September 11, 2018 Show with Gerald T. Smith & Chris MacDowell on “Making Abortion Mill Evangelism a Grass Roots Ministry for Volunteers in the Local Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 11th day of September 2018.

And this is our first live program since returning from Jacksonville, Florida, and it was such a blessed time to be fellowshipping once again with my dear friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and also to meet many brethren in Christ for the first time who were there at both the conference and the debate that he and Dr.

Michael L. Brown participated in and also to be reunited with old friends, two of which

I have not seen since the early 1990s, Richie Saxon and his wife,

Patti. Richie Saxon was once the pastor of Beth Yeshua House of Jesus in West Sayville, Long Island, and I developed a very strong friendship with him and kind of lost contact after a while, after the mid -90s when he retired from ministry and went into secular work full -time and he moved to Jacksonville, Florida, and this is the first time that I have seen him since the early 1990s.

What a joy it was to fellowship with him and his wife in his home. And I just could go on and on and on about what a wonderful time

I had in Florida, but I will do that at a later date. But today,

I'm delighted to have on the program for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reginald T.

Smith and Chris McDowell. They are both deacons and leaders of the Pro -Life ministry at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and today we are addressing

Making Abortion Mill Evangelism a Grassroots Ministry for Volunteers in the

Local Church. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Smith and Chris McDowell.

Yes, and it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. I love listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and it has been a blessing, so to be able to be part of it is really something special.

Well, Jerry Smith and I go back many years. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that I first met you and began fellowshipping with you after the merger of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville and First Baptist Church of Merrick when we became

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island. Is that true? Is that about when we met? That is correct.

Yes, sir, that is. And then eventually you joined a sister church that we actually helped to plant, meaning

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island helped to plant, Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, where you both are now deacons.

And I had the privilege of meeting Chris. I probably met him before this, but I met

Chris McDowell in a more formal way of being introduced to him over lunch in New York City recently when we were all in attendance at an event that I orchestrated in New York City with Dr.

Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary where he was speaking on the effects of cultural

Marxism on the church and society at the First Baptist Church of Manhattan. But I believe that was at least the first time we were introduced.

Am I right, Chris McDowell? Yeah, that's the first time we actually got to meet each other formally.

We had probably seen each other a couple times with James White coming out to Long Island. One time,

I think there might have been some other time, but yeah, that was the first time we got to actually talk.

And I also know that you, Chris, are co -host of a podcast called

Crown & Covenant. If you could tell our listeners about that. Yeah, me and two brothers,

Lawrence Jeffrey and Warren Seppert, last year decided that we wanted to put some ideas out there and get people thinking in a

Biblical sort of way, a Biblical worldview to every area of life. So we started doing a podcast.

We haven't updated it in a while. It's been kind of a touch and go. It's a lot of work to edit those things.

But we took some of the ongoing issues of the day. We've talked about education, we've talked about politics, a number of different topics, and really just looked at what the

Word of God had to say about it and try to give the people something to think about.

So we've enjoyed doing it. It's just been very busy. We haven't done it recently.

And I know that you also blog at whenyourise .net. Yeah, that was something else

I had started a few years ago. And again, I haven't updated it recently. It's been very, very busy.

But if people are interested, I'll try to get back to it.

All right, great. Well, Hope Reformed Baptist Church, just to let our listeners know, it is a confessional

Reformed Baptist Church. It adheres to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of what the scriptures teach on the most primary matters involving not only salvific issues, but also church polity and the ordinances.

And pastored by my dear friend of many years, Pastor Rich Jensen. I knew

Rich even before he was the pastor there. He was an associate pastor over at another

Baptist church in Port Jefferson when I first met him. A retired homicide detective who became a pastor.

And he has been a very valuable friend and brother to me for many years. And I am so delighted that the

Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island is thriving. In fact, are you still in Medford? Because I know that you just moved into your own building for the first time.

I'm sorry, you guys were talking over each other. I'll let him go. Oh, tomorrow we signed the closing papers.

Oh, so you haven't actually moved into the building yet? Not yet. And where will that be?

Where is the building? It will be in Coram. Okay. All righty.

Well, tell us, I'll start with you, Jerry. Tell us about why the pro -life movement began to become such an important movement to you and an issue to you that it moved from merely being an ideology that you strongly believed in, but became something where you put your money where your mouth was, and you began to actively be involved in abortion mill evangelism along with Chris McDowell.

Tell us about your experience, Jerry. Sure, gladly.

About three years ago, some of the congregants at Hope had asked us if we had anything going in that regard as far as a pro -life ministry.

We had an outreach where we were out on the streets sharing our faith and such, but they asked if we had anything that we were doing with regards to pro -life, and we did not.

And soon after that, we did start visiting some of the abortion clinics in our area.

And for me personally, the understanding of the sanctity of life and the fact that abortion was wrong, is wrong, it took on new meaning when we started standing in front of these clinics and seeing the cars pour in, seeing the mothers week after week aborting their children.

It caused me to really take notice, and I started digging into Scripture even more to strengthen my understanding of what life was about, you know, the sanctity of life.

Why was life so important, and why was it viewed in such a way that a mom would go to an abortion clinic and kill her child?

It really was an eye -opener, and to be honest with you, it is not an easy ministry.

As we go there and we see this happening, it tears at you emotionally as well, but as I said, when

I dug into Scripture to understand even more about the sanctity of life, I went back to Genesis, and I read through Genesis 1, 25 -28 for instance, and it said, and God made the beasts of the earth according to their kind, and the livestock according to their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind, and God thought that it was good.

And then he said this, and God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the livestock, and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

And then God said this, so God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created him, and God blessed them, and God said to them, be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heaven, and over the every living thing that moves on the earth.

This verse took so much more meaning to me, and so much more of an understanding of the sanctity of life.

Who are we to say we're going to kill a child when it's

God who's creating that child? And not only is he creating the child, he's creating the child for a purpose, and he's created that child in his image and his likeness.

So this just took on a whole new essence to me, and it caused me to have compassion on those who didn't understand this, who didn't see this, who perhaps didn't even view life as life as we as a

Christian would know it, because that's ultimately the question. You know, what is an unborn child?

Is it a human? Is it a mere clump of cells? Is it something to be fought for?

And that comes down to the whole question of the pro -life movement. If the unborn is not a human person, there's no justification for abortion is necessary.

No justification is necessary at all. But if that unborn is a human person, then no justification for abortion is adequate.

Greg Koppel said that, and it really nails it. What is human life, and is it sacred in God's eyes?

And that's what got me moving. And Chris McDowell, tell us something about your journey.

In fact, maybe even go back a little bit earlier. I'm just curious because I don't know you, and I don't know your testimony, but were you always pro -life?

Was there a point in your life growing up perhaps where either you were indifferent or you were strongly pro -choice?

I have no idea. Why don't you tell us something about that? Oh, well, I've always been pro -life.

I was born, you know, I was born into a Christian family and you know, grew up going to church and having very conservative values and, you know, probably, well,

I used to think it was pretty stereotypical nowadays that the church seems to run the gamut and there's a wide range of perspectives and they're not always biblical.

But for me, I was always pro -life. I just, I think like most Christians, I was pro -life and I voted pro -life, but I didn't think much about it beyond that.

My thought was, well, we have to vote in, you know, the right politicians, so they'll elect, you know, they'll appoint the right justices and we'll one day see

Roe versus Wade overturned. And that was the extent of it.

Then a few years ago, I became, in my political journey, came to finally grasp the beauty of the

Reformed doctrines and became Reformed Baptist and I was starting to search out, you know, more information, you know, teachers and podcasts and sermons.

And I came across Apologia Radio with Jeff Durbin and they were talking about their pro -life ministry.

And our church was growing and we were relatively new to the church. We've been there a couple of years and the church is growing in people.

There was one family, the Spanarellis, who were involved in abortion ministry in addition to other outreach efforts and evangelism.

And they were looking to, you know, see that happen again. And so we were talking about it and we decided to do it and it was a few years ago, in August, where there was like a nationwide protest at Planned Parenthood.

And so that's when we first went out to these two different abortion mills. One was a

Planned Parenthood, one was a smaller one, just independently operated. And I had no idea what to expect.

It was something that, you know, we know what's happening but we don't generally think too much about it. And to see women going in, knowing what they were there for, that's when it finally hit home that this was going on every day.

You know, thousands of children are being killed every day and we just, all we're doing is voting and hoping.

And, you know, I posted on Facebook a while back that I'd never seen a child saved from abortion through my voting efforts.

The first time I saw a child saved from abortion was when the church was out on the sidewalk and calling out to the moms and offering hope and offering the gospel and finally seeing, you know, some women start to turn away, to hear that message and decide they couldn't go through with it and actually leave the place, sparing their child, you know, and looking forward to their future family rather than going through and executing their child.

That's when it really hit home for me, was once we actually got out there and told what was going on, then it became a passion and it was just, there was no stopping, you know, being out there so that we could be a voice for those who have no voice.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think it's no mistake that we are conducting this interview today on September 11th.

September 11th, to borrow a phrase from Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was speaking about, obviously, the

Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, who said, this day will remain in infamy.

September 11th, obviously, remains in infamy because nearly 3 ,000 people lost their lives on September 11th due to the terrorist attacks, not only in New York City at the

World Trade Center, but at the Pentagon building in Washington D .C.

and a plane that was forced down by heroic passengers in Pennsylvania.

But that was nearly 3 ,000 people and the world, other than the terrorists themselves and those who applaud what terrorists do, the world stood in shock and horror, grieving and expressing words of indescribable horror and mourning and compassion over that terrorist attack, or should

I say attacks plural, where 3 ,000 people approximately died. And yet many of those same people who would have and are still been horrified and would still, to this very day, share their righteous indignation, if you will, over the wickedness of those terrorists that were involved in those terrorist attacks, many of those same people, just like the terrorists, applaud and smile and rejoice and laugh and mock when they are considering a woman's so -called right to murder her baby.

And as I said, nearly 3 ,000 people died on September 11th in 2001.

Approximately, according to the World Health Organization, approximately 125 ,000 babies are murdered every day worldwide in abortions.

And so that puts a little perspective on something. When we think about how the world is still, at least those who are not terrorists or those who are in agreement with them, the rest of us, the majority of the planet, still, when speaking of 9 -11, we still tend to speak reverently with some kind of level of awe and compassion.

And yet today we have people, we have comedians on television, on national television, making fun of women murdering their babies and the liberals and the feminists do little to nothing in protest.

This is pretty disgusting, isn't it? I agree 100 percent, Chris. I think that one of the things that we we see when we're in front of these abortion clinics is a total lack of understanding of what life is.

And all too often the reactions are very bitter toward us and such like that.

I often think of Rusty Thomas. He had a sermon that he talked about, in God's economy all life matters.

And this came out around when the whole blue life matters and the black life matters situation came about.

And his sermon was such that he expressed the fact that, you know, what a people sow that they will also reap.

And what we are doing, and I speak of as a nation, what we're doing is reaping violence in the womb over and over and over again.

And we think nothing of it. Yet, like you've said, 9 -11 or even for that matter, we hear on the news of a rape or a murder or a killing and we're appalled by it.

We're even appalled by someone mistreating a puppy or a kitten. Yet we are not moved by the murder of children in the womb.

And I think a big part of that is the lies that have been told to the women and to the men in our society that that baby in the womb is a mere clump of cells.

It's not a baby. It's a mere clump of cells and it's out of sight and out of mind.

And one of the things we try to do when we're in the situation of being in front of these abortion clinics is to gently educate whoever comes, you know, that this is not just a mere clump of cells.

It's a human being. You know, often we use one of the tracks that was put out by 180, the 180 .com,

as a matter of fact, movie, where it describes, you know, at only 21 days after conception, that baby's heart begins to beat.

And we tell them it's beating in unison with yours, mom. And after 40 days, brain waves can be measured and so on.

In six weeks, the baby can be seen, you know, moving and responding. And at eight weeks, sucking his thumb.

And 12 weeks, it has eyelids, ears, toes, a fully formed mouth. And, you know, the fact that this individual is unique, it has a

DNA that has never been created before and will never be created again. And that this human life has everything it needs to grow and mature.

Yes, it's in the mother's womb, but it's an individual life. And I don't think that too many really understand that.

And those that do, don't want to understand it. Because a lot of times what we've experienced is the moms are coming for the sake of convenience.

Whether there be a life plan that they have set out for themselves, a career.

Or maybe they are afraid they can't raise this child. Or maybe they're up against family pushing them.

You can't have this child. You're too young. There's so many situations that occur. But one of the things that we try to offer them, we tell them, we have people who will adopt your baby.

We'll come up alongside you. We'll support your baby. We'll support you as you go through this.

Whatever it takes, we will do it to see that you don't murder your child.

But I just don't really think that many times they understand the significance of what they're doing.

Now, does that mean all of them don't understand? Probably not. There are probably some that don't care.

Well, ironically, I know that you two were inspired to conduct this abortion mill evangelism ministry.

You were inspired by the work in the same area that Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church and Apologia Radio and Apologia TV and Apologia Studios, that he has spearheaded out in Tempe, Arizona.

But ironically, he has told me in an interview, and by the way, if anybody wants to hear Jeff's interview as well on abortion mill evangelism, look up his interview on ironsharpensironradio .com

in the archive where it says, older shows, podcasts, and in the search engine there, type in D as in David, UR, B as in boy,

IN, Durbin. But he said that most of the women, and I'm pretty certain he said most, if not nearly all, but he said that they openly admit that they know that they're killing their baby.

I don't know if it's a different... Yes, I... Go ahead, go ahead. I remember hearing him say that.

So is your experience different on Long Island, New York, as far as what you're hearing the women admit?

I don't know that it's different, but what I guess I'm saying is, because their eyes are not open to the truth.

They don't have, well, they don't have their lives, in many cases, they're not

Christian. And that's where I think that we need to show, well, if you will, compassion.

And as Chris McDowell already alluded to, share the gospel as well, because there's two lives that need to be saved in this situation.

One is the life in the womb, the voiceless life in the womb, and the other is the mother, and perhaps even the father, if the father is there.

I strongly believe that if their hearts are changed by the

Lord, they would not, in fact, go forward with that murder of that child. So, well, tell us about your approach.

What is it exactly that you do and say so that those of our listeners who are tuning in today or perhaps hearing this program by podcast or recording at a later date, who are perhaps even interested or becoming interested now in starting a grassroots ministry in their own congregation or group of congregations, like -minded congregations, wherever they live, tell us exactly what your approach is.

What exactly physically do you do and what do you say when you are approaching people who are entering or leaving an abortion mill?

Well, first of all, one of the things that we have, we make sure that we have tracks with them to be able to hand out.

We also will provide them with information of where they can go.

For instance, one of the ministries is Soundview, which is a clinic that is a place that can offer a lot of help in the area, but we also have a number of signs that we're holding, some of them very graphic.

We have one that says, babies are murdered here, for instance, and that was one that we put together after we looked at the movie,

Babies Are Murdered Here. We have, virtually everybody is holding a poster of some sort that depicts either an aborted child or it has quotes on it, you know, to encourage them not to abort their children.

As far as what we say, we basically, and Chris could talk about this as well, we basically plead with them, please do not murder your child.

We are here to help you. We are here to guide you. We're here to offer whatever it takes that you should not abort your child, and then we'll share with them scripture.

We'll share with them the gospel. We often share our own lives.

I know, for instance, Chris and myself, we have children. We'll share with them the precious children that we have and the blessings that they are, but then we'll also share with them often what we have heard from women who have also gone through with abortions and how devastating it has been to them and how, although they've been told everything is going to be all right, everything will work out fine, it's a simple operation, but years and years later, they are still dreading, and this is both

Christian and non -Christian women, they're dreading what they did. We have a sister in our church who has shared many times what she goes through.

Thankfully, the Lord has eased her heart and given her peace through repentance and such, but she still shares with us how hard it was afterwards after having aborted her child.

I'm not sure if I answered your question, but... Well, I'm asking for basically everything you say and do when you're going to an abortion clinic.

People may be, and a lot of people are, introverted, they're shy, they may be frightened about what kind of reaction people may have to this kind of bold approach to them during something that they may be completely embarrassed about.

Of course, there are many Christians that have, they're uninhibited, they are very extroverted, and they are very bold and unrestrained in their evangelism, and they're approaching people to rebuke them, especially over something that involves a life -and -death matter here, but I'm speaking about basically everything that you say and do.

Of course, you would take a different approach, perhaps, as soon as somebody starts opening their mouths, they may be reacting in a different way than another person would, so you may be changing the approach or manner with which you do this.

Yes, you're 100 % correct. Yes, definitely. Okay. Yeah, as Jerry said, we have a number of ways of trying to reach those.

I mean, you have a very limited time from the point of them pulling into the parking lot and walking in that door.

I mean, seconds, really. So what's encouraging to me for our church is that the relatively small church, although it's been growing, and by reform, by standard,

I suppose it's not that small, but we have a number of faithful brothers and sisters who come out with us, a wide age range of people who come out in different walks of life, but they'll come out, and like Jerry said, we have signs for everyone.

In fact, I often invite people to come out and join us, saying, you provide the hands, we'll provide the signs.

We have signs of babies who are in the womb. We do have the graphic signs, as well.

We have tracks. We have brochures for Pregnancy Crisis Center. But as a body, we're constantly trying to tell them, as the body of Christ, we seek to be

His hands and feet. You know, we want to embrace them, walk alongside them, not leave them alone.

And as a church, we have committed to, if there are any women who turn away and need any sort of assistance, we will provide the resources necessary.

I mean, the Soundview Pregnancy Center, they have a doctor that they're affiliated with who volunteers his services, and so we talk about that.

But if someone needs counseling, if someone needs food or clothing or shelter, you know, if they need transportation, if they need even adoption services, you know, we have families who would love to adopt a child.

If they felt like they really couldn't raise the child themselves, although that would be the ideal, we'd be willing to pay for the adoption services to adopt.

We try to provide every answer, you know, to take away every obstacle.

Anything that they would come up with saying, well, I have this situation, I have that situation, you know, we ask them to talk to us so that we can hear their situation and show how we can help.

And so we're offering them every means of help and hope.

We offer them the gospel, you know, once they go in, we start early because they start early.

So six in the morning, we're at the first location. And in the location that we're at, at seven o 'clock, we're allowed to use amplification.

And so we put on the headset and we, over the microphone that we offer, all those things again, you know, and we know that they can hear us inside to some extent, and we offer those means of assistance, and we share the gospel.

I like to get into Scripture, like, I agree with Jeff, a lot of them, there's a callous indifference regarding life.

I mean, there are some who don't understand because they're being told a lie, they're being told they're not human and stuff, but there are some who know and just don't care.

And we see all sorts of reactions as people come in. Some of them are hostile, you know, they're flipping us the bird or whatever, they're cursing us out.

Some are just embarrassed and they got their heads down and they're shooting the door. Some are mocking, they have their camera phones out and they're videoing it as they walk in.

And I tell them the same thing, because I see it time and again. I said, you know, we have all these reactions going in, but I see the same reaction coming out.

I see broken people, I see people who, once their rooms are empty, they realize that their excuses and their justifications were just as empty, but now it's too late.

You know, they don't come out with that same fire, that same spite, they come out broken. And I tell them with the video cameras, you're not going to need a camera to remember this day.

You know, as my brother shared, we've spoken to women who, years later, decades later, they can't forget the day that they took the life of their child.

And so we encourage them to consider this and to come out and to talk to us. I like to go to Exodus 21 because they say, well, abortion is legal.

And so we say, well, slavery was once legal. It was legal to steal men, women, and children from their homes and ship them overseas and sell them like they were property, cattle.

We did that legally. The Holocaust was done legally with the German government.

You can't always equate legality with morality, with God's law. And Exodus 21 shows us that the child in the womb gives us case law if there's any violence done to a pregnant woman so that her child is ejected from the womb early.

If there's any harm to that child, their legal rights are the same as every man, woman, and child outside the womb.

If any harm is done, if no harm is done, there's still a fine for the man who is reckless enough to risk their lives.

But if any harm comes to them, it's to be inflicted on the person who caused it, even to the forfeiting of their life.

And that shows us that according to God's law, that child in the womb is just as human as you and I.

They have all the same legal protections as you and I, and there is no justification for taking their life.

So I point to Exodus 21. We talk about Proverbs 24 and how it says to rescue those who are, you know, stumbling to death, staggering to the slaughter, and how we're supposed to hold them back.

And it's our responsibility as a church to do that, because it's commanded by God.

And it's everyone's responsibility to realize that if they say, oh, we didn't know, doesn't

God who, you know, judges the heart, doesn't He see these things, doesn't He perceive it, and will He not judge, you know, each one according to their deeds?

So, you know, we bring up the law of God, and we bring up the mercy of God, that, you know,

God, if no one was here, you would still be responsible. You know, you're an image bearer of God, you know that there's such a thing as right and wrong, you have a

God -given conscience, and so you understand these things. But I say, how much more has

God shown His mercy to send His church to not only tell you the truth that you're trying to suppress, but then to offer you that rescue plan, that lifeline.

You know, we hope that there are some women who go, and they're struggling with that decision. And so, you say, have you prayed about it, have you asked

God for a sign? Well, here it is. God is revealing Himself to you, He's calling out to you.

So we use a number of scriptures, you know, we talk about the gospel, we talk about Christ coming, and God taking on flesh, coming as a baby, you know, to this world.

And if God, who wouldn't withhold His Son, you know, He wouldn't withhold anything that we need to deliver us.

And so we really run the gamut in terms of sharing scripture, and just showing how they are without excuse, and they don't have to do this.

So that's generally our approach, is to share as much as possible as they're going, you know, from the car door to the abortion mill door, saying, hey, don't do this, hey, come and talk to us, hey, we can help, and telling them all the things that we'll provide them with.

You know, we'll throw them a baby shower, we'll walk alongside them. If their family is going to reject them, or their father, the child is going to reject them, we'll take them in.

We have people who are willing to do that. So we attempt every means possible to let them know that we care about them, we love them, you know, and we're willing to do whatever it takes.

We're not just out there to protest and just say we don't like abortion. We're willing to be like the Good Samaritan who, they might have been enemies that they'd seen each other on the street normally, but here sees this person in need and stops his everything, you know, to provide medical care, provide transportation, provide lodging, hospitality, do all these things for someone who probably would hate their guts normally.

But we want to show them that we love them, and that we're here out of love for them. So that's our approach in a nutshell.

Great. And by the way, Chris, whatever you're doing in regard to your voice, keep doing it that way, because earlier on your voice was a lot more tinny and had a little feedback issue, but you seem to have cleared up a lot, and you sound more crisp and clear at this point.

Oh, very good. Okay, sorry about that. No, that's all right. These are just technical things, especially since this is the first time you've been on my show.

We are going to our first break right now, and I hope that you take this time to write down questions for our guests,

Reginald T. Smith and Chris McDowell. Hello, my name is

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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I'm so delighted my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019 where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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And he is home now recovering, but he still needs your prayers because it is at least a six -week recovery process that they expect for him to reach the point where he is back to, as they say, normal.

So right now, in fact, I just had a phone conversation with him earlier today and he had to keep it very brief because he was utterly exhausted just speaking with me on the phone.

But then again, most of my completely healthy friends use that as an excuse to cut phone calls short with me. But anyway, keep that prayer request going for Mike Gadosh of Solid Ground Christian Books and we will keep you updated as to his recovery.

And we also obviously thank him for sponsoring Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and his sponsorship is invaluable to us.

And as we love to hear from him, our program seems to be invaluable to Solid Ground Christian Books because he is getting a lot of business from you, the listeners, and I thank you for that.

But we are now back to our discussion with our guests today, Reginald T.

Smith and Chris McDowell. We are speaking about making abortion mill evangelism a grassroots ministry for volunteers in the local church.

If you have questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Perhaps you've even contemplated having an abortion.

Perhaps you've had an abortion or more than one abortion. Perhaps you have someone very close to you who is either considering it or has had an abortion.

All of those things obviously would give someone perhaps the desire to remain anonymous.

So if it's something personal and private like that, please feel free to remain anonymous. Other than that though, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

We do have a listener in Alberta, Canada, whose name is Jake, and he asked a question that you guys have already kind of stole his thunder because what he asked you've already answered, but he also involves things in his question that perhaps you could add to your commentary.

He says, I'd be curious to know what circumstances motivated you two to do this work and what resources you would recommend for me for starters.

I guess mainly to get greater convictions in that area. I know for us and Canada it is a different story since we're not allowed to get close to an abortion mill when speaking on the issue.

So that's interesting. So you do have some things that you didn't really discuss yet that involve your legal rights as Christians as to how close you can get to an abortion mill and the details involving that.

And this may differ from state to state, might even differ from city to city, but respond to Jake's question from Alberta, Canada.

Sure gladly. One thing Chris, Reginald is a very legal name, but it is not my name.

It's Gerald. But I thank you because I think

I'm going to call him Reginald from now on. And he will. And he will. You know, all the years

I've known you, I always called you Jerry, and I don't even know how Reginald got into my mind with you.

That's okay. It's not a problem. All right. In answer to the question, as far as resources, and I know this isn't totally what he's asking, but there are a lot of good books written on the subject of abortion, and two that I would like to recommend, if I can.

One is The Case for Life by Scott Klusendorf, and the other is

Abortion, a Rational Look at an Emotional Issue by R .C. Sproul. Both of these books offered a whole lot of both biblical and practical information on this topic.

So I would encourage your listener and your listeners that those would be two books that they did a great deal for me in understanding not just the aspect of abortion and the sanctity of life, but also it offered a lot of information on the apologetic and how to argue the case for life.

Excellent, excellent text. And by the way, people can also look up on the Iron Trip and Zion Radio archive

Scott Klusendorf's interview that I conducted with him. If you type into the search engine

K -L -U -S -E -N -D -O -R -F, that's

F as in Frank, you will get the link for that interview with Scott Klusendorf. And it just dawned on me why

I think I unconsciously came up with Reginald, is that your email is

Sir Gerald, I think, right? Sir Gerald Smith, and for some reason

I translated that in my head to Reginald because Sir Reginald sounds more of a connection than Sir Gerald.

There's a long story behind that. When you hear that story about when my dad used to call me

Sir Gerald. So we'll leave it at that. And well, in addition to the resources, tell us unlike Canada, I mean our listener

Jake says that they can't even go near, and I don't know what he means by near, but he said that they can't go near an abortion mill in Canada if they have the intention to protest in any way what's going on.

What are the parameters on Long Island, at least perhaps more specifically in your area, in Medford, Quorum area, and also are you aware of any differences amongst the states and cities of the

United States? Indeed, they are different and I couldn't specifically tell you the differences.

One of the things that we do on a regular basis, I actually have my email set up to do, is

I am connected and I'm looking for it now. I think it's called

E360 or something of that nature. And what it is, it's a website that provides the various standards for the areas and the regulations for the areas that you might be in.

And we make a point of, I do, carrying them with me because we have had police officers come and have difference with perhaps the way we're presenting ourselves and stuff like that.

There are certain decibel limits that we have to meet, and as Chris suggested earlier, at certain times that we have to not use amplification.

We stay on public property, we don't, obviously we can't go on private property.

That's one of the situations that makes it difficult for us because as I had suggested earlier, the cars pull in and they go behind to park.

So we have to get them, as Chris said, we have to get them as they're coming in. But what

I would recommend to anyone listening is find out what the regulations and rules are for your specific area because they all differ slightly.

And it's important that we do our best not to cause issue in that way.

Yeah, I would like to add to that. In addition to the books that Jerry mentioned, he mentioned a couple of movies also previously.

You can go to Babies Are Murdered Here. It's also a free movie on YouTube. I know

Jeff has mentioned that. Jerry referenced the 180 movie, which was out of Ray Comfort's ministry, and that's probably also available on YouTube, I would assume.

I know people hand them out. You can also use EndAbortionNow .com,

which is a ministry of apology at church in Arizona. And what they do is they seek to equip local churches, you know, provide training, videos for training, what they're doing.

They'll also provide like a packet, you know, signs and maybe tracks and stuff like that.

And if you go to YouTube and you put in, you know, abortion ministry, you're going to see a wide range of videos and some approaches we would recommend and some approaches we would not.

I don't know, again, you know, what his laws are in Canada as far as how far away you must be from an abortion mill in order to try to minister.

For us, it's just a matter of being on public land. For using amplification, we look to the local town codes.

Something we had, we haven't followed through on enough. We have a website, but we haven't really got it up and running.

To put it in for your local area so that you can minister to people if they are looking up abortion, you know, maybe you could put it as an addition to your church's website or something, or you have your own website for abortions in that area.

Because if people are looking up, you know, an abortion clinic in your area in Alberta, Canada, maybe if they put in those keywords, your website would pop up and you could offer help and assistance if they would contact you, you know, and we recommend working as much as you can with your local church.

I mean, we do this as a Ministry of Hope and Form Baptist Church, and, you know, so our church is fully behind us.

They help provide us with the resources. They pray for us, you know, and that's all vital. A friend of mine had suggested putting up...

Some people go to the schools if they're allowed to when they minister outside schools, because you often have teenagers, whether it be in high school or college, and that's a huge client base for Planned Parenthood.

They like to put their clinics in those areas, so you can try to be out there and have a table set up and have information, not only for the

Gospel and outreach in that way for evangelism, but also regarding abortion, regarding facts, regarding assistance.

A friend of mine suggested, you know, putting up signs in areas that might be hard pressed, so that they could get your contact information, you know, so you're considering abortion, call this number.

So there's a number of different paths you can take if you're trying to reach people and you're limited at the actual abortion mill, to try to reach people who might be thinking about it and get them before they're showing up there, because,

I mean, everywhere is different. Like, I'm very encouraged that there are some ministries where people can get very close, and maybe the society, the culture...

New York culture is very tough, you know. We've seen people leave and we've had people thank us, but we haven't had the privilege yet of establishing a relationship with any of those women, where I know, like,

Jeff Church, they have people who are now members of Apologia, you know, and some of them, they've developed relationships, you know,

John Barros down in Orlando, he still has relationships and he has pictures of babies who were saved and all that.

So it varies. For us, we haven't had quite the same experience, but we have seen people leave.

So whatever God gives you to work with, and work with it, you know.

I think for us, it was realizing just to get out there and start doing something, you know, whatever you can do, explore your options and then do it.

Well, we have to... Chris? Yes, go ahead. I was just going to say, the other website that I'd recommend that's tied in with Jeff Durbin is

Red Door Ministries, and that's reddoorministries .com. They have a lot of abortion information.

Is that ministry singular or ministries plural? Ministry singular.

Reddoorministry .com? Slash home.

Reddoorministry .com slash home. Right.

R -E -D -D -O -O -R -M -I -N -I -S -T -R -Y dot com slash home.

Okay, great. We have to go to our midway break right now. This is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice daily, and morning drive, and in the evening as well, they require this longer break because they air their own commercials and public service announcements during that period in order to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. I almost said Jacksonville because I just came back from there, to Lake City, Florida.

So please take this time not only to write more questions for our guests today,

Jerry T. Smith and Chris McDowell. Paul from Red Note.

That's a wonderful name. But also use this time...

By the way, Jerry, you're not the first person who I've completely messed up introducing, even when

I've known the person for decades. I've done this before. But anyway... Oh, I know.

I listened to your program a lot. But also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them, because we rely upon them sticking around and helping to pay our bills, and they are more likely to stick around if you patronize them.

So if you want to send in a question, do so now at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous, if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jerry T. Smith and Chris McDowell. Get world now .com

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I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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Before we return to Jerry T. Smith and Chris McDowell on our discussion on turning abortion evangelism into a grassroots ministry in the local church,

I just have a couple of announcements to make. Coming up on November 9th and 10th,

I will be manning an exhibitor's booth once again at the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology to be held at the

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include

David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn. That's November 9th and the 10th at the

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click on events, then scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. And then coming up in January, from the 17th of January, which is a

Thursday, through the 19th of January, which is a Saturday, the G3 Conference returns to the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. The theme is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of and they are also having, for those of you listening who have

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But the English -speaking conference includes such speakers as Dr. James R.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And we are now back with our guest today

Jerry T. Smith and Chris McDowell, both deacons and leaders of the pro -life ministry at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and they are discussing making abortion male evangelism a grassroots ministry for volunteers in the local church.

And if you'd like to join us our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We have

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who asks, can your guests describe some of the reactions to your evangelism at abortion mills and have any of them gone from being nasty and horrified to being more kind and respectful and even who have reversed their decisions due to what you have said?

Yes, Chris, you want to take that or you want me to jump in? I'll be happy to. We have, like I said, we've got a number of different reactions.

Some people are coming in and there's guilt all over their face. Some of them are crying already. Some people are hostile, some are mocking, all different reactions.

We've had people at the first location, there's a gas station next door, sometimes people will like walk up the driveway and go over that gas station.

We try to engage them in conversation. They're waiting outside, they're smoking a cigarette, and we've engaged them in conversation.

And, you know, sometimes it's, oh, you know, I don't really support this, but I support the person.

And so we try to tell them the truth. We talked to a young father who tried to go and convince his girlfriend to come out and she basically took his phone and threw it.

We've had people stop by, like who were driving by, and actually pull off and come and talk to us.

And some were threatening violence at first, because there's a neighborhood not too far from where we're preaching.

And it's early in the hospital. And I remember one man had a, he said, you know, he was scaring his daughter, and she was upset.

There's been times where we go out there, you know, I brought my children out, and they range in ages from 11 to 18.

And we've been doing it for a few years. So at first, I, you know, I was bringing my eight year old out.

And they, I'm like, listen, I know it's terrible. But this is the reality of what's going on here.

And one man, you know, in having conversation, he went from being hostile and aggressive to being much more docile and understanding, you know, where we were coming from and what we were doing.

We had another man who was, you know, early in the morning, I think he was intoxicated somehow. And he was the only physical interaction we had where he actually ended up pushing me at one point, but then eventually left.

So in the conversations, we've had some people who are hostile and they've been placated and they understand when we've had a chance to discuss it with them.

We've had interactions with moms and dads and other family and friends.

Some people change their mind. Like I said, we've seen some people leave, some people never even got in the door.

You know, they were in there, they saw the signs, they heard us talking. And they left. I mean, we've had people thank us on their way out.

So does that cover? Does that cover that or? Yeah. I would,

I would actually even answer that. Not only are the people going in affected by this ministry, but the people driving by both positively reacting and negatively reacting because of the signs.

I mean, the message is definitely being seen by cars passing by as well. But we've had some good

Samaritans that have even brought us donuts and coffee. Often and basically told us to keep doing what we're doing.

But then of course, we do get a number of them that let's just say have a rather negative response.

Now, I know that the Lord has used Jeff Durbin's ministry at Apologia Church in Tepe, Arizona.

He has used their abortion and evangelism efforts to save hundreds of babies from being murdered in their mother's womb.

And I know that you haven't been doing it as long as he has. And I think that you might even have more restrictions as to how close you could be to an abortion mill, if I'm not mistaken, there in the

Suffolk County area. But tell us about that, about your track record. And of course, on top of that, give some words of encouragement to those involved in this kind of ministry who might be discouraged that they are not every day getting people over and over and over again to reverse their decisions and walk away without having their child killed.

There might be people who, even just like they do with general evangelism, they may get discouraged easy if they don't see fruit being immediately born out of it.

So tell us about that. I would say, well,

I was going to answer too with the discouragement aspect. One of the things that I often share with our team and myself is that we don't know where our words are going to stop.

We don't know the seeds that are being planted. We don't know the hearts that are being changed.

Even perhaps even after an abortion has been committed. But we have to remind ourselves that we're called to be people that love the

Lord our God with all our hearts, soul, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves. So by going out there, we're seeking to do that.

And the other thing is that, like I said before, just being out there, we're visible.

And hopefully we're having a positive effect on all those that see us.

But ultimately it's up to the Lord. The Lord is the one that's going to change hearts. The Lord is the one that's going to soften hearts and turn hearts to Himself and to save souls and lives.

If I was to encourage anybody involved in this ministry, it's just keep doing what you're doing.

Don't weary in doing what you know is good, what you know is right. And the other thing

I would add, although it's a little off subject, we would be glad to come to your churches.

And whether it be for a Sunday school, whether it would be for a prayer meeting or after prayer meeting, any time, we would be glad and share with you the things that we've learned.

We have PowerPoints we can go through. Whatever it takes, if you're at all thinking about starting a grassroots movement or if you're at all discouraged, we'll be glad to come.

And if I could just plug, we're going to have a table, a pro -life table, at the upcoming

Upstream Faith Conference that my dear brother and pal

Anthony Uvinio is putting out through his organization.

If Anthony Uvinio is involved, I want nothing to do with it. I'm just kidding. Anthony's a good friend and he's also a very valued sponsor and supporter financially of Honor Trip and Zion Radio, so that was just a joke.

Amen, amen. So we're going to be there on September 29th and it's at 440

Furrow Road in Holbrook. And it's the Upstream Faith Conference. We'll have a table there.

You want to come and talk with us, we would be glad to do whatever we can to get you started and to encourage you.

Chris, hop in. Yeah, I mean, it can be a very discouraging ministry.

I mean, it's heartbreaking to see the parking lot filling up and, you know, just this past week, two weeks ago was

Labor Day and the first location was closed because he's a single practitioner and so he takes a little more holidays in Planned Parenthood.

Planned Parenthood would be open on Christmas Day, I think, if they could get people in there because they're open almost all the time.

But this first location is occasionally closed for holidays. But we see that the week after the parking lot is packed, you know, he's got even more people in there because of having skipped a week.

And it's heartbreaking. And I've seen people go in there with car seats. I saw early on a woman was bringing a friend or bringing a small child in there.

I'm like, how can you see that precious child that wanted to destroy another one? And most of the time, the things that really break my heart is those conversations where I actually talk to someone at any sort of length, and they still go in.

And it's just heartbreaking is hardly the word for it. It really is terrible.

But when you see a mother leave, when you see parents decide to keep their baby, there's nothing like that.

And that will help me to last for months and months, you know, knowing that we saw a child spared because of the grace of God and using the means of the local church, the local body of Christ to represent

Christ and to shine a light in this very dark corner of our country. You know, and as my brother said, we're called to be faithful.

God doesn't call us to success. You know, he tells us not to worry, not to despise the day of small beginnings.

We never know how many lives are being affected by being out there faithfully.

We're in an area that's both commercial and residential. I mean, there's businesses, there's major roadways, but there's also neighborhoods within earshot.

And they're hearing the gospel, you know, and that's our job is our job is to go out and to sow seeds and to share the gospel and preach it to all creation.

So recognize that you're being faithful to the commands of Scripture, that you're obeying your

Lord and Savior. And as the Scripture tells us, my brother, share it. Don't grow weary in doing good.

You know, there'll be times where you'll see fruit, and we pray for that. We pray for us in our ministry that we would see fruit from our labors, and we pray for our brothers and sisters across the country who are engaged in light ministry, that they would see fruit and that they would not grow weary, because it is difficult at times.

But God calls us to it, and he will honor it, and he'll be honored by us being faithful to him.

Praise God. And by the way, do I hear Mr. Softy? I thought I heard... Yeah. I had to stop and get a cone.

I hope you don't mind. I just wanted to, before I forget, since Anthony Vigneault actually is a very valuable supporter of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I want to make sure that I give the website for New York Apologetics so that they can find out more about that Upstream Faith Conference.

It's NewYorkApologetics .com, NewYorkApologetics .com, and do not abbreviate the words

New York. They are spelled out N -E -W -Y -O -R -K, Apologetics .com. And Jerry, you sent me a website for GeneralCode .com

forward slash resources forward slash ENCODE360. What exactly did you send that to me for?

Yeah, that is the website I was looking for before. That's the site that we use to find out all the codes in the areas, whether we're out on the streets evangelizing or whether we're at the abortion mills or whatever.

Whatever we're doing, that gives you... you can get all the codes you need for your given towns, and I believe it pretty much covers the

United States. You're talking about the legal codes for what is allowed when it comes to opposing abortion near an abortion clinic, or as we would call them, abortion mills.

Yes, or wherever. Right. And I believe this might have

Canada as well. Now, when you say wherever, what do you mean by wherever? Wherever...

the legal codes for... is it specifically about abortion only, this website?

No, no. This is the legal code regarding speaking in public.

Oh, just public speaking? Volume of your... Oh, okay. Yes. It's all the codes, but that's included in it.

I see. Let's see. You have to do some homework. And this is a question

I asked earlier that a listener has. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and I don't know if you ever answered it specifically.

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wanted to know how many babies that you are aware of were rescued from being murdered as a result of your ministry.

Do you know of women that said right there on the spot, you are right,

I'm not doing this, or things like that? We've had a handful.

I don't know if... We definitely have that happen, but I don't know what number. Do you,

Chris? I don't. Well, I'll... We have talked to people who are leaving, who are not going through with it.

I just... I couldn't give you a number, though. Right. Well, as we said, you or none of us can ever know the impact totally that is...

Exactly. ...is happening. Like, for instance, I meet people everywhere I go who listen to this radio program, Iron Trip and Zion Radio, because it's globally live -streamed.

Even when I was in Jacksonville, Florida, it seems that everywhere I go, people are approaching me, between a handful or many people, depending upon the size of the venue, telling me, oh,

I listen to your show all the time, thank you. So we don't even know, when we do things like this, how God is using what we're doing.

Right. Correct. Well, this is going to be the final commercial break that we are going to take now.

If anybody would like to send in a question, do so now or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address, once again, is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jerry Smith and Chris McDonald and more of our subject,

Turning Abortion Mill Evangelism Into Grassroots Ministry for the

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Chris Arnzen. We are now entering into our final segment of the interview that we are conducting today with Jerry Smith and Chris McDowell on the issue of turning abortion mill evangelism into a grassroots ministry for the local church.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

And Ronald asks, do you have any advice as to what not to say and do at an abortion clinic when you are involved in evangelism?

So the key word is not. Yeah, I think the key there, as you're saying not, uh, we're there to share our faith, to share our

God, to share our love for him and to plead with those going in to commit this awful crime.

What not to say, not to say anything in anger, not to say anything with venom.

But remember that we're called to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

And that's why we're there. We're there to plead with these people, these mothers to not murder their children.

And it's very hard not to get angry, not to get frustrated, not to be appalled at what you see, but there by the grace of God go

I. And I have to always remind myself of that. Yes, we who are

Christians, and of course that would, I would also include those who profess to be

Christians, because not everybody who professes to be Christian is one. And I would include in that latter group, the

God hates fags folks at Westboro Baptist Church. I do not believe that these people are regenerate because they delight in the destruction of the wicked.

They have no message of hope for homosexuals or others they oppose.

They don't preach the gospel to them. They just shout with joy that they are going to hell if they don't repent.

Of course the God hates fags group doesn't even believe they can repent, even that God, they don't even believe that God will ever enact upon them through his transforming power a desire to repent.

They just believe that they are doomed and that nothing can change that. But we tend to sometimes think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

And we should not be so haughty as to think that we would never have done such a thing as encouraging or having an abortion apart from the

Holy Spirit transforming our hearts. Am I right on that? Amen. Amen.

Chris? Yes, go ahead. So one thing that I would just encourage, whatever churches might be listening, because we're talking about starting grassroots or encouraging the continuing of these ministries, these topics need to be brought up in the church.

They can't be had a blind eye turned to. They need to be spoken about. They need to be shared in Sunday school.

They need to be shared in Bible studies. They need to be shared from the pulpit. The fact of the matter is this is an ugly topic, but it needs to be spoken about, and we need to take action.

Well, that's interesting. The Bible has something to say about it. Go ahead. Is that Chris wants to say something?

Yes. Go ahead. I was just going to say, you know, it is a gospel issue.

It falls under the purview of the whole counsel of God. And so to turn a blind eye to it, to try to forget about that it's going on, we sometimes get so fixated on an individual's right to choose and their free will and stuff, we forget that God judges nations, and He judges them temporally.

And so loving our neighbor means speaking the truth to them in love. And so we need to be equipping the body of Christ to understand these are areas that the gospel has something to say, and we need to go about and do it.

And some people are so reluctant to do so that they end up being disobedient.

You know, when we talk about things not to say, I mean, I sometimes push it, like, you know, people really need to be out here. They need to really be doing that.

And I don't want to get too off topic, but as we start to run out of time, just realizing that there's so much more the

Church ought to be doing. And we sometimes make too much of an idol out of our comfort, our leisure, and we're so reluctant to come across as unloving that we're not out there doing

Kingdom work, that we're not out there taking the gospel to everyone who needs it at the time that they need it the most.

So we really need to share these things, and we need to find how God is gifted. Some people say, oh,

I'm not gifted in that area, I can't do it. I think they don't even try, you know. I never thought

I had any sort of ability to minister outside of these things. I'd never open air preached prior to doing that.

I was just going to go out and hold a sign in the neck of my hand, or I'm calling out, saying, you don't have to do this, or we can help.

And that evolved into sharing the gospel and actually preaching. I think we'd be surprised at what

God has gifted us for if we make an effort in that direction. So it might be abortion for some people, it might be working with the homeless for others, it might be that the

Church has this obligation for hospitality, to be willing to open up their homes and to share what they have, to show the love of Christ in real and tangible ways.

And I think we really need to think more about what can we do to serve God aside from just volunteering for a children's ministry.

I mean, that's a nice thing, but I feel like too many of our churches focus on just one or two ministries and it's usually in -house and they're forgetting about their obligation to those who are lost and perishing.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, I know that there is disagreement amongst even like -minded brethren that Chris has had on his show as guests over the issue of the church's role in protesting against abortion publicly.

I know that some, on one hand, like John MacArthur and Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, believe that individuals should be out there doing what they can do to save the lives of unborn children, but that churches should not be officially involved in this, especially pastors, because it is not the role of a pastor to be involved in this.

And then others, like Gary DeMar of American Vision, would be on the polar opposite side saying that churches and pastors should all be right there in the streets involved in this kind of a thing.

What is your opinion about the differences here? I would say that the first thing

I would say is,

I don't view it as protesting, because we're not there to judge them.

We're there to help them. We're there to reach out to them. We're there to plead with them.

We care about their souls. We care about the life of their child that they're carrying.

We're not there to protest abortion as such. Yes, is it a sin?

Yes, is it wrong? Yes, it is. But we're there to do whatever it takes, and I think we've pretty much said that.

Chris, you want to jump in? Just that it is the Church's responsibility. We have to...

we need each other, because it is a discouraging ministry. We need the prayers of the saints. We need the more bodies out there, the better.

I think it's a strong statement when you see a load of people. I mean, I've heard in Arizona, like, the first protest for lack of a better word, the demonstration of the

Church is showing up en masse, closed down Planned Parenthood for a day. It speaks volumes to society, and it's showing the world that Christ reigns.

And He has something to say to even the unbelievers. I mean, nations are judged according to God's law.

People say, oh, well, God's law in the Old Testament was only for Israel. But it's not, because He said, on account of these things,

I'm throwing out the Amorites. I'm purging the land of them. So even unbelieving nations are judged according to God's standard.

So we have to realize that God has something to say to the pagans. And He says in His law that even the

Gentiles, those pagan nations, are going to see your laws and see the wisdom of them. So we have something to share with an unbelieving world.

We have to point to God's standard and say, on account of these things, God will judge a nation. Egypt was judged, and they lost their firstborn for what they did to Israel and how they were destroying their firstborn.

And if we think that we can continue to kill our children and not experience repercussions, we only need to look at our nation and look at, you know,

God judges the nations by natural disasters. He judges nations by raising up enemies from without and within.

And that's not just His people, that's all people, and we need to use that to speak to our world.

So it's absolutely a responsibility of the church, and we need each other to work together to provide the resources to provide for those who are in need.

And we are out of time, and I know that the website for Hope Reformed Baptist Church is hopereformedli .net.

I want to thank you, too, for being on the program, and I want to thank everybody who wrote in. I also want to remind our listeners that the

IRBS Theological Seminary is having their inauguration live tonight, their inauguration convocation.

You can watch it live -streamed at irbsseminary .org, irbsseminary .org.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.