March 19, 2019 Show with Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus on “Libertarianism: Is It Compatible With Reformed Theology & the Defense of the Rights of Unborn Children?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at Ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of March 2019 and we're gonna have

I'm sure a fascinating discussion today something that I don't address regularly Although I have addressed it on the program in the past We're going to be talking about libertarianism

I happen to be libertarian leaning myself a right -leaning libertarian, but I know that this group is not monolithic there are differences of opinion just like there are in most subjects in life whether they be politics or Theology or other areas of importance and libertarianism is no different.

But today we're specifically going to be addressing Libertarianism is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of Unborn children to discuss this issue are two libertarians

We have first Carrie Baldwin who is an independent researcher and writer with a

Bachelor of Arts in philosophy she is the host of the website mere liberty comm a regular contributor for the

Libertarian Christian Institute a Confessionally Reformed Christian and member of the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and she's an outspoken libertarian and defender of Christian Orthodoxy and developed the podcasts women

Christianity and libertarianism dare to think and Flashes of Liberty and first of all, let me welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio

Carrie Baldwin Thank You Chris, I'm really glad to be here

It's great to have you here and also joining us for the first time ever on iron sharpens iron radio is

Gregory Baus he is a freelance itinerant a teacher a current grad student at Northwest University in South Africa and an independent researcher on the topic of a reformed view of stateless civil governance, which is also known as libertarian anarchism and He is also going to be addressing the theme that I already mentioned

Libertarianism is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children and one of the reasons

I am even conducting this program today is because Libertarianism is not really given a voice nearly as much as Mainstream Republican and Democratic ideology, although even those two parties are not monoliths either

But I can say though when I first started this program in 2005 you heard hardly ever heard a

Libertarian opinion in the major media, but it is increasing but I think that today we're gonna hear opinions that might even

Be different from you from what you hear from libertarians That you may occasionally hear on Fox News or other places

But first of all as we always do or at least we usually do on iron sharpens iron radio when we have first -time guests

We have them give a summary of their salvation Testimony, and if you could carry bold and we'll start with you

What kind of a religious atmosphere were you raised in if any and what kind of providential?

Circumstances that our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and save you I Grew up in the

Lutheran Church, the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. I was baptized catechized and confirmed and saved there

So as a good Lutheran girl, if you asked me when I was saved, I would tell you when I was three months old I found reformed theology in about 2006

I was doing some Independent research shall we say on the doctrine of baptism specifically infant baptism and I found that through dr.

RC sprawl so eventually, I became a member of my local

OPC in about 2014 but I've grown up in the church and Have always known that God is my

Heavenly Father and that I'm a sinner in need of of salvation, so Praise God, and how did you become interested in libertarianism?

And in fact, not only become interested in it you dived into it with full force and are very very actively involved in promoting

Right, so Politically I was a Republican. I grew up in a

Republican family and remained so until about 2008 during the presidential primaries

That was that was the first year that I had the opportunity to vote in a presidential primary

And there were so many options in the Republican Party at that point I didn't know how to choose and I got this wild crazy idea that I should look up the

Constitution to tell me what the executive office is for and Lo and behold these the only candidates up there who was following the

Constitution was Ron Paul so Ron Paul is the one who introduced me to libertarianism and Eventually, I became an anarchist in about 2017, but I started writing about libertarianism back in 2012 and Now if we could

Gregory Baus Have your the summary of how our Lord saved you what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in etc

Sure And I hope I don't have any technical difficulties here

You're going in and out a little bit for me. Really you sound you sound perfect both of you sound perfect So I'm not sure.

I don't know why I'm going in and out. It's not on my end. I can't hear anything like that I'm okay. All right, maybe it's mine.

But in any case I Was also born and raised in a Christian home my parents were converted in young adulthood and So they entered an

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation as well before I was born and so I was also catechized and reformed faith and I became a communicate member at a fairly young age at about nine years, but There was never a time when

I didn't know and love the Lord that I can remember Although I'd say when

I was about 15 the particulars of the reformed faith

Were impressed on me in a new way I had read the Confession was reading

Calvin's Institutes and this kind of thing and I became pretty gung -ho for Reformed distinctives at least by that time

Great well Kerry mentioned a key word here that might separate you.

In fact, it's more than might separate you does separate you two from Some more

I guess mainstream libertarians and you you use the word anarchist and of course

Many people have all kinds of images that come to mind when it comes to anarchists

They might think immediately as I perhaps did the sex pistols Think of people carrying torch

People carrying torches in the streets and you know throwing people out of their government offices and just rioting and and in fact someone might even have

Judges 2125 come to mind in those days. There was no king in Israel and everyone did was what was right in his own mind or his own eyes but if you could explain specifically what that is and then we'll gonna have the way that our guests want to address this twofold subject which is

Libertarianism is a compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children. We're gonna have

Gregory is going to be dealing primarily with the aspect of how this is a

Compatible ideology with reformed theology and then the second hour we're gonna have Kerry predominantly

Handle the issue of the defense of the rights of the unborn But of course they can both jump in during each hour

But if you could either either one of you that wants to jump in first about this idea of anarchism well,

I I'd like to Get into the biblical text right away, but I guess beforehand

It's a good idea to explain what we think the scriptures support In our in our view.

Yeah, it's got nothing to do with punk rock. Unfortunately But As briefly as I can

I'll try to present the main ideas I won't really argue for it because I think the argument ought to come in the form of how particularly say

Romans 13 Is compatible with this but in any case

It's also not about the Libertarian Party and It's not about any particular

Political candidate. So right. In fact, the last and libertarian presidential candidate was far from libertarian, wasn't it?

But he was in favor of gun control laws and all kinds of strange things that seemed out of place with libertarians

Yeah, so if you can separate in one's mind any associations with the

Libertarian Party That's probably for the best It's a political philosophy or a view of civil governance that's based on a particular view of what persons are what property is inherent rights and Specifically the legitimate use of coercion and That namely is

That the initiation or first use of Coercion sometimes we restrict the word aggression for the first use or initiation of coercion that that You the first use of coercion against others or their property for example

You know murder assault theft fraud The credible threatening of these things

None of these things are ever legitimate So the initiation of coercion is never legitimate and the only legitimate use of coercion is in proper response or Proportional response to prior

Initiation of coercion, so it's only legitimately used responsibly and that principle or norm

We believe is a universal God -given norm. And of course, it's seen in the sixth and eighth

Commandments Do not murder do not steal Interestingly Proverbs 3 30

Also has some implications for this Says something to the effect of don't contend with your neighbor if he hasn't harmed you and that sort of has legal nuance

That means don't bring the law or force or coercion against someone who hasn't done so to you

In any case we also and it's important to distinguish between vice or things that are imprudent or sinful and What is crime?

so The Realm of ethics and morality

Which centers in loving your neighbor? This is distinct from What justice or civil justice is?

Which has to do with what is due to others? So in civil matters failing to give do what is someone's do this may be?

Always unloving But not necessarily vice versa for example

You know if you lie this is sinful this is a violation of the norm of love of ethics of morality

But it's not necessarily a criminal offense So we have to distinguish between those two things that helps us understand this principle

Another thing that we need to distinguish is between what we own and owe

With respect to God Distinguish that from what we own and we owe with respect to other people so you can think of it in terms of if you

Say the vertical and the horizontal This principle has to do with the horizontal towards what we own and owe with respect to other people because of course

God owns Everything we owe everything to God and With regard to our neighbor

What we own and owe doesn't work that way It's not the same my neighbor can steal from me.

God cannot steal from me. So those things have to be distinguished the last most important distinction that gets to the heart of what stateless civil governance is about is distinguishing the state what is the state in this particular form of Political legal order you could say

How is that distinct from civil governance as such? So the state is a particular form of it and Generally we understand that civil governance is

Basically the adjudication of civil disputes Involving persons or their property and this has to do with rights

Rights are enforceable or enforceable normative claims regarding your person or property and so Civil governance has to do centrally with the adjudication of disputes over those things with the rules and the

Enforcement that accompanies that adjudication Whereas a state is a territorial monopoly on coercion and That monopoly requires the initiation of coercion against people on their property

The state because it has a monopoly on coercion is in principle and always increasingly pending in practice totalitarian

You know, that's the thing when I was a constitutionalist And I thought well governments have to be

Chained by the Constitution limited by the Constitution Someone had asked me

I believe it was Larry Pratt of the gun owners of America He had put the question to me, which is the most important amendment and of course if you know him or his organization

He had said it's the second because all the other ones are just writing on paper you have to have the means to defend your rights and That got me thinking about the monopoly power of the state

I realized that even with the inherent right to defend my own other rights that The monopoly actually means in principle the state is totalitarian and it tends in that direction always

It's not limited if it's a monopoly even by a piece of paper or your gun Just in principle.

It's not limited So as a monopoly we recognize that states are inherently in their foundation unjust

Because they require the initiation of coercion against people and their property

They're not legitimate necessary. They're not inevitable. They're not prudent practical. However civil governance that is the

Adjudication of disputes in a non monopolistic fashion that is stateless civil governance this is legitimate and It's necessary for civil justice

Historically, it's been practiced in various part partial ways

Throughout history it fits with social and economic realities, it's plausible, it's a realistic alternative to the state and It really takes limited

Government to its consistent conclusion the proper role of government as a

Impartial Judge of third party judge of disputes

If you have three people for example and One of the principles would be you can't be a judge in your own case persons a

B and C if persons a and B have a dispute they can go to C, but if persons

C and a have a just dispute that doesn't mean C gets to decide they should go to B.

And so it's that understanding of limited government of Separation of powers so to speak taken to its logical conclusion that produces a non monopolistic stateless understanding of civil governance

So Terry has written a series of excellent articles four articles at the

Libertarian Christian Institute their website libertarian Christians and We will link to those will provide the links for those

There's another essay by a philosopher named Gerard Casey That I found very helpful, and I've also put together a playlist so we've collected some resources regarding this basic position that we want to make available to your listening audience and That's libertarian

Christians .com is the full website That's where the articles are libertarian

Christians .com, but we're going to put together a kind of Notes page for this interview at Kerry's website so at mereliberty .com

Slash Romans 13 so Romans. I guess would be lowercase. I'm not sure if it matters, but Kerry's website is mereliberty .com

Slash Romans 13 I'll have my notes listed there, and then a link to where Kerry is going to have some further resources listed

Now well now so to just have you summarize again what you said

People should not hear the word anarchist that you use

And I'll ask you in a minute. Why you would use a word that has such horrible connotations mentally to it, but You do not believe to an end of all government

At all that's right. You've been trying not not you do not believe it's not getting rid of government

It's getting rid of the state getting rid of a form of government that we think is inherently unjust and Chris I would say that Anarchists are sort of I mean the term anarchism makes it sound like we have a low view of Of authority of specifically

God ordained authority you mentioned the verse from judges But I would say that we don't have a low view of God ordained authority

We have a very exceptionally high view of God ordained authority to the point that we're willing to Resist Those illegitimate exercises of authority because that actually diminishes authority and creates an injustice and I'm wondering

I'm sorry Go ahead Greg. Oh, well, I'm gonna say as far as using the word why

I don't really shy away from it is In some ways,

I feel it's honest. So if I'm gonna advocate the abolition of this state

Completely which I do People, you know tend to think oh, gee, that's anarchism and I'm like, well, oh

You know, I'm just being honest about it I mean, there's other things that go by anarchism that I can clear by in fact, but Are you there

Gregory you're breaking up Carrie, are you there? I'm here.

Yeah, I don't know why Greg is breaking up Well, you know something this is an opportune time to go to our first break anyway

I don't know perhaps Greg if you're listening you can hang up and recall back in I'm not sure why Greg's phone is acting up But if anybody would like to join us on the air whether you agree with our guests whether you disagree whether you're just not sure

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Please give us as always your first name at least your city and state of residence And your country of residence if you live outside the

USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away We'll be right back with Kerry Baldwin and hopefully Greg Baus on the theme

Libertarianism is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children?

Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine

My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective Try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now

Calm that's get world now calm. I rely on world because I trust the reporting

I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter

I believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth

That's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital

There's no obligation and no credit card required Visit get world now calm today

Also, check out world news groups podcast the world and everything in it at w n g dot org

Forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group dot org forward slash podcast

My name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in los angeles

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor

It's called new covenant church nyc. They are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown manhattan

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

.nyc They believe in a sovereign god who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is

Simply biblical preaching in new york city. I'd like to recommend that you visit new covenant church nyc

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc Have a great day

Tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island

Well, there's good news waiting river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

Featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you

Call them at six three one nine two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one nine two nine

Thirty five twelve or check out their website at wrbc .us

That's I'm james white of alpha omega ministries

The new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers

The nasv is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible translation The nasv offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages

Which the nasv is known for the nasv is available in many editions like a topical reference bible

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues

From compact to giant print bibles find an nasv that fits your needs very affordably at nas bible dot com

Whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the nasb for yourself today go to nas bible .com.

That's nas bible .com Hello, my name is james renahan and i'm the president of irbs theological seminary in mansfield, texas

The word of god says if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing

Do you have the desire to serve jesus christ in pastoral ministry? 20 years ago the institute of reformed baptist studies at westminster seminary california was born

For those two decades these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in reformed baptist churches

But a wonderful partnership Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses

Leading to the master of divinity degree. This is irbs theological seminary We believe that the scriptures of the old and new testaments are the inspired and inerrant word of god

That jesus christ is god in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune god in all things Irbs theological seminary is dedicated by god's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines

Do you sense a call to serve jesus christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider irbs theological seminary?

You'll find more information at irbs seminary .org That's irbs seminary .org

Two s's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you Charles haddon spurgeon once said

Give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

He who never quotes will never be quoted He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future

And to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world Since its beginning in 2001

Solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present

You can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio

James white of alphanomega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough

You know, I have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity

Besides that they feel so good. I'm so delighted. I discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but i'll give it a shot Jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin

Tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition With a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery

Used to rebind a reformation study bible I used as a gift The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather

Making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl

Bible rebinding .com. That's ptl Bible rebinding .com

Welcome back. This is chris arnzen. If you just tuned us in our two guests today Are kerry baldwin and gregory baus.

