternity you could do something wrong, be affected negatively by it, you know, in an emotional sense?

And the illustration I give is, when I had children, my wife and I had children, we knew for a fact they were going to disappoint us and upset us.

So, when it really happened, we got upset when they would blow it, you know?

I mean, knowing it ahead of time doesn't mean you're not going to be affected by it. Our nature doesn't change, and God is unaffected by it.

His nature and essence aren't affected by anything, but I believe that He has real emotions in real time, and they really react to us, and He experiences this in real time because we're made in His image.

And we experience Him as He experiences us. That's what I think. Okay? Do you think this has anything on God not being dependent on us at all?

We're being dependent on Him, and we can't change who

He... I'm just trying to figure out what they meant throughout historic Christianity for it to be accepted, and just try to understand it a little more.

I thank you for your insight. That's okay. Okay, but here's the thing is that sometimes

I wonder if people who are discussing this are being too...

or not being precise enough. Maybe they're not, but then again, maybe

I'm not being precise enough. I don't understand the issues as deeply as others, and that's certainly possible. But if we understand that God is non -contingent and has aseity, the unchangeableness and eternal independence of what

He is, well, then our emotions and our interaction with God can't change anything of His nature and His essence.

But on the other hand, He really experiences something with us as we know from Scripture.

As you read my article on this, God has emotions, and He expresses emotions. So I think it's fair to say

He does. And if we're to say, well, He doesn't express emotions, that would just contradict Scripture. Clearly, He does.

So then the effect or the question is, well, how does it affect Him? I'd say it affects

Him emotionally. That's all. I'd say it affects Him emotionally. And it doesn't mean His nature's changed, because part of His nature is emotion.

And He's going to express those emotional things normally as we would. The difference is we are changed.

So we're changed when we are affected emotionally. We can't handle it.

So we would act out in anger or resentment. We would have negative behaviors out of it.

That wouldn't happen with Him. He can grieve and yet be compassionate, love and still hate at the same time.

Something that we wouldn't most likely be able to. His expression of emotions is perfect.

Ours never is. So when He hates and then He destroys Psalm 11, 5 and 6, we know that it's a perfect judgment that comes upon Him.

He has compassion. And this is 1916. He hesitated so that the men seized

His hand and the hand of His wife and the hands of His two daughters for the compassion of the Lord was upon Him. So they have compassion.

This is something I wrestled with in this discussion of impassibility. If God experiences these emotions, then is

He really experiencing them or is He not? Because if He's not experiencing them, then why does the Bible say

He does? If He experiences them, it's not an ontological change, but it's an actual change in the expression of His feelings at that moment.

I have no problem with that, logically. Right. Absolutely.

Brother Slick, you have a wonderful evening, my friend. You too, man. God bless. Good questions. Good discussion, too.

Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We'll get to Glenn and then Kimberly. We'll be right back. Please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Hey, at the bottom of the hour, I want to let you know that this month is

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Let's get on the air with Glenn. Hey, Glenn, welcome. You're on the air, buddy. Hello. Can you hear me?

Yes, I can. Yes, I can, man. So what do you got? My question is

Romans 11, 26 says that in the

Bible it says, In this way all Israel will be saved as it is written.

The deliverer will come from Zion and he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. Now, when he said all

Israel, is he talking about Israel when God declared to be the

God of Israel from the beginning until now? I'm not sure

I understand the question. You mean the nation of Israel? Yeah, I mean the people that he chose, the ones that came from out of Egypt.

Yeah, the Israel nation. He's saying all of Israel. Okay, the Israel nation shall be saved.

Yeah. Even the ones that have passed on before. Well, I was going to get in on that because if they've died,

Hebrews 9, 27 says there's, you know, after you die, there's judgment. If they've not trusted in Christ, then they're damned.

That's just how that is. Now, when it talks about this, the fullness, it says, I don't want you to, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the

Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved just as it is written.

So it appears to be that after the time of the Gentiles, the nation of Israel, in history, whatever that is, that there'll be a mass conversion of the

Jews to the nation of Israel all over. They will become Christians. That seems to be what it's saying. That's what

I hold to anyway. Okay. Okay.

All right. All right. I'm just trying to figure out whether it was from the beginning or, you know, or as you talked about before Christ came on the scene.

Well, you know, the people who were in Israel before Christ came, they were justified by faith, the same as anybody else.

They look forward to the coming Messiah and they'll be judged by the knowledge that they had at that time.

Now, those who are after the fact, there are a lot of Jews who are openly, purposely rejecting who

Jesus is. They can't be saved if they're going to continue with that. However, when the time of the Gentiles has ended because we're grafted in because they broke the

Jews, broke the covenant with God. And so with the Gentiles are grafted in Romans eight. So because of that, my opinion, this is my opinion, is that that Israel will be saved.

One hundred and forty four thousand male virgin Jews are going to go out and preach the gospel everywhere. It's going to be a mass.

Wonderful thing to see. That's what I think. Okay. Okay. All right.

All right. Thank you, Matt. Hey, brother. God bless. All right.

Let's get to Kimberly from Virginia. Kimberly. Welcome. You're on the air.

Hi. Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I'll just ask the question and then I'll hang up for another call or get through.

But I was just curious if you had a take on for First Chronicles and they start the lineage of Israel. Why it goes from states from Adam to set that it doesn't include

Cain and Abel. So thank you. That's okay. There's no way waiting.

Probably because it's a covenant line that is being spoken of the redemptive line. And it didn't go down through Cain and Abel.

It went down through Seth because Seth is part of the ones in Noah's Ark and stuff like that.

Okay. Okay. Well, there's my question. Thank you so much. Have a good night. Okay. All right.

Well, God bless. All right. Okay. Well, we have nobody waiting.

Oh, we got one caller coming in, I think. Oh, that's right. They're right from... How about that?

Right from my city. Right here in Idaho. How about that? Let's get on with Chris from Nampa, Idaho.

Chris, welcome. You're on the air. Hey. Hey, Chris. How you doing, Matt? Yeah, yeah. How you doing,

Matt? Hey, wait. I got to ask. Have we ever met? Yeah, we have. If I went to one of your...

It was like you had some type of... It wasn't like a Bible study. It was more...

Sorry, I'm pulling up here. I'm a truck driver, so they're... They love me, but yeah. You had some type of event, and me, my brother, and I, we went to your thing.

It's been such a long time ago. It was probably like four or five years ago. All right.

I had brought up Matt Dillahunty to you, and I don't know if you remember that.

No, but a lot of people have over the years. Yeah, Matt Dillahunty, the Dillahunty Dodge, I call it, and other stuff, yes.

I think that's a popular thing now, right? Yeah, it was pretty popular for a while.

He didn't like it. He got mad because they kept saying the Dillahunty Dodge, and he put out some information, like, it's not a

Dodge. It wasn't this. It had something to do with... I'm trying to remember. It had something to do with...

There were two options. Which one is it? He said, there's a third option. I said, great. What's the third option? He couldn't tell me what the third option was.

I said, well, how do you know if there's no third option? He closed it up, and then steal it. Anyway, so I know you're working.

Yeah. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, but I had a question about the... If you're familiar with Michael Heiser, with his work?

Yes, I am. Oh, yeah. Okay, so he kind of cites some biblical...

He's a biblical scholar that kind of has a lot of, like, opinions about how things have kind of...

Outside of the Bible, I guess, like UFOs and stuff like that. I wanted your opinion on it. Yeah, Michael Heiser, he's smart.

He's got lots of degrees. You've got a lot of noise in the background there. You might want to mute yourself while we're talking a little bit. There's too much noise. But here's the thing, is that he's taught about the divine council, and it's caused, let's say, some reverberations in the cults, particularly

Mormonism, where the council of gods, and it fits their theology in the divine council.

There's many gods out there, as Mormonism says. And they get this primarily out of Psalm 82.

So then what I do is I go into Psalm 82 and show, no, it's not a council of gods. I need to talk to him one -on -one and ask very specific questions to see, because I'm not going to read eight books of him just to figure something out.

I'm not going to do that. I just need to get some quick answers. So what I have understood him to say, some have told me, they've read his stuff and researched him, they've said that he's not teaching there's actually other gods out there.

And yet he uses the term divine council. And so I'm confused on really what it is, out of the unseen realm and that stuff.

So I don't know. I don't know what to tell you, other than I'm very cautious about him because of it.

You're cautious of his work, okay. Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of speculation, kind of, on his part.

I don't know if you agree with that. I think there's a speculation. I did read some stuff. I think I have some of his work on my computer and in Kindle.

And I was going through some stuff. In fact, if I open it up, I'm trying to remember because I think I opened up his book, The Unseen Realm, and I was going through it on Kindle.

I read everything on Kindle now. And I highlighted some stuff and I went, no, no, no, no, no.

I remember some, no, no, no, I don't agree with that. Now, I've got to make it clear, he's a scholar.

He understands his stuff and it's certainly possible. I'm not getting what it is he's saying. I don't want anybody to think that, oh,

I'm the end of, you know, I don't know all this stuff. But, yeah, here it is, The Unseen Realm. Yep.

And he says, you know, on whatever page it is, page 25, They're divine, but what does that actually mean?

How should we think of them in relation to God? Elohim stands in divine assembly. He administers judgment in the midst of the gods.

And so, what's he saying? And he goes to Psalm 22. Yeah, and I understand what he's doing with the words.

But it's still, it's just, I don't know. You know, I'd have to interview him.

I'd have to talk to him and see what he says, you know, to know. Yeah, you know what? Unfortunately, I think he has passed away, from what

I heard. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, so, but, yeah, he,

I mean, he just, I was watching one of his, I think a documentary or something, and he was talking about, you know, that the aliens, that UAPs and a lot of the things that people are seeing now, you know, are basically, he was referencing, like,

Ezekiel, you know, when he saw the chariots in the sky type of thing.

Yeah, we got to break, we got to go. But, yeah, there's a lot of speculation. It's going way too far. Yeah. Hey, buddy, we got to go, okay?

I agree. I'll see you later, man. Okay, no problem. Okay, good talking. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy to do.

Just dial 877 -207 -2276.

Now, I just want to let you know that December is the matching funds drive that we are having.

So if you donate anything, whatever it is, it will be doubled. And that's it. It's real easy to do. Just go to CARM .org,

C -A -R -M dot O -R -G forward slash donate. And information needs right there.

Instead of a one -time thing, you can do a recurring. We like recurring ones because it does help us to know what budgets and things like that.

But it doesn't matter. Whatever you think is good, if you want to do that at all. And if you don't, that's okay, too. Please pray for us.

We certainly do need that. Let's get to Patrick from Charlotte, North Carolina. Patrick, welcome. You're on the air.

Hi, Matt. How are you doing? Merry Christmas. Doing okay.

Hanging in there. Thank you. Hanging in there. That's good. I got a question about John 1, 6 and 7.

What do you believe the contents of those verses are? The contents are words, verbs, nouns, adverbs, adjectives.

Yeah, but when they're put together, what is it trying to tell us? Sentences. When you put those together, you get sentences.

Okay. Well, I'll tell you what it says. It says, there was a man sent from God.

His name was John. He came as a witness to testify about the light.

And through him all might believe. Was that John the Baptist? And what did he witness to and testify about?

By who Jesus was. Okay. Right. And what did John say? He said, I have seen and testified that Jesus is the

Son of God. So does John the Baptist believe Jesus was God? We don't know what he believed.

I can't say yes or no because it doesn't tell us what he believed. I don't know his heart and mind, to what extent he did or did not know.

Yeah, but Scripture says, he said, I have seen and testified that Jesus is the

Son of God. So John the Baptist did not believe Jesus was God. Well, I don't know how you know the mind of John the

Baptist. This is a problem with your thinking. You call up. You do this a lot. You don't think critically. I'm sorry, but I just tell you like it is.

You don't know the mind and the heart of John the Baptist. All right. You don't. You can't say that. You know what he believed.

He had certain levels of information and knowledge. But we don't know what that was. You can't say he did or did not affirm that Jesus was

God in flesh. Okay. But he was sent from God, according to John 1, 6, 7.

A man was sent from God to witness and testify about the light. So John the

Baptist was sent to tell us who Jesus is. And he did say, I witnessed and testified

Jesus is the Son of God. Yes. And. Yeah. So you keep denying that Jesus is

God in flesh. You keep denying it. You keep denying it. No, but you deny Scripture.

At the baptism, God himself said, this is my son. Could Jesus be

God if God says, this is my son? Yes. How do you figure?

Because of the doctrine of the Trinity. Simple. Yeah. But you got God telling us that at the baptism of Jesus, God said, this is my son.

I'm well pleased. He didn't say Jesus was God. He said, this is my son.

And John the Baptist was sent to witness and testify about the light.

So we have to understand that John the Baptist and God himself do not believe

Jesus is God. So, well, let's let's let's work with what you said. OK, you're quoting

God, God the Father. And, you know, but he says in Matthew 17, five, this is my beloved son, whom

I'm well pleased. Listen to him. Does God the Father tell you to listen to Jesus? Well, does he?

Hold on. Does he? Does God specifically say and tell you to listen to Jesus?

In Matthew 17, five. This is my beloved son, whom I'm well pleased. Listen to him.

So are you going to obey God the Father? Are you listening to Jesus? You know,

Jesus is the son of God. OK, I didn't ask that. I said, are you going to obey what

Jesus what God the Father said to listen to Jesus? Are you going to do that? Right.

I'm going to obey what I just told you to read. John one, six, seven. There was a man sent from God.

His mission was to come and tell us. Patrick, I understand that. I understand what you said.

I got it. I understand it. You also said that God said, this is my beloved son.

You called him the son of God. So I'm playing off of what you said in Matthew 17, five.

God the Father said, this is my beloved son, whom I'm well pleased. Listen to him. Are you going to listen to Jesus?

Are you going to obey what God the Father said and listen to Jesus? Are you? Yeah, because in John 17, five.

The answer is yes, you're going to. Yes. Jesus says, come to me, all who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

So Jesus is the one who gives us rest. And he says, come to him. How do you go to Jesus?

How do you do that? Matthew 11, 28. How do you do it? At the resurrection, Jesus is starting to baptize with the

Holy Spirit. Okay, I ask you a question. Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, think. Jesus says, come to me.

Matthew 11, 28. All who are heavy laden, I will give you rest. Have you gone to Jesus? Have you obeyed

God the Father? He came into my heart and I was born again. I didn't ask that.

I said, have you gone to Jesus? You never answer my question. You always do that. I ask a question and you talk about something else.

Like you say, you didn't ask the right question. You often don't. But look, have you gone to Jesus?

That's what I'm asking. Jesus says, come to me. Have you gone to Christ? He came to me in my heart when

I was born again. Okay, let me ask you a question. Did you go to Jesus? That's my question.

Have you gone to Jesus? He says, come to me, all who are heavy laden. Have you done it?

Have you obeyed Christ and therefore obeyed God the Father? Have you?

I'll ask you the same question. Did you go to Jesus? Yes, I've gone to Christ.

Christ has come to me. He met me when I was 17 years old. I've trusted in Christ. Yep, I've gone to Christ.

Come to him. Right. And you were crying that day near the living water. Okay, so hold on,

Patrick. Have you gone to Jesus? Yes. Okay. 1977, same as you.

I was crying. Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick. I just asked a question. I don't need a biography.

I just asked if you'd gone to him. Now, Jesus says in John 1414, he says, ask me anything in my name and I will do it.

Now, if Jesus is, you're supposed to do what the father says. Listen to Jesus. And Jesus says, ask me anything in my name.

Have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? Have you prayed to him and asked him to forgive you? Well, in John 1416,

Jesus asked the father, you know, glorify me with the glory I had with you from the beginning.

So I'm going to ask you the question again. So Jesus said, ask me anything in my name.

Have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? I prayed to God.

I didn't ask that. I said, have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? You said you brought this up in Matthew 17, five.

God, the father says, listen to Jesus. Jesus says, ask him. So if you don't ask

Jesus, then you're not obeying God, the father, are you? But that doesn't make sense.

Would you want me to answer? It doesn't make sense because to you, it does make sense when you can think clearly and you're not binded, bound by sin and rebellion as you are.

