June 14, 2016 Show with Tony Costa on “Islam & Terrorism: Why has Muhummand’s Religion Made the World a More Dangerous Place?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man

sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the

planet earth, listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the

14th day of June 2016 and we are honored and

delighted to have back on Iron Sharpens Iron a man who is fast becoming one of my very

favorite guests, Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

In light of the horrific events of this past Sunday morning in Orlando,

Florida, we are going to be discussing the theme, Islam and terrorism, why has

Muhammad's religion made our world a more dangerous place, a necessary discussion in the aftermath

of the Orlando massacre when victims are in flagrant rebellion against God.

The first half of that theme you may be hearing every single day, numerous times a day,

perhaps even all day, on a number of television stations such as Fox

News and others, but the last element of our discussion is something that you will

very rarely ever hear openly discussed even on conservative TV

and talk radio when victims are in flagrant rebellion against God and that is

something that needs to be addressed as well in addition to the first part of our discussion.

But first of all, let me welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Tony Costa.

It's always a pleasure to be on your show.

And some of our guests are tuning in to hear you for the first time, no doubt.

Why don't you just briefly explain Toronto Baptist Seminary and what your

position is there.

Toronto Baptist Seminary is

one of the

last school

that is

committed.

Our motto is, we take a

stand for the word of God, an

uncompromising

stand to train

young

men using

their

theology

and also church history as well.

And I also have the privilege of

being an adjunct, and

I'm also an

adjunct

with going out and...

Is T .T. Shields one of those names that I, if I remember correctly, was associated with the early

foundings of fundamentalism at the Niagara Bible Conference?

Yes, he was related to that as well.

He was a very strong, reformed preacher.

A very controversial

and

logical

bully.

Amen.

And by the way, that was the golden tone voice of my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Why don't you officially greet our guest today, Buzz?

Well, it's good to have you back, Dr. Costa, and looking forward to what you have for us today.

Thank you, sir.

And it's a privilege to have you.

And I'd like to give our listeners the opportunity to also chime in with

their own questions today, as always, by email at chrisarnson at gmail

dot com.

And we ask of you to give us your first name, your city and state,

and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com.

And we look forward to hearing what you have to say in regard to this very controversial

and difficult subject.

Well, first of all, the horrific events that we have all heard about by now,

anyone who has any form of media, whether it be radios, televisions or computers,

they've no doubt heard about this.

And it has been described as the largest mass shooting in the United States history.

And actually, I've got a post by Eric Holmberg, who has been a

guest on Iron Sharpens Iron of the Apologetics Network.

He begged to differ on that statistic.

He said that the largest mass shooting in U .S. history happened December 29,

1890, when 290 seven Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee

Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota

were murdered by federal agents and members of the 7th Calvary who had

come to confiscate their firearms for their own safety and protection, which was

what the lie that was told these Sioux Indians, the slaughter began after the

majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms.

So that is an interesting statistic that throws a monkey

wrench into the news reports.

And I had also wondered if the Mountain Meadows massacre that had taken

place in the 19th century by the order of Brigham Young of the Mormon Church,

who slaughtered Mormons, who slaughtered dozens of

innocent men, women, and children, I believe children over the age of 8, and

those younger were spared, were the only ones spared.

But as I was discussing with Dr. White yesterday, with that case, we do not know

how many of them were shot because there was a combination of shooting and

stabbing and axes and things like that being used.

So we will never know how many of those victims, which exceeded the number in Orlando, we will

never know how many of those were shot.

But having said all of that, this is indeed a horrific event and

it demands our attention as Christians and it demands our attention as Christians because of

the two reasons that we are actually having Dr.

Costa as a guest today.

The two reasons why these demand the attention of Christians is that this involves one of the

world's largest religions, Islam, and it also involves the

sin of homosexuality and the venue, and the in which this

massacre took place is not only a well -known

establishment popular amongst the homosexual community, if you want to use that

term, I despise that term actually because we don't refer to the adulterer community or

the murderer community or the thief community, but the homosexuals in

the Orlando area or those involved in that activity are known to frequent this establishment which

is primarily there for their enjoyment and obviously there are

heterosexuals that go there too who celebrate that sin with them.

And it also is a hub apparently according to news reports, a hub of the

homosexual activist community, that it seems to be some kind of a gathering place where leaders

in activism gather together to not only celebrate

things but to discuss strategy of public relations and

activism and that kind of thing.

So there are a number of very controversial factors that muddy the waters of

addressing a horrific event like this.

And first of all, let's address Tony so our listeners know

exactly where you are coming from.

You are someone who really thoroughly knows

the Islamic religion.

I know that most apologists shy away from calling themselves experts, but you are a serious student of

Islam and you've debated Muslims, and so this is not just a cursory knowledge.

You have of the subject of Islam, am I correct?

Yes, that's Islam.

Now for I would say...

And tell us about some of the debates you've had with Muslims.

I have debated quite a elite.

Yes.

He and I go, we're good friends actually, we're very good friends,

Antonians, and we go away to many other

Christian

apologists as well.

Yes.

I've debated many others, Sadat Anwar,

and invited

by the early

90s, I began

already sounding the alarm in the early 90s in the church

and telling them about the winds are blowing now, but you're going to see earth,

it still takes us, we have to show the love

of God and so forth.

But there's also speaking the truth in love, as Ephesians 4 .15 points out, and also

dealing with Sharia law and

the expansion of the

Islamic hegemony.

And so,

we're

active in making...

And it's interesting.

How someone might differentiate or contrast loving people

into the kingdom with telling them and warning them about things they must repent of in

order to be spared of the fires.

Of hell.

Isn't that love?

Yes, yes,

we treat,

many Christians treat, they

think that family and

mother and brothers were offended at him.

And so, the reason for that is because truth by nature is offensive.

The gospel is not sugar.

The gospel is, fact of the matter is,

is loving them.

He shows her compassion.

He offers her

the waters

of

liberty.

Or

it goes

to

the

other polarity

where I'm going to

give them the treatment that they need to get rid

of those cancer cells.

And that's what we're doing in our world today.

We're giving people spiritual aspirin.

Yes, and one of

the difficult tasks when you're involved in public

speaking,.

Being on a radio program or a television program or behind a pulpit when there are many

ears listening, is that you, as a Christian, should

be very concerned that you do not appear to be a Pharisee

who is self -righteous, who thinks that you are innately superior to

others, that your sins are not an offense to God, if you have any.

And I say that tongue in cheek obviously.

And that it is those people out there, the Muslims and the homosexuals,

who are the only ones deserving of God's wrath.

And in fact there are some people, I'm sure, who are celebrating, in fact I know

at least one professing pastor, Steve Anderson, who I do not even consider to be a regenerate

individual.

I think that he is lost or possibly even reprobate.

But he is a wicked individual who distorts the gospel and the truth of

God.

And mixes truths with lies, but is clearly one who delights in the

death of the wicked.

He takes exuberant joy in witnessing things like had occurred on

Sunday morning in Orlando.

And we do not want to appear to the world that we are celebrating

the fact that not only did a Muslim kill over 50 people

practicing homosexual behavior, but he also killed himself so there's double reasons to celebrate.

And there are no doubt many Christians across the country, or professing Christians, who

are laughing and making all kinds of jokes and think this is just terrific.

And at the same time, although we should rightly view this as a horrific

tragedy, I don't know how any Christian who believes in the reality of hell could view

this event with joy knowing that many if not all of those

victims were no doubt rebels against Christ and his word.

And there is no joy to be taken when such a life is removed

from the earth prior to their repentance.

And so therefore this is indeed an evil reaction to celebrate

such a thing.

But we do nonetheless have to be as Christians who claim there

is objective truth, that there are

areas of God's truth that are so clear to us that they are black and white with

no shades of gray, and they need to be put under a spotlight, and they need to be

examined in light of such a horrific tragedy.

Now, first of all, why don't you let our listeners know what you know about the specific

events that took place in Orlando, and the person who was the

perpetrator of.

These

murders.

Yes, well,

one in

the United

States, his

parents'

father, when he was in

Orlando, had been scouting

it, started, and the

father

said

that a lot,

a lot, a lot

of

meaning.

He called

the, now

you'll

notice that there's a

pattern

here,

just

share that,

what was the

ideology

in

the

show,

but,

and the Ramadan

is the holy

month, and

it's

during

right now at the Eurogames.

And so, Ramadan, because

it is the,

and what is

the,.

Now one thing that our mutual friend and brother in Christ, a

colleague of yours in the apologetics realm, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries,

one thing that he constantly reminds us of, especially

those of us who are zealous Christians, who abhor

false religions, and we may be very, we may have a very quick

trigger finger when it comes to our responses on the internet

and on our telephones and so forth, on how we respond

to these kinds of things, and he reminds us that

although we would all be in harmony as Christians that Islam is a false religion, that

we must not be involved in broad -brushing all Muslims together in

the aftermath of these kinds of events, because that is slander, it's a bearing

of false witness against your neighbor, even if your neighbor is not a Christian, and even if your neighbor is

promoting a false religion, we're not supposed to lie about them, and

also, we, who are Christians, rightly despise it when we are broad

-brushed with not only nuts and charlatanism, and Christians

like Stephen Anderson and other people who profess to be Christians, who

we, you know, want to distance ourselves as far as we can get from them, and

even when it comes to the liberal media constantly blurring

the line between Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Christianity in

regard to violence in centuries past with the

tens of thousands or countless thousands of people that were brutally tortured and

murdered at the hands of the Church of Rome, and not to say that Protestants weren't guilty

of those types of actions too, but they really pale into insignificance numerically

with what Rome had done, and Dr. Costa, who you and I are both Baptists, and

we know that as a movement and as a people, the Baptists were never guilty of these kinds of

atrocities, other than individuals who were Baptists may have done, and

have done certainly, horrible and wicked things, but as a movement our people were never involved

in the mass persecution and violent torture and death of anyone.

