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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. It is really super late at night right now, actually early in the morning. I'm going to post this actually in less than six hours now on Tuesday, but I wanted to get this to you.
I've been thinking about this for the last few days and really the purpose of this is just to relate to you and maybe you can relate to me too in the comments or something, but I don't have a huge points I'm making, but it, I could have titled this many different things.
Gospel coalition versus, um, country music, uh, populism versus elitism, uh, could have said maybe even Puritanism versus patriotism. Some of you are scratching your heads on that one and I don't have time to explain that, but, uh, there's many different ways of approaching what I'm about to talk about, but it's, I don't so much want to make an argument to you as I do want to just relay an emotion or a series of emotions cause there's sadness, there's anger, there's also thankfulness and joy and they're all kind of, and there's probably more than that, but they're all wrapped up into kind of one confusing ball and this 4th of July just felt off.
And I think many of you felt the same way. Some of you have been feeling this way for years, but this one especially probably felt the most off. And I want to help dive into that a little, maybe flesh that out.
Why does it feel off to you? And we're not going to answer all those questions, but I want you to know that there's other people who feel the same way you do. In fact, it might even be a majority. A lot of people feel this way and I want to give you some encouragement.
So we're going to start with this. I saw Ryan Heffelbein, the director of the Freedom Center at Liberty University. He posted these screenshots from Gospel Coalition and basically asking the question, look, I hate idolatry, but I don't conflate knowing and following Jesus with patriotic sentiment towards this country.
And I've seldom met a pastor who did. And he's kind of like, Gospel Coalition, what are you talking about with all these posts against patriotism or seemingly against the country on the 4th of July? This is like, you're in the car, you're driving to your son's birthday party or your friend's birthday party and everyone in the car is there to celebrate the birthday party.
On the way, you're saying, look, we don't want to idolize little junior. We don't want to idolize birthdays. Birthdays, you say, what are you talking about? Talk about this some other time. Right now, this is the celebration time.
Why are you pouring cold water on our celebration? And that's what the Gospel Coalition did over the weekend. And I want to show you just some, because I took some screenshots of their Twitter feed myself.
And I thought, this is amazing, because I thought at first, you know, Ryan must be taking some screenshots from years past. And no, these were all from leading up to the 4th of July, like July 3rd and July 4th, all these posts.
Should we celebrate the 4th of July at church is the name of the article. Here's the quote, when we celebrate patriotic holidays and church services, we risk working against the Great Commission. Yeah, working against the Great Commission.
That's one of the most serious charges you can make. People aren't going to be disciples. You can't make disciples and celebrate the 4th of July in church. I mean, and ask this question, you know, I've been to a lot of churches.
In fact, I was at a church that sang God Bless America this last Sunday. I never once got confused and thought, well, you know, this is clearly, they're worshiping America now, and they're confusing what it means to be a disciple of Jesus with a disciple of Uncle Sam or something like that.
No, I mean, people, in general, I think know what it means when you want God to bless America. They know what it means if a church hosts a firework celebration and brings the public in. They also usually know what it means when the church celebrates things like Mother's Day or Thanksgiving.
I mean, this is, it's just an interesting thing for the Gospel Coalition to do. They don't do this for Black History Month, for LGBTQ Pride Month. They don't do this for MLK Day. They don't do this for TGC Canada, you know, or TGC Australia.
Those Gospel Coalition websites aren't casting all sorts of doubt on whether or not you should celebrate patriotic holidays in those countries. It's just the United States that they do this in. And you have to ask yourself, why?
Why do they do this? Why are they obsessed at the Gospel Coalition with America? Because they're more obsessed with the Fourth of July than I think the average Christian is. The patriotic average Christian who just goes to church and wants to wave his flag and see some fireworks, the Gospel Coalition is thinking a whole lot more about the Fourth of July than that person is.
And yet they're accusing that person of idolatry or insinuating that they might be idolatrous or the Great Commission is, it's just, this is just weird to me. It's just so out of touch, so disconnected from reality.
I mean, people right now, if anything, are noticing that there's a shift going on, a massive one, and patriotism is on the decline. And it's in this decline that the Gospel Coalition wants to come alongside and make it, I guess, decline further by pouring cold water on those who want to somehow keep elements of celebrating America's ideals, heroes, values, etc.
Here's another one. Does American patriotism have a place in a worship service? That's the name of the article. Should churches incorporate patriotic elements into their worship services? To answer that question, we must first answer, what exactly is the local church?
