March 19, 2019 Show with Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus on “Libertarianism: Is It Compatible With Reformed Theology & the Defense of the Rights of Unborn Children?”

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Libertarianism and the Day's Topic

And we're going to have, I'm sure, a fascinating discussion today, something that I don't address regularly, although I have addressed it on the program in the past. We're going to be talking about libertarianism.

I happen to be libertarian-leaning myself, a right-leaning libertarian, but I know that this group is not monolithic. There are differences of opinion, just like there are in most subjects in life, whether they be politics or theology or other areas of importance, and libertarianism is no different.

But today, we're specifically going to be addressing libertarianism. Is it compatible with reform theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children? To discuss this issue are two libertarians.

We have, first, Carrie Baldwin, who is an independent researcher and writer with a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy. She is the host of the website mereliberty .com, a regular contributor for the Libertarian Christian Institute, a confessionally reformed Christian and member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

She's an outspoken libertarian and defender of Christian orthodoxy and developed the podcasts, Women, Christianity, and Libertarianism, Dare to Think, and Flashes of Liberty. First of all, let me welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Carrie Baldwin.

Thank you, Chris. I'm really glad to be here.

It's great to have you here. Also joining us for the first time ever on Iron Trip and Zion Radio is Gregory Baus. He is a freelanced itinerant teacher, a current grad student at Northwest University in South Africa, and an independent researcher on the topic of a reformed view of stateless civil governance, which is also known as libertarian anarchism.

He is also going to be addressing the theme that I already mentioned. Libertarianism isn't compatible with reformed theology and the defense of the rights of unborn children. One of the reasons I am even conducting this program today is because libertarianism is not really given a voice nearly as much as mainstream republican and democratic ideology, although even those two parties are not monoliths either.

But I can say, though, when I first started this program in 2005, you hardly ever heard a libertarian opinion in the major media, but it is increasing. But I think that today we're going to hear opinions that might even be different from what you hear from libertarians that you may occasionally hear on Fox News or other places.

But first of all, as we always do, or at least we usually do on Iron Trip and Zion Radio when we have first-time guests, we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony. And if you could, Carrie Bolden, we'll start with you.

What kind of a religious atmosphere were you raised in, if any? And what kind of providential circumstances did our sovereign Lord raise up in your life that drew you to himself and save you?

Well, I grew up in the Lutheran Church, the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. I was baptized, catechized, and confirmed and saved there. So as a good Lutheran girl, if you asked me when I was saved, I would tell you when I was three months old, because I was baptized as a baby.

I found Reformed theology in about 2006. I was doing some independent research, shall we say, on the doctrine of baptism, specifically infant baptism. And I found that through Dr. R .C. Sproul. So eventually I became a member of my local OPC in about 2014.

But I've grown up in the Church and have always known that God is my Heavenly Father and that I'm a sinner in need of salvation.

Well, praise God. And how did you become interested in libertarianism? And, in fact, not only become interested in it, you dived into it with full force and are very actively involved in promoting it.

Right. So politically I was a Republican. I grew up in a Republican family and remained so until about 2008 during the presidential primaries. That was the first year that I had the opportunity to vote in a presidential primary.

And there were so many options in the Republican Party at that point. I didn't know how to choose, and I got this wild, crazy idea that I should look up the Constitution to tell me what the executive office is for.

And lo and behold, the only candidate up there who was following the Constitution was Ron Paul. So Ron Paul is the one who introduced me to libertarianism. And eventually I became an anarchist in about 2017, but I started writing about libertarianism back in 2012.

And now, if we could, Gregory Baus, have your summary of how our Lord saved you, what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in, etc.

Sure. And I hope I don't have any technical difficulties here. You're going in and out a little bit for me. Really? You sound perfect.

Both of you sound perfect, so I'm not sure. I don't know why I'm going in and out. It's not on my end. I can't hear anything like that on mine.

Okay. All right. Maybe it's my end. But in any case, I was also born and raised in a Christian home. My parents were converted in young adulthood, and so they entered an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation as well before I was born.

And so I was also catechized in a Reformed faith. And I became a Communicant member at a fairly young age, at about nine years. But there was never a time when I didn't know and love the Lord that I can remember.

Although I'd say when I was about 15, the particulars of the Reformed impressed on me in a new way. I had read the Confession, was reading Calvin's Institutes and this kind of thing, and I became pretty gung-ho for Reformed distinctives, at least by that time.

Great. Well, Kerry mentioned a key word here that might separate you. In fact, it more than might separate you. It does separate you two from some more, I guess, mainstream libertarians. You used the word anarchist.

And of course, many people have all kinds of images that come to mind when it comes to anarchists. They might think immediately, as I perhaps did, the sex pistols. You might think of people carrying torches in the streets and throwing people out of their government offices and just rioting.

In fact, someone might even have Judges 21 -25 come to mind. In those days, there was no king in Israel, and everyone did what was right in his own mind or his own eyes. But if you could explain specifically what that is, and then we're going to have the way that our guests want to address this two-fold subject, which is libertarianism, is it compatible with Reformed theology, and the defense of the rights of unborn children.

We're going to have Gregory is going to be dealing primarily with the aspect of how this is a compatible ideology with Reformed theology. And then the second hour, we're going to have Kerry predominantly handle the issue of the defense of the rights of the unborn.

But of course, they can both jump in during each hour. But if you could, either one of you that wants to jump in first about this idea of anarchism.

Stateless Civil Governance and Romans 13

Well, I'd like to get into the biblical text right away, but I guess beforehand, it's a good idea to explain what we think the scriptures support in our view. Yeah, it's got nothing to do with punk rock, unfortunately.

Unfortunately? Unfortunately. Not all that punk. But as briefly as I can, I'll try to present the main ideas. I won't really argue for it, because I think the argument ought to come in the form of how particularly, say, Romans 13 is compatible with this.

But in any case, it's also not about the Libertarian Party, and it's not about any particular political candidate.

Right. In fact, the last Libertarian presidential candidate was far from Libertarian, wasn't he? He was in favor of strict gun control laws and all kinds of strange things that seemed out of place with Libertarians.

Yeah, so if you can separate in one's mind any associations with the Libertarian Party, that's probably for the best. It's a political philosophy, or a view of civil governance, that's based on a particular view of what persons are, what proper legitimate use of...

And that, namely, is that the initiation or first use of coercion against others, for example, murder, assault, theft, fraud, the credible threatening of these things, none of these things are ever legitimate.

So the initiation of coercion is never legitimate, and the only legitimate use of coercion is in proper prior initiation. It's the only legitimately used... And that principle or norm, we believe, is a universal God-given norm, and of course it's seen in the Sixth and Eighth Commandments, do not murder, do not steal.

Interestingly, Proverbs 3 .30, something to the effect of don't contend with your neighbor if he hasn't harmed you, and that sort of has legal nuance. That means don't bring the law or force or coercion against someone who hasn't done so to you.

In any case, we also... And it's important to distinguish between vice, or things that are imprudent or sinful, and what is crime. The realm of ethics and morality, which centers in loving your neighbor, this is distinct from what justice or civil justice has to do with what is due.

Failing to give due what is someone's due, this may be always unloving, but not necessarily vice versa. For example, if you lie, this is a violation of the norm of love, of ethics, of morality, but it's not necessarily a criminal offense.

We have to distinguish between those two things. That helps us understand this principle. Another thing that we need to distinguish is between what we own and owe back to God, distinguish that from what we own and we owe with respect to other people.

So you can think of it in terms of, if you say the vertical and the horizontal, this principle has to do with the horizontal, towards what we own and owe with respect to other people, because, of course, God owns everything, and in regard to our neighbor, what we own and owe doesn't...

My neighbor can steal from me. God cannot steal from me. So those things have to be... Distinction that gets to the heart of what stateless civil governance is about, a particular form of political legal order, you could say.

How is that distinct from civil governance as such? So the state is a particular form of it. And generally, we understand that civil governance is basically the adjudication of civil disputes involving persons or their property, and this has to do with rights.

Rights are enforceable, or enforceable. Civil governance has disputes over those things with the rules and the enforcement that it comes... Whereas, is a terrorist... That monopoly... ...against people and their property...

State, because it has a monopoly on coercion, is, in principle, and always increasingly, tending in practice, totalitarian. You know, that's the thing. When I was a constitutionalist, and I thought, well, governments have to be chained by the Constitution, limited by the Constitution, someone had asked me, I believe it was Larry Pratt of the Gun Owners of America, this important amendment.

Of course, if you know him or his organization, he had said it's the second because all the other ones are just writing on paper. You have to have the means to... And that got me thinking about the monopoly power of that even with the inherent right to defend my...

The monopoly actually means, in principle, the state is totalitarian, and it tends in that direction always. It's not limited if it's a monopoly, even by a piece of paper or your gun. Just in principle, it's not limited.

So, as a monopoly, we recognize that states are inherently, in their foundation, unjust because they require the initiation of coercion against people and their property. They're not legitimate, necessary.

They're not inevitable. They're not prudent and practical. However, civil governance, that is the adjudication of disputes in a non-monopolistic fashion, that is stateless civil governance, this is legitimate, and it's necessary for civil justice, various...

It fits with social and economic realities. It's plausible. It's a realistic alternative to the state, limited role of government, impartial judge of third party. You have three people, for example, and one of the principles would be you can't be a judge in your...

Persons A and B have a dispute. They can go to C. C and A have a dispute. That doesn't mean C gets to decide. They should go to B. And so, it's that understanding of limited government, logical conclusion that produces a non-monopolistic, stateless understanding of civil...

Terry has written a series of excellent articles, four articles, at the Libertarian Christian Institute, their website, Libertarian Christians, and we will link to those. We'll provide the links for those.

An essay by a philosopher, Casey, that I found very helpful and I've also put together. I've collected some resources regarding this basic position that we want to make available to your listening audience.

And that's libertarianchristians .com is the full website. That's where the articles are,.

Libertarianchristians .com, but we're going to put together a kind of notes page for this interview at Terry's website at mereliberty .com slash... This would be lowercase. I'm not sure. But Terry's website is mereliberty .com slash roman...

Listed there, and then a link to where.

Further resources... Now... as well. Now, so, to just have you summarize again what you said, people should not hear the word anarchist that you use, and I'll ask you in a minute why you would use a word that has such horrible connotations mentally to it.

But you do not believe to an end of all government. At all. That's right. That's right.

You do not believe that. It's not getting rid of government. It's getting rid of the state. Getting rid of a form of government that we think is inherently unjust.

And, Chris, I would say that anarchists are sort of... I mean, the term anarchism makes it sound like we have a low view of authority, of specifically God-ordained authority. You mentioned the verse from Judges.

But I would say that we don't have a low view of God-ordained authority. We have a very exceptionally high view of God-ordained authority to the point that we're willing to resist those illegitimate exercises of authority because that actually diminishes authority and creates an injustice.

And I'm wondering...

Go ahead, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Greg. Well, I was going to say, as far as using the word, why I don't really shy away from it is, in some ways, I feel it's honest. So if I'm going to advocate the abolition of the state completely, which I do, people tend to think, oh, gee, that's anarchism.

And I'm like, well, I'm just being honest about it. I mean, there's other things that go by anarchism that I can clarify in text. Are you there, Gregory? You're breaking up. Carrie, are you there?

I'm here, yeah. I don't know why Greg is breaking up. Well, you know something? This is an opportune time to go to our first break anyway. Perhaps, Greg, if you're listening, you can hang up and call back in.

I'm not sure why Greg's phone is acting up. But if anybody would like to join us on the air, whether you agree with our guests, whether you disagree, whether you're just not sure, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Kerry Baldwin and hopefully Greg Baus on the theme, Libertarianism, Is It Compatible With Reform Theology? and the defense of the rights of unborn children. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our two guests today are Kerry Baldwin and Gregory Baus. They are both libertarians and libertarian anarchists to be more specific.

We are discussing the theme Libertarianism Is it Compatible with Reformed Theology and the Defense of the Rights of Unborn Children? If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen .com.

Chrisarnsen .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Gregory, have you returned? I'm back, yes. Hopefully, I'll stay with you here.

Yeah, if you keep getting dropped for some reason, just keep calling back. Okay. So, I just wanted to read a portion of Scripture and I want you to reply by letting me know if this is still, in your mind, applicable for the Church of Jesus Christ today.

This is Romans 13 verses 1 through 5. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves for rulers hold no terror for those who do right but for those who do wrong.

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid.

For rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Now, how does the Christian libertarian anarchist, when you read that, how would you respond and is that something that should still perpetually go on until the Lord returns? Yeah, I love it. It's one of my favorite Bible passages.

You know, before getting and how the state, namely a rejection of the state, but, before I got cut off, I wanted to say that using the term anarchism is a little bit like using the term Calvinist. When people ask me if I'm religious, I like to tell them that I'm a Calvinist because, one, they don't know what it means.

And, you know, it's like a convert to go... Actually, it might be more like instead of saying hi, I'm Chris, I'm a Calvinist, hi, I'm Chris, I advocated the burning alive of Michael Servetus. That might be more of an accurate comparison.

Right, well, exactly, like it carries some baggage you have to deal with, I guess all terms do. By the way, I do not advocate the burning of Michael Servetus. I want to make that clear. That's right, yeah.

We're against that. I'm glad we're on the same page there. But, well, here's how I want to approach the topic. Kerry and I are not theonomists, and I want to link to an article about why we think that's hermeneutic, so that'll be on the page as well, on the mereliberty .com.

The basic interpretation of Romans 13 that we follow by covenanters, that is the Column League and Covenant, other establishmentarians also, and British Isles. What the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America was basically based on, I don't know how much they continue to...

The RPs, the Reformed Presbyterians, are today one of the larger... They've changed over the years, but in any case, Charles Hodge reflects... He didn't follow through with this viewpoint consistently, but from him, I want to mention, before getting into the passage, basically reflect this viewpoint.

Paul, in this passage, Romans 13, is speaking of the legitimate design of government, not the abuse of power by wicked men. So, in other words, Paul is not telling us that we need to submit to tyrants or to any unjust laws.

He's not talking about confidential ordination or institution of government, but of the design. No command morally wrong can be binding. No command to do anything morally wrong can be binding, nor can any which transcends the rightful authority of the power whence it emanates.

Basically, in other words, he's saying it's not only the command that we don't have to obey anything coming from civil beyond the requirements to act justly and submit to justice, because that's the limit on their authority.

So, if a mugger in the street tells me to hand over my wallet, I might do that, but not because I have to obey him or that I owe that to him. And it's the same with any government. Murder people, but when the state tells me I can't cut hair without a license, or don't collect rainwater on your own property, so I'm free to ignore or disobey them.

So, Hodge is recognizing this principle that it's not just commands to sin that we don't have to obey on the authority given. So, Hodge is representing this historic reforms and, what might be called the political resistance of Romans 13, and this is also reflected in the Westminster Confession and the London Baptism.

In the Westminster Confession, in chapter 20, it says, and the liberty which Christ has purchased are not intended by God to destroy, but mutually to uphold and preserve one another. They who oppose any lawful power or the lawful exercise of it resist the ordinance of God.

So, this term about authority being limited to what is lawful is the main idea that's reflected in all the Reformed Confessions, in the Belgic Confession, in the Second Helvetic Confession, has similar language.

I first encountered this view in a book written by Francis Schaeffer in the early He draws namely Samuel Rutherford's Latin for the law is king something like that simply called civil 1853 and we'll link those works so people can those really represent the team and it's namely that you just read powers that be or the existing to which we must submit doesn't mean the meaning here is ordains or is being used only those who.

Jesus Christ say that many so-called lords or more genuine civil authority from God than so-called genuine deity. Let me just ask you a question. As a fellow reform believer obviously some of our listeners might not be aware of a difference between God's prescriptive will and his decreed will.

Obviously every single ruler that rises to power never achieves that elevation in authority without the will of God it might not be his prescribed will. I mean it's usually shocks. Not only unbelievers but Christians.

If you were to say something like even Hitler never rose to power apart from the decreed will of God doesn't mean that God was happy with. This doesn't mean he approved of what Hitler did at all. And Hitler is certainly in hell.

But there is a difference. In fact one can only think of Daniel chapter 2 21. It is he God who changes the times and the epochs he removes kings and establishes kings. So obviously we are our own commercials so take this time and use it wisely.

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