Where Does Mark Driscoll Land Regarding Calvinism?

Though no longer a cultural touchstone in the reformed community, Mark Driscoll is still making the rounds on the Internet. And today, Uncle Rich and I are going to be looking at a sermon he preached about a year ago on the subject of predestination.

This is Conversations with a Calvinist, and it begins right now. Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist. And joining me again is one of the crew, one of the CWAC regulars, Uncle Rich the Muffin Man.

Good to see you today, my friend. Good to see you, Bob. Thank you. All right. Glad you're here. I always enjoy coming to the studio with you. And I want to thank you this week, because you are not only coming in to do a podcast with me, but you're also going to be helping me set up for this year's annual 10-day event at the Callahan Fair.

If you're going to be at the fair, come and see us at the Sovereign Grace Family Church booth, where we will be handing out gospel tracks, wristbands, and candy to the kids as they walk by, telling everybody about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Looking forward to 10 days of evangelism and ministry at the Callahan Fair. Well, today we're going to be talking about a man who is, as I said, no longer a cultural touchstone in the Reformed community, but was at one time at least considered to be someone that was part of the movement of what some people call New Calvinism, or the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement.

He was the founder of the Acts 29 Network, or one of the founders of the Acts 29 Network, which was a church-planting network, many of those churches being at least quasi-Reformed in their theology.

And the man's name is Mark Driscoll. Mark Driscoll is an American evangelical pastor. He founded Mars Hill Church in Seattle, until later he was removed over some controversial issues. And he is now the senior and founding pastor at Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona, which he founded back in 2016.

As I said, in 1998, he and David Nicholas founded the Acts 29 Network, and he also was the subject of a recent, very popular podcast that came out that was entitled The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Did you hear The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill?

I did not. This was put out by Christianity Today. It was a long-form journalism. I listened to it. It was hour-long shows, and it went on for weeks at a time, telling the story of how he rose to popularity, and then ultimately how the church began to experience problems, and then ultimately how he was, I guess you would say, defrocked.

The story is long and convoluted. If you want to hear that story, I do recommend listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. But I want to add this caveat. The people who put together The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, having listened to it, I really feel like they had their own agenda, and at a certain point in that particular podcast, they began to bring in women pastors, and they began to and I say women pastors.

I don't believe that women are legitimate pastors, but women who call themselves pastors. Many of them began to challenge Mark Driscoll on his masculinity and how he was all of these different things, and there was a lot in that.

Again, I'll leave it to the listener to decide if you want to go and hear what all they had to say. I didn't agree with everything they said. I did agree with some of it, but obviously when the women pastors started to come in, I felt like it really took a hard turn that I wasn't real comfortable with.

And like I said, if you're interested in Driscoll's history, you can go there. Another thing that Driscoll did a few years ago is he came out opposing Calvinism. He did this on a podcast where he says Calvinism is garbage and that all five points of Calvinism are unbiblical.

Now in that podcast, or if you want to listen to that podcast, you can find it. Just look up Mark Driscoll, Calvinism is Garbage. But if you want to hear a review of that, I want to recommend Chris Williams, KW True on YouTube.

He's a friend of the show. He's been on this show before. Chris Williams' podcast, he actually, a couple of years ago, he did a review of that podcast where he listened to what he had to say, because again, when he says Calvinism is garbage, that sends up red flags in the reform community of what is he saying, especially a guy who seemingly once espoused it and now is saying that it's garbage.

And what was interesting in that particular conversation, as I listened to it, I listened to Chris's review of it. And in that conversation, he actually did say, he said, I used to be in the reform community and now I find myself more in the charismatic community.

So that's words that came out of his own mouth. That's not me putting words in his mouth. He said, I used to be this and now I'm this. And I used to be a Calvin. But then he said, right, the very next thing out of his mouth, but my theology has never changed.

He said, my theology has always been the same, but I used to be in the Calvinism camp. Now I'm in the charismatic camp. And I do know that there are those who would call themselves Calvinist and charismatic.

So I guess it's possible to be both. Guys like Wayne Grudem would say that they're continuationists and Calvinist. But saying that he's never changed is, I think, is a little disingenuous. There are some things that seem to have changed, but again, I don't know him super well.

I do know that when he, when the things happened at Mars Hill, one of the things that I remember seeing is a picture of him and Stephen Furtick. So Stephen Furtick, we know, has a long history of being fairly dismissed by the Reformed community as somebody whose teaching is not very deep and not very solid.

In fact, there are some videos out there that would almost speak to the fact that he actually preaches heretical things. So having said all that, that's the community that now Driscoll is sort of aligning himself with, and I'm sure you and I both have opinions on him as a person, as a pastor, but that's not what we're here to talk about today.

I'm just, I'm giving you all this as a setup. What we're going to do today is we want to actually review a recent, well, I say recent, it's a year old, but we want to review a sermon on the subject of predestination, which was given by Driscoll at his now church, the Trinity Church in Scottsdale, and we have several clips from this sermon that we're going to play.

We're going to talk about each of these clips and why we think it matters. We can't listen to the whole sermon. The whole sermon is too long for us to listen to the whole thing, but we have eight different clips that we're going to look at.

Again, and I want to say this, and I think you would agree, I know I'm doing all the talking now. You're going to jump in soon. Got to get close to that microphone if we're going to talk, though. This is not an overall criticism.

I'm not going to say everything he says is wrong. In fact, I do think he says some right things in this sermon. I think he says some very true things in this sermon, but there are other things that kind of cause my ears to go, hmm, I would nuance that different, or I would say that different, or you're not being totally genuine to the positions that you're talking about.

The first thing that got our attention, this is what caused Rich was the one who recommended this, so Uncle Rich, thank you for that. The thing that got our attention was when he gives the first illustration of the sermon.

It's an illustration about his wife. This is where we're going to begin. We're going to start out by listening to this opening illustration. This is him opening a sermon on Romans 9 and the subject of predestination.

Predestination, Pursuit, and the Marriage Illustration

All right, if you've got a Bible, go to Romans chapter 9. We're studying the book of Romans for a very long time. This is going to be a great sermon. You're going to enjoy this. This is going to be four or five of the greatest hours of your life.

If you've got a Bible, go to Romans chapter 9, and we're looking at our relationship with God, and how does it start, and when does it start, and who is the one who starts it? I'll start with a story.

This was a big week for us. It was 33 years ago this week that I took my now wife, Grace, on our very first date, 33 years ago. How did we enter into relationship? Well, thank you for asking. The way it worked was this.

I knew about Grace before she knew about me. I liked Grace before she liked me. I had a heart that was open toward Grace before her heart was open toward me. So what did I do? I architected circumstances so that I could predestine her.

That was what I was doing. I wanted her to respond to my love by loving me, and her respond to my pursuit by pursuing me. So I set everything up so that I could enter into this hopeful, loving relationship with Grace.

We were 17 years of age in high school at the time, so first date was very, very nervous, and picked her up and took her out to Red Robin because I'm fancy. And we were 17, so I was like, all the fries you want to eat are on me.

So we had Red Robin, and then we got to know each other a little bit, but I already knew what my heart was toward her, and I needed her to get to know me, and then her heart opened toward me. And we got to know each other, and over the course of a few weeks, I then bought her a jewelry box.

Again, we're 17 years of age in high school. She's like, what's that for? I said, that's for the engagement ring when I propose to you, and you accept my agreement to be my wife. So that's either a stalker or a guy who knows what he wants, or both.

And so you just don't know, so you give it a little time. So what I wanted to do was I wanted to have a relationship with her, and I had a destiny that I was working toward for this loving relationship.

Let me use that as a simple analogy, that that's how God has a relationship with us. The Bible says that Jesus is like a groom. The church, his people are like a beloved bride. And so far as this relationship goes, Jesus initiates, we respond.

Jesus pursues, and then we respond. Jesus loves, and we respond that he is the leader, and we are the follower, and this is how we enter into relationship with God. Theologically, theos means God, and logos means study.

So the study of God. Theologically, the category this is under is something called predestination. That's what we find in Romans 9 and 10. That's the big idea, that God has a destiny that is predetermined, and he is pursuing that destiny for you, and that relationship with you.

All right, so right away, that was a lot. And just so you know, listener, if you're listening to this, I'm playing extended clips because I want you to get an idea of this sermon. I don't want to just play 30 seconds or something, or five seconds or something.

There are going to be a few times where I do play some short stuff. But in general, again, not trying to bash. All the things we might think about Mark Driscoll, I want to deal with what he's saying. And right away, this was what caused you to call me and say, hey, we got to review this.

So tell me what it was that viscerally caused you hearing that illustration to say, we got to deal with this.

Well, the analogy immediately breaks down in the sense of, OK, he's saying that he predestined his wife to be his wife because he was pursuing her, and he was trying to cause her to want to have a relationship with him.

OK, that breaks down immediately in a sense of, one, and he'll affirm this later in the sermon, Romans 3, that we don't have the ability to choose God. So she had the ability to say yes or say no to Mark Driscoll.

We don't have the ability. He was not irresistible. Right. We don't have the ability in our sinful state and nature to even come close to thinking about choosing God until he opens our eyes of faith, regenerates us to where we can then, by faith, repent and believe.

That's why he had to predestine those who he would save because had he not chosen us, no one would ever come to him. The whole thing breaks down with this analogy because it makes it sound like if God pursues you, he'll make it appealing enough that you will naturally want him.

And that's not how it works. That's not predestination. God predestined those whom he would save by choosing them before the foundation of the world because had he not done so, there was nothing he would do that would make them want to choose him.

And I'll stop tapping the table. Yeah, I was going to say, somebody mentioned that on the last show that they could hear the tapping on the table, so. But that was the first thing.

That analogy falls apart immediately if you truly understand predestination. But he's trying to reframe it to where he can distance himself from Calvinism because, as he said in that other podcast, Calvinism is garbage.

Yeah. So he's trying to still hold on to the terms of Scripture while distancing himself from the Calvinist and Reformed doctrine.

Yeah, and I would say this. When we teach on the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the things that I had Dr. Edward Alcor on last week or two weeks ago, and one of the things that he mentioned was, you know, when we talk about the doctrine of the Trinity, we have to be careful not to use analogies because all analogies will not only break down, but will lead us into wrong thinking.

So if we think of God as a father, and I'm a father, a husband, and a son, so God can be father, son, and spirit, that you end up with a modalism at that point, or some other false view. And I think that's what we have here.

I think, again, and I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I know you do, too. I mean, we're not just here to cut people off at the knees. And in no way am I saying necessarily that Driscoll's a false teacher or anything like that.

I don't know him enough to know his personal life. I know the things that came out about him were bad. Apparently, he's had some form of repentance. I don't know. So, again, this is nothing personal. This is all about the issues of the sermon.

I think when you make an illustration, you have to. The thing that he didn't say, and I wish he would have, is that all illustrations break down, and this illustration breaks down at the point where

Because he affirms later that we don't have the ability to choose without God working on our heart. So it's not that he doesn't know it, and it's not that he doesn't affirm it, but he had this really great idea, well, I pursued my wife before she pursued me.

If that's all he said, that would have been enough. If he would have said God pursues us and gives us the ability to pursue him, that may have been okay. But he, like you said, he makes it her He can't change his wife's heart.

God is the one who can change the leopard spots. He can change the Ethiopian skin. He can change the heart of man, but the illustration certainly makes it as if, at any point, the wife could have And this is where

Because I've heard other people make this illustration. They'll say, well, God predestines us in the same way that I predestine that my kids are going to go to school today because I know getting up, they were going to go to school because I wasn't going to let them stay home.

I predestined they were going to I've heard that illustration, and the answer to that is, well, no, because on the way to school, you could get into a car accident. Your tire could blow. You could go start the car and the engine be dead.

There's all kinds of things. There's all kinds of reasons why you lack the power and the ability to really do any form of predestination that seems like what God does, and so I think the illustration immediately breaks down.

I think But I agree with you, and this is so rare. No, I'm just kidding. No, I agree with you that he's trying to distance himself from the heart, the logical position of Calvinism, which, again, he thinks is garbage, and later he will say he disagrees with Calvinism.

We're going to listen to that clip, but it is this sort of He's softening it. He's giving it a playful, you know, I was pursuing my wife at Red Robin, and we ate French fries. That's a playful way of looking at it, so he's trying to couch it in these easy terms, but what he's doing is he's giving an illustration up front that doesn't comport with what he's going to teach later, and so it's just

I think it's unhelpful. I think without this illustration, it would have been a better sermon, because from here on, at least with the middle portion of the sermon, we saw what Abraham and God, choosing Abraham and God doing that unilaterally.

That part's fairly consistent. I mean, that part's good, but this illustration at the front really front-loads the sermon in a negative way.

Right, and the problem is that he, immediately after the illustration, he says, this is how God pursues us. Yes, and that He equates it equally, and that's not how the Bible No, not at all. Demonstrates.

So here's the next clip. This is He uses an illustration that's similar to one that I've used before, so I want to throw this out. This is actually When I say it's a good illustration, it's not good, because I've used it, but this illustration is an illustration of voting and the fact that we tend to want to vote and God doesn't need our vote, and I just wanted to say, so this is an example of him being more consistent with at least how we would understand God working unilaterally.

We think, no, no, no, we should vote. We should get the vote. My question is, how's that going? How's that going? Right? How many of you are just loving the results of all How many of you, first of all, love the voting process?

All the polls, the candidates, the process, the media, the riots? How many of you love that? And then once the results are decided, how many of you are really happy with what we now have? Wouldn't it be better if God just decided everything?

You know what? In heaven, God's going to decide everything. In heaven, you won't need to register to vote. There'll just be one guy who votes. His name is Jesus, and he won't make things better. He'll make everything perfect.

The point is that the best person to make the big decisions is God. And if God is good, then the decisions I clicked off of a little too If God is good, his decisions are perfect, basically what he said.

There's only one second left in that, and I just happened to bump the thing. Very professional podcast here, always the top notch of professional technicality, so apologize for cutting him off there. But we get the point, and that is, I've said this many times.

There's an old thing I would sometimes hear in Baptist churches. God voted for you, the devil voted against you, and you decide by the tying vote. And he's making the point that's not the case. So in that sense, I would agree with what he just said.

I just think it goes against his initial illustration, because in his initial illustration, his wife had a vote. She could have voted down the Driscoll. She could have pulled her lever and had a hanging chad.

She could have had all kinds of stuff.

The minute he popped up with that, I'm giving you this box that has a wedding ring in it, because one day you're gonna be my wife. Wait a minute, you're crazy, and you need to go away from me. She could have easily shot that down.

So yes, she had a vote, but according to him now, we're not supposed to have a vote.

You don't have a vote. Yeah, so a little inconsistency there. Clip three, he's gonna talk about how the building that they are in, and if this story is accurate to the way he tells it, it is an amazing story.

And when I said that, I am not in any way accusing him of being a liar. Don't get me wrong. But I do know how easy it is to exaggerate, and men and women have the tendency to say things that are sometimes a little, I caught a fish, you're a fisherman.

The fish was whatever. And the way he tells the story is very fantastic, if it happened the way, but he equates this to predestination, and I really think this is a, I think this is showing his charismatic bent, because he, well, just listen.

And so let me just tell you how God predestined how we got to this point. We moved here five years ago, and at that time, we were looking at planting a church, and our family thought about planting, and we prayed about it.

And some of you probably don't know this story. I'll tell you briefly. I went and met with Pastor Jimmy Evans, one of our overseers, one of our pastors, and he said, don't rent a building. You're gonna buy a building.

It'll be off the 101. It'll seat 800. You'll be able to purchase. It'll be grandfathered as a church, and God's gonna provide that for you. Very specific. I said, 800. That's very specific. I came back.

I asked the realtor. I said, okay, where's that building that was prophesied? Like, it doesn't exist. I asked Jimmy, Pastor Jimmy, where is it? He's like, it's coming, just wait. Okay, okay. Next thing I know, this building comes available.

We were able to purchase it before we had people. So thank you for coming. And it was the, we got the keys to the building on the 50th anniversary of the grand opening to the day. This place opened on Easter, 1966.

We had our first informational meeting, Easter, 2016. And then it was the following Easter, we finally had our full Easter service. We set up every single chair in this room. There were 793. And I was like, well, Jimmy was close.

And then we looked in the sound booth, and there, I kid you not, seven seats. We sat exactly 800 seats in a church off the 101 that was grandfathered in, that we purchased, that God had prepared for us.

Okay, so this is his explanation of how he got the building. Again, not calling into question, it's a great story. I mean, if that is exactly how it worked out, that's interesting. But what he is doing, and this is why I played this clip, is he's going to begin equating predestination with the idea of destiny.

And we do know that destiny is part of the word predestination. Predestination comes from the Greek word, prohorizo. Prohorizo is where we get the word horizon. It's the idea of the furthest point you can see, that end, so the idea of an end point.

And so if you can see the horizon, that's where you're going, and therefore, predestination is the determining of where you're going before you go, right? So the idea of destiny is in that, the idea of predestination.

And so when he says, when the Bible says we're predestined, it's usually things like predestined being conformed to the image of Christ, you know, predestined. It's referring to our destiny in Christ, being in him, being in heaven, those things.

But he is now equating this to things that happen in time, things like getting a building, and he's gonna go on to talk about other things, money's raised, and he does do like a 10-minute pitch in the middle of the sermon.

Did you hear, you heard that part. You heard the whole sermon. There's like a 10-minute pitch about how much money they've raised, and they've got this many hundreds of thousands and whatever, and how they needed a million dollars, and they got it in two weeks or whatever.

And that's fine, again, all probably true. He has a popular voice. People like to listen to him. He's charismatic in his speaking. I'm sure he gets a lot of followers, a lot of money. So I have no problem thinking he could raise a million dollars or whatever it is that he raised.

But the idea of destiny, in Calvinistic conversation, we talk about those things more in the line of the idea of providence, God working out his plan in time toward the destiny of the elect, which is to be with Christ, to be conformed to the image of Christ, those things.

So there is a sense in which predestination and providence are intertwined theologically in the idea. But he's focusing on this, he's in the middle of the sermon, he's really stopped talking about what the end of the argument is, and that is whether or not this affects who's going to heaven.

But he starts talking about how this affects things in your life. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying this is where he has sort of gone away from maybe the initial part of the conversation, and now it's how things are working out in life.

So, make sense? Yes, and I think that aligns well with, this is where he's connecting it with the original illustration. Yeah, yeah. Everything worked out with his wife because it was destined to be. So this, and I think you're right with providence, all things work together for good with those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

Everything that happens in our life happens as God has ordained for it to happen. So to make the, he can make the argument, this is how God ordained for this to happen. This was supposed to go down exactly how it went down.

Now we have no way of proving if it went down exactly how it, because we don't have all the details.

Yeah, and he's almost speaking as like this guy, Pastor Jimmy, almost prophesied.

That's the problem I got with it, is making some kind of prophetic statement. That's where I get a little. Yeah. And there's a couple of times here where he talks about where the Lord told him. And that's, but that's the charismatic.

But again, he said he's charismatic. So, you know, we. That's part of that theological position. And this next one goes with that.

So I'm gonna, hanging on those words, I'm gonna just play, this is only an 18 second clip. Because again, God having a destiny for you is a really exciting thing to pursue, not something to just argue about.

Now, I clipped out this 18 second because he said, God having a destiny for you. And again, now we've sort of gone away from the idea of the destiny being heaven. And we've started talking about a destiny in the life.

And this, again, charismatic folks tend to be very focused on what God's gonna do in the here and now. And one of the things that tends to be, and this is not, please don't think I'm painting with a broad brush.

All charismatic's not all the same. Charismaticism is a very large swath of Christianity. And I'm not saying at all that they're not Christians, but within charismatic circles, there tend to be those, especially those who tend towards health and wealth, which is a false gospel.

So there's danger in this. They tend to make everything about the here and now. Again, buildings, money, all these things. And what it is, what's happening, at least what I see is happening, is in this portion of the sermon, he's saying, you need to be excited about predestination because God has destined something great for you.

And that almost, to me, could be something that I would hear from Paula White, or from, what's his name, Joel Osteen, or somebody, you know, God's destiny for you is this 800-seat building, or this, you know, the wonderful house, or the great parking spot, or whatever.

What if God has destined, though, and just go with me for a moment. What if God has destined that you are going to be a missionary who is unknown, underfunded, and who is going to die in the furthest reaches of the Indonesian jungle at the hands of people who didn't want to hear your message, and so they gave you a death sentence, and you died in that situation?

And don't think that that doesn't happen. That happens to missionaries a lot. So what if that's the destiny that God has prepared for you? And if so, does that comport with what he, because again, listen again to what he just said.

Because again, God having a destiny for you is a really exciting thing to pursue, not something to just argue about. It's a really exciting thing to pursue, okay, but that's assuming that it's an 800-seat auditorium or something like that.

Now, you pulled up something, I guess? Well, he's framing it as like God's destiny is always gonna be some exciting, positive experience is the way he's framing it, because everything he said was at this point, his wife, with his wife, and with the building, and with all this other stuff.

But what you're talking about is, especially talking about being destined to go to Uganda and die for the cause of the faith. I mean, Jim Elliot story, you know? Yeah, things like that. So I'm reminded of Ephesians 2, eight through 10, and verse 10's the important part, but I'll, concerning this, all of it's important, but I'll start in verse eight, for by grace you've been saved through faith, not of yourselves, as a gift of God, not a result of works that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God, what, prepared beforehand so that we should walk in them.

So there's an idea of, yes, there is a destiny, in a sense of, there are good works that you are to perform, but some people's good works that they're predestined to perform in the name of Christ are just what you're talking about.

Going somewhere, being completely cut off from everyone, underfunded, and you're just there for the sake of the gospel, and the minute you open your mouth, you're killed. Yeah. Oil and oil, sawn in two, crucified upside down.

Their destiny wasn't an 800 seat building in all this positivity he's talking about. And I don't necessarily, I mean, they would, all those people would say that when you get to heaven and you talk to them, they would say, yes, I died for the cause of Christ, and that was great.

They died for their king. But while they're going through it, it wasn't necessarily a pleasant experience.

You know what I'm saying? And the idea of being exciting. Excited about it.

Your destiny is exciting. I would imagine as Peter's getting ready to be crucified upside down, he's not excited about it. You know, he knows what's coming, but he's in the back of his mind keeping that thought that Paul put out there that this slight momentary affliction is preparing for me an eternal way to glory.

When I close my eyes, and finally in this life, when this kills me, I'm off to better things. But he's framing, and he's putting it all together with salvation, and he's conflating stuff that he shouldn't be doing.

It's kind of irritating, but. No, I agree. My wife is, she loves to read, and she reads biographies a lot. She recently read a biography of George Mueller. She wants to come on the show and talk about it, so be looking forward to that one.

But, you know, hearing of his life. And she'll often read these things, and we'll talk about them, and she'll learn new things and share with me. And just the life that he lived was one, you know, where miracles happened.

You know, they would need food, and then they would show up, and somebody would show up with a dozen eggs or something to feed them, or a case of milk that they, you know, I just knew you needed this, Pastor Mueller, or whatever.

I mean, his life was a life of miracles, but it was literally living hand-to-mouth every day. It wasn't, you know, and so.

Well, don't you have a fella, I can't remember his name. He's got like six kids, seven kids. He's been here before and preached a couple times, went overseas, and I don't know, he's had a lot of difficulty, and I can't think of his name.

Are you thinking of Scott Phillips, the missionary? You're right, that's what I'm saying.

I mean, you've talked about him having some serious situations happen.

And miraculous things have occurred, and this is why I'm not opposed to the miraculous. I see things that Scott tells me about that are no short of only God could have orchestrated these things. But this is a guy who's not, again, you know, he's not running crusades of, you know, half-hearted American Christians through a, you know, through a tent revival.

He's going to the deepest, darkest heart of a place. He was the first white man they'd ever seen.

And he's taken his wife and several children. Yeah, he's got seven kids. Right, into that environment, right.

Yeah, and by the way, again, if you're a listener and you are looking to support a missionary effort and you don't know about Scott Phillips, look up the Scott Phillips and the Dow tribe, D-A-O, which stands for Desiring Advancement Overseas, is what D-A-O stands for, but it refers also to the Dow tribe, which is the tribe that he ministers to.

Look him up and find out information about him because it's nothing short of miraculous. And if you are one who, I've always said, if you can't be, if you cannot be a missionary, you can support a missionary.

And you can be holding the rope for those who are going. And that's what we see ourselves doing with him.

Right, and I'll just bring him up because his, His destiny. His destiny ain't a bed of roses.

That's right, that's right. All right, so let's, this next one, I'm almost tempted to skip it because of time, but I'll let it play. This is, the only reason I put this in here was I felt like Driscoll was trying to be somewhat of a comedian.

He's talking, nothing he says is necessarily wrong, but I wanted to play this just to sort of show his sort of cavalier attitude. And I'm not one, you know, every once in a while I'll say something in the pulpit that's funny, but there's something about being funny and then there's something about trying to be a comedian.