So we don't want to be broad -brushed with the martyrdom of individuals

that Rome had perpetrated, so therefore we should be treating our neighbors like we

expect to be treated, and therefore we should not be broad -brushing recklessly

all Muslims in one lump.

That was a very long way of asking you for a response on that very thing.

Right.

I would agree with

Dr. White that agrees

with what has to make an

important

difference for human beings with feelings, with needs, with children,

with

families,

with food,

that

every single Muslim on the face of the

earth has

a right to

have

food.

And so I think it's important to

look at the ideology, and that

would indeed be un

-Christian.

Yeah, we have to go to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Tony Costa

on Islam in the aftermath of the horrific massacre in Orlando, Florida this past

Sunday, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and obviously,

especially with a sensitive issue like this, if it makes you feel better to remain anonymous, you may do so.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat center

nestled on the Jersey Shore.

Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey

Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade,

and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org,

hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org.

That's lynnbrookbaptist .org.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. Tomi Costa,

professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Our theme today is Islam and terrorism.

Why has Muhammad's religion made our world a more dangerous place?

A necessary discussion in the aftermath of the Orlando massacre when victims are in

flagrant rebellion against God.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot

com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail dot com.

One thing that you said during your description of the individual who committed this

mass murder on Sunday in relation to his religion or his

claimed religion, Islam, is that it views

homosexuality as a very evil and unnatural practice.

I'm not sure if that was the exact wording you used, but it was obviously very similar to what you said.

Now, we as Christians believe that identically, and we

even can point to the Old Testament to where there were certainly

death penalties ascribed by God himself for people who are

unrepentant and behaving in such a fashion.

How do you respond to that reality when not only

Muslims will bring that up to us, but you'll have liberals of all sorts who remind us

of that?

And for some reason, we just lost connection.

And although we are still recording, I don't know why

we went off the air.

Welcome back.

We are back on the air, and hopefully we will remain back on the air.

I don't know what kind of evil force out there is tracking the activity of Dr. Tony Costa,

but the second time that I am aware of that we have ever gone off the air

midstream during a live broadcast, at least during the new show that we've been airing

since 2015, the only guest that this has happened with is Dr. Tony Costa, so I'm not really sure why, if

that was just quote -unquote coincidence or not.

But as I was asking you before we went off the air, it is obvious

that Islam views the wicked or

the activity of homosexuality as very wicked, unnatural,

something that is very displeasing in the sight of God, and

something that is worthy of a death penalty.

Now, we as Christians also believe that.

I mean, obviously, with the exception of a minority of Christians

today, most Bible -believing born -again evangelicals don't

believe that homosexuals should be arrested

and sentenced to death in the new covenant that we are now living in.

But having said that, we do still believe it is a sin worthy of death because of

what God himself prescribed for that sin in the Old Testament, which we view

as equally inspired and inerrant as the New Testament.

So if you could explain that dilemma that seems to be in

existence whenever we as Christians criticize Muslims for their

violent acts today.

...simply collapse the

old little

burst Jesus brought in the new covenant.

And they also do

the same with

sexuality, where commandments that

were in Israel that was mediated through

Moses.

Not a democracy.

Now, under the new covenant, of course, we're no longer

undressing prophets.

And so in the new covenant, adulterers and murderers,

murderers, yadders, and

idolaters, all of these were federal capital offenses under the

Mosaic law.

And

so we're

under

a new covenant, but

we're not under a theocracy.

Well, let me ask you a question.

I mean, I don't want to sidetrack our whole discussion here, but you said something that made me

kind of jolt in my chair a little bit.

Do we believe as Christians or do you believe that someone who has a different view

of the New Testament Sabbath than you do is going to experience

spiritual death, meaning damnation, if they are not in compliance with an actual Sabbath

day, if they perhaps are a part of the new covenant theology camp or so on, which

believes that Christ is the Sabbath and we don't have a particular day set apart other than when we

gather publicly as a corporate body of believers?

Yeah, I personally don't find any evidence.

Okay, I guess I misunderstood something that you said.

That was all.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's fine.

Okay, and so therefore there would be one

way of differentiating the violence that clearly exists in the old covenant

in regard to death penalty laws and so on that extend beyond death penalty for

murder, and therefore there is also another

thing that should be taken into consideration when it comes to even Islam.

Now, as Dr. White had pointed out on his show, The Dividing Line,

that vigilantism and maverick, lone maverick

wolves committing

or executing those that are in violation of Islamic law,

including what we had just heard about on Sunday, where over 50 people were executed

for the crime of homosexuality, allegedly, that is something that Islam

as a religion and as a culture, according to Dr. White, was not something that was

condoned or practiced, that they never would have been able to build the

civilizations that they did if they were permitting and even commanding

vigilantes to run around and execute people at will.

Could you respond to that differentiation?

Yes.

Well,

again, the

whole

concept

of, again, we have to

put this

into the

context of

vigilantes.

They were

individuals who were

companions,

but I think

the fact here is that

this man pledged allegiance to ISIS, and he was simply following orders to kill and

to maim Iraq.

So it has never been possible.

Has it been established that there was definitely an ISIS connection?

I mean, there are obviously serial killers and nuts and fanatics who

will make a claim of something that has them connected to a far greater entity

than they are.

Right.

It has not yet.

I mean, they're still investigating.

It has not yet.

The connection has not yet been made.

So at this point, no, they're still on...

Also, I'd like you to define jihad.

We always hear that word bantered about in the media every day, it seems,

because of the fact that the world is on the edge of our collective

seats, watching as every day we hear about some

kind of an act of atrocity.

At least it seems like it's every day.

I may be exaggerating, but it certainly seems that the rapidity of these events is

nearly daily.

But jihad is something we always hear about.

Explain that and define that, if you could.

Yeah, the

Arabic

word

jihad

literally

means,

historically,

mother...

So now that we've sort of gotten some background and definitions

down, how do you respond to the charge

that what we are seeing in an act like Orlando,

Florida, and other places, numerous events that we could cite,

are they the acts of men who are not

only evil men in the sight of God and of the on

-looking world, but are they also evil men in the sight of

authentic Islam?

Have they hijacked Islam, distorted it, twisted it, made it

something that it was never intended to be, or at least an exaggerated form of it?

Or are these people, for the most part, and I know you really do have to take cases

individually, but are many of these atrocities we are hearing about completely in harmony

with what Muhammad would have expected of his disciples were he to

be alive today?

Yeah, I think it all depends, again, on how we define authentic Islam.

How do we define Christianity?

We define Christianity by the lenses of scripture.

Islamic world

view, there are two countries that have

Sharia law, or you're in

what's

called the Dar al -Harb, which is the

abode of war.

You are not living under Sharia law.

That is not under the law of Allah.

It is at war with that country.

And so, in that context, the Muslim has to strive for one thing.

The Quran says that every Muslim, when he migrates, and we don't have time

to go to the Muslim into

infidel lands.

He does not do so.

Every Friday on the day of the specialty of prayer, there is a prayer that the Imam says every single Friday around the

mosques around the globe, where they call on Allah to aid the Mujahideen, which

are the jihad

warriors, so that

his deen

to suck over them,

burning homosexuals, throwing homosexuals.

Hold on a second, Buzz.

I think you're turned down.

Yeah, even in a vigilante sort of way?

Yes, as I pointed out earlier, in the early years of Islam, Muhammad actually appeared

in Paris

with the

Prophet Muhammad.

And so, there are cases where...

Now, since you are in the apologetic world and are frequently actually

in dialogue and discussion and debate with leading

Muslim clerics and apologists, what are they

saying about this?

Are they agreeing that this is indeed a fruit

of obedient Islam that is faithful to the Quran and the

Hadith?

Or are they saying that this is an aberration?

I mean, for the most part, the men that you would confront...

I know that Shabir Ali, some people consider him more on the liberal end of

Islam, but if you could comment about those that you have engaged

in discussion and debate in the apologetic arena.

Well...

Now, what Muslim group is he a member of?

The Crucifixion of Christ is one of them, isn't it?

Exactly. He believes in the Son of God, not die on the cross.

Yeah, they don't even believe he ever was nailed to the cross.

No, no.

I'm not going to hoo him off on that.

But then there are other clerics who will obfuscate.

They will change the subject and say, well, what about the whole Palestinian issue with

the

Israelis

and

that

Israeli

-Palestinian

information from...

Yeah, you're not talking about Jose Cuervo.

You're talking about something completely different.

Right.

I'm not talking about tequila.

With the word at the bottom, I'm talking about an Arabic word,

withhold.

And so the Koran teaches, and some of the greatest scholars of Islam, like Ibn Kathir said,

basically says that

until the Day of Resurrection.

That is, it's right

now in the Senate

in the U .S. that is trying to classify them as a Muslim Brotherhood entity

and to ban them.

Like that, who has links to Hamas.

And they have refused publicly to condemn Hamas.

They will condemn Orlando and all of these others.

Yeah, in fact, it would be then the exact opposite of tequila because when you drink tequila, you tell too many things

that should be hidden.

Well, anyway, I apologize if I'm using humor during a very serious discussion, but I don't think...

No, I'm not a Methodist.

That's okay.

But we're going to take a break right now.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, we do have a couple of people patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered on the air.

We thank you for your patience.

But if you'd like to join them with questions of your own for our guest, Dr. Tony Costa, our email

address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

But if it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we welcome you to do so.

And we are going to be right back with Dr. Tony Costa.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that.

Really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply

not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes biweekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit WNG .org forward slash Iron Sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book.

All free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit World News Group at WNG .org.

Forward slash Iron Sharpens today.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible

translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible

.com.

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every.

Day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere Institute,

a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in

business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thriving Difference.

A new faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thriving Story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

For the last hour and the next hour to come, we have as our guest today Dr. Tony Costa,

and he is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada.