They are both libertarians And libertarian anarchists to be more specific we are discussing the theme libertarianism

Is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

Chris arnzen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence If you live outside the usa gregory, have you returned?

I'm back. Yes. Hopefully i'll stay with you here. Yeah. Yeah, if you keep getting dropped for some reason just keep calling back um, okay, so just I just wanted to read a portion of scripture and I want you to reply by letting me know if this is still in your mind applicable for the church of jesus christ today

This is romans 13 verses 1 through 5

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which god has established

The authorities that exist have been established by god consequently Whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what god has instituted

And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves for rulers hold no terror for those who do right

But for those who do wrong, do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority then do what is right?

And you will and do what is right and you will be commended for the one in authority is god's servant for your good

But if you do wrong be afraid for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason They are god's servants agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer

Therefore it is necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment, but also as a matter of conscience now, how does the uh christian libertarian anarchist when when you read that how would you respond and Is that something that should still perpetually go on until the lord returns?

Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite bible passages It really is um uh before getting what

I want to do is, uh to present a historic reformed understanding of that passage and how

I think that supports a proper view of the state

Namely a rejection of the state but yet a affirmation of legitimate civil governance um before I got cut off I I wanted to say that uh

Using the term anarchism is a little bit like using the term calvinist when people ask me if i'm religious

I'd like to tell them that i'm a calvinist One they don't know what it means And uh, you know and it's like a convert it's a conversation starter so Actually, it might be more like instead of saying hi i'm chris i'm a calvinist

Uh, hi, i'm chris. I advocated the burning alive of michael cervidius. That might be more of an accurate comparison

Right. Well exactly like it carries some uh baggage you have to deal with I guess all terms do but by the way

I did not I do not I do not advocate the burning of michael cervidius. I want to make that clear That's that's right.

Yeah, we're against that. I'm glad we're on the same page there, but um Well here here's how

I want to uh approach the topic. Um Carrie and I are not theonomists and I want to link to an article uh about why we think that's um a problematic hermeneutic

So that'll be on the page as well um on the mere liberty .com slash romans 13 but uh

The basic interpretation of romans 13 that we follow um

Has been advocated by covenanters Uh, that is the stream of uh, scottish presbyterians who followed the solemn legion covenant, uh other

Establishmentarians also in the reformed faith both continental and uh

British isles what the reformed presbyterian church of north america was basically Based on I don't know how much they continue the rps the

Reformed presbyterians are are today the one of the larger, um existing covenanter groups

They've changed over the years, but in any case um charles hodge uh reflects he he didn't follow through with this viewpoint consistently, but Uh, there are two quotes from him.

I want to mention before getting into the passage in his commentary on romans uh that basically reflect this viewpoint the first thing he said was

Uh paul in this passage romans 13 is speaking of the legitimate design of government

Not the abuse of power by wicked men So in other words paul is not telling us that we need to submit to tyrants or to any unjust laws

Uh, he's not talking about de facto rulers those that are in fact claiming power presently.

He's not talking about god's providential ordination or institution of government but of the prescriptive or legitimate design of governance um the second

Uh quotation from hodge is No command to do anything morally wrong

Can be binding right no command to do anything morally wrong can be binding nor Can any which transcends the rightful authority of the power whence it emanates?

Uh, basically In other words, he's saying it's not only the command to sin

That we don't have to obey when it's issued by any Uh would be authority

But we don't have to obey anything Coming from civil authorities or would -be authorities

Beyond the requirements to act justly and submit to justice because that's the limit on their authority

So if a mugger in the street tells me to hand over my wallet I might do that But not because I have to obey him or that I owe that to him and it's the same with any government

And particularly the state I shouldn't rob or murder people But when the state tells me

I can't cut hair without a license or don't collect rainwater on your own property

They don't actually have that authority And so i'm free to ignore or disobey them and so hodge is recognizing this principle

That's not just commands to sin that we don't have to obey or shouldn't obey

But that there's a limit on the authority given So hodge is representing this historic

Reforms and actually goes back before the reformation in parts What might be called the political resistance view

Of romans 13 and this is also reflected in the westminster confession and the uh london baptist confession

Uh where it talks about things lawful In the westminster confession in chapter 20 section 4 on christian liberty it says uh

It says this because the powers which god has ordained And the liberty which christ has purchased

Are not intended by god to destroy but mutually to uphold and preserve one another

They who oppose any lawful power Where the lawful exercise of it resist the ordinance of god

So this term about um Authority being limited to what is lawful

Is the main idea that's reflected in all the reformed confessions In the belgic confession the second helvetic confession

Has similar language I first encountered this view In a book called a christian manifesto

Written by francis schaeffer in the early 80s 1981, I think

It's more clearly represented in some works that he draws on uh, namely samuel rutherford's

Work lex rex which is latin for law king either rendered as The law is king or sometimes the law and the prince something like that That was 1644.

There's a Another work. Um By a fellow named james m.

Wilson Simply called civil government that was written in 1853 and we'll link those works so people can access them

Uh, those really represent this viewpoint on romans 13 and it's namely this so if we look at that passage that you just read uh, whatever

Terms the translation use use, uh, the powers that be Or the existing or governing authorities in verse one to which we must submit

This doesn't mean the de facto powers who claim authority

Rather the meaning here is only those who god authorizes

That is ordains or institutes, whatever word is being used um

Only those who god ordains are actual legitimate authorities, that's the meaning

So ordain can sometimes in the scripture mean god's providence Whatever falls out, uh in history, whatever actually occurs by god's determination

But it's also that same word is also used for his moral authorization

Right his prescription, so how do we decide how it's being used here?

the context Shows us that it's about god's authorization because the passage goes on to say in verses three and four

It specifies that god only authorizes or or ordains the use of the sword to administer actual civil justice

So in one translation it says Not a terror to good conduct, but to bad approving of the good

God's servant or minister for your good A sword -bearing avenger who carries out god's wrath on the wrongdoer

Right, so if we want to say oh Um god ordains something what is he ordaining he's ordaining the punishment of Violations of justice the commendation of justice

He's god is ordaining the administration of civil justice

So now Uh to sort of head off Perhaps a possible further question or objection when the passage in verse

Verses six and seven says for this reason you must also pay tribute or taxes

Uh for they are god's ministers attending continually upon this very thing. That is the administration of justice

Uh render therefore to all their dues taxes to whom taxes are due and so on Um You'll notice that this passage and no scripture actually ever says that anyone in fact owes a tax

Rather it says if you owe then pay what you owe And this word here for tax can refer to things such as road tolls in which case as Everyone understands if we choose to use a toll road

Then we would owe the toll so Here's here's how this basic interpretation put forward by samuel rutherford and and other

Outstanding reformers Of the reformation era here's the context of romans in which this perspective

Really comes to light and makes sense the previous exhortations in this epistle

To not conform to the world to discern and hold fast to what is good

To abhor evil to avoid vengeance to live at peace um, you could ready readily conclude you can imagine someone might think oh

The government is contrary to these things. It's contrary to god's revealed moral will because They're not about this

That's the world. They're doing what's evil. They're Being vengeful.