Here's another one. Why younger evangelicals may feel uneasy in a patriotic church service. Taking pride in one's hometown or the beauties of one's homeland should not be seen as a betrayal of God's kingdom, but a foretaste of the future, when God's kingdom will indeed come on earth as in heaven.
Now listen, that sounds good, but I reject it. And for this reason, taking pride in my hometown or the beauties of my homeland is a temporal thing. Yes, it comes from an eternal God who created it, whose beauty is everlasting.
But it's set in time. It's tangible. It's set in place. It's filled up my senses. It's for a moment in time. I would never say this about, you know, you think about your homeland, okay, I've never say this about my home itself, you know, the home that I grew up in, you know, well, it's only really worth it if I can somehow connect that to God's kingdom and the foretaste of the future.
No, it's not actually, I don't have to push everything through this grid of whether or not it's, it attaches itself to the heavenly kingdom. There's some good temporal things that God's put here and moments and memories and beauty that comes with those things.
And I just, this is, you know, if this is your way of trying to justify a little ounce of patriotism, this is no, this is not necessary. And it's no way to go through life. If that's what you're, if that's the grid you're applying to everything, by the way, here's another one.
American Christians are tempted by many forms of idolatry and many of them start with good things. Patriotism, family, work that become ultimate commitments, Thomas Kidd, Christian nationalism versus Christian patriotism.
Well, look, here's the thing, sure. Can anything become an idol if you worship it and ascribe elements of deity to it? I mean, Romans 1, right? Worshipping creatures instead of the creator, elements of the creation, yeah, sure.
But I would like to point out something. These things, patriotism, family, and work are all good things in the eyes of God. These are all, there's nothing evil about those things, in fact, they're natural things that God has created and ordained.
Patriotism comes from patera, it's honoring your father, it's sort of an extension of the fifth commandment. These are very good things. So can good things become idolatrous? Yes, they can. But why would you post it on the third of July?
You know, simmer down, guys, don't set off too many fireworks, don't sing too many patriotic songs or don't display too many flags. I mean, you know, it's like, I understand, but when you're going to celebrate something very important, like someone's birthday, you're not like, now listen, you know, we're celebrating Bob's birthday, but we've got to realize, you know, Bob isn't really as good as we all think, or don't celebrate it too much.
I mean, there's an assumption behind this that there's a great problem in America with celebrating America too much in the Church. And this is what I want to challenge you guys with. Maybe it exists somewhere, but where?
And this is from the same website that was promoting masks in church, not singing, lockdowns, getting your vaccine because Caesar said so. And apparently that's not idolatry of the state. But you know, if you take your patriotism a little too far, love your family a little too much, guys, I want you to see the hypocrisy of this.
Here's another one. If pastors think America is becoming an idol for their people, why would they include the trappings of this false God in their worship services? Okay, what the false God is America, I guess it's an American flag with a cross on it.
Okay, so are really what service is this? I've been to a lot of churches and I've been to patriotic services at churches. It's never been confusing to me. And I don't think it's confusing for most people, unless you think America is God and ascribe elements of deity to it, you're not going to have that problem.
Now, are there places that have, here's the thing, the modern state can become this. And this is where gospel coalition is so hypocritical because of what I just mentioned about vaccines and shutdowns, et cetera, obey Caesar, obey Caesar, obey Caesar.
And the Caesar is the modern state and Caesar has control over your entire life and just runs roughshod over all the other authorities in your life that God's also ordained. That's sort of what the gospel coalition has promoted.
If you don't think, and conservatives who are patriotic generally don't think of the state that way, when they celebrate America, they're not celebrating the government generally, and they're not looking at it as this all powerful answer to every question.
That's more of the progressive side. So it's kind of an empty, I mean, did you speak to anyone in this article? Yeah, maybe three people were touched by this, but no, not really. And it's such a disconnect from the way people actually feel right now.
If anything, I mean, when you've gone through a year of flags being burned and cities being destroyed and monuments coming down, this is one of the last things you would want to post, you'd think. Here's another one.
For as many more years as you give us as a nation, may we be a land where the truth of Christ is known and the good news of Christ is sent out, a prayer for America on Independence Day. Now that sounds like a great prayer.
I haven't read the whole thing, but again, I just want to emphasize there are good things about the country that are not directly connected to the Great Commission or the gospel. And certainly without the gospel, we wouldn't have the United States.
But I've just noticed some gospel coalition types trying to go through life connecting everything to the gospel so that everything becomes a gospel issue. And that's the grid they must use. It's very stressful to live that way.
And it's just some things are just virtuous and good because they reflect the character of the creator. They're virtuous. Here's another one. If people unfamiliar with Christianity attended the service, what would they think we worship?
They think we worship God and they think we also are proud to be Americans. That's what they'd think in most patriotic worship services, I think. And then they posted an article that might be good, a sermon that helped push the colonies towards independence.
And it's a historical little article, but it's kind of neutral, I guess, on whether celebrating the 4th of July or not, there's really nothing here that's like pro-America celebrate the 4th of July. So yeah, that's gospel coalition.
Now I wanted to mention this. I, about a week ago, had a conversation with an Eastern Orthodox priest. I'm not an expert on Eastern Orthodoxy. I've been to Istanbul. I've been to the Hagia Sophia. It's a mosque now, but when it wasn't, I'd been to the big church in Istanbul that is still an active Greek Orthodox church.
I have a lot of friends, not close ones, but I do have friends who have converted Eastern Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism and Southern Baptist denominations because, I think because Evangelicalism reinvented itself every 10 years and they were attracted to the quote unquote tradition, the stability in that, the smells and bells.
I have disagreements with Eastern Orthodoxy. In fact, with this priest, I talked about, we talked about original sin. We talked about total depravity. We talked about whether or not Jesus was the only way to heaven.
We disagreed on all three of those. One of the things he said though, and this was the thing I wanted to highlight that was interesting is that he kind of nonchalantly, and I think because he's reading liturgies and prayers and he's sort of living in this world from hundreds of years ago, thousands of years ago, he kind of has this long view.
He said, yeah, America's just like, kind of like the Roman Empire. We're just experiencing the final stage before the country dies. Breakdown of family, art becomes more bombastic and just entertainment is violent, those kinds of things.
And I, you know, I thought he's nonchalant about this and maybe he doesn't feel the connection I do, but I feel the connection. I'm an American and I have this sense that the country is falling too. And I think a lot of us have that.
And this is what I wanted to relate, getting back to that, to relating. Gospel coalition is detached. They don't relate. But we all have this feeling, I think, that there's something very wrong in the country and it has something to do with the country falling.
And we feel like we're living in it. But more than that, Western civilization in general is falling. And I think that, I mean, we're talking thousands of years of Christian civilization, Western civilization, and it's coming down.
And I'll give you an example of this. One example, there probably are thousands. I probably don't even notice most of them. I was at a play this last week, the second play I think I've ever been to in my life.
A friend of mine invited me to a Shakespeare play and it was Henry V. I went to Stanton, Virginia. They have a Shakespeare playhouse. And really, this is the thing I thought. It was an anti-Shakespeare play.
It wasn't a Shakespeare play because the characters were mismatched. They would cast people, you know, and I know there's a tradition going back in doing plays. Sometimes men will play girls' roles, girls will play boys' roles, et cetera.
So male, female roles can be interchangeable sometimes. But I just got the sense they were doing it on purpose in this. Males playing certain roles, females playing certain roles that they shouldn't be.
And then even ethnically-wise, it was very purposeful, I think, who they made certain characters, characters that wouldn't fit, characters that felt just like you shouldn't cast that person in that role if you're trying to be true to the play, cast them in a different role.
But they had to, for the sake of diversity, equity, inclusion, I guess, do it the way they did it. The costumes, I want to say grunge, but grunge isn't even the word. They were confusing. They were dirty.
They were grungy to some extent. They were mismatched on purpose. They were just, they were the weirdest costumes I think I've ever seen in a play, ever. And this was a Shakespeare play, this was Henry V.
And I realized when I walked out, after everyone, you know, clapped just about, my friend and I did, well, I did clap a little, but I was kind of like trying to just, sympathy clap almost, because it was Shakespeare lines, but they threw in even some of their own modern lines.
They tried to make Henry V out to be slightly gangster. It was unusual. And I thought, this was an anti-Shakespeare play. This is deconstructing Shakespeare. This is not honoring William Shakespeare.
This is actually an attempt to kind of, make fun is too, it's not strong enough of a phrase. It's more than just making fun. It's deconstructing. It is turning Shakespeare on its head. It is a deep type of mockery that shows little value, if any, it actually shows the opposite of value.
It shows a devaluing of Shakespeare. And this is what we've been going through. This is why I think we feel off so often. This is why I think I felt off during the 4th of July. There's, it's like from the Gospel Coalition, this is anti-patriotism we're getting from the Gospel Coalition.
We're getting the opposite of what we feel like we should be getting so often. And it feels off. We go to church sometimes. If you go to a church that's on the social justice bandwagon, especially, it feels like anti-church.
Let's just deconstruct Christianity. It's not with an attitude of making it better. It's with an attitude of deconstructing it. And so I wanted to read for you, this is Psalm 137, and I think there's some relatable things in this.
It says, By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea, we wept when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song, and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth. If I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy, remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem, who said, Raise it, raise it, even the foundation, to the foundation thereof.
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed, happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Now, there is plenty in that psalm to ruffle the feathers of a gospel coalition type.
But what I wanted to focus on is the fact that this is about singing the songs of a place of yearning for this place that's been destroyed. Singing these songs in a foreign land. How many of you felt that way over the weekend, that you're singing these patriotic songs, you're hearing patriotic songs, you're doing patriotic things, but it doesn't even feel like you're in America doing it.
It's not the America you remembered. And it's like the ground under you just kind of changed. You didn't move, but everything else did. And you're in a strange land and you're thinking, how can I sing this song?
Now look, I'm not equating in every way Israel with the church, of course not. But this was written for today. There is an application for today, I should say. And there is a relatability we have with this, I believe.
And the gospel coalition types would look at this. If you said this about the United States, they'd say, what are you talking about? You're worshiping, you're committing idolatry, you think Jerusalem is so great and you should never forget her and you want her enemies destroyed.
And that's what they would say. But this is in the Bible. This is appropriate, this is natural to love one's own place, to want to honor that place, to have songs associated with place, to want what's best for it, to want to see the enemies of that place destroyed.
These are normal things, guys. It's in the Bible right here and it's relatable. And I want to ask, where's the gospel coalition? Where's these big evangelical blogs and ministries on? There's nothing.
And this is another thing that feels off. We feel isolated and alone because everyone's clapping when Henry V ends. And it was a terrible play. And everyone thinks it was great and we feel that way. But I think deep down inside, most of us know, even those who are clapping, we know there's something wrong.
And people who go to church who see what's happening in their ministries, they know there's something wrong. And we are not getting the attitude of Psalm 137, which is what we need right now. We're not getting it from big evangelical organizations or ministries or even probably your local church.
Let me tell you where you are getting it, though. This is interesting to me. Within about a day of each other, July 2nd and July 1st, three songs were posted, all from country music artists. And they're all in preparation, I think, for the 4th of July, certainly the Toby Keith one is.
I'm going to read for you the lyrics from them. And I'm going to cut out some of the just warning, especially with Aaron Lewis, Am I the Only One? There's some profanity in it. All very touching songs.
You may cry. But I'm going to just for the sake of if you have kids in the car or whatever, I'm going to I'm going to read them. I'm going to substitute some of my own words here. But let me let me give you some of the lyrics to these songs here.
We'll start with Aaron Lewis. Am I the Only One? Am I the only one here tonight shaking my head and thinking something ain't right? Is it just me? Am I losing my mind? Am I standing on the edge of the end of time?
Am I the only one? Tell me I'm not who thinks they're talking all the good we got, taking taking all the good we got and turning it bad. I think I'm turning it into my old man. Am I the only one willing to bleed or take a bullet for being free?
Screaming what's on my TV for telling me, yeah, are you telling me that I'm the only one willing to fight for my love of the red and the white and the blue burning on the ground? Another statue coming down in a town near you watching the threads of old glory come and done?
Am I the only one? Am I the only one not brainwashed, making my way through the land of the lost, who still cares and worries about his kids as they try to undo all the things he did? And it goes on with choruses and bridges, etc.
But the point of this, it's very similar to Psalm 137. You have this sort of this lamentation about what's happened to the place that he loves. He's worried about his children. He feels like it's the end of time.
He's looking at the destruction, monuments coming down. You also have this song by Toby Keith called Happy Birthday America. It's the 4th of July. I get to wake up in your freedom, but sometimes I wonder why.
Seems like everyone's, what word am I going to use for this, going to the bathroom on the red, white, and blue. Happy Birthday America, whatever's left of you. You were the darling when you saved the world, World War I and II.
France would just be part of Germany now if it hadn't been for you. Now your children want to turn you into something other than yourself. They burn your flag in their city streets more than anybody else.
Who are they going to count on when you're not there to take their call? Will the world keep right on spinning without the greatest of them all? Without the helping hand of God, your days are numbered, my old friend.
We're sure going to miss you, girl. You were the best that's ever been. All the broken down cities by the left's design and the right can't seem to get it right most of the time. Every time I go to town and vote, I just come home with the blues, the lesser of two evils, all we ever get to choose.
Happy Birthday America. This is a depressing song, but this is also a lament, just like Psalm 137. Are you getting this from Christians? How much better would this be if it was written by someone who was really steeped in Christianity?
But it's left to these popular country music singers to do this kind of thing. Here's a last one for you. This is Riley Green, That's My Dixie. There's folks out there that'll judge a man by the color of his skin.
There's still a fight over wrong and right that no one ever wins. I know somewhere there's hate out there, but don't hold that against me, because that ain't my Dixie. So he's right off the bat saying, look, I know there's racism, and he said no one ever wins.
BLM, they're not an option. They're not going to win. There's no such thing as anti-racism. There's always going to be some kind of bigotry, but he's like, that's not what Dixie is. And this is one of the things about America and the South, that's not what's fundamental to these areas, to the things that people love about these things.
It's not like they love, well, we just love the historical racism associated with segregation. No, or whatever. He lists some of them here. He loves, it's homemade pies in Georgia pines, old bird dogs in Spanish moss, it's mama's teas, that's way too sweet, it's come on in and have a seat, yeah, that's my Dixie.
He talks about, let's see, in the chorus, he says, look, it's who I am, I care about the ones who came before me, the broken part of the Southern heart, that's more than just old glory. It's a state of mind as deep and wide and as strong as the Mississippi.
We sing amazing grace and curse the heat, yeah, that's my Dixie. Nowadays, you just can't believe what you see on the news, round here, we ain't just black and white, because we're all red, white, and blue.
They're turning these tables on us. They're turning these towns into battlegrounds, and that don't sit well with me, because that ain't my Dixie. So what he's talking about is the monuments coming down again, turning these towns into battlegrounds.
He's saying that you're putting a wedge between us by inserting race into every conversation, and racism, and that there's oppression and stuff. That when we say we have pride in the South, in Dixie, and in who we are as a people, we're not saying that we like everything that's happened.
We're not saying we like segregation. We're not saying, but these are the things that the left makes fundamental to America and to the South, that if you celebrate these regions, your home, your people, that that must be your celebration, and that must be what you really mean.
And look, I'm trying to get, in fact, I'll put the link in the info section, I'm trying to raise funds to make this documentary about the monuments, because I think this is a big issue. This is about identity, it's about character, it's about who gets to define what these things mean.
The authors of them, the people that they came from, or those ideologues who come later on and just make connections all over the place, even when they don't exist, to oppression somehow, so that they can then deconstruct and revolutionize the society.
So, that's really all I had for you guys. I hope that was, I was going to say encouraging, but I do mean that, I do, I actually do think this is encouraging, even though it's negative in a sense. Just knowing that you're not alone is important.
And I just want you to know, I see what you're seeing. I know that you're not understood, most of you, by the parachurch organizations that you used to read, the blogs, Christian Radio, sometimes your local church.
I understand it's not just in those categories as well, it's probably your workplace. It's just about everywhere you turn, you don't feel like you belong in some ways, and you feel like you're just an American.
Why as an American do you feel like you don't belong? And I don't have a long-winded answer to explain all of that. I don't have a deep explanation for all of this. But I do know that you're not alone, and that many of us feel the same way.
So if I can encourage you at all, there is precedent in scripture as well to feel the way that you do. I hope that at least helps you out a little bit. Now there are some positive things going on today.
I should mention this, Nini's Deli opens up in Chicago. If you're coming back from the 4th of July, you're passing by Chicago, maybe you want to consider going in and getting yourself an empanada from Juan Riesco at Nini's Deli.
It is opened up again, and anyway, there's a lot more coming this week. We're going to talk about what's happening in Canada, because it's kind of insane. We're going to talk about Nini's Deli. We're going to talk about what I've been writing.
I've been writing a lot lately. There's a lot going on. But anyways, God bless, and until next time.