July 2, 2018 Show with Jason Wallace on “An Earnest Plea to Roman Catholics”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this second day of July 2018.

And we are delighted to have as our returning guest today, Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, which is a congregation in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, also known as the OPC. He is a producer of a number of documentary videos meant for evangelizing

Mormons and Roman Catholics and homosexuals and their advocates. And today we are going to be discussing one of those documentaries, an earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

We're also going to be promoting an event that's being held this this

Friday, July 6th, at the Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.

This is a debate between Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is an evangelical

Protestant and Reformed Baptist, to be more specific, and a Mormon named

Alma Olred. And there will be actually a conference that whole weekend following on the 7th and 8th.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jason Wallace. Chris, it's always a privilege.

I'm going to give our email address out right away so people have time to write in questions immediately at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, Pastor Jason, since some of our listeners, and we seem to be getting new listeners every day, that's not an exaggeration, since many of them may be totally unfamiliar with you and the

Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, why don't you tell our listeners about this wonderful congregation there out in the suburbs of Salt Lake City?

Thanks, Chris. We started 20 years ago from scratch. We're Bible -believing

Presbyterians, and we're a remnant of the Old Northern Presbyterian Church, and we're here in the

Salt Lake Valley. We're about, oh, I think it's about nine miles from downtown

Salt Lake in the temple. We're in the northwest portion of the valley here, of the

Salt Lake Valley, and we've been engaged in outreach since we started.

We did book tables, then we started doing debates with James White, and when he couldn't make it, we kept doing debates.

We've done a couple dozen over the years. Then that led to a television show for seven and a half years called

The Ancient Path, and that was on a local UHF station here, and they sold the station three years ago, and we started making evangelistic videos for YouTube, and we started with an earnest plea to Latter -day

Saints, and in the first two years, we've had over a hundred thousand views of that, and people have said that it's helped lead them out of Mormonism to the biblical

Jesus, and we've got eight videos at lds .video,

it's the website, and then because homosexuality is such a big thing for people who come out of Mormonism, they tend to go to atheism, the mayor of Salt Lake City is an open lesbian who flies the rainbow flag from City Hall.

That's amazing that a place like Utah could have that happen. That's just totally amazing to me.

Mormonism's coming apart, or at least the old Mormonism is, and so I've been told,

I don't know that it's true, but it's at least within the realm of possibility that there are more homosexuals per capita in Salt Lake City proper than in San Francisco proper.

Wow, who would have guessed that? Well, it's big. She defeated basically an

Al Gore -style Democrat in a two -way race, and she's more of a

Bernie Sanders -type Democrat. And then so we've got gaychristian .video

with an earnest plea to gay Christians, and then Saturday afternoon we released an earnest plea to Roman Catholics, and it's also on YouTube, but the easy way to reach it is just www .romancatholic

.video. Praise God, and now I'll let our listeners know about this exciting event that you are having this coming

Friday, July 6th, out there in Magna, Utah at Christ Presbyterian Church between Dr.

James R. White and Alma Olred. Well, James has been doing debates for us for about 18 years off and on, and he has been...

we're a small congregation. I think the total Protestant population nominally in Salt Lake County is about 4%, so I mean, we're a small congregation.

James has been over backwards to be good to us. He's done debates. Alma Olred is someone he met actually 30 years ago when he used to come to town to give out tracts and evangelize at General Conference twice a year, and Alma is probably the best -read

Mormon I've ever met in my life. I interviewed him I think 14 times over the seven and a half years we had the

TV show. We would have him on to discuss various things, and James...

we actually arranged a dialogue with him and James two or three years ago now at the

University of Utah, and this one is going to be, is

Mormonism true? And essentially Alma's got his three best arguments for it, and James has got his three best arguments against it, and they're going to dialogue over that.

It's essentially an informal debate. It's not a liberal style dialogue where everybody sits around and talks about all the things they have in common.

It's over the issue that Alma says the LDS Church is true. It's the only true and living

Church on the face of the earth. I think I reversed it. They call it living and true church on the face of the earth.

We say no, it's not true at all. It's a counterfeit. Well as I told

Dr. White when I interviewed him last Friday, I was surprised that you would get a representative of the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints in 2018 to be defending that thesis that they are the one true church in light of the fact that their public relations has totally reversed in that regard, at least from what

I have experienced even here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where there are a lot of Mormons roaming around, a lot of Mormon missionaries evangelizing, and I've bumped into them in the streets a few times, and they had a robotic rehearsed statement to me, and I'm paraphrasing because I didn't record it or write it down, but it was something very similar to, you have probably heard that the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints thinks they're the one true church, but that is not true.

We are just another Christian denomination just like you are, and I was taken aback by hearing that, and I told him, do you realize how new and novel that concept is amongst the

Mormons? I mean the guy was in his early 20s, he looked, the two guys actually, but I'm surprised, and I'd be shocked if they didn't know, because they're old enough to know that that wasn't always the spiel, as we say in New York.

Yeah, they have changed radically. I mean, it used to be that Bruce R.

McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine, was a standard for any missionary, and that's now been allowed to go out of print, because they don't want to be nailed down to anything.

You know, they used to be very clear, we're the only living and true church on the face of the earth. That doesn't sell so well in 21st century

America, and so they they come at things very differently, and it's much more warm and fuzzy, and the, you can see in terms of the

Boy Scouts, the Mormons sponsor something like, I want to say, 35 % of all the Boy Scout troops in the world, and they wanted to, if they had wanted to, they could have vetoed what the

Boy Scouts have done over the last few years, but they didn't. They're afraid to offend anybody, it seems, and so they stayed in the

Scouts initially, but then now they are essentially pulling their older youth out of the

Scouts entirely. The Mormons got a lot of blowback after Proposition 8 passed in California.

They were very big behind that, and I think they were just stunned at the negative response from the homosexual community.

You had people marching in the streets, mocking the Mormon Church, all these various things, and they did a real about -face and actually started promoting first local ordinances that then turned into state law, with them very openly supporting any prohibition against any discrimination in housing and employment based on sexual orientation or identity.

And they gave a lot of money to the Pride Center, and they've done all kinds of things to try to build bridges.

They don't know who they are anymore, and yet there are some true believers, like Alma Allred, that to some extent, like Catholics, the

Church is true, even if Pope Francis is contradicting everything that's gone before. One of the things that I wanted to ask you,

I've been dying out of curiosity because James did not clarify whether he was just joking or not during the

Divine Lime, he was certainly joking about Alma Allred being one of the three

Nephites. I know that he was joking about that, but he did say that when he went to one of the major gatherings of the

LDS Church, I don't know if he called it the General Assembly or what it was, but he said, this was many years ago, he said there were three men walking around with beards and robes claiming to be the 2 ,000 year old remaining

Nephites. Can you explain that? Were these men being serious or were they doing it somewhat like somebody would dress like a character at a pageant of some kind or some kind of a fair or whatever?

Like for instance, if you had some kind of 1517 anniversary, 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation celebration, you might have a guy walking around looking like Luther, but were these guys serious or are they just dressing to be a part of the entertainment at this event?

Having lived in Utah for 20 years and I first visited here 30 years ago,

I've learned that nothing's outside the realm of possibility. I think he was serious.

He was describing... Or they were serious. You mean you thought James White was serious? Yeah, and that they were serious as well, because I mean, it's a zoo down there during conference.

I mean, it used to be that James, and we would go help him some, it used to be that you could hand out tracts and you could have nice conversations with people, and it was respectful.

I mean, this is how he met Elma. And this is what event, actually? General Conference. It's a twice a year, semi -annual conference that the

LDS Church has, and typically you have the Prophet and the Apostles and other people in the church make presentations and essentially give you a sense of what's the direction for the next six months.

And they'll deal with various themes, you know, they'll deal with sexuality, they'll deal with, you know, growth of the church.

It's where big announcements are made, such as when they reduced the age for missionaries from 19 to 18.

They'd love to announce new temples being built in various parts of the world and things like that. And so it's a big get -together, everyone comes in their

Sunday best, and they go to these sessions of General Conference.

And so you've got thousands and thousands of Mormons standing around, and James used to come up and share the gospel.

Well, what he was describing predates me, but I've seen people from the

Parowan Prophet, which is down in southern Utah. This was a guy who was claiming that he had the true continuing church, that the church in Salt Lake was apostate, and I think they were predicting a big earthquake for about 15, 16, 17 years ago, something like that, that was going to destroy the church office building and destroy the temple and show that God had rejected this and that and the other.

You got folks here that really do convince themselves they are folks like the three

Nephites. I mean, you got to do a lot of convincing to believe that you are yourself over 2 ,000 years old.

I mean, come on, there's got to be a knowable, or should I say, they've got to be knowingly trying to deceive people when they are claiming that.

Utah has people who can convince themselves of just about anything. Do you think the average

Mormon thinks, but by the way, why don't you explain what we're even talking about as far as these Nephites are concerned, and my second question would be, would your average

Mormon just think that they are nuts or charlatans, or how would they view those people? Yeah, the three

Nephites are of the 12 disciples

Jesus had here, and they wanted to live forever, or live until he came back, and basically they're supposed to still be alive.

The 12 apostles that Jesus chose for the North American continent? Right, if I'm remembering correctly.

I'm a little fuzzy on the three Nephites, honestly, but your average

Mormon would think these guys are nuts, they're schismatic, and yet at the same time, your middle -of -the -road, faithful, professional

Mormon often believes other things, such as one story that you'll hear over and over and over.

Somebody goes, especially young women, they go to the temple to be baptized by proxy for a dead person, and they're given this list of, like, ten names, and as they dunk them under the water, they believe they see these spirits around the baptismal font.

It's made to look like the Bronze Sea in Solomon's Temple, it's got the oxen under it and all, and so when they dunk them under the water, they have this vision of these spirits, and as the name is called and they're dunked under, they see the spirits smile and disappear, and then they say, we're through, and one will say, or the person will still see the spirit that just starts crying uncontrollably, and it's like, please check the list, we missed someone, we missed someone, and then they go down the list, it's like, you're right, we did, and they baptize, and then that person smiles and goes away.

I related this in a church in California, there was a former Mormon there, and she jumped up out of her pew, and she's shaking her finger, she said, if I heard that once,

I heard it a thousand times, and you have people who claim that dead relatives have appeared to them and told them the church is true.

So on the one hand, the three Nephites would probably would have been dismissed by 99 .999

% of all the Mormons, but only because they're not within the context that the

LDS Church tells them is appropriate. Yeah, in fact, they, don't most

Mormons who are theologically and religiously knowledgeable about their faith, they believe though, even if they believe that those specific three guys were fake, they believe though that the three

Nephites are living somewhere in the United States, and they are over 2 ,000 years old.

Oh yeah, and the Apostle John's somewhere out there as well, maybe not within the bounds of the United States, but he's still alive somewhere too.

Yeah, amazing. Well anyway, I don't want to preoccupy our entire show. I just thought it was fascinating when

I was hearing James explain that, and like he does with many things on the dividing line, there are certain in -house things that he talks about that only he and maybe a handful of his friends know what he's talking about, and he doesn't explain what's going on, so I was left wondering about that.

Well, tell us about this conference, the full -blown conference that James will be having that includes the debate starting this

Friday. Well, basically the opening night at 7 o 'clock,

James will be dialoguing with Alma, and then the second night he's going to talk about God's providential preservation of his word in the

Bible, and this will be a nice follow -up to that, and then he's going to be speaking. The theme of the conference is

God has spoken, and then James is going to be teaching Sunday school and then preaching

Sunday morning for us, and then Sunday evening we're having a special service as well. And typically when he's in town, we have a number of other churches join us for the evening service, and then we have a covered dish or a potluck meal that follows, and so it's a nice three -day weekend event.

Well, if anybody wants more information about this, we will be, God willing, repeating this information throughout the broadcast, but the website for Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah is

GospelUtah .org. GospelUtah .org. Utah is spelled out, it's not abbreviated, so we hope that if, especially if you live within traveling distance to Utah, that you attend this event.

And I'm assuming this is free? Everything's free. Great. If you want to come to the covered dish, it'd be nice if you bring something, but yeah, it's all free.

Great. Well, I want to move on now to the main theme that we are addressing today, and that is your new video, an earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

It's obviously something near and dear to my heart, being a former Roman Catholic, having parents that were

Roman Catholic. My father was a convert from Episcopalianism to Roman Catholicism when

I was a teenager, but my mother was a born and raised Roman Catholic, her parents were Roman Catholic from Poland, and thanks be to God, God gave me one of the most precious gifts that I ever received.

In fact, I would say the most precious gift next to my own salvation that he gave me was witnessing my mother during the last six weeks of her life on her deathbed, seeing her abandon the idolatry and superstition and false gospel of Roman Catholicism and embrace salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and upon the finished work of Christ alone, which she made very clear in her testimony for the remaining six weeks of her life, and she ceased to pray to Mary and the saints, something that was a daily ritual for her.

She used to pray to Mary and St. Jude and I don't know how many other saints.

She was a very religiously minded Roman Catholic, but she just very, in a very calm and, what's the word

I'm looking for, it wasn't like a bolt of lightning hit her and she said, wow, I've been wrong all these years and I now become formally converted into the

Protestant faith. It was nothing like that. She just very calmly, in discussion, said, you know

Chris, you're right, I'm just praying to Jesus from now on, and when I asked her why she thought she was going to heaven and I asked her, you've been a wonderful mother and your life is filled with good deeds and sacrifice and humility and religion, is any of that helping you get to heaven?

And she said, no, no Chris. And I said, well why are you going to heaven? And she said, well Jesus Christ paid for my sins on the cross.

And I said, well why aren't those good deeds that you've been doing all your life, why aren't they helping you get into heaven?

And she said, well that would be like that story in the Bible where there is a Pharisee praying in the temple and he's bragging about all the things that he did and the sinful things that he did not do.

And he said that he thanked God that he was not like the tax collector that was also praying in the temple.

And the tax collector said, Lord be merciful to me, a sinner. And he beat his breast and Jesus said that the tax collector was saved.

And Chris, I'm the tax collector. I almost fell off the chair when she said this to me. This was not a rehearsed or prompted testimony, this was just naturally and calmly flowing out of her mouth as she was quickly approaching her last breath on earth, which occurred just a few weeks later.

And so this is very important to me, especially since, as you know

Jason, ecumenism between Protestants and Catholics is running rampant.

And it's even getting more and more popular and common and typical amongst very conservative, very

Calvinist congregations, denominations, and people. And it's really disturbing, and I'm sure it's just as disturbing to you.

Very much so, Chris. It's one of the things, honestly, that pushed me to make this.

There's a local church here that is in a sister denomination to our own.

We have ecumenical relations with them, and I was ordained in that denomination.

And this local church, they're using

St. Ignatius Loyola's spiritual exercises as a model for Christian discipleship.

What? Yeah. That's pretty stunning.

Yeah, well, within...

I'm stunned. I mean, I've seen it coming, but it seems as if this past year, it's just coming out of the woodworks.

I mean, I'm watching the 1960s, to some extent, play out again.

I'm old enough. I was born in 64. I remember some of these things and, you know,

I used to hear about them all the time. And, you know, we're watching, essentially, ecumenism.

We're seeing a weakness towards Rome. We're seeing the social gospel, social justice, which is often just a thinly -veiled communism.

And we're seeing race becoming something that...

everything is race now, in some circles. And, you know, the person from whatever corner of the world that God calls them that comes through Jesus Christ, they're my brother, my sister, more than an unbelieving sibling would be by blood.

You know, the water of baptism is supposed to be thicker than blood. But I'm watching the church being torn apart by all this.

And huge numbers of people are... not huge, but significant numbers of people from my old seminary,

Gordon Conwell, and even from the PCA and other places, they've gone to Rome.

We had an elder in our own congregation that he was unstable and he...

first he said we weren't reformed enough, and decided that there was only one congregation of the one de jure church in the world, in the

United States, and he wanted to move there. Wasn't able to move there, and I warned him when he left us that, you know,

I thought he was going to end up in Rome. And he laughed and he quoted Martin Luther's Here I Stand speech, and nine months later he's

Roman Catholic. And most people don't seem to understand what the real issues of the

Reformation were. It's a different gospel. And, you know, yes, they have

Jesus, and it's not the Jesus of Mormonism, who's our elder spirit brother, but it's...

Jesus is not sufficient in Roman Catholicism. There are all these intermediaries that you have.

You have the priest, you have Mary and the saints, you have the sacraments, you have all these things, but Christ himself is not enough.

You know, just to interrupt you for a second, when I speak to Roman Catholics, I don't know if you have the same experience, they don't seem to connect the dots.

Like, for instance, they would not say Jesus Christ is insufficient. They wouldn't say

Christ's death on Calvary's cross was insufficient. But when they start explaining their devotion to Mary and the saints, and they start explaining how they are saved, they are revealing that they, in truth, are stating that they believe in the insufficiency of Christ, the insufficiency of his atoning death, and the insufficiency of the scriptures.

Whether they say it or not, that's clearly what they're believing. Yes, very much.

And I've seen... it's the same thing with Mormonism.

Mormonism, 30 years ago, you had Bruce McConkie basically mocking the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus.

And you had a lot of Mormons who would say, we're not Christians, we're Mormons. Well, now they've repackaged it all, and they'll gush over how much they love

Jesus. But, of course, the Jesus that they love is not sufficient. He's just our older spirit brother.

We're all spirit children of Elohim, which is an exalted man from a planet near Kolob somewhere, and you're going to be...

if you go through the temple and do all the right things, and you earn the handshakes and the right things to get through the veil, then you can also be a god, just like Elohim, and just like Jesus.

Yeah, it seems like a combination of science fiction and Greek and Roman mythology.

Right, and with Roman Catholicism, you know, you'll get people who will gush over how much they love

Jesus, and yet they're praying to Mary, they're wearing the scapular, they're doing all these other things that distract them from the sufficiency of Christ.

When we... the last LDS video we made was temples made with hands, and you have a lot of Mormons who will say,

I just feel so close to Jesus in the temple. Well, that temple is a fundamental denial of the finished work of Christ.

Every one of them is a monument to the Mormon Church's rejection of Jesus, but it gets clouded over with lots of emotion.

But if you actually take them through and ask them questions, it peels back to the veneer. The mask comes off, and you see it for what it really is.

Similarly, you have Catholics who will talk about how much they love

Jesus, but one of the examples we use in the video is of the golden calf.

The golden calf was not meant to be a different God. Aaron told them, this is the

God that brought you out of Egypt, and then he builds an altar before it and calls a feast to Jehovah, Yahweh.

The golden calf is not supposed to be some other God. It's supposed to be Yahweh, and God's not pleased.

God's going to destroy the whole people, but Moses intercedes, and yet still, when he comes down from the mountain, 3 ,000 men are killed as a judgment on the nation for their idolatry.

There's a wonderful historical book. It's not written, to my knowledge, by a believer, but it's good history.

Oh, the guy's name just went out of my head. Carlos Eyre, I think is the way you pronounce it,

E -I -R -E, it's Oxford Press, called War Against the Idols. What so many

Protestants don't seem to understand today, for the

Lutherans and for some of the high church Anglicans and such, the fundamental issue with Rome was works righteousness, and so they threw out the things that were explicitly forbidden in Scripture, but for Zwingli, Calvin, Busser, and the

Reformed side of the Reformation, they recognized that works righteousness is the symptom of a deeper issue, which is idolatry, and that's what we've tried to stress here in Utah, is that works righteousness makes perfect sense if your

God is an exalted man, but it makes absolutely no sense if your God is the God of the Bible, whom the heavens of heavens can't contain, and similarly for Roman Catholics, you know, their idolatry is more explicit in some senses, but God isn't pleased with us coming to him any way we choose.

