Where Does Mark Driscoll Land Regarding Calvinism?

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October 12, 2022

There was a time in recent memory where Mark Driscoll was a cultural touchstone in the young restless and reformed community. But now he is distancing himself from Calvinism. In this episode of Conversations with a Calvinist, we review a sermon he gave on Romans 9 and consider just how far he is from the Calvinism he now says is garbage and unbiblical. Conversations with a Calvinist is the podcast ministry of Pastor Keith Foskey. If you want to learn more about Pastor Keith and his ministry at Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, FL, visit www.SGFCjax.org. For older episodes of Conversations with a Calvinist, visit CalvinistPodcast.com To get the audio version of the podcast through Spotify, Apple, or other platforms, visit https://anchor.fm/medford-foskey Follow Pastor Keith on Twitter @YourCalvinist Email questions about the program to [email protected]

00:00: Though no longer a cultural touchstone in the Reformed community, Mark Driscoll is still making the rounds on the Internet.
00:06: And today, Uncle Rich and I are going to be looking at a sermon he preached about a year ago on the subject of predestination.
00:12: This is Conversations with a Calvinist, and it begins right now.
00:35: Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:37: My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.
00:40: And joining me again is one of the crew, one of the CWAC regulars, Uncle Rich the Muffin Man.
00:45: Good to see you today, my friend.
00:47: Good to see you, Beau.
00:48: All right.
00:49: Glad you're here.
00:49: Always enjoy coming to the studio with you.
00:51: And I want to thank you this week because you are not only coming in to do a podcast with me, but you're also going to be helping me set up for this year's annual 10-day event at the Callahan Fair.
01:01: If you're going to be at the fair, come and see us at the Sovereign Grace Family Church booth where we will be handing out gospel tracts, wristbands, and candy to the kids as they walk by, telling everybody about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:13: Looking forward to 10 days of evangelism and ministry at the Callahan Fair.
01:18: Well, today we're going to be talking about a man who is, as I said, no longer a cultural touchstone in the Reformed community, but was at one time at least considered to be someone that was part of the movement of what some people call New Calvinism or the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement.
01:41: He was the founder of the Acts 29 Network, or one of the founders of the Acts 29 Network, which was a church planting network, many of those churches being at least quasi-Reformed in their theology.
01:53: And the man's name is Mark Driscoll.
01:54: Mark Driscoll is an American evangelical pastor.
01:56: He founded Mars Hill Church in Seattle until later he was removed over some controversial issues, and he is now the senior and founding pastor at Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona, which he founded back in 2016.
02:12: As I said, in 1998, he and David Nicholas founded the Acts 29 Network, and he also was the subject of a recent, very popular podcast that came out that was entitled The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
02:28: Did you hear The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill? I did not.
02:31: This was put out by Christianity Today.
02:33: It was a long-form journalism.
02:36: I listened to it.
02:37: It was hour-long shows, and it went on for weeks at a time, telling the story of how he rose to popularity, and then ultimately how the church began to experience problems, and then ultimately how he was, I guess you would say, defrocked.
02:57: The story is long and convoluted.
02:59: If you want to hear that story, I do recommend listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, but I want to add this caveat.
03:07: The people who put together The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, having listened to it, I really feel like they had their own agenda, and at a certain point in that particular podcast, they began to bring in women pastors, and they began to – and I say women pastors.
03:21: I don't believe that women are legitimate pastors, but women who call themselves pastors, and many of them began to challenge Mark Driscoll on his masculinity and how he was – all of these different things, and there was a lot in that.
03:35: Again, I'll leave it to the listener to decide if you want to go and hear what all they had to say.
03:39: I didn't agree with everything they said.
03:40: I did agree with some of it, but obviously when the women pastors started to come in, I felt like it really took a hard turn that I wasn't real comfortable with.
03:52: Like I said, if you're interested in Driscoll's history, you can go there.
03:57: Another thing that Driscoll did a few years ago is he came out opposing Calvinism.
04:02: He did this on a podcast where he says Calvinism is garbage and that all five points of Calvinism are unbiblical.
04:11: Now in that podcast, or if you want to listen to that podcast, you can find it.
04:16: Just look up Mark Driscoll, Calvinism is Garbage.
04:19: But if you want to hear a review of that, I want to recommend Chris Williams, KW True on YouTube.
04:26: He's a friend of the show.
04:27: He's been on this show before.
04:29: Chris Williams' podcast, he actually a couple years ago, he did a review of that podcast where he listened to what he had to say because again, when he says Calvinism is garbage, that sends up red flags in the reform community.
04:42: What is he saying? Especially a guy who seemingly once espoused it and now is saying that it's garbage.
04:49: And what was interesting in that particular conversation, as I listened to it, I listened to Chris's review of it, and in that conversation he actually did say, he said, I used to be in the reform community and now I find myself more in the charismatic community.
05:08: So that's words that came out of his own mouth.
05:09: That's not me putting words in his mouth.
05:11: He said, I used to be this and now I'm this, and I used to be a Calvinist.
05:15: But then he said, right, the very next thing out of his mouth, but my theology has never changed.
05:20: He said, my theology has always been the same, but I used to be in the Calvinism camp.
05:23: Now I'm in the charismatic camp.
05:24: And I do know that there are those who would call themselves Calvinist and charismatic.
05:28: So I guess it's possible to be both.
05:30: Guys like Wayne Grudem would say that they're continuationists and Calvinist.
05:38: But saying that he's never changed is, I think, is a little disingenuous.
05:43: There are some things that seem to have changed, but again, I don't know him super well.
05:47: I do know that when he, when the things happened at Mars Hill, one of the things that I remember seeing is a picture with him and Stephen Furtick.
05:57: So Stephen Furtick, we know, has a long history of being fairly dismissed by the Reformed community as somebody whose teaching is not very deep and not very solid.
06:08: In fact, there are some videos out there that would almost speak to the fact that he actually preaches heretical things.
06:16: So having said all that, that's the community that now Driscoll is sort of aligning himself with.
06:24: And I'm sure you and I both have opinions on him as a person, as a pastor, but that's not what we're here to talk about today.
06:33: I'm just, I'm giving you all this as a setup.
06:35: What we're going to do today is we want to actually review a recent, well I say recent, it's a year old, but we want to review a sermon on the subject of predestination, which was given by Driscoll at his now church, the Trinity Church in Scottsdale.
06:53: And we have several clips from this sermon that we're going to play.
06:57: We're going to talk about each of these clips and why we think it matters.
07:01: We can't listen to the whole sermon.
07:02: The whole sermon is too long for us to listen to the whole thing.
07:06: But we have eight different clips that we're going to look at.
07:09: Again, and I want to say this, and I think you would agree, I know I'm doing all the talking now, you're going to jump in soon, you've got to get close to that microphone if you're going to talk there, is this is not an overall criticism.
07:22: I'm not going to say everything he says is wrong.
07:24: In fact, I do think he says some right things in this sermon.
07:27: I think he says some very true things in this sermon.
07:30: But there are other things that kind of caused my ears to go, hmm, I would nuance that different, or I would say that different, or you're not being totally genuine to the positions that you're talking about.
07:47: So the first thing that got our attention, this is what caused, Rich was the one who recommended this, so Uncle Rich, thank you for that.
07:55: The thing that got our attention was when he gives the first illustration of the sermon.
08:03: It's an illustration about his wife.
08:05: So this is where we're going to begin.
08:06: We're going to start out by listening to this opening illustration.
08:09: This is him opening a sermon on Romans 9 and the subject of predestination.
08:16: All right, if you've got a Bible, go to Romans 9.
08:20: We're studying the book of Romans for a very long time.
08:23: This is going to be a great sermon.
08:25: You're going to enjoy this.
08:26: This is going to be four or five of the greatest hours of your life.
08:29: So if you've got a Bible, go to Romans 9, and we're looking at our relationship with God and how does it start and when does it start and who is the one who starts it.
08:40: I'll start with the story.
08:41: So this was a big week for us.
08:43: It was 33 years ago this week that I took my now wife, Grace, on our very first date, 33 years ago.
08:53: So how did we enter into relationship? Well, thank you for asking.
08:57: So the way it worked was this.
08:58: I knew about Grace before she knew about me.
09:01: I liked Grace before she liked me.
09:04: I had a heart that was open toward Grace before her heart was open toward me.
09:08: So what did I do? I architected circumstances so that I could predestine her.
09:15: That was what I was doing.
09:17: I wanted her to respond to my love by loving me and her respond to my pursuit by pursuing me.
09:23: So I set everything up so that I could enter into this hopeful, loving relationship with Grace.
09:30: We were 17 years of age in high school at the time.
09:32: So first date was very, very nervous and picked her up and took her out to Red Robin because I'm fancy.
09:39: And we were 17.
09:40: So I was like, all the fries you want to eat are on me.
09:42: So we had Red Robin.
09:44: And then we got to know each other a little bit, but I already knew what my heart was toward her.
09:51: And I needed her to get to know me.
09:54: And then her heart opened toward me.
09:56: And we got to know each other.
09:58: And over the course of a few weeks, I then bought her a jewelry box.
10:01: Again, we're 17 years of age in high school.
10:03: She's like, what's that for? I said, that's for the engagement ring.
10:06: When I proposed to you and you accept my agreement to be my wife.
10:11: So that's either a stalker or a guy who knows what he wants or both.
10:17: And so you just don't know.
10:18: So you give it a little time.
10:20: So what I wanted to do was I wanted to have a relationship with her.
10:25: And I had a destiny that I was working toward for this loving relationship.
10:30: Let me use that as a simple analogy.
10:33: That's how God has a relationship with us.
10:34: The Bible says that Jesus is like a groom.
10:37: The church, his people are like a beloved bride.
10:40: And so far as this relationship goes, Jesus initiates, we respond.
10:45: Jesus pursues and then we respond.
10:48: Jesus loves and we respond that he is the leader and we are the follower.
10:52: And this is how we enter into relationship with God.
10:55: Theologically, theos means God and logos means study.
10:59: So the study of God.
11:00: Theologically, the category this is under is something called predestination.
11:05: That's what we find in Romans 9 and 10.
11:07: That's the big idea that God has a destiny that is predetermined and he is pursuing that destiny for you and that relationship with you.
11:18: All right, so right away, that was a lot.
11:21: And just so you know, listener, if you're listening to this, I'm playing extended clips because I want you to get an idea of this sermon.
11:28: I don't wanna just play 30 seconds or something or five seconds or something.
11:31: There are gonna be a few times where I do play some short stuff.
11:34: But in general, again, not trying to bash.
11:37: All the things we might think about Mark Driscoll, I wanna deal with what he's saying.
11:41: And right away, this was what caused you to call me and say, hey, we gotta review this.
11:47: So tell me what it was that viscerally caused you hearing that illustration to say, we gotta deal with this.
11:54: Well, the analogy immediately breaks down in the sense of, okay, he's saying that he predestined his wife to be his wife because he was pursuing her and he was trying to cause her to wanna have a relationship with him.
12:15: Okay, that breaks down immediately in a sense of, one, and he'll affirm this later in the sermon, Romans three, that we don't have the ability to choose God.
12:24: So she had the ability to say yes or say no to Mark Driscoll.
12:29: We don't have the ability.
12:31: He was not irresistible.
12:32: Right, we don't have the ability in our sinful state and nature to even come close to thinking about choosing God until he opens our eyes of faith, regenerates us to where we can then by faith repent and believe.
12:47: That's why he had to predestine those who he would save because had he not chosen us, no one would ever come to him.
12:56: The whole thing breaks down with this analogy because it makes it sound like if God pursues you, he'll make it appealing enough that you will naturally want him.
13:09: And that's not how it works.
13:11: That's not predestination.
13:13: God predestined those whom he would save by choosing them before the foundation of the world because had he not done so, there was nothing he would do that would make them want to choose him.
13:24: And I'll stop tapping the table.
13:25: Yeah, I was gonna say, somebody mentioned that on the last show that they could hear the tapping on the table.
13:29: But that was the first thing.
13:31: That analogy falls apart immediately if you truly understand predestination.
13:36: But he's trying to reframe it to where he can distance himself from Calvinism because as he said in that other podcast, Calvinism is garbage.
13:45: So he's trying to still hold on to the terms of scripture while distancing himself from the Calvinist and reformed doctrine.
13:56: Yeah, and I would say this.
13:59: When we teach on the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the things that, I had Dr.
14:04: Edward Alcor on last week or two weeks ago.
14:07: And one of the things that he mentioned was when we talk about the doctrine of the Trinity, we have to be careful not to use analogies because all analogies will not only break down but will lead us into wrong thinking.
14:19: So if we think of God as a father, and I'm a father, a husband, and a son, so God can be father, son, and spirit, that you end up with a modalism at that point or some other false view.
14:34: And I think that's what we have here.
14:36: I think, again, and I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
14:41: And I know you do too.
14:42: I mean, we're not just here to cut people off at the knees.
14:46: I mean, in no way am I saying necessarily that Driscoll's a false teacher or anything like that.
14:49: I don't know him enough to know his personal life.
14:52: I know the things that came out about him were bad.
14:54: Apparently, he's had some form of repentance.
14:56: I don't know.
14:57: So again, this is nothing personal.
14:59: This is all about the issues of the sermon.
15:03: I think when you make an illustration, you have to, the thing that he didn't say, and I wish he would have, is that all illustrations break down and this illustration breaks down at the point because he affirms later that we don't have the ability to choose without God working on our heart.
15:22: So it's not that he doesn't know it and it's not that he doesn't affirm it, but he had this really great idea.
15:27: Well, I pursued my wife before she pursued me.
15:29: If that's all he said, that would have been enough.
15:32: If he would have said God pursues us and gives us the ability to pursue him, that may have been okay.
15:37: But he, like you said, he makes it her, he can't change his wife's heart.
15:44: God is the one who can change the leopard spots.
15:47: He can change the Ethiopian skin.
15:50: He can change the heart of man.
15:54: But the illustration certainly makes it as if, at any point the wife could have, and this is where, because I've heard other people make this illustration.
16:02: They'll say, well, God predestines us in the same way that I predestined that my kids are gonna go to school today because I know getting up, they were gonna go to school because I wasn't gonna let them stay home.
16:10: I predestined they were gonna, I've heard that illustration.
16:12: And the answer to that is, well, no, because on the way to school, you could get into a car accident.
16:17: Your tire could blow.
16:18: You could go start the car and the engine be dead.
16:21: There's all kinds of things.
16:22: There's all kinds of reasons why you lack the power and the ability to really do any form of predestination that seems like what God does.
16:32: And so I just, I think the illustration immediately breaks down.
16:36: I think, but I agree with you.
16:40: And this is so rare.
16:41: No, I'm just kidding.
16:43: No, I agree with you that he's trying to distance himself from the hard, the logical position of Calvinism, which again, he thinks is garbage.
16:53: And later he will say he disagrees with Calvinism.
16:56: We're gonna listen to that clip.
16:57: But it is this sort of, he's softening it.
17:00: He's giving it a playful, I was pursuing my wife at Red Robin and we ate French fries.
17:04: That's a playful way of looking at it.
17:07: So he's trying to couch it in these easy terms.
17:11: But what he's doing is he's giving an illustration up front that doesn't comport with what he's gonna teach later.
17:17: And so it's just, I think it's unhelpful.
17:21: I think without this illustration, it would have been a better sermon.
17:24: Because from here on, at least for the middle portion of the sermon, we saw what Abraham and God, choosing Abraham and God doing that unilaterally.
17:30: That part's fairly consistent.
17:33: I mean, that part's good, but this illustration at the front really front loads the sermon in a negative way.
17:37: Right, and the problem is is that he, immediately after the illustration, he says, this is how God pursues us.
17:43: He equates it equally.
17:47: And that's not how the Bible demonstrates.
17:51: So here's the next clip.
17:52: This is, he uses an illustration that's similar to one that I've used before.
17:56: So I'm gonna throw this out.
17:57: This is actually, when I say it's a good illustration, it's not good because I've used it.
18:00: But this illustration is an illustration of voting and the fact that we tend to wanna vote and God doesn't need our vote.
18:07: And I just wanted to say, so this is an example of him being more consistent with at least how we would understand God working unilaterally.
18:14: We think, no, no, no, we should vote.
18:16: We should get the vote.
18:17: My question is, how's that going? How many of you are just loving the results? How many of you, first of all, love the voting process, all the polls, the candidates, the process, the media, the riots? How many of you love that? And then once the results are decided, how many of you are really happy with what we now have? Wouldn't it be better if God just decided everything? You know what? In heaven, God's gonna decide everything.
18:48: In heaven, you won't need to register to vote.
18:50: There'll just be one guy who votes.
18:52: His name is Jesus and he won't make things better.
18:54: He'll make everything perfect.
18:56: The point is that the best person to make the big decisions is God.
19:00: And if God is good, then the decisions...
19:04: Oh, I clicked off of a little too.
19:06: If God is good, his decisions are perfect, basically what he said.
19:08: There's only one second left in that and I just happened to bump the thing.
19:12: Very professional podcast here, always the top notch of professional technicality.
19:17: So apologize for cutting him off there.
19:19: But we get the point.
19:20: And that is, I've said this many times, there's an old thing I would sometimes hear in Baptist churches, you know, God voted for you, the devil voted against you, and you decide by the tying vote.
19:31: And he's making the point that's not the case.
19:34: So in that sense, I would agree with what he just said.
19:37: I just think it goes against his initial illustration because in his initial illustration, his wife had a vote.
19:43: She could have voted down the driscoll.
19:48: She could have pulled her lever and had a hanging chad.
19:51: She could have had all kinds of stuff.
19:52: The minute he popped up with that, I'm giving you this box that has a wedding ring in it because one day you're gonna be my wife.
19:59: Wait a minute.
20:01: You're crazy and you need to go away from me.
20:04: She could have easily shot that down.
20:05: So yes, she had a vote, but according to him now, we're not supposed to have a vote.
20:11: We don't have a vote.
20:11: Yeah, so a little inconsistency there.
20:14: Clip three, he's gonna talk about how the building that they're in.
20:20: And if this story is accurate to the way he tells it, it is an amazing story.
20:26: And when I said that, I'm not in any way accusing him of being a liar.
20:29: Don't get me wrong.
20:32: But I do know how easy it is to exaggerate.
20:34: And men and women have the tendency to say things that are sometimes a little, I caught a fish, you're a fisherman, the fish was whatever.
20:43: And the way he tells the story is very fantastic if it happened the way, but he equates this to predestination.
20:50: And I really think this is a, I think this is showing his charismatic bent because he, well, just listen.
20:58: And so let me just tell you how God predestined how we got to this point.
21:02: We moved here five years ago.
21:04: And at that time, we were looking at planting a church and our family thought about planting and we prayed about it.
21:10: And some of you probably don't know the story.
21:12: I'll tell you briefly.
21:14: I went and met with Pastor Jimmy Evans, one of our overseers, one of our pastors.
21:19: And he said, don't rent a building.
21:21: You're gonna buy a building.
21:22: It'll be off the 101.
21:23: It'll seat 800.
21:24: You'll be able to purchase.
21:25: It'll be grandfathered as a church.
21:27: And God's gonna provide that for you.
21:31: Very specific.
21:31: I said 800, that's very specific.
21:34: I came back.
21:35: I said, realtor.
21:35: I said, okay, where's that building that was prophesied? Like it doesn't exist.
21:39: I asked Jimmy, Pastor Jimmy, where is it? He's like, it's coming, just wait.
21:43: Okay, okay.
21:44: Next thing I know, this building comes available.
21:47: We were able to purchase it before we had people.
21:51: So thank you for coming.
21:56: And it was the, we got the keys to the building on the 50th anniversary of the grand opening to the day.
22:04: This place opened on Easter, 1966.
22:07: We had our first informational meeting, Easter, 2016.
22:11: And then it was the following Easter, we finally had our full Easter service.
22:15: We set up every single chair in this room.
22:18: There were 793.
22:21: And I was like, well, Jimmy was close.
22:24: And then we looked in the sound booth and there, I kid you not, seven seats.
22:28: We sat exactly 800 seats in a church off the 101 that was grandfathered in that we purchased that God had prepared for us.
22:39: Okay, so this is his explanation of how he got the building.
22:43: Again, not calling into question, it's a great story.
22:48: I mean, if that is exactly how it worked out, that's interesting.
22:52: But what he is doing, and this is why I played this clip, is he's going to begin equating predestination with the idea of destiny.
23:04: And we do know that destiny is part of the word predestination.
23:08: Predestination comes from the Greek word prohorizo.
23:11: Horizo is where we get the word horizon.
23:13: It's the idea of the furthest point you can see, that end, so the idea of an end point.
23:19: And so if you can see the horizon, that's where you're going, and therefore predestination is the determining of where you're going before you go, right? So the idea of destiny is in that, the idea of predestination.
23:31: And so when he says, when the Bible says we're predestined, it's usually things like predestined being conformed to the image of Christ, predestined, it's referring to our destiny in Christ, being in him, being in heaven, those things.
23:48: But he is now equating this to things that happen in time, things like getting a building, and he's gonna go on to talk about other things, money's raised, and he does do like a 10-minute pitch in the middle of the sermon.
24:00: Did you hear, you heard that part, you heard the whole sermon.
24:02: There's like a 10-minute pitch about how much money they've raised, and they've got this many hundreds of thousands and whatever, and how they needed a million dollars, and they got it in two weeks or whatever.
24:10: And that's fine, again, all probably true.
24:12: He has a popular voice.
24:15: People like to listen to him.
24:16: He's charismatic in his speaking.
24:18: I'm sure he gets a lot of followers, a lot of money.
24:21: So they have no problem thinking he could raise a million dollars or whatever it is that he raised.
24:26: But the idea of destiny, in Calvinistic conversation, we talk about those things more in the line of the idea of providence, God working out his plan in time toward the destiny of the elect, which is to be with Christ, to be conformed to the image of Christ, those things.
24:42: So there is a sense in which predestination and providence are intertwined theologically in the idea.
24:49: But he's focusing on this, he's in the middle of the sermon, he's really stopped talking about what the end of the argument is, and that is whether or not this affects who's going to heaven.
25:03: But he starts talking about how this affects things in your life.
25:06: And there's nothing wrong with that.
25:07: I'm just saying this is where he has sort of gone away from maybe the initial part of the conversation, and now it's how things are working out in life.
25:17: So, make sense? Yes, and I think that it lines up with, this is where he's connecting it with the original illustration.
25:25: Yeah, yeah.
25:26: Everything worked out with his wife because it was destined to be.
25:30: So this, and I think you're right with providence, all things work together if we go with those who love God and are called according to his purpose.
25:36: Everything that happens in our life happens as God has ordained for it to happen.
25:40: So to make the, he can make the argument.
25:43: This is how God ordained for this to happen.
25:45: This was supposed to go down exactly how it went down.
25:48: Now, we have no way of proving if it went down exactly how it, because we don't have all the details.
25:53: But, if it happens.
25:54: And he's almost speaking as like, this guy, Pastor Jimmy, almost prophesied.
25:57: That's the problem I got with it, is making some kind of prophetic statement.
26:02: That's where I get a little, eh.
26:05: And there's a couple times here where he talks about where the Lord told him.
26:08: And that's, but that's the charismatic.
26:11: But again, he said he's charismatic, so you know, we.
26:14: That's part of that theological position.
26:17: And this next one goes with that.
26:19: So I'm gonna, hanging on those words, I'm gonna just play, this is only an 18 second clip.
26:23: Because again, God having a destiny for you is a really exciting thing to pursue, not something to just argue about.
26:32: Now, I clipped out this 18 second because he said, God having a destiny for you.
26:38: And again, now we've sort of gone away from the idea of the destiny being heaven.
26:44: And we've started talking about a destiny in the life.
26:46: And again, charismatic folks tend to be very focused on what God's gonna do in the here and now.
26:53: And one of the things that tends to be, and this is not, please don't think I'm painting with a broad brush, all charismatic's not all the same.
27:00: Charismaticism is a very large swath of Christianity.
27:03: And I'm not saying at all that they're not Christians.
27:05: But within charismatic circles, there tend to be those, especially those who tend towards health and wealth, which is a false gospel, so there's danger in this.
27:14: They tend to make everything about the here and now.
27:16: Again, buildings, money, all these things.
27:20: And what's happening, at least what I see is happening, is in this portion of the sermon, he's saying, you need to be excited about predestination because God has destined something great for you.
27:33: And that almost to me could be something that I would hear from Paula White or from, what's his name, Joel Osteen or somebody.
27:41: God's destiny for you is this 800 seat building or this, the wonderful house or the great parking spot or whatever.
27:48: What if God has destined though, and just go with me for a moment.
27:52: What if God has destined that you are going to be a missionary who is unknown, underfunded, and who is going to die in the furthest reaches of the Indonesian jungle at the hands of people who didn't want to hear your message and so they gave you a death sentence and you died in that situation? And don't think that that doesn't happen.
28:23: That happens to missionaries a lot.
28:26: So what if that's the destiny that God has prepared for you? And if so, does that comport with what he, because again, listen again to what he just said.
28:38: Because again, God having a destiny for you is a really exciting thing to pursue, not something to just argue about.
28:46: It's a really exciting thing to pursue.
28:48: Okay, but that's assuming that it's an 800 seat auditorium or something like that.
28:55: Now you pulled up something I guess.
28:57: Well, he's framing it as like God's destiny is always gonna be some exciting positive experience is the way he's framing it.
29:09: Because everything he said to this point, his wife, with his wife, and with the building, and with all this other stuff.
29:15: But what you're talking about is, especially talking about being destined to go to Uganda and die for the cause of the faith.
29:25: I mean, Jim Elliot story, you know.
29:27: Yeah, things like that.
29:28: So I'm reminded Ephesians 2, eight through 10 in verse 10 is the important part, but I'll, concerning this, all of it's important, but I'll start in verse eight.
29:38: For by grace you've been saved through faith, not of yourselves as a gift of God, not a result of works that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God, what, prepared beforehand so that we should walk in them.
29:51: So there's an idea of, yes, there is a destiny in a sense of there are good works that you are to perform, but some people's good works that they're predestined to perform in the name of Christ are just what you're talking about.
30:07: Going somewhere, being completely cut off from everyone, underfunded, and you're just there for the sake of the gospel, and the minute you open your mouth, you're killed.
30:18: You know, it's the disciples.
30:20: Boiled in oil, sawn in two, crucified upside down.
30:25: Their destiny wasn't an 800 seat building in all this positivity he's talking about.
30:31: And I don't necessarily, I mean, all those people would say that when you get to heaven and you talk to them, they would say, yes, I died for the cause of Christ, and that was great.
30:41: They died for their king.
30:43: But while they're going through it, it wasn't necessarily a pleasant experience.
30:47: You know what I'm saying? And the idea of being exciting.
30:50: Excited about it.
30:51: Your destiny is exciting.
30:53: I would imagine as Peter's getting ready to be crucified upside down, he's not excited about it.
31:00: You know, he knows what's coming, but he's in the back of his mind keeping that thought that Paul put out there, that this slight momentary affliction is preparing for me an eternal way to glory.
31:11: When I close my eyes, and finally in this life, when this kills me, I'm off to better things.
31:17: But he's framing, and he's putting it all together with salvation, and he's conflating stuff that he shouldn't be doing.
31:25: It's kind of irritating.
31:27: No, I agree.
31:28: My wife, she loves to read, and she reads biographies a lot.
31:32: She recently read a biography of George Mueller.
31:35: She wants to come on the show and talk about it, so be looking forward to that one.
31:39: But hearing of his life, and she'll often read these things, and we'll talk about them, and she'll learn new things and share with me, and just the life that he lived was one where miracles happened.
31:52: They would need food, and then they would show up, and somebody would show up with a dozen eggs or something to feed them, or a case of milk.
32:00: I just knew you needed this, Pastor Mueller, or whatever.
32:03: I mean, his life was a life of miracles, but it was literally living hand-to-mouth every day.
32:08: It wasn't that, you know, and so.
32:10: Well, don't you have a fella? I can't remember his name.
32:13: He's got like six kids, seven kids.
32:15: He's been here before and preached a couple times, went overseas, and he's had a lot of difficulty, and I can't think of his name.
32:22: Are you thinking of Scott Phillips, the missionary? You're right, that's what I'm saying.
32:25: I mean, you've talked about him having some serious situations happen.
32:29: And miraculous things have occurred, and this is why I'm not opposed to the miraculous.
32:34: I see things that Scott tells me about that are no short of only God could have orchestrated these things, but this is a guy who's not, again, you know, he's not running crusades of half-hearted American Christians through a tent revival.
32:52: He's going to the deepest, darkest heart of a place.
32:55: He was the first white man they'd ever seen.
32:57: And he's taken his wife and several children.
32:59: Yeah, he's got seven kids.
33:00: Right, into that environment, right.
33:02: Yeah, and by the way, again, if you're a listener and you are looking to support a missionary effort and you don't know about Scott Phillips, look up the Scott Phillips and the Dow tribe, D-A-O, which stands for Desiring Advancement Overseas, is what D-A-O stands for, but it refers also to the Dow tribe, which is the tribe that he ministers to.
33:22: Look him up and find out information about him because it's nothing short of miraculous.
33:27: And if you are one who, I've always said, if you cannot be a missionary, you can support a missionary and you can be holding the rope for those who are going.
33:38: And that's what we see ourselves doing with him.
33:41: Right, and I just bring him up because his- His destiny.
33:45: His destiny ain't a bed of roses.
33:48: That's right, that's right.
33:49: All right, so let's, this next one, I'm almost tempted to skip it because of time, but I'll let it play.
33:57: This is, the only reason I put this in here was I felt like Driscoll was trying to be somewhat of a comedian.
34:04: He's talking, nothing he says is necessarily wrong, but I wanted to play this just to sort of show his sort of cavalier attitude.
34:11: And I'm not one, you know, every once in a while I'll say something in the pulpit that's funny, but there's something about being funny and then there's something about trying to be a comedian.
34:21: And this, that's why I said this goes for a while.
34:23: And again, it is funny.
34:24: There are things that he says that are funny.
34:26: And, but, but it just, it sort of just takes me out of the message, but I'll let you be the, be the judge.
34:33: So dad loved Esau.
34:36: Mom preferred Jacob.
34:39: Esau means Harry.
34:41: So, I like him.
34:45: Okay, like, look, let's do this, here we go.
34:47: See, I'm, my dad was a Wookiee.
34:49: My mom was a Chia Pet.
34:52: And O'Driscoll is the Irish word for Chewbacca.
34:56: So I like Esau, he's hairy.
35:00: And, and I always say, I don't have a hair growth problem.
35:03: I have a hair distribution problem.
35:05: So my bangs, thinner than they should be, but I have dreadlocks on my feet.
35:09: So I have a hair distribution problem.
35:11: So Esau means hairy, can also mean red.
35:14: So he was a really hairy, redheaded kid.
35:17: So he comes out looking like Elmo.
35:19: That's how he comes out, okay? His brother's name means trickster.
35:26: He's a con man.
35:28: How many of you have that sibling? They always cheated in games.
35:32: They always found a way to win.
35:35: And sometimes they would annoy you and frustrate you until you erupted.
35:40: And then you got in trouble because mom always walked in as soon as they were done setting you up for the loss.
35:47: You're the tricksters, that was Jacob.
35:49: Question, which of these boys is a good boy? They're both bad boys.
35:54: See, a lot of people are like, God picks the good people.
35:56: Well, then nobody's getting picked.
35:59: Nobody's getting picked.
36:00: I thought you had a goat, anyway.
36:02: Yeah, and again, now I do, I would agree with that point that he's making, that neither one of them are good.
36:10: God doesn't choose, and he's in Romans nine, you know, Jacob I've loved, Esau I've hated.
36:13: He's dealing with the choice of Jacob over Esau.
36:17: And so this part, again, but he's hearing the laughter.
36:20: And so now he's gonna double down on the humor and it's gonna be less about the seriousness of the issue and more about, you know, how far can I push this joke? He picks the bad people and he does good things for bad people, that's what our God does.
36:35: So here's the difference, they're very different.
36:39: Esau is a man's man, he's dad's son.
36:43: Jacob is mama's boy, he stays home with mom.
36:46: So here's how it works, Esau goes hunting with dad and he eats meat that he kills with his hands.
36:53: Jacob stays home, he's a soy boy and bakes with his mom.
36:56: That's what he does, okay? Esau drives a lifted truck, it's a diesel.
37:05: Jacob drives a Prius, Esau loves country music.
37:14: Jacob loves Disney soundtracks, Esau watches cage fighting and Jacob cries at all the Lifetime movies.
37:26: Esau wears boots and Jacob wears Crocs with socks, that's what he does, okay? Trust me, it's in the Hebrew, I researched all week.
37:40: It's exactly what happened.
37:44: All right, so again, I can be somewhat forgiving.
37:50: It's, you know, I know when you're in the pulpit and you're connected with the congregation, you're talking to them and you are having a, you're preaching, you're also interacting with the audience and you're hearing them, you know, understand.
38:05: I don't know, just tell me your thoughts, because I, yeah.
38:08: He's overemphasizing the point using comedic effect, okay? He's trying to make, he's just making the point that Esau's a man's man, he's just grizzly and Jacob is not, okay, fine.
38:24: But interesting enough, I watched Ben Shapiro, he reacts to TikToks every now and then and one of them was woke religious TikToks and one woman tried to claim that Jacob was like gender non-binary because he stayed at home and cooked with his mama and because of that, he was some kind of, you know, he could go either way.
38:48: He was like a girl and so Ben Shapiro loses it because he's Jewish all day.
38:53: I mean, he starts quoting like in Hebrew, some of the stuff and he starts talking about how, man, Jacob fathered like 12 kids.
39:00: What are you talking about? He led people into battle, he did all kind of stuff that wouldn't qualify him as a soy boy.
39:07: So there is an element in which he's going a little too far, you know.
39:11: Yes, you can, and the other thing I'd like to point out is just because you're not, I know, just because you're not out there in the woods hunting every day doesn't mean you're less of a man.
39:23: Thank God, because I haven't been hunting in months.
39:27: And just because you're not covered in hair doesn't mean you're less than a man.
39:32: I can't grow that.
39:34: It'll come in here, but it won't come in here.
39:39: So he's overemphasizing the distinction between the two and it's all coming down to, you know, God, his daddy liked him because he was a man's man, his mama liked him because he was more like her.
39:51: And then pitting them against each other, he goes into, you know, this whole, which he's right when he goes into that part of the sermon about, you know, parents choosing favorites and all that.
40:00: That was a good section, but this here, he's just overemphasizing and using comedy to do it.
40:06: He did it with the first, he could have just stopped with the diesel truck and the Prius and be done, but he had to just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going, because he's feeding off the crowd at that point.
40:16: That's where your point comes in, that's too much.
40:19: Yeah, and- You're not here to do a standup act, you're here to do, you're here to preach.
40:24: And I just finished a three-year series in Genesis, so I had to go back to think about, okay, what did I say when I was preaching Genesis, the story of Jacob and Esau? And I did talk about the fact that Jacob was a homebody more so than, and I think that's a term I used, was he's a homebody and Esau was outdoorsy.
40:50: I think what I said was Jacob was indoorsy, and I get that because I'm indoorsy.
40:56: I'm an inside person, I like being inside.
41:00: And so that was part of what I taught on, but again, looking at it from just the stress of comedy, and again, this doesn't have anything to do with predestination, I think it just goes along with the, this is Driscoll's method.
41:16: His method is to sort of create this easy listening sermon, where it's almost like you're listening to a standup act, and he gets into it.
41:30: And he used to not be that way, to a degree.
41:34: I didn't listen to him enough back in the day, but he's always been one to work emotions.
41:42: He will do that, but I remember one, I used to be a big fan of him, because he was one of the first ones I came in contact with.
41:47: He did a series on marriage and men, I think is what it was called.
41:50: And that's where he got the reputation of being the cussing pastor, because he would cuss and say small curse words when he was addressing the crowd.
41:57: But he was also not afraid to step on your toes, especially as a man, which I appreciated, and this was before I was even a Calvinist.
42:05: I come across this, and it was a challenging series, and it was all well and good.
42:10: It's just as time's gone on, he's kind of started this kind of mess.
42:13: So he wasn't always about, but you're right, he does like to play on emotion and use that, and he's doing that here to some degree.
42:22: But anyway, we're low on time, so I'll stop talking.
42:25: No, no, you're fine, you're fine.
42:26: This next clip is the longest clip.
42:29: This is six whole minutes, and how we're gonna get through six minutes without actually stopping it and talking about it, it might be tough.
42:36: But the reason why, he is going to talk about six different positions.
42:40: The first three, he himself addresses these are heretical.
42:44: He talks about universalism and things like that.
42:47: And then the last three positions, he gives Arminianism, Calvinism, and double predestination, and what he calls single predestination.
42:54: That's the part we really wanna focus on, but I want you to hear how he puts this all together.
43:00: And I know it's six minutes, I know it's a long time on a podcast to listen to a clip, but I'm trying to be fair.
43:05: So just get your ears on and listen to how he explains this.
43:11: This leads to a question.
43:13: God chose Jacob, not Esau.
43:15: Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
43:17: It leads to a theological question that I'll try and answer for you in a moment.
43:21: It's one of the most debated questions in Christianity.
43:25: And that is this question.
43:27: Do we choose God or does God choose us? That's the case study with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.
43:35: There are three options.
43:37: The first three are false teaching and wrong, and then there are three Christian options.
43:41: The first is universal damnation.
43:44: And that is that no one chooses God and God doesn't choose anyone, that we all go to hell.
43:52: This by the way, is not super popular.
43:58: It's not really caught on.
44:02: There's not like a whole group of people like we're kindling and they're not super excited about that.
44:08: But let me say this.
44:10: This is the deal that Jesus Christ gives to Satan and demons.
44:15: Satan and demons sinned, rebelled and fell before we did.
44:21: They have no possibility of salvation and eternal life.
44:25: Jesus didn't come in the likeness of a demon.
44:27: He didn't die and rise in the place of demons.
44:31: Jesus in fact says, and I quote, that hell was made for the devil and his angels.
44:36: So what Satan and demons get is complete total justice, no mercy, no grace.
44:43: We need- I would essentially agree with that.
44:47: And this is a position I've never heard a human take this position for humans.
44:51: No, I hadn't either.
44:52: That's the first time I ever heard that one.
44:54: Yeah, yeah.
44:55: I've heard this couched in a different way where people say there's three different things God could have chosen.
44:59: He could have chosen to save all.
45:01: He could have chosen to save none.
45:02: And he could have chosen to save some.
45:04: In the Calvinist position, he chose to save some.
45:06: Right.
45:07: What he's talking about here would be our default position had God not acted at all.
45:10: That's right.
45:11: We need to start with the absolute gratitude that we got an alternative to their deal.
45:19: A lot of people are like, how could God send anybody to hell? Well, he sends all the demons there.
45:26: So my question is, since we did the same thing they did and we joined them in the rebellion, how come we get to go to heaven? The thing that I've always struggled with is not hell, but heaven.
45:35: Hell makes sense.
45:36: Bad people go to jail.
45:37: Okay.
45:38: Bad people get ice cream.
45:39: What? It's grace that is a bit complicated if you want to know the truth.
45:45: So before we start with everybody in heaven, start with everybody in hell.
45:50: The second option is universal salvation, also called universalism.
45:53: And that is eventually somehow, someday, someway, everybody goes to heaven.
45:57: Nobody's going to hell.
45:59: You go to purgatory, pay it back.
46:01: You suffer for a while, hell's temporary.
46:03: Some version.
46:05: Eventually, we're all going to get there.
46:07: Not true.
46:08: It's a false teaching.
46:11: Jesus talks of hell more than anyone in the entire Bible.
46:15: Jesus is very clear that there's heaven and hell.
46:17: And guess what that means? There's heaven and hell.
46:22: And that both are forever.
46:25: It says in Daniel 12, two, and then Jesus quotes that verse, that multitudes that sleep in the dust of the earth will arise, talking about the resurrection of the dead, some to eternal life, some to eternal death.
46:36: You're going to live forever.
46:38: Question is where? You're either going to be in heaven or hell.
46:41: So not everybody goes to heaven.
46:44: Again, I just want to mention, this is one of the areas where I think Driscoll is doing something right.
46:50: I mean, that's why I say this is not all a blast.
46:55: We're not here to blast him.
46:56: Right, there's- That's a true thing.
46:58: Right, there's a lot in his sermon here that I would 100% agree with.
47:02: Yeah.
47:03: And he handles very well and explains very well.
47:06: We're just here to talk about his inconsistencies with Calvinism and how he's trying to distance himself while still holding on to some of it.
47:14: Yeah, yeah.
47:14: But like I said, so we're not disagreeing so far.
47:18: Right.
47:19: Some do, some don't.
47:21: Third possibility, Pelagianism, named after a guy named Pelagius.
47:24: He was condemned as a false teacher and a heretic.
47:26: And he taught that we are not sinners by nature, that we have a totally free will.
47:33: We're basically good people.
47:34: We're basically like Adam and Eve before sin entered the world.
47:37: We looked at Romans 5, 12 through 21, that because of one man's sin, the whole race fell and we've inherited an imputed sinful nature.
47:45: He denied all of that.
47:46: And he said, you know what? We're good people with a free will.
47:49: We're like Adam and Eve.
47:49: We could just pick God or not pick God.
47:53: And here he told us in Romans 3, 10 and 11, no one is good.
47:56: No one is righteous.
47:57: No one seeks God.
48:00: God's the one who seeks, not us.
48:01: God's the one who chooses, not us.
48:04: God's the one, this'll blow your mind.
48:06: God's the one that has free will, not us.
48:09: You and I are not free.
48:12: God is free.
48:13: And God is free to do what he wants.
48:15: We're not free to do what we want.
48:17: Again, I know he says he's not a Calvinist, but he's making a stronger, in that sense, Calvinistic argument.
48:25: But you know, then other people who would listen, like I know that there's a certain movement now that's opposed to Calvinism that's even trying to revive Pelagianism, saying Pelagius was a good guy.
48:38: Pelagius was mistreated by Augustine, and Augustine was a Manichean Gnostic, and he mistreated Pelagius, who was right on, or he wasn't as bad as Augustine made him out to be.
48:52: And so at least he affirms the heretical teaching of Pelagius.
48:57: And if you were to take that portion of the clip, where he starts talking about Romans 3 and all that, and just play that for anybody, they would say, that's Calvinism.
49:07: That's right, yes.
49:09: God's decisions override our decisions.
49:12: God is the Lord.
49:13: He's the sovereign.
49:15: Thankfully, he's good.
49:16: And so his decisions for us are actually better than our decisions for us.
49:21: Like I chose hell, and God's like, no, I'm gonna take you to heaven.
49:24: His free will overrode my choice, and I really prefer his decisions.
49:30: God's not just in charge, he's good.
49:33: So the decisions he makes are right, okay? Then the other three are possibilities within Christian belief.
49:42: So if you hold any one of these three positions at the end, we love you, you're welcome at the church.
49:47: You're not a second-class citizen.
49:50: Arminianism, also called Wesleyanism, all of this is in the Duck, Duck, Doom ebook.
49:55: It's the belief that we are sinners by nature and choice, but that God at some point gives us a free will opportunity, a moment to choose.
50:04: That he opens our will, kind of like Adam and Eve, into a state of possibility of making a free will decision toward God.
50:11: They would call this prevenient, pre-meaning first, prevenient grace, that God gives everybody a chance to choose, okay? Now, I would not necessarily hold that, but there are Bible-believing, Jesus-loving, faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who have come to that conclusion based upon the study of Scripture.
50:29: The next option is something called double predestination, also known as Calvinism.
50:36: And I say this in other services, but I'm not sure John Calvin believed in Calvinism, so that's in the ebook too.
50:41: That'd be fun, read that.
50:42: So anyways, I'll just throw that out there.
50:46: So double predestination is that before time began, God said, you're going to heaven, you're going to hell.
50:53: There's nothing you can do about it.
50:55: Your destiny is either heaven or hell, and I'm predetermining where I'm putting everyone in advance, and there's nothing that they can say or do about it, okay? That would be Calvinism or double predestination.
51:08: There are many godly people, some of my dearest friends would hold that position.
51:11: Some people emotionally struggle with it because it seems like God is being mean or capricious.
51:16: The third is called single predestination.
51:19: It was held by the church father, Augustine, and Martin Luther.
51:23: This is my position, so this is the right one.
51:29: And that is that- I can't fault him for that because I have made that joke myself.
51:35: I saved this one for the end because this is my position and it's the right one.
51:39: That's, I give him that one.
51:45: We chose hell, all of us, and God singularly predestined some of us by overriding our decision with his decision, okay? And that is that God doesn't make anybody go to hell, that we make ourselves go to hell, and that God chooses to save some, which, again, is a much better deal than Satan and demons got.
52:12: Okay, all right, so that was the lengthy clip.
52:15: Right away, I'm gonna get your thoughts, and then I have a ton that I wanna say, but where do you want me to go first? I can go first, so that way you're not interrupted.
52:25: The single predestination, him talking about, we chose hell, and God singularly overrides that decision by predestining us for salvation.
52:40: I'd like to see him reconcile that with his original illustration with his wife.
52:46: Because the original illustration with his wife, the way God deals with us when it comes to predestination is that he pursues us, and we ultimately, because of his pursuit, choose him.
52:56: We have a vote.
53:01: So, that doesn't line up with his original thing.
53:07: As far as double predestination, and maybe you can help me out with this, because this is where I struggle with that one, is I understand we've all, we all have the ability to choose God, so therefore he chooses us before the foundation of the world.
53:25: And I know you're gonna go into equal ultimacy is where you're going with this.
53:32: So, if he chooses those he would save, how is it not, and I don't necessarily believe this, I'm just asking the question, how is it not that he doesn't choose those he's not going to save? You see what I'm saying? That's where you're going with equal ultimacy, I think, is that he makes the same, he chooses just as, he chooses with as much veracity those he's going to send to hell as those he's going to save.
53:53: If I understand that correctly.
53:56: So, not to jump on your, but go ahead.
53:58: No, no, no, no, no.
53:58: Go ahead.
54:00: Okay.
54:02: First thing is, I do think that he is making a, he's making a distinction where there's not much of a difference.
54:20: And because what you just said is true, if God actively chooses to save the elect, he is passing over the non-elect or the reprobate.
54:34: And in passing over them, there is a determination in their destiny as well.
54:39: Now, I would say this, I agree with him that it's not the same action, and this is where I have one of my fellow elders and I have talked about this at length, because we would not affirm double predestination in this way.
54:53: We don't affirm double predestination as God doing the same action on behalf of the elect as he does on behalf of the reprobate.
55:01: Because if you believe that God elects the saved and therefore gives them grace, and he chooses to damn the reprobate and therefore give them what it takes to be damned, you're eliminating their participation in their sin and their relationship with Adam, which brought about their nature.
55:23: And so they have, in that sense, participated in their own damnation.
55:29: They have brought about the requirement of their own condemnation, as they've sinned, right? And so this is where I would tend to agree with him.
55:42: I just don't think that he's being fair to Calvinists.
55:45: That's why I think that, and you mentioned the term equal ultimacy.
55:50: This is a term which very few people are familiar with.
55:55: I know Dr.
55:56: White has used it a lot, and so more people who listen to him probably have heard this term, but equal ultimacy is this idea.
56:02: The idea that God does the same, that God makes the same effort on behalf of the elect as he does on the reprobate.
56:10: And he does the same effort in saving the elect as he does in damning the reprobate.
56:14: And that is not what we believe as Calvinists.
56:17: That's not what any Calvinist I know who knows anything about Calvinism believes.
56:21: But the difference is that God actively gives grace to the elect, but passes over the non-elect, and allows them to continue in their state of rebellion, which leads to their condemnation.
56:37: Now, there would be some who would argue that no, God does the same amount.
56:44: And so there are those who would hold to a hard double predestination position where God is doing the same.
56:50: And so I guess I could be fair to him and say there are some who would say that.
56:55: But I think having heard Dr.
56:57: Sproul specifically, and I mean, he is, you know, high most patriarch of the Calvinists in many ways.
57:06: I mean, he has clearly taught on this where he talked about the difference between God's entering into a covenant relationship with the elect, giving grace to the elect versus passing over the non-elect.
57:18: This is in the book.
57:19: I mean, the book is right there, chosen by God, you know.
57:21: So he explains these things.
57:25: And so to say, well, Calvinists believe this, but John Calvin didn't believe this.
57:31: Okay, but do Calvinists really, do all Calvinists affirm this? Are you really being honest about Calvinism? You and I visited a church.
57:41: Let's tell this story.
57:43: There was a church in town.
57:45: I don't even remember the name of it, but they were advertising online they were going to have a Calvinism versus Arminianism discussion in the church.
57:57: And anybody was welcome to come and sit and listen as their pastor explained the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.
58:04: And I don't remember if he said he was going to solve the problem, but it was an advertisement, like come and hear this.
58:10: And it was one hour long.
58:12: And I remember thinking, how's he going to get through Calvinism, Arminianism in one hour? So you called me and you said, hey, do you want to go? I said, yeah.
58:22: I said, but I don't want to go as a pastor.
58:25: I don't want to go in and introduce myself as a pastor.
58:27: I just want to go sit in the back, hear what the dude has to say and leave.
58:30: I don't want to interrupt.
58:32: I don't want to say anything.
58:33: I don't want to ask a question.
58:35: I just want to get in and get out incognito.
58:40: This next part's my fault.
58:45: Well, I kept, like every time he'd say something, I would like grunt under my breath.
58:50: I didn't think I was being that loud, but I'd be like, mm.
58:52: And I think I drew attention to us anyway.
58:55: Well, here's what happened.
58:59: We get there and the pastor sees new people and it's a church about our size, so it's a smaller church.
59:05: So he, a church my size, you see new people, you go talk to the new people.
59:08: You shake their hand, you give them a hug, you welcome them, because this is new people and you're excited.
59:14: So he sees us, he immediately comes and he shows us around the church.
59:17: They have the coolest floor.
59:18: They had polished concrete done, looked like stone.
59:20: It was really neat, a lot of stuff, nice guy.
59:24: But I didn't tell him I was a pastor, because again, I didn't want to get into that.
59:30: So he ended up not being in the sanctuary, he ended up being in the fellowship hall.
59:34: So everybody was sitting at tables.
59:35: It was like a Sunday school class environment, not like a preaching message.
59:40: And the pastor said, okay, I'm gonna explain Calvinism, I'm gonna explain Arminianism, then I'm gonna take questions.
59:46: So I figured it was gonna go for an hour and then we're gonna get questions.
59:49: No, he explained Calvinism and Arminianism in 20 minutes.
59:55: So I can only say he did a very, very surface level explanation.
01:00:01: Calvinists believe this, Arminians believe this.
01:00:04: Let's talk about your questions.
01:00:05: And I was like, in my mind, I was thinking, what happened in this man's church to make him want to have this conversation? Because something had to have brought this up.
01:00:16: But then, like you said, you were kind of grunting and groaning while he was doing his thing.
01:00:22: And I was like, don't call attention to us, big dog.
01:00:26: You know, just, anyway, so finally, finally, he looks at us, because other people have asked questions.
01:00:34: And he looks at us and he goes, well, Keith and Richard, you're our guests tonight.
01:00:40: We'd like to hear what you think.
01:00:42: And I said, I really don't want to, I said it.
01:00:46: I said, I really don't want to say anything.
01:00:47: I'm here to listen and learn.
01:00:49: I'm not here to engage.
01:00:51: Because I really was, I'm not that guy.
01:00:53: I'm not the kind of guy who'd crash a party.
01:00:55: I just want to hear what he had to say.
01:00:57: And he goes, well, we're all family here.
01:01:01: So can you tell us what you think? And I said, well, I didn't introduce myself before as a pastor.
01:01:08: I said, but I am a pastor and I'm a pastor of a Calvinist church.
01:01:11: That's what made me want to come tonight.
01:01:12: Because I wanted to hear what you had to say.
01:01:15: I said, but I'm not here to argue.
01:01:17: And he goes, oh, okay.
01:01:18: Well, tell us what you think.
01:01:21: And I'm like, bro ham.
01:01:26: The last thing I said was trying to get you to skip me.
01:01:31: And so I said, well, here's what you have done that I think is the biggest error people make.
01:01:38: And it is the error of equal ultimacy.
01:01:42: And I said, is you have made the error of equating that God has to make the same effort to damn the reprobate as he does to save the elect.
01:01:51: I said, there is a difference between God giving grace, undeserved, unmerited favor to an individual and then God giving justice to a person who deserves condemnation.
01:02:06: I said, and when you equate those two as both actions of God independent of the work of the believer or independent of the work of the individual because we deserve hell, we don't deserve heaven.
01:02:22: And so God giving us justice is giving us simply what we deserve.
01:02:27: But God exercising grace to an undeserved sinner is different and understanding that solves a lot of the issue.
01:02:37: And so that was the part that really throws me off with people.
01:02:42: And again, I think this is where getting back to Driscoll is the issue is he says, both are, God's made the decision, there's nothing you can do about it.
01:02:53: What he's saying is God decided to send you to hell independent of what you've done.
01:02:58: No, God sends you to hell because of what you've done.
01:03:02: God sends you to hell because of your sinful and corrupt and rebellious nature, which you inherited from Adam, but is also part of who you are.
01:03:11: And you have rebelled against God and you deserve to go to hell.
01:03:15: I said this on Sunday.
01:03:17: I said, you know, we sang a song called Lord, I deserve thy deepest wrath as written by James Pettigrew Boyce.
01:03:22: I said, if you can't sing this song, you don't understand grace.
01:03:25: Because the song says, I deserve God's deepest wrath.
01:03:29: People won't sing that because they don't wanna hear what they truly are.
01:03:35: And if you understand you deserve God's wrath and you understand that you deserve, you deserve to be a pot fit for refuse, but God chooses to make you into a pot that's fit for honorable use, this is the picture in Romans nine, then it's all of God and all of God's grace.
01:03:59: And that's where I think, and I do, again, I could go on longer, I won't, but when he addresses Luther, Luther did hold to a position on predestination that was slightly different than Calvin's in that regard.
01:04:12: But they were all learning from Augustine and Augustine did hold a position of predestination, which was codified in the Council of Orange, which talks was the positions between Pelagius and Augustine on this issue.
01:04:27: And so it's just, I don't think he was being as fair as he could have been.
01:04:36: Are there Calvinists who hold to a hard double predestination where both are essentially acted on by God in the same way? Yes, but I don't think that's fair to paint all with a broad brush, so.
01:04:48: And it's just, again, it's him trying to figure out a way to distance himself from Calvin.
01:04:52: Yeah, I think it is distancing himself.
01:04:54: But at the end of the day, if you believe in single predestination, that God singularly gives grace to those whom he chooses, you are also saying, even if it's a passive statement, that God has chosen to pass over those whom he doesn't give that grace to, and therefore has destined them as well in that regard.
01:05:16: But it is a destination that they have, I do agree, that they have sinned and deserve.
01:05:21: So it's a deserved destination.
01:05:23: And you see that language throughout the Bible where God passes over all time.
01:05:28: Gives them up to the base mind, those things, yep.
01:05:30: Right, so.
01:05:31: All right, so we have two real quick clips here at the end.
01:05:34: I just wanna throw these out, and then we're gonna draw to a close because we're over an hour now.
01:05:38: But the first one is, again, going back to the attitude of Driscoll.
01:05:42: This clip, I only added this in because I think this, he's getting toward the end now.
01:05:48: He's still trying to be funny.
01:05:50: And he's gonna say something that I think is very patronizing.
01:05:52: Okay? So the reason I give you all of this, I can tell you right now, many people are like, ah, big word, big word, big word.
01:06:00: Where's the funny guy? Bring the funny guy back.
01:06:02: Okay, we'll do that, okay.
01:06:03: Okay, it leads to this.
01:06:06: How can a loving God hate some people? When he's doing the big word, big word thing, I just find that patronizing.
01:06:17: Again, I didn't have to show that clip.
01:06:19: I don't like it when a pastor treats his congregation like they're stupid.
01:06:27: There are times, like at the beginning of this sermon, when he said, theology, theos means God, logos means study of, so theology, study of God.
01:06:37: I have had to teach that before, but I don't say it every time I say the word theology because there comes a point where, yeah, I mean, these people know what theology is, bruh.
01:06:47: I mean, it's like, you know, you're, it's just, it's this whole, you know, I've heard preachers say you have to preach to everybody like they're fourth to sixth grade education.
01:06:58: Like everybody gets a middle school education, and so that's the level.
01:07:03: I'm not that.
01:07:04: I don't believe that.
01:07:05: I think you raise the bar and you pull your people up.
01:07:09: I don't think that you preach to people like they're stupid, and I don't think you treat people like they're stupid.
01:07:14: I'm not saying you can't make a joke, everyone, so I'm not saying you can't be funny, and I'm not saying you don't have to explain things.
01:07:18: R.C.
01:07:19: Sproul was the greatest teacher at taking the most difficult concepts and making them palatable and understandable for, but he never treated people like they were stupid.
01:07:28: And so I just take an issue with that.
01:07:32: Well, I understand what he was trying to do there.
01:07:34: He was, again, trying to be funny.
01:07:35: Yeah.
01:07:36: But yeah, it was distasteful.
01:07:39: Yeah, I just don't like that.
01:07:41: Just, yeah, don't do that to me.
01:07:43: I wouldn't have liked it if I would have been there.
01:07:45: Right.
01:07:46: That's me.
01:07:47: All right, so last but not least, this is when he talks about God hating Esau.
01:07:51: He gives an illustration of how God's hate is not hate in the same way that we think of hate.
01:07:59: The big debate here is does God, what does God mean by hate? And is he referring to individuals or groups of people? So there are three interpretive options here.
01:08:08: The double predestination of the Calvinistic position would be take it at face value.
01:08:12: Jacob, I loved, Esau, I hated.
01:08:14: God chooses one for salvation, chooses the other for damnation.
01:08:19: Before the foundations of the world, there's nothing you can do with that.
01:08:22: Who are you, Clay, to talk back to Potter? Just keep that to yourself.
01:08:26: Thank you very much.
01:08:27: Okay.
01:08:28: The second would be.
01:08:29: Now, he doesn't like that idea, but he literally used the argument Paul did.
01:08:34: He quotes what Paul is about to say.
01:08:37: Who are you, old man, to answer back to God? Can the thing formed say to him who formed it, why have you made me this way? He literally quotes the passage that is the next thing that Paul says after this, you know, just a few verses down.
01:08:49: But he equates this to double predestination.
01:08:50: Yeah, that's the wrong position, according to him.
01:08:53: According to him.
01:08:54: The single predestination, and that is that ultimately the word hate here is not as strong as our English translation would indicate.
01:09:05: Words like colors have hues.
01:09:07: So let's say it's blue.
01:09:08: You can have a blue that's so light, it almost looks white, or so dark, it almost looks black.
01:09:13: There's a range.
01:09:14: So words like colors have a range.
01:09:17: So some translations will say that the word hate here has a range of meaning.
01:09:21: Some translations will say rejected, did not accept, or God chose Jacob instead of Esau.
01:09:25: It can mean to pass over, not to choose, or not to prefer.
01:09:29: And the big idea here is God says, there's two bad boys.
01:09:32: I'm gonna choose this one to bring Jesus into the world, not this one.
01:09:37: I choose this one, not this one.
01:09:38: I prefer this one, not this one.
01:09:39: I'm gonna work through this one, not that one.
01:09:42: And it's not that God is actively, utterly despising.
01:09:45: It's that he is preferring and choosing.
01:09:47: Okay? And so that would be more the single predestination view.
01:09:53: Now, as I was praying for you yesterday, and I walked downstairs and I was prepping the sermon, Grace was like, how are you gonna explain the hate thing? All right, before we let him finish.
01:10:04: So he makes the argument there that choice is the act of love and not choosing is the act of hate.
01:10:13: I don't necessarily think that that's wrong, but I don't think that satisfies the problem when you end up with the question of, well, what does hate mean? And he's gonna go in a minute and kind of explain how hate can mean to love less, essentially, and all that.
01:10:27: But it's just, it's not solving the problem.
01:10:31: He's just trying to distance himself, but it doesn't solve anything.
01:10:35: And he tries to, well, he's gonna do it in a minute, equate it to preference.
01:10:40: It's about, I prefer one over the other.
01:10:42: Yeah.
01:10:42: And that's not what the word meant.
01:10:45: We've gotta have this conversation.
01:10:47: And God brought to mind the words of Jesus.
01:10:49: And so I finished my sermon and I went back up and I looked at the original text and the original language.
01:10:55: Jesus uses this exact same word for hate that Paul does in Romans 9, 13.
01:11:00: Paul says, Jacob, I loved, Esau, I hated.
01:11:03: Jesus uses the exact same word.
01:11:05: And I'll read it to you.
01:11:07: Just real quick, before he even does, we all know what he's gonna read, where Jesus says, hate not your mother and father, wife, sister and brother, and all those things.
01:11:15: And I'm gonna let him say it.
01:11:16: But before I say this, don't fall into this trap.
01:11:20: Exegetically, please don't fall into this trap.
01:11:25: This word is the same word used over here, therefore they mean the same thing.
01:11:30: Words don't work like that.
01:11:32: Just because a word means something in one place does not mean it means the exact same thing in another place.
01:11:39: Context rules exegesis.
01:11:41: Not, well, 14 times this word means this, so the 15th time it has to mean that.
01:11:47: No, that's not how it works, because that's not how words work even in our language.
01:11:52: If I'm in the middle of a fall day and I use the word cool 16 times to refer to the temperature, and then I walk in and Richard says, how's my goatee look? And I say, oh, it looks cool.
01:12:03: Does that mean it's cold? That's right.
01:12:05: At that moment, everything changed because the context changed.
01:12:08: So anytime I hear somebody say this, I say that's a logical exegetical fallacy.
01:12:13: Because this word is used over here to mean this, it has to mean the same thing over here.
01:12:17: That's an exegetical fallacy.
01:12:18: I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong.
01:12:20: I'm just saying it's, it's, it's.
01:12:24: You gotta take the context of the passage.
01:12:25: Yeah, this is not, this is not, this is not the way exegesis is to be done.
01:12:29: But again, I'm not saying, I'm not saying he's wrong.
01:12:32: I'm saying that this doesn't prove anything.
01:12:35: That's.
01:12:36: Luke 14, 26.
01:12:37: Jesus said, if anyone comes to me and does not hate, same word that Paul uses in Romans 9, 13, hate his own father and mother.
01:12:46: Okay, does God want you to actively, utterly despise your mother and father? No, because the Bible says to honor your mother and father.
01:12:53: Goes on to say, and wife, ladies, what do you think about that? If your husband's like, I hate you, because Jesus said to.
01:13:03: You're like, you need to do a Greek word study.
01:13:05: I think you need to be nice to me.
01:13:08: And children, do you think Jesus wants us to actively, utterly despise our kids? No, he loved kids.
01:13:15: He said that heaven was made for such as these.
01:13:17: He said that you must have a child like faith to enter into the kingdom of God.
01:13:23: And brothers and sisters.
01:13:25: And you're like, well, I could go either way on that.
01:13:26: But anyways, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
01:13:29: What Jesus is saying is, you need to prefer the relationship with me in first position over all of your other priorities.
01:13:38: The third.
01:13:40: Oh, and just quickly, I made a cut there.
01:13:42: You'll see it went to black and come back.
01:13:43: But if you're listening to this, you may not know.
01:13:45: I did cut out a small section, because I wanted to get, he goes off into an illustration, comes back.
01:13:50: So that's why there's a.
01:13:51: Possibility is that it's not even referring to individuals, but it's referring to nations.
01:13:55: And part of the context in that day when Malachi writes, and Paul in Romans 9.13 is quoting Malachi, is that in that day, the nations of Israel, which descended from Jacob, and Esau and the nation of Edom that followed in his wake, they were in a global war.
01:14:11: And the nation of Edom was trying to commit genocide and eradicate all of the Jewish people.
01:14:18: It was their version of Nazi Germany.
01:14:21: The spirit of Nazi Germany is the spirit of Satan and Antichrist.
01:14:24: And he is always seeking to destroy those who are bringing forth the message of Jesus to the nations.
01:14:31: And so ultimately in that day, God, they would say that God is dealing here with nations and he's looking down, and it would be the equivalent of God looking down on Nazi Germany, seeing physical descendants of Abraham being put in furnaces, and God saying, I hate that, and I'm against that, which is entirely true.
01:14:49: Okay, so let me, I'm gonna go first on this one, because I have a couple of things I want to say, I want to get your thoughts on these.
01:14:56: Number one, he gave the three different perspectives, which he said, the first one was Calvinists were saying God just hated Esau and loved Jacob.
01:15:04: Then he gives the illustration of the second one, which was that hate doesn't really mean hate, it just means to prioritize or to love less, and which is fine if that's how you want to take the word hate, and it still puts a different priority in God.
01:15:22: Jacob is the priority, Esau is not the priority.
01:15:25: But then he goes to this, the nations argument, which I'm actually not as harsh.
01:15:34: When someone says, well, I take Romans nine to be dealing with the nations of Israel, nation of Edom, in Romans nine, 13, because that is context of Malachi.
01:15:42: Somebody says that's it.
01:15:44: That's fine, but here's the issue I take with what he just said.
01:15:48: He says God hates Nazi Germany, I agree.
01:15:50: God hates what Edom did to Israel, I agree.
01:15:53: That's in the prophets, it talks about that, how Edom mistreated Israel, and that's true.
01:16:00: But if you stay in the context of Romans nine, this one, context is key.
01:16:04: It begins by saying, God, to show his purpose in election, had chosen before they had done anything good or bad, so that his purpose of election might stand.
01:16:19: Therefore, he said, Jacob, I loved Esau, I hated.
01:16:22: So you get this idea that God has chosen this before the action.
01:16:30: So I don't think that third one really weighs very well on what Paul is saying.
01:16:35: Now, you could say, well, that's what Malachi meant.
01:16:37: Yes, but Paul, under the superintending of the Holy Spirit, is using that passage in a way that relates to his argument, and his argument is God made this choice independent of what Jacob would do or Esau would do, and we could even go as far as to say what Israel would do, what Edom would do.
01:16:54: God had made that choice before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad.
01:17:01: So what he's doing in giving that third, and I'm not saying that's a position he's espousing, I'm saying here's why I wouldn't accept that position, because it robs the context.
01:17:12: Now, going back to the issue of hate, can hate mean to love less, as Jesus said? Hate not your father, mother.
01:17:21: Yes, hate can mean to love less in that context.
01:17:26: Is that what it means when it says, Jacob, I loved Esau, I've hated? Well, for the benefit of the doubt, let's just say it's possible.
01:17:35: If that's the possibility of what it means, it still demonstrates the elective purpose of God in choosing Jacob and not choosing Esau, there's still a predestination happening that's independent of their work, independent of what they've done, and if we wanna make it a more visceral hatred, and I know you wanna say something, you look like you're ready to go.
01:18:01: If we wanted to accept it as a more visceral hatred, because the Bible does say God hates all those who do wicked, and again, we see his expression of that hatred of evil in his justice in hell, in the lake of fire.
01:18:16: So we know that that is a real thing.
01:18:19: So I think this attempt to soften, an attempt to, well, God didn't really hate Esau in the same way as you might hate somebody who cuts you off in traffic or hurts you or something.
01:18:32: Yeah, God doesn't behave like we do, God doesn't think like we do, and God doesn't emote the way we do, but at the same time, in an attempt to soften it, I do think we're softening the idea that God has made an active choice of one, and in not choosing the other one, there is a result that has happened, and the result is this one who's not chosen is not under the love and grace and mercy and covenant of God's redemption.
01:19:00: Go ahead.
01:19:02: Well, again, what you were saying, context is key.
01:19:05: Romans 9 is God's sovereign purpose and election.
01:19:09: It's a salvific section, it's talking about salvation.
01:19:13: Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
01:19:15: Those who are saved by the grace of God who are in Christ Jesus are loved by God because he has sacrificed Christ for them.
01:19:22: Those who are not are not.
01:19:26: I would say he hates the reprobate in that sense.
01:19:30: That's why they go to hell, that's why their justice, God's wrath is poured out on them, okay? That's totally different than the context of what he did in Luke, and you also have it in Matthew and other places, the parallel context of, comparing your love for God, you need to hate your mother, hate your children, hate your father, hate those of your own household.
01:19:55: In a, I'm sorry, in a sense, we gotta get some padding right here.
01:19:59: In a sense, what the context of that is saying is, in comparison to your preference, as he put it, of your love for God should be so strong and so supreme and so prioritized that your love for your family should almost look like hate.
01:20:19: That's how deep the priority should be.
01:20:21: God is supreme, number one in your life, period, the end, he is your king, therefore, all other pale, so far in comparison, it should look, it almost should look like hate.
01:20:34: That doesn't mean you don't love them, because again, context, all throughout scripture, he's pointed out, we're to honor our parents, we're to love our children, we're to take care of them, the whole nine yards, you love the brethren.
01:20:46: I mean, you love other people, but in comparison to your love for Christ, it should almost look like hate.
01:20:51: That's why he says it that way.
01:20:53: But that doesn't mean you despise your mother and your father and your children.
01:20:56: But in the context of salvation, Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
01:21:02: I was looking up the word while on my phone, if you're watching this on video, you'll see me look at my phone while Driscoll's talking.
01:21:08: The word literally means to hate, despise, detest.
01:21:11: Okay, Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
01:21:14: That is a verse about salvation.
01:21:16: Those who fall under the category of Esau when it comes to salvation are gonna suffer the wrath and condemnation of God for eternity in hell.
01:21:26: It's pretty clear.
01:21:28: That's why you're saying context is king in this sense.
01:21:31: He's trying to take, like you said, that same word and plant it over here so that he can make his argument fit.
01:21:38: He's trying to make the scriptures fit with his interpretation of what it is, because he's trying to distance himself from Calvinism to a degree by re-explaining the word hate.
01:21:49: It is my contention that God doesn't love everyone the same and there are those that God hates.
01:21:55: That's my belief.
01:21:56: You may not agree with it.
01:21:58: The listener may not agree with it and that's fine.
01:22:00: We don't have to disfellowship over it, but I believe God hates the reprobate and he loves those he's redeemed.
01:22:06: That's just, but he gives common grace to all men.
01:22:09: Yeah, I would nuance this differently.
01:22:12: Okay, I may be being too strong with it.
01:22:14: No, it's not, well, love is verbal scripturally and this is how I've explained this and that's why I wanted to just clarify my position on this.
01:22:26: I think the act of God's giving of common grace to all men is an act of love that goes to all men.
01:22:34: Matthew chapter six, where it says, "'The rain falls on the just and the unjust,' I think that is an act of common grace that is received by all men and therefore that is an expression of love if love is verbal.
01:22:47: God is showing love to all men and this is why he says that this should lead us to repentance.
01:22:56: The Bible says, the mercy of God, the love of God, this should cause men to repent because they see the goodness and love that God has bestowed in that regard.
01:23:05: So I do take a position that God has shown love to every person in that.
01:23:14: And that's why even in John 3, 16, for those who might think a Calvinist can't deal with John 3, 16, when it says, for God so loved the world, I do think that there is a sense in which there is an omnibenevolence in God where he has done good to the whole world.
01:23:34: But getting back to John 3, 16, I don't think that's what that means because in that sense, it's referring to how God loves the world.
01:23:41: God loves the world this way, that he sent his only begotten son, that all the believing ones will have eternal life.
01:23:46: The ones who believe are the ones in view in John 3, 16.
01:23:49: And that gets back to what you said.
01:23:51: All the believing ones are believing ones because of God's grace and they have experienced a type of love from God that is unique to the elect and does not go to the reprobate.
01:24:04: Recently, Adam Page, shout out, always welcome on the program.
01:24:12: We've invited you several times and you just didn't have to show up.
01:24:15: Yeah, so I'll have to cut that section out and send it to him.
01:24:21: So Adam Page was on, he was on Twitter and I think he was on vacation and he posted something about God not loving everybody the same.
01:24:32: And this dude just went after him and he's like, Keith, he tagged me.
01:24:37: He's like, tag, you're it, I'm on vacation.
01:24:41: So I went in and I posted the video I have of the two people arguing and he totally dismissed my videos, of course, as many people do.
01:24:50: They're one minute videos intended to be funny.
01:24:52: They're not the most persuasive arguments in the world.
01:24:55: They're just meant to be funny.
01:24:57: But we went back and forth and the guy, I said, if you believe that God loves everybody the same, then you cannot interpret Romans 9.13 properly.
01:25:10: Because even if you do interpret hate to mean loveless, and as I said, I'm not saying that's the way you should, I'm saying, but even if you interpreted it as loveless, you have to come away with God having a particular love for the redeemed, the elect, which is different than the loving kindness, maybe that's the right word to say, the loving kindness that he shows in a universal sense.
01:25:33: So yes, I would just simply, I'm just further nuancing what you've already said and say, God is good to all men.
01:25:43: And all men should see that goodness as a reason to repent.
01:25:47: But because of their nature, because of their own desires, because they are children of Adam and desirous of the things that Adam gives them, which is rebellion and hell and those things, because of that, they don't see the goodness of God as a reason to repent, but rather as a reason to continue the rebellion.
01:26:04: He didn't give me enough, he didn't do enough.
01:26:06: I've heard the atheist, well, God needs to show himself to me before I'm gonna worship him.
01:26:11: And then another atheist said, well, even if I saw him, I wouldn't worship him.
01:26:14: So it's a never-ending cycle.
01:26:18: And I agree 100%, he does show loving kindness to all men.
01:26:22: I don't want people to think that, because I said I feel like God does hate the reprobate in a sense when it comes to salvation, that doesn't mean he doesn't demonstrate love to all men.
01:26:31: Because as Bodhi Buckham said, it's God's mercy and grace and love that woke you up this morning, because justice should have killed you last night.
01:26:40: Your heart is beating in your chest because God has determined it.
01:26:43: He is demonstrating love to you by letting you live in this moment, even though you are in rebellion against him in your sin.
01:26:51: So yes, there is that common grace and that love that he shows to all men, and some more than others.
01:26:57: I mean, I don't think Mark Zuckerberg is a believer.
01:26:59: He may be a robot, but he's not a believer.
01:27:02: But he's got more money than I do, and God's given him more than he's given me in the temporal sense.
01:27:09: You see what I'm saying? But in the salvific sense, I have Christ, which I have way more than Mark ever will have, unless he comes to faith in Christ.
01:27:17: So I don't want your listeners to think I just think God hates all people who don't believe in him.
01:27:21: No, no, no.
01:27:22: This is what we do.
01:27:24: We dig down, we challenge each other, we ask questions, we move through the ideas and the concepts.
01:27:30: And I may be wrong in making the conclusion that God hates the reprobate.
01:27:34: I'm just going off Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
01:27:37: Yeah, and there are, as I said, there's passages in the Proverbs and the Psalms where it talks about God hating not only the iniquity of the wicked, but hating the wicked.
01:27:45: And so we can see, but again, I think hatred like love is a verbal thing.
01:27:49: God shows that in his condemnation, God shows that in his damnation, God shows that in giving them over to a debased mind.
01:27:56: I think Romans one is an example of God demonstrating hatred towards wickedness and towards the wicked by giving them over to more wickedness.
01:28:04: That's an act of judgment.
01:28:06: And so, yeah, I mean, all of that, again, it just within the context.
01:28:10: Well, again, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed this going over of this sermon by Martin Driscoll.
01:28:16: I realize he's not super relevant anymore.
01:28:19: He essentially is a pastor of a large church in Arizona.
01:28:23: He's not the cultural touchstone or the reformed magnet for attention that he was maybe 15 years ago.
01:28:30: But we saw this sermon, we thought it was interesting to us and thought it might be interesting to you.
01:28:35: So Muffin Man, I wanna thank you for being here.
01:28:39: The- The Muffin Man.
01:28:41: The Muffin Man, Uncle Rich, I wanna thank you for being here.
01:28:44: Very soon, we're gonna try to put together an opportunity to have all four of the CWAC regulars, because it's you, it's Jake Corn, it's Matthew Henson.
01:28:52: We're trying to get it set up where we can all be together and do a podcast.
01:28:57: So if you have something that you would like for us to address as a group, or if you'd like for Uncle Rich and I to go over something on a show like this, please send it to calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.
01:29:09: Follow me on Twitter at your Calvinist.
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01:29:21: I wanna thank you guys for listening and watching those short videos that I've been putting up, some of them theological, some of them humorous, and we're pushing a million views.
01:29:29: Help us get over that million view mark, and I would appreciate that as well.
01:29:32: Thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.
01:29:34: My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.
01:29:37: May God bless you.