They're not at uh supporting peace, etc, etc And uh, so we should resist government but uh

While taking it as granted, of course Paul lives in the real world

That some in positions of power and some forms of power are obviously evil and illegitimate

You know hosea 8 4 says they made kings, but not through me right, so that's against the providential

Mistaken view that somehow romans 13 is referring to whoever happens to actually be in power

Right in that passage god is saying no, he is a king and it wasn't according to my prescriptive will

Mark 10 42 Jesus refers to those who are considered to be rulers of the gentiles

And uh, that word is significant because it means supposed to be but not actually authorities

Paul here Sets out to clarify That despite the evil of the empire and the state

God has nevertheless established a legitimate role for civil governance and that our submission to the sort of government that god prescribes or ordains

Is also in accordance with his moral will um

There are other passages I think that help clarify this understanding of romans 13 for example uh first corinthians 6

We see that paul can't have been referring to the roman empire in romans 13

When he says uh He says to the believers in the church in corinth

He says when one of you has a grievance against another does he dare go go to the law?

before the unrighteous Instead of the saints or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

And if the world is to be judged by you Are you incompetent to trial trivial cases?

Do you not know that you're going to judge angels? How much more than matters pertaining to this life?

So The roman empire the roman so -called rulers here are called unrighteous that is unjust

And therefore they're not legitimate authorities to which believers can submit their civil disputes um if The roman so -called rulers were ministers of god for their good administering justice

Then paul couldn't have forbidden christians from seeking adjudication from them

Um and further on in first corinthians chapter 8 verses 5 and 6

He says for although there May be so -called gods in heaven or on earth

As indeed there are many gods many lords Yet for us there is one god the father from whom are all things

For whom we exist and one lord jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist and so among other things this is to say that Many so -called lords or rulers have no more genuine civil authority from god than so -called gods

Have genuine deity or divinity Let me just ask you a question as a fellow reform believer

Uh, obviously some of our listeners might not be aware of a difference between god's prescriptive will and his decreed will

Obviously sure. Yeah, obviously every single ruler that rises to power Never achieves that elevation in authority without the will of god.

It might not be his prescribed will I mean It's uh, it usually shocks

Not only unbelievers but christians if you were to say something like even hitler Never rose to power apart from the decreed will of god doesn't mean that god was happy with this

It doesn't mean he approved of what hitler did at all and hitler, uh is certainly, uh in hell, but the uh, there is a difference in fact, uh

One can only think of uh, daniel chapter 221 It is he god who changes the times

And the epochs he removes kings and establishes kings uh, so Obviously anybody who's in authority is there because it was a part of the will of god

But his decreed will I'm assuming you agree with that because obviously as a reformed christian nothing is out of the orbit of god's authority sovereignty and control

That's right, and so when I was referring to providential Coordination that that's what I mean. So providence as the execution of god's decree in history.

That's right Okay Well, we're going to go to our midway break and when we come back from the break you can finalize and summarize anything

You want to say before kerry? Uh begins her portion on the pro The defense of the life of the unborn and how it is compatible with libertarian philosophy and ideology

Uh if this is a longer than normal break This is the break that grace life radio 90 .1

fm in lake city florida requires of us Because they need to localize iron trip and zine radio to lake city florida

And uh, so therefore, uh, it's a longer than normal break. They air their own public service announcements and commercials

While we air our own commercials So take this time and use it wisely write down questions for kerry and gregory on libertarianism

And also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them

We depend on the advertising dollars of our sponsors so, please

Patronize them as often as you can and as heavily as you can so that they will continue Advertising on iron trip and zine radio, which means subsequently

God willing we will continue to exist so if you have any uh questions for our guests

Send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and as always give us your first name city and state

And country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages Iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania

Solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering Understanding and exceeding your expectations

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results Solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors

Roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate Call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time

Call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981

Or visit solidrockremodeling .com That's solidrockremodeling .com

Solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home Hi, i'm stefan limblad assistant professor of systematic theology at irbs theological seminary in mansfield, texas

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because i'm firmly convinced that the people of god

In the churches of our lord. Jesus christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of holy scripture

I'm excited to be teaching Such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of jesus christ

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths Indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of god's people

If you want to learn more about our program visit us online at irbsseminary .org

Iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore

Harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 For generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word

An additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington and easily accessible

Scores of notable christian groups frequently plan conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators

Intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals

Find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org Hcbible .org

Call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689

Harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives I'm, dr.

Gary kimbrough pastor bethlehem baptist church in laurel, mississippi God tells us in james 1 27 that pure non -defiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction

And the providence of god three years ago. I discovered a poor small church outside lusaka Zambia in a township called cabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding. What was I to do? Could I just say god bless you and walk away the situation of the children said heavily upon me

As I was praying concerning this need it came to me I trust from the lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience the entire need for their clothing food

Education and some medical services is 73 dollars per month per child If just 50 of us would give 35 a month we could meet the need

Bethlehem baptist church will pay the fee to get the funds there So if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans in this season of hope and giving will you consider giving hope?

to 24 orphans Please send your gift of any amount to bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel, mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com

Again, the address is bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel, mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

I want to tell you about a man. I have personally known for many years His name is dan. But if you go dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer

But not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself

Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible Ravi, zacharias wrote the foreword

Dan also has a master's degree in theology Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

He represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer

He wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more

And in approximately 10 different states In illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york

His case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call dan Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win

Dan buttafuco's number is one eight hundred six six nine four eight seven eight one eight hundred six six nine

Four eight seven eight or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com My name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in los angeles

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor

It's called new covenant church nyc They are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc .nyc

nyc They believe in a sovereign god who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is

Simply biblical preaching in new york city. I'd like to recommend that you visit new covenant church nyc

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc Have a great day

One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers

I know you all use batteries every day. So i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use batterydepot .com

for all your battery needs At batterydepot .com They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man In other words They'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new dependable and affordable

Ordering from batterydepot .com Ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries.

You can count on to work properly at competitive prices Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios pcs

Laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes gps's mp3 players watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to batterydepot .com

next day shipping available All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties call 866 -403 -3768

That's 866 -403 -3768 Or go to batterydepot .com

That's batterydepot .com Did you know that all believers are priests and 1st

Peter chapter 2 verse 9 the Apostle Peter describes Christ's Church as Comprising a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for God's own

Possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light

So if you're a Christian, you're also a priest now You can find the newest styles in Reformed and Protestant apparel at citizenpriest .com

Citizenpriest .com specializes in Christian themed t -shirts and clothing especially for Reformed Christians citizenpriest .com's

merchandise is purposefully scripture based and meant for the edification of the Saints and the furtherance of the gospel

Let everyone know that you stand firm on the doctrines of the Reformed faith by wearing apparel from citizenpriest .com

visit citizenpriest .com today Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I would like to introduce you to my good friends

Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices Unlike other book sites.

