The Cutting Room Floor Episode 4: "How Does Jesus Rule the Church?"

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are listening to this. I am Kofi Adeboye and I'm here once again with my brother, Eddie Casillas, for episode four of the Cutting Room Floor podcast.

Eddie, how are you doing today?

So far, so good, man. We're excited to talk about the sermon and any questions you might have not raised, so let's do it.

All right. Well, for those of you who maybe are joining us for the first time, the Cutting Room Floor is a ministry of Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Medford, Oregon, and really it's just an opportunity for me to address some of the issues that I maybe didn't get to touch on in the sermon, as well as hit some other areas that might be helpful.

So that's why we call this the Cutting Room Floor. And with that, I will hand over to Eddie, who's going to kind of chair the discussion.

So yeah, thanks, Kofi. So one of the first things I want to address kind of with the outline of the sermon is your sort of what I like to call your preliminary remarks and statements that you say. And so I appreciate your sermon titles, How Does Jesus Lead the Church?

And one of the first things you mentioned that I want you to go over again, if you can, if you're if you're able to maybe name some names, but what was the anti-institution weird blog post?

Oh, heavens. So that was from a website called I think I mentioned in the sermon website called Wicked Shepherds.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

There's one name attached to it, Ken Cascio, who I think is the primary writer. It says he's the webmaster. So he might just be the guy who puts it all up. But as far as I can tell, he might be the primary writer.

That's the person I quoted in the sermon on Sunday. And for those who haven't listened to it, I quoted a lengthy section from a blog post from a website called Wicked Shepherds, where the guy was basically going off on how much he dislikes pastors because pastors basically exist to control everybody and take their money.

And he doesn't need that accountability. After all, he's a Christian. So Christ is his accountability. So that was a shortened summary of what he had to say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I'm not getting so surprised about the different like attitudes that are out there about the church, especially when one comes out in an article like that. But I mean, what I guess, can you expand a little more on why that attitude has come.

Around?

You know, I like that I've had a healthy understanding just in general life about leadership and.

Authority.

It's like when you go to work, those are there. Why would it be any different in the church? You know?

Well, I think for a start, most people hate their bosses. They just haven't got the courage to admit it because they'll get fired. That's the first thing I think in general, human beings ever since the fall don't like.

Authority.

Now, there may be different ebbs and flows in that in society as the case may be. But I think in general, going back to the fall and the rejection of God's authority, we struggle with concepts of authority in general.

And so I think there's a little bit of that going on. I think also as the flow of history has happened and we've had movements like the enlightenment and then the response to the enlightenment, the romantic movement that came along, a lot more emphasis has been placed in lots of people's mind, especially even in the church, on what they would call the internal and subjective part of the Christian.

So for most people, the way it manifests itself is, we'll say, I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I mean, that's a good thing. We should all have a personal relationship with Jesus. But the way that is often said is often said in the kind of way that basically says, as long as I have that, nothing else matters.

So I don't need the church and I definitely don't need some guy who says he or behaves like he knows more than me, telling me how to conduct my personal relationship with Jesus. As long as I'm happy, that's all that matters.

Well, the reality is the New Testament doesn't talk that way. The New Testament is a very church-centered book and it does speak to the presence of leadership in the church, even from the church's earliest days.

Unfortunately, because of high biblical literacy coupled with a culture that already tells us what happens internally is all that matters. So forget this whole talk about relationship with Jesus. As long as you're happy, that's the main thing.

You kind of combine all of those forces together and that's how you end up with something akin to what I read on Sunday. Just this palpable disdain for human leadership. As long as I have a relationship with Jesus and a relationship with God, I don't need everything else.

Institutions are bad. People are bad. Everything is bad except me and Jesus.

Yeah, that attitude is so interesting and just weird that we apply that to work and not always to the church. But let's move forward. How does Jesus lead the church? It's like one of your first points in your sermon after you gave us three truths about Jesus and the way he leads the church.

And so in that point, you mentioned about four things. You said that his rule is lawful, unquestionable, comprehensible, and that he's a loving ruler. Can you expand a little more on the comprehensive section right there that you quoted or that.

You wrote?

So there is nothing in the church that is left to chance or left to our ingenuity. That's what I mean when I say it's comprehensive. It covers everything. So it covers what we are allowed to do and not do in church.

It covers how we deal with sin in the church. It covers how we appoint leaders in the church, both at the elder level and at the deacon.

Level.

It's a bit, if we understand it properly, we'll cover how we view ministry. So everything that the church needs to glorify God comes under the rule of Jesus. And the rule of Jesus, I would argue, is expressed and mediated through the scriptures as we have them.

And the scriptures, we would argue, are comprehensive. They deal with every issue that we could possibly need to deal with. If the scriptures don't address it, either it's not that important or we need to ask ourselves, why are we addressing it?

But when we say that Jesus's rule is comprehensive, it covers everything right down from the foundation of the church to the ultimate goal and purpose of the church. Everything is already covered by Jesus in his word.

I can already hear some super anti-institutional and unauthoritative people say, well, what do you mean about unquestionable, like we can't, we can't question? How would you respond to people asking that question?

Well, again, notice we didn't say humans cannot be questioned. We said Jesus's rule cannot be questioned. So let's make our distinctions a little clear. I would say to that person, we're not saying that human beings are infallible and can never be asked anything.

No, no, no, no. Human beings are actually fallible and you probably should ask them some questions every now and again. What we're talking about, though, is not so much the human leadership of the church when we say that Jesus's rule is unquestioned.

We mean Jesus's rule itself. He, as the head of the church, he is unquestionable. We can't go to Jesus and say, Jesus, I'd like to talk to the complaint department. Heaven has no complaints department.

The heavens rule is final. And unlike a football game or unlike a sports game, like you can't appeal the decision. Once he says this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing. So actually, again, this is where understanding what we're talking about becomes very important.

We are not saying that human beings are. Unquestionable, we're saying Jesus is unquestionable.

Yeah, and that's actually a really healthy thing for the Christian to note, you know, who maybe has been influenced by anti-authoritarian figures, you know, that it's about the leaders and if they're qualified and if they're glorifying the Lord and everything they do and they say in the practice.

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if at the end of the day, what we're saying is when we say as we'll talk about a little bit, you know, the role of elders and submitting to them. Well, ultimately saying that we are submitting to godly authority as it reflects the ultimate authority.

So it's not that, OK, just because somebody has a title or an office that we automatically just sit there and say, well, they spoke, it is what it is. And I don't get to question that. No, actually, you do get to ask some questions.

The key thing is, am I asking the right questions and am I asking the right questions for the right reasons? That's the real heart of the issue.

Yeah, that's a big deal. So Jesus rules the church. Kofi, why doesn't the church rule the church?

Have you ever known sheep to not need a shepherd? The reason Jesus rules the church is because every structured, the only thing that doesn't have hierarchy in it is the triune God. There's no hierarchy in the Trinity.

Everywhere else, God is good to the world where there is hierarchy and structure. So I don't like, as you may have guessed by my answer right there, I don't hold to the view that Jesus is eternally subordinate to the son, to the father, excuse me.

Don't quite hold that view. Yeah, but everywhere else, God creates a world in which things submit. That's just the order of things. So that's one thing. Second thing I'd also note, more importantly from scripture, is that the scripture describes Jesus, excuse me, the church as Jesus's purchase, that he died for the church, he paid for the church with his own blood.

So in, let's look at some scripture real quick and grab my Bible over here. So in Acts chapter 20, which funny enough is a passage addressed to elders in Acts chapter 20, when I'm reading from verse 28 and for tonight, I just grabbed my, I think it's an NAS I have in front of me.

Yes, NAS. It says, be on your guard. This is Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders. It says be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God.

By the way, I think it's interesting. Acts 20 is one place where you have elder, shepherd and overseer all used at once. So again, we'll talk about that later on in the sermon, I'm sure. But again, all three titles used interchangeably here.

Over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood. The church doesn't get to rule the church because the church doesn't own the church.

Jesus is Lord of the church because he died for the church. That's why Paul can also say, I think I quoted this on Sunday, Ephesians chapter five. So Ephesians five and verse just saw this verse. Here we go, Ephesians five, 22 and 23.

So wives be subject to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body. So there you've got a clear link between the headship of the church and Christ being the savior of the church.

Well, how did Christ become the savior of the body? Well, he died for the church.

Mm-hmm.

So the fact that the church is purchased by Christ means the church can't rule itself. The church submits to the gracious leadership of the Lord Jesus Christ. So no, the church doesn't run itself any more than any human runs it.

No, the church is run ultimately by Jesus.

Absolutely. So, you know, the church is so important, but what everything you just said, doesn't that sort of separate us from other traditions that are out there?

It does for some. So, you know, we're not Roman Catholics. We don't believe that the Pope is the visible head of the church or the head of the visible church, I should say. We are not Anglicans. So we don't believe that the King of England or the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the church or the prelate over the church.

No, that would separate us from some traditions. We're not obviously Greek Orthodox. You also have an Episcopal form of church government. We don't hold to those either. You know, we would say that Christ is the head of the church.

You know, as some of my pastor friends say, and rightly so, Jesus is the senior pastor of every church. He's the chief shepherd, not any human being.

Absolutely. And that's a big, big deal, like especially some of the terms you use, senior pastor, you know, I've heard terms like Christ is the chief shepherd and we're under shepherds. And so can you talk a little bit about why some of these terms are unhelpful and why some of them are actually helpful?

Sure.

So I think on an administrative level, it helps to, if you have, okay, certain people who exercise elder leadership, for instance, in particular areas, then yeah, you probably want to have those clearly spelled out.

So this is the pastor who has particular oversight over this area of the work. Because again, no one person should have ultimate control over every aspect of the work. You know, that's why we believe in a, we didn't even get to touch this on Sunday.

You know, this is why we believe in a plurality of elders as the biblical norm. And maybe we can talk about that as we go. One of the reasons we believe in a plurality of elders is it's a fair distribution of labor.

You're going to have some elders who are gifted in some areas and not in others. Well, that can be their primary area. And in that case, yeah, if we say, okay, we have a pastor for discipleship or pastor for member care or past that, I don't personally think that's wrong.

I know there are some people who do, I don't think that's wrong. I think it's when it becomes somewhat hierarchical rather than a first among equals kind of thing. So I don't think it's wrong to have one person who is the lead pastor, but equal to the other elders, you know, that's not wrong.

But when it becomes a sort of hierarchy, again, that's why I don't like the language of senior pastor kind of implies this is the big pasta and everyone else is kind of junior. Well, not really. Um, if the elders are equal to an authority, then that's not really the case.

Right.

So again, I think some of those titles prove to be unhelpful. If we kind of load them with, I don't know, we'll definitely talk about this later, you know, unbiblical expectations that don't match up to the biblical reality.

Yeah. Yeah.

So here's another, okay. So you're going to have to help me out with this because I've heard this, you know, in our circles before, and I don't know exactly how I feel about it. And it has to do with pastors and their ministries.

Okay.

The two part question, um, to what extent do we use a pastor for this particular thing? How far do we go that that's too far? And then also, um, does every person have a ministry, like a pastoral ministry?

Actually, it's more of the same question. So does that make sense?

So when you say this particular thing, you might want to spell that out for me some more.

So like, um, I did skateboard ministry for a long time.

Right.

Would I be, um, a pastoral skateboarder or something like that?

I'll say, I'll say, I shouldn't laugh, but that's the whole skateboard. What's the new one? Um, I mean, I'm sure somebody's done that out there, you know?

Yeah.

I guess, um, yeah, I, I think, yeah, I don't think you make everything have a title. Um, that can get very ridiculous very quickly. Um, this is our chief toilet bowl scrubber, like relax. Um, we don't need a title.

Um, again, as much as it helps administratively, that's one thing. I don't think we need to be just multiplying titles to multiply titles. Um, I honestly think that can just be more confusing than it is helpful.

Um, because what ends up happening is you have some people for whom, um, you know, those titles end up being a barrier. Not so much on their part, as much as the people who come to them. You know, it's one of the reasons that some of us, why I don't like being called pastor a lot.

Um, and one of them, there are a few, but one of them is in lots of people's mind, they treat a pastor kind of like Peter, you know, that story where Peter, I think he meets Jesus for the first time. I think he's in Mark's gospel and he meets Jesus for the first time.

Jesus does this miracle where he's able to catch a ton of fish and Peter's response is depart from me. I'm a sinful man. I think there are some people who kind of have that mindset when it comes to a pastor where he's a really holy person.

And that title just puts a barrier between me and him and where I don't see that in the scriptures. Now there may be, okay. If a church grows to a point where it's kind of large, um, you may not have as much direct access to every pastor, but that's not because the past is running from you.

It's just the things going a little big. It happens. But I think the danger is when you kind of have a pastor for this and a pastor for this and a pastor for this, you start creating a wall of insulation between you and the people you're called to serve in a way that I don't always think is the most helpful.

And again, I'm not saying that there isn't a place for some of those titles. Absolutely.

There is.

I just think we have to be very careful that again, one of two things that, or you don't end up just having a pastor for everything and you start cheapening the office.

Oh yeah.

So a pastor for skateboarding might be stretching it just a little bit. Like you might be cheapening the office just a tiny little bit. Um, so yeah, we want to be careful that we're not doing that with what is a very high and lofty office to be sure.

Yeah.

Awesome. And so two, two more things real quick, um, on the nature of Jesus's rule. I wasn't able to get everything on the notes for this one, but can you go over what you meant by, you said something about a direct facets and a delegated authority, right?

Right.

So there's direct. So when we talk about Jesus rule, two sides to it, there's a direct side and a delegated side. Directly speaking, Jesus knows the church. He's intimately acquainted with all the, all of the churches that make up the church.

Yeah.

And I went to revelation chapter one, where we have this language of Jesus walking in the midst of the lamp stands. And then that spelled out in chapters two and three, where Jesus intimately knows all seven churches.

He knows what's good, what's bad and what's downright ugly and knows how to deal with that. So it's not that Jesus kind of establishes the church through his death. And then just guys, I'm out. I'll see you on the other side.

Yeah.

Peace out. I'll see you when I come back. No, he's intimately involved. So that's the direct side, but there's also authority in scripture, which he clearly delegates. And that delegated authority is expressed in the church.

I would argue through the ministry of godly men who are called elders, pastors, and overseers. So it's not a separate kind of authority. It's another aspect of Jesus's authority. If that makes sense.

Yeah, that yeah, it does. I really appreciate that. Um, so the next point that you had was elders lead the church. And before we get to that, man, can you just tell us like, how have you been blessed by your previous pastors, you know, and those who have been close to you in that role?

Wow.

I have to go back to that verse in Hebrews 13, seven, where he says, remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you as you observe the outcome of their, of their lives. Uh, yeah. As you observe the outcome of their faith, imitate their lives.

I think for me, that's been the one, well, there's been many blessings I've had because of godly pastors, but that's been probably the two biggest ones to know that you have men who love you. And because they love you, they are laboring in the word and they're laboring in prayer.

Acts chapter six, verse four. And so they are willing to speak God's word to you, whether that's in the pulpit or just one-on-one. I think some of the most formative moments for me have been, you know, my pastor, the man I still consider my pastor in a lot of ways.

Uh, Dr. Tom Drion over at Grace Life London, you know, spent lots of time just talking one-on-one with him and talking about very personal issues that I haven't spoken to tons of people since about.

And him just being able to, at times forcefully and at times patiently, again, you need to know which is which. First Thessalonians five, you know, you admonish the idol. You're my moment. I'm going to butcher that verse.

Let me quote it right. First Thessalonians 512. Uh, my pastor actually used to quote this one very often. Um, or 514, excuse me, 514. And we urge you brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the faint-hearted, help the weak, be patient with all men.

So some people are going to be in the, um, I love the way the NSB translates this, the unruly. Sometimes they shouldn't say idol, but that kind of gets the point across is the idea of they're out of order.

Then some people you need to, they're faint-hearted. Literally they're small sold and you need to encourage those ones. Then you've got some who are just weak and they need help. They don't have strength.

And you've got to be patient with all three groups. And, you know, I can say, honestly, uh, different points in my own spiritual life. I've been in all three of those categories. You know, um, I don't claim to be an angel.

I've had my moments where, you know, leaders have had to pull me up and say, yo, bro, you had no business saying that, or you had no business doing that.

Come on.

But other times where it's just like, okay, he's discouraged. He just needs like an arm around it. And other times it's okay. You just lack strength. I need to help you. And, you know, having godly men who understand, who one, understand that difference.

They, they understand the importance of, I got to be careful here and see which one is which. And they're not going to be perfect at it, but they at least endeavor to know which is which and how to respond appropriately.

Um, you need that. It's invaluable. And, you know, before I even get to the teaching aspect, which I'll get to in a moment, just having that example of patient men who loved me and invested in me and cared for me, invaluable.

And it shaped my world as to what a godly leader is. And honestly, it made it such that when I came out from under their oversight and moved over here, I had a very high bar for what a pastor was. Because my pastors weren't perfect, but they were darned good men.

Like they were some of the godliest men I know. And to this day, I would go to their, I would go to bat for them without thinking twice. Because they were such godly men who demonstrated a depth of godliness that I think is to this day formative in my own life.

So there was that. And then of course there was their ministry of God's word. Um, I saw men who took the Bible seriously.

Yeah.

And as a young guy who was wrestling with the desire to minister, having them as examples was invaluable. Knowing that, okay, my pastors are putting in the hours, early mornings and late nights to be in God's word so that when they step into that pulpit on Sunday afternoon, as our church met Sunday afternoon, they had something to say.

And it wasn't, they had something to, it was that they had been in God's word and they had a message that had come from prayer and study and meditation that spoke to us as a body. And that, again, influenced my own view of preaching.

That's why I, you know, I try my best to take my own preaching so seriously. Because I saw them do it. And I saw the fruit of what happened when they did it. You know, I genuinely believe that the Lord blesses when we, you know, when we say, okay, we're going to invest and we're going to take seriously the ministry of his word and seeing it in those men left the impact on me was like, I'm sorry, I'm never going to take the preaching of God's word.

Not seriously. I mean, I won't get into all of it now, but my wife and I left the church in this valley for that reason. And part of it was like, sorry, I know what I came from and I know the standard that I saw and I'm not going to compromise that.

Yeah.

Like, no, because again, I had these godly mentors and leaders and examples that I could look to and say, you know what they did? I want to do that. And I think that's really when, you know, you have a good pastor.

When you look at that and say, you know, once in all, what he does in ministry is what I want to be. I mean, that's what Paul could say to Timothy. That's what Paul can say to him. Imitate me as I imitate Christ.

Yeah.

And he said, he could say of Timothy, but you followed 2 Timothy 3 .10. You followed my example, my pattern of life, my sufferings. You've seen it. Like the things that 1 Timothy 2 .2, the things that you have seen and heard from me.

Like he could say Timothy had seen those things because Timothy had seen those things.

Yeah.

And so, you know, that's how I, you know, for me, that's the value of faithful elders, pastors, overseers. If they do their work well, you grow as a result. And if you want to go into ministry, you have models that you can look at and say, I want to be like those men.

And, you know, for me, like that's just invaluable. Invaluable.

Yeah.

Praise the Lord. Oh man, that's so awesome. That's why we should always, always pray for our pastors, teachers, elders, those who labor in the word. And I love looking at the broad picture of it all, because what it is, it's discipleship and replicating the work that's been done well in your life, you know.

So it's something to look forward to as, you know, the Lord raises up leaders in our body and in the churches around here too. So something to be praying about. Um, so yeah, elders lead the church. Um, and so one question I have real quick, um, is, you know what, I guess in a general sense, from your perspective, what are the expectations, you know, that people have of pastor and elders?

So this is where we get into a subject that I have many thoughts on, some of which are not entirely popular. Um, but since this is our church's podcast, I can say these things because it's our church's podcast.

I think we have to separate biblical expectations from cultural expectations. In this regard, I'm going to quote from a very helpful book actually called The Disciple-Making Pastor by Bill Hall. I'm going to read something.

And Eddie, you tell me if this sounds like the expectations for pastors you've heard in times past. So one moment.

Okay, there we go.

So, uh, in this book, this is chapter two, The Role of a Disciple-Making Pastor. Bill Hall says the following about what he calls the generic pastor. He says by generic, I mean, general, non-specific or plain, not plain in style or look, but rather general and plain in purpose and goal.

The generic pastor is in many ways, the exact opposite of the disciple-making pastor. The following are some of the marks of the generic pastor. So this is what he says. Now, it'd be interesting. Some of these, I'll be curious to see if you agree or disagree, because I'm not sure.

Well, let me know. Let me just read it and then we'll talk about it.

Okay.

Sounds good.

So he says, number one, he considers himself the servants of the people. Therefore he stands by them and says, I am here to serve you. I believe this is a big mistake because a pastor serves Christ, not people.

People taken in isolation are not worth serving. God alone is worth my worship and my service. When the pastor serves people, he serves their interests. When he serves Christ, he doesn't serve their interests, but rather their best interests.

Only when we serve Christ, can we best serve, can we serve, excuse me, the best interests of people. Otherwise we will burn out from the frustration of trying to please their whims and desires. People's interests are often in direct conflict with God's desire for them.

A common example is the evangelical proclivity to withdraw from unbelievers and insulate themselves from the ones God calls them to reach. This is usually done under the guise of good Christian educational programming.

The servant of Christ is dedicated to making people do what they don't want to do so that they can become what they have always wanted to be. Otherwise, the pastor creates weak Christians. Instead of making disciples, the pastor produces dependent parasitic believers.

Oh, that was point number one, by the way. Oh, wow. Um, number two. He lets the church set the agenda under the guise of being sensitive to their needs. Somewhere, someone taught pastors to enter an existing church with no plan.

Just spend the first year getting to know people, finding out what they are interested in doing, and then design a plan around their dreams. While this might work 10 of the time, the other 90%, it's a disaster.

The pastoral body count is extremely high in this area. The generic pastor has fallen under the dictatorship of the disobedient. A church can become a crazy place where immature, unskilled believers set the agenda for a highly motivated pastor.

It can be a place where men and women who don't walk with God tell a pastor how he should spend his time. Examples of this approach working do exist, but they are outnumbered many times by the brokenhearted pastors who ran into a carnal bustle called a local church.

Number three. He accepts the church's role expectations concerning his time and activities. Churches should write a job description explaining what they want in a pastor. Yes, there are non-negotiables that the pastor must expect.

If a church is inflexible with its demands and does not fit the potential pastor, he should not accept a call. Too often, the generic pastor does not have a specific understanding of himself and his role.

As a sad result, he finds himself in an ecclesiological straitjacket. He finds himself running from committee meetings to hospital rooms to rewiring the sound system. He finds time for almost everything except what God has called him to do.

Number four. I'll be done with this. His ministry to strategy is circumstantial. It reacts to church conditions. He responds to the environment rather than creating it. He does not possess the philosophical gridwork needed to filter and focus.

He can't filter up the demand on his time, energies and directions in order to focus on reaching the commanded objective for the church. He finds himself in the woods so preoccupied with individual trees that he loses his way.

Once he has lost the objective, the details of ministry will begin to erode both positive outlook and productivity.

So, when you stopped, the words that I would use to describe that is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but pragmatic, self-seeking, and sort of man-pleasing methods, and because there's a failure to have distinctions.

Especially in the first one, you said really well out of the book that the pastor exists to please, or is it please people's?

To please people instead of pleasing Christ, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and it's kind of funny because on the surface, it's like, oh yeah, we're here to love and serve one another. But the pastor has this very specific job, and if he loses that, he's doing the wrong thing.

And so, I would use those words kind of just to describe what I think about the whole thing.

So, give me those three words again you used.

You said pragmatic, self-seeking, and I forgot the third one, but I would say.

You said man-centered, I think it was. It was the second one I wasn't sure about.

Yeah.

Okay, so I'll say I agree with two out of three of those.

Okay.

I do think it's pragmatic. And by the way, we need to define what pragmatism is for the benefit of those watching. Pragmatism is a philosophy that says that the means that you use to achieve a particular goal are justified if you meet the goal.

So, to kind of boil that down to the way that we often say in our popular culture, the ends justify the means. As long as you're trying to get to a particular end, how you get there is justified by the end.