Joseph Smith a Prophet of God?

Hey, what's your guy's name though? I'm Andrew. I'm Elder Stuart. Elder Stuart, okay. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Elder Wakefield. Nice. Are you guys here on your mission right now? Yep. Cool.

So, did you guys just start your mission? I've been out for about two years. Two years. So, are you going home soon?

Yep, I'm going home in June. June, where do you go? I'm from California.

California, like San Diego or what? Near San Francisco. Near San Francisco, Northern California. Yep. Cool, cool. So, why do you guys believe that this church is true? Were you raised in it? Was it something that you came to believe?

Yeah. Talk to us. Tell us.

Definitely both. You know, I was raised in this church. My parents believed it and then, you know, I got to the point where I was a teenager where I was like, you know, is this, you know, is this the way, is this the truth that I believe as well?

And so, you know, I read the Book of Mormon. I prayed about it. You know, I, you know, studied as much as I could and, you know, just through that and, you know, I came to have my own testimony, my own belief.

And it's really been solidified since I've been on my mission, you know, I've had the opportunity to share with other people and sharing it with people really testifies to me, you know, through the spirit that, you know, what I know is true.

Nice. Okay. Same thing with you pretty much?

Yeah, I mean, I came through a lot of prayer, a lot of study from the Book of Mormon. I came to testimony of the Book of Mormon. It is true, I felt. It's the Word of God. And because of that, I know that the Church of Jesus Christ is true because that's one of the witnesses and the evidences of the truth.

It's a testimony of Joseph Smith and his first vision. Yeah, gotcha. Can I mention something?

Joseph Smith, Personal Testimony, and the Claim of Prophetic Authority

Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Yeah, so like one of the reasons, too, like you mentioned your testimony and, you know, I definitely appreciate, you know, your most, pretty much any missionary who goes on the field is typically sincere, which I always respect and appreciate.

And in many ways, too, like one of the things just to bring up is that, you know, we, us three, we all have testimonies as well, too. And we would be, we would make claims as equally as sincere. But according to your own testimony that Joseph Smith, as a prophet of God, is one of the claims that we're out here, not that we're offended by it, but we're just out as we're in response to it.

So, I mean, Joseph Smith's primary claim of the restoration is that he went out to go out to the woods to pray and see which church was true. And in Joseph Smith's history, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ come down in separate form.

God says, the Father says, this is my beloved son, hear him. And he isn't, and Joseph Smith is instructed that he should join none of the churches, that all the professors are corrupt, all their creeds are an abomination in God's sight.

You have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. That's describing us, all of the, us as Christians and all the Christian denomination. So we don't, we don't take, we're not offended by that.

But in many ways, I think we have a right as Christians to respond to that sort of attack and really say, no, that we would contend with that. For example, that Jesus Christ himself said the church would not fall away.

He said, upon this rock, I'll establish my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So there's this conflict with our testimony because Jesus Christ said his church would never fall away.

And Joseph Smith said that it did. So that's just one thing I bring up real quickly.

Testing Religious Experience by Scripture

So what I would ask you then is if you receive a testimony, right, you have this experience that's helping you determine this truth of what you believe in. The question is, is what if it testifies to a different Jesus?

What if it's a different spirit who's deceiving you? How do you test that? Do you test it only through prayer? Right. Because there's people who pray, but they believe in a totally different Jesus. For example, we have the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They believe that Jesus Christ is the first creation of Jehovah God. Right. That he was once Michael the archangel. And then he took on flesh. He died, but then resurrected as a spirit creature. They pray about it and they're sincere.

But I would submit that it testifies to a different Jesus. Right. So, for example, guys, in 2 Corinthians 11, verse 4, we're warned that there's people who will come and preach a different Jesus, a different gospel, who will accept a different spirit.

Says that straight up. The question is, is how do we know? First, John 4 tells us to test the spirits. Well, there's two tests of a prophet in the Bible. There's one in Deuteronomy 13 and one in Deuteronomy 18.

So, for example, Deuteronomy 13 says, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs and wonders, but leads you after other gods, gods of which you have not known, do not believe that.

All right. So the question is, is how do we know if Joseph led us after other gods? And again, this test of a prophet is saying, even if there are signs and wonders, even if it looks legit, but if they lead you after other gods, gods which you have not known, don't believe them.

Right. So the Bible states about God. That's how we know who God is in his word. In Psalm 90, verse 2 says God has been God from everlasting into everlasting. Colossians 115 about Jesus says that he's the image of the invisible God.

The firstborn of all creation in terms of the word prototokos, which means heir of all things, because even the Bible calls David the firstborn. But we know he wasn't the firstborn from the son of Jesse.

OK, so he's the heir of all things. Right. He created all things visible and invisible on heaven and in earth, whether thrones, dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him, for him and by him.

However, this is what Joseph says about God. He says in the King Follett discourse, you have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity. But I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see you have got to learn to become God.

Then another words of your prophet, Lorenzo Snow, as man is, God once was and as God is, man may become. We see there's two different gods being presented to us, just as I could talk to the Jehovah's Witness and say he's not the first, he's not the first created being from Jehovah.

I can say to the LDS person, according to the word of God, that Jesus isn't the offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives. So if you believe in a different Jesus, one that's not of scripture, you don't have a sacrifice for your sins.

Instead, you want to work up that sacrifice yourself. Not only that, the church teaches you that you can become a God one day with your own righteous works. Isaiah 43, 10, guys, it says, before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

How do you respond to that? If I have scripture to show me the word of God that has been handed to me throughout time and protected by the Holy Spirit himself, who can actually warn me to not be deceived because I can rely on the word of God that it's true.

I won't be deceived. How do you respond to that? If it's just your experience that determines truth and not God's word, how do you know you're not being deceived?

Scripture, Context, and the LDS View of the Bible

So you presented a lot of things, obviously, and we obviously don't actually have time to respond to them. We got to go to church pretty soon. But I mean, I've had a lot of this conversation before. I've been out a little bit.

And with that, I mean, there's a lot of the scriptures that you've cited are. Obviously, we have different interpretations of them with different understandings of them, because we we we study the scriptures.

They're part of our belief, but we still have a different understanding of the belief. Yeah. And. That's what you're saying. And I would just say, I mean, the Bible also just talks about, you know, how we believe in the Bible.

We read the King James Version.

Insofar as it's translated correctly, correct? And that it's missing many, missing many plain and precious parts, right?

Well, we believe the King James Version is pretty much correct.

So we believe that you don't think it's missing many plain and precious parts.

I'm not I don't know what it could be missing, but we but we believe in it. So I believe I we believe in the God and in the Jesus Christ of the Old and New Testament. OK, which I think would be the same as many of you guys.

So so you said that you interpret it through a different lens. I agree with you on that. I think you interpret it through the lens of Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. You have two separate standards here.

You have the standard of the word of God and then you elevate the Book of Mormon over the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, the Book of Abraham. You interpret scripture through that lens.

But how do you interpret then Isaiah 43, 10, before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I am the Lord. Beside me, there is no God.

A lot of the scriptures you have to take it in context. That's when Isaiah is preaching to his people when they're worshiping idols and they're making their own gods. They're making idol idol worship.

So we we believe in Jesus Christ and we believe in the same Jesus Christ that you do. And that's why we are part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And unfortunately, we don't have a whole lot of time to talk to you.

We don't want to bash with you. Right. But we appreciate your perspective, appreciate your time. And it was nice getting to know you. Yeah, like a track.

We got one at State Conference. Appreciate it. OK. Oh, you guys, did you guys see us out there? We saw some family. Yeah. Oh, OK. Cool. Have a good day. Yep. Please test the spirits, guys. Joseph Smith fails both tests of a prophet.