Odd Comments

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning back from Dallas had a great opportunity there to Speak with Steve Lawson at Countryside Bible Church I was a little embarrassed when

I got there because I walked in the offices and I looked around I said I've been here before haven't

I? Yep seven years ago, okay. All right. Well, you can tell you've been you've been around a bit when you seven years ago, how many places have you been since then, you know, and it's sort of hard to keep track, but They did a great job there

Pastor Pennington who wasn't there before and I think that's one of the reasons it didn't necessarily click with me Is that sometimes the pastor's name?

You know, I associate with the church and he wasn't there when I was there in 2002 In fact, they didn't have a pastor at that time, which is one of the reasons

I was there actually helped to fill in during that period of time with that one weekend and My biggest remembrance was that dr.

S Lewis Johnson was in the the congregation that morning that I preached which You know puts a little pressure on you while you're preaching, but that's okay

And so it was great to meet with the folks. We had a good time. I posted two of the presentations

I made on Sola Fide on my youtube page and on the blog. I didn't

Yes, actually Sunday morning. I did two presentations on Islam back -to -back.

They have two services and That if you go to church where they do two services

You need to realize that's very tiring for the staff everybody involved, but especially the preacher it's

That's if they really put themselves into it. That's that's very very challenging

There's no two ways about it. And the biggest challenge for me is I Once preached a church that did three services.

The third service was a mess for me Because it was in two times.

I can sort of remember what illustrations I've used You know thing you get to the third one and you're so tired.

You just can't keep keep track of things so Everybody's saying dead air at the moment

Yeah, everybody's saying we be gone So I have no idea what's what's happened there, but we will let the technical gurus

See if we can figure that out Interestingly Enough.

I just saw algo and channel tell me that I lectured on new Perspectivism the first time

I was at Countryside Bible Church. I Don't remember that at all

But if that's true, then that's absolutely frightening that That he would know that that's that's just I Don't know

That's just scary to me it truly is so Looks like we hopefully are recording all this anyways, so that it'll be on the

Podcast what sounds like we're having some difficulties with with our feed right now. I have no earthly idea why but Maybe we've got a net

Disturbance in our area You've got says it says it's working, huh? Okay. Well, we'll just keep trying and and hopefully it'll all work out over time.

I guess with the first question On the screen. I might as well go with what

I have about three different subjects here presented in front of me and I Didn't really know what you're to go in but since the phone call topic is on this we'll do this and then take the phone call

Don't want to spend the whole hour on the text issues again since we've done that for a couple of weeks now

I realize it's a extremely important issue, but there are other things to be talking about as well

But I was I've cannot help but notice and shake my head at the kind of behavior and and the like that Has resulted from the ermine debate.

I did have a brother come up to me after my Islam presentation Sunday morning at the church So if you're gonna love this

And by the way, we were sent a full transcription of the ermine debate today

And so I want to get that up. I sent it to rich and I want to make that available because the Fellow had said he couldn't believe how much it helped to have the written word as he was listening

To follow especially a difficult debate like this. So someone has been kind enough to transcribe the whole thing and so we'll

See if we can't attach that since we're already attaching a AVI file or mp4 or whatever

It was we put the format we put in You can get the transcription as well So hopefully that'll be helpful to people too

But the the responses this fellow came up to me Well after I gave my Islam presentation, he gave me a puzzle box it's a box with a puzzle in it and he made it himself and the puzzles of biblical manuscripts

But the front says the thousand piece biblical manuscript puzzle with extra pieces added in So if you've listened to the debate, you know exactly what he was talking about And I guess he found that particular illustration rather useful so I Did find that rather Intriguing that that was was going on could

I be causing a problem because I'm plugged into the the net Hardwired with my

Mac over here because I wasn't getting proper wireless connection I can't see how that would do anything, but it does seem that we are having

Issues with all the net because even the IRC channel is lagging and then catching up lying and catching up and so that would seem to indicate an issue with the the input and output of the the internet here locally, maybe

Maybe I don't know it's possibility, but I'll just have to try to ignore that and stick with the stick with the program here and See how the how it's how it's working.

I mean some people are still getting it So we're getting something out there, but evidently there's some kind of you know

We did have storms here. Yeah, I used to be a big issue when we'd have storms. I mean we're at the house When it would rain we'd have all sorts of internet issues.

We haven't had that problem down here, but Haven't had a whole lot of rain for a number of months either. So and we did have some work done on the phone lines since since last rainstorm, so We'll see who knows

You never know these things anyhow The reaction to the urban debate The what was it debunking

Christianity actually had semi nice things to say About the urban debate, but who who has been just absolutely rapacious

It's it's been folks who are on the King James only or TR only side of things

Which I've people ask me who are the nastiest people in their behavior toward you and They're expecting me to say

Mormons or Muslims or atheists. No, no King James only folks take the cake of all the groups

I've ever dealt with the people that are consistently the most the nastiest Most most just just well,

I'll just stick with nasty for now our King James only folks It's just it's just been that way since 1995 it is it is truly an amazing thing to observe and last

Week I made mention of a comment That I had posted on on my blog from a guy by the name of Kent Brandenburg, I believe is his name and This is this is what he said

He said quote in fairness to ermine even though I hate the work that he does He has a higher standard for text that comes from God than white does

White acts like any of us should expect errors. I think it is whites Calvinism God wanted errors in the text because of the greater good there would be something like that now as I documented a long time ago

The King James only folks agree with Bart Ehrman on the fundamental claim that if God inspired it

There would be no textual variation They agree. That's their position Now they then glom on to a 17th century

Anglican translation and Ignore its Translation errors ignore its translators ignore the history ignore

The text is based upon ignore the revisions They just ignore all that because they agree with Bart Ehrman that if it was

Originally inspired then you shouldn't have any textual variance You need to have that one text and that's the same view that the

Muslims have the Quran many of them And so on so forth. We've talked about that But what what is this?

Whites Calvinism God wanted errors in the text because the greater good there would be something like that.

I'm quoting that I Identified last week. I identified that as not only as a lie because it is

But I identified it as as coming from a bigoted attitude It's a bigotry toward reformed theology bigotry toward myself and People just went nuts

Well, what is bigotry? Is it is it not an irrational prejudice? Can any rational person?

Substantiate what mr. Brandenburg said? Well, the answer is no, but you can see how much the modern

Postmodernism of our day has influenced even King James only advocates and others because if you identify something that is clearly

Flowing not from any type of rational thought but from a a deep bigotry toward a position a bias a prejudice that goes beyond Rationality if you identify that then you're somehow hateful and nasty and and so on so forth.

So I have to Apologize to the folks at the Puritan board Because I went and mentioned them and I must realize that when

I if I mention anything like that Then bunches of my my wonderful fans

Will come rolling over to to they'll you know, even if they've ever been there before they'll

Google it And so some fellow from Singapore a real nice guy Just just just spitting fire

Showed up on the Puritan board and started just popping off all sorts of stuff. But one of the things he said

I Pulled up this morning was try and avoid pejorative terms like extremist to describe other confessional brethren

I know the unedifying and disgraceful ad hominem comments James White made about Kent Brandenburg now as We have noted ad hominem is the most abused term in in all of Latin phraseology today

Because the only way I could have made an argument against mr. Brandenburg using ad hominem would have been to say mr.

Brandenburg is wrong because His nose is big or he's wrong because of this or he's wrong because of that and those

Arguments would have been against him as a person I wasn't even arguing whether he's right or wrong because it was so obvious that that wasn't even relevant

I was simply pointing out the man's behavior. That's not ad hominem. So let's at least try to learn to use the phrase, right?

okay, I mean I realize it's just constant out there, but again and unedifying and disgraceful ad hominem comments

James White made against about Kent Brandenburg in Contrast to his sycophantic approach to the apostate ermine.

Oh Yeah, I yeah, that's how I've been approaching Bart Ehrman. Yeah, I Yeah, how do you how do you even reason?

How do you even reason with folks? It's just it absolutely absolutely amazing.

I'm watching a rich going crazy near the room clearly Nothing. Nothing is working.

Right is the server just not working, right? Is it just bouncing around? You know the the servers the servers.

It's the server. Is it us? Can you tell as? Best I can tell it's the internet itself

Internet itself. Yeah, we seem to be hitting check holes. So we feed for a little bit and then suddenly we hit a bump and Registers an error and then connects right back up and here we go again

And so all of our listeners are logging on right back on Right now interesting and we'll probably go for another six minutes and then bounce again, huh?

Well, it's a little windy outside But it's been worse.

It's the first time this has happened and not yeah, I like this So, I you know I'm kind of wondering if I got

Got the car drove around the neighborhood See some fellow with one of those funny hats and umbrellas sitting in a corner playing playing playing with working with the phone lines

It's possible anyway, I'll just keep trying that's best we can do Anyhow folks living in third world countries are going you get six minutes of uninterrupted internet.

Wow, you guys are lucky So hey, you know, it's we could be in Carlos position, you know

We could have the frozen squirrels of Canada So anyhow,

I I found I found that response rather Odd to observe but what has been very heartening is to hear from the folks who have listened carefully to the debate

And they understand they understand why I did what I did they understand The things that the

Bart Ehrman said they understand that the leading Intellectual skeptic of our day in textual the textual critical area and who's trying to become the leading intellectual skeptic in all areas did a debate where a

Believer did not have to compromise his position one bit and stood toe -to -toe with him and if he's right that shouldn't have been able to even take place, but it did and they see that and they also see the inconsistencies in the responses that he offers and the radical skepticism that simply doesn't make any sense, so I'm glad that there are people who are listening carefully and understand that and that's that's exciting and that's the people that we

That we debate for and so I'm excited about that So before we go on to the next area of discussion, which will include some clips from Catholic answers live

Finally, let's go ahead and take a phone call. I hope the phone lines work as well.

And let's talk with Matt. Hi, Matt Hello, Matt, hi, dr.

White. It's a privilege to talk to you today. Yes, sir I've got a question This airmen debate has really got me back into textual criticism

And I've wanted to smooth out some areas that I've really had a good answer for And this is this dealing with Looking at the the

Byzantine text as a later conflagration or as taking it as an independent witness to the text

All right, I know that Metzger just kind of dismisses the Byzantine text offhand most of the time and just says well we can't really trust it

It's a the conflation that was it was carried out by Lucian, you know sometime in the fourth century

But what is it what is the actual evidence for that? and also tying in with that the figure from your

King James only controversy book the one that has the The text types over the centuries and it shows how all the the text at the beginning were

Alexandrian and as you move later, you get an ecclesiastical text developing is that could that possibly simply be due to the fact that those texts were because they were in an arid location versus Those that would be found elsewhere.

I mean, is there any other explanation or how would you how would you deal with those? If a

King James only us was coming to you with those types of well I'm not necessarily King James only us, but just someone who's

Shows a more favor to the majority text. How would you respond to that? well, if you want to if you want to hear and read a argument for Byzantine priority then you can read

Maurice Robinson who's neither a TR only or King James only Individual in fact the the new edition of the

King James only controversy, which should be out very quickly. I shipped the Galleys back a week ago today

So they should be going to going to press pretty quickly has an extended footnote. I wrote to dr.

Robinson and I Asked him if he would provide to me a sort of a bibliography of the best

Things that he would want someone to read that represents a Byzantine priority position and so it's like three -quarters of a page

It's huge. And so I included that because I I at least when

I when I hear him presenting is his position I appreciate the high view of Scripture. I appreciate a lot of things about it

I'm not convinced of the position simply because I think that historically it really runs up against the problem of the rise of Islam the reason why you have so many texts coming out of Byzantium Istanbul Constantinople those areas and There's lots of arid areas up there, by the way

It's not just there's there's there's there's moist areas and there's arid areas and it's not just well if it's in Egypt Then it's always arid.

That's not the case And the same thing. I mean there's deserts in Turkey and areas around Constantinople and things like that Just as there are in the

Middle East so that idea. I don't necessarily think necessarily follows that so well

The only reason that those early texts are Alexandrian is because that's the only place they could be preserved sure a

Desert in Egypt will preserve manuscripts. Well, but a desert in Turkey will too. So there's there's

You know just like here in Arizona, there's places that are that are dry But there are also places that are very moist it you can't just you know generalize in that fashion

I as far as the the idea of a Lucianic revision goes there are clearly

Byzantine readings that are very early the difference between having an early Byzantine reading and a

Byzantine manuscript is having a whole family of Byzantine readings that are found in early manuscripts.

That's what you lack and I think you can see that modern textual

Critical theory has at least been willing to look at those early readings in a fair manner by just looking at the difference between the

Westcott Horta Westcott and Hort text in Tischendorf and The modern critical text the modern critical text has adopted a number of of what would be identified as early

Byzantine readings And so I don't think it's just a matter. I think that that Ehrman does in general just dismiss

Any type of Byzantine reading just just out of hand I think that more

Weight should be given to that to that majority symbol I don't think you just look at that for some people you see majority and just automatically dismiss it

I think I think that shouldn't be the first thought across one's mind I think you look at the nature of the variants and if it is

In that realm of variants such as an expanded divine name

If it shows obviously clearly that shows evidence of conflation if it is a

Combination of two shorter readings that come from earlier manuscripts something like that then obviously

That's why I think those would be dismissed by by the majority of textual scholars but there are readings in Byzantine manuscripts that are very early and They have been adopted when they have a good argument for for their originality

In the modern critical text and that's another good reason I think to have A decent text available to you that is going to make those readings available and not just simply dismiss them so There's like I said,

I I'm not one of those folks a lot of people dismiss a Maurice Robinson Just off the top and just say

I'm not even gonna think about it. That's that you know, that's that's all been handled No, I I listen to what he has to say.

I think that there's some things to be thought through You know, one of his arguments is that the critical text does not present to you any kind of text that Can can present a historical documentary existence?

Unlike the Byzantine text you can point to early texts that that as a as a text have the same

Context as the Byzantine text whereas the the critical text you're gonna have all these these variances and you're not gonna find any one manuscript that that Would consistently give you those kinds of readings and so, you know, there's there's weight to that I think you have to at least think that through I I do think that in a lot of instances and well

Certainly in my experience. I can only go sort of experientially here in my experience I was really about the only person in my

Greek class that was just fascinated by textual criticism and so depending on which size

Greek class you want to talk about by second year Greek we had Well, no actually halfway through first year

Greek. We were down to what we call the twelve apostles there are only twelve us left and we wondered who Judas was going to be so But in that class of twelve, you know one twelfth had a real interest and nobody else was really overly concerned about It just didn't find that to be all that interesting and and that my experience is pretty much been even when

I encounter Ministers who've kept their Greek up It's almost like those notes at the bottom of page just don't matter now, of course, they're using the

UBS text They're only seeing about 400 variants. Anyways the Nessie Allen text to give a whole lot more but You just can't assume

Especially in this area when you hear well the majority of people say or lots of people say you've got to be real careful

About that kind of argumentation. I mean, I think it's correct to observe that but then you have to ask the question.

Yes, but It's sort of like saying well the majority of New Testament scholars accept mark and priority true

But what percentage of them have ever heard any other kind of argumentation on the subject?

it would be a very small percentage and so That kind of argumentation needs to be examined a little bit more carefully there

Okay, and just as kind of a follow -up. Is there a really good book that you would recommend that just?

Delves into the variety of textual critical theories and examines their presuppositions

Well a lot of that stuff you're going to find You know in books like rethinking modern textual criticism there's a

There's there's one another one that has various views it's like a four views type thing

I'm trying to remember it off the top of my head, but those books are in the other room right now There's one edited

I think by black Moises Silva contributed to one of them. There's they're out there, but a lot of stuff you're gonna find locked away in in the journals and The theological journal library that so libra nix has is very useful along those lines, but they don't really have all the high -end textual critical journals

There's an excellent blog however, and the blog archives are getting better and better the evangelical textual criticism blog but if you don't have that in your

RSS feeds, I'd highly recommend it because it really is a goldmine of links and Bibliographies and stuff like that that would probably

Be better than any single book you could ever find if you if you're familiar with that one

It's it's very good, so okay. That'd be a direction to go. Okay. Great. Thank you. All right.

You sir. Thank you very much Alrighty oh

Well that's not a subject I was gonna be looking at But we'll go ahead and grab it real quick, let's

Talk with Robert in Seattle hi Robert. Hi, how are you mr.. White done good?

Um I just wanted to hear just for you to elaborate now you have mentioned probably once before but good question is that I Just believe definitely believe that God that does the choosing is really many verses

You know I could find to support that But I know people that want to believe that they're the ones that did all the choosing they typically use this first To say well see it's you know it's all and and I you know my my

Greek is but it's probably Should be and so sometimes you know I'll be honest I'm kind of stumped on this one when certain people try and use this to defend that position

Well, let's let folks know what you're talking about 2nd Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise that some count slowness

But is patient toward you not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance is the ESV's rendering of 2nd

Peter 3 9 There is a chapter called the big three in the potter's freedom 2nd

Peter 3 9 1st 2nd Timothy 2 4 and 1st Timothy 2 4 and Matthew chapter 23 and so I go through those and Attempt to explain each one.

Just just briefly in 2nd Peter 3 9 when it says that God is patient toward you

That you defines The all of the rest of the sentence when it says he is patient toward you not wishing that any any of who any of you?

Should perish, but that all all of who all of you all of the ones in the context

I mean if language means anything You can't do what most people do with this text and go well

Yes He's patient toward you and we're not gonna ask who the you is we're just gonna say that that can be applied to anybody

Now try doing that with the rest of 2nd Peter about Rewards in heaven and about holiness and so on so it would make no sense

But that's what people do the use everybody not wishing that any that is of anybody should perish But that all everybody should reach repentance.