We have been discussing the religion of Islam in light of the

horrific events that occurred in Orlando last Sunday where a

nightclub frequented by homosexuals and apparently a hub of

homosexual activism where leaders in homosexual activism

regularly commune and celebrate and strategize and do all kinds of

things as those who are the movers and shakers in that

movement, no pun intended because it's a nightclub, and these were the

victims.

Obviously, there were probably even heterosexuals among them who were slain

by this very evil person.

So we have a lot to discuss today, and I hope that we could get a good portion of what I

was hoping to address covered in the next hour.

We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, Tyler, who asks, Do you think that

since homosexuality and Islam are both anti -gospel, should we as

Christians view both ideologies as the same as an offense

to the God of the Bible?

That's Tyler in Mastic Beach.

And

there are,

I think one of the reasons why, I don't know, I

can't read Tyler's mind,.

But one of the reasons I would think that that would be an interesting question to bring

about is because of the fact there are mainstream religions,

even those that are considered conservative, that view

Islam as just another pathway to God.

Like, for instance, the Roman Catholic Church in their catechism.

They state clearly in the Roman Catholic catechism, the most recent one, that

Muslims adore the same one true God as we

Christians do.

Now, I even know conservative Roman Catholics who abhor that and

disagree with that very much.

But there are those, though, that would give Islam a

pass because, hey, they are trying to love God as

best as they know how.

That's what they've been raised with.

That's what they've been taught.

And therefore, they're not rejecting God, they're not atheists, we should give them a pass.

But this is repugnant in the sight of God just as homosexuality, even though they're two different

kinds of sins.

Am I right?

Yes,

yes, there has

been publicly

valid and all

-revelatory monotheism.

You know not what you worship and that you needed Him.

Good intentions.

Okay, going back to what we were discussing before the break, are there any respected

Islamic scholars that you have engaged in dialogue or debate with

who affirm and applaud various acts of terrorism around the globe at the

hands of ISIS and others?

Not any that I know, and I think that they wouldn't want to do that in a

Western country being videotaped.

Now, he was arrested, wasn't he?

Isn't he in prison?

He was. He was arrested.

Is he still in prison?

I believe he's been freed, but I think he's in jail for a trial case.

Okay, now I keep bringing up our colleague Dr. White, or your colleague and my friend.

I don't want to put myself on the same pier as you guys.

But he is convinced that a number of the men that he

debates against, who he actually has developed friendships with,

he is convinced, obviously he cannot read their minds or their hearts, he is not Christ,

but he is pretty convinced that a good number of them are not practicing

taqiyah when they are saying that they abhor these kinds of things.

What do you make of that?

I mean, do we always have to have a question mark hovering over our heads when it comes to

relations with Muslims?

Well, my whole issue is, and

I

know

in the Qur 'an, for

they are only friends to one another, and whoever makes friends with them

is what it

says.

But it's very clear that the Islamic sources,

I have met a lot of admirable Muslim apologists, but the question is, if

it's no longer applicable today, then why do women

commit jihad and get

together people like

the Nazi party?

Right.

Many, many Jews against the party rule.

Even a military hero, according to Germany, like

Rommel, he was not in harmony with Hitler's idea.

Right, right.

And to

this day, one of them

has even suggested, I was reading an article, a Muslim writer in the newspaper was saying, why don't we

apply and basically set aside all the violent groups,

a cleric said that, to be

reformed.

Right, and

in many ways, it is like,.

I know that my Roman Catholic friends are going to be highly offended by this comparison, but for instance, I

have moderate to liberal Catholic friends who get very annoyed when I bring up the

Council of Trent's anathemas against me and everybody else who would share the gospel

of the Reformation.

And I say to them, when they get angry with me and consider some of my attitudes

bigoted, because I refuse to embrace them as my brothers in Christ, even if they are my dear

friends, I remind them that I was anathematized centuries ago,

before I was born, by Rome's mandate in Trent.

And they will say, well, we're centuries beyond Trent, a lot has happened since

Trent, we've got Vatican II, our relations with Rome and Protestants

are completely different.

But my point back to them is always, yeah, but that's dogma, Trent is dogma, you cannot

erase what the infallible magisterium has declared and defined as

dogma without the whole system of Rome collapsing.

Once you remove the infallible magisterium and the dogmas it has pronounced and

defined, then there is no Rome, there's no more Roman Catholic Church.

Right.

Because Vatican II kept going back to Trent.

Right, and obviously Vatican II was speaking out of both sides of its mouth, its proverbial mouth,

because they were calling us separated brethren, whereas

Trent was saying that we were clearly not even Christian.

That's right.

So these really confuse issues.

So in the light of this, what we've been discussing so far, I

do want to move on to God's sovereignty in light of horrific events like Sunday.

But your average person, even your average Christian, I mean,

we are called upon to know our Bibles and to study

them and to live by them and to devour the words of Scripture so that

they are living inside of us and ooze out of every pore of our being.

But not all of us have time to become scholars on the religion of Islam.

So when we hear about things like this, when we hear about atrocities being

committed by people shouting Allah Akbar, and excuse me for the

mispronunciation, but people who are identifying themselves as Muslim, who are identifying themselves as ISIS,

what should the response be?

Are we to not say, see this is due to an inherent problem of Islam?

How do we avoid broad brushing and slandering while at the same time revealing and

exposing evil, etc.?

Well, I think we have to come back to the question of, what is the ideology?

And

it's

not,

why is

there,

and so I think we need to ask the question of these

terrorists.

That is what we

have to do.

And well, I think that we should probably move on to another very important

aspect of this discussion.

That is in regard to the sovereignty of God in the midst of

atrocities, in the midst of all kinds of evil we see

taking place around us in the world.

Now, unlike the World Trade Center, where you had

thousands of people, unidentified people, we have no idea about their backgrounds,

what religion they embraced, if any, whether they were faithful to their spouses,

whether they were heterosexual or homosexual.

There was obviously a great mix of people in the World Trade Center and many other

places where mass murders and atrocities have been committed.

Here you have a situation in Orlando, where this nightclub was a well -known

hub of activity for those especially involved

in the sin of sodomy, homosexuality, however you want to phrase it.

And not only that, not just apparently according to the news reports, not only just

a social place of gathering and entertainment and dancing and drinking and enjoying

oneself, it was apparently almost an Orlando headquarters, if you will,

perhaps maybe not even almost, but according to the reporters that I keep hearing, this

was a hub of

thought and strategy and that kind of thing for activism, for

activists who gathered their leaders who publicly identified themselves politically and

socially as leaders of a homosexual movement.

They were using this location as a headquarters of sorts.

And this was the location where this horrific event took place, where a

person identifying himself as Muslim killed over 50 people and wounded over 50

more and would have probably enjoyed to kill everyone in the building.

As Christians, we know that God is in sovereign control over every event that ever occurs.

And this is where, as theologically reformed Christians, we

would be in sharp disagreement with many of our professing brothers and

sisters who would actually say that we are out of our minds or we are in sin to

dare to say that God was involved in some way in this atrocity taking place.

How do you respond to that, Dr. Tony?

Well, what I would say is that God is...

Go ahead.

Oh, yeah.

I think that

these

Galileans were likewise

paralyzed.

Now, one might say, especially a Christian might say, now, wait a minute, I agree with

everything you said, but there is a difference because when you have hurricanes

and floods that have taken the lives of many in Mississippi and

Louisiana and other places in our country and other places in the world

where you have churches being swept away in flood and fire

and you have Christians as well as Muslims and Jews and

homosexuals and all kinds of people altogether perishing,

there is, some would say, there is a difference between that and some place

that is a known headquarters for homosexual activism having

horrific calamity fall down upon it.

How do you respond to that differentiation?

Because there is...

Well,

there is a

difference

between what

is

revealed

to

us

and to

our

children.

Well, what you're saying, would we also not rule out then the possibility that this was a judgment of God?

The bottom line of what you're saying is we simply don't know what God's mind was on this, but

it could have been a judgment, but maybe it wasn't.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah, because the moment we say it was a judgment and let's

say that, I mean, this is the

thing, the scriptures do not address these issues and we're in a

position where Jonathan Edwards warned us that the Almighty, when it comes to

issues...

We're going to be taking our final break and this is your last opportunity to join us on the air with a question.

We do have a couple of people waiting again and we will get to you as soon as possible.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s

-a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And we hope to hear from you soon and we'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine,

my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply

not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wng .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit World News Group at wng .org forward slash

iron sharpens today.

Charles Hedens Pershing once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books

for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can

unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels

of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

Resting in Grace.

You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

That's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org.

Or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Attention coin collectors and investors.

Long Island Galleries of Wading River, New York has brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan

silver dollars for only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited

time.

There's a 40 coin limit, so order now while supplies last.

Call 888 -260 -8111.

888 -260 -8111.

Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express welcome.

Price is subject to change, so call now at 888 -260 -8111.

888 -260 -8111.

If you prefer ordering your brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan silver dollars by check,

mail it today to Long Island Galleries, 9 Susan Drive, Wading River, New York,

11792.

That's Long Island Galleries, 9 Susan Drive, Wading River, New York, 11792.

Remember, they're only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling and a 40 coin limit.

New York State residents must add sales tax.

Long Island Galleries is honored to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest for the last 90 minutes has been Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics at

Toronto Baptist Seminary.

We are discussing the religion of Islam primarily in light of

the tragic events that occurred in Orlando, Florida on Sunday at the hands of an assassin

who took the lives of over 50 people and wounded over 50 more seriously

and then was killed by police.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen

at gmail .com.

C -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

One thing that I would like you to respond to, Dr. Tony, is that

there are definitely going to be differences of opinion on this subject of God's

sovereignty and judgment when it comes to something like this.

There may be brethren in the pews of our own churches who

would disagree and say this is clearly an act of judgment

by God upon an openly and flagrantly wicked people

defiantly rubbing their sin in the faces of the

community around them by even having an establishment, a nightclub dedicated to their

specific depravity in existence and having it being used as even a

headquarters of activist strategy and activity and celebration.

Even if we could grant the fact that there are brethren who are like -minded with us in many ways and who

hold that view, don't you think it's very important, though, that we always

make it clear to the population around us, even those who are practicing

homosexuality, that we don't delight in such events.

We don't have a party and laugh and sing and

celebrate when we hear about people being murdered who

happen to be involved in a very serious sin.

And even though we believe that God is sovereign over the acts of even this

assassin, we don't believe that you could call him

God's man as if he was some kind of a hero fulfilling God's

will.

There are things that we have to make ourselves clear about because, obviously, people jump to conclusions

when we as Christians expose evil acts like

homosexuality as being evil and damnable and, therefore,

they may think that we are wrongly saying that we are very happy that what took place occurred.

And, obviously, we even have to remember that those victims

of that massacre were the sons and daughters

and brothers and sisters and cousins and, perhaps, parents

of people who are grieving, many of whom may even be Christians, grieving

the loss of these loved ones and are even more in despair,

doubting their eternal state because of their activities.

So this is not something we should take glibly by any stretch of the imagination.

Am I right on those counts?

I think you're out of

image -bearers of God.

And so I think we need to be very careful that we do not become, like you said,

over -deserving of that.

And, as you rightly stated, in the Twin Towers in New York City, there were many people there who were brothers

in judgment.

It's very clear in Scripture,

the persecutor, in God's divine counsel, when the

Lord said, Blessed

are you who weep.

I think that weeping should involve weeping for a fallen world, weeping for a

prophet who openly admitted, I am a man of unclean lips.

I think we need to reflect on the fact that we're not for the grace of God.

We're not for the grace of God.

Yes, and wouldn't you say, and it may sound like I'm contradicting something that you said, but I

just maybe want you to clarify it.

Wouldn't you say that there is a sense where they did, those people who perished in that

building, they did deserve it, but we deserve it too?

It's only by grace that we were spared of it?

Well, it's funny, because in that passage

in

Luke 13, 1 -5, when

we're so

vulnerable,

we can be taken out in a conflict.

We are not better than our

enemies.

We do have a question that is actually something that I brought up to Dr. Voti Baucom

in New Jersey.

I was just at a conference over the last weekend.

Reverend Buzz Taylor and I went to a conference that was conducted by Dr. Voti Baucom at

Grace Bible Church in Allenwood, New Jersey, and during a question -answer session, I asked the same question that

our listener today, Harrison, in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

He asks, don't you think that it is irresponsible and actually biblically

incorrect for we Christians to constantly make it

appear as if homosexuality is the exact same thing as every other sin,

when we don't even discipline people that way in the Church, nor did the

nation of Israel discipline everyone the same way in the Old Covenant?

You are not going to have a pastor viewed in the same way if

he is a glutton on occasion at company or church picnics

as you would if he was a child molester.

Obviously, all sins are not the same, and therefore, don't you think it is irresponsible when

Christians discuss homosexuality as being just one of many other sins

and that they are all equal in severity?

Well,

I think

there are

other sexual

sins like

pornography, which is becoming a plague on the Church, affecting pastors, affecting marriages.

I think we need to get tough with adultery and tap to.

Homosexuality is one among many.

It is a sin that God does call an abomination because of

the

tap

and deal with them.

I think we also have to become aware of the fact that people

who may struggle with sin are all under...

Well, one of the things that I brought up to Dr. Baucom, and he agreed with me, is that I

thought that it was very wrong of

Christians, even some conservative Bible -believing Christians, who would very

vocally oppose homosexuality as sin, but in many cases have bought into

the rhetoric of the world and even defined them as the gay community

and described them as if they are an ethnic, racial, or national

group of people that have these

intrinsic qualities to them, rather than the fact that these are individuals who are

committing an unnatural and abominable act of sin.

Don't you think that we are really, perhaps unconsciously, following the lead

of the secular media and the liberal activists who paint homosexuals

in the brush of an ethnic group that deserves equal civil rights and so on,

and that it just defeats the very purpose of identifying it as sin,

and really even makes it appear as if these people are

hopelessly enslaved to that identity until they die, because that's what they are,

rather than as a sin that they're behaving or a sin that they're

conducting or doing?

I think he's absolutely right, and also they have borrowed the language of

all America

under the

Constitution, and now

they're

doing that as

well,

they're calling for the

people who

struggle with pedophilia to be

born that way, they're wired that way,

and now we've got people saying, well, I live in a man's body,

and as you know, in the United States, you have this huge battle with the whole

thing, Chris, is it not that we will allow children to decide their sexual

gender, but we will not allow them to vote, we won't allow them to join the military, we won't allow them to drive a car,

we are...

Yes, in case it went over the heads of some of our listeners, I think what you are touching on

in regard to pedophilia is that it makes sense

if laws are being rewritten that give children the right

to get sexual reassignment surgery, as it has been called, or

some other term that the liberals are using for it.

Gender clarification.

Yes, gender clarification or whatever.

If a child...

Confirmation.

Yes, right, gender confirmation.

If a child is responsible enough to make a decision in that regard, why

shouldn't he have the freedom to make choices in regard to his or her sexual

activity?

And it may include adults.

So therefore, it makes sense that these very twisted and wicked people

who are pushing for the rights of children to get sexual

reassignment or sex change, however you want to describe it, how that would, hand in hand,

tear down any laws prohibiting pedophilia.

And...

It happened with the autonomy laws, it happened with autonomy laws, and if it's happened with them, why can't it happen in this case?

Right.

And we do have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who is asking, what is the

climate in Canada like in regard to Islamic

terror?

Are you as equally fearful as we in the United States are in other places in the globe?

Well, we have a prime minister

terrorist,

a real threat, and in

Ottawa, a

major

threat to

Canada, primarily from Islamic

imams throughout Canada.

I'm not fearful in the sense of.

And Arnie

in Perry County, Pennsylvania,.

Has a similar question for a different matter.

He wants to know, I understand that the laws against hate speech

in Canada are much stricter than the United States, and there are pastors getting fined

a lot of money for speaking out against homosexuality, even just by merely quoting

Bible verses which prohibit these sins without even

mentioning the text themselves, but just the references.

And on billboards and things, they have been fined for this in Canada.

If you could give your own commentary on that issue in your country.

Yes, Mike.

We do have hate crime legislation

communicate to us.

Well, what it communicates to us is that the Bible is slowly becoming

strictly those who speak it.

Yes, isn't it interesting how blind the secular

society and even liberal religious society is to their own

hatred of Christianity, biblical Christianity.

They will condemn us for being intolerant against those

who have different opinions, beliefs, and lifestyles,

and yet they will very often condemn us with even a

more severe form of hatred than we ever express towards them and their own beliefs

and practices.

It's amazing that there seems to be this blinder on where they don't even recognize

how hypocritical they are, and I have to point that out nearly every time I'm in a discussion

with somebody who opposes Christianity, when they accuse Christianity as being a religion of

hate, just like they will say Islam, some of them will say that about Islam,

although you have liberals who ironically will uphold Islam as a beautiful religion and

condemn Christianity as a religion of hate.

It just makes no sense at all when the liberals would be the first one to be marched to the chopping

block if the Muslims had Sharia law in this country and other places.

But anyway, if you could comment on the blinders it seems that the world around us...

You'll notice, Chris and Reverend Buzz, you'll notice that the people who claim to be the most tolerant in

your country and my country are the most intolerant.

They went out of their way,

what we call cultural Marxism, where

Christianity...

And I guess you, I'm assuming you would agree with me, that we have, as Christians,

we have to control our rage in our righteous indignation,

even though we are very right to have righteous indignation.

That's why it's called righteous indignation.

But we have to put a control switch on it because we have to constantly be reminded that

they are called the lost for a reason.

They are blind and deaf to the truth.

They are demonstrating that they are not sheep

who hear Christ's voice until that time that they become regenerate and begin following Him.

We can identify them as being outside of the flock and therefore they don't have

the God -given insight that we have and vision that we have and ears that we have

because we have only received them by God's grace ourselves because He performed heart surgery

on us out of His own kindness, grace, and mercy and has not done so

with them at least yet.

So, don't we have to constantly remind ourselves to be more patient in our reaction?

Absolutely, because

they're acting...

And I'm going to

go five minutes over.

Because of the fact that we went off the air unintentionally for reasons that

we don't know.

I'm going over five minutes today and even if we go off the air

before that five minutes begins I am still recording it.

So, basically, right now I would definitely want you, Dr. Tony,

to summarize everything that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners today.

Regarding the subject and perhaps even after that if you would,

please conclude with a special word to the families of the victims of that

atrocity and also the surviving victims who may eventually

hear this recording.

You never know within God's sovereignty how this program might wind up

within earshot of someone who is an actual surviving victim or the

parent or sibling or child of someone who perished in

that nightclub on Sunday.

If you could, Dr. Koenig.

Right.

In fact, we need to distinguish between Islam and Muslims.

Ah, that's great!

I love that!

I never heard that before.

Yeah, and I do.

I love Muslims and I'm calling on my brothers and sisters in Christ out there.

And therefore, it's not Islamophobia the term

Islamophobia

the

phobia

by deafened

family

members.

Amen.

And I know that the website for Toronto Baptist Seminary is tbs

.edu.

That's tbs .edu.

Do you have any other contact information?

Well, if you'd like my...

That's W -E -B as in boy S as in Sam dot com.

Correct.

TonyCosta .webs .com.

Well, Dr. Tony Costa, as always, it has been a great privilege and honor to

have you as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron.

I eagerly look forward to having you come back on the program.

I eagerly look forward to having you fly out here to the Carlisle, Pennsylvania area

to conduct debates, to conduct conferences and other kinds of speaking engagements.

Our listeners may be delighted to know that we are in the process of arranging a debate

between Dr. Costa and a noted Roman Catholic apologist right here in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania on the subject of the sinlessness of Mary.

So, we hope that the Lord enables us to arrange

that and we hope that as many of you listening can attend that.

And so, Dr. Costa, thank you so much and we can't wait to have you back.

And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless.