Should Women Who Murder their Unborn Children Be Drawn and Quartered?

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And welcome to Bible bash where we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry

01:30

We're your host Harrison Kerrig and pastor Tim mullet and today we seek to answer the age -old question should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered and Before we ask this title question and kind of dive right into it

01:45

Tim. Do you mind just explaining to us? What drawn and quartered actually means for for those who might not be acquainted with this term?

01:56

Yeah, I was actually looking that up and it seems like there's some discussion about What that really meant?

02:04

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I assumed it meant you have essentially a body that is tied between four horses and the four horses are spurred

02:15

Outward and you basically split the body into four that way and I think that's probably what it is, but then some of the other websites were basically saying that it

02:24

Means cutting the body into four pieces too, but but yeah, essentially the drawn part is

02:33

I guess, you know, it's it's essentially a cruel form of punishment that happened in You know the late

02:42

Let's see Let's see 12th century something like something along that lines and Basically just you know the drawn part is that you're tied to a horse and dragged to the gallows and then you're hung and You know, usually you're gonna be disemboweled live and then

03:02

After being disemboweled you have your entrails burned You normally beheaded and then you're quartered meaning put between the four horses and have them

03:12

Run in the opposite direction. So you might want to think of the William Wallace Scene and Braveheart kind of kind of deal.

03:19

So basically what you're saying is definitely a gentleman's death, right? That's right.

03:26

Well, apparently it was a kind of death that was reserved for traitors. I think that's what people Agree upon.

03:32

Yeah. Well, I did I didn't know that I just assumed it was the you know, you tie you tie

03:39

Each limb to a different horse and then you just you smack the horse and then it's off Yeah, I think that's probably what it is, but I don't know.

03:48

There's some dispute but who knows it's something bad Definitely four pieces somehow quartered cut in.

03:54

Yeah, whatever it is. It doesn't sound pleasant Sure okay, so so Going back to the title question itself now that we can't we know at least somewhat what what drawn and quartered means

04:11

What do you think should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered?

04:18

Sure. Well, I think it's a it's a difficult question to ask To answer and not for the reasons we think

04:26

I mean, I would say that Right now it's kind of blasphemy to think that a woman should face any punishment for Murdering her unborn child, but I think what's hard about it is if you're trying to think about it from a biblical perspective, there's

04:43

Several passages which seem to several types of passages which seem to come to mind and so you have the principle of Lex Talionis Which essentially is you know the principle in the

04:54

Bible that the punishment should fit the crime and so that's You know the eye for eye the tooth for tooth the life for life

05:00

Kind of principle and then you know related to individuals who are making false accusations against another person if you if you're

05:08

Laying and wait for your brother and seeking to do them harm and it and it is found out that you know

05:14

You're making a false accusation The Israelites are told to do to the person making that false accusation what they intended to do to their brother

05:22

Essentially, and so yeah and the Old Covenant law There is this principle of you know, equal rich retribution essentially that if you seek to do your brother harm

05:33

What you know the the punishment has kind of like a maximum amount of?

05:39

You know if you take their eye, you know The punishment should fit crime

05:45

So an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth a life for life what you seek to do do the other person or do? the other person

05:52

That's what should be done to you so there's there's this principle of that being defined as justice and so then when you compare that to the idea of a mother mother

06:02

Basically conscripting a Abortionist or a hitman to kill her child essentially

06:08

There is a kind of justice there to be thought that if you actually understand what's happening to an unborn baby in an abortion

06:15

I mean, they are essentially being chopped into pieces in their mother's womb while they're alive and Then in order so in order that they'll fit, you know into the birth canal without as much difficulty, so some of some of the

06:33

You know if you look into how they do these sorts of things I mean, there's It's a pretty grisly process as far as that goes which involves just you know often involves depending what stage it is

06:47

Dismembering while in the mother's womb. So then you think about well, should she be drawn and quartered and well, it seems to me that That would be an example of the lex talionis type type of thing and in operation if that makes sense

07:01

Mm -hmm. I think what makes it difficult though is That there are there's obviously a long legal tradition in our country of You know an attempt to ban cruel and unusual

07:16

Punishment as far as that goes and so there there is kind of a moral intuition there.

07:22

That seems to be something that we should resonate with and to some degree which is to say that You Know there are types of barbaric and cruel

07:35

Punishments for crimes that we should be somewhat skeptical about in general because I mean there is

07:43

There's a distortion of the eye for an eye to for a tooth life -or -life kind of principle that basically says that you know

07:48

Whatever a person does that needs to be done to them period without any forethought, right?

07:54

and the problem with that kind of thing is that if you were to Imagine like a person rapes someone else.

08:00

Well You know a rape for a rape. Is that what the Bible is intending there? Well, no clearly not.

08:06

So there's some kinds of punishments that you can't really meet out without Being guilty of the same thing that you're doing right so you you can imagine some kind of punishments that it would be sinful to Carry out and then you know

08:22

I think with something like this drawn and quartered kind of thing this lengthy torture for the traitor kind of person

08:30

It does seem to me to that There is there are types of things like that that would stain you in the process of carrying out

08:40

To where while capital punishment might be a live option in the case of certain things particularly murder

08:47

It it does seem to me that there's ways to execute no pun intended

08:55

Punishment without being stained stained morally in the process now, I mean I would say that though it's even more complicated though because stoning was a

09:05

Stoning in the law was a Prescription given to the people right and by modern standards that would be considered cruel and unusual punishment

09:15

And you know many people attack the Bible for exactly that reason Essentially saying the Bible is a stone -age barbaric book that it's just primitive tribal violence based on an angry deity and all that kind of stuff and so then basically

09:29

You know if you read your Bible honestly you have to under you have to admit Yeah stoning is there and so it must be that God's ethic is a little bit different than man's at that point and so There are some sorts of crimes so heinous that they ought to be made into a public spectacle and Everything else and so modern sensibilities don't always prevail in that kind of way

09:49

But I would think though with the drawn and quartering issue I think well, I think a woman should obviously a woman who murders her child should be put to death and I'm not sure if that's the right method, but I think part of the reason why

10:06

I don't know that that's a right method Is because it seems that honestly It's you know from a biblical perspective,

10:14

I don't think it's the cruelty of the method so much that is the issue but Although that may be a factor, but I think it's more the contempt for the human body that would be the issue

10:26

If that makes sense, okay? Well, I mean in order to quarter someone you have to literally rip their body apart, yeah, you're definitely getting stained in that process

10:37

Well, I think it shows contempt for the image of God in a pretty high -handed and fundamental way meaning like that, you know, there's a there's part part of the reason why

10:48

Christians show respect for bodies even in death and we want to bury those bodies and not just Casually destroy those bodies is because there is this hope that God will raise this body in the last day in some sense, right?

11:00

Mm -hmm and so just to like mutilate the body beyond recognition or destroy it or tear it up shows contempt for God and for his designed and Design in a pretty fundamental way and even you know bodies that are fit for destruction like they're gonna heck

11:15

Even even the unbeliever will be given a resurrection body which is fit for destruction Which will have some correlation to the body on earth as far as that goes.

11:24

And so I think There is some kind of you know Intuition there to say hey, let's show respect for the body in that kind of way and it's not the kind of like Thing that the

11:37

Greeks believe, you know, if you cut the tongue out and pluck out the eyes and forever on all eternity

11:43

They're going to be eyeless and tongueless or something like right? But I do think there is a kind of Christian intuition to say we have to show

11:51

The body some more respect than that Even if it deserves a good killing right?

11:57

So okay. So so essentially, you know, maybe maybe Asserting that someone who gets an abortion should be drawn and quartered as a little overzealous but But then at the same time, you know, maybe maybe a rope in a tree isn't

12:17

Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah hanging by the neck till the feet stop kicking. Yeah, sure, right

12:23

So Obviously we live in a world that really

12:30

Doesn't agree with what you're saying at all And honestly if they when people hear what you're saying, they might actually be saying hey, you know what?

12:38

Let's get a rope in a tree and and and take you out instead because because we don't like what you're saying

12:45

You know most people in our society Even even pro -life people even people who say they're against abortion

12:55

Will assert that the women are they're just victims and this process they're

13:04

We shouldn't view them as murderers The same way we would you know, if someone plunged a knife into someone else's chest

13:12

We would view that person as a murderer. We shouldn't view the women who are getting abortions this way

13:19

So so why exactly do you think? They should be they should you know opposed to what society says why do you think they should actually be treated as Murderers in this process.

13:34

I mean nor you know, normally it's not like they're the ones doing any Performing, you know performing the action.

13:41

So so what are they what's the reasoning behind saying? Hey, you know what they do deserve?

13:48

The death penalty from the you know from the government Sure. Yeah when

13:53

I well, that's a good let's start. Well, let me start with that qualification when we talk about should a woman

14:01

Because you live in a like an insane society that's gonna misunderstand everything that you're saying. You might want to just clarify that When you're answering a question like this you are talking about capital punishment.

14:13

You're talking about just capital punishment Talking about individual vigilante justice or something like that.

14:19

Yeah, that's um, that's an important point. We're not Advocating that anyone take the law into their hand and we don't need any

14:27

Batman running around throwing throwing batarangs They were not that's not the discussion.

14:34

We're having you know, although I'm sure that plenty of people hear that immediately Even though it's because at least listening comprehension problems not because what we're saying though But they have that having that clarification what what you're saying about the pro -life movement is right,

14:52

I when I was in seminary, I one of my classes was an applied ministry class and I Part of that class as you have to do a practical kind of ministry on the ground

15:04

I was doing nursing home chaplain ministry, and then I also during that time

15:11

Did I speak for the unborn ministry and you know a lot of a lot of the people that were going out there were we we thought abortion was a murderer and rightfully so and we were trying to speak to women who were going to get get abortions performed or have the child children killed essentially, but we

15:33

We were doing that and it was very clear that I think the vast majority of people who were doing it

15:38

We're just looking at for it as an opportunity to have the gospel presented but then there was a few people who were the ones who were mostly in charge of the ministry who seemed to be overzealous and Committed to the in kind of an unthinking way to the principles of the pro -life movement

15:53

I think you know tied to the the whole pro -life strategy has very much been to Identify the women procuring the abortions as victims.

16:02

And so that's right. I mean and that's You know, we were encouraged not to try to proselytize by some of these people and that was one of the thing that we were

16:11

Encouraged not to do and then Which I mean my goodness.

16:17

Yeah What do you say that but then, you know part of it is there there has been a whole strategy to kind of view the women as a victim victims as far as that goes and Think of them in that kind of way and so then the question along those lines is why should they be culpable for their actions?

16:37

particularly when they're not Necessarily the ones taking the coat hanger up and trying to kill the baby themself.

16:43

Is that kind of the Yeah impulse or Well, I think part of the issue here is that you know with everything critical theory has infected our brains

16:56

And this is just another example of how critical in theory It has infected us and almost every level and and the way critical theory works is that the world's divided up in the oppressor and oppressed classes and Then that's carried over into how we even understand women

17:10

So women in our society are viewed as marginalized and protected classes despite the fact that they're actually the majority of people in the world

17:18

Right. Yes. There's more women than men. So they're not actually a minority group but then they're viewed it as a

17:23

Protected class and and and part of what that means is that anytime you talk about a woman being held responsible for her actions and almost any way everyone is trained, you know automatically to kind of cringe and To think oh, you know, you're not really allowed to talk about that.

17:39

That's taboo It is it really is and I mean, it's a very strange thing and it's But it's a very obvious thing when you open your eyes and look and you see hey what's actually happening any time of you know, a man like I'm a man and I'm and You're asking me as a man like a question, you know, should women be put to death for murder and it's like well, you know like instantaneously

18:00

I'm viewed as a member of the you know oppressor class and Then you know and me even answering the question

18:08

It's like I'm exercising patriarchal dominance over women and you know reabusing them by my words, you know

18:13

And so I mean, it's really kind of absurd when you think about it But then everyone's playing by this playbook whether they realize it or not

18:19

And that's why everyone cringes and that's why everyone thinks like oh, you're not allowed to go there but then part of the strategy has been to view women in that kind of way and part, you know part of that is coming from I Think the reason why

18:33

I put it this way I think the reason why Christians kind of thoughtlessly fall into this kind of rhetoric is Because we do realize that it you know, it takes two to have a baby, right?

18:43

Right? And so you think to yourself Well, there there obviously is some man involved in that equation somewhere.

18:50

Where is he at, you know? and everything else and so then You know when when

18:57

Eve eats of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil And Adam eat of it

19:02

Adam someone held fundamentally responsible in a more primary way and I think that you know for those kind of reasons that Christians just kind of thoughtlessly attached themself on to this strategy, which really is doing a lot more than that and essentially removing all moral accountability for women period, you know and and and Dramatically oversimplifying, you know, what's actually happening here on the ground, but all other things being equal

19:32

It's it's not true that you know every Act part of the rhetoric has been to basically paint women in this scenario as victims

19:44

And in in a pretty thoughtless way, I mean it's almost you say hey, you know abortions murder and it's like well

19:50

You know, what's a woman supposed to do if she gets raped or you know incest and those kind of situations and it's like yeah

19:56

Well, that's a very small percent of what we're talking about. But that isn't relevant, you know to the moral question behind it period and so Put all that together and basically just the idea though is that the

20:09

Bible says that Over and over and over again that the individual who takes another's life is going to be guilty of bloodshed and The punishment for that is always in the

20:22

Bible murder So if this is a baby if this is a human being and a woman is seeking to actively end their life

20:28

You know it Generally speaking it doesn't really I mean, it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger

20:34

I mean if she hires a hitman to do it, she's involved in the same act and and so yes, she should be punished for it

20:44

So obviously there's going to be you've already mentioned this there's going to be a lot of people who

20:51

Don't listen very well to what you're saying and they're just going to throw out the generic Accusations Against you that they always try to use to drown out any kind of thought out response to What they're pushing and so I want to give you the opportunity

21:14

To prove them wrong. Basically, they're going to say that well, you just you just care about punishing the woman

21:20

You just hate women You know those those types of arguments are often brought up and I'm sure that people listening who are for abortion will think those things about You and I as well.

21:31

So I want to give you the opportunity to maybe dispel some of their arguments whether whether they listen or not is another topic altogether, but What do you you know you talked you talked a little bit about?

21:46

Yeah, the women they're responsible, right? It doesn't matter if they're the ones actually doing it or not.

21:53

They are responsible. So So that's clear. But then you know, what about what about the the doctors who are

22:04

Who are actually killing the babies while they're still in the womb and you know, obviously

22:10

Like like we said, it takes two people to make a baby right normal, you know

22:16

Normally, it takes two people to make a baby. So so what what kind of punishment? Should the should the father face as well when it comes to abortion?

22:27

So what what punishment should the doctors face? What kind of punishment should the father face?

22:35

Sure, yeah Well You started by saying hey, you know people will hear this as an attack on women and the issue is not

22:44

I mean Let's try to do both parts of that. So is it attack on women and then

22:50

What about the other people involved right? Right. So with the is it attack on women kind of thing?

22:56

What's funny about that is you it's it's like well abortion is obviously attack on women Think about it, you know

23:05

Like I'm the one saying we should quit killing, you know women Right, right.

23:11

Yeah, so I I I don't mean to hijack everything You're about to say and throw off your train of thought, but I I did see a

23:19

Tweet from I think maybe it was Hillary Clinton Who said who you know was saying?

23:27

Hey, we want to protect the rights of our granddaughters and she was talking about that in the context of Abortion to get an abortion, you know, and and I just I just had to laugh at that Because what she was saying was actual insanity, you know

23:46

Hey, we need to we need to protect our rights to kill our granddaughters

23:51

So that our granddaughters will have right. It's like I know and this was funny I mean, this was funny about the whole discussion because it's happening on that level

23:59

But then it's also happening with the race discussion I mean Margaret Sanger's project was to put Planned Parenthood's in the ghettos, you know, so that they could kill off the

24:08

Kill off as many black people as they possibly can right and the abortion is seen as like a civil rights issue

24:14

You have to have the right to get an abortion because you might want to bring a child into poverty and everything else but then it's like You know if you care about black people, you're gonna vote

24:22

Democrat But then the problem is if you care about black people, you're gonna want to stop abortion, right?

24:27

And who's trying to do that the Republicans at least they say they're trying to do that But you wonder if there is committed to it as they say

24:35

But but the issue though is it's just like hey, yeah I want to protect the rights of black people to be alive right to be born and I want to protect the rights of women to be born and not to be murdered by their bloodthirsty mothers, right so so which like the issue is it's not like Which is which women are you going to support right?

24:58

And I want to support the ones who are Just wanting to be alive not the ones who are trying to kill other people.

25:04

So It's not whether you care about women. It's just Like if you do care about women, then you probably want that keep them from being ripped apart in their mother's womb

25:16

Like that's the point Seems like I guess a good starting point. Yes I I care about them like and they've not done anything worthy of being ripped apart, you know

25:27

So I would rather protect them, you know from their moms, you know who are

25:35

Not being very motherly like to them. So there's that but then you know, then the question what should happen to the other people?

25:42

I just I think it's It all depends on the scenario, I mean obviously, you know, whatever you're talking like here's the thing

25:50

It's just like I think the pro -life rather rhetoric has been hey, let's criminalize abortion. Let's go after the doctors or whatever

25:58

Well pro -life is often not even going after the doctors and then it's more just let's try to you know

26:05

Make it safe and legal and rare or make it legal and rare, you know, or have some kind of heartbeat bills or whatever else

26:13

But I mean, I think it that's strongest the pro -life movement was like, okay, let's penalize the doctors and I say hey

26:19

Yeah, I mean Whoever the doctor are whether that's a woman doctor or a man doctor Whatever we're saying related to the woman that should be happening to them too, right?

26:28

I mean, I think You know abortionists are you know on The level of evil as Hitler when it comes right down to it and I mean just like someone like You know hermit

26:43

Gosnell or whatever it guys name was who has jars of baby parts inside of his you know

26:53

Lab or whatever. I mean you'd like you you are I don't know this special place in hell for abortion doctors and the ones who wake up and actually repent of it are

27:05

Are the individuals who are the most I would say that they're Culpable even to a greater degree sure, right?

27:12

They're the ones cutting them apart and I mean there's no You know I think that there is a category particularly in the past of a woman who could be deceived in the thinking oh, it's just a clump of tissue and cells and Everything else.

27:26

It's not a person. I think as technology is progressing that kind of thing is like less

27:33

Reasonable, but I do think that these doctors are certainly preying upon People and filling their head full of lies, but I think those lies have to kind of be willfully believed, you know

27:47

Particularly at this point to where it's not just some you know It's not just a simple scenario as far as that goes but Certainly, yeah,

27:59

I think the doctor the one doing chopping the baby up like whatever it said What you know capital punishment applies to them to now with the men involved in their life.

28:08

I mean, I'm I'm sure that There are scenarios Like that's that's more complicated it's just more complicated because there's there's all the scenarios all across the spectrum, right?

28:22

So, you know in the case where the man rapes the woman which is less than 1 % of a port of reported cases sure,

28:31

I mean That is a gross sin equally deserving of condemnation

28:39

Okay In a scenario where a man is pressuring the woman to go get the abortion

28:45

He's in on it to everything we've said about the woman applies to him, right? So in that scenario,

28:51

I'm sure but I'm also sure that there's been plenty of scenarios where Like the woman gets pregnant.

28:57

She doesn't want to have a baby Right now because it mess up her career and she doesn't even tell the guy that she's getting an abortion so I don't know what to tell you at that point if they're married and she hides it from them and Everything else like it's not as if he even knows at that point, right?

29:12

And so like that like that is a scenario that is real that has happened. That's not uncommon.

29:18

So You know, what scenario are we talking about and we can't just you know, pretend like that kind of thing never happens either, right?

29:27

So if you're talking about, you know a guy Getting a woman pregnant out of wedlock and You know putting her putting her in a bad situation where she feels like there's no way out of it

29:41

And that's where she goes that still isn't the right response. Did he know about it? Did he pressure her is he involved in it?

29:47

You know, if if in any sense he's pressuring her and he's refusing to take care of the baby Then I would say

29:57

Like if he's pressuring Whatever man is pressuring her to get an abortion is you know, basically

30:03

Doing the moral equivalent of taking out a hit on the baby's life. Does that make sense? Right? And so but if he's not pressuring her to get it and she's doing it against his will and what yes his wishes and that's

30:15

On her, you know, that's on her and the doctor. Does that make sense? Mm -hmm so basically whenever an abortion happens, it's not just Grab a rope and find a tree.

30:30

It's you know, grab two maybe three ropes and find a tree

30:36

Well, yeah, depending on who's involved. I mean, you know when I was doing sidewalk counseling I It was interesting because I it's one of those

30:47

Ministries that doesn't bear a lot of fruit And you know, we're kind of encouraged to not speak in moral condemnation

30:55

Kind of categories and that kind of stuff, but I didn't really listen to that kind of thing But I remember there was an

31:01

African American. I remember there's an African American lady who has taken her 15 year old daughter I I'm guessing her age, but she's you know, 13 to 15 kind of years old

31:13

So something like that and not all the ladies were that age But so I mean then that's that's not what was happening.

31:20

But as far as I could see on any like as a frequent thing but this one was and she was taking her daughter in to get an abortion or and I mean,

31:30

I looked at the girl. I didn't look at the mom I said, hey, you know your mom doesn't love you. That's what

31:36

I said. I Said your mom doesn't love you if she if she was that hey was that on your your script that they gave?

31:47

This is shaming the victim page. Hey, I was shaming the victim here and blaming them, you know I guess what

31:53

I was doing, but I looked at her and I said, hey, you know Your mom doesn't love you because you only have like about 15 seconds to kind of talk to these people as they hurriedly rush past You into the clinic and you have like these escorts up there who are gonna, you know do that But I mean,

32:07

I looked at her and I said, hey your mom doesn't love you. I Said if she loved you, she wouldn't take you to this place

32:14

Where they're gonna go and kill your baby, you know, she loved you She would protect you from this like you're gonna have to deal with this for the rest of your life

32:21

And you're never gonna be able to forget That you killed your child and if she loved you and if she cared about you

32:27

She would take you as far away from here as she possibly could but she doesn't she only cares about herself

32:33

And how this is gonna make her look. That's what I said, but then What what was interesting was she looked at me like with this look of like Disgust the mother right?

32:46

Mm -hmm. And I don't know if it was discussed. It was more just like, you know, how dare you? white boy

32:53

But She like she grabbed her like she she grabbed her daughter like with her right, you know right hand and Pulled her close to her and she turned around and she walked the other way, you know

33:10

And and and I and I'll tell you that that was like one of the only times I ever saw a mother walk away But you know, you're supposed to not say things like that, but I hope

33:20

I don't know what happened from there I hope she didn't just come back later, you know, right but But you know, that was the only time

33:27

I ever saw a mother walk away, you know I that's the only time I saw I mean one of the only times I've ever seen a person really walk away right, but it was but But that's right though, you know, like that's that's right.

33:40

If she loved her she wouldn't have Been there, but how did I get there? What's the question again

33:48

We were asking You Know what is the We were talking about what's the punishment, you know for the for the doctor for the guy involved and You had been explaining that, you know, it's complicated

34:04

Depend especially for the guy involved. It kind of depends It kind of depends on what really happened and were they pressuring the person

34:15

To get an abortion did they know about the abortion and I think you're specifically talking at this point about Pressuring the

34:28

Young girl is clearly being pressured by her mother but you know, and I think her mother at that point when you call her on it

34:36

You know, maybe it woke her up a little bit But yeah, whatever you're what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to view everyone in some simplistic category as if they're a victim

34:45

Essentially, right? So everyone is just you know the 13 year old girl being pressured and certainly that happens and In those kind of cases and certainly the people who are pressuring or are involved in the process, you know sure, you know

35:01

So, you know with that kind of mother. Yeah, she she is Conspiring to commit murder and she's guilty of that too

35:10

And you know if they're a guy behind the scenes whoever the guy is is conspiring to commit murder sir

35:16

You know, whatever he's seeking to do this child. He should be done to him So but there's no simplest.

35:22

It's not as if every scenario is exactly the same in that kind of way but the real offensive thing is to say the woman is like To be held any with any moral responsibility for anything and the poor lock movement hasn't want to do that You know because they're basically afraid of the feminist.

35:41

Yeah, and so So let's just say the strategy has been just accept basically the the premise that all men are just you know abusers and rapists and you know by definition of them having power, you know, essentially and that the women are the innocent victims and Like let's not like go there and speak on those terms.

36:03

But the problem with that is that you remove Here's the problem is like when you do that Everyone knows that it's not a serious argument.

36:11

You're making at that point, right? Do you see what I'm saying? Explain explain a little bit

36:18

Like if you refuse to like check is it murder or not if we're saying it's murder then why aren't we treating them as if?

36:24

They commit murder, right? And if you don't treat them as if you commit murder, you'll you'll forgive the pagans for thinking

36:30

We don't actually believe it's murder Yeah, yeah, if we thought it was murder we would treat it as murder

36:36

But we you know, if you just like how well, you know, they're just an innocent victim caught up in the system It's designed to oppress them.

36:41

It's just like well you obviously aren't You don't actually think this is what you're saying. It is if you did you have a different reaction to this, you know

36:48

Mm -hmm. Let's call your bluff and and quite frankly. I think that many Christians aren't they really deep down They don't think it's murder if they did they would handle it differently than what they do.

36:58

Oh, yeah, absolutely The more the more I've looked into Organizations like end abortion now with um

37:08

Crap what's the name of the the guy who founded it? I'm totally blanking on him right now

37:16

At Apologia or Yeah, yeah Jeff Jeff the more of I've watched a lot of their things and really listened to Him Explain a lot of their positions.

37:32

It really has been kind of eye -opening in terms of you know comparing guys like him to a lot of a lot of the pro -life people out there, especially in government right now where It's a strange like it really doesn't make sense to say that the woman is a victim

37:53

It doesn't make any sense at all like if you're if you're some person and you know

37:58

You hate your brother and so you go and you hire an assassin to go kill your brother

38:05

Who and their right mind is gonna look at that scenario and say hey look the brother's just a victim of his circumstance

38:12

Right. They're gonna say that was a horrible thing that he did and he needs to go to he needs to at least go to Prison, you know for what he's done

38:19

But then people refuse to think that way when it comes to abortion. We always want most pro -life people always want to view the mother as just a poor helpless victim who is

38:32

You know being taken advantage of and she's been forced into this position. And what else was she supposed to do?

38:39

Yeah, I mean, I think it's complicated because I think it it can be that both things can be true at the same time right

38:46

And I think that that's basically, you know If you think about how total depravity works and just a doctrine of sin in general

38:53

All of us are victims and villains at the same time Right, like when you think about it, so like if you think about like any

39:01

Sin that we commit Like just Like lying for instance like Like in order to I mean people like they learn to lie based on I mean we don't all start out innocent

39:18

We start out like deeply flawed. Yeah, and so there's sins that are inherent to us period but then at the same time we have examples of people who

39:29

Examples of people who take those in inborn tendencies towards sin and give them expression, right?

39:35

So, I mean if you grow up in a family full of liars and swindlers Sure, like are you a victim of you know, your upbringing?

39:41

Well, yeah sure, right like you weren't you're taught from an early age how to be deceitful and how to be a liar and Everything else and like if you live in like a

39:50

Jewish society in the first century and then Jesus is gonna look at Nathanael He's gonna say hey, you know behold an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.

39:57

Ha ha ha We all know that you guys are swindlers just like Jacob was right? Uh -huh and Laban, right? Like well, they learn that kind of thing and that becomes characteristic of a certain society, right?

40:08

But at the same time it's like are you a victim or are you a villain? Well, the answer is yes, right? Yes. Yes, I'm both right.

40:15

So I mean the same thing with like You know individuals who rape people, you know to talk about something that Is you know with the me too movement and everything else.

40:26

It's like, you know, most people who rape other people They were raped at an early age, right? and so but then like you can't just well you were raped at it and that's how most people come to Practice sodomy is that they had some her early, you know sexual encounter with an older man

40:44

Early on in their life and it's like well, yeah I mean you were a victim and now you have transitioned at some point in your life into a perpetrator

40:51

That's the way it works, right? And so the same thing's true of even like the 13 year old a 14 year old girl who is just forced into this and just I mean in most you know scenarios

41:03

No matter what you tell yourself Like there is like some sort of knowledge that you're killing your baby and your parents are telling you you have to and you have

41:10

To but you're not objecting too strongly because you want it all to go away too, right? So it's not just simple.

41:16

It's not just simple like Like you're a victim you're a villain and I think that a lot of these discussions just go on the long those lines of well

41:24

Either they're full villain or they're full victim. It's like hey, yeah, maybe they're a little bit of both, you know Like maybe they're like, okay, like let's take a scenario where you know, a woman is sleeping around with a man

41:38

Who that she's not married to she's you know, 19 years old there in college you know, both of them had too much to drink and whatever else and they're

41:47

Engaged in consensual sex whatever right? Well, what and then she gets pregnant and she doesn't tell the guy about it

41:54

And then she goes and has an abortion Alright, well, she victimized, right?

42:01

well Yes to some degree is she a villain yes, you know

42:07

So like it's not it's not a simple so like whose fault was it that they slept around they both had you know intercourse

42:16

Well, isn't it both of their fault they're both drunk who's who's you know, who who do you blame? Well, if you're a feminist you say well the man was the rapist because you know

42:23

He shouldn't have sex very and she was drunk was like what she was drunk and he was drunk They're both drunk like whose fault is it both their faults, right?

42:30

Does a man bear more responsibility because God's gonna look at him? Sure, maybe right but at the same time

42:37

They're both involved in that she got pregnant. He even know that she was, you know He might not have even known in that scenario.

42:42

She was pregnant now She goes and get an abortion. Well if he had respect and he wouldn't have got her, you know he wouldn't have been drinking with her knowing that that's the kind of thing if she was a

42:54

You know resisted the urge to drink and it wasn't you know coerced drinking or something like that Like both of them bear some moral responsibility for this inevitable for this outcome, right?

43:05

To some degree but then they're both victims of both Villains in a certain sense like he's a victim in that she killed his child without knowing about it

43:12

She's a bit. She's a victim in that he had sex with her before wedlock, right?

43:19

Mm -hmm. I can so it's just I think you know, these scenarios they're typically pretty complicated and like just waving a victim universal victim flag over anyone is just Probably not doesn't fit the vast majority of situations when it comes down to it

43:34

But then I mean, I think the opposite is true too. I mean, it may just be that waving your universal villain

43:41

Over it Isn't is maybe an oversimplification, but I mean at the end of the day, here's the thing

43:46

I mean, it's just like if we are talking about murder if that's what we're talking about You know, it doesn't matter all the things that preceded to it up to it.

43:55

It's still wrong, right? And that's that's the point and you know

44:00

I mean I get tired of like looking at all the pro -life tweets or whatever out there who you know, 13 year old girl

44:07

Bravely decides to have her baby You know Despite the fact that she's 13 and blah blah blah blah blah.

44:14

It's like that isn't an act of bravery It's not like that's just called not being Hitler, right?

44:20

Mm -hmm Like why did we lower the standard? Like I'm glad she had the baby, but I mean don't act like it's bravery to not like rip your baby and shreds

44:28

Yeah, because it was happy you had it at an inconvenient time I mean like come on, you know, like this isn't bravery.

44:34

That's called just being a decent human being Yeah, this can't be the ceiling this needs to be the floor Sure. Sure.

44:41

Yeah. Yes, you know Thank you for not murder savagely murdering someone like, okay, you know but Whatever that is.

44:51

That's not virtuous. That's just That's something else right? But then I think we surrender the whole argument when we you know, even think in those terms, but Anyways So this this might feel kind of like a stupid question at this point

45:06

But I feel like we need to take some time to talk about it. So, you know,

45:12

I Mean we've been saying hey, this is wrong. This is bad. This is this is murder.

45:19

Whatever else. So is there any like Scripture that can help us when it comes to Abortion specifically to help explain for those who don't understand how it could be anything other than a

45:34

You know a woman's right issue that that might help them some scripture them that might kind of speak to what we're talking about But sure

45:45

I mean, I think the classic passage that most people go to is Psalm 139 13 which basically says for you

45:52

God for you formed my inward parts and you did it me together in my mother's womb Right. So that's how it says you knitted me together in my mother's womb meaning that essentially there is a

46:05

Person, you know who is being formed David who is being formed and he exists as a person while he's still within his mother's womb right that's one of the ways that you go to talk about establishing abortion as being murder is that You build a passage like that, but then also within the law.

46:25

I mean You know if a man Basically Harms a woman and her

46:35

Unborn child within her, you know, it's I could say he harms her to such a great unborn child is

46:42

Killed within her he's going to be put to death for that and the Bible considers the unborn child a human being

46:49

It doesn't consider the unborn child just some Thing, you know, he will be avenged life for life, you know

46:55

I've or I do for tooth life for life and and that's applied the lexillianus principles applied to the unborn baby even

47:02

It's over from a biblical perspective. God's the one who's knitting the baby together. This is considered a baby

47:09

It's you know you If you are involved in terminating that you're gonna be put to death biblically speaking

47:18

Mm -hmm So, you know, it's funny it's funny that you bring up the the passage about the man if a man accidentally

47:29

Kills an unborn unborn baby. I think it's essentially like if two men begin to fight and right and in the chaos of the moment there's a you know, there's a pregnant woman nearby and and she gets struck or something and and it kills the

47:44

Unborn baby then the man needs to be put to death. It's funny. You mentioned that because I actually had someone

47:51

Try to tell me that that exact passage is actually arguing for abortion and and it

48:00

You know, it was it was a idiotic argument Where the person was basically,

48:07

I don't know if they just didn't understand what the passage was saying or if they were trying to be

48:14

Dishonest And the and what the passage was saying and try to deceive people but I mean

48:20

It's a pretty clear passage that say saying there is life in the womb and when it is terminated when it is killed then there's a penalty that must be paid and that's what the the

48:32

Israelites were held to Not you know not not the other way around where if Something happens to the unborn baby then, you know, oh, well big deal.

48:44

It wasn't a human. So we're not gonna kill someone over it So, yes, it's

48:50

Exodus 21 22 to 25 It says when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so her children come out

48:56

But there's no harm the one who hit her shall surely be fine That's the woman's husband shall post on him and he shall pay as a judge determines

49:03

But if there's harm you shall pay life for life I for I tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn one for one right right by stripe

49:10

I think what he when you talked told me about that I think he was reading it in the King James and the

49:16

King James. He was making a poor assumption about it based on that Or something like that.

49:22

I'll see what does the King James say it says Let's see,

49:28

I can pull it up If men strive and hurt a woman child so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow

49:45

He shall surely be punished according to to Court lay upon him and he shall pay as a judge if any mischief follows then thou shalt give life for life

49:55

I can't remember what I can't remember what his argument was. It's been a while, but I think he was something about the fruit

50:04

Depart or something along those lines, but I think that's a clear passage though.

50:10

That is definitely saying, you know If no harm then no foul, right, right fine.

50:17

There's a fine Yeah, but if the fruit depart if the you know miscarriage happens, it's life for life.

50:23

I for I do for tooth stripe for stripe, right, there's a lot of The Jeremiah 2017 because he did not kill me before birth so that my mother would have been my grave in a room ever pregnant

50:36

He's just lamenting that God didn't kill him before his birth like meaning he was alive Right, he was and he was a person

50:44

He was a person. Yeah, yeah you know like you can even think about the

50:51

You know the children not being born yet and Romans 9 Jacob and Esau right not being born

50:56

They were in their mother's womb not being forbidden chapter. Not. Yeah, not even they

51:03

Haven't even done evil or good yet, you know, but God made a choice

51:09

Even in that condition, but like there's I mean I think there's so many passages like this that could come to mind and that's just a few that instantaneously kind of come to mind but But yeah

51:24

So not only I'm sorry, keep going keep going Well, you know like John the Baptist sleeping and you know his mother's womb kind of thing, too

51:31

You know, there's just so many I can't say more but um, so Obviously, there's a lot of scripture that you know where God tells us

51:42

Babies who are unborn they're still in their mother's womb. They're still babies There's still people they're human beings made in God's image and God has told us to unjustly take life from another human being made in the image of God is

52:02

Wrong and evil and sinful but then, you know, not only does the

52:08

Bible tell us this but obviously science also Tells us a similar thing, you know, it's the same genetic code that that the fetus has

52:19

Compared to us, you know, they're they're obviously still developing but then In definitional terms, they're still a human being right?

52:29

It's not a matter of they will one day be a human being it's they are actually right now from the moment of conception a human being and so so in one sense when it when we're having this discussion and we're talking about people who are

52:45

Pro baby murder who are pro abortion abortion It seems like not only

52:52

To to take this position. Not only do you have to deny the

52:58

Bible? Do you have to deny scripture, but you also have to deny? You know modern science and really just common sense, too but then

53:11

You know you hear from Democrats and progressives a lot of times you've you hear a lot the term being thrown around, you know science denier, especially as it relates to Kovat and and The the rights response to Kovat essentially asserting.

53:33

Hey, you guys are denying the science You're denying the science if you would just believe the science you would come to the same conclusions.

53:40

We're coming to which is funny and ironic because while they're

53:48

While they're making that claim. They are actually the ones who are denying clear

53:55

Science and much more clear than the Kovat stuff right now much more clear and they're denying it

54:01

But then no one no one's really coming out and saying hey, y 'all are y 'all are a bunch of science deniers

54:07

Y 'all are y 'all are a bunch of lunatics, you know So so why do you think?

54:14

Why do you think that's the case that? While While it's happening they're denying science.

54:24

No one's actually coming out and saying Hey, you're denying you're the science denier.

54:30

So maybe stop. Yeah Yeah, I think it's but that's happening in almost every single level and I think

54:36

I think that's part of the reason why like one of the things that just let me change the subject for a second in order to answer the question, but just to give you some

54:46

I mean just to give some examples of what you're talking about, but I Remember with the 2020 election.

54:52

It was very funny because it was like For you know, basically

54:59

From 2016 to 2020 you basically had a

55:05

Group of people like on the left you were just screaming and just refusing whatsoever to accept the results of the 2016 election

55:12

I mean you had the media you had everyone it's just refusing to accept the results of this 2016 election.

55:18

I've never seen a meltdown on the left so much as with that the Aftermaths of that.

55:24

I mean when Trump was elected, it was like I knew he was gonna get elected because I saw you know Where things were headed? But then when he was elected you can just like you could see these people who were just their world was shattered

55:35

You know and they even know how to like do life anymore. Yeah, I remember the video of the girl screaming.

55:41

No Things where you just see people just like utterly unable to see reality at that point

55:53

But you know for four years, you know for four years It was just like, you know that you see a group of people not accepting the outcome of an election

56:02

But then, you know leading up to the 2020 election the over and over and over again if you remember what happened in the news they kept on saying over and over and over again like You know

56:13

Trump if you lose will you accept the outcome of the election, right? you know and Trump was gonna you know stage a coup and he's not gonna leave office and he's just gonna

56:22

Do all this stuff and it's just like what in the world is going on here, you know Like what in the world like what what makes you think he's not gonna accept the outcome of an election, right?

56:31

Like what makes you think that he's like you guys are the ones who've been doing this for four years, you know But then almost at every point so you remember like the

56:39

Russian collusion hoax. Yeah Like it so they did that the whole time like the left did that the whole time this

56:45

Russian collusion hoax And then it turns out that oh, maybe that was Hillary Clinton who was And everything else but then you hear about it and and one of the things

56:55

I bring those kind of things up just to say that it was really startled it was really remarkable to me to watch this thing happen because in case after case after case it seems

57:04

To me that on the left what's happening is everything they're accusing the right of doing that's what they're doing themself, right?

57:11

So it is painfully obvious to it's pain it's painfully obvious I mean think about like the science denier myth kind of stuff, right?

57:20

What's like you Christians your science deniers? It's like well look, I Know that there's a kind of you know, ignorant

57:27

Christian out there who is you know? Anti all science and probably for good reason because science is about the clown themself

57:35

To such a degree but like think about like the areas of life that are out there Right now that are under dispute so we're told like all of science right now is pointing to the reality that you're like The world is increasingly complex, right?

57:52

So I mean that's what science I guess irreducibly complex like meaning like Like you're to say something's irreducibly complex.

57:59

It's like you're talking about a mousetrap. So Analogy so we have to think about a mousetrap every single component to a mousetrap is

58:07

Necessary for it to be a mousetrap you have to have the base you have to have the spring you have to have the you know the

58:14

Pressure plate lever pressure plate. You have to have all that you take any part of it away It ceases to function in any meaningful way and you look at the world

58:22

It's kind of like that and so there's no way to like gradually evolve into a mousetrap, right? Like you need each part is irreducibly complex

58:29

Now one of the things that Darwin said was like if you want to disprove my theory you have to show that the world is

58:35

Essentially, he didn't use this phrase But this is what he was saying you have to show them the world is irreducibly complex and and that science keeps on rolling in We see oh, it's way more complex now now what we can see like it's way more complex than they thought right like the very thing that there's would disprove this idea of in of random blind chance having

58:54

Involved, you know things evolving from simple things into complexes to show how complex it actually is Well, that's we have a science to show that now and yet we're not abandoning that theory

59:03

Now, you know with all the kovat masking stuff We've had like study after study after study showing that masks are ineffective for respiratory viruses for years

59:12

We had all of these and kovat comes up and we throw all that out the door And now I mean even top pouchy at the beginning of the thing told us that mass don't work

59:20

So don't go buy them then it became a political talking point now We need to and everyone knows that hey, this isn't like a spacesuit, you know like air comes through these things right and like viruses are

59:31

Just like throwing a baby through a tennis racket, it's not gonna work, you know We understand like the virus that respiratory virus is the size of them pretty small, you know

59:38

And so we know that it'd be like so but then we're called the science deniers as far as that goes

59:44

We say hey, you know, maybe these masks don't work, you know Like you're saying that they're gonna work because they're obviously don't have a self -contained oxygen unit and within them

59:53

They're just a piece of cloth, you know So but then, you know think about the transgender nonsense like if there's anything that settled science at this point

01:00:02

I just think about like what what is actually solid science that male and female are different. They have different chromosomes

01:00:07

We can look at their take their genetics XY XX, you know, like this is different, you know, like their

01:00:15

DNA their very body composition points to it So it seems to me that almost at every single point Yeah The point of this is just to say at almost every single point the left is doing what they're accusing us of and so they're

01:00:25

Saying hey, we're science deniers. It's like hey I think the science actually backs up the fact that God made them male and female

01:00:31

Yeah, the science backs up the fact that we're made irreducible confects. We didn't you know evolve from simple life -forms

01:00:37

There's nothing in like that isn't a way that actually thinks work The science backs up the fact that you know in this case that I mean you can do it ultrasound

01:00:44

We have 3d ultrasounds to see that this is a baby. We know that they're the babies feel pain You can look at ultrasounds as this baby is being ripped apart and seeing it jerk away violently from the knife

01:00:53

It's like cutting its limbs apart Or the you know The puncture that's sucking is vacuuming sucking its brains out so that it can its head can fit through the birth canal

01:01:03

We we can see what's actually happening here We have vivid pictures of what's happening that we see babies that are being born alive who are being killed

01:01:11

You know being scalped and having their you know Scalps put on mysis like we we have the technology now to show what we've all known for years and what every mother knows

01:01:21

Right. No, that's what's so absurd about it. Like honestly, it was so absurd about it. Is it but you know

01:01:28

Women know women know I could that's why they cry You know, you can have a woman who's pregnant for you know a few weeks and she has a miscarriage and she cries

01:01:37

It's like why are you crying? You know, that's just a clump of cells, right? She knows what it is, right? She knows it's a baby, you know, and that's why she cries and in you know, the women who get abortion

01:01:46

They can tell themself this all day long But they know and that's the point like they know if you loved them and cared about him you wouldn't try to validate this delusion because they know they killed their baby and And they have a natural intuition to know what what you know science shows us and confirms

01:02:03

Then they have the intuition to know what they're doing and then and that's why they you know, there's no recovering from it

01:02:09

Really? I'll never forget I'll never forget when all of the riots were going on I guess and The summer of 2020 now man.

01:02:21

It's almost 2022 And in the summer of 2020 when all those riots were going on.

01:02:27

I remember seeing an article at some point about Some some woman who was out during these riots and she got hit and I think

01:02:37

I guess the stomach with a bean bag from a police beanbag rifle and And everyone was making a big deal out of this and and I don't really remember

01:02:51

What the outcome of it was in terms of you know Was the was the lady?

01:02:58

All right, and was the baby? All right. I can't remember I really hope that they were both fine But I remember people making such a huge deal out of it and look at how brutal the police are and whatnot and I Remember, you know thinking while I was reading that this is a really strange argument to make if you're pro abortion you know to use this as an example of a violence, you know, because because essentially what was happening is

01:03:29

They were using it as like a look you can't you can't hurt pregnant people like especially if there's anyone you don't hurt it's pregnant people and and You know if something were to happen this would be in it like this would be this is essentially a much higher stake

01:03:48

Situation if there were damage to be done then to a normal, you know Lady who's not pregnant and I remember thinking like well why if your whole stance is that it's just a clump of cells then

01:04:00

Why you know, well, yeah, and I think that's where it's just so like the whole

01:04:10

Like the idea of choice now and like the evolutionary framework, you know

01:04:15

It all revolves around this idea of Mike my truth, right? So when you're in like a relativistic society where they're in a postmodern society where there is no such thing as that is real truth

01:04:26

Then essentially reality is what you define it to be right? So then if you

01:04:33

Want the baby then the baby becomes a baby, right? And my reality this is a baby

01:04:41

This is my truth my truth And so everything is you know up to this subjective whim of the individual if you are a man who thinks you're a woman you want

01:04:50

To be a woman, right? well The very act of desiring to be is real if it's real to you then it's real right and that's where It's just like you look at on the outside.

01:05:00

And if you're looking at it through the lens of hey, there is an objective truth It's nonsense But then to these kind of people the reason why they can't see it is because reality is determined by their whims

01:05:10

At the moment, right? Mm -hmm And they could you know change those whims at any moment and then you're guilty of a crime

01:05:20

But You know, so it's you know, it's my body my choice, right? So if I decide that I want this baby it becomes a baby if I don't want it

01:05:29

It is a clump of cells, you know, it's all up to me and how I wish to define it, right?

01:05:35

Mm -hmm but surely There's no objective basis for Any law that can be, you know imposed at that point.

01:05:44

Yeah I think so right now we're at I think about the one hour mark and I have a

01:05:52

Lot more questions that I want to ask you Tim about this Do you want do you want to do you want to do a part two on?

01:06:01

Should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered? Do you feel like that would be helpful?

01:06:08

Yeah, we could do another week. That's Okay. Well, I want to I want to ask you one more question and this actually isn't one

01:06:15

That I had on my script So I'm going off script here a little bit But I I've been thinking about this as I've been listening to you and I think it might be helpful just to hear

01:06:26

Your reasoning behind why you're doing this as we've been talking as we've been having this discussion

01:06:32

You know, you haven't really you haven't really shied away from being

01:06:38

Very descriptive in terms of what's happening. So for example earlier when we were talking about You you were talking about the response that you know babies have in terms of When when the doctor is performing the abortion, you know, he's sticking that he's sticking the knife in he's vacuuming out the brain

01:07:02

You know ripping ripping the arms and the legs off of the baby while it's while it's still alive

01:07:08

You've not you've not really shied away from From describing these these things in detail and and I want to know

01:07:16

Is that is that purposeful? Are you I mean whenever I've heard pro -life people in General, you know

01:07:24

Talk about abortion. I've never really heard people Explain in detail

01:07:32

What's going on and use that as Part of their argument. It seems like normally they try to shy away from all of the details of abortion

01:07:40

I guess because maybe it's too grotesque or or it's taboo or something

01:07:45

I'm not really sure but but is that personal I mean personal is that purposeful on your end in terms of Describing what is actually happening?

01:07:56

when when someone gets an abortion Yeah, I I Know the pro -life movement is it pretty much discourages that sort of thing?

01:08:09

In a pretty comprehensive way. I mean there is it's there's obviously You know the pro -life movement

01:08:17

It's not like a monolith or whatever but there's clear kind of structure and organization and one things that they discourage is being overly graphic and that kind of thing and and in one of the things that they

01:08:29

I think you know showing the pictures of the baby and that kind of stuff and showing the pictures of Of like the pile of baby body parts on the table, you know next to the syringes next to the scalpels and stuff like that they typically

01:08:46

Discourage that kind of thing and I think that people who are more on the abolitionist end of things are

01:08:51

More graphic as far as that goes and there's a whole discussion about abolitionism versus incrementalism as it relates to that thing that Probably needs its own let own episode or whatever right but in general,

01:09:06

I You know, I I'm I'm not really looking at it like as a pro -life leader or something like that I'm just looking at it as a

01:09:13

Christian and I mean, I know that there's plenty of people in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust that basically are just trying to pretend like They don't know what's happening, right so I mean human be

01:09:28

I know I know just based on My study of scripture and counseling background that people, you know, have a great capacity sword towards self deception and if something's out of sight, it's kind of out of mind and abortion is one of those things where I think for the vast majority of people we

01:09:45

We don't we just want to pretend like it's not happening, right? Yeah, the same way when we want to pretend like we don't know what is happening to the you know the

01:09:56

Train full of Jews headed to Auschwitz with the smokestacks and everything else It's like you keep your head down mind your own business.

01:10:03

Don't worry about it And if you do that, then you kind of don't feel any imperative to really do much as far as that goes

01:10:10

You can just pretend like hey, you know out of sight out of mind. You're like the ostrich You're sticking your head in the sand and hoping you know, everything goes away, right?

01:10:18

And so in my mind like the issue is Like this is a moral issue.

01:10:24

We're ripping babies up in their mother's womb and it's a pretty gruesome procedure and I think

01:10:33

I Think you know the subject itself is kind of clouded and in terms of our use of euphemisms like, you know abortion and that kind of stuff and fetus language and everything else

01:10:48

I think we try to do everything we can to soften the blow and I think essentially that's what the pro -life movement is trying

01:10:53

To do is to do everything they can to soften them the moral issues that are at play in order to gain some sort of consensus

01:11:00

But then the problem is it's just like I think you're starting with a faulty framework, right?

01:11:06

And so I think what the pro -life movement is failing to do is they're spilling to speak to this as a moral issue

01:11:13

And so they're stripping all their language and their tools like you're stripping all the moral issues involved because I mean the truth is it's like if this is like, you know it these are babies that are being like ripped up and Like if you you know, you only have to all you have to do is watch an ultrasound of it happening

01:11:34

And you'll probably be scarred for life, you know Mm -hmm, and I can't get it out of your brain and the point though is just to say that that's

01:11:42

Like there's a type of like I think I don't think the right response is to try to hide people from this

01:11:48

But then the problem is is if you do that then like you force people to draw sides, you know in a very clear way because I mean when it comes right down to it like this like the abortionists like Like if people understand what's actually happening, they'll understand that these abortionists are, you know worse than Nazis And like they're you know, it there's a you know

01:12:14

You're gonna be an awful punishment awaiting for them on the last day, you know, the worst Intensity of hell is gonna be reserved for that kind of person who just is destroying lives

01:12:23

Just I mean, you know, I've heard testimony of a former abortionist. You've killed thousands of babies

01:12:29

They've done this thousands of times. Can you imagine what it would be like to? Like rip babies apart like thousands of babies apart, how could you do it, you know, but we just you know

01:12:39

Out of sight out of mind we wrap it in you euphemism. We pretend it's a clump of sales You know, we're filled with a bunch of lies and their lies that we want to know and you know

01:12:47

I I just don't you know I haven't adopted this kind of framework that says that in order to be loving you a lot of people and So, you know my moral intuition doesn't go that way

01:12:58

I don't think that I think the truth will set us free and we need to be honest and truthful about what's actually happening

01:13:03

And that's the only hope for people and I mean, that's why I responded to the lady I talked about the way I did and the girl

01:13:09

I talked about the way I did is because I feel like the truth will set us free and You know, you have to speak about it in moral categories, you know, yeah, this is what you have to do yeah, and so if you try to shelter people from that like you're not helping them to See yeah clearly

01:13:28

Yeah, what the actual danger is I remember I I didn't really understand

01:13:35

What the answer that you just gave I didn't really understand it for a long time and I remember at one point

01:13:41

I think I can't I can't remember if If my wife was was pregnant with Our baby or if she had already been born but I remember watching a video from end abortion now where it showed a guy who was a part of their group holding, you know, he was holding up a sign standing out on the sidewalk and the sign it it showed a a picture of a baby who had been killed in the womb and and It was a horrific picture,

01:14:21

I mean the baby the baby's head had been crushed and and It was covered in you know blood mangled and And its eyes were were open still and you know, obviously

01:14:39

Not, you know not showing any kind of life and just kind of like a thousand yard stare type thing

01:14:47

And and Below the picture the sign just said does anyone even care and I think when

01:14:54

I saw that That was probably that was probably the the turning point for me not in terms of of You know,

01:15:04

I was for abortion and and then all of a sudden I wasn't anymore when I saw that that picture

01:15:10

But more what I mean is just I had always been against abortion I didn't think it was right, but then

01:15:16

I think when I saw that picture That that was the point where I realized just how awful this is and just how serious the situation is and and how much something needs to be done about what's going on because I mean like you said

01:15:38

This is a picture of one baby, but then there's people doing this thousands of times you know and and So that picture that I saw has happened at this point six over 60 million times and You know,

01:15:58

I just don't think Any anyone who can look at that picture and then still say yes

01:16:06

We should have the right to kill our own baby in the womb. I just don't get it and I Really I really do see

01:16:16

I remember asking you Like why why would they show these things? Is this really the most helpful thing?

01:16:22

and I remember asking you and you kind of telling me a similar response to what you just said and and and Now I'm I'm totally 100 % on the same page, you know, we can't once you see these pictures you're forced you're forced to pick a side

01:16:41

It's too it's too graphic It's it's too Yeah, it's just too graphic to not have to not have a response to it one way or the other and and You know, hopefully more people

01:16:59

Start doing that and just start addressing the fact that This is gross and disgusting and wicked and evil and that'll actually

01:17:11

Open people's eyes to the truth of the matter. Yeah. Yeah, I think you the problem is that we're told like in order to Like love people essentially you try to shelter them from right all the harsh realities that there are in the world

01:17:28

Then so I mean that's what we're trying to do to the women It's like in order to be loving to the women to gain consensus, you know

01:17:34

You don't put it in the moral categories that you're doing and we're trained a lot of people at every conceivable level, right?

01:17:40

Mm -hmm. And so I mean men are trained to lie to women like we're trained to lie I mean, we're basically just like, you know, think about all the masking stuff.

01:17:49

We know it doesn't work We're told to lie to each other in order to make everyone feel better And the same thing is happening with this kind of moral issue is that we're based and we the church is telling people to do

01:17:58

That you know, that's all the friendship evangelism kind of stuff It's just like you don't go in there and you say hey repent the kingdom of heaven is at hand you hateful bigot

01:18:05

I mean, come on, like what you do what you do is you try to win, you know earn the right to be heard be a friend first and you know, let them know you care about them and Indian, you know

01:18:14

I think that there's like a lot of Strategies like that are just trying to soften people from the harsh truth when

01:18:20

I mean really like in order for them to turn from their wicked ways like you you have to you know presented as what what it is and I mean,

01:18:29

I think You know like the the truth is that we're worse than Nazis and we don't even see it, you know

01:18:37

We're 10 times way worse than Nazis you know, we're an evil immoral reprobate society that has lost its way and and like the the thing is that like It's like when

01:18:50

Jesus confronted the rich young ruler, you know, he confronted him with the law and like that's you know, when you see

01:18:56

Stevens preaching to the Jews. He says, you know you murdered The Holy One of God and they were they gnashed their teeth and went on the attack and killed him, you know

01:19:06

Mm -hmm and like that's what's gonna happen like in our society I mean like the thing is it's just like if you speak the truth and you do so boldly

01:19:14

The society's gonna be mad at you. You're not gonna win the consensus that way But why would you want to win consensus with a bunch of Nazis?

01:19:20

Mm -hmm, you know, why would you want to do that? Like just you want the Nazis to repent and convert and no longer be

01:19:26

Nazis The only way they're gonna do that is if you you know, if the guys at work and they you speak clearly about what they're doing

01:19:33

But I think like part of the problem is that the pro -life movement is you know Not as fully committed to the propositions that they say they are and I think people know it, you know

01:19:43

And that's why you know plenty of your pro -life people don't seem overly committed to actually ending this thing, you know

01:19:51

Yeah, when it comes right down to it is because like deep down it's like I don't know that they believe what they're saying

01:19:57

You know Mm -hmm. So so my impulse isn't really the lot of a bunch of people would say, okay, let's

01:20:05

Treat it like it what it is, you know, right? Well, okay We'll end it there and then we'll do us a part two episode on this because like I said

01:20:14

I still have a lot of questions that I want to ask you that I think might be helpful for people who are listening to us talk about this topic, but until until Next week.

01:20:26

This has been another episode of Bible bashed We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion