The Cutting Room Floor Episode 4: "How Does Jesus Rule the Church?"

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are listening to this. I am Kofi Adoboian and I'm here once again with my brother

Eddie Casillas for episode four of the Cutting Room Floor podcast. Eddie, how are you doing today?

So far, so good, man. We're excited to talk about the sermon and any questions you might have not raised.

So let's do it. All right. Well, for those of you who maybe are joining us for the first time, the

Cutting Room Floor is a ministry of Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Medford, Oregon, and really is just an opportunity for me to address some of the issues that I maybe didn't get to touch on in the sermon, as well as hit some other areas that might be helpful.

So that's why we call this the Cutting Room Floor. And with that, I will hand over to Eddie, who's going to kind of chair the discussion.

So thanks, Kofi. So one of the first things I want to address, kind of with the outline of the sermon is sort of what

I like to call your preliminary remarks and statements that you say. And so I appreciate your sermon titles.

How does Jesus lead the church? And one of the first things you mentioned that I want you to go over again, if you can, and if you're if you're able to maybe name some names.

But what was the anti -institution weird blog post?

Oh, heavens. So that was from a website called I think I mentioned in the sermon website called

Wicked Shepherds. Right, right. Yeah. There's one name attached to it,

Ken Cascio, who I think is the primary writer. It says he's the webmaster. So he might just be the guy who puts it all up.

But as far as I can tell, he might be the primary writer who that's the person I quoted in the sermon on Sunday.

And for those who haven't listened to it, I quoted a lengthy section from a blog post from a website called

Wicked Shepherds, where the guy was basically going off on how much he dislikes pastors because pastors basically exist to control everybody and take their money.

And he doesn't need that accountability. After all, he's a Christian. So Christ is his accountability. So that was a shortened summary of what he had to say.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not getting so surprised about the different like attitudes that are out there about the church, especially when one comes out in an article like that.

But I mean, what I guess, can you expand a little more on why that attitude has come around?

You know, I like to think that I've had a healthy understanding just in general life about leadership and authority.

It's like when you go to work, those are there. Why would it be any different in the church? You know, well,

I think for a start, most people hate their bosses. They just haven't got the courage to admit it because they'll get fired. That's the first thing

I think in general, human beings ever since the fall don't like authority. Now, there may be different ebbs and flows in that in society as the case may be, but I think in general, going back to the fall and the rejection of God's authority, we struggle with concepts of authority in general.

And so I think there's a little bit of that going on. I think also as, you know, the flow of history has happened and we've had movements like the enlightenment and then the response to the enlightenment, the romantic movement that came along, a lot more emphasis has been placed in lots of people's mind, especially even in the church on what they would call the internal and subjective part of the

Christian. So for most people, the way it manifests itself is we'll say

I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I mean, that's a good thing. We should all have a personal relationship with Jesus.

But the way that is often said is often said in the kind of way that basically says, as long as I have that, nothing else matters.

So I don't need the church and I definitely don't need some guy who says he or behaves like he knows more than me, telling me how to conduct my personal relationship with Jesus.

As long as I'm happy, that's all that matters. Well, the reality is the

New Testament doesn't talk that way. The New Testament is a very church centered book, and it does speak to the presence of leadership in the church, even from the church's earliest days.

Unfortunately, because of high biblical literacy coupled with a culture that already tells us what happens internally is all that matters.

So forget this whole talk about relationship with Jesus. As long as you're happy, that's the main thing. You kind of combine all of those forces together and that's how you end up with something akin to what

I read on Sunday. Just this palpable disdain for human leadership.

As long as I have a relationship with Jesus and a relationship with God, I don't need everything else. Institutions are bad.

People are bad. Everything is bad except me and Jesus. Yeah, yeah, that that attitude is so interesting and just weird that, yeah, we apply that to work and not always to the church.

But let's move forward. You know, how does Jesus lead the church? It's like one of your first points in your sermon, you know, after you gave us three truths about Jesus and the way he leads the church.

And so in that point, you mentioned about four things. You said that his rule is lawful, unquestionable, comprehensible, and that he's a loving ruler.

Can you expand a little more on the comprehensive section right there that you quoted or that you wrote?

So there is nothing in the church that is left to chance or left to our ingenuity. That's what

I mean when I say it's comprehensive. It covers everything. Hmm. So it covers what we are allowed to do and not do in church, covers how we deal with sin in the church.

It covers how we appoint leaders in the church, both at the elder level and at the deacon level. It's a bit, if we understand it properly, will cover how we view ministry.

So everything that the church needs to glorify God comes under the rule of Jesus.

And the rule of Jesus, I would argue, is expressed and mediated through the scriptures as we have them.

And the scriptures, we would argue, are comprehensive. They deal with every issue that we could possibly need to deal with. If the scriptures don't address it, either it's not that important or we need to ask ourselves, why are we addressing it?

But when we say that Jesus's rule is comprehensive, it covers everything right down from the foundation of the church to the ultimate goal and purpose of the church.

Everything is already covered by Jesus in his word. Hmm. I can already hear some super anti -institutional and authoritarian people say, well, what do you mean about unquestionable?

Like we can't, we can't question. How would you respond to people asking that question? Well, again, notice we didn't say humans cannot be questioned.

We said Jesus's rule cannot be questioned. So let's make our distinctions a little clear.

I would say to that person, we're not saying that human beings are infallible and can never be asked anything.

No, no, no, no, no. Human beings are actually fallible and you probably should ask them some questions every now and again.

What we're talking about, though, is not so much the the human leadership of the church when we say that Jesus's rule is unquestioned.

We mean Jesus's rule itself. He, as the head of the church, he is unquestionable.

We can't go to Jesus and say, Jesus, I'd like to talk to the complaint departments. Heaven has no complaints department. The heavens rule is final.

And unlike a football game or unlike a sports game, like you can't appeal the decision once he says, this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing.

So actually, again, this is where understanding what we're talking about becomes very important.

We are not saying that human beings are unquestionable. We're saying

Jesus is unquestionable. Yeah. And that's actually a really healthy thing for the

Christian to note, you know, who maybe has been influenced by anti -authoritarian figures, you know, that it's about the leaders and if they're qualified and if they're glorifying the

Lord, um, and everything they do and they say in the practice. Hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, if at the end of the day, what we're saying is when we say, as we'll talk about a little bit, you know, the role of elders and submitting to them, well, ultimately saying that we are submitting to godly authority as it reflects the ultimate authority.

So it's not that, okay. Just because somebody has a title or an office that we automatically just sit there and say, well, um, they spoke.

It is what it is. And I don't get to question that. No, actually you do get to ask some questions.

The key thing is, am I asking the right questions? And am I asking the right questions for the right reasons?

That's the real heart of the issue. Yeah, that's a big deal.

Um, so Jesus rules the church. Um, Kofi, why doesn't the church rule the church?

Have you ever known sheep to not need a little shepherd? The reason

Jesus rules the church is because every structured, the only thing that doesn't have hierarchy in it is the triune

God, there's no hierarchy in the Trinity everywhere else. God has created a world where there is hierarchy and structure.

So I don't like, as you may have guessed by my answer right there, I don't hold to the view that Jesus is eternally subordinate to the son, to the father.

Excuse me. Um, I don't quite hold that view. Um, but everywhere else,

God creates a world in which things submit. That's just the order of things. So, um, that's one thing.

Second thing I'd also know more importantly from scripture is that the scripture describes Jesus, excuse me, the church as Jesus's purchase, that he died for the church, he paid for the church with his own blood.

So in, let's look at some scripture real quick, grab my Bible over here. So in Acts chapter 20, uh,

Acts 20, which funny enough is a passage address to elders, uh, in Acts chapter 20, when

I'm reading from verse 28 and for tonight, I just grabbed my, I think it's an NAS. I have in front of me. Yes.

NAS. It says be on your God. This is Paul speaking to the

Ephesian elders. It says, be on God for yourselves and for all the flock over which the

Holy spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God. By the way, I think it's interesting.

Act 20 is one place where you have elder shepherd and overseer all used at once.

So again, we'll talk about that later on in the sermon. I'm sure. But again, all three titles used interchangeably here over which the

Holy spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

The church doesn't get to rule the church because the church doesn't own the church. Jesus is

Lord of the church because he died for the church. That's why Paul can also say,

I think I quoted this on Sunday, uh, Ephesians chapter five, so Ephesians five and verse just saw this verse,

Ephesians five, 22 and 23. So wives be subject to your own husbands as to the

Lord for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body.

So there you've got a clear link between the headship of the church and Christ being the savior of the church.

Well, how did Christ become the savior of the body? He died for the church. So the fact that the church is purchased by Christ means the church can't rule itself.

The church submits gracious to the gracious leadership of the Lord Jesus Christ. So no, the church doesn't run itself, um, any more than any human runs it.

No, the church is run ultimately by Jesus. Absolutely.

So, you know, the, the church is so important, but what everything you just said, doesn't that sort of separate us from other traditions that are out there?

It does for some. So, you know, we're not Roman Catholics. We don't believe that the Pope is the visible head of the church or the head of the visible church,

I should say. We are not, uh, Anglicans. So we don't believe that the King of England or the

Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the church or the prelates over the church. Um, no, that, that would separate us from some traditions.

We're not obviously Greek Orthodox. You also have an Episcopal form of church government. Um, we don't hold to those either.

You know, we would say that Christ is the head of the church, you know, as some of my pastor friends say, and rightly so,

Jesus is the senior pastor of every church. He's the chief shepherd, not any human being.

Absolutely. And that's a big, big deal. Like, especially some of the terms you use, like senior pastor, uh, you know,

I've heard terms like, uh, Christ is the chief shepherd and we're under shepherds.

Um, and so can you talk a little bit about why some of these terms are unhelpful and why some of them are actually helpful?

Sure. So I think on an administrative level, it helps to, if you have, okay.

Certain people who exercise elder leadership, for instance, in particular areas, then yeah, you probably want to have those clearly spelled out.

So this is the pastor who has particular oversight over this area of the work. Cause again, no one person should have, um, ultimate control over every aspect of the work.

You know, that's why we believe in a, we didn't even get to touch this on Sunday. Um, you know, this is why we believe in a plurality of elders as the biblical norm.

And maybe we can talk about that as we go. Um, one of the reasons we believe in a plurality of elders is it's a dish, a fair distribution of labor.

You're going to have some elders who are gifted in some areas and not in others. Well, that can be their primary area.

And in that case, yeah. If we say, okay, we have a pastor for discipleship or a pastor for member care or past that,

I don't personally think that's wrong. I know there are some people who do. I don't think that's wrong. I think it's when it becomes somewhat hierarchical rather than a first among equals kind of thing.

So I don't think it's wrong to have one person who is the lead pastor, but equal to the other elders.

Yeah. You know, that's not wrong, but when it becomes a sort of hierarchy, again, that's why I don't like the language of senior pastor kind of implies this is the big boss then everyone else is kind of junior.

Well, not really. Um, if the elders are equal to an authority, then that's not really the case.

Right. Um, so again, I think some of those titles prove to be unhelpful. If we kind of load them with,

I don't know, we'll definitely talk about this later, you know, unbiblical expectations that don't match up to the biblical reality.

Yeah. Yeah. So here's another, okay.

So you're going to have to help me out with this because I've heard this, you know, in our circles before, and I don't know exactly how

I feel about it. And it has to do with pastors and their ministries. Um, the two part question, um, to what extent do we use a pastor for this particular thing, how far do we go that that's too far?

And then also, um, does every person have, uh, a ministry, like a pastoral ministry, actually, it's more of the same question, does that make sense?

So when you say this particular thing, you might want to spell that out for me some more. So like, um, I did skateboard ministry for a long time, right.

Would I be, um, uh, pastoral skateboarder or something like that?

I'll say, I'll say, I shouldn't laugh. But what's the new one?

Um, I'm sure somebody's done that out there, you know? I guess.

Yeah, I, I think, yeah, I don't think you make everything have a title.

Um, that can get very ridiculous very quickly. Um, this is our chief toilet bowl scrubber, like relax.

Um, we don't need a title. Um, again, as much as it helps administratively, that's one thing.

I don't think we need to be just multiplying titles to multiply titles. Um, I honestly think that can just be more confusing than it is helpful.

Um, because what ends up happening is you have some people for whom, um, you know, those titles end up being a barrier, not so much on their part, as much as the people who come to them, you know, is one of the reasons that some of us, why

I don't like being called pastor a lot. Um, and one of them, there are a few, but one of them is in lots of people's mind, they treat a pastor kind of like Peter, you know, that story where Peter, I think he meets

Jesus for the first time. I think he's in Mark's gospel and he meets Jesus for the first time.

Jesus does this miracle where he's able to catch a ton of fish and Peter's responses, apart from me,

I'm a sinful man. I think there are some people who kind of have that mindset when it comes to a pastor where he's a really holy person and that title just puts a barrier between me and him.

Where I don't see that in the scriptures. Now there may be, okay. If a church grows to a point where it's kind of large, um, you may not have as much direct access to every pastor, but that's not because the pastor is running from you, it's just the thing's going a little big, it happens.

But I think the danger is when you kind of have a pastor for this and a pastor for this and a pastor for this, you start creating a wall of insulation between you and the people you're called to serve in a way that I don't always think is the most helpful.

And again, I'm not saying that there isn't a place for some of those titles. Absolutely. There is. I just think we have to be very careful that again, one of two things that, or you don't end up just having a pastor for everything and you start cheapening the office.

Oh yeah. So a pastor for skateboarding might be stretching it just a little bit.

Like you might be cheapening the office just tiny little bit. Um, so yeah, we want to be careful that we're not doing that with what is a very high and lofty office to be sure.

Yeah. Awesome. Um, and so two, two more things real quick.

Um, on the nature of Jesus's rule, I wasn't able to get everything on the notes for this one, but can you go over what you meant by, you said something about a direct facets and a delegated authority, right?

Right. So there's direct. So when we talk about Jesus's rule, two sides to it, there's a direct side and a delegated side.

Directly speaking, Jesus knows the church. He's intimately acquainted with all the, all of the churches that make up the church.

And I went to revelation chapter one, where we have this language of Jesus walking in the midst of the lamp stands.

And then that spelled out in chapters two and three, where Jesus intimately knows all seven churches, he knows what's good, what's bad and what's downright ugly and knows how to deal with that.

So it's not that Jesus kind of establishes the church through his death and then just guys,

I'm out. I'll see you on the other side. Yeah. I peace out. I'll see you when I come back.

No, he's intimately involved. So that's the direct side, but there's also authority in scripture, which he clearly delegates.

And that delegated authority is expressed in the church. I would argue through the ministry of godly men who are called elders, pastors, and overseers.

So it's not a separate kind of authority. It's another aspect of Jesus's authority, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that, yeah, it does. I really appreciate that. Um, so the next point that you had was elders lead the church.

And before we get to that, man, can you just tell us like, how have you been blessed by your previous pastors, you know, and those who have been close to you in that role?

Wow. Um, I have to go back to that verse in Hebrews 13, seven, um, where he says, remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you, as you observe the outcome of their, of their lives, uh, yeah, as you observe the outcome of their faith, imitate their lives,

I think for me, that's been the one, well, there's been many blessings

I've had because of godly pastors, but that's been a, probably the two biggest ones to know that you have men who love you.

And because they love you, they are laboring in the word and they're laboring in prayer. Acts chapter six, verse four.

And so they are willing to speak God's word to you, whether that's in the pulpit or just one -on -one.

I think some of the most formative moments for me have been, you know, my pastor, the man

I still consider my pastor in a lot of ways, uh, Dr. Tom Drion over at Grace Life London. You know, spent lots of time just talking one -on -one with him and talking about very personal issues that I haven't spoken to tons of people since about, and him just being able to, at times forcefully, and at times patiently, again, you need to know which is which first Thessalonians five, you know, you admonish the idol, your one moment.

I'm going to butcher that verse. Let me quote it right. First Thessalonians five, 12. Uh, my pastor actually used to quote this one very often.

Um, but five, 14, excuse me, five, 14. And we urge you brethren admonish the unruly, encourage the faint -hearted help the weak, be patient with the woman.

So some people are going to be in the on, I love the way the NSP translates this, the unruly.

Sometimes they didn't say idol, but that kind of gets the point across is the idea of they're out of order.

Then some people you need to, they're faint hearted. Literally they're small sold and you need to encourage those ones.

Then you've got some who are just weak and they need help. They don't have strength and you've got to be patient with all three groups.

And you know, I can say honestly, uh, different points in my own spiritual life, I've been in all three of those categories, you know, um,

I don't claim to be an angel. I've had my moments where, you know, leaders have had to pull me up and say, yo, brother, you had no business saying that, or you had no business doing that.

Come on. And other times where it's just like, okay, he's discouraged. He just needs like an arm around it.

And other times it's okay. You just lack strength. I need to help you. And you know, having godly men who understand, who one understand that difference.

They, they understand the importance of, I got to be careful here and see which one is which, and they're not going to be perfect at it, but they at least endeavor to know which is which and how to respond appropriately.

Um, you need that it's invaluable. And, you know, before I even get to the teaching aspect, which

I'll get to in a moment, just having that example of patient men who loved me and invested in me and cared for me invaluable.

And it shaped my world as to what a godly leader is. And honestly made it such that when

I came out from under their oversight and moved over here, I had a very high bar for what a pastor was because my partners weren't perfect, but they were darned good men.

Like they were some of the godliest men I know. And to this day,

I would go to there. I would go to bat for them without thinking twice because they were such godly who demonstrated a depth of godliness that I think is to this day formative in my own life.

So there was that. And then of course there was that ministry of God's word. Um, I saw men who took the

Bible seriously. And as a young guy who was wrestling with the desire to minister, having them as examples was invaluable.

No, knowing that, okay, my pastors are putting in the hours, early mornings and late nights to be in God's word so that when they step into that pulpit on Sunday afternoon, as our church met, um,

Sunday afternoon, they had something to say. And it wasn't, they had something to eat. Was that they had been in God's word and they had a message that had come from prayer and study and meditation that spoke to us as a body.

And that again, influenced my own view of preaching. That's why I, you know, I try my best to take my own preaching so seriously because I saw them do it and I saw the fruit of what happened when they did it.

You know, I genuinely believe that the Lord blesses when we, you know, when we say, okay, we're going to invest and we're going to take seriously the ministry of his word and seeing it in those men left the impact on me where I was like,

I'm sorry, I'm never going to take the preaching of God's word. Not seriously.

I mean, I won't get into all of it now, but my wife and I left the church in this valley for that reason.

And part of it was like, sorry, I know what I came from and I know the standard that I saw and I'm not going to compromise that like, no, because again,

I had these godly mentors and leaders and examples that I could look to and say, you know what they did?

I want to do that. And I think that's really, when you know, you have a good pastor. When you look at that and say, you know, what's an old, what he does in ministry is what

I want to be. I mean, that's what Paul could say to Timothy. That's why Paul can say to him, imitate me as I imitate

Christ. Yeah. And he said, he could say of Timothy, but you followed for a second

Timothy three, 10, you followed my example, my pattern of life, my sufferings, you've seen it like the things that first Timothy two, two, the things that you have seen and heard from me, like he could say

Timothy had seen those things because Timothy had seen those things. And so, you know, that's how

I, you know, for me, that's the value of faithful elders, pastors, overseers.

If they do their work well, you grow as a result. And if you want to go into ministry, you have models that you can look at and say,

I want to be like those men. And you know, for me, like that's just invaluable, invaluable.

Yeah. Praise the Lord. Oh man, that's so awesome. That's how we should always, always pray for our pastors, teachers, elders, those who labor in the word.

And I love looking at the broad picture of it all because what it is, it's discipleship and replicating the work that's been done well in your life, you know, but it's something to look forward to as, you know, the

Lord raises up leaders in our body and in the churches around here too. So something to be praying about.

So yeah, elders lead the church. And so one question

I have real quick is, you know, what, I guess in a general sense, from your perspective, what are the expectations, you know, that people have with pastor and elders?

So this is where we get into a subject that I have many thoughts on some of which are not entirely popular.

Um, but since this is our churches podcast, I can say these things because it's our churches podcast.

Um, I think we have to separate biblical expectations from cultural expectations.

Um, in this regard, I'm going to quote from a very helpful book actually called the disciple making pastor by Bill Hall.

I'm going to read something. And Eddie, you tell me if this sounds like the expectations for pastors you've heard in times past.

So one moment. Okay. There we go.

So, uh, in this book, this is chapter two, the role of a disciple making pastor,

Bill Hall says the following about what he calls the generic pastor. He says by generic,

I mean, general, non -specific or plain, not plain in style or look, but rather general in plain and general and plain in purpose and goal.

The generic pastor is in many ways, the exact opposite of the disciple making Boston, the following are some of the marks of the generic pastor.

So this is what he says. Now it'd be interesting. Some of these

I'll be curious to see if you agree or disagree, but I'm not sure. Well, let me know. Let me just read it and then we'll talk about it.

Okay. Sounds good. So he says, number one, he considers himself the servants of the people.

Therefore he stands by them and says, I am here to serve you. I believe this is a big mistake because a pastor serves

Christ, not people. People taken in isolation are not worth serving. God alone is worth my worship and my service.

When the pastor serves people, he serves their interests. When he serves Christ, he doesn't serve their interests, but rather their best interests.

Only when we serve Christ, can we best serve, can we serve, excuse me, the best interest of people.

Otherwise we will burn out from the frustration of trying to please their whims and desires.

People's interests are often in direct conflict with God's desire for them.

A common, a common example is the evangelical proclivity to withdraw from unbelievers and insulate themselves from the ones

God calls them to reach. This is usually done under the guise of good Christian educational programming.

The servant of Christ is dedicated to making people do what they don't want to do so that they can become what they have always wanted to be.

Otherwise the pastor creates weak Christians. Instead of making disciples, the pastor produces dependent parasitic believers.

Oh, that was point number one, by the way. Oh, wow. Um, number two, he lets the church set the agenda under the guise of being sensitive to their needs.

Somewhere, someone taught pastors to enter an existing church with no plan. Just spend the first year getting to know people, finding out what they are interested in doing, and then design a plan around their dreams.

While this might work 10 % of the time, the other 90%, it's a disaster. The pastoral body count is extremely high in this area.

The generic pastor has fallen under the dictatorship of the disobedient. A church can become a crazy place where immature, unskilled believers sets the agenda for a highly motivated pastor.

It can be a place where men and women who don't walk with God, tell a pastor how he should spend his time.

Examples of this approach working do exist, but they are outnumbered many times by the broken hearted pastors who ran into a carnal bustle called a local church.

Number three, he accepts the church's role expectations concerning his time and activities.

Churches should write a job description explaining what they want in a pastor. Yes, there are non -negotiables that a pastor must expect.

If a church is inflexible with its demands and does not fit the potential pastor, he should not accept a call.

Too often, the generic pastor does not have a specific understanding of himself and his role. As a sad result, he finds himself running from committee, excuse me, finds himself in an ecclesiological straitjacket.

He finds himself running from committee meetings to hospital rooms, to rewiring the sound system. He finds time for almost everything except what

God has called him to do. Number four, I'll be done with this.

His ministry strategy is circumstantial. It reacts to church conditions. He responds to the environment rather than creating it.

He does not possess the philosophical grid work needed to filter and focus. He can't filter out the demands on his time, energies, and directions in order to focus on reaching the commanded objective for the church, he finds himself in the woods, so preoccupied with individual trees that he loses his way.

Once he has lost the objective, the details of ministry will begin to erode both positive outlook and productivity.

That's from Bill Halls, the disciple making pastor pages 81 or 80, really through to 82.

Wow. Your initial thoughts, Eddie, before we go on, oh man. Yeah, I think if I could describe everything that I just heard you talk about, um, and it's just a few words when you started to, when you stopped the words that I would use to describe that is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but pragmatic, self -seeking, um, and sort of man pleasing methods.

And, and, and because there's a failure to have distinctions, um, especially in the first one, you, you said really well out of the book that the pastor exists to please, or is it please people's, um, to please people instead of pleasing

Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of funny because on the surface it's like, oh yeah, we're here to, we're here to love and serve one another, but the pastor has a very specific job and if he loses that, he's doing the wrong thing.

And so I would use those words kind of just to describe, I think about the whole thing. So give me those three words again, you used, you said pragmatic, self -seeking, um, and I forgot the third one, but I would say you said man -centered.

I think it was the second one I wasn't sure about. Yeah. Okay. So I'll, I'll say I agree with two out of three of those.

Okay. I do think it's pragmatic and by the way, we need to define what pragmatism is for the benefit of those watching.

Pragmatism is a philosophy that says that the, the means that you use to achieve a particular goal are justified if you meet the goal.

So to kind of boil that down to the way that we often say in our popular culture, the ends justify the means, as long as you're trying to get to a particular end, how you get there is justified by the end.

So in that sense, I would agree pragmatism. Self -seeking is one where I might say for some, maybe

I think for some, that might be the case for others. I think it's just a case.

They don't know any better. Yeah. This is what I want to get. And this is actually, let me hit the third one and I'll get to that.

Um, man -centered a hundred percent. It's giving people what they want. Yeah. And it's also, there's an assumption that people know what they want.

Oh, let me put this way. People know what they want, but they don't always know what they need.

Yeah. So let me, let me be clear. Cause lots of us know what we want.

We have very clear expectations about what we want, but that doesn't always translate to knowing what you need.

Cause sometimes what you want and what you need are two different things. I might want to lay in bed all day.

And honestly, there are some days I wake up and I'm tired. I just want to be in bed all day. I might want to do that. Do I need to do that?

The answer is no. Not if I want to get everything else. I need to get done. So what you want and what you need aren't always equal.

And sometimes you have to be honest and say, that's a want, not a need. Yeah. Now I think he phrases some of that pretty bluntly and I know why he's doing that.

I've read further on in the book. He's trying to make a point, but I think by and large, if you think about what most people expect from a pastor, that's what they expect.

Yeah. So let's look at those four things again, real quick. I'll make it super quick as we think about expectations versus reality.

So number one, they expect from their pastor to basically serve them.

He is here to meet their, now they will say their needs, but it's not really their needs.

They're there. He's there to meet their wants. So I need you to do this.

I want the church to do this. And most pastors are happy to say, well, yeah, that's what I'll do.

I'm going to say, biblically speaking, that's not a pastor's job. Hmm. Pastor's job is, in the words of second

Timothy chapter two, verse three, he is to please the one who enlisted him. I might serve at a local church, but no local church enlisted me.

Christ is the one who enlists. Yeah. And if Christ is the one who enlists, then

Christ is the one that I am ultimately accountable to. Yeah. Now that doesn't mean that I could do what

I want and run roughshod over his people. Why not? Here's, this is what lots of churches I think miss. If you get a pastor who wants to keep people happy, he'll fail every time.

Get the pastor who wants to keep Christ happy, not even Christ happy. Let me put it that way. Who wants to please and honor

Christ. And in the long run, you may not like some of his individual decisions, but in the long run, he'll do that, which makes you happy because why he's serving the one who called him and if the one who called him blesses the church, then guess what?

You're happy. So the question is, do you want a pastor who does what you tell him to do or a pastor who does what

Christ told him to do so that you can be blessed because of his obedience, I think it was, um,

Robert Murray McShane, who said the greatest need of my people is my own personal holiness, that the greatest need of my people is my own personal holiness.

So that on that first one, that's where I go. Secondly, let's see the church set the agenda.

This one is where I'd agree with you. Practices and starts to win out and man -centeredness because you go to some churches,

I, I, again, I travel a lot. I, I, I get around, I see things and I observe things and I talk to people a bunch about churches and what

I don't think it's wrong for a church to tailor its ministries to the people it has provided we remember what we're supposed to be doing in our ministries.

You go to some churches and you can very clearly tell who runs the church by what ministries happen. They've got a ministry for this thing and this thing and this thing that has no biblical basis whatsoever, like zero, but that's what people want.

It's in the name of community though. You're baiting me.

I'm not even going to rise to that. You know how I feel about that. Um, who said the church's job was to foster community.

I mean, that's one of those, like, I liked it. I say this phrase a lot and people assume I'm being violent when I say it's really not,

I like to say, come outside, like, let's just, let's just have a conversation. Like right now you're kind of huddled in the corner.

No, no, come outside. Hey, let's talk about that because that's an assumption. The assumption is, let me tell you what, let me flesh out your assumption.

I think your assumption is right. That some people will say, let me flesh it out a little more. It fosters community and it's your job to make it happen.

To which I'd like to respond. Um, what are you doing to make that happen? Eddie, you've heard me say this before, even very recently that the energy that it takes to complain, somebody could use to fix the problem they're complaining about.

Complaining isn't wrong, but this is just my philosophy about complaints. Complaints are, I've tried everything and nothing worked.

Now I'm going to complain to someone. I think the first step should be, okay, what can

I do to fix this? Absolutely. And so on that, and so on that front, there are lots of things that become ministries of the church that should never be ministries of the church.

Individual believers or groups of believers should take those things on. This goes back to the message we preached on the purpose of the church.

This is why everything is interconnected. If a pastor has a healthy understanding of what the mission of the church is, that the church exists for, remember what the three purposes were already?

Um, exaltation, uh, evangelizing and edification.

Thank you. If you remember what those three purposes are, they will filter and frame what ministries you're preaching for.

Cause you listen to ask the question, where does this thing you want me to do fit under these three things? That's right.

Yeah, absolutely. Is this edified, right? Is this edifying or does this exalt

Christ or does this help us in our mission of evangelizing the lost? If you can't, I think some pastors are scared to ask that question because if you did, you'd have to cut a ton of ministries out of the church, some of which people really like, but they don't need, so I think that's the second thing.

I think in terms of letting people set the agenda, well, it's not given, it's not even a pastor who sets the agenda.

It's Christ who sets the agenda. We asked the question, how can we best fulfill this agenda in obedience to Christ?

So third, he says he accepts the church's role expectations regarding his time and activities.

Again, if you know what the purpose of the church is, and you know that as a leader or as an elder, my job is to first and foremost, facilitate these purposes.

Now there's a sense in which the pastor, the pastors and elders of a church are the chief disciple makers.

So if there's a cheap disciple, if they're the examples of, like we talked about, elders are those who have spiritual maturity, if they have spiritual maturity, then we ought to know what is the best use of time.

Even if our people don't always agree. Yeah. No, that's not that you don't explain things to people.

It's not that you don't break it down and say, okay, this is why we think this is important.

No, you don't leave people behind. I'm a big believer. I mean, Ed, you've known me coming up on three years now, which is, which is crazy.

But you've heard me say time and again, you have to bring people along. Yes. That you can't just, you know, it's not the leader just sits up on high and says like, you know,

I'm Moses coming down from the mountain and I have the vision. Yeah. That's not how that works.

No, you need to obviously explain to people. This is why we're doing what we're doing. Bring people along.

Yeah. But there's a difference between, okay. Explaining and bringing people along and basically saying, well, you guys tell me what you want and I'll do it.

Those are two very different things. Yeah. And one, again, everything being interconnected.

One is how can I please Christ? And one is how can I please you? Finally, Dr.

Hall says his ministry strategy is circumstantial. It reacts to church conditions.

Boy, have I seen this a lot? Even in help, even in churches that on paper have a great theology and great doctrine,

I'm trying to think, do I really want to go there on this podcast?

You know, it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. Sometimes this might be one of those times.

Like, so there was a point in the life of this church, um, where we were thinking and talking a bunch about doing stuff and nobody could tell you why.

Yeah. And I, at the time approached our leadership and said, guys,

I appreciate we want to do this thing, this thing, and this thing, but we're not really doing a good job of explaining why we want to do this thing, this thing, and this thing.

And it was like, I was speaking a foreign language, which to me, I was like, hold on.

Even our God, have you ever thought about this, Eddie, that our God works according to a plan?

Yeah. Our God has never winged anything. Human beings might wing things and usually it don't work.

You have to be really gifted to be able to wing things and make it work. Like God doesn't wing things.

I think we're supposed to learn from that. Ultimately, you've heard the, uh,

I think it's in Proverbs, you know, where it says to commit your way unto the Lord and he will establish it. Yeah.

Right. I think sometimes we read the second half of that verse without reading the first half, the first half says, commit your way to the

Lord. That implies you have a way to commit in the first place. Yeah. Now at this point,

I'll tell you the objection that I got. Well, this sounds like being seeker sensitive. No, it doesn't.

Although this is going to surprise you. Maybe it will surprise you, Eddie. I happen to think that for all the faults and flaws of the seeker sensitive churches, which are many,

I'm not a fan. I'm not going to lie. I think seeker sensitive churches are, here's my theological term for it.

They're dumb. Like that's just me. I don't see the point. I will give them this.

They are excellent at planning, planning things and having systems for things. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't disagree with that.

Like if you don't plan and have a strategy for where you're going, you're going to.

My mother used to say all the time, shout out to my mom. My mom used to say, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

Yeah. And so like, this is why I've had some people ask me, you know, they've known about our church and what we're about.

And I'm like, man, it seems like you have like a plan for every, or you want a plan for everything. I was like, yep, I do. Recognizing that we live in a fallen world and recognizing that we can't always have everything work out the way we want it to work out and we've made plans and then stuff happened.

I mean, the whole world made plans for 2020 and then COVID happened. Yeah. Like we had plans for 20.

I had plans for 2020 people. I was going to see places. I was going to go conferences.

I was going to go to you before Gareth was born and then COVID happened and that was the end of that. So things happen, but generally speaking, even though things happen,

God has designed the world in such a way as he enables us by his wisdom to make plans, to put things in place.

So at Redeemer, we have a strategy for what we're trying to do. It's expressed on our logo. Every time we want to reach upward, inward, and outward beneath those things, you've got very specific things.

Once or twice a year, we do what we call state of the fellowship meetings. Um, I want to say we've done three so far with that.

I need to start thinking about the next one where we look at those three things, upward, inward, and outward.

And we ask, where are we on those things? You know, I started putting together some notes for that last week.

And honestly, I actually came away from that super encouraged. Because there were lots of things that we had said a few months ago.

Can we want to put in place and we're praying we can make happen and some things that were earlier than that, especially on the discipleship front.

You remember when I did that discipleship vision meeting a few months ago? Um, praise the

Lord. We're actually doing a lot of that way earlier than I thought we would. It's great.

Yeah. So I thank God for that. Awesome. I also recognize that might have not happened, but praise the

Lord it did. And there's still some areas you've got to work on. But at least we know that because we're not trying to make this up as we go along.

We know what God has told us to do. So now we're just asking the question, okay, Lord, what's the best way to do what you told us to do? Yeah. And so I think there has to be a degree of expectation management on the part of God's people to where we realize, okay, a pastor has a very specific job assignment, and for,

I would say it's super specific at chapter six, verse four, but we will give ourselves to prayer and the ministry, literally the service of the word that it doesn't just mean prayer and preaching.

The ministry of the word is actually quite broad covers a number of things, but that's the job.

And now we do that in the context of caring and loving and providing for the sheep that Christ died for.

But that doesn't mean that again, the sheep are the boss.

They are the boss and the pastor. Isn't the boss either number one,

Jesus rules the church. And since Jesus rules the church, we follow his marching orders and we seek to do everything in light of what he said should happen.

And by the way, Jesus told us what to do. He said, go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. So if disciple making is the mission, who am

I to say otherwise? And who are we as churches to say otherwise? Absolutely.

So here's, here's a little question for you. And this might be splitting hairs, but I can hear people maybe asking a question about this.

So we say Jesus leads the church. Well, what about, you know, Paul and the gospels and what do they say?

So how would you just answer that objection? I guess that's a good question.

And it's very easily answered. So Jesus leads the church. Jesus said in John chapters 14, 15, and 16, that the spirit would come and he would lead the apostles into all the truth.

In fact, Jesus says, I believe it's in chapter 16, that there was so much he wanted to teach.

And Jesus says, he says, look, there's so much I want to share and I'm out of time. But he says, but the spirit will come and he will continue the work that I did.

And we know that promise was fulfilled because if you read Acts chapter one, verse one, Luke is very specific.

He says, you know, to Theophilus, remember the letter I wrote? I'm paraphrasing. Remember the letter

I wrote to you last time about all that Jesus began to do and to teach.

Luke says that everything you read in his gospel was all that, all that was just the beginning of Jesus's acts and teaching and you see through the ministry of the apostles, that ministry of work and teaching continues.

So when we say that, yes, Jesus rules the church, that's not divorced from ultimately the teachings of the apostles as we have them contained in this word of God, ultimately this word of God functions.

I wouldn't even say it functions. It is the ministry of the apostles and prophets for God's people today.

So we don't neglect what Paul said or what the gospel writers said or anything. As long as the church seeks to be faithful to God's word, that church, biblically speaking is apostolic.

We talked about this in week one. That's what makes the church apostolic. It's apostolic. If it follows the apostolic pattern laid down in the sacred scripture.

Amen. Well, thank you for that. Um, so let's, let's talk a little bit about, you know, qualifications for elders and pastors and deacons, um, you know, on your points, you define those terms, but, uh,

I guess what, where did, um, Bishop come from?

Okay. So the term Bishop is a rough drag into English of the

Greek word episkopos. Oh, episkopos just is the word for overseer.

Epi means over, um, skopos to skopos to see, or to look, to look over or to see over hence why some translations rightly,

I would argue say overseer. Um, unfortunately the word Bishop made it into our language because of episkopos.

Basically the model of church governments is the church should be led by bishops. And what they meant by bishops was, you know, one, a pastor basically who had ruling authority over other pastors in a region or an area.

So that's what, that's what the word Bishop comes from. So you've read the King James version, which by the way, lots of people don't know, or don't remember about the

King James version that it was designed to essentially undercut the

Bible of the Puritans, which wasn't the King James version, it was actually the Geneva Bible. And so a lot of the language used in the

King James version kind of has a little bit of a bias towards the state church of England.

Oh, interesting. And one of the ways that manifests is this use of the term Bishop. See, but Paul wouldn't have understood by the word

Bishop. What we understand by that today, he would have understood an overseer and he says, well, every elder is an overseer.

So that's where we get that word Bishop, unfortunately. And it can be a little confusing. You know, some people would say, well, every pastor is a

Bishop. Well, they are. But I think just in the modern parlance, that word is so confusing. I think we should just drop it. Um, I mean,

I joke with some of my pastor friends. I called them Bishop, but that's me joking with them by and large.

I think we do well to just drop the title and just stick to, I think what is the New Testament predominant term, which is elder or pastor.

Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, for the elders, you know, and qualifications in regard to, you were one of the, your definition was about spiritual maturity.

Now, um, can that, that can really apply to any sort of like age within reason.

Right. I would agree. Um, but I, I think in most people, my minds, when they think of elders, they think of a, a man who has spent many years in the ministry, you know, and he's older and he knows how to do the thing.

And, um, but is that the case every single time? Well, this is where, again, defining our terms becomes really important because if you say what's elder, according to age, how old is old enough?

Yeah. Before you answer that question, as far as we can tell, our

Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ was in his thirties when he ministered, Jesus was also fully deity and completely perfect in every way.

So let me not run with the argument too quickly. That kind of helps. Oh, did

I lose you for a second? Yeah. For a second. You're back now though. Okay, good. But the reality is

Jesus was by our standards, relatively young. So how far you want to take that?

Yeah. Most of the disciples were probably a little younger than Jesus with Peter, maybe being the one exception.

It might've been a lot younger than Jesus, actually. So again, how far do you take that?

Again, when I see maturity emphasized in the Bible, I don't see an age number. I see a way of life. Yeah. That's what maturity looks like.

That's why Paul can tell Timothy. He was more than likely in his thirties. Don't let anyone look down on your youthfulness.

First Timothy chapter four, verse 12, but be an example to the believers. And he lays out how he should be an example.

So we're not necessarily talking about an age. Now there may be wisdom in saying, if you are younger, okay.

We might want to check that, evaluate that, make sure that, okay. You are actually fit for the office.

But, and I kind of touched on this in a semi -personal way yesterday. I think there's a difference between that and inherent suspicion of someone just because of their age, because let's be honest, there are lots of older men who are very spiritually immature.

Yeah. And there are lots of young men who have a maturity way past eight years.

Oh yeah. That's why I've heard of like pastors being, uh, pastors at like age 22, 23, you know, and, uh,

Am I his local hero Spurgeon? He was 19. Oh, his first part, his first pastor at water beach.

He was 19 years old. Now Francis Spurgeon had a bit of a head start.

Most of us in a lot of areas, but he was 19. So again, it's not that again, not everyone's a

Spurgeon. I'm not saying that's an argument in itself, but what it does mean is we have to rethink the assumption that younger means automatically immature.

It might generally mean that generally, but there's a difference between, okay, generally means immature versus, oh, he's young.

Therefore he must be immature. You see that subtle difference there. One is a statement that says, okay, that might be the case, but we're willing to see if that's not versus this is always the case.

Therefore you need to be a certain age. Like, okay. We want to be careful that we don't create extra biblical requirements or qualifications for eldership that the

Bible itself doesn't make. Yeah. It's just, it definitely a matter of prudence and wisdom.

Um, especially, you know, like the Holy spirit, man, when he saves somebody and there's an actual change, the age isn't necessarily going to matter, but again, you need to exercise wisdom, prudence, counselors, you know, um, biblical counselors, you know, um, like Proverbs kind of says that.

Um, so yeah. Uh, elders, you know, spiritual maturity required for that office.

I appreciate that. Um, let's talk a little bit about, you know, pastoring and shepherding.

I guess, what's the difference between a pastor and an elder? Um, so again, we're talking three different titles for the same role.

You know, we're looking at it from three different vantage points. We call them an elder because he possesses the maturity necessary to serve

God's people. He's a pastor because he shepherds God's people, shepherds feeds and protects.

And he's an overseer because he gives direction and leadership to God's work. So in that sense, every pastor is a shepherd.

Well, let me say it like this. Every pastor ought to be a shepherd. Oh, okay. Cause you get some men who clearly are not shepherds.

They don't care about the flock. It's a paycheck. I come, I preach my sermon same time next week.

Same time next week, we'll do this all over again. Um, that's very different to a guy who says, no,

I love the sheep. I think I can give you an example of what shepherding care looks like from the life.

So in first Thessalonians chapter two, which is a section of scripture I read semi frequently, actually.

So this is, I'm going to read from two to 12, quite a lengthy reading, but give me a moment. He says for you yourselves.

No, and he's writing to the Thessalonians. He says for you yourselves. No brethren that are coming to you was not in vain, but after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we have the boldness in our

God to speak to you, the gospel of God amid much opposition for our exhortation does not come from error or impurity or by way of deceit, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak not as pleasing men, but God, oh, there's that language of pleasing men, not pleasing

God, excuse me, not pleasing men, pleasing men, but God, not as pleasing men, but God who examines our hearts for, we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor the pretext for greed,

God is witness, nor did we seek glory for men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ, we might have asserted our authority, but we proved to be gentle among you as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children, having thus a fond affection for you.

We were pleased to impart to you, not only the gospel of God, but also our own very lives, because you had become very dear to us, for you recall brethren, our labor and hardship, how working nights and days, so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaim to you the gospel of God, you know, you are witnesses and so is

God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behave towards you believers, just as you know, how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father with his own children, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the

God who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. I think that's one of the biggest insights we get into Paul and how

Paul operated his own ministry of shepherding. Did you catch the two parental terms he uses?

In that passage, he says that I believe it's verse seven. He says like a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children.

There was a nurturing and caring aspect to his ministry, but there was also a fatherly side to his ministry, verse 11, just as you know, how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father with his own children.

There is the love and care of the mother and there is the imploring and the encouraging and the challenging of the father, and both of those were true in Paul's ministry to these

Christians. And he could say to them, you know, how I was when I was with you. Yeah. And so in that sense, a true pastor, a true shepherd ministers like this, they are willing to take on anything to see the believers that they are committed to serving grow and be established in their faith.

They're willing to take on the hardships. They're careful to assert their authority only in ways that benefits the other believers.

And so in that sense, while the agenda is not set by the people, because he wants to, like you said, not pleasing man, but God, because he wants to please

God through his ministry, he takes care of God's people.

This is why I said earlier that if you try and keep people happy, you'll fail every time. If you try and please

God, you'll also in the long run, do what is necessary to help people.

And so I think that's the example. That's one example I go to constantly, as I want to be reminded of what does shepherd leadership look like?

What does it look like to be a shepherd leader of God's people? Yeah, and I think to boil all that down, man, it's simply loving

God's people and wanting the best for them. You know that they would grow in Christ and be spiritually healthy and love with them.

I agree. I'll say that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You finish what I was just going to say, like the language that was being used there.

You're right. It's fatherly and it's intimate and it's personal. And so that's part of shepherding.

You know, we're just people who are broken and we need help along the way. That's all

I would say about that. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, again, note that Paul says he did both of those things.

He was, you know, tender and like a mother who's nursing, but he also had that imploring and encouraging, exhorting side as a father.

And sometimes you'll find in ministry, some people want one and not the other. So they love you when you're kind and you ask how everything's going and you should do all that.

I'm not saying you shouldn't. They love all of that. But the minute that go back to first Thessalonians 514 that we read, they're acting like the unruly and you have to kind of admonish them.

Yeah. Oh, they don't like that too much. And it's like there's sometimes where I've encountered this and I've wanted to kind of say to the person, you know,

I need to do both. Right. I can't just be the nice guy all the time.

Sometimes I have to say, you know, brother, that wasn't right. Yeah. You know, and again, I think back to my own pastors who, you know, my pastor

Tom more than once had to kind of pull me aside and say, brother, that wasn't right. And he wasn't saying it because he was angry.

He was saying it because he loved me. He wanted what was best for me. But, you know, if he's going to take on that fatherly role for a moment, he's going to have to step up and say, nah, nah, nah, that ain't it.

Yeah. And you can't say I want one and not want the other. I just want my father to be nice and, you know, never say anything out of line.

And he's always so sweet and he never calls me to account. No, you kind of want both of those things to be true.

Absolutely. So, you know, there was a section where you were talking about clarifying the work of elders. Yes. Including their qualifications.

And one of them was that they presume a desire for the work. Yes. Or can you address the two ditches that should be avoided?

What was that again? So I said the churches can fall into one or two ditches on one side.

They can. And this is a funny thing about that. That wasn't in my notes originally. That's one of those rare moments where I went off manuscript.

Um, but on the one side, you can kind of have the role that says, um, we basically let anybody who wants to do the job, do the job.

That's one ditch. Well, no, that's why there are qualifications in first Timothy three and Titus one.

So that's one ditch. The other ditch is if anybody says they want to do the job suspicious, because why, why do you want to do the job?

Is it because you like being in charge? Are you an autocrat? Like, no,

Paul presumes in first Timothy, chapter three, that if you want, um,

I was speaking to one of my participants recently. He said, well, that's just a baseline requirement that you have to actually desire to do this.

Yeah. And I think for some people, there's this sense that because of how I'm trying not to get you in trouble,

Eddie, but, um, let me put it like this. I do love you,

Eddie. You know that, right? Yeah. So I tried to make sure you don't get in trouble when I say wild things.

I can handle it, but yeah. Let me just say this. I think that sometimes people project their fear and dislike of the ministry onto everybody and assume that, and that unless you dislike the ministry, you don't understand what ministry is.

Oh, there's a difference between, okay. Ministry is hard and I'm, you know, I think we all have a degree of fear about ministry.

No, there's a degree to which, you know, there's a godly fear you should have. It's like the guy who's about to propose to his girlfriend.

Um, I always say not that I give a ton of marriage advice, but I would say if you show me a guy who's not afraid to propose to his girlfriend, show me, you just show me a guy who's not ready to get married.

Hmm. I mean, I can't speak for you, Eddie, when you report to Tiffany, when I proposed to Laura back in 2016,

I was terrified. Like we drove out. I came to visit from London.

We drove out to create a leak. I didn't say a mumbling word the whole time up there. I was like the weightiness of what

I was about to do hit me like a ton of pricks. I was like, no, I'm going to do this, but this is big.

Again, I can't speak for what your engagement to Tiffany was like, but I know for me and for countless men I've spoken to before you propose is a terrifying time, even for the most confident of us.

Yeah. Well, I prefer courage. So sorry. I prefer liquid courage.

No comment on that one. Yes. That's off camera off camera.

That might've worked in my case. Who knows? Um, be that as it may,

I think there's a degree to which ministry is kind of the same. If you understand the weightiness of this thing, it's not like, you know, it's not like, um, a rookie on the sideline who's waiting to come on.

Like, let's go, let's go. There's a little bit of, I don't know about this.

Um, I mean, if I'm honest, like when I first started wrestling with this, like I've often described it as God.

And I had beef for a year and a half. Like I knew that I could, I knew that, okay.

He was opening doors for this and people were being blessed through it. Someone even got converted when

I was in college through my preaching, which was nuts. Like I'm starting to think, is this what

God wants me to do? But I want a career and I want to make money.

I grew up in the hood. I want to leave the hood. Like I want to make money. And so like for about a year and a half,

I was like, I don't know if I want to do this. Plus my dad was a pastor and I saw how people treat him. I was like, I don't know. No way.

You're not getting that off of me. Never. But eventually like, um, one day

I'll tell that full story of basically God made my life miserable and said, Oh, you want to try me? Okay. Um, no, try, try

AOL. Don't try me. Um, that, that didn't go well. And God finally got me to a place where he had my attention.

Now is that everyone's experience? No, but I knew this once he's, once I, it was clear that, okay,

God, this is what you want me to do. I'm going to be patient and trust you to open the doors for that.

Like, you know, once that experience happened, yeah. There was always a sense of the weightiness of this.

It's like, Ooh, this is not a small thing. Like to stand it. Someone asked me if I get nervous when

I preach every Sunday, like every single Sunday. And I've been doing this a while, but I get nervous.

Not because, Oh, I'm going to forget what I have to say. I preach my full manuscript. Even if I forget, I can't forget.

That's not my problem. It's the weightiness of what I'm about to do. Yeah. And so like, yo, there's a sense in which, yes, we should all have that, but that shouldn't mean then if somebody says

I'm willing to push through that, because this is what I believe God would have me to do. The other ditch says that's suspicious.

We can't trust that. We have to smother that out. And it's like, well, no, actually, maybe what the church should do is,

Hey, praise the Lord. Now let's examine that and see if there's something to it.

Because I mean, because you want to do, it doesn't mean you should. Right. I would love to drive an 18 wheeler.

I probably shouldn't. Oh, I'm not that good. I would love to play in the

NFL game. I probably shouldn't. I'll get my neck snapped into. Those are things I'd like to do. It doesn't mean

I should. But the way in which you find out in most cases is you let the person try.

And we see, is there a gifting here? Is there an ability here? And if there is praise the

Lord, and if there isn't, it is what it is. We tried. It's OK. Yeah, it's

OK. And it really is. Yeah. And so those are the two ditches on either side. Either anybody who wants to do it can do it.

And we forget the biblical qualifications or we start to add to the biblical qualifications saying,

OK, whether they did it, if they desire it. No, no, no. You must not desire it. Well, OK, that's adding to God's word just as much as one is taking away from God's word.

Yeah, that's really helpful. I'm sure that's helpful for a lot of the guys that might be listening to this, too.

So thanks for that, Kofi. Yeah, I guess, you know, the next thing

I want to talk about is to what extent are the qualifications of a person's character, you know, when it comes to pursuing eldership or elders should have, you know,

X, Y and Z qualification that you said it's mainly about character.

So for a moment, let me you know, let me read the qualifications for an elder. From First Timothy, Chapter three.

So First Timothy three, one through seven. It says it is, it says it is a trustworthy statement.

If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he designs he desires to do.

An overseer then must be above reproach.

And I would argue the above reproach really is like a summary statement. Hmm. And everything else is an explanation of what it is to be above reproach.

So what does it mean to be above reproach? He's the husband of one wife. I'd love to say more about that, but we're not trying to get canceled off YouTube.

The husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, uncontentious, free from the love of money.

He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under all control and under control with all dignity.

But if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God and not a new convert?

Lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. And he must have a good reputation with those who are outside the church so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Hmm. So that's the qualifications for a pastor.

And like I said on Sunday, all but one of them focus on character. Yeah. And again,

I quote D .A. Carson, the list is remarkable for being unremarkable, which for a long time

I didn't really understand. I used to think that this was like exemplary above and beyond. And it really wasn't until I started studying this and actually

Tim Challies, the blogger from Canada a few years ago, wrote a series of articles on this.

I think it was called the character of a Christian or something like that. And he argued very convincingly something that I had seen in my own reading.

I wasn't sure about. And I've since heard a number of people say that the list in first Timothy three, one through seven is what should be true of every

Christian man. Yeah. Regardless of whether he's an elder or not.

And so that speaks to the fact that there is a depth of Christian character that's an elder is supposed to have.

He's again, if he's going to be an example that we talked about, then he has to first and foremost live up to this standard.

Not perfectly. That's not the point, because none of us are perfect. I think the key is in that for each above reproach that you can't say anything.

My boss used to say like this, and it stuck with me. I think I even said on Sunday that you can say stuff about him, but the thing can't stick.

Because it's not going to be, especially if people don't like you preaching the truth, they'll say all kinds of things about you. But there's a difference between somebody saying something and it stings because it's true.

And someone saying something is just like, OK, ouch. Why would you even say that? But that's not true.

And it's people can attest to the fact that's not true. Yeah. And so, you know, that's a massive difference between, you know,

I think the qualifications for an elder, you know, I think not difference, but a massive thing about that, that this is somebody who lives the kind of life that is above and beyond exemplary.

Which is what we should all be striving to live, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And could you repeat that quote one more time? You said it's how remarkable it is to be unremarkable or something like.

Oh, so D .A. Carson said that this list is remarkable for being unremarkable.

Unremarkable. OK, OK. But there's nothing special about this list. Yeah. Kind of counterintuitive to what you think for a leadership position.

Typically, you want leaders to be above and beyond. Yeah. Gold's miles. Yeah. Miles out of here.

And there's a degree to which. Yeah. You want them to be men of high character, to be sure. But nothing in this list is impossible for any

Christian. Right. Which I think some people think of that list like that. Like, oh, I have to be 100 percent on all of these.

And I've got to be like, like the almost as perfect as Jesus in this list.

Well, I think lots of people on lots of on both sides in the eldership and in the pew sometimes think you must be perfect.

I will be watching you with my clipboard. And the minute that I can't take something, you're going to hear,

OK, relax. Like he's a human, too. As I said yesterday, there is only one perfect man.

He sits at the father's right hand. Considering I live on planet Earth, I'm clearly not him. So and no pastor is going to be that man.

Praise God, I don't have to be. And in fact, he's perfect for me, which is great. So, yeah, it's again, it's the thing of high character, not perfection.

Yeah, absolutely. And there was that phrase, I think.

I don't know if it was on the last podcast or was that church that you said that I want you to touch on this a little more, that you should be able to throw a rock into the pews and hit an elder qualified guy every time or something like that.

So that I think that was yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, that that's a phrase that I've said before, and people have found controversial.

But again, let's reverse engineer that statement a little bit. Yeah. If these are marks of Christian character that all men should pursue, let's start there.

Should all men pursue these things? Absolutely. Yeah. OK, so all men should pursue these things.

And if you're in a healthy church where all the men are pursuing this, in theory, to quote my pastor, you should be able to throw a stone and let it hit any man in the congregation and he's elder qualified.

I would say at the very least, he's deacon qualified. Yeah. Because the qualifications aren't that different.

All the difference is he doesn't need to be able to teach. So, yeah, that's how

I that's how I would kind of view that. You know, it's not again. He needs to be perfect and never put a foot wrong.

It's OK. As much as lies within him, he's doing his best to be faithful and to occupy that role.

Well, yeah. One last thing before we continue. So in that list, it's kind of funny, but like I think it assumes that it's all about the local church in that list.

And so not that we're anti -seminary because we love teaching, you know, but how do we feel about the fact, you know, that we send off maybe our best and brightest to leave the local church, be gone for a while and then come back or end up somewhere else?

I know you have thoughts on this. Yes, I do have thoughts on this. So I'm not anti -seminary.

I am in seminary, so I don't think seminary is a bad thing. I do think that the way the system has, again, personal opinion,

I think the way the system has gone has led to it being a little bit flawed. And I think the flaw comes in because the local church kind of becomes a step removed in some cases,

I won't say all, but in some cases, the local church is now a step removed from its role of examining and testing ministers.

The assumption is if a guy went to seminary, he's qualified. He might be.

We pray he is. But let's not pretend like guys have not gone to seminary, come out of seminary and have been grossly unqualified.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, for me personally, this is in an ideal world.

This is how I would love this to operate. I redeem a guy says,

OK, I'm interested in ministry. I think the Lord is leading me to pursue this as a, you know, a lifelong work.

OK. You give that man up. You give that man training and you give him opportunities to serve.

Let's give the local church time to see if his character matches what he claims.

Yeah. Now, if he does OK, there may be further education he needs at a local church can't provide.

Now, I happen to think that local churches should be in the business of training their own ministers. Not every church is at that point yet.

I think they should endeavor to get to that point as soon as they can, as the Lord gives resources and ability. But let's say there's training that you can't provide.

What the seminary should be is you're familiar with the concept of a finishing school. Now, OK, so that never finishing school is like,

OK, a person's about to typically send kids to it, they're about to grow up and it kind of prepares them for the real world, as it were.

Kind of gives them an education for what they're going to need. That's what seminary should be, a finishing school. You go and you now learn some of the things that you maybe couldn't learn in the local church context, but the local church has examined and said, this is the person we want to submit to this process.

And in some denominations, that's how it works. It's your church that sends you to seminary. I think that's a healthy way of doing it.

I think the sort of modern way that's developed where a guy can go and OK, he needs to get reference form from his pastor, but he doesn't have to check in with his pastor.

His pastor doesn't have to do any of that. The seminary says they'll take care of that. And in some cases they do. In some cases they don't.

I think that's flawed, personally. And I think it's led, in my opinion, again, the following is the opinion of Kofi Duboyan and does not express the views of Redeemer Bible Fellowship in Medford, Oregon.

In my opinion, I think we have done ourselves a massive disservice by expecting the seminaries to do the job of the local church in testing and examining and even at the training level.

You know, I love what Al Moller said. Al Moller said, if I do my job right, I want to ensure that our graduates put

Southern Seminary out of business. Yeah, because they're doing all the training in -house, they don't need us.

But again, that's a that's a that's a whole other conversation. Maybe one of these days when I'm not preaching and we decide to do one of these,

I'll just talk about that for an hour and scare everybody in the process. But for now, that's my short version.

And I'm doing my best to behave myself and not go into a full on rant about that. Yeah, we've been here all day and it's already late.

So no problem. So qualifications are really about character.

And the one competence for an elder is the ability to teach. You know, when people hear that, like when

I hear that, I automatically springboard like you've got to know how to teach all of these doctrines within a matter of like five minutes, you know.

So what does that mean to be able to teach like? Yeah, give us some examples of that and helpful ways to think about that.

Sure. So actually, there's a really great article that was just published on Nine Marks called

I think it was called Leaders Teach or something to that effect by David Mathis, who's pastor of City's Church in the

Twin Cities area in Minnesota. Well, this is able to teach is the idea of.

I think Mathis makes a good point in this article. You could almost translate that teacher to the way that we see someone is talkative that they're just prone to talking.

It's the same thing that an elder has the ability, the skill to teach.

It doesn't say anything about whether he's perfect at it. It just means that he has the raw ability to do so.

And here's the thing. Very few preachers are born with the natural gifts and abilities to preach well.

That you have to work at it. You know, I've been doing this a while now. And so at this point,

I started teaching Bible studies and stuff at age 17, I'm 31 now. I've been preaching every

Sunday by and large, only for the last couple of years. So I had to learn how to do this, and I think sometimes, you know, people read that qualification and assume that it means there's no room for learning, there's no room for growth.

He has to be perfect right now. And that's why, honestly, if I can say something that might be a little controversial,

I think lots of men are scared of ministry because they assume they have to be perfect at preaching when they start.

No, it just means you have some sort of ability that people can hear you, as my pastor can say, they can follow you, that no one listens to you and say, oh, heavens,

I'm lost. I don't have no idea what he's saying. And again, this is where I think if local churches took their role of training seriously, they would do much more opportunities to teach guys how to preach, give them opportunities.

Let's see if we can, again, it's like a muscle. If you're using a muscle for the first time, it's going to hurt and feel weird when you do it.

All the time, it won't feel weird when you use it. And so the ability to teach, first and foremost, isn't an automatic thing.

Also, it could be teaching in a variety of settings. I think the sort of typical thing we think of teaching,

I consider to be a baseline requirement, but that might not be the primary way in which you teach.

For some, your teaching may look like teaching in the counseling room. For some, your teaching may look like teaching more in a classroom setting or like in some of my friends who are pastors, you know, their primary remit is they preach

Sunday school sermons or Sunday school classes, I should say. And they're really good at that. I think of one of my friends who's a pastor out in Reno, has these really in -depth

Sunday school classes that he teaches and they're excellent. And he's quite content with that.

You know, so again, teaching can take a variety of forms and formats. I think the baseline requirement is just that actual ability to take the truth of God and to explain it and apply it to God's people.

And I would argue that the baseline way we do that is in the pulpit, if you want to use that language.

But it doesn't mean that that's the only place or even the primary place where you might use that gift.

Yeah, well, that's really helpful. Last point in this section, man, just it's so important to know that elders lead by both word and deed.

So can you expand on that a little more? Sure. So I would argue that the leadership that elders exercise is primarily through word and example.

So as they proclaim the word of God, so the Hebrews 13, 7, I quoted earlier, I think would be helpful to think about this.

So Hebrews 13, 9, 11, 13.

So Hebrews 13, 7 says, Remember those who led you or your leaders who spoke the word of God to you and considering the result of their conduct imitates their faith.

So you got both of those things side by side. They're your leaders. They spoke God's word to you and they had a, how does the

NES put it? They had a conduct, a way of life, and you're supposed to imitate that.

And so it's word, the proclamation of the truth and example, the living of a life that as Titus says, you know,

Paul says to Titus, the things that are in keeping with sound doctrine. And so that's how an elder has authority.

The elders authority is not in himself. His authority comes from his faithfulness to the word and his faithfulness in his life, both of which are empowered by the spirit of God through the gospel.

Absolutely. It's really cool because that's kind of just what makes a healthy Christian, you know, and that sort of multiplies in the body and then the whole body is healthy.

That's just a beautiful way that the Holy Spirit works. Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about deacons, man.

You know, come from my background, I never really heard of deacons in my mind.

I just hear about leaders like everyone's type of leader. And so these words, elders, deacons, pastors, overseers,

I mean, I heard pastor. That's kind of like what's these terms. But the deacon, you're saying they're the same qualifications for an elder.

Except for the ability to teach. Except for that. Now, that's what I want to address a little bit.

Can you talk about how, like, is that an absolute or deacons just not allowed to teach?

It's not that. Good question. So it's not that they're not allowed to teach. Is that they don't have to be able to teach.

They don't have to be able. Yeah. So you may have. So I attended a church in London for a while.

Well, one of the deacons, whose son is actually a good friend of mine. One of the deacons had an exemplary teaching gift.

Like he could bring it, but he was a deacon. And he was happy in that role.

So it's not again, it's not that we're saying if you're a deacon, you can never teach. No, no, no.

That's a that's a rule. No, it's simply saying that it's not a requirement for being a deacon like it is for being an elder.

Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it does.

And you said something like, you know, deacons are the least,

I don't know, not paid attention to, but they don't just get a lot of flair or a lot of. They're not exposed, you know, and so can you just highlight the ministry of the deacon and why it's actually vital for the church?

So the deacon takes care of the day to day needs of the ministry so that the elders are freed up to focus on the ministry of the word and prayer.

So, you know, there are the folks who, you know, they are the arms, if you will, if one is an eligible body, they're the arms of the church.

They're the kind of, you know, they pick things up, they get things moved along, they get things done. Again, we look at Acts chapter six, the apostles say, look, we shouldn't leave the preaching of God's word to wait on tables.

So let us, um, appoint some men to this office and they take the lead in this area and, you know,

God bless that. And so that's what we're seeing with the ministry of deacons. They take care of the material needs of the body, the care needs of the body.

So typically in most churches, the deacons are the ones who handle issues of benevolence and issues of, you know, if somebody's, you know, in a tight spot is the deacons who under the leadership of the elders will mobilize care for that person, that sort of thing.

Um, you know, in some churches, they're the ones who help people move or organize, helping people move. I remember church that we were at here in town.

Um, one of their deacons who will remain nameless, but wonderful, godly man, um, that guy could serve like he was always the guy like mobilizing stuff and making stuff happen.

Like, in fact, his nickname was super. And then his name, because that guy was just like super deacon or something.

I mean, we might as well call him super deacon, to be honest. And sometimes I did, or I used to call him the archdeacon because I mean, that guy could, that guy could serve like servant's heart, like nothing else.

And just be like, Oh, like I come to church on Sundays and he's the one who's like, you know, motioning people to their seats and stuff.

Um, great guy in that regard, you know, you know, those are the kinds of men who help to get the church moving along in terms of his practical needs.

And again, I think it's tragic that they're often so neglected. I think it's tragic that we don't talk about their ministry in the church, because in a lot of ways, the church couldn't do what the church needs to do without them.

You know, if I can speak plainly, I think one of the things that hampers our body. So many things get left off to the wayside because there isn't someone to oversee that.

And in a healthy church, you've got people who are, Oh, this person's the point person for this. Oh, you need this help.

This is the person you speak to. You need this help. This is the person you speak to. And they're your point people. I think I said on Sunday that they are the chief servants.

Yeah. That they're not the only servants. They're the chief servants. They run point for everybody else and where they need to serve.

So, you know, again, deep ministry of deacons, invaluable, practical, and we cannot afford to ignore them.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's so interesting. Like with that, there's no distinctions then technically we're all deacons to some extent, but to have that laid out structure is really helpful for the body.

Um, but I know we're praying that the Lord would raise up deacons and his own timing and, uh, just something to look forward to as well on our own body.

Um, so, um, what's the deal with male versus female deacons?

I mean, do deacons always have to deac, you know, um,

Oh man, here we go. So this festival, our church hasn't taken a position as yet.

Um, I know we are in the process of being adopted by another church. So there's still some conversations to be had about how they view these issues.

So once again, the following is solely the opinion of Kofi Edoboian and does not reflect the views of redeemer

Bible fellowship in Medford, Oregon. Okay. Now that I've said that, I think a biblical case can be made for female deacons in the church.

Allow me to present my evidence. Actually, if you want a really good article on this as well, um, Tom Schreiner, uh, wrote an article.

It was part of a, it was kind of a two part debate article. Um, his article was called,

I have it open here. Does the Bible support female deacons? Yes.

Uh, published by Tom Schreiner is on the gospel coalition. If you type in female deacons, Tom Schreiner, S C H R E I N E R.

Um, you'll find that on the website and he makes a good summary of a case that I heard my own pastor.

So my church back in London, Grace Life London did have, um, female deacons and they taught on this as to why this was permissible from scripture.

Hmm. Now let's be clear. This is not a sin issue. Good and godly believers go both ways on this subject, but I think a case can be made for female deacons.

So in first Timothy chapter three, verses eight through 13, you have the qualifications for a deacon. But the interesting thing is if you look at that passage, actually,

I think I can get logos open pretty quickly. Let's use my browser version. Let's open this up for everyone at home so they can see it.

Yeah, that'd be good. So give me a moment. Uh, get that full screen area.

So I'm going to sign in. I'm going to show them all my password because don't you see that? Let's open up my trusty

Christians under Bible. All right. So for the benefit of those of you who are listening to the audio version,

I'm opening up another screen so that the folks watching the video can see first Timothy chapter three, verse eight.

Okay, there we are. That's my comment. I was reading. We can close that first Timothy three, eight.

And let me make that a little bigger so everyone at home can actually see that. There we go.

So in first Timothy chapter three, you've got verses eight through 10, which lay out the qualifications.

If you look at verse 11, however, you see something that's not in the first list in verses one through seven.

So here's the elder qualifications. So that let's, if we show this by color, it'd be a good way to show this.

Then you've got the deacon qualifications and we'll mark these in a different color, but then you have a different set of instructions in verse 11.

So in the Christian standard Bible, which will mark another color, it says wives likewise should be worthy of respect, not slanderous, self -controlled, faithful in everything.

Deacons ought to be husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households competently for those who serve well as deacons acquire good standing for themselves and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

I would argue that there's something very interesting happening here in verse 12. In fact,

I'm going to unmark that and just mark verse 11. In verse 11, you have qualifications that are given for the wives of deacons.

You don't see the same qualification given for the elders.

In fact, most of our translations go different ways with this. And in fact, the

CSB has a footnote here. You can translate that word. I can't quite see that. Let's see if I can zoom in a little bit.

No, OK, but it says where it says wives in verse 11, the

Greek word actually isn't the word for wives. It's just the word women. That's what the NAS has. Right.

I was just about to say, I think the NAS says women. So there's a little ambiguity there.

Well, it's a whole separate category. Exactly. Is he talking? Why does he have a qualification for the wives of deacons, but not the wives of elders?

Unless this isn't talking about wives, it's talking about women. And it's saying that women can serve in this office.

Because remember, technically speaking, deacons are not leaders. That's why in my sermon point,

I didn't say they leave the church. I said they serve the church because there's a difference. Technically speaking, the leadership in the church are elders, pastors and overseers.

Yeah, yeah. There's also another thing that I point you to in Romans chapter 16.

So we're going to leave first Timothy Romans 16, verse one.

The text says, I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant. And here's the footnote in the

CSB, but what's the word there? What is it? The word there is, we can actually open that up in the power of logos.

Diakonon or diakonos. Well, we get our word deacon from.

Oh, snap. In fact, let me open up a Bible study on that. So the word is actually translated a number of times as deacons.

And you can see the references there on screen. Yeah. Wow. So it's interesting.

Here's Phoebe is clearly a woman. She's called a sister. He didn't have gender confusion in the first century.

Like we do today. So she's clearly a woman, but she said to be a servant of the church in Cancria.

This seems to be a title for a specific office. She held back in her church in Cancria. Right.

And it wouldn't compromise what we believe about biblical roles. I would not.

I don't think it would because it's a service role, not a leadership role. Now I've heard people try and say, and this is,

I don't think it's a strong argument, if I'm honest, but I've heard people say you can't have, um, women serving as deacons, because if you have women serving as deacons, then how are they, what happens when a husband has to submit to his wife, when she's functioning as a deacon that already tells me you don't understand how a deacon operates an assumption there.

Right. Thank you. You picked up on it. You're assuming that a deacon has a leadership role, right?

Not in that sense. They're not, we're not saying they're elders.

This is what happens when you don't have clear biblical distinctions about offices in the church. Unfortunately, there are some churches where their deacons function like elders.

That's not biblical. Yeah. If he's an elder, if he's elder qualified, make the man an elder. If he's deacon qualified, make the man a deacon.

Don't confuse the two and say, well, he's a deacon, but he basically functions like elders. There are lots of Baptist churches, for instance, that function in this way.

You've got one pastor and a bunch of deacons. No. So that's not, that's not plurality of elders, but they'd be functioning in that way, essentially.

And I know churches, you know, I think of a good friend of mine out in the Atlanta area where eventually after being at his church for a while, he transitioned the church from having kind of a deacon board that functioned like elders to having elders and deacons.

And it took him years to make that change because you know, traditions are a powerful thing. And if all the churches you've known have always done this, you've got to do a lot of work to teach and explain what those ministries actually are, but again, coming back to our text here,

Phoebe is clearly called a servant or a deacon. And in fact, um, the

CSB says others interpret this term in the technical sense, deacon or deaconess or minister or courier,

I think deacon or deaconess actually fits the context best. So again,

I think a biblical argument can be at least inferred. It's why

I wouldn't make this a hill to die on. And I've been in churches where they did have female deacons and been in churches where they didn't, and I didn't lose sleep over it because I do think we have to be honest and say, it's an inference.

It doesn't have the same amount of weight as a biblical command. Right. But I think there's a conversation to be had at the very least about whether a church can have female deacons and still be faithful to the biblical commands that say,

I don't suffer a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. So again, it's an interesting conversation to have at some point.

Again, I think our church will have that conversation at some point when we start thinking about a deaconate in the future.

But again, this is where I personally land and I'm not dragging our church one way or another until we've firstly figured out, okay, the church that we're coming under, where they stand on this.

And then when the need arises for us to, I pray to God at some point appoint deacons, we'll do some more teaching on this and flesh this out and take people's questions.

Yeah. Bring people along. Bring people along. Exactly. Well, last thing is the fact that the leadership is a gift from God to the local church.

I don't think people think about it like that, that these are gifted men, you know, gifted people who are leading his church.

And so can you lastly just talk a little more about that and the assumptions that are there?

Sure. So I open up Logos again.

We can get rid of this. Yeah. I think sometimes we miss this.

There's a lot of debate about Ephesians four 11 and the language of, you know, apostles and prophets and all the apostles and prophets today and all that.

Before you get to all that, let me start in verse seven, Paul says, now grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift for it says when he ascended on high, he took the captives captive.

He gave gifts to people. But what does he ascended mean? Except that he also descended to the lower parts of the earth.

The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above the heavens to fill all things.

And he, well, who's the, he, in this passage clearly pointing us back to Jesus.

Yeah. It's Jesus. He himself gave some well implication.

If you give the question you have to ask is gift to who? Hmm. Well, he says he gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

So who are gifted men given to the members to the church?

Yeah. And who are they given by Jesus? Paul's emphatic.

He himself, Christ is the one who out of love for his people, the people that he shed his life's blood for gives to the church, faithful men to serve the church.

And so I think, and a lot of, and this is where I kind of went full circle with what I read to begin the sermon from that blog post, the reality is if you have a mindset that says that these men just want to take over and want to do everything and they want to be in charge and you basically view them with inherent suspicion,

I think you're missing out on the fact that Christ in his mercy has given you a gift. Yeah, absolutely.

And that's not to say every person who's a pastor is a gift. There are some men who find their way into the office. We have no business being there.

I'm not talking about them. Let's just be clear about that. I'm talking about faithful men who proven themselves, who you can say, yes, this is a godly man and he should absolutely fulfill this role.

A godly man like that is a gift from God that the people of God should treasure. Because why?

That's exactly what he is. He's a gift from the ascended Christ to the people of his love.

Yeah. So here's a little, and I might be splitting hairs and we don't have to, but like when

I think about church governments and the way that churches function in different ways, everything you just said about, you know, leadership being a gift to the church, how does that work with denominational structures versus non -denominational structures?

So denominations are things that we come up with for organizational purposes and what have you. I don't think denominations are inherently bad.

Um, I do think of late, a lot of denominations have been making very questionable decisions to be fair, but by and large,

I don't think that, um, you know,

I don't think that denominations are inherently bad and within, you know, as long as the denomination is seeking to be faithful to scripture, the men that it puts forward for ministry can still absolutely function in this

Ephesians four kind of way. Hmm. It's not that they're inherently suspicious because they come from a denominational structure, not at all.

Right. The question is, is it the nomination selecting and appointing men who meet the biblical standard?

Yeah, that's the real question. Not whether they're, they came from a denominational background or a non -denominational background.

That's not really the issue per se. Yeah. So the reason

I asked that is because I think of some out there where they, and I could be completely wrong about this, just to be fair.

Um, they pull a guy who's connected either from a seminary or another church somewhere who's coming in to look into pastor.

Um, but then they pull him outside from his local church, you know, and I would consider them still a gift if the denomination is trying to be faithful and whatnot, so, yeah, what do you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's not the ideal. Uh, I think ideally you should want the leadership of a church to come from within that body.

That's not always possible. There may be various facets that suggest, okay, um, you know, you've got to get somebody from outside.

I'm not opposed to that. I'm in a place for it. Yeah. Um, but yeah,

I think in an ideal university, we all want to be raising up men from within who can serve in these areas.

Awesome. Yeah. And it boils down to, you know, the late leadership is a gift from the

Lord and we should continue to pray for our teachers, pastors and elders and deacons and everyone who's in the body really, but I think that's all

I got. Kofi. So, all right. I mean, we've been at, oh my word. We've been at, it's almost two hours. You know, time flies when time does fly.

Um, but yeah, for everyone who's listening to this, we might have to chop this up into like two episodes to make it a bit manageable, but yeah,

I'm the editor guy, so we'll see what happens. But, um, again, I think you ended on a great note, brother, that we should view leadership, not as a problem to be dealt with, but as a gift to be received ultimately, because that's how

God wants us to understand faithful biblical church leadership. Well, on that note, this has been episode number four of the cutting room floor podcast.

Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions or things you'd like us to follow up on in future episodes, please email us at cutting room floor at redeemer medford .org.

That's cutting room floor at redeemer medford .org and Lord willing, we will see you next time.