March 19, 2019 Show with Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus on “Libertarianism: Is It Compatible With Reformed Theology & the Defense of the Rights of Unborn Children?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at Ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of March 2019 and we're gonna have

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I'm sure a fascinating discussion today something that I don't address regularly Although I have addressed it on the program in the past We're going to be talking about libertarianism

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I happen to be libertarian leaning myself a right -leaning libertarian, but I know that this group is not monolithic there are differences of opinion just like there are in most subjects in life whether they be politics or Theology or other areas of importance and libertarianism is no different.

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But today we're specifically going to be addressing Libertarianism is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of Unborn children to discuss this issue are two libertarians

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We have first Carrie Baldwin who is an independent researcher and writer with a

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Bachelor of Arts in philosophy she is the host of the website mere liberty comm a regular contributor for the

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Libertarian Christian Institute a Confessionally Reformed Christian and member of the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and she's an outspoken libertarian and defender of Christian Orthodoxy and developed the podcasts women

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Christianity and libertarianism dare to think and Flashes of Liberty and first of all, let me welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio

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Carrie Baldwin Thank You Chris, I'm really glad to be here

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It's great to have you here and also joining us for the first time ever on iron sharpens iron radio is

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Gregory Baus he is a freelance itinerant a teacher a current grad student at Northwest University in South Africa and an independent researcher on the topic of a reformed view of stateless civil governance, which is also known as libertarian anarchism and He is also going to be addressing the theme that I already mentioned

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Libertarianism is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children and one of the reasons

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I am even conducting this program today is because Libertarianism is not really given a voice nearly as much as Mainstream Republican and Democratic ideology, although even those two parties are not monoliths either

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But I can say though when I first started this program in 2005 you heard hardly ever heard a

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Libertarian opinion in the major media, but it is increasing but I think that today we're gonna hear opinions that might even

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Be different from you from what you hear from libertarians That you may occasionally hear on Fox News or other places

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But first of all as we always do or at least we usually do on iron sharpens iron radio when we have first -time guests

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We have them give a summary of their salvation Testimony, and if you could carry bold and we'll start with you

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What kind of a religious atmosphere were you raised in if any and what kind of providential?

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Circumstances that our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and save you I Grew up in the

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Lutheran Church, the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. I was baptized catechized and confirmed and saved there

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So as a good Lutheran girl, if you asked me when I was saved, I would tell you when I was three months old I found reformed theology in about 2006

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I was doing some Independent research shall we say on the doctrine of baptism specifically infant baptism and I found that through dr.

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RC sprawl so eventually, I became a member of my local

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OPC in about 2014 but I've grown up in the church and Have always known that God is my

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Heavenly Father and that I'm a sinner in need of of salvation, so Praise God, and how did you become interested in libertarianism?

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And in fact, not only become interested in it you dived into it with full force and are very very actively involved in promoting

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Right, so Politically I was a Republican. I grew up in a

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Republican family and remained so until about 2008 during the presidential primaries

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That was that was the first year that I had the opportunity to vote in a presidential primary

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And there were so many options in the Republican Party at that point I didn't know how to choose and I got this wild crazy idea that I should look up the

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Constitution to tell me what the executive office is for and Lo and behold these the only candidates up there who was following the

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Constitution was Ron Paul so Ron Paul is the one who introduced me to libertarianism and Eventually, I became an anarchist in about 2017, but I started writing about libertarianism back in 2012 and Now if we could

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Gregory Baus Have your the summary of how our Lord saved you what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in etc

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Sure And I hope I don't have any technical difficulties here

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You're going in and out a little bit for me. Really you sound you sound perfect both of you sound perfect So I'm not sure.

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I don't know why I'm going in and out. It's not on my end. I can't hear anything like that I'm okay. All right, maybe it's mine.

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But in any case I Was also born and raised in a Christian home my parents were converted in young adulthood and So they entered an

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Orthodox Presbyterian congregation as well before I was born and so I was also catechized and reformed faith and I became a communicate member at a fairly young age at about nine years, but There was never a time when

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I didn't know and love the Lord that I can remember Although I'd say when

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I was about 15 the particulars of the reformed faith

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Were impressed on me in a new way I had read the Confession was reading

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Calvin's Institutes and this kind of thing and I became pretty gung -ho for Reformed distinctives at least by that time

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Great well Kerry mentioned a key word here that might separate you.

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In fact, it's more than might separate you does separate you two from Some more

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I guess mainstream libertarians and you you use the word anarchist and of course

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Many people have all kinds of images that come to mind when it comes to anarchists

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They might think immediately as I perhaps did the sex pistols Think of people carrying torch

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People carrying torches in the streets and you know throwing people out of their government offices and just rioting and and in fact someone might even have

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Judges 2125 come to mind in those days. There was no king in Israel and everyone did was what was right in his own mind or his own eyes but if you could explain specifically what that is and then we'll gonna have the way that our guests want to address this twofold subject which is

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Libertarianism is a compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children. We're gonna have

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Gregory is going to be dealing primarily with the aspect of how this is a

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Compatible ideology with reformed theology and then the second hour we're gonna have Kerry predominantly

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Handle the issue of the defense of the rights of the unborn But of course they can both jump in during each hour

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But if you could either either one of you that wants to jump in first about this idea of anarchism well,

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I I'd like to Get into the biblical text right away, but I guess beforehand

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It's a good idea to explain what we think the scriptures support In our in our view.

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Yeah, it's got nothing to do with punk rock. Unfortunately But As briefly as I can

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I'll try to present the main ideas I won't really argue for it because I think the argument ought to come in the form of how particularly say

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Romans 13 Is compatible with this but in any case

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It's also not about the Libertarian Party and It's not about any particular

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Political candidate. So right. In fact, the last and libertarian presidential candidate was far from libertarian, wasn't it?

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But he was in favor of gun control laws and all kinds of strange things that seemed out of place with libertarians

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Yeah, so if you can separate in one's mind any associations with the

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Libertarian Party That's probably for the best It's a political philosophy or a view of civil governance that's based on a particular view of what persons are what property is inherent rights and Specifically the legitimate use of coercion and That namely is

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That the initiation or first use of Coercion sometimes we restrict the word aggression for the first use or initiation of coercion that that You the first use of coercion against others or their property for example

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You know murder assault theft fraud The credible threatening of these things

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None of these things are ever legitimate So the initiation of coercion is never legitimate and the only legitimate use of coercion is in proper response or Proportional response to prior

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Initiation of coercion, so it's only legitimately used responsibly and that principle or norm

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We believe is a universal God -given norm. And of course, it's seen in the sixth and eighth

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Commandments Do not murder do not steal Interestingly Proverbs 3 30

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Also has some implications for this Says something to the effect of don't contend with your neighbor if he hasn't harmed you and that sort of has legal nuance

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That means don't bring the law or force or coercion against someone who hasn't done so to you

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In any case we also and it's important to distinguish between vice or things that are imprudent or sinful and What is crime?

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so The Realm of ethics and morality

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Which centers in loving your neighbor? This is distinct from What justice or civil justice is?

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Which has to do with what is due to others? So in civil matters failing to give do what is someone's do this may be?

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Always unloving But not necessarily vice versa for example

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You know if you lie this is sinful this is a violation of the norm of love of ethics of morality

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But it's not necessarily a criminal offense So we have to distinguish between those two things that helps us understand this principle

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Another thing that we need to distinguish is between what we own and owe

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With respect to God Distinguish that from what we own and we owe with respect to other people so you can think of it in terms of if you

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Say the vertical and the horizontal This principle has to do with the horizontal towards what we own and owe with respect to other people because of course

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God owns Everything we owe everything to God and With regard to our neighbor

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What we own and owe doesn't work that way It's not the same my neighbor can steal from me.

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God cannot steal from me. So those things have to be distinguished the last most important distinction that gets to the heart of what stateless civil governance is about is distinguishing the state what is the state in this particular form of Political legal order you could say

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How is that distinct from civil governance as such? So the state is a particular form of it and Generally we understand that civil governance is

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Basically the adjudication of civil disputes Involving persons or their property and this has to do with rights

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Rights are enforceable or enforceable normative claims regarding your person or property and so Civil governance has to do centrally with the adjudication of disputes over those things with the rules and the

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Enforcement that accompanies that adjudication Whereas a state is a territorial monopoly on coercion and That monopoly requires the initiation of coercion against people on their property

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The state because it has a monopoly on coercion is in principle and always increasingly pending in practice totalitarian

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You know, that's the thing when I was a constitutionalist And I thought well governments have to be

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Chained by the Constitution limited by the Constitution Someone had asked me

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I believe it was Larry Pratt of the gun owners of America He had put the question to me, which is the most important amendment and of course if you know him or his organization

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He had said it's the second because all the other ones are just writing on paper you have to have the means to defend your rights and That got me thinking about the monopoly power of the state

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I realized that even with the inherent right to defend my own other rights that The monopoly actually means in principle the state is totalitarian and it tends in that direction always

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It's not limited if it's a monopoly even by a piece of paper or your gun Just in principle.

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It's not limited So as a monopoly we recognize that states are inherently in their foundation unjust

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Because they require the initiation of coercion against people and their property

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They're not legitimate necessary. They're not inevitable. They're not prudent practical. However civil governance that is the

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Adjudication of disputes in a non monopolistic fashion that is stateless civil governance this is legitimate and It's necessary for civil justice

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Historically, it's been practiced in various part partial ways

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Throughout history it fits with social and economic realities, it's plausible, it's a realistic alternative to the state and It really takes limited

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Government to its consistent conclusion the proper role of government as a

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Impartial Judge of third party judge of disputes

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If you have three people for example and One of the principles would be you can't be a judge in your own case persons a

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B and C if persons a and B have a dispute they can go to C, but if persons

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C and a have a just dispute that doesn't mean C gets to decide they should go to B.

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And so it's that understanding of limited government of Separation of powers so to speak taken to its logical conclusion that produces a non monopolistic stateless understanding of civil governance

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So Terry has written a series of excellent articles four articles at the

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Libertarian Christian Institute their website libertarian Christians and We will link to those will provide the links for those

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There's another essay by a philosopher named Gerard Casey That I found very helpful, and I've also put together a playlist so we've collected some resources regarding this basic position that we want to make available to your listening audience and That's libertarian

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Christians .com is the full website That's where the articles are libertarian

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Christians .com, but we're going to put together a kind of Notes page for this interview at Kerry's website so at mereliberty .com

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Slash Romans 13 so Romans. I guess would be lowercase. I'm not sure if it matters, but Kerry's website is mereliberty .com

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Slash Romans 13 I'll have my notes listed there, and then a link to where Kerry is going to have some further resources listed

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Now well now so to just have you summarize again what you said

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People should not hear the word anarchist that you use

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And I'll ask you in a minute. Why you would use a word that has such horrible connotations mentally to it, but You do not believe to an end of all government

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At all that's right. You've been trying not not you do not believe it's not getting rid of government

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It's getting rid of the state getting rid of a form of government that we think is inherently unjust and Chris I would say that Anarchists are sort of I mean the term anarchism makes it sound like we have a low view of Of authority of specifically

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God ordained authority you mentioned the verse from judges But I would say that we don't have a low view of God ordained authority

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We have a very exceptionally high view of God ordained authority to the point that we're willing to Resist Those illegitimate exercises of authority because that actually diminishes authority and creates an injustice and I'm wondering

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I'm sorry Go ahead Greg. Oh, well, I'm gonna say as far as using the word why

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I don't really shy away from it is In some ways,

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I feel it's honest. So if I'm gonna advocate the abolition of this state

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Completely which I do People, you know tend to think oh, gee, that's anarchism and I'm like, well, oh

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You know, I'm just being honest about it I mean, there's other things that go by anarchism that I can clear by in fact, but Are you there

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Gregory you're breaking up Carrie, are you there? I'm here.

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Yeah, I don't know why Greg is breaking up Well, you know something this is an opportune time to go to our first break anyway

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I don't know perhaps Greg if you're listening you can hang up and recall back in I'm not sure why Greg's phone is acting up But if anybody would like to join us on the air whether you agree with our guests whether you disagree whether you're just not sure

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Please give us as always your first name at least your city and state of residence And your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Don't go away We'll be right back with Kerry Baldwin and hopefully Greg Baus on the theme

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Libertarianism is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children?

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Welcome back. This is chris arnzen. If you just tuned us in our two guests today Are kerry baldwin and gregory baus.

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They are both libertarians And libertarian anarchists to be more specific we are discussing the theme libertarianism

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Is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

33:13

Chris arnzen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence If you live outside the usa gregory, have you returned?

33:22

I'm back. Yes. Hopefully i'll stay with you here. Yeah. Yeah, if you keep getting dropped for some reason just keep calling back um, okay, so just I just wanted to read a portion of scripture and I want you to reply by letting me know if this is still in your mind applicable for the church of jesus christ today

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This is romans 13 verses 1 through 5

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Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which god has established

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The authorities that exist have been established by god consequently Whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what god has instituted

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And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves for rulers hold no terror for those who do right

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But for those who do wrong, do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority then do what is right?

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And you will and do what is right and you will be commended for the one in authority is god's servant for your good

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But if you do wrong be afraid for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason They are god's servants agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer

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Therefore it is necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment, but also as a matter of conscience now, how does the uh christian libertarian anarchist when when you read that how would you respond and Is that something that should still perpetually go on until the lord returns?

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Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite bible passages It really is um uh before getting what

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I want to do is, uh to present a historic reformed understanding of that passage and how

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I think that supports a proper view of the state

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Namely a rejection of the state but yet a affirmation of legitimate civil governance um before I got cut off I I wanted to say that uh

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Using the term anarchism is a little bit like using the term calvinist when people ask me if i'm religious

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I'd like to tell them that i'm a calvinist One they don't know what it means And uh, you know and it's like a convert it's a conversation starter so Actually, it might be more like instead of saying hi i'm chris i'm a calvinist

35:56

Uh, hi, i'm chris. I advocated the burning alive of michael cervidius. That might be more of an accurate comparison

36:03

Right. Well exactly like it carries some uh baggage you have to deal with I guess all terms do but by the way

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I did not I do not I do not advocate the burning of michael cervidius. I want to make that clear That's that's right.

36:17

Yeah, we're against that. I'm glad we're on the same page there, but um Well here here's how

36:23

I want to uh approach the topic. Um Carrie and I are not theonomists and I want to link to an article uh about why we think that's um a problematic hermeneutic

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So that'll be on the page as well um on the mere liberty .com slash romans 13 but uh

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The basic interpretation of romans 13 that we follow um

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Has been advocated by covenanters Uh, that is the stream of uh, scottish presbyterians who followed the solemn legion covenant, uh other

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Establishmentarians also in the reformed faith both continental and uh

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British isles what the reformed presbyterian church of north america was basically Based on I don't know how much they continue the rps the

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Reformed presbyterians are are today the one of the larger, um existing covenanter groups

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They've changed over the years, but in any case um charles hodge uh reflects he he didn't follow through with this viewpoint consistently, but Uh, there are two quotes from him.

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I want to mention before getting into the passage in his commentary on romans uh that basically reflect this viewpoint the first thing he said was

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Uh paul in this passage romans 13 is speaking of the legitimate design of government

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Not the abuse of power by wicked men So in other words paul is not telling us that we need to submit to tyrants or to any unjust laws

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Uh, he's not talking about de facto rulers those that are in fact claiming power presently.

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He's not talking about god's providential ordination or institution of government but of the prescriptive or legitimate design of governance um the second

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Uh quotation from hodge is No command to do anything morally wrong

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Can be binding right no command to do anything morally wrong can be binding nor Can any which transcends the rightful authority of the power whence it emanates?

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Uh, basically In other words, he's saying it's not only the command to sin

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That we don't have to obey when it's issued by any Uh would be authority

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But we don't have to obey anything Coming from civil authorities or would -be authorities

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Beyond the requirements to act justly and submit to justice because that's the limit on their authority

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So if a mugger in the street tells me to hand over my wallet I might do that But not because I have to obey him or that I owe that to him and it's the same with any government

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And particularly the state I shouldn't rob or murder people But when the state tells me

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I can't cut hair without a license or don't collect rainwater on your own property

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They don't actually have that authority And so i'm free to ignore or disobey them and so hodge is recognizing this principle

40:02

That's not just commands to sin that we don't have to obey or shouldn't obey

40:08

But that there's a limit on the authority given So hodge is representing this historic

40:15

Reforms and actually goes back before the reformation in parts What might be called the political resistance view

40:23

Of romans 13 and this is also reflected in the westminster confession and the uh london baptist confession

40:35

Uh where it talks about things lawful In the westminster confession in chapter 20 section 4 on christian liberty it says uh

40:47

It says this because the powers which god has ordained And the liberty which christ has purchased

40:56

Are not intended by god to destroy but mutually to uphold and preserve one another

41:02

They who oppose any lawful power Where the lawful exercise of it resist the ordinance of god

41:11

So this term about um Authority being limited to what is lawful

41:20

Is the main idea that's reflected in all the reformed confessions In the belgic confession the second helvetic confession

41:29

Has similar language I first encountered this view In a book called a christian manifesto

41:40

Written by francis schaeffer in the early 80s 1981, I think

41:49

It's more clearly represented in some works that he draws on uh, namely samuel rutherford's

41:59

Work lex rex which is latin for law king either rendered as The law is king or sometimes the law and the prince something like that That was 1644.

42:15

There's a Another work. Um By a fellow named james m.

42:21

Wilson Simply called civil government that was written in 1853 and we'll link those works so people can access them

42:31

Uh, those really represent this viewpoint on romans 13 and it's namely this so if we look at that passage that you just read uh, whatever

42:43

Terms the translation use use, uh, the powers that be Or the existing or governing authorities in verse one to which we must submit

42:55

This doesn't mean the de facto powers who claim authority

43:02

Rather the meaning here is only those who god authorizes

43:08

That is ordains or institutes, whatever word is being used um

43:15

Only those who god ordains are actual legitimate authorities, that's the meaning

43:21

So ordain can sometimes in the scripture mean god's providence Whatever falls out, uh in history, whatever actually occurs by god's determination

43:33

But it's also that same word is also used for his moral authorization

43:38

Right his prescription, so how do we decide how it's being used here?

43:45

the context Shows us that it's about god's authorization because the passage goes on to say in verses three and four

43:56

It specifies that god only authorizes or or ordains the use of the sword to administer actual civil justice

44:08

So in one translation it says Not a terror to good conduct, but to bad approving of the good

44:19

God's servant or minister for your good A sword -bearing avenger who carries out god's wrath on the wrongdoer

44:28

Right, so if we want to say oh Um god ordains something what is he ordaining he's ordaining the punishment of Violations of justice the commendation of justice

44:46

He's god is ordaining the administration of civil justice

44:53

So now Uh to sort of head off Perhaps a possible further question or objection when the passage in verse

45:04

Verses six and seven says for this reason you must also pay tribute or taxes

45:11

Uh for they are god's ministers attending continually upon this very thing. That is the administration of justice

45:19

Uh render therefore to all their dues taxes to whom taxes are due and so on Um You'll notice that this passage and no scripture actually ever says that anyone in fact owes a tax

45:35

Rather it says if you owe then pay what you owe And this word here for tax can refer to things such as road tolls in which case as Everyone understands if we choose to use a toll road

45:55

Then we would owe the toll so Here's here's how this basic interpretation put forward by samuel rutherford and and other

46:08

Outstanding reformers Of the reformation era here's the context of romans in which this perspective

46:22

Really comes to light and makes sense the previous exhortations in this epistle

46:30

To not conform to the world to discern and hold fast to what is good

46:36

To abhor evil to avoid vengeance to live at peace um, you could ready readily conclude you can imagine someone might think oh

46:48

The government is contrary to these things. It's contrary to god's revealed moral will because They're not about this

46:58

That's the world. They're doing what's evil. They're Being vengeful.

47:03

They're not at uh supporting peace, etc, etc And uh, so we should resist government but uh

47:17

While taking it as granted, of course Paul lives in the real world

47:23

That some in positions of power and some forms of power are obviously evil and illegitimate

47:29

You know hosea 8 4 says they made kings, but not through me right, so that's against the providential

47:39

Mistaken view that somehow romans 13 is referring to whoever happens to actually be in power

47:45

Right in that passage god is saying no, he is a king and it wasn't according to my prescriptive will

47:53

Mark 10 42 Jesus refers to those who are considered to be rulers of the gentiles

48:03

And uh, that word is significant because it means supposed to be but not actually authorities

48:11

Paul here Sets out to clarify That despite the evil of the empire and the state

48:21

God has nevertheless established a legitimate role for civil governance and that our submission to the sort of government that god prescribes or ordains

48:37

Is also in accordance with his moral will um

48:47

There are other passages I think that help clarify this understanding of romans 13 for example uh first corinthians 6

49:02

We see that paul can't have been referring to the roman empire in romans 13

49:09

When he says uh He says to the believers in the church in corinth

49:15

He says when one of you has a grievance against another does he dare go go to the law?

49:21

before the unrighteous Instead of the saints or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

49:28

And if the world is to be judged by you Are you incompetent to trial trivial cases?

49:33

Do you not know that you're going to judge angels? How much more than matters pertaining to this life?

49:38

So The roman empire the roman so -called rulers here are called unrighteous that is unjust

49:48

And therefore they're not legitimate authorities to which believers can submit their civil disputes um if The roman so -called rulers were ministers of god for their good administering justice

50:05

Then paul couldn't have forbidden christians from seeking adjudication from them

50:12

Um and further on in first corinthians chapter 8 verses 5 and 6

50:19

He says for although there May be so -called gods in heaven or on earth

50:26

As indeed there are many gods many lords Yet for us there is one god the father from whom are all things

50:36

For whom we exist and one lord jesus christ through whom are all things and through whom we exist and so among other things this is to say that Many so -called lords or rulers have no more genuine civil authority from god than so -called gods

50:58

Have genuine deity or divinity Let me just ask you a question as a fellow reform believer

51:06

Uh, obviously some of our listeners might not be aware of a difference between god's prescriptive will and his decreed will

51:16

Obviously sure. Yeah, obviously every single ruler that rises to power Never achieves that elevation in authority without the will of god.

51:25

It might not be his prescribed will I mean It's uh, it usually shocks

51:32

Not only unbelievers but christians if you were to say something like even hitler Never rose to power apart from the decreed will of god doesn't mean that god was happy with this

51:41

It doesn't mean he approved of what hitler did at all and hitler, uh is certainly, uh in hell, but the uh, there is a difference in fact, uh

51:53

One can only think of uh, daniel chapter 221 It is he god who changes the times

52:01

And the epochs he removes kings and establishes kings uh, so Obviously anybody who's in authority is there because it was a part of the will of god

52:12

But his decreed will I'm assuming you agree with that because obviously as a reformed christian nothing is out of the orbit of god's authority sovereignty and control

52:24

That's right, and so when I was referring to providential Coordination that that's what I mean. So providence as the execution of god's decree in history.

52:33

That's right Okay Well, we're going to go to our midway break and when we come back from the break you can finalize and summarize anything

52:40

You want to say before kerry? Uh begins her portion on the pro The defense of the life of the unborn and how it is compatible with libertarian philosophy and ideology

52:52

Uh if this is a longer than normal break This is the break that grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us Because they need to localize iron trip and zine radio to lake city florida

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And uh, so therefore, uh, it's a longer than normal break. They air their own public service announcements and commercials

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While we air our own commercials So take this time and use it wisely write down questions for kerry and gregory on libertarianism

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Again, the address is bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel, mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com.

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Thank you Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man. I have personally known for many years His name is dan. But if you go dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer

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That's chris arnzen at gmail .com My name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in los angeles

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor

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01:07:58

To our guests Carrie Baldwin and Gregory Bous on the theme that we are addressing today

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Libertarianism, is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? We just have some

01:08:11

Upcoming events that we want you to attend that we want to announce here First of all coming up on Saturday, March 30th at 6 30 p .m

01:08:20

There's going to be a debate between my friend pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville and Roman Catholic apologist

01:08:28

Matthew Luke Broderick on the theme purgatory. Is it biblical at Saturday March 30th 6 30 p .m

01:08:35

At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York on 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville if you want more details on this event go to WOT church .com

01:08:47

WOT which stands for word of truth church .com. That's WOT church .com or call 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 1 4

01:08:56

That's 6 3 1 8 0 6 0 6 1 4 then coming up after that the next

01:09:04

Iron Sherpens Iron Radio pastors luncheon is going to be held. God willing at the

01:09:10

Carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall Featuring my good friend. Dr. Tony Costa professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and he is going to be speaking on how the

01:09:22

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01:09:30

Whether you are a pastor an elder and I have to think those are the same office Deacon or any other man in ministry leadership.

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It could even be parachurch ministry leadership. It's absolutely free of charge The food is free.

01:09:43

The message from dr Tony Costa is free and the fun fellowship is free

01:09:48

And also you're going to be getting a sack filled with free brand new books That I have selected from major publishers all over the

01:09:56

United States and the United Kingdom Each man leaves with about 20 to 30 free books hundreds of dollars worth of free books which have been donated by nearly every major publisher in Existence every major Christian publisher that is so if you want to attend to send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:10:14

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and we will put you on the registration list to attend the free pastors luncheon for Iron Sherpens Iron Radio that is

01:10:24

May 23rd Thursday, May 23rd from 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania Then after that we've got on May 28th through the 30th

01:10:36

The banner of truth is having their East Coast ministers conference. I will be there God willing on the theme

01:10:42

I believe in the Holy Spirit the speakers include Jeff Kingswood Terry Johnson David Vaughn Steve Nichols who is the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries Michael Morales and Chad Vegas, that's

01:10:57

May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania more specifically at the

01:11:02

Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania And it is on the theme as I said,

01:11:07

I believe in the Holy Spirit For more details and to register go to banner of truth org banner of truth org

01:11:14

Click on events and then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference There are other conferences listed there in other parts of the

01:11:22

United States and the United Kingdom So if you live closer to any of those events feel free to register for those instead

01:11:30

But if you'd like to be at the same conference where I will be attending Please go to the East Coast ministers conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania May 28th through the 30th

01:11:39

That's banner of truth org and click on events Then coming up in December the 19th and the 20th of December One of my favorite conferences is returning to Manhattan.

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That's the foundations conference and This is a conference orchestrated by sermon audio .com.

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Many of you are familiar with that wonderful Ministry which has the finest in preaching and teaching sermon audio .com

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Well, their next foundations conference is going to be held as I said in Manhattan December 19th and 20th featuring dr

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Steven J. Lawson who you just heard not long ago advertising New Covenant Church, NYC one of our advertisers

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Dr. Lawson is founder of one passion ministries and one of the finest preachers on the planet Earth Reverend Jeff Thomas another extraordinary preacher retired pastor from Wales Author and if you've never heard him, you've got to travel by train plane or automobile.

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However, you can get there to hear Jeff Thomas He's extraordinary Richard Caldwell jr.

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Reverend Armin Tomassian who I think is going to be a household name amongst reformed Christians at least Globally within the next decade.

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He's a young man, but he is got wisdom and power and gifts beyond his years a young pastor in the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America I really really enjoy that brother's preaching and teaching his he is also extraordinary

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Andrew Quigley and also Paul Washer has just joined the lineup at the foundations conference

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That's December 19th and the 20th in Manhattan for more details. Go to the foundations conference calm the foundations conference calm and I would register as quickly as you can because the venue only holds about 200 people maximum and they will definitely quickly sell out so I would register as quickly as possible if you intend to attend if you intend to attend and Also last but not least if you love iron sharpens iron radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves

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and put I need a church home in the subject line That is also the email address where you could send in a question to our guests today that would be

01:15:53

Kerry Baldwin and also Gregory Baus and we are discussing libertarianism Is it compatible with a reformed theology in the defense of the rights of unborn children?

01:16:02

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com and Gregory Baus if you want to wrap up and summarize what you wanted to say about Libertarianism being compatible with reformed theology before we move on to the rights of the unborn

01:16:16

Predominantly with our guest Kerry Baldwin. Yeah and as a way to Move into that topic.

01:16:26

I'm going to have some notes regarding what I've said at Kerry's website Which is mereliberty .com

01:16:34

slash Romans 13 Kerry should have some relevant resources at mereliberty .com

01:16:41

slash abortion In any case what I was just saying is basically that Those who by God's sovereign control of history may be in positions of power are not necessarily those who have

01:16:58

God's moral authorization or Ordination according to Scripture God's Word doesn't require our submission to unjust

01:17:08

So -called rulers the sword -bearing power that is ordained of God According to Romans 13 is the administration of civil justice punishing criminals defending victims of crime

01:17:22

Now we recognize that the state as a monopoly Involving initiation of coercion is inherently unjust and is therefore not authorized or ordained by God given this

01:17:38

Christian view of the state We believe Christians Can have a better understanding of what it takes to promote the abolition of abortion in our current situation and I think

01:17:58

Kerry has done a great job at thinking through these things and Helping us consider how we can have a better view

01:18:13

Great Kerry, do you want to now pick up the baton and begin with explaining why?

01:18:21

Libertarianism and especially your brand of it your version of it libertarian anarchism would be

01:18:28

In your mind the most ideal way To lessen if not wipe out the sin of abortion obviously

01:18:37

Thinking that if you're a reformed Christian as I am that ultimately the conversion of the lost is the way that Societies are transformed

01:18:50

Men ruling over other men who are all sinful whether they are an authority or they are subjects to that authority

01:18:57

Rarely have made much improvement in this world. Although some improvement has been made here and there but there's always sin

01:19:04

Going to be contended with here, but if you could pick up the baton now and discuss why?

01:19:12

first of all Why this pro -life movement or should I say? defense of the life of the unborn

01:19:19

Has become such a passion of yours in your life Sir Well, the mission of my blog is to challenge and rethink prevailing paradigms and you know

01:19:33

We've certainly done that already with with Gregory's presentation of libertarian anarchism

01:19:41

But as a particular example or topic I think abortion is a great place to start with this because it encompasses questions of human rights and property rights and personal responsibility

01:19:54

Legal concerns which I think includes challenging the role the state has played in perpetuating abortion in a culture of death but it also allows us to challenge what the

01:20:07

What the proper response from Christians is and that is that includes our particular views about how we view women

01:20:17

So not just the unborn but women as well. So I actually grew up In the pro -life movement.

01:20:23

I spent a lot of time in it. I was an active participant in one former or another until college

01:20:29

I eventually got married and I had three kids But that marriage turned out to be abusive and I lived in relative poverty for the vast majority of it so being a

01:20:43

Being pregnant and the mother in a bad marriage gives me a firsthand Appreciation of the fears that surround poverty and bad relationships.

01:20:52

These are the top two reasons women give for seeking abortion So when

01:20:58

I hear those in the pro -life movement like just urban for example Who have a tendency to dismiss the reasons women give for seeking abortion?

01:21:09

I have to say Wait, stop. Wait a minute The most critical person standing between the baby and the rest of the world is the woman and though I would

01:21:23

Though I agree that we shouldn't justify abortion on the reasons women give Give for getting abortions.

01:21:30

We do have good reason to believe that these motivators are real and that they can be resolved.

01:21:36

So Oftentimes when I bring up Paying attention to the concerns of women.

01:21:43

I'm often labeled a feminist and so I kind of want to Just say at the outset

01:21:49

I do I am NOT a feminist I do support equal rights of women, but I oppose feminism in part

01:21:58

There are several reasons but in part because feminism seeks state -sanctioned privileges for women over and above Actual rights and I don't believe that abortion is an actual right

01:22:10

So by the way, I just want to I just want to quickly interject a little bit of a caveat here

01:22:17

Folks who listen to this show know that I am a friend of Jeff Durbin doesn't mean I necessarily agree with every single thing he says or does but I do applaud him for his work at the abortion mills and I Do believe that they all he also

01:22:33

Does have a lot in common with our guests that Jeff is a libertarian perhaps not the same stripe as Our guests but he does profess to be a libertarian

01:22:44

He has also been greatly inspired by Ron Paul as have our guests. So I just wanted to throw that in there

01:22:51

To make sure that people didn't necessarily Think that I was on board with every criticism.

01:22:56

You're saying about Jeff. I just wanted to make sure that was clear Yeah, and I I'm going to explain where where I'm in agreement with Jeff because I'm not completely opposed to him either

01:23:05

But I do want to say at the outset, you know, I'm not a feminist I don't support safe legal and rare I'm not an incrementalist

01:23:15

And so I just I want to put those things out ahead so that as I'm going through my explanation

01:23:24

You know the tendency especially with these Volatile issues is to say well if you're not with us, you're against us and I want to sort of mitigate that a little bit

01:23:33

I have been constructively critical of both sides of this debate and I've received positive feedback from both sides

01:23:43

Now where I'm in agreement with Jeff Durbin Is that we both agree that abortion is murder.

01:23:52

It's Sinful it's immoral. It should not be legal It denies the basic human rights of the fetus and in fact my last two episodes on Abortion my last two podcast episodes on dare to think

01:24:06

I go beyond the moral argument against abortion and give a defense for why libertarianism itself is necessarily pro -life and Rather than being inherently pro -choice, which is the common belief and this is more of a legal rights argument

01:24:27

I also agree with Jeff Durbin that the pro -life movement is fragmented And it's inefficient and it's fatally flawed

01:24:35

And we are we also believe that there needs to be a paradigm shift in the culture What we disagree on is about how that shift must take place

01:24:47

So that's the disagreement is going to be over the question of whether legislative bans are going to end abortion and I would say that a legislative ban is not

01:25:02

The sum of Of our of our strategy to abolish

01:25:10

Abortion that in and of itself is not going to actually end it I see abortion as a

01:25:18

Canary in the coal mine. It's an indicator of a more dynamic problem at the very least it involves economic factors psychological emotional factors interpersonal factors and of course

01:25:31

We need to have an actual understanding of how to accurately identify the rights of both mom and baby

01:25:42

Now the Bible I think actually gives us some wisdom in In how to move forward and the fact that we can't

01:25:54

Ignore these other factors or reduce them to just if all the results of sin

01:26:01

Ecclesiastes 7 verses 7 through 10, which reads Surely oppression drives the wise into madness

01:26:09

Better is the end of a thing than its beginning and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit

01:26:17

Be not quick in your spirit to become angry for anger lodges in the heart of fools

01:26:23

They not why were the former days better than these or it is not from wisdom that you ask this so the pro -life movement centers on the notion that life for women in the unborn was better prior to Roe v.

01:26:39

Wade and The solution is to get back there and we need to find the quickest route possible

01:26:45

But I think that the wisdom of Scripture says No, sure.

01:26:51

We can agree that it's better to end the practice of abortion than to have it Than to have had it begun in the first pit in the first place

01:27:00

But Ecclesiastes cautions us that acting hastily to revert back to former days of foolishness and even leads to sin

01:27:10

So the oppression of women and the unborn have driven the wise into madness. I think that for life incrementalism, which is economic regulations and sanctions on the abortion industry

01:27:23

Falls under that that's essentially a conservative form of thought socialism and it fails utterly to prevent abortion

01:27:30

Um, but also current proposed bans on abortion do not accurately

01:27:37

Identify rights and are likely to produce greater oppression and not build justice

01:27:42

So this is what Ecclesiastes is warning us about our zeal even for a good cause can lead to sin

01:27:55

Well, can I do it can I quickly read a question from a listener Sure, yeah, okay we have

01:28:03

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who says Regardless of what you believe the ultimate solution to abortion is or should

01:28:13

I say to end it is? wouldn't legislative preventatives at least be hurdles and stumbling blocks that would lessen

01:28:24

The number of murders of unborn children until the ultimate goal is reached by the means that you believe to be biblical right, and I Support measures to reduce the demand of abortion so that we can bring those numbers down And I'm going to talk a little bit later about where those numbers are actually at One of the problems with incrementalist legislation is that is that it only deals with the supply side of economics

01:28:55

And I'm going to be talking about the economic aspects because I think that that is where That is where we can we can really push and influence

01:29:09

Actual, you know and promote the the abolition of abortion But I want to touch on Just banning it the legislative ban of it outright, which is which is what

01:29:23

Jeff Durbin has been proposing Okay, can we pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our final break

01:29:29

It's gonna be a lot fast. It's gonna be a lot more brief than the last break But if anybody would like to join us on the air

01:29:36

Do it now or forever. Hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:29:42

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these messages

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01:39:10

That's 4 to 6 p .m. Easter time here on iron sharpens iron radio now We are back with the final 20 minutes of our interview with Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus On our discussion of libertarianism

01:39:23

Is it compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? If you want to ask us a question

01:39:29

Send us an email now Chris Arnsen at gmail .com and we do have a few people waiting or ready to have their questions asked Hopefully we'll be able to get to some of you before the show is over.

01:39:38

But that's Chris Arnsen at gmail .com Is the email address and if you could carry pick up where you left off about?

01:39:45

the legislation legislative and of abortion

01:39:51

Nationwide how you have some problems with that Okay, so What I think

01:39:58

I want your listeners to Realize is that I want I'm going to be talking about abortion in ways that maybe they have not heard

01:40:09

So frequently, so I'm not going to be regurgitating a lot of the typical pro -life arguments

01:40:16

So immediately I want to talk about two different things. I want to talk about abortion services

01:40:22

Which is what women speak when they have unwanted pregnancies and then I'm also going to be talking about the commodity of aborted fetal tissue

01:40:31

Which is something that medical researchers speak So This is part of the reason why the legislative ban isn't going to Have the effect that we're looking for.

01:40:45

It's not going to have the deterrence effect first of all I don't think it's likely that that that that kind of legislation is going to pass and the reason why is because the

01:40:57

Those interested parties in the aborted fetal tissue industry, which is your medical research

01:41:03

So this is research into diabetes Parkinson's disease Alzheimer's cancer It's used heavily in the development of vaccines and has been used since the 1960s

01:41:16

So we have to realize that this isn't just about the demand for abortion services by women

01:41:23

That demand is offset by the demand by the market for aborted fetal tissue

01:41:30

So the way to actually end abortion to stop abortion is

01:41:36

To deal with the demand for it Now I want to talk a little bit more about Roe v.

01:41:44

Wade Because Jeff Durbin is correct about Roe v. Wade and and it's this Roe v.

01:41:50

Wade is irrelevant and the pro -abortion side is actually proving this right now with all of this up -to -birth

01:41:58

Abortion legislation that they're passing Roe v. Wade basically supports the right to abort in the first trimester

01:42:04

It permits regulation of abortion in the second trimester based on the state's interest

01:42:11

Okay, and then in the third trimester Roe actually protects fetal rights as long as it's in the state's interest

01:42:20

So if Roe v. Wade is the standard bearer for constitutionality of abortion

01:42:25

Then late -term abortion is actually unconstitutional according to Roe So the pro -abortion camp knows what the anti -abortion camp knows.

01:42:34

The SCOTUS ruling on Roe v. Wade is irrelevant The states do not have to abide by Roe v.

01:42:40

Wade But I say this because I don't want pro -lifers to continue to put false hopes in the state

01:42:50

And in this legislation because whatever tactics we use to end the legal practice of abortion can be used and are being used by pro -abortion advocates to perpetuate it

01:43:05

Now politics aside every now and then Pro -lifers like to point out that we would never permit the murder of foreign children

01:43:17

And there's actually a legal term for this it's called philocybe and What's interesting is that we have research on the motivations for philocybe as well and those

01:43:29

Are very closely correlated to the reasons women give for abortion

01:43:35

Nearly half of the philocybe cases again. This is parents murdering their own born children

01:43:41

Nearly half of philocybe cases are for quote altruistic reasons That's ending a child's suffering because of disease or economic hardship or domestic violence

01:43:51

So by comparing the motives for abortion to the motives for philocybe

01:43:57

We can see there's some some credence to these motivations again. We're not justifying murder

01:44:04

But there is some credibility to the reasons why women and parents do this to their children so we

01:44:12

We certainly wouldn't want and I want to Bear in mind that that Passage from Ecclesiastes, which is telling us don't ask act hastily

01:44:26

Because we can we can sin in that in our zeal We certainly wouldn't want the unintended consequences of legal prohibition of abortion to wind up increasing the rates of philocybe

01:44:43

So the Position that I take the stuff that's different from just urban is to Remove from our strategy dependence on the state

01:44:55

And that kind of that's going to give us a clearer roadmap for how to move forward I don't believe that the legal status of abortion should change the pro -life mission

01:45:06

Our mindset should be that of first century Christians In fact in the first century it was legally permissible for fathers to kill their children

01:45:18

And you we don't have any examples of Christians infiltrating the Roman Senate to enact laws about that Regardless of whatever we had in the past with With the

01:45:33

American form of government, but the the government that we have today is anti -christian so if we

01:45:42

If we can accept that and and realize that we cannot depend upon them for our strategy

01:45:50

Then what we're left with is actually a great deal of knowledge about why abortion happens

01:45:56

And we have knowledge of how to resolve those reasons so I Would say that libertarian anarchism does have a first of all it has a legal order

01:46:10

I believe it has a superior legal order in which life liberty and property actually stand a chance

01:46:19

But there are no Guarantees neither civil governance under the state nor statelessness can guarantee abortion will be

01:46:28

Permanently and perpetually illegal, right? We do believe that That the state has actually enabled abortion and so chances are better under an anarchist legal order that The Unborn life will be protected now beyond that.

01:46:50

I want to get into The actual strategy which is dealing with the market and economic freedom

01:46:58

Economic freedom produces the necessary conditions for lifting everybody but particularly women out of poverty

01:47:08

And it provides the necessary conditions for competition Which is how we need to find ethical alternatives to the use of fetal tissue and medical research now

01:47:20

These two things happen at the same time as we're lifted out of poverty competition causes shifts and demands for things

01:47:27

So let me give you an example The invention of the personal computer changed the world

01:47:34

But there was one bit of software specifically that changed the personal computer and that was

01:47:40

Windows 95 But why don't we see copies of Windows 95 still available for sale?

01:47:47

Because it's obsolete right the market came up with something better Windows 95 got replaced

01:47:53

So this is how we need to think of abortion. We ask ourselves. Why is there a demand and How do we just how do we satisfy that demand in such a way that it makes abortion go the way of Windows 95?

01:48:08

so Go ahead. I was just going to ask you if you think that you've come up with those answers yet Um Specifically So that's that's a harder question to answer just because the market's going to to React in whatever way it reacts like you can't predict the exact ways that the market responds and I'll give you an example

01:48:35

And I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit, but this is this is relevant, so Let's say

01:48:46

You are you own a logging company you've been cutting down trees if you run out of trees

01:48:52

You've got a business, right? Right, so you need to replenish you need to replenish your supply your supply

01:48:59

By growing new trees or by moving to another area to harvest other trees

01:49:06

The research resources are nestled necessarily scarce meaning There's a limitation on how much you can use at a given time and in a given time

01:49:15

And to maintain that supply those resources must be replenished So depending upon degree of scarcity this will have an effect on the market supply and on pricing

01:49:27

So let's go back to abortion and specifically Fetal tissue is a commodity

01:49:35

So What is one thing that fetal tissue is used in the production of it's in current supply?

01:49:41

Current currently in large supply right now, and there's also a high demand for it. You know what that is What's that?

01:49:48

It's vaccine Now I don't want to have a vaccine debate here I want to I want to use some data points to sort of To show the connection between abortion and and the market so I'm looking at the economic side of things so Currently we are talking there is also a public debate on abortion or excuse me on vaccines and Just as a data point by a comparison in 1983 an 18 year old would have received a total of 24 doses of Vaccination in 2017 an 18 year old received 69 doses

01:50:32

So right or wrong effective or not. I'm not here to make a statement about that I merely want to point out the economic demand for vaccines has increased and Aborted fetal tissue has been used in the production of vaccines since the 1960s.

01:50:49

So that's even prior to Roe v. Wade So But there's also something happening with a supply of fetal tissue

01:51:01

We've actually hit historic lows for abortion There the rates of abortion are actually lower today than they were prior to Roe v.

01:51:13

Wade Really, so if we yes So and gut matcher reports this now gut matcher suspects that it's because of increased use of birth control.

01:51:23

We don't really know this they're Surmising this because there's an increase in insurance payouts for her hormonal birth control since the

01:51:32

Affordable Care Act was rolled out But there's another historic low that people don't

01:51:38

Talk about so much. You can you can find this Readily reported and that is that Millennials are having less sex than the previous generation so you have young people who is who are also the

01:51:56

Most likely to To seek abortion is between the ages of 18 and 24

01:52:04

But there's a reduction in the number of those people who are having sex really

01:52:11

Yes Reduction and and it's not for and I'll link this in the show notes This is the thing that you thought you asked about those reasons that will will reduce the market, right?

01:52:22

the reason why Millennials are not having less sex it. I'll tell you just straight off the bat.

01:52:29

It's not because why they are having less sex Sorry, sorry.

01:52:34

Yes, why they invent why they are having less That's right. It is not because they found Christ and and have had a moral epiphany

01:52:41

Okay, there there are reasons why this is happening and I'll link that in the notes But the reason why

01:52:47

I bring this up is because first of all the market is responding And it's responding in a way that we couldn't predict

01:52:58

In so far as you know, the specific reasons like why Millennials are having less sex and What's the actual cause of the historic lows of abortions are?

01:53:13

But You have a demand for Vaccines you have an increased demand from vaccines from 1983 and I believe that and I'll have to look at the numbers for this, but I believe that The written the rates of abortion maxed out.

01:53:34

I want to say in the late 80s early 90s and Then they started to go downhill from there.

01:53:42

But yeah right now as of now today We have a lower rate of abortion than than prior to row and prior to row

01:53:51

They were manufacturing Vaccines enough vaccine so that you could have 24 doses by the time you're 18 now

01:53:58

They need to manufacture enough vaccines that you have 69 by the time you're 18. So guess what they have a decreased supply of aborted fetal tissue

01:54:10

Does that make sense yeah Okay, so I'm bringing up the act in the economic side of this

01:54:21

Because and I've sort of gone off on a rabbit trail, but I want to wrap this up The economy is something that we can actually influence both as consumers and producers

01:54:31

We have more power to influence the economy than we have to influence Congress or state legislatures

01:54:39

I Think our contention is that libertarianism is not merely compatible with Christianity or reformed theology but that libertarianism promotes life and human rights at all stages and its

01:54:51

Principles of economic freedom can promote the abolition of abortion In its truest sense, so not just a legal ban on abortion

01:55:00

But actually reduce the felt need and the incidence of abortion

01:55:07

If you want to if you want a woman to freely voluntarily choose life

01:55:12

Then the pro -life the pro -life mission is it's clear you advocate for the free market, which is proven to reduce poverty and the felt need for abortion and Here's the kicker is even pro -choice libertarians and those pro -choice free market capitalists

01:55:33

Are actually and with unwitting allies in this effort Because that movement towards the free market is going to reduce the cost of motherhood it's going to Increase innovations that provide the means for mothers to commit to raising their children

01:55:50

Okay, so this is things everything from you know, your household appliances like the washer and dryer with a huge innovation for for mothers

01:56:00

But also personal computer and mobile devices that allows me to homeschool my children from home while I work from home

01:56:08

But the free market also produces the the conditions necessary for that competition in The field of medical research and getting alternative versus to for tissue research

01:56:21

So the free market is going to deal with both the demand For abortion services from women from women and also the demand for aborted fetal tissue from the medical industry

01:56:32

And this is this is the paradigm shift that can actually make the legal band stick

01:56:37

But the legal bands can't produce the shift It must come from the shift the paradigm shift must happen from the ground up not from the top down It has to happen from the market not from the state

01:56:50

It sounds like what you're saying it reflects a lot of what Ron Paul Says about alternatives to building a wall to prevent illegal immigration.

01:57:01

There seems to be a lot of similarity there. Oh I'm sure there is You know,

01:57:08

I I would think that that you know, Ron Paul is probably probably saying that immigration isn't isn't

01:57:16

Isn't a bad thing, but we should deal with it in a market way instead of you know, using the state to try and Literally wedge a wall between us and an immigrant.

01:57:28

I don't think anybody thinks that immigration is a bad thing It's a legal immigration that people have a problem with yeah, and it's actually the state that makes immigration a problem and right

01:57:40

Wait, but we are you know, but okay finish your thought because we're rapidly running out of time

01:57:47

Well, I was gonna say we don't we want to encourage those who support the abolition of abortion to turn their eyes away from hopes in the state and Think smarter

01:58:02

We can think better about how to tackle these problems. Well, perhaps I'm sorry good

01:58:08

I just want to say one more thing because I know you said that there were some questions waiting Um, I'm more than happy to answer questions from the audience after the show is over If you guys want to forward those questions to my email,

01:58:21

I'll let the listeners carry. I'll do I'll let the listeners. Yeah Yeah, that's fine. My my email address.

01:58:28

My direct email is Carrie K Er or why at mere Liberty comm so any of those who are sort of waiting in the queue or for questions

01:58:36

Please feel free to email me those and I'm happy to answer them. Well, perhaps one day we could have a nice roundtable discussion where you two are

01:58:46

Having a conversation on iron sharpens iron radio with Jeff Durbin and somebody else who is one of his allies

01:58:52

So we could just have both sides represented and I want to make sure that Our listeners have all of the information that they need to get a hold of you.

01:59:03

First of all carry Your website is mere Liberty comm mere

01:59:08

Liberty comm and Gregory, what would you like to announce as far as getting a hold of you?

01:59:16

Well, my information will be at the Subsection site whatever mere

01:59:22

Liberty comm slash Romans 13 I'll have contact information for myself there

01:59:29

But people are free to email me as well. My email address is ideologue.

01:59:35

I d -e -o l -o -g ideologue at gmail .com

01:59:40

and I'd be happy to talk more about the Reformed view of stateless civil governance great and we are out of time

01:59:49

I want to thank you both for being on the program today I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives