Odd Comments

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Technical Difficulties and the Aftermath of the Ehrman Debate

Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning back from Dallas had a great opportunity there to Speak with Steve Lawson at Countryside Bible Church. I was a little embarrassed when I got there because I walked in the offices and I looked around I said I've been here before haven't I?

Yep seven years ago, okay. All right. Well, you can tell you've been you've been around a bit when you seven years ago, how many places have you been since then, you know, and it's sort of hard to keep track, but They did a great job there Pastor Pennington who wasn't there before and I think that's one of the reasons it didn't necessarily click with me.

Is that sometimes the pastor's name? You know, I associate with the church and he wasn't there when I was there in 2002. In fact, they didn't have a pastor at that time, which is one of the reasons I was there actually Helped to fill in during that period of time with that one weekend and my biggest remembrance was that dr S Lewis Johnson was in the Congregation that morning that I preached which you know puts a little pressure on you while you're preaching, but that's okay.

And so it was great to meet with the folks. We had a good time. I posted two of the presentations I made on Sola Fide on my YouTube page and on the blog. I didn't. Yes, actually Sunday morning. I did two presentations on Islam back-to-back.

They have two services and That if you go to church where they do two services you need to realize that's very tiring. For the staff everybody involved, but especially the preacher. It's That's if they really put themselves into it.

That's that's very very challenging. There's no two ways about it. And the biggest challenge for me is I Once preached a church that did three services. The third service was a mess for me. Because it was in two times I can sort of remember what illustrations I've used.

You know things you get to the third one and you're so tired. You just can't keep keep track of things so Everybody's saying dead air at the moment. Yeah, everybody's saying we be gone. So I have no idea what's what's happened there, but we will let the technical gurus See if we can figure that out.

Interestingly Enough. I just saw algo and channel tell me that I lectured on new Perspectivism the first time I was at Countryside Bible Church. I Don't remember that at all. But if that's true, then that's absolutely frightening that That he would know that that's that's just I Don't know.

That's just scary to me it truly is so. Looks like we hopefully are recording all this anyways, so that it'll be on the Podcast what sounds like we're having some difficulties with with our feed right now.

I have no earthly idea why but Maybe we've got a net Disturbance in our area. You've got says it says it's working, huh? Okay. Well, we'll just keep trying and and hopefully it'll all work out over time.

I guess with the first question On the screen. I might as well go with what I have about three different subjects here presented in front of me and I Didn't really know what you're to go in but since the phone call topic is on this we'll do this and then take the phone call.

Don't want to spend the whole hour on the text issues again since we've done that for a couple of weeks now I realize it's a extremely important issue, but there are other things to be talking about as well.

But I was I've cannot help but notice and shake my head at the kind of behavior and and the like that Has resulted from the ermine debate. I did have a brother come up to me after my Islam presentation Sunday morning at the church.

So if you're gonna love this. And by the way, we were sent a full transcription of the ermine debate today. And so I want to get that up. I sent it to rich and I want to make that available because the Fellow had said he couldn't believe how much it helped to have the written word as he was listening.

To follow especially a difficult debate like this. So someone has been kind enough to transcribe the whole thing and so we'll See if we can't attach that since we're already attaching a AVI file or mp4 or whatever.

It was we put the format we put in. You can get the transcription as well. So hopefully that'll be helpful to people too. But the the responses this fellow came up to me. Well after I gave my Islam presentation, he gave me a puzzle box it's a box with a puzzle in it and he made it himself and the puzzles of biblical manuscripts.

But the front says the thousand piece biblical manuscript puzzle with extra pieces added in. So if you've listened to the debate, you know exactly what he was talking about. And I guess he found that particular illustration rather useful so I Did find that rather Intriguing that that was was going on.

Could I be causing a problem because I'm plugged into the the net Hardwired with my Mac over here because I wasn't getting proper wireless connection. I can't see how that would do anything, but it does seem that we are having Issues with all the net because even the IRC channel is lagging and then catching up lying and catching up and So that would seem to indicate an issue with the the input and output of the the internet here locally.

Maybe maybe I don't know it's possibility, but I'll just have to try to ignore that and stick with the stick with the program here and See how the how it's how it's working. I mean some people are still getting it.

So we're getting something out there, but evidently there's some kind of you know. We did have storms here. Yeah, I used to be a big issue when we'd have storms. I remember we're at the house. When it would rain we'd have all sorts of internet issues.

We haven't had that problem down here, but Haven't had a whole lot of rain for a number of months either. So and we did have some work done on the phone lines since since last rainstorm, so We'll see who knows.

You never know these things anyhow. The reaction to the urban debate. The what was it debunking Christianity actually had semi nice things to say About the urban debate, but who who has been just absolutely rapacious.

It's it's been folks who are on the King James only or TR only side of things. Which I've people ask me who are the nastiest people in their behavior toward you and They're expecting me to say Mormons or Muslims or atheists.

No, no King James only folks take the cake of all the groups I've ever dealt with the people that are consistently the most the nastiest. Most most just just well, I'll just stick with nasty for now our King James only folks.

It's just it's just been that way since 1995 it is it is truly an amazing thing to observe and Last week I made mention of a comment That I had posted on on my blog from a guy by the name of Kent Brandenburg, I believe is his name and This is this is what he said.

He said quote in fairness to ermine even though I hate the work that he does. He has a higher standard for text that comes from God than white does. White acts like any of us should expect errors. I think it is whites Calvinism God wanted errors in the text because of the greater good there would be something like that now as I documented a long time ago the King James only folks agree with Bart Ehrman on the Fundamental claim that if God inspired it there would be no textual variation.

They agree that's their position. Now they then glom on to a 17th century Anglican translation and Ignore its translation errors ignore its translators. Ignore the history ignore the text is based upon ignore the revisions.

They just ignore all that because they agree with Bart Ehrman that if it was Originally inspired then you shouldn't have any textual variance. You need to have that one text and that's the same view that the Muslims have the Quran many of them.

And so on so forth. We've talked about that. But what what is this? Whites Calvinism God wanted errors in the text because of the greater good there would be something like that. I'm quoting that I Identified last week.

I identified that as not only as a lie because it is. But I identified it as as coming from a bigoted attitude. It's a bigotry toward reformed theology bigotry toward myself and People just went nuts.

Well, what is bigotry? Is it is it not an irrational prejudice? Can any rational person? Substantiate what mr. Brandenburg said? Well, the answer is no, but you can see how much the modern Postmodernism of our day has influenced even King James only advocates and others because if you identify something that is clearly Flowing not from any type of rational thought but from a a deep bigotry toward a position a bias a prejudice that goes beyond Rationality if you identify that then you're somehow hateful and nasty and and so on so forth.

So I have to Apologize to the folks at the Puritan board Because I went and mentioned them and I must realize that when I if I mention anything like that Then bunches of my my wonderful fans Will come rolling over to to they'll you know, even if they've ever been there before they'll Google it.

And so some fellow from Singapore a real nice guy Just just just spit and fire showed up on the Puritan board and Started just popping off all sorts of stuff. But one of the things he said And I pulled up this morning was try and avoid pejorative terms like extremists to describe other confessional brethren I know the unedifying and disgraceful ad hominem comments James White made about Kent Brandenburg now as We have noted ad hominem is the most abused term in in all of Latin phraseology today.

Because the only way I could have made an argument against Mr. Brandenburg using ad hominem would have been to say mr. Brandenburg is wrong because His nose is big or he's wrong because of this or he's wrong because of that and those Arguments would have been against him as a person I wasn't even arguing whether he's right or wrong because it was so obvious that that wasn't even relevant I was simply pointing out the man's behavior.

That's not ad hominem. So let's at least try to learn to use the phrase, right? Okay, I mean I realize it's just constant out there, but again And unedifying and disgraceful ad hominem comments James White made against about Kent Brandenburg in contrast to his sycophantic approach to the apostate Ehrman oh Yeah, I yeah, that's how I've been approaching Bart Ehrman.

Yeah, I Yeah, how do you how do you even reason? How do you even reason with folks? It's just it absolutely absolutely amazing. I'm watching a rich going crazy near the room clearly Nothing. Nothing is working.

Right is the server just not working, right? Is it just bouncing around? You know the the servers the servers. It's the server. Is it us? Can you tell as?

Best I can tell it's the internet itself. You know itself. Yeah, we seem to be hitting check holes. So we feed for a little bit and Then suddenly we hit a bump and Registers an error and then connects right back up and here we go again.

And so all of our listeners are logging on right back on. Right now interesting and we'll probably go for another six minutes and then bounce again, huh?

Well, it's a little windy outside. But it's been worse. It's the first time this has happened and not yeah like this. So I you know.

I'm kind of wondering if I got. Got in the car drove around the neighborhood. See some fellow with one of those funny hats and umbrellas sitting in a corner playing playing playing with working with the phone lines.

It's possible. Anyway, I'll just keep trying. That's best we can do. Anyhow folks living in third world countries are going you get six minutes of uninterrupted Internet. Wow, you guys are lucky. So hey, you know, it's we could be in Carlos position, you know.

We could have the frozen squirrels of Canada. So anyhow, I I found I found that response rather odd to observe but what has been very heartening is to hear from the folks who have listened carefully to the debate and They understand they understand why I did what I did.

They understand The things that the Bart Ehrman said they understand that the leading Intellectual skeptic of our day in textual the textual critical area and who's trying to become the leading intellectual skeptic in all areas did a debate where a Believer did not have to compromise his position one bit and stood toe-to-toe with him and if he's right that shouldn't have been able to even take place, but it did and they see that and they also see the inconsistencies in the responses that he offers and the radical skepticism that simply doesn't make any sense, so I'm glad that there are people who are listening carefully and understand that and that's that's exciting and that's the people that we That we debate for and so I'm excited about that.

A Question on Byzantine Priority and Textual Criticism

So before we go on to the next area of discussion, which will include some clips from Catholic answers live. Finally, let's go ahead and take a phone call. I hope the phone lines work as well. And let's talk with Matt.

Hi, Matt.

Hello, Matt, hi, dr. White. It's a privilege to talk to you today. Yes, sir I've got a question. This airmen debate has really got me back into textual criticism. And I've wanted to smooth out some areas that I've really had a good answer for.

And this is this dealing with Looking at the the Byzantine text as a later conflagration or as taking it as an independent witness to the text. All right, I know that Metzger just kind of dismisses the Byzantine text offhand most of the time and just says well we can't really trust it.

It's a the conflation that was it was carried out by Lucian, you know sometime in the fourth century. But what is it what is the actual evidence for that? And also tying in with that the figure from your King James only controversy book the one that has the The text types over the centuries and it shows how all the the text at the beginning were Alexandrian and as you move later, you get an ecclesiastical text developing.

Is that could that possibly Simply be due to the fact that those texts were preserved because they were in an arid location Versus those that would be found elsewhere. I mean, is there any other explanation or how would you how would you deal with those?

If a King James only us was coming to you with those types of well Only us but just someone who's Shows a more favorite to the majority text. How would you respond to that?

Well, if you want to if you want to hear and read a argument for Byzantine priority then you can read Maurice Robinson who's neither a TR only or King James only Individual in fact the the new edition of the King James only controversy, which should be out very quickly.

I shipped the Galleys back a week ago today. So they should be going to going to press pretty quickly has an extended footnote. I wrote to dr. Robinson and I Asked him if if he would provide to me a sort of a bibliography of the best Things that he would want someone to read that represents a Byzantine priority position and so it's like three-quarters of a page.

It's huge and so I included that because I I at least when I when I hear him presenting his his position I appreciate the high view of Scripture. I appreciate a lot of things about it. I'm not convinced of the position simply because I think that historically it really runs up against the problem of the rise of Islam.

The reason why you have so many texts coming out of Byzantium Istanbul Constantinople those areas and There's lots of arid areas up there by the way. It's not just there's there's there's there's moist areas.

And there's arid areas, and it's not just well if it's in Egypt, then it's always arid. That's not the case. And the same thing I mean there's deserts in Turkey and areas around Constantinople and things like that just as there are in the Middle East so that idea.

I don't necessarily think necessarily follows that so well. The only reason that those early texts are Alexandrian is because that's the only place they could be preserved sure a Desert in Egypt will preserve manuscripts well, but a desert in Turkey will too so There's there's you know just like here in Arizona.

There's places that are that are dry. But there are also places that are very moist it you can't just you know generalize in that fashion. I as far as the the Idea of a Lucianic revision goes there are clearly Byzantine readings that are very early the difference between having an early Byzantine reading and a Byzantine Manuscript is having a whole family of Byzantine readings that are found in early manuscripts.

That's what you lack, and I think you can see that modern textual Critical theory has at least been willing to look at those early readings in a fair manner by just looking at the difference between the Westcott Horta Westcott and Hort text in Tischendorf and The modern critical text the modern critical text has adopted a number of of what would be identified as early Byzantine readings.

And so I don't think it's just a matter. I think that that Ehrman does in general just dismiss Any type of Byzantine reading just just out of hand. I think that more Weight should be given to that that majority symbol.

I don't think you just look at that for some people you see majority and just automatically dismiss it. I think I think that shouldn't be the first thought across one's mind. I think you look at the nature of the variance and if it is in that realm of variance such as an expanded divine name if it shows obviously clearly it shows evidence of conflation if it is a Combination of two shorter readings that come from earlier manuscripts something like that then obviously.

That's why I think those would be dismissed by by the majority of textual scholars but there are readings in Byzantine manuscripts that are very early and They have been adopted when they have a good argument for for their originality In the modern critical text and that's another good reason.

I think to have A decent text available to you that is going to make those readings available and not just simply dismiss them so There's like I said, I I I'm not one of those folks a lot of people Dismiss a Maurice Robinson just off the top and just say I'm not even gonna think about it.

That's that you know, that's that's all been handled. No, I I listened to what he has to say. I think that there are some things to be thought through. You know, one of his arguments is that the critical text does not present to you any kind of text that Can can present a historical documentary existence.

Unlike the Byzantine text you can point to early texts that that as a as a text have the same Text as the Byzantine text whereas the the critical text you're gonna have all these these variances and you're not going to find any one manuscript that that Would consistently give you those kinds of readings and so, you know, there's there's weight to that.

I think you have to at least think that through. I I do think that in a lot of instances and well Certainly in my experience I can only go sort of experientially here in my experience I was really about the only person in my Greek class that was just fascinated by textual criticism and so depending on which size Greek class you want to talk about by second year Greek we had.

Well, no actually halfway through first-year Greek we were down to what we call the twelve apostles there are only twelve of us left and we wondered who Judas was going to be so. But in that class of twelve, you know one twelfth had a real interest and nobody else was really overly concerned about it.

It just didn't find that to be all that interesting and and that my experience has pretty much been even when I encounter Ministers who've kept their Greek up. It's almost like those notes at the bottom of the page just don't matter now, of course, they're using the UBS text.

They're only seeing about 400 variants. Anyways the Nessie Olin text to give a whole lot more but You just can't assume. Especially in this area when you hear well, the majority of people say or lots of people say you've got to be real careful About that kind of argumentation.

I mean, I think it's correct to observe that but then you have to ask the question. Yes, but It's sort of like saying well the majority of New Testament scholars accept Markham priority true. But what percentage of them have ever?

Heard any other kind of argumentation on the subject. It would be a very small percentage and so That kind of argumentation needs to be examined a little bit more carefully there.

Okay, and just as kind of a follow-up. Is there a really good book that you would recommend that just Delves into the variety of textual critical theories and examines their presuppositions.

Well a lot of that stuff you're going to find. You know in books like rethinking modern textual criticism there's a. There's there's one another one that has various views it's like a four views type thing I'm trying to remember it off top my head, but those books are in the other room right now.

There's one edited I think by black Moises Silva contributed to one of them. There's they're out there, but a lot of stuff you're gonna find locked away in in the journals and The Theological Journal library that librarnix has is very useful along those lines, but they don't really have all the high-end Textual critical journals, there's an excellent blog however and the blog archives are getting better and better the evangelical textual criticism blog that if you don't have that in your RSS feeds, I'd highly recommend it because it really is a goldmine of links and Bibliographies and stuff like that that would probably Be better than any single book you could ever find if you if you're familiar with that one.

It's it's very good. So okay, that'd be a direction to go. Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. You sir. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye alrighty, oh. Well, that's not a subject I was gonna be looking at.

But we'll go ahead and grab it real quick, let's talk with Robert in Seattle. Hi Robert. Hi. How are you? Mr. White doing good?

I just wanted to hear just for you to elaborate now. You have mentioned probably once before I just believe for the ones that did All the choosing they typically use this first and I you know, my my Greek is not as cool trying use this to defend that position.

Well, let's let folks know what you're talking about 2nd Peter 3 9. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise that some count slowness. But as patient toward you not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance is the ESV's rendering of 2nd Peter 3 9.

There is a chapter called the big three in the Potter's freedom 2nd Peter 3 9 1st 2nd Timothy 2 4 1st Timothy 2 4 and Matthew Chapter 23 and so I go through those and Attempt to explain each one just just briefly in 2nd Peter 3 9 when it says that God is patient toward you.

That you defines the all of the rest of the sentence when it says he is patient toward you not wishing that any. Any of who any of you should perish but that all all of who all of you? All of the ones in the context.

I mean if language means anything You can't do what most people do with this text and go. Well, yes, he's patient toward you and we're not gonna ask who the you is. We're just gonna say that that can be applied to anybody now try doing that with the rest of 2nd Peter about Rewards in heaven about holiness and so on so it would make no sense.

But that's what people do the use everybody not wishing that any that is of anybody should perish but that all everybody should reach repentance. Well, the problem is What is his promise and how is that relevant?

To you who is being addressed here the immediate context of 2nd Peter. 2nd Peter 1 1 is one of those texts that we use to demonstrate. That faith is a gift given to God's elect because it specifically refers to those who have received a faith the same kind as ours.

This is the audience that is being addressed and if you follow the pronouns through 2nd Peter chapter 3 what you discover is that he is addressing The delay in the parousia. Why has Christ not returned and he has not returned as of yet so that The the gathering of those elect people can be brought together.

He is fulfilling his promise. He's not slow to fill his promises some counsel onus. But there is patience that is being demonstrated and he is not wishing that any should perish. If obviously if Christ had come 500 years ago, then we would have never existed.

We never would Received a life or anything else and so the reason for this what looks to us as a delay in the coming of Christ is actually a fulfillment of the promise of God to build the church and to gather his elect people, so it's just a matter of allowing the pronouns to to be the pronouns and to recognize that the Patience that is being demonstrated as patience toward a specific people and they will all come to repentance.

Would it be a fair assessment or a fair analogy to use that all men who doesn't mean that everyone is going to get to the side. But well, yeah.

Anybody who who operates on the idea that all all means is all just simply doesn't speak in in. In human language we always Define our context by the language we use. There's all sorts of places in the New Testament Where the term all is used and it is used in such a fashion that You cannot make it a universal term.

The fact that there that there are places where you can Does not change the reality that there are places where it is clearly limited by its context. And so Thankfully most serious Armenians recognize that but but not all unfortunately.

Oh, I do appreciate your time. I know it's probably off-topic, but I didn't meaning it's my first time. I called listen to you a lot, but I appreciate it.

That's okay, I appreciate your call. Thank you, sir. Take care. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. All righty. Let's. I've been talking about these clips for so long. I want to try to get to him today. But we actually need to take our break first, so we'll be we'll be right back right after this short break.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

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Prayer to the Dead and Intercession of the Saints

Let's get to this clip or we're never gonna get this clip, this is Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers live Talking about prayers to the dead and a number of us found this rather Intriguing. Let's let's take a listen.

He also.

Chose to have the Christian community pray for each other as a way of building the Christian community up in love because if we're praying for other people it draws us out of ourselves and it makes us focus on them and their needs and care about them.

And. It also if we're asking someone to pray for us it again. It draws us out of ourselves and helps build up the Christian community in love by having us turn to other people for help. And so that for that reason he willed that other people pray for us.

And that we pray for other people as a way of promoting love in the Christian community and. That Christian community includes not only the folks here on earth. But also folks in heaven and we can see that for example in the book of Revelation where people in heaven are presenting our prayers To God so even though he is the unique mediator.

He's the fulcrum of the whole thing. Jesus Christ nevertheless willed to use other people as Instruments of his grace whether it's through the instrumentality of prayer or the instrumentality of preaching or the instrumentality of the Sacraments.

He chose to involve all of us in his work of salvation.

So by by using things as as Intermediaries if that's the right word would it also be Acceptable to like pray to a dead relative who's not a saint sure.

No, sure. Yeah, you you know, I'm a widower. I asked my wife for her intercession, you know, I asked my Grandparents who've passed on for their intercession, you know, I can ask anybody for their intercession.

And if the person is in a state where they can pray for you, God can make your your request known to them.

Can you go directly to God though, obviously you should.

But it also helps to have other people praying for you. Otherwise, we'd all just clam up and nobody would ever pray for anybody in the Christian community. That's not God's will. He wants the community to be drawn out of itself so that people aren't just focused on themselves.

They're praying for other people and asking others to pray for them that and so, you know. Obviously we can and should go directly to God but it's not God's will that each Christian go directly to him and never pray for anybody else and Never ask anybody for prayers.

That would violate the example of the Apostles where st. Paul both prays for other people and asks other people for prayers. What the church has done after further revelation like the book of Revelation is simply extend that to those who are already in heaven as well.

So the whole body of Christ both the part that's here on earth and the part that's in heaven is built up in love.

Now I gotta admit I maybe I just have have missed it, but I We're all going wait a minute you can pray to people who aren't Saints. Now notice it was very careful say seeking their intercession. Now, of course there's a vast difference between Paul saying pray for me and communication with dead people asking them to intercede before God for you and And Then the whole Marian concept and all the rest of stuff and and we've discussed this we went through the mid Madrid debate.

It's not my intention today to go back over all of the grossly unbiblical elements of Roman Catholic idolatry at this point that doesn't understand the purpose of prayer and prayer is worship and and the concept of merit and all the rest that stuff but isn't there in Roman Catholicism a concept about Not being presumptuous and How do you unless the church has proclaimed someone a saint you can't know whether they're in heaven or not.

They might still be in purgatory. Or they may not have made it. I mean all the time Catholics keep telling me we can't judge. We can't judge. We can't judge. But if you are praying to someone and ask them to intercede for you, you just judged that they're in a place that They can do that that I mean What if you pray to a relative and that relative actually committed a mortal sin before their death and they're in hell.

God's not going to Transmit your request to them in hell is he? What if they're in purgatory are they praying in purgatory? I suppose you can say they are while they're suffering satis Pacio, I guess.

But it just seems Really out of place. I mean at least there's a foundation in Roman Catholic theology is not a biblical one. But a foundation for the idea that once someone's a saint They had more merit than was necessary to counterbalance temporal punishments their sins.

And so they've made it into heaven itself. Okay. But if you don't know that then How can you? Pray to them and Of course the whole idea that that this is based out of a revelation. We we already saw that that's that's just simply ridiculous the the text is Revelation 5 8 and when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb each holding a harp and Golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers the Saints.