They make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly Much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic

Heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors. Their website is

CVBBS .com browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and Purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you the church and to Christ That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com

That's CVBBS .com let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio

I'm James white of Alpha Omega ministries The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers

The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages

Which the NASB is known for the NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues From compacted giant print

Bibles find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NAS Bible Calm whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the

NASB for yourself today. Go to NAS Bible calm That's NAS Bible calm

And please don't forget that if your church is in need of new pew Bibles If your old pew

Bibles are filled with children's graffiti and falling apart or perhaps you don't even have a pew

Bibles to begin with or you perhaps want to change to a more biblically faithful modern translation of the scriptures then please go to NAS Bible calm

NAS Bible calm and If you are not in a position to make that kind of a decision in your church

Please approach your deacons or pastors or elders Whoever it is at your local congregation who makes the decision to replace your pew

Bibles or purchase Pew Bibles to begin with if you don't have any please tell them about NAS Bible calm and Please also remember to tell the folks at the

NAS Bible calm That you heard about them from Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio we want to thank the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible at NAS Bible calm for renewing their advertising sponsorship on iron sharpens iron radio and for sticking with us all these years since 2005 when we first launched the program and also even being with us before then since 1995 when we began orchestrating public debates and other theological events

The New American Standard Bible publishers have been there with me ever since and Funding these events in part.

So we thank them from the bottom of our hearts. That's NAS Bible calm NAS Bible calm before I return

To our guests Carrie Baldwin and Gregory Bous on the theme that we are addressing today

Libertarianism, is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? We just have some

Upcoming events that we want you to attend that we want to announce here First of all coming up on Saturday, March 30th at 6 30 p .m

There's going to be a debate between my friend pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville and Roman Catholic apologist

Matthew Luke Broderick on the theme purgatory. Is it biblical at Saturday March 30th 6 30 p .m

At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York on 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville if you want more details on this event go to WOT church .com

WOT which stands for word of truth church .com. That's WOT church .com or call 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 1 4

That's 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 1 4 then coming up after that the next

Iron Sherpens Iron Radio pastors luncheon is going to be held. God willing at the

Carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall Featuring my good friend. Dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he is going to be speaking on how the

Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the Bible and This is free for all men in ministry leadership

Whether you are a pastor an elder and I have to think those are the same office Deacon or any other man in ministry leadership.

It could even be parachurch ministry leadership. It's absolutely free of charge The food is free.

The message from dr Tony Costa is free and the fun fellowship is free

And also you're going to be getting a sack filled with free brand new books That I have selected from major publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom Each man leaves with about 20 to 30 free books hundreds of dollars worth of free books which have been donated by nearly every major publisher in Existence every major Christian publisher that is so if you want to attend to send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and we will put you on the registration list to attend the free pastors luncheon for Iron Sherpens Iron Radio that is

May 23rd Thursday, May 23rd from 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania Then after that we've got on May 28th through the 30th

The banner of truth is having their East Coast ministers conference. I will be there God willing on the theme

I believe in the Holy Spirit the speakers include Jeff Kingswood Terry Johnson David Vaughn Steve Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries Michael Morales and Chad Vegas, that's

May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania more specifically at the

Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania And it is on the theme as I said,

I believe in the Holy Spirit For more details and to register go to banner of truth org banner of truth org

Click on events and then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference There are other conferences listed there in other parts of the

United States and the United Kingdom So if you live closer to any of those events feel free to register for those instead

But if you'd like to be at the same conference where I will be attending Please go to the East Coast ministers conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania May 28th through the 30th

That's banner of truth org and click on events Then coming up in December the 19th and the 20th of December One of my favorite conferences is returning to Manhattan.

That's the foundations conference and This is a conference orchestrated by sermon audio .com.

Many of you are familiar with that wonderful Ministry which has the finest in preaching and teaching sermon audio .com

Well, their next foundations conference is going to be held as I said in Manhattan December 19th and 20th featuring dr

Steven J. Lawson who you just heard not long ago advertising New Covenant Church, NYC one of our advertisers

Dr. Lawson is founder of one passion ministries and one of the finest preachers on the planet Earth Reverend Jeff Thomas another extraordinary preacher retired pastor from Wales Author and if you've never heard him, you've got to travel by train plane or automobile.

However, you can get there to hear Jeff Thomas He's extraordinary Richard Caldwell jr.

Reverend Armin Tomassian who I think is going to be a household name amongst reformed Christians at least Globally within the next decade.

He's a young man, but he is got wisdom and power and gifts beyond his years a young pastor in the

Free Presbyterian Church of North America I really really enjoy that brother's preaching and teaching his he is also extraordinary

Andrew Quigley and also Paul Washer has just joined the lineup at the foundations conference

That's December 19th and the 20th in Manhattan for more details. Go to the foundations conference calm the foundations conference calm and I would register as quickly as you can because the venue only holds about 200 people maximum and they will definitely quickly sell out so I would register as quickly as possible if you intend to attend if you intend to attend and Also last but not least if you love iron sharpens iron radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves

You love the guests and topics that we feature that sometimes are never heard anywhere else You love sharing the free downloadable mp3s to your family friends and loved ones then please help us remain on the air by going to iron sharpens iron radio .com

Click support then click click to donate now You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion

You could also mail in a check the old -fashioned way if you prefer snail mail an address will appear on the screen

When you click on support at iron sharpens iron radio .com So you can send in a check to that address made up to iron sharpens iron radio

Please never ever ever siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church to give to iron sharpens iron radio

Never do that Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving the iron sharpens iron radio

Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home Providing for my radio show is not a command of God obviously

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love this show Please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

click support then click click to donate now and help us remain on the air We urgently need your

Bennett your generous gifts as well as your advertising dollars because we have urgent bills that need to be paid

And also if you need to or if you want to advertise with us Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you are Promoting is compatible with what

I believe then we will definitely help you launch an ad campaign because we truly do need your advertising dollars it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

put advertising in the subject line and If you are not a member of a local

Bible believing church, and you're not prayerfully seeking for one You are living in rebellion against God So please rectify that situation if you need help finding a good solid biblically faithful church near you

Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and I have lists of churches all over the world that are biblically faithful churches

And I have already helped quite a number of people in the audience find churches near them And some of my listeners have actually joined those churches and also people who have gone on vacation have asked me

For good churches, and I could recommend those as well wherever you're going It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church home in the subject line That is also the email address where you could send in a question to our guests today that would be

Kerry Baldwin and also Gregory Baus and we are discussing libertarianism Is it compatible with a reformed theology in the defense of the rights of unborn children?

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com and Gregory Baus if you want to wrap up and summarize what you wanted to say about Libertarianism being compatible with reformed theology before we move on to the rights of the unborn

Predominantly with our guest Kerry Baldwin. Yeah and as a way to Move into that topic.

I'm going to have some notes regarding what I've said at Kerry's website Which is mereliberty .com

slash Romans 13 Kerry should have some relevant resources at mereliberty .com

slash abortion In any case what I was just saying is basically that Those who by God's sovereign control of history may be in positions of power are not necessarily those who have

God's moral authorization or Ordination according to Scripture God's Word doesn't require our submission to unjust

So -called rulers the sword -bearing power that is ordained of God According to Romans 13 is the administration of civil justice punishing criminals defending victims of crime

Now we recognize that the state as a monopoly Involving initiation of coercion is inherently unjust and is therefore not authorized or ordained by God given this

Christian view of the state We believe Christians Can have a better understanding of what it takes to promote the abolition of abortion in our current situation and I think

Kerry has done a great job at thinking through these things and Helping us consider how we can have a better view

Great Kerry, do you want to now pick up the baton and begin with explaining why?