Okay. We talked maybe a hundred times over five years that I've talked to you and I'm trying to show you get right to the heart of the issue.

God, the father, Matthew 17, five says to listen to Jesus. That's what he says.

Matthew 17, five. This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. Listen to him.

Then Jesus says in John 14, 14, ask me anything in my name and I will do it.

So have you asked Jesus? For example, have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? Yeah.

My sins were forgiven in 1977. I didn't ask that.

I said, have you asked Jesus? Have you prayed to the person of Jesus and asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins?

Remember, Matthew, Luke five, 24, he has all authority and he proved it. And you're supposed to receive him.

He forgives sins. Matthew. Let's see. Luke five, 27, 48. He forgives sins. So he has all authority in heaven and earth.

Matthew 28, 18. So shouldn't you go to the one who has all authority in heaven and earth, who says to ask him anything in his name and he will do it.

He forgives sins. And God, the father, tells you to listen to Jesus and do what Jesus says. So why are you not obeying

God, the father? Why are you rebelling against him? Well, no, like you believe, you know,

Colossians two, 14, all our sins are forgiven at the cross. That's not what

I say. But the point that I want to ask you is that's not what I teach. So I'm asking you, have you gone to Jesus?

John 14, 14. Ask if you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. So if you ask, yes, he did it.

He he born again. Me. I'm a new creation. Have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins?

Have you prayed to Jesus back in 1977? I've been a Christian since then. And that's what it all happened when

I was born again. Did did you pray or can you pray to the person of Jesus and ask

Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins? Can you do that? But Jesus says in the Lord's Prayer, our father who art in heaven, hallowed be his name.

Yeah. Matthew 612 and Matthew 6, Luke 11. Yes, I understand that. He also said, ask me anything in my name.

Why do you pick and choose God's word? You only pick and choose what you wanted to say. This is all you do.

I'm trying to help you, sir. Well, you've got to understand,

I've already started off with John one, six, seven. John the Baptist does not believe

Jesus is God and neither does God himself. That's what you think. And so when we go to John 518, which is five chapters later, it says that Jesus was calling

God his own father, making himself equal to God. There's a son of God term. John the Apostle understood it meant to be equal with God.

That's what he's talking about. Yeah, but that's when they were going to stone him for blasphemy because of Jesus. We're just going to move along, folks.

This is a good example of the cult mind. And it's we have talked to him many, many, many, many times.

And he keeps calling back to that. That's fine. But you have to understand, this is what will happen. I do this a lot with people in the cult mind scenario.

I understand her theology. I understand her position. I ask a question that's difficult for them to deal with, and they just avoid the question.

They can't answer the question. Now, you'd think that if someone asked a question that was really pointed and really goes against what you believe and it's right there in Scripture, you'd think, well,

I need to readjust my theology because that's what the Bible says. But they don't. The cult mind does not.

What happens with the cult mind is you subject the Word of God to your understanding.

And you reject certain things that don't agree with your presuppositions and your assumptions. This is a form of idolatry.

Because what the person is doing is raising himself up to be the arbiter of God's Word.

I'm just saying read what it says and do the things that it says. In Matthew 17 5, this is my beloved son whom

I will please listen to him. And Jesus says, come to me. So I'm like, okay, are you doing it or are you going to Jesus?

And notice how he couldn't answer the question. It's very simple and it's direct and it exposes the false teachings of a lot of people.

That's what I like, quick and slick. We are out of time. The music is going to start in like 15 seconds. I hope you had a good time listening and learning a little bit.

And I'm always learning. Even as I teach and answer questions, there are things that sometimes I think, oh, I didn't think of that.

And so I always learn. And don't think that I think that I have all the answers. I certainly do not. Please pray for me because I need to grow in wisdom.

I need to grow in understanding of God's Word every single day. And please remember, hey, by the way, you know, this is

Matching Funds Drive month. So if you want to help us out, all you have to do is go to CARM .org, C -A -R -M dot

O -R -G forward slash donates. And everything you need right there and whatever you give will be doubled, will be matched.

We really appreciate it. God bless everybody. And by His grace, we're back on air tomorrow. And we'll talk to you then.