We don't come to God through idols, whether it be a golden calf, whether it be a statue of Mary, whether it be,

I mean, that's another God entirely, but even if she's holding Jesus, that's not, that's idolatry, and you know, we've forgotten what the

Reformation was about. Well, we have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing we will be right back with Jason Wallace and more of an earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about 90 minutes to go, is

Jason Wallace, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah. He's the producer of a number of documentary videos on Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and homosexuality, and today we are discussing his latest documentary video,

An Earnest Plea to Roman Catholics. We also are discussing the upcoming

LDS Protestant Dialogue between Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and a

Mormon scholar known as Alma Olred at Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.

And for more details about this event this weekend, you can go to GospelUtah .org,

and we will be repeating that throughout the program. If you have any questions for our guest, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com.

Before I start playing some clips of the new Roman Catholic documentary, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, once again, yours truly has contributed his beautiful voice to the documentary.

I am, at least in one part of the documentary, narrating some of the anathemas against Protestants, and I burst out laughing, probably so hard that neighbors from miles away could likely hear me laughing, but out of nowhere,

I get this private message, Facebook message.

I'm so untechnical these days, I don't even know what to call these things. But anyway, it was an audio clip that we could actually play it, you know, whoever sent it recorded his voice.

This happened to be our mutual friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and the recording said,

Chris Arnzen, anathematizing Protestants since 1563 with glee.

But anyway, I thought that was quite humorous, but he really enjoyed this documentary a lot.

But before I go on to this, I just want, I know I've done this before, but I don't think you could do it too many times, because Roman Catholics, who are unaware of the depth of idolatry that is inherent to their religion, they've got to hear this.

And this is not some quack that the Roman Catholic Church warns people about that I'm going to be quoting from.

This is not some housewife in the Midwest who has bizarre manifestations and visions and all kinds of strange things that, you know, you could easily discount as, well, that's just an overly pious person with a mental problem.

This is a saint. This is somebody that the Catholic Church has canonized officially as a saint.

Somebody that Catholics pray to. And I'm speaking of Alphonsus Liguori, and this,

I have to read this just to set the stage as to why you even created this documentary. This is a prayer of Alphonsus Liguori called the

Novena Prayer to Our Mother of Perpetual Help. O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all gifts which

God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this end he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery.

Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee.

Come to my aid, dearest mother, for I recommend myself to thee.

In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do

I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants.

Take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For if thou wilt protect me, dear mother,

I fear nothing, not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them, not from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together, nor even from Jesus my judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased."

Now if that doesn't make you wilt with disgust,

I cannot believe that you have a heart beating with the regenerating life of the

Holy Spirit, and if you would care to comment before we move on to clips from your documentary.

Yeah, for all the talk of Jesus, the deeper you go, it's

Mary that is the central focus of their devotion. We have the statues of Mary being crowned and carried around and adored, and yet they try to differentiate, oh no, no, no, we don't worship

Mary, we just venerate her, and yet they're kissing the statues, they're bowing before them, they're doing all these various things, and yet they try to differentiate and say, but we're not worshiping.

Well, it sure looks like worship, and biblically it is worship.

There is no practical difference between worship and veneration.

If you were to look at someone kneeling next to another person, and one is worshiping

God and one is venerating Mary, you would not be able to distinguish in their actions, and even in the words, like the words of Alphonsus Liguori, St.

Alphonsus Liguori, if you can't hear that prayer and not say that that man is an idolater, he is worshiping

Mary, if you cannot say that, I don't think that you can be a regenerate individual. Right, I mean, it's games that they play.

One of the sections we deal with in the video is how Mary has become more and more like Jesus.

It was in the Middle Ages, about a thousand years ago, that they began to refer to her as a mediatrix or co -mediator with Christ.

And then in 1854, I believe it is, you have the Pius IX declaring that she was conceived without sin like Jesus.

And so Mary was sinless. And then in 1915, my brain is fried today, 1952 or so, it was declared that like Jesus, she was assumed bodily into heaven.

And basically she, on a practical level for many Roman Catholics, she's replaced

Jesus. I mean, you go back and you look at the typical picture,

Mary, Jesus is a babe in arms. Mary's the one that is the adult, that is the real focus of things.

But in the declaration that she was born without original sin, the

Immaculate Conception, which is not that she conceived

Jesus without sin, but that she herself was conceived without sin. In that section, we deal with Pope Pius IX declaring these things dogmatically.

And one of the bases of his declaring all this is that Mary crushed the head of the serpent.

And this is based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew of Genesis 3 in the

Old Vulgate. In fact, you sent me a clip of the Pope Pius IX.

And is this the clip of what you are speaking about now, the Edgardo Mortara? No, this is actually later.

The clip I sent you is regarding Edgardo Mortara. But Pope Pius IX talked about how

Mary crushed the head of the serpent. She didn't. Jesus crushed the head of the serpent. Right.

And if you see many, if not most, statues of Mary, you will see under her bare feet the serpent.

Yeah. And, you know, the humble handmaid of the

Lord has been declared the Queen of Heaven. You don't find this in the

Bible. You have to take things out of context and twist them and then blow them completely out of proportion.

So, you know, we try to deal with that in the Scripture. One of the things about our videos is that they're not made for Christians to inform them about Roman Catholics, though they can serve that purpose or Latter -day

Saints. We make the videos with an LDS or a

Roman Catholic or a gay Christian audience in mind. So this video is actually made for a

Roman Catholic audience. And what we try to do is encourage people to watch the video themselves and then they can ask a

Roman Catholic instead of throwing all these arguments at them and cornering them and then making it very difficult.

You can simply say, I watched this video. I would love to hear your response to this. And you're somewhat removing yourself from the challenge to some degree.

Right. And we found that a lot of people who would be intimidated to try to learn all these things and learn the language and the history and everything else, and would be leery of trying to engage someone over these things, pointing them to a video is a whole lot easier.

Yes. In fact, I'm going to start with the clips after our midway break because I don't want to cut a clip in half or cut you in mid -sentence.

So we're going to be going to our midway break. This is our longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two major segments because they play their own commercials and public service announcements during this time.

So please take this time to not only write down questions for Jason Wallace of Christ's Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah on Roman Catholicism, but also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can properly and successfully patronize them whenever possible.

Because remember, the more you patronize our sponsors, those that advertise on our program, the longer we will probably remain on the air because our advertisers will be happy and they will continue to sponsor the show and they will be more financially capable of sponsoring the show.

So please, whenever you can patronize our advertisers, write down the information and respond to the ads as soon as you can.

But don't go away, God willing, we will be right back after these messages with more of Jason Wallace and an earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

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That's linbrookbaptist .org. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Ironson on Iron Shepard's Iron Radio.

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We have some important announcements to give you before we return to our guest

Jason Wallace and our discussion on an earnest plea to Roman Catholics. The aforementioned debate is being held between Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Reformed Baptist and Evangelical Protestant, and Alma Ullred, a

Mormon, and this is going to be held as we mentioned at Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, and that begins the first day of a three -day conference at Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah from July 6th to July 8th, and for more details go to gospelutah .org,

gospelutah .org, and tell our friend Jason Wallace that you heard about the events from Chris Arns and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The same day, and thankfully far far away from that location since we're not in any geographical competition here, but the same day

I am running an event in New York City. It is the first Iron Sharpens Iron Radio event in Manhattan that I have ever orchestrated since we launched in 2005.

I've had many events in different locations and Long Island, New York, I've had many events but never Manhattan before, and I'm looking forward to having all of you that are able to attend on Friday night,

July 6th at 6 30 p .m. when Dr. Tony Costa, the

Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, will be speaking at the

First Baptist Church of New York City, a very historic church going back to the 1700s at least, on 79th and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side.

He's going to be speaking on defending the faith in a post -modern society, and then after that, after a break, he will be speaking on the dangers of cultural

Marxism's impact on society and the church, and then after that there will be a

Q &A with the audience to follow. If you would like to also be a part of a smaller gathering of pastors and church leaders over lunch at 12 noon that same day, you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com to get more details, and that's a free lunch.

You do not have to pay for it, so let me know if you'd like to attend that, but the event itself is going to be at First Baptist Church of New York City, meaning the seminar, the free seminar,

First Baptist Church of New York City, this Friday, July 6, 6 30 p .m to 10 p .m, and that's at First Baptist Church of New York City on 265

West 79th Street and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side. For more details, give me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Then following that, the

Fellowship Conference New England is being held, God willing, from August 2nd through the 4th at the

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. The speakers include

Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church of San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

For more details on the Fellowship Conference New England, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

and you can register there. Please tell the folks there that you heard about the event from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Then coming up in November, I'm looking forward to manning another exhibitor's booth

November 9th and 10th at the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals Annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

That's being held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania. The theme is the

Glory of the Cross, and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.

That's November 9th through the 10th in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town.

For more details, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, then click on the

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. Please tell the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Then coming up in January of 2019, I am so excited that for my third year in a row,

I am going to be, God willing, manning another exhibitor's booth at the

G3 Conference, which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

The theme this year is the Mission of God, a Biblical Understanding of Missions. That's going to be held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th of 2019.

There will be an exclusively Spanish -speaking version of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, that you should let all of your

Spanish -speaking or bilingual friends know about. But the speakers at this event include

Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, my friend Josh Bice, who is the director of the

G3 Conference, Anthony Mathenia, who is Paul Washer's pastor, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and there are many more on this list.

So please, if you would like to attend the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

and please tell the folks orchestrating the G3 Conference that you heard about it from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And by the way, you can not only go to g3conference .com to register to attend, you can also register for an exhibitor's booth at the conference, just like I will be manning there.

They're expecting over 4 ,000 people to attend this event, so it would be well worth your while to sponsor an exhibitor's booth.

If you have a church, parachurch ministry, a business of some kind that you believe is of great benefit to the body of Christ, then please go to g3conference .com

and say you want to man an exhibitor's booth there amongst the crowd of 4 ,000 plus people.

Now is the least popular time of my program. My least favorite, it's where I have to beg you for money, but Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is always in need of your advertising dollars and your donations.

I just want to thank God for all of you who heard the SOSs loud and clear and have come through and rescued us from some very scary financial situations that we were in, and you bailed us out of bills that were already overdue.

It seemed that a steady stream of donations that were coming in weekly had completely dried up for almost a month, and then a lot of you have taken heed to the call for help, and I thank

God for you in more ways than I could possibly describe to you, and I want to thank all of you who have renewed your advertising contracts, like the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible, like BatteryDepot .com, like Linbrook Baptist Church in Linbrook, Long Island, New York.

I want to thank my new advertisers, the IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, a brand new advertiser who you're going to be hearing soon on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, they have made it official that they are sponsoring us for a year, and the new church plant in Manhattan who have agreed to sponsor us for a year just yesterday, they made it official.

The New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan, thank you to Pastor Andy Woodard and the treasurer there

Gary Rosenblatt for bringing me the good news yesterday that it is official you will be sponsoring us for a year, but please if you love this show and you don't want it to go off the air go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

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as much as you can and as often as you can. If you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. Whatever it is you want to advertise, your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your professional practice, whether you're a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist, chiropractor, whether it's just a special event, we would love to advertise whatever you're doing as long as it's compatible with what we believe.

It doesn't have to be identical with what we believe, it just needs to be compatible. Send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. And by the way, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you need help finding one,

I have lists of churches all over the world and I can help you. And I want to thank all of you who have responded to that announcement that I've been starting to make very recently every day, if I can remember, that if you are without a local

Bible -believing church, I can help you. In fact, I just helped somebody today in the

Nanuet, New York area find a church. So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put in the subject line something like, I need a church near me or something like that.

But the email address for our guest, for questions for our guest, is chrisarnson at gmail .com

as well. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com if you have a question for our guest today, Jason Wallace, on the theme in earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

And Jason, I'm going to play the first clip here. And this is going to be the clip from Boniface from Unum Sanctum.

And this is Pope Boniface VIII in 1302. And then you can explain in more detail what this clip is about after we hear the clip.

So I hope that you folks enjoy. We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the

Roman pontiff. I just, I gotta meet this guy. Because I need him for some work on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to do some voiceovers.

But now, is this person an Italian? Yes. I mean, I don't think you could fake that.

Well, I guess some people could. But what a remarkable voiceover. Now, tell us about this, because this is so much in stark contrast to the modern

Roman Catholic catechism, in stark contrast to Pope Francis and even the more conservative popes before him since Trent, I'm sorry, since Vatican II, since the late 1950s, early 1960s.

There has been a different song the Church of Rome has been singing in that regard. But tell us about this. Yeah, basically, one of the themes of the video is to contrast the historic

Catholic Church with what we see today from Pope Francis and honestly, what we see since Vatican II.

Because if you ask a typical Roman Catholic, well, ours is the church that was founded by Jesus Christ.

And you have to ask him, well, which one was it? Was it the one that was burning Protestants or the one where the pope is praying in a mosque with an imam and kissing the

Quran? Oh, they all are. They're all Catholic. And you ask them, well, was the

Latin mass Catholic or are puppet masses Catholic? And you'll get traditionalists who will say, well, these are not

Catholic. But the problem is you have popes that are contradicting popes.

And most importantly, all the popes for the last 1500 years, basically, have been contradicting the

Bible and the historic faith of the Church. And Catholicism is not the historic faith.

One of the things that inspired me to do all of this is there's a broadcast called

The Journey Home. And it has interviews with people who have come out of Protestantism and come to the

Catholic Church. Well, the testimonies they give are so awful.

Yeah, they're very shallow, extremely embarrassingly shallow testimonies. Well, one lady was,

I think, in the OPC, at least at one point. And she was saying,

I never realized the Bible never tells me how we get the Bible. And I'm sitting there with my mouth hanging open.

It's like, you've never been taught or we're just not paying attention. But the

Protestant Reformation was not over some new and novel thing. It wasn't like Azusa Street, where something is claimed to be totally new, or a

Restorationist kind of view. The Protestant Reformation was about going back to the

Scriptures and the historic faith of the Church. In his final edition of the

Institutes of the Christian Religion, it's well over 800 times John Calvin quotes from the

Church Fathers to support what he's saying. This is not just his personal interpretation of Scripture, this is the

Catholic interpretation of Scripture. Rome had abandoned the way that the

Scriptures had been taught by Augustine and Chrysostom and a whole host of others.

It comes as a shock to many people today that the

Protestant Reformation in Zurich under Zwingli started not only through the reading of the

Scriptures that the printing press had made more readily available, but also through his reading of the sermons of Chrysostom from well over a thousand years earlier.

Let's see here. I'm going to play one more clip before we go to our final break, and of course

I'll play more clips when we return from the break. I was going to begin to read a question from a listener, but I think

I'll wait until the last half hour to start reading listener questions. But the next clip that we are going to hear before the station break is a clip where you have provided a church father that not only

Roman Catholic individuals and the Roman Catholic Church officially claims as a father, but you and I would claim him as a father and a hero of the

Church. This is a quote from Athanasius by our mutual friend Pastor Bill Shishko, formerly the pastor of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, and now the voice of the Visit to the

Pastor Study radio program and the domestic missionary for Reformation Metro New York.

This is a quote from Athanasius by our friend, or voiced, I should say, by our friend Bill Shishko.

Our faith is right and starts from the teaching of the apostles and tradition of the fathers being confirmed both by the

New Testament and the Old. Vainly, then, do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded counsels for the faith's sake, for divine

Scripture is sufficient above all things. But if a counsel be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the fathers, for the

Nicene bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly that persons reading their words honestly cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine

Scripture. Well, if you could give us some commentary on why you included that quote from Athanasius in the documentary.

Sure. Roman Catholics claim that somehow we are unbalanced and that we hold to Scripture alone as our infallible rule of faith and practice.

The reality is that their claim of having three sources, sacred

Scripture, sacred tradition, and the magisterium of the church, when you go back and look at it,

Irenaeus is saying that you had the Gnostics were the ones who were claiming that they had secret oral traditions.

And they say that the Scriptures are not sufficient. Well, that's what Rome is saying. And Rome loves to quote

Irenaeus when he compliments Rome, but they ignore him when he says that the people who are citing oral tradition against the

Scriptures are wrong. Yeah. Well, I love hearing our friend

Pastor Bill Shishko's voice. He's got a great narrator's voice and I want to thank him for participating in this excellent documentary that you've created.

And the Church of Rome, when it claims,

I mean, some of these other clips, in addition to the one we already played from one of the popes before, are very clear proof that the claim that is repeated ad nauseam infinitum, as they say, that is,

I should say, that it's regurgitated so often that the Catholic Church has not changed since Peter was declared its first pope, is absolutely, in fact, even insanely ridiculous, isn't it?

Yes. It's very, very clearly they have changed, and we helped demonstrate that in the video.

It's a different religion. It's not the same religion as the

Scriptures, it's not the same religion as the early Church. And what we call people back to is to go back to the

Scriptures and back to the historic Catholic faith. Amen.

Well, we are going to our last station break right now. It's a very brief break, but if you want to ask a question of our guest,

Jason Wallace, on Roman Catholicism, please speak now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

And in fact, what I'm going to do, Jason, is I'm forwarding to you a question from a listener in Cork, Ireland, that's a very lengthy question, so I figured it'd be good for you to have it right in front of you so you could comment better, more properly, after we return from our final break.

So keep your eye open, Pastor Jason, for this question from Mary in Cork, Ireland.

But if anybody else wants to join her, and we do have a few others still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, so please be patient.

But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. But don't go away, God willing, we are going to be back after this final commercial break with our friend

Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. One sure way all

Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all, from now on, to exclusively use

BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs. At BatteryDepot .com,

they're changing the status quo. They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

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Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen. And by the way, please, if you know of businesses that purchase large quantities of batteries, especially, please let me know about them, refer them to me, and even more especially if they're

Christian -owned because I want to give that lead to our friends at BatteryDepot .com.

As I said, they just renewed their advertising contract. In fact, they are going to be paying for the lunch also at the small gathering of pastors this

Friday at 12 noon in Manhattan before the seminar, the free seminar with Dr.

Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary. They're also co -sponsoring that event as well. But if you could please let me know of businesses and corporations that you are familiar with, especially if you know those in management or the owners or presidents, maybe even especially those in the purchasing department that purchase batteries,

I would love to be able to refer those organizations to BatteryDepot .com

as my way of saying thanks for their support for everything I've been doing since 1995 when

I had my first debate that I organized with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Jerry Manatex. So please send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

with any leads that you have for companies that purchase large quantities of batteries.

And by the way, you may remember this, Pastor Jason, but when

James White many years ago, before I even had orchestrated my first debate between James and Jerry Manatex, when

James was on the radio, I believe, debating Jerry Manatex, and he read that prayer that I read earlier by St.

Alphonsus Liguori. Jerry Manatex said after James was finished, and I hope one day you can pray that prayer with me,

Mr. White, which is quite breathtakingly frightening. Oh, most definitely.

Before we go to a question slash comment by Mary in Cork, Ireland, I just want to play another clip from your documentary that we are discussing an earnest plea to Roman Catholics.

And by the way, let me repeat our email address if anybody wants to join us with a question of your own before we run out of time, now is your opportunity before we run out of time,

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com if you have a question for Jason Wallace. This is going to be yours truly, reading a portion of the

Council of Trent's anathemas, and this is on the

Eucharist. So I hope that you enjoy hearing yours truly in the voice of a

Roman Catholic. Here we go. If anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the

Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our

Lord Jesus Christ and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change of the

Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema.

Wow. Somebody's got to hire that guy for voiceover. I love it.

I couldn't have hired anybody to do a better job than that. You and Bill and others have been very, very gracious to us.

I appreciate that, and James White seemed to appreciate it as well. But one of the reasons why this is fascinating to me, that very anathema, is that years ago when, this is back in I think the 90s, might have been the early 2000s,

I was trying to find a Roman Catholic apologist to debate on the

Mass, which I eventually did, and I can't remember who exactly out of the many

Catholics that we had over that decade of debates that I got to defend the Roman Catholic Mass.

But one of the people that I approached was someone, I don't know if you would recognize him, but many, many

New Yorkers who are Roman Catholic would recognize this name, and anybody who watches

EWTN would recognize this name, Father Benedict Groeschel, who is an author,

I'm not 100 % sure, he's still with us, but he was a monk, or is a monk, and was one of the speakers on EWTN.

Very knowledgeable, intellectual man, a nice spirit about him.

But when I asked him to debate the Mass, he said that he declined my offer because many who are faithful Christians disagree over transubstantiation, it is not an essential of the faith.

And I said, what? I said, isn't that one of the pillar dogmas of Rome that you are talking about here?

Oh no, I have many brothers in Christ who do not believe in transubstantiation. This is coming from a Roman Catholic. You cannot be really a faithful Roman Catholic and believe that this is not an essential issue, can you?

No. One of the opening quotes that we have, I didn't send you a copy of it, but the, let me go back here,

I've got it right here in front of me. Well, I'll repeat our email address while you're looking for that.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com if you have a question. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Yeah, this is from Benedict XV from 1914.

He said, such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected.

This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Wow. When you get into the dogma, I mean, it's official dogma of the

Immaculate Conception, Pope Pius IX said that if you do not hold to this, you have made shipwreck of the faith.

And so, one of the things that we start with in the video is contrasting the modern church with the church of people's grandparents.

We have a quote from Pius XI where he says, the Catholic church alone is keeping the true worship.

This is the font of truth. This is the house of faith. This is the temple of God. And in the background, we're showing a bishop supervising a mass with giant puppets, and they're beating on a conga drum, and the people are all dancing around.

And, you know, you have traditional Catholics who grieve over this, and they try to explain away, well, just because the pope is sinful doesn't mean he's not infallible.

And yet, we have popes calling other popes heretics, and we document that in the video.

I'm sure it was probably documented somewhere else before, but I had seen the quote attributed to Pope Adrian VI numerous times that there have been many heretical popes, but I couldn't find anyone who cited a source.

And I finally found someone who gave a source that was actually an English translation of a French work.

And through that, I got back to the original Latin, and we've got a facsimile of the page in Latin.

And we have it translated by a friend of mine who's a classicist, and we give the whole context.

This idea of papal infallibility only goes back to 1870. But you can't play the games that Rome does and say, we're the true

Catholic Church. And yes, there's problems, but we're infallible. No, you're not. Popes and councils have denounced popes as heretics, and yet they gloss over all that, and they try to explain it all away, and they do all kinds of dancing, and generally, they just attack.

They try to identify anything outside of Rome with historic

Protestantism. Well, it's not. There are very few Protestants around anymore.

You have a lot of people who have no sense of what the Reformation was even about. They don't care whether they connect to the historic faith of the

Church. They see this great leap between the apostles and them.

And yes, we need to read the Bible for ourselves, but if the Bible can be understood, what does it say if you believe that it really wasn't understood until you, or until L.

and G. White, or Charles Chase Russell, or whoever you want to pick?

We don't view tradition as infallible, but ours is not a new and novel faith.

Ours is the historic faith of the Church. Now, much of what's done in churches today, even so -called

Protestant churches, isn't reformed. Isn't biblical. It's not Catholic. But you can't use that to dismiss those who truly follow the

Scriptures and stand in line with Christostom, and Augustine, and Irenaeus, and a host of others.

They have their errors. We have ours. But you can't confuse modern

Catholicism with the early Church. Right. Well, let's read Mary from Cork, Ireland's email.

Thank you, Pastor Jason and Chris. I'm glad you are exposing the falseness of the Roman Catholic Church.

I, too, was a Roman Catholic who prayed to Mary and to St. Jude for hopeless cases. I daily read prayers for indulgences to get out of purgatory, etc.

I only knew what I was taught from the Church, but got wonderfully saved when

I heard the true gospel. Only the Holy Spirit opened my eyes. I plead with any

Roman Catholic listening to read the Bible and check these things out for yourself. Paul wrote in 2

Corinthians 4, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Following is a prayer I was taught and believed, which is such a lie and contrary to Scripture.

Firstly, Mary is not the mother of mercy. Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 1 -3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort. Secondly, Mary is not our advocate.

Paul says in 1 Timothy 2 -5, there is only one mediator between God and man, the man

Christ Jesus, nor is she the mother of God. God has no mother. He is eternal. Psalm 90 verse 2, from everlasting to everlasting you are

God. Here is the prayer worshiping Mary. Hail Holy Queen, mother of mercy.

Hail our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.

To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb,

Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary, pray for us,

O holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Now if you could just respond to what Mary says here. I appreciate her encouragement.

We make the same plea at the end of the video to take up the Bible, read it for yourself, don't take our word, but don't take anyone's word for it.

God has spoken. Go to the Bible and find the Jesus there and compare him to what you've been taught, and you'll find it's a different Jesus.

The Jesus who receives the worst of sinners, and the Jesus that you can't play games with.

And we tell people, flee to him, because it's your soul and the souls of your children that hang in the balance.

So I appreciate that. You look to Catholicism.

My draw to dealing with Mormons 30 years ago was that the

Lord shook me from a nominal faith. I was religious. I said prayers. I picked up the

Bible, and I was lost as could be. And the Lord used someone trying to recruit me into a cult to embarrass me with my lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

And in studying those scriptures with earnestness for the first time in my life,

I realized it wasn't just the scriptures I didn't know. I didn't know God. And I wanted to go back.

When the Lord brought me to a saving faith, I wanted to go back to these people who had a form of godliness but denied the power of it.

And soon after, I had a chance to visit Utah, and I realized these people were like me. And I recognize in Catholicism, people hide from God in a whole host of ways.

One of the most dangerous places to hide from him is in church, because you can be religious, and you can quiet your conscience, and you can go through the motions and never know him.

One of the other reasons we made this video is that there are a lot of folks that they've been exposed to an easy -believism, a watered -down, sweetened -up gospel, that they've been promised that all their problems will go away if they turn to Jesus, and they find out it doesn't happen.

Because it's not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible says, if you don't hate your wife, your children, your mother, your father, your own life also, you can't be his disciple.

And we're told to count the cost. We're told that he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword.

And there are a lot of people that have been through sort of the easy -believism. They get burned.

And Rome comes to them with smells and bells, and the air of historicity, and in place of a, well, we show in the video,

Rome's got its own praise bands. We've got a priest rocking out Padre Johnny in Spain in one of the clips.

But even the more traditional Catholics, they say, you know, we've got, you know, we're so much better than these

Protestants who have no substance. You know, we've got the

Goria Patri, we've got the Creed, we've got this, we've got the other. And there are people who are attracted to that, not realizing it's no more biblical than what they're leaving.

Right. By the way, I just want to get through a couple of our listener questions before we run out of time.

Before I do that, just a very quick clarification. There are Catholics who are going to be wrongly thinking that if we object to the title

Mother of God for Mary, that in some way that that necessitates that we are rejecting the deity of Christ.

If you could just explain how those two do not necessarily go together. Yeah, one of the things that they love to latch onto, we had a member years ago who left for traditional

Roman Catholicism, and he wanted to call us Nestorians. Because one of the labels in the 4th century, and then into the 5th century that was popping up, was people were wanting to call

Mary the mother of God. And Nestorius and others objected to that and said, well, she was the mother of Christ because he didn't want confusion.

Well, long story short, Nestorius and his opponents all sort of got condemned, and the language of the

Theotokos, the God -bearer, was historically used.

But she wasn't the mother of his divinity. He received a true human body through Mary.

She was his mother in terms of the flesh, but what

Rome has turned the Theotokos into, they use that as an excuse to make her another god, to make her a co -mediator, a co -redeemer even.

You see Mother Teresa and others championing this. She basically becomes another Christ. Right.

I remember humorously years ago a friend of mine who was Roman Catholic said,

Mary could not have had other children because then

Jesus' brothers and sisters would be demigods. And I said, what are you talking about?

His deity did not come from her womb. It was just Jesus' physical body that was conceived by the

Holy Spirit. And she wouldn't be, after having a natural marital relations with Joseph, she would not be producing demigods because he, whether he wanted to admit it or not, he was viewing

Mary as some kind of deity. That's why she would be giving birth to gods or demigods, even if she was having marital relations with Joseph.

I mean, so you have to come to the conclusion that Mary in his understanding was some kind of a deity.

But I have to go to Ben Walden. I usually don't give full names, but Ben Walden is a colleague at First Love Publications who sponsored this program and who aired this program on their radio network,

First Love Radio, out in Dublin, California. And Ben Walden writes in,

I work within the Central Kentucky horse industry. And as I result, and as a result, work with many

Mexican -American horsemen and horsewomen who grew up in Mexico as Catholics.

I hear them mention Guadalupe within the context of their Catholic upbringing. What would be your advice on how to best witness to these

Hispanic Catholics? And that's Ben Walden, the manager of First Love Publications.

By the way, they publish books, not only contemporary books by contemporary living authors, but also by great minds of the past, like A .W.

Pink and others, and Spurgeon and Calvin. And they give them away for free. They don't sell anything.

But anyway, if you could answer Ben's question. Sure. Let me qualify it.

I have not dealt with a lot of Mexican -Americans. And so this is my best advice with limited experience in that area.

We have images of the Mary of Guadalupe in the video because we're trying to touch that base.

But we don't directly deal with that per se. What I try to do with folks is

I try to gently but firmly deal with the claims of Rome at somewhat of a distance.

We start with the thing that's obvious to any Catholic of any age, of any years, and that is

Rome has radically changed. You know, if you're old enough to remember before Vatican II, you remember there's

Latin Mass. You remember it was, I think, 1967 when eating meat was declared no longer a mortal sin in the

United States. For Mexicans, as far as I know, it still is a mortal sin in Mexico.

But it's not in the United States. And in the United States, you'll have people give up meat for Lent. You'll have people give up meat for various other things and it's encouraged.

But it's not a mortal sin, and yet it is in some places. And so that would raise questions for them that you can use to try to get them thinking.

What we do is basically shake them up a little bit at the beginning. And just we have a video of this puppet mass, and we have a clip of Pope Francis as the

Person of the Year for Advocate magazine, which is a homosexual magazine. And they've superimposed on his face no hate, you know,

H with an H, and his quote about who am I to judge. And we basically use that to leverage into part one, which is the unanimous consent of the fathers.

And we open up with a quote that Catholics say over and over and over, which is from Cardinal Newman, 19th century, to be truly deep in history is to cease to be

Protestant. Biggest lie ever told in the face of the earth. Yeah, I mean, this is like saying that water is not wet.

But the big lie, if you say it enough times, people begin to believe it. And the reality is very few people who are outside of Rome, and also inside of Rome, very few people, period, read history.

They don't read their Bibles, much less the Church Fathers. And so you get someone like a

Jerry Matitix, that we also had a debate with him and St. Jenna's here, years ago. You get these people, and they start quoting the

Church Fathers, and people's eyes glaze over. It's like, wow, who can argue with that? How about somebody else who's read them?

All right. So anyway. Well, we have time for one last question. And this is from Sika Lee, a very strange name, a

Dutch Canadian name. He is from Ponoka, Alberta, Canada. And he asks, howdy, howdy, boys, whatever that means.

Will that debate be available to listen to and watch live on the website, or at least shortly after?

He's obviously speaking of the Mormon debate this Friday. Right, shortly after. We don't have the resources or the technical expertise to be able to pull it off live, but Lord willing, it will be up very shortly afterwards.

And all of our videos are on the same YouTube channel, which is AncientPathTV, all one word. But the easy way to access our videos,

RomanCatholic .Video, LDS .Video, or GayChristian .Video. And we are out of time, brother.

And I also want to make sure they have your church website, GospelUtah .org, GospelUtah .org.

I want to thank you so much, Pastor Jason Wallace, for being our guest today. I look forward to your return. And I thank everybody who wrote in today, especially those who took the time.

Actually, I'm being redundant right now. Thank everybody who listened, and especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.