Libertarianism and especially your brand of it your version of it libertarian anarchism would be

In your mind the most ideal way To lessen if not wipe out the sin of abortion obviously

Thinking that if you're a reformed Christian as I am that ultimately the conversion of the lost is the way that Societies are transformed

Men ruling over other men who are all sinful whether they are an authority or they are subjects to that authority

Rarely have made much improvement in this world. Although some improvement has been made here and there but there's always sin

Going to be contended with here, but if you could pick up the baton now and discuss why?

first of all Why this pro -life movement or should I say? defense of the life of the unborn

Has become such a passion of yours in your life Sir Well, the mission of my blog is to challenge and rethink prevailing paradigms and you know

We've certainly done that already with with Gregory's presentation of libertarian anarchism

But as a particular example or topic I think abortion is a great place to start with this because it encompasses questions of human rights and property rights and personal responsibility

Legal concerns which I think includes challenging the role the state has played in perpetuating abortion in a culture of death but it also allows us to challenge what the

What the proper response from Christians is and that is that includes our particular views about how we view women

So not just the unborn but women as well. So I actually grew up In the pro -life movement.

I spent a lot of time in it. I was an active participant in one former or another until college

I eventually got married and I had three kids But that marriage turned out to be abusive and I lived in relative poverty for the vast majority of it so being a

Being pregnant and the mother in a bad marriage gives me a firsthand Appreciation of the fears that surround poverty and bad relationships.

These are the top two reasons women give for seeking abortion So when

I hear those in the pro -life movement like just urban for example Who have a tendency to dismiss the reasons women give for seeking abortion?

I have to say Wait, stop. Wait a minute The most critical person standing between the baby and the rest of the world is the woman and though I would

Though I agree that we shouldn't justify abortion on the reasons women give Give for getting abortions.

We do have good reason to believe that these motivators are real and that they can be resolved.

So Oftentimes when I bring up Paying attention to the concerns of women.

I'm often labeled a feminist and so I kind of want to Just say at the outset

I do I am NOT a feminist I do support equal rights of women, but I oppose feminism in part

There are several reasons but in part because feminism seeks state -sanctioned privileges for women over and above Actual rights and I don't believe that abortion is an actual right

So by the way, I just want to I just want to quickly interject a little bit of a caveat here

Folks who listen to this show know that I am a friend of Jeff Durbin doesn't mean I necessarily agree with every single thing he says or does but I do applaud him for his work at the abortion mills and I Do believe that they all he also

Does have a lot in common with our guests that Jeff is a libertarian perhaps not the same stripe as Our guests but he does profess to be a libertarian

He has also been greatly inspired by Ron Paul as have our guests. So I just wanted to throw that in there

To make sure that people didn't necessarily Think that I was on board with every criticism.

You're saying about Jeff. I just wanted to make sure that was clear Yeah, and I I'm going to explain where where I'm in agreement with Jeff because I'm not completely opposed to him either

But I do want to say at the outset, you know, I'm not a feminist I don't support safe legal and rare I'm not an incrementalist

And so I just I want to put those things out ahead so that as I'm going through my explanation

You know the tendency especially with these Volatile issues is to say well if you're not with us, you're against us and I want to sort of mitigate that a little bit

I have been constructively critical of both sides of this debate and I've received positive feedback from both sides

Now where I'm in agreement with Jeff Durbin Is that we both agree that abortion is murder.

It's Sinful it's immoral. It should not be legal It denies the basic human rights of the fetus and in fact my last two episodes on Abortion my last two podcast episodes on dare to think

I go beyond the moral argument against abortion and give a defense for why libertarianism itself is necessarily pro -life and Rather than being inherently pro -choice, which is the common belief and this is more of a legal rights argument

I also agree with Jeff Durbin that the pro -life movement is fragmented And it's inefficient and it's fatally flawed

And we are we also believe that there needs to be a paradigm shift in the culture What we disagree on is about how that shift must take place

So that's the disagreement is going to be over the question of whether legislative bans are going to end abortion and I would say that a legislative ban is not

The sum of Of our of our strategy to abolish

Abortion that in and of itself is not going to actually end it I see abortion as a

Canary in the coal mine. It's an indicator of a more dynamic problem at the very least it involves economic factors psychological emotional factors interpersonal factors and of course

We need to have an actual understanding of how to accurately identify the rights of both mom and baby

Now the Bible I think actually gives us some wisdom in In how to move forward and the fact that we can't

Ignore these other factors or reduce them to just if all the results of sin

Ecclesiastes 7 verses 7 through 10, which reads Surely oppression drives the wise into madness

Better is the end of a thing than its beginning and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit

Be not quick in your spirit to become angry for anger lodges in the heart of fools

They not why were the former days better than these or it is not from wisdom that you ask this so the pro -life movement centers on the notion that life for women in the unborn was better prior to Roe v.

Wade and The solution is to get back there and we need to find the quickest route possible

But I think that the wisdom of Scripture says No, sure.

We can agree that it's better to end the practice of abortion than to have it Than to have had it begun in the first pit in the first place

But Ecclesiastes cautions us that acting hastily to revert back to former days of foolishness and even leads to sin

So the oppression of women and the unborn have driven the wise into madness. I think that for life incrementalism, which is economic regulations and sanctions on the abortion industry

Falls under that that's essentially a conservative form of thought socialism and it fails utterly to prevent abortion

Um, but also current proposed bans on abortion do not accurately

Identify rights and are likely to produce greater oppression and not build justice

So this is what Ecclesiastes is warning us about our zeal even for a good cause can lead to sin

Well, can I do it can I quickly read a question from a listener Sure, yeah, okay we have

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who says Regardless of what you believe the ultimate solution to abortion is or should

I say to end it is? wouldn't legislative preventatives at least be hurdles and stumbling blocks that would lessen

The number of murders of unborn children until the ultimate goal is reached by the means that you believe to be biblical right, and I Support measures to reduce the demand of abortion so that we can bring those numbers down And I'm going to talk a little bit later about where those numbers are actually at One of the problems with incrementalist legislation is that is that it only deals with the supply side of economics

And I'm going to be talking about the economic aspects because I think that that is where That is where we can we can really push and influence

Actual, you know and promote the the abolition of abortion But I want to touch on Just banning it the legislative ban of it outright, which is which is what

Jeff Durbin has been proposing Okay, can we pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our final break

It's gonna be a lot fast. It's gonna be a lot more brief than the last break But if anybody would like to join us on the air

Do it now or forever. Hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages

Financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization We help

Christians be wise with money and live generously every day And for the fourth year in a row

We were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere Institute a leading international think -tank dedicated to the creation

Advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics Contact me

Mike Gallagher financial consultant at 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3 again 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3 to learn more about the thriving difference

So much more Lending faith finances and generosity.

That's the private story Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

Apostles priority, it must not be ours either We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if You live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area.

Please come and join us for worship and fellowship You can call us at 508 528 575.