Well the problem is What is his promise and how is that relevant? To you who is being addressed here the immediate context of 2nd

Peter 2nd Peter 1 1 is one of those texts that we use to Demonstrate that faith is a gift given to God's elect because it specifically refers to those who have received a faith the same kind as ours

This is the audience that is being addressed and if you follow the pronouns through 2nd

Peter chapter 3 what you discover is that he is addressing The delay in the parousia why has

Christ not returned and he has not returned as of yet so that The the gathering of those elect people can be brought together he is fulfilling his promise

He's not slow to fill his promises some counsel onus But there is patience that is being demonstrated and he is not wishing that any should perish if obviously if Christ had come 500 years ago, then we would have never existed.

We never would Received a life or anything else and so the reason for this what looks to us is a delay in the coming of Christ is actually a fulfillment of the promise of God to build the church and to gather his elect people, so it's just a matter of allowing the pronouns to to be the pronouns and to recognize that the

Patience that is being demonstrated as patience toward his specific people and they will all come to repentance

Would it be a fair assessment or a fair analogy to use that all men who cross the street get to the other side?

Doesn't mean that everyone is going to get to the side, but well Anybody who who operates on the idea that all all means is all just simply doesn't speak in in in human language we always

Define our context by the language we use there's all sorts of places in the

New Testament Where the term all is used and it is used in such a fashion that You cannot make it a universal term the fact that there that there are places where you can

Does not change the reality that there are places where it is clearly limited by its context and so Thankfully most serious

Arminians recognize that but but not all unfortunately Oh, I do appreciate your time

I know it's probably off -topic, but I didn't meaning it's my first time I've called that listen to you a lot, but I appreciate it

That's okay. I appreciate your call. Thank you, sir. Take care. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All righty, let's uh,

I've been talking about these clips for so long. I want to try to get to them today But we actually need to take our break first.

We'll be we'll be right back right after this short break Today So many stop strong and true

Quickly fall away Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the

Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611 you can order your copy of James White's book the

King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a

omin .org The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith

Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates

This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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Hello, everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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Thank you Let's get to this clip or we're never gonna get this clip this is

Jimmy Akin on Catholic answers live Talking about prayers to the dead and a number of us found this rather Intriguing let's let's take a listen.

He also Chose to have the Christian community pray for each other as a way of building the

Christian community up in love because if we're praying for other people it draws us out of ourselves and it makes us focus on them and their needs and care about them and It also if we're asking someone to pray for us it again

It draws us out of ourselves and helps build up the Christian community in love by having us turn to other people for help

And so that for that reason he willed that other people pray for us and that we pray for other people as a way of promoting love in the

Christian community and That Christian community includes not only the folks here on earth But also folks in heaven and we can see that for example in the book of Revelation where people in heaven are

Presenting our prayers to God. So even though he is the unique mediator. He's the fulcrum of the whole thing

Jesus Christ nevertheless willed to use other people as instruments of his grace whether it's through the instrumentality of prayer or the instrumentality of preaching or the

Instrumentality of the sacraments. He chose to involve all of us in his work of salvation

Um, so by by using things as Intermediaries if that's the right word, would it also be acceptable to Like pray to a dead relative who's not a saint sure

No, sure. Yeah, you you know, I'm a widower. I asked my wife for her intercession, you know,

I asked my Grandparents who passed on for their intercession, you know, I can ask anybody for their intercession

And if the person is in a state where they can pray for you God can make your your request known to them

Can you go directly to God though, obviously you should But it also helps to have other people praying for you

Otherwise, we'd all just clam up and nobody would ever pray for anybody in the Christian community. That's not

God's will He wants the community to be drawn out of itself so that people aren't just focused on themselves

They're praying for other people and asking others to pray for them that and so, you know

Obviously we can and should go directly to God but it's not God's will that each

Christian go directly to him and never pray for anybody else and Never ask anybody for prayers

That would violate the example of the Apostles where st. Paul both prays for other people and asks other people for prayers

What the church has done after further revelation like the book of Revelation is simply Extend that to those who are already in heaven as well

So the whole body of Christ both the part that's here on earth and the part that's in heaven is built up in love now

I gotta admit I maybe I just have missed it, but We were all going wait a minute you can pray to people who aren't

Saints Now notice it was very careful to say seeking their intercession now, of course there's a vast difference between Paul saying pray for me and communication with dead people asking them to intercede before God for you and Then the whole

Marian concept and all the rest of stuff and and we've discussed this we went through the mid Madrid debate

It's not my intention today to go back over all of the grossly unbiblical Elements of Roman Catholic idolatry at this point that doesn't understand the purpose of prayer and prayer is worship and and the concept of merit and all the rest that stuff but isn't there in Roman Catholicism a concept about not pre being presumptuous and How do you unless the church has proclaimed someone a saint you can't know whether they're in heaven or not?

They might still be in purgatory Or they may not have made it. I mean all the time

Catholics keep telling me we can't judge. We can't judge We can't judge

But if you are praying to someone ask them to intercede for you, you just judged that they're in a place that They can do that that I mean

What if you pray to a relative and that relative actually committed a mortal sin before their death and they're in hell?

God's not going to Transmit your request to them in hell is he What if they're in purgatory?

Are they praying in purgatory? I suppose you can say they are while they're suffering inside of spacio,

I guess But it just seems Really out of place.

I mean at least there's a foundation in Roman Catholic theology It's not a biblical one But a foundation for the idea that once someone's a saint they had more merit than was necessary to Counterbalance temporal punishments of their sins and so they've made it into heaven itself.

Okay But if you don't know that then how can you pray to them and Of course the whole idea that that this is based out of out of Revelation We we already saw that that's that's just simply

Ridiculous, the the text is Revelation 5 8 And when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb each holding a harp and Golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers the

Saints? Well, how do you know those 24 elders are even human beings? High probability they're not they're heavenly beings and how is the

Having golden bowls full of incense Which are the prayers of the Saints? Why does that have anything to do with the idea that those prayers were directed to anybody but God?

There's no basis for that whatsoever non zip zero nada And yet well, you know once so the further revelation the book of Revelation that tells us come on That's not what it means that that's not a basis for overthrowing everything.

The scripture says about prayer being an act of worship toward God But anyway, that's that's what you get with with the

Roman Catholics I loved the long pause when he finished in the gals like good

Really? Yeah. Yeah, she wasn't really certain about what what what caused me to do the very same thing was as he's talking about praying to anybody and Then he throws in this real quick little caveat if they're in a position.

Yes. Yes, they're in a position Yeah, what would that position all about How would that work is what

I would I would like to know I it was interesting I think a lot of a lot of folks found that quite interesting.

But anyway, I did have some other clips here real quick that I wanted to get to Let's let's go ahead and stick with Jimmy Akin today.

I'm not sure if I can get to Martin Yoni today or not we'll see because there's another issue I wanted to raise but a

Lot of folks would find it interesting to listen to a Roman Catholic discussing the topic of predestination

I remember Jimmy Akin was at one time Quote -unquote reformed actually, he was also at one time a follower of Gene Scott, so that gives you some idea, but He certainly is familiar with reformed phraseology and so on and so forth

And so let's let's listen to what he has to say on this particular subject Let's go now to Michelle listening in Cloverdale, Indiana on eighty nine point one.

Hello, Michelle Hi, hi there, I have a question about Romans chapter 9.

I don't have my Bible in front of me, but it has the sound of a double

Predestination about it. He talks about the clay and right the pots for noble purposes

Destroyed. Yeah. Now one of the things I want you to be listening to One of the things

I want you to be listening to here is in the past I have played and I didn't do it today, but in the past it's been a number of years, but I thought it was rather It was rather highly effective.

I have played clips of Carl Keating Immediately followed by Dave Hunt saying the exact same things

About the the concept of predestination and I Sort of like doing this every once in a while just to remind you our minions

Who like to listen because of the other things we discuss but you get all uncomfortable when we talk about Calvinism You just close your minds.

God. I don't want to think about it, but I hope it just bothers you to no end to listen to this next clip where Jimmy Akin does pretty much the same thing that a lot of quote -unquote evangelicals do in beating up on Romans 9 and just Completely missing the whole point of the potter and the clay just to try to get around what is being said here

So listen carefully and for all your minions, I hope you really enjoy this Well, it can be taken various ways and you're right, especially in English It does sound like double predestination

But you have to compare it to other passages too and you have to be sensitive to the way in which

The New Testament uses predestinarian language It's true that it does talk about people being predestined to various ends.

The question is what's the basis of the predestination? Is it exclusively God's choice? or is it maybe something else like God's choice and Or his foreknowledge of whether or not people will choose to receive his grace when he offers it

Or is it something else like he predestines those who are in a saving connection with Christ?

To one end and those who are not in a saving connection with Christ to another end so that you could potentially even shift categories

Based on whether or not you acquire or reject a saving relationship with Christ. You could move back and forth between the categories

So it's it's not Clear and there are a variety of options Theologically in terms of how this language is to be taken one thing and it's been a it's been a long time

So I looked at this passage. So forgive me if what I'm about to say is mistaken, but I know whenever Jimmy Akin starts doing this this is

I'm discovering this is sort of how he handles this because remember we have documented a number of Really basic errors on mr.

Akin's part in regards to the Greek language now Hey people can make mistakes.

Okay, and at least he's just said it's been a long time since I looked at this But remember for a long time for years

Jimmy Akin had posted on the web a The notes that he used in our radio debate on KXL radio on John chapter 6 and That material included in it his claim about an heiress in John 6 that Shortly after the debate

I had demonstrated was just completely in error I mean it he he came up with a syntactic category that just it doesn't it's not right.

It's I It's just 100 % wrong if he was in a first or second year Greek class would have been marked wrong wrong wrong well, it was up for years and then finally took it down and I've played the clip for you where someone finally called in and asked him about it and he identified what he had said as silly

He admitted he was wrong about that now he did not go on to explain Okay, if that was his primary argument in our

KXL radio debate Then that means that he lost the debate right if he's now saying that the arguments he used back then were silly

Which I would guess he'd have to admit but anyway So at least he has just said here.

Well, it's been a while So that's how you get around the fact that he's just about to make mincemeat out of the text of Romans 9

I'm pretty sure I'm right there is a difference in the voice of the of the verb

Went in Greek when it talks about the vessels prepared for destruction

My memory is that that's in the middle voice in Greek Voice in English, we only have two voices.

We have the active voice and the passive voice. So you know I can say I Hit the ball.

That's active voice And then I could say I was hit by the ball.

That's passive voice But in Greek, there's a third voice called the middle voice

Which It typically indicates something or at least can indicate something that's done to oneself so I could say like I hit myself with the ball and My memory is that that's the case here where it's talking about the the vessels prepared for destruction

That the that the verb is in the middle voice there. So when it talks about those

Vessels prepared for for glory for heaven, whatever It's it's the passive voice it's indicating

God's preparing them But in the case of the vessels prepared for destruction, it's in the middle voice indicating they prepare themselves for destruction

So there's a difference there that would not imply double predestination

On the on the on the grammatical level in the Greek if memory serves

Okay, okay, if I were to maybe use a lexicon what would that help If it's an if it's an analytical lexicon, yes, if it's an ordinary lexicon, no

Analytical lexicons contain information about the specific forms of words and passages What tell you what the easier thing to do is just give us a call in the apologist line

We'll help track that down for you. I Hope she did. I really hope she did because then hopefully the apologist

Ross have to go Oh Actually Qatar tids, oh there is is actually in the passive and Yeah, you can try to force a middle in there but actually then we'd have to explain why all the

English translations actually render it as a passive and Then you'd have to try to explain the fact that Aiken doesn't really understand the middle

Because while there can be a reflexive Concept in the middle voice.

It's not always there and that would have something to do with the actually the meaning of the verb itself, which he didn't seem to even know what the lexical form of the verb was and But is that what you'd get when you'd call the apologist line at Catholic answers is the question

Probably not. I'm afraid However, if you go to this website called alpha and Omega ministries a o min org and you go to the the articles page, which is still in the 2000 mode and I believe if you go to reformed apologetics,

I'm doing this right now and let me see Here do you do there it is a response to RCH Lenski on Romans 9

This would be a vintage .aomin .org slash Lenski rep Lenski is the

L is capitalized. Nothing else is Lenski rep L e n s k i rep dot html You will see a fairly lengthy discussion of Lenski's attempt to get around the issue of Romans chapter 9 and You will see ooh.

I just Looked at the Greek and the Greek looks terrible, I guess for some reason

We'll have to get that switched over so that it's in Unicode. So it actually displays properly It says at the top you need the mouse font.

I have the mouse font. It still doesn't look right Unfortunately, but that was written a number of years ago before we had

Standardized Unicode fonts and we still need to get some of that stuff in there Unfortunately, anyway,

I Have at the bottom if you look down beginning around Romans 9 20 through 21 a discussion of the issue of this verb and its relationship to Here's That some of the commentary

Lenski's response is amazing though Consists of the errors we have been piling up in the desperate attempt to avoid the only possible conclusion to Paul's argument

The key to his entire lengthy attempt to escape the way of the text is this when the latter are described

A perfect part passive paracybals used fitted for destruction which hides the agent who therefore is not

God Satan fitted them so I deal with the fact that it's a passive there

It's not a middle But I then deal with those who use the passive over against the active of the next verse to say we'll see

It doesn't say who fitted him And I dealt with that there's we want to take a look at it, so mr.

Mr. Aiken is is an error it is a passive, but I Think what he was probably thinking this is

I think he may have mixed up Acts 1348 with this

I'm trying to give a benefit of doubt here I'm just trying to figure out you know, where would this come from so on so forth and I'd Giving the benefit of the doubt he's probably doing the middle passive thing from Acts 1348 and He's transferred that over here having heard somebody use a

Lenski type argument that well since this is a passive It doesn't tell us who the agent is maybe that's what it is.

I don't know It's hard to say because he doesn't get very specific but anyway there there there is the issue it's a passive in Romans 9 and even if it were in a middle form you'd have to come up with more to substantiate the idea of Reflexive and and things like that and and you can read a little bit more of that on on the website if you would like To so there is a response to to Jimmy Aiken on that subject now

Did I? Close the the window that I had there. I had something something up.

Maybe maybe I did that That's that's intelligent. I guess I did

Anyway, I wanted to discuss briefly a quote that I read just before we came on on the air and Evidently, I did

Change it here, but I'll be able to get to it fast enough. I received a book in the mail a couple days ago And well, maybe a couple weeks ago now

I don't know but Greg Kugel has a book out called tactics a game plan for discussing your

Christian convictions and It looks like it's very readable and Probably would be a quick read.

It's right at 200 pages long, but the fairly large print and it looks very very very readable and I I would like to work through it myself as time allows and Just looking through it

It looks like it's very very practical especially in dealing with the kind of thinking that people present today and so I'm looking forward to looking at that, but I was actually looking at the review of it on chalice .com

and I read this paragraph and it didn't sit right with me.

And so I wanted to read it and see what you think about it This is Chalice saying what

I think of Christian apologetics I tend to think of evidence demands a verdict or some of the classics of days gone by But in this book

Kugel offers a new approach and one that is well suited the times He teaches the Christian to think well to exemplify grace and to humbly lead a conversation to the truth

Then we've got the quote and I didn't find this quote, but I doubt I don't doubt that's there

We may spend hours helping someone carefully work through an issue without ever mentioning God Jesus or the

Bible This does not mean we aren't advancing the kingdom. It is always a step in the right direction

When I think it should be we help others think more carefully if nothing else It gives them tools to assess the bigger questions that eventually come up end quote now

I would like to know what the context of that is Because there's something about that just doesn't sit right with me

Yeah, I could spend hours talking to someone about how to use particular transitions in Keynote on a

Mac okay, and Maybe in none of that conversation would divine realities come to to the fore.

Okay, that's a possibility But I don't think that's what's being discussed here. I couldn't imagine almost any discussion of value and of permanence on eternal issues or issues of morality or issues of truth and error or issues of science or issues of any issue that I Couldn't see my

Christian faith coming to the fore far earlier than an hour and so I I I Can see in one sense.

I can see what's being said, but at the same time I am concerned about the fact that given the context in which we live

Where you have mankind? It's just steeped in his own autonomy

Where you're dealing with people who have been have had a form of anti Christian humanism crammed down their throats every day am

I Am I? actually advancing the kingdom if I just simply

Help someone with an exercise in logic, but I don't point to the only source from which logic can come

I I don't know. That's the case I just don't know, you know, maybe it's just an overblown maybe it's just you know overblown because you're saying well, you know hours or something like that, but I I Don't see how that would happen

So I'd like to track that quote down in its context and and see if there's anything that modifies it because I I Think that there needs to be a challenge to the the autonomy of man and a recognition that if you are thinking logically there is a reason why you should think logically and That is that as the creatures of God God has made us in that way and that we should in fact

Think his thoughts after him that to think logically is to think in such a way as to honor

God and to recognize his existence so Just a little something. I wanted to mention there

If I get the opportunity of working through the book and have some more comments than that I will do so as time comes along Lord willing this coming

Thursday afternoon we'll be back here on the dividing line with your calls and all sorts of other interesting things to discuss and the subject of Apologetics and applying the

Lordship of Christ and all of life. Thanks for listening today. We'll see you next time. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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