Oh, that's 508 528 575 oh or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

TV program Entitled resting in grace. You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org

That's Providence Baptist Church ma org or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts

Long Island Youth for Christ Staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the

Country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call

Long Island Youth for Christ at 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 that's 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 or visit liyfc .org

That's liyfc .org I'm pastor

Billy Linhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas And I'm thrilled to have joined the iron sharpens iron radio family of sponsors

We fully subscribe to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of the most vital biblical truths

Desire to worship the triune God of the Holy Scriptures in spirit and truth and seek to make his glory known in the

Concho Valley West Texas and beyond Sovereign Grace PBC of San Angelo purposes to center our worship on the

Holy Scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ in the hope that he will grow us in love and the unity of truth

After Sunday services join us for a fellowship meal followed by our ladies fellowship and our children's

Sunday school class If you're looking for a church in West, Texas That's serious about the Word of God and worship that pleases him come visit us for details about Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas email sgbcsa at gmail .com

or visit us at sgbcsa .com That's sgbcsa .com

You Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas The Word of God says if a man desires the office of an overseer he desires a good thing

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? 20 years ago the

Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born for those two decades

These institutions work together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist Churches.

It's been a wonderful partnership Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses

Leading to the Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary We believe that the scriptures of the

Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God That Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection

And that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune God in all things IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines

Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider

IRBS Theological Seminary? You'll find more information at IRBS seminary .org

That's IRBS seminary .org two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon.

God bless you My name is Steve Lawson founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the

Master's Seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students

Andy Woodard serves as the pastor It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a

Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown, Manhattan You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

.nyc They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

New Covenant Church, NYC Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

.nyc Have a great day Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble

Spiritually, even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup

Sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace

You need not fear listening 24 hours a day to first love radio org

They feature Christ centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness

Such as dr. W are downing dr. Peter masters pastor Joe Jackowitz pastor

Robert Gifford Al Martin Edward Delpore and more first love radio org also live streams

My iron sharpens iron radio program daily Please stick around on first love radio org after iron sharpens iron radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace spread the word about first love radio org and The founder and president of first love radio will be our guest tomorrow.

That's Joe Jackowitz He's going to be accompanied by Tom Evans the president of family radio and they're going to continue

Discussions that we previously aired on the transformation of family radio and the repentance of those involved in management at family radio for their past association and promotion of the heresies of Harold camping and They have purged the network of Harold campings dangerous teachings and we're going to be getting more updates on family radio tomorrow

That's 4 to 6 p .m. Easter time here on iron sharpens iron radio now We are back with the final 20 minutes of our interview with Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus On our discussion of libertarianism

Is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? If you want to ask us a question

Send us an email now Chris Arnsen at gmail .com and we do have a few people waiting or ready to have their questions asked Hopefully we'll be able to get to some of you before the show is over.

But that's Chris Arnsen at gmail .com Is the email address and if you could carry pick up where you left off about?

the legislation legislative and of abortion

Nationwide how you have some problems with that Okay, so What I think

I want your listeners to Realize is that I want I'm going to be talking about abortion in ways that maybe they have not heard

So frequently, so I'm not going to be regurgitating a lot of the typical pro -life arguments

So immediately I want to talk about two different things. I want to talk about abortion services

Which is what women speak when they have unwanted pregnancies and then I'm also going to be talking about the commodity of aborted fetal tissue

Which is something that medical researchers speak So This is part of the reason why the legislative ban isn't going to Have the effect that we're looking for.

It's not going to have the deterrence effect first of all I don't think it's likely that that that that kind of legislation is going to pass and the reason why is because the

Those interested parties in the aborted fetal tissue industry, which is your medical research

So this is research into diabetes Parkinson's disease Alzheimer's cancer It's used heavily in the development of vaccines and has been used since the 1960s

So we have to realize that this isn't just about the demand for abortion services by women

That demand is offset by the demand by the market for aborted fetal tissue

So the way to actually end abortion to stop abortion is

To deal with the demand for it Now I want to talk a little bit more about Roe v.

Wade Because Jeff Durbin is correct about Roe v. Wade and and it's this Roe v.

Wade is irrelevant and the pro -abortion side is actually proving this right now with all of this up -to -birth

Abortion legislation that they're passing Roe v. Wade basically supports the right to abort in the first trimester

It permits regulation of abortion in the second trimester based on the state's interest

Okay, and then in the third trimester Roe actually protects fetal rights as long as it's in the state's interest

So if Roe v. Wade is the standard bearer for constitutionality of abortion

Then late -term abortion is actually unconstitutional according to Roe So the pro -abortion camp knows what the anti -abortion camp knows.

The SCOTUS ruling on Roe v. Wade is irrelevant The states do not have to abide by Roe v.

Wade But I say this because I don't want pro -lifers to continue to put false hopes in the state

And in this legislation because whatever tactics we use to end the legal practice of abortion can be used and are being used by pro -abortion advocates to perpetuate it

Now politics aside every now and then Pro -lifers like to point out that we would never permit the murder of foreign children

And there's actually a legal term for this it's called philocybe and What's interesting is that we have research on the motivations for philocybe as well and those

Are very closely correlated to the reasons women give for abortion

Nearly half of the philocybe cases again. This is parents murdering their own born children

Nearly half of philocybe cases are for quote altruistic reasons That's ending a child's suffering because of disease or economic hardship or domestic violence

So by comparing the motives for abortion to the motives for philocybe

We can see there's some some credence to these motivations again. We're not justifying murder

But there is some credibility to the reasons why women and parents do this to their children so we

We certainly wouldn't want and I want to Bear in mind that that Passage from Ecclesiastes, which is telling us don't ask act hastily

Because we can we can sin in that in our zeal We certainly wouldn't want the unintended consequences of legal prohibition of abortion to wind up increasing the rates of philocybe

So the Position that I take the stuff that's different from just urban is to Remove from our strategy dependence on the state

And that kind of that's going to give us a clearer roadmap for how to move forward I don't believe that the legal status of abortion should change the pro -life mission

Our mindset should be that of first century Christians In fact in the first century it was legally permissible for fathers to kill their children

And you we don't have any examples of Christians infiltrating the Roman Senate to enact laws about that Regardless of whatever we had in the past with With the

American form of government, but the the government that we have today is anti -christian so if we

If we can accept that and and realize that we cannot depend upon them for our strategy

Then what we're left with is actually a great deal of knowledge about why abortion happens

And we have knowledge of how to resolve those reasons so I Would say that libertarian anarchism does have a first of all it has a legal order

I believe it has a superior legal order in which life liberty and property actually stand a chance

But there are no Guarantees neither civil governance under the state nor statelessness can guarantee abortion will be

Permanently and perpetually illegal, right? We do believe that That the state has actually enabled abortion and so chances are better under an anarchist legal order that The Unborn life will be protected now beyond that.

I want to get into The actual strategy which is dealing with the market and economic freedom

Economic freedom produces the necessary conditions for lifting everybody but particularly women out of poverty

And it provides the necessary conditions for competition Which is how we need to find ethical alternatives to the use of fetal tissue and medical research now

These two things happen at the same time as we're lifted out of poverty competition causes shifts and demands for things

So let me give you an example The invention of the personal computer changed the world

But there was one bit of software specifically that changed the personal computer and that was

Windows 95 But why don't we see copies of Windows 95 still available for sale?

Because it's obsolete right the market came up with something better Windows 95 got replaced

So this is how we need to think of abortion. We ask ourselves. Why is there a demand and How do we just how do we satisfy that demand in such a way that it makes abortion go the way of Windows 95?

so Go ahead. I was just going to ask you if you think that you've come up with those answers yet Um Specifically So that's that's a harder question to answer just because the market's going to to React in whatever way it reacts like you can't predict the exact ways that the market responds and I'll give you an example

And I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit, but this is this is relevant, so Let's say

You are you own a logging company you've been cutting down trees if you run out of trees

You've got a business, right? Right, so you need to replenish you need to replenish your supply your supply

By growing new trees or by moving to another area to harvest other trees

The research resources are nestled necessarily scarce meaning There's a limitation on how much you can use at a given time and in a given time

And to maintain that supply those resources must be replenished So depending upon degree of scarcity this will have an effect on the market supply and on pricing

So let's go back to abortion and specifically Fetal tissue is a commodity

So What is one thing that fetal tissue is used in the production of it's in current supply?

Current currently in large supply right now, and there's also a high demand for it. You know what that is What's that?

It's vaccine Now I don't want to have a vaccine debate here I want to I want to use some data points to sort of To show the connection between abortion and and the market so I'm looking at the economic side of things so Currently we are talking there is also a public debate on abortion or excuse me on vaccines and Just as a data point by a comparison in 1983 an 18 year old would have received a total of 24 doses of Vaccination in 2017 an 18 year old received 69 doses

So right or wrong effective or not. I'm not here to make a statement about that I merely want to point out the economic demand for vaccines has increased and Aborted fetal tissue has been used in the production of vaccines since the 1960s.

So that's even prior to Roe v. Wade So But there's also something happening with a supply of fetal tissue

We've actually hit historic lows for abortion There the rates of abortion are actually lower today than they were prior to Roe v.

Wade Really, so if we yes So and gut matcher reports this now gut matcher suspects that it's because of increased use of birth control.

We don't really know this they're Surmising this because there's an increase in insurance payouts for her hormonal birth control since the

Affordable Care Act was rolled out But there's another historic low that people don't

Talk about so much. You can you can find this Readily reported and that is that Millennials are having less sex than the previous generation so you have young people who is who are also the

Most likely to To seek abortion is between the ages of 18 and 24

But there's a reduction in the number of those people who are having sex really

Yes Reduction and and it's not for and I'll link this in the show notes This is the thing that you thought you asked about those reasons that will will reduce the market, right?

the reason why Millennials are not having less sex it. I'll tell you just straight off the bat.

It's not because why they are having less sex Sorry, sorry.

Yes, why they invent why they are having less That's right. It is not because they found Christ and and have had a moral epiphany

Okay, there there are reasons why this is happening and I'll link that in the notes But the reason why

I bring this up is because first of all the market is responding And it's responding in a way that we couldn't predict

In so far as you know, the specific reasons like why Millennials are having less sex and What's the actual cause of the historic lows of abortions are?

But You have a demand for Vaccines you have an increased demand from vaccines from 1983 and I believe that and I'll have to look at the numbers for this, but I believe that The written the rates of abortion maxed out.

I want to say in the late 80s early 90s and Then they started to go downhill from there.

But yeah right now as of now today We have a lower rate of abortion than than prior to row and prior to row

They were manufacturing Vaccines enough vaccine so that you could have 24 doses by the time you're 18 now

They need to manufacture enough vaccines that you have 69 by the time you're 18. So guess what they have a decreased supply of aborted fetal tissue

Does that make sense yeah Okay, so I'm bringing up the act in the economic side of this

Because and I've sort of gone off on a rabbit trail, but I want to wrap this up The economy is something that we can actually influence both as consumers and producers

We have more power to influence the economy than we have to influence Congress or state legislatures

I Think our contention is that libertarianism is not merely compatible with Christianity or reformed theology but that libertarianism promotes life and human rights at all stages and its

Principles of economic freedom can promote the abolition of abortion In its truest sense, so not just a legal ban on abortion

But actually reduce the felt need and the incidence of abortion

If you want to if you want a woman to freely voluntarily choose life

Then the pro -life the pro -life mission is it's clear you advocate for the free market, which is proven to reduce poverty and the felt need for abortion and Here's the kicker is even pro -choice libertarians and those pro -choice free market capitalists

Are actually and with unwitting allies in this effort Because that movement towards the free market is going to reduce the cost of motherhood it's going to Increase innovations that provide the means for mothers to commit to raising their children

Okay, so this is things everything from you know, your household appliances like the washer and dryer with a huge innovation for for mothers

But also personal computer and mobile devices that allows me to homeschool my children from home while I work from home

But the free market also produces the the conditions necessary for that competition in The field of medical research and getting alternative versus to for tissue research

So the free market is going to deal with both the demand For abortion services from women from women and also the demand for aborted fetal tissue from the medical industry

And this is this is the paradigm shift that can actually make the legal band stick

But the legal bands can't produce the shift It must come from the shift the paradigm shift must happen from the ground up not from the top down It has to happen from the market not from the state

It sounds like what you're saying it reflects a lot of what Ron Paul Says about alternatives to building a wall to prevent illegal immigration.

There seems to be a lot of similarity there. Oh I'm sure there is You know,

I I would think that that you know, Ron Paul is probably probably saying that immigration isn't isn't

Isn't a bad thing, but we should deal with it in a market way instead of you know, using the state to try and Literally wedge a wall between us and an immigrant.

I don't think anybody thinks that immigration is a bad thing It's a legal immigration that people have a problem with yeah, and it's actually the state that makes immigration a problem and right

Wait, but we are you know, but okay finish your thought because we're rapidly running out of time

Well, I was gonna say we don't we want to encourage those who support the abolition of abortion to turn their eyes away from hopes in the state and Think smarter

We can think better about how to tackle these problems. Well, perhaps I'm sorry good

I just want to say one more thing because I know you said that there were some questions waiting Um, I'm more than happy to answer questions from the audience after the show is over If you guys want to forward those questions to my email,

I'll let the listeners carry. I'll do I'll let the listeners. Yeah Yeah, that's fine. My my email address.

My direct email is Carrie K Er or why at mere Liberty comm so any of those who are sort of waiting in the queue or for questions

Please feel free to email me those and I'm happy to answer them. Well, perhaps one day we could have a nice roundtable discussion where you two are

Having a conversation on iron sharpens iron radio with Jeff Durbin and somebody else who is one of his allies

So we could just have both sides represented and I want to make sure that Our listeners have all of the information that they need to get a hold of you.

First of all carry Your website is mere Liberty comm mere

Liberty comm and Gregory, what would you like to announce as far as getting a hold of you?

Well, my information will be at the Subsection site whatever mere

Liberty comm slash Romans 13 I'll have contact information for myself there

But people are free to email me as well. My email address is ideologue.

I d -e -o l -o -g ideologue at gmail .com

and I'd be happy to talk more about the Reformed view of stateless civil governance great and we are out of time

I want to thank you both for being on the program today I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives