Patriotism and Christianity

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist. Today I am joined by a man who needs no introduction. He has been on this show almost as many times as I have.

Richard Roden. How are you doing, buddy?

Doing good, brother. It's good to be back. Didn't even have a goofy, somewhat serious conversation for a while.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to fun. I think you and I always have a blast, and listener, if you don't know Richard, Richard is a deacon in his church. He is also a Sunday school teacher. He's also one of my best friends.

We have been friends since high school. I love him so much. I am literally sleeping in his house. Well, not really anymore. I bought his house, and now I am in the house that used to be his. In fact, my studio is in the room that used to be his bedroom.

If you'll notice, the background that I'm having today represents the conversation topic that we're going to talk about, because we're going to talk about Christianity and patriotism. Before I do that, I have to mention something about Richard, because on last week's program, we had a really serious conversation with John Sweat about the subject of baptism.

And yet, in that serious conversation, I wore this hat, and Richard decided to go onto Facebook and say he could not take me seriously in this hat. So what I have decided is this hat will now become a staple in the program, because I would hate it if anyone took me too seriously.

You know, you just can't make some jokes sometimes, because it goes back to bite you. Hey, that's okay.

That's okay. So I'm thankful that you're here, Richard. I always look forward to our conversations. And today we're talking about something, even though we're going to have some fun. It is a serious conversation.

It's the conversation of patriotism and the faith. And what's brought up this conversation is this Monday coming up is Columbus Day, the day that we celebrate Christopher Columbus. Well, it's the day some people celebrate Christopher Columbus, and some people have decided that celebrating Christopher Columbus is no longer politically correct.

So now they have chosen instead to celebrate other days on the same day. Some people celebrate what's called Indigenous Peoples Day. I still call it Columbus Day. Do you still call it Columbus Day?

Yes. I don't know how much longer that will last in our country, because even here in little old Callahan last year, my daughter told me that her history teacher said that Christopher Columbus was indeed a racist.

So it's made it to the public schools in Callahan. So anyway, sure, sure.

And in reality, you know, there's almost anyone from history can be painted with just about any brush people want to paint with. And that's what people do is they vilify and whatever makes them happy.

And here's one thing I did want to mention since Monday is Columbus Day. And you may have some friends who tell you, you know, you're wrong. You can't say anything about Columbus. You have to you have to only give credence to the Indigenous Peoples.

You can't say anything about the Westerners who came to this land, who, you know, who came to this land and and have built the society that we now live in. You can't you can't give any credit there. You can only speak well of those who came before, because as we all know, prior to the Westerners arriving on the shores of the Americas, the people who lived here knew nothing of war.

They knew nothing of hatred. They knew nothing of stealing or taking. They were a pure people as the driven snow. They had never done anything wrong. They were absolutely sinless until the Westerners came.

Isn't that right, Richard? No, it's not right. It's not right at all. And, you know, it's funny because this last Sunday at church, I was preaching and I talked about how down in Mexico they have actually discovered towers.

That were made out of human skulls. And you know where those human skulls came from? They came from human sacrifices that were made. And to say that the people who lived in the Americas prior to the coming of Westerners were absolutely peaceful.

There was no war or anything. It's just an absolute lie. It's a it's it's it's bankrupt history. It's something that people fantasize about. You know, the whole idea of the everything was so in in this sense of balance with nature and perfect.

No, they were warring for the land before we got here. And when we came that when I say we, the Westerners came, there was warring that came with us, of course, because there was a clash of civilizations and clashes of civilizations happen all the time.

But the and there were some things that our ancestors did that were wrong. And we don't try to whitewash that or say that it wasn't wrong. But at the same time, to simply say that that everything that was going on here was perfect.

And then we came and destroyed it. That's just an absolute reductionist history at best. And it's not true. In fact, I'll mention this. There was a time at church because I made the statement. I said, you know, one of the things that we have to consider, and I said this in a lesson.

This wasn't on a podcast or anything. I said this in on a Wednesday night lesson. I said, one of the things we have to consider is that had the Westerner Westerners not come to the United States, the gospel would not have reached many of the indigenous people, what we typically call Native Americans.

The gospel would have reached them. And I had a guy said, well, that's okay. They didn't need it. And I was like, what do you mean? He says, well, certainly they didn't go to hell. And I was like, well, how did they not go to hell?

If they didn't have Jesus Christ, how did they not go to hell? Do you believe that somebody who doesn't hear the gospel automatically gets a free pass to heaven? If that's true, bring all the missionaries home.

In the Matthew means nothing. Absolutely. Therefore, in all the nations, that means nothing.

Absolutely right. So were there bad things that happened? Absolutely. Should we discount them? No. But at the same time to say that we can't celebrate the progress that has happened and the things, the positive things that happen, and of course, the spreading of the gospel that has happened, that would be wrong.

But that, again, is sort of off topic. We're sort of moving away from the original topic. And the topic today is patriotism. Because again, a lot of the same people who would say can't celebrate Columbus Day would also say that the celebration of anything and everything American is bad.

And then there are those in the church who are now saying that patriotism is bad, that we shouldn't celebrate, that we shouldn't be proud to be Americans, or we shouldn't be thankful or blessed that we are Americans.

And so that becomes a question of how do we handle that? And today we're going to deal with three questions for you, the listener, if you want to kind of keep up with what we're talking about. We're talking about three things.

The first thing we're going to ask is, should we be ashamed of our country? Should we, like many people, have a hatred and disdain for the United States? We're going to talk about that. Then we're going to ask the question, what does the Bible say about the subject of patriotism?

How do we see this from a biblical perspective? And then the third thing is, what about patriotism in worship? Because that is an issue all to itself. So let's begin with the first question. The question of should we be ashamed of our country?

Richard, if you were teaching a class and somebody said, you know what, I'm just ashamed of our country, what would your first thought be in response to that? Well, first, I want to know why.

Why would they even ask the question? What makes them ashamed of the country? Because you need some context where they're starting from. So let's say they brought up racism because we brought over, we had slaves.

We brought slaves over. We enslaved them for 100 years, 150 years, however long it was, before they were set free and seen as human, as people, whatever you want to put that. So let's say the reason they're ashamed of the country because of the history of slavery, the history of racism.

Okay, I agree with you. We shouldn't have had slaves. Racism is wrong. Racism goes directly against the gospel because we're to look at each other as made in the image of God. The color of your skin does not change that.

Each person, whether you're a person of color or you're white or whatever, you're made in the image of God and we're to treat you that way. You're supposed to treat people in that manner. So yes, that was wrong, but that doesn't mean we have to be ashamed of the country as a whole because the way the country was founded and the principles upon what the country was founded with, some would say it wasn't founded on Christian principles, but when you read the Declaration of Independence, you read the Constitutions, you can see principles of Christianity within that endowed by the creator, language of that sense.

They may not have lived up to it very well in some instances, but it was still there. But because like you said in the intro, we brought the gospel, there's nowhere else in the world where you had the freedom to practice your religion without being persecuted.

We know nothing of persecution here. I mean, that's one thing to be very proud of in a nation is that for the Christian standpoint, we have the freedom to worship, to practice our religion, to right now witness without being arrested on the side of the road.

In some places you can be, but there's much in this country to be proud of. No other civilization in history has done what we've done, allowed the freedoms we've allowed, allowed the prosperity to be gained.

People have an equal opportunity to become as much as they want to become. It, whereas you look in other places of the world that are third world countries and they can't get their feet off the ground.

Whereas we were able to create a system and a government that is not ruled by a king or a tyrant. It's a government of the people for the people and by the people and a constitution that protects that.

There's much to be proud of and no reason to hate it because what's the alternative? Show me where in the world everybody else is fleeing to. No one is trying to get out of America. Most other occasions are trying to get to it.

Because why? Because where they live is either destitute and third world, or it's an oppressive regime that they want to get away from. And they want to come here. Why? Because it's the land of opportunity.

It's the land of the free. We have a system that nourishes right now the ability to become more and to be free and to provide and have the luxury of food on your plate. Things we take advantage of here that other people can't.

I remember Mike Rowe talking about this on Ben Shapiro's Sunday special. He said, the things we take for granted here, to be able to go to the bathroom and just mash a lever and it just go away. That's something you don't get in other countries.

But it's normal because we have a country where we've evolved and done these things and had innovations. So yes, like you said in the intro, there's no nations without sin. No people is without sin. No person's without sin.

And we don't overlook that, but we should learn from it. And from what I can understand, we have. Go ahead.

Well, I was going to say, and just to add on to what you were saying, because you mentioned about slavery, we were one of the first to abolish slavery. And we did abolish slavery in our country. And it's no longer a thing.

It is still a thing in many other countries. Slavery is still very much alive in many other countries today. There are slaves in other countries, but there's not slaves in the United States. So again, you're right when you say no countries without sin, but we can at the same time, and as we talked about before the show, we can be proud of our accomplishments without whitewashing our sins.

And that's the part that it seems like it's either one or the other for some people. It's either you have to be everything America has ever done is right. That's not true or everything they've ever done is wrong.

And that's not true either. And so you have to be able to strike a reasonable balance. Like I would say right now, if somebody were to ask me about if somebody were to say, I'm ashamed of our country.

And they said, because we've killed 70 million babies and abortion. Well, yeah, I'm ashamed of that, too. I'm absolutely ashamed that that continues to be a thing and that it continues to exist in this country.

And I pray that it is abolished. I don't pray that slavery or that abortion lessons. I pray that abortion is abolished because it is a barbaric practice, which should not be allowed. And it is allowed, as I think, in part because it is a part of judgment.

We see judgment around us with wicked rulers. And I do think we have wickedness in our leadership right now. I think we have corruption in all areas of government and abortion just as a byproduct of that.

But again, this goes back to, can we say that, like you said, people are still trying to get here? People are still trying to get to America. Very few people are trying to flee America. But many people are still trying to swim the Rio Grande.

You know, they're trying to get through and climb walls and go over land and sea to get to this country. So there is certainly some things for which we could say that they are very positive. So with that, we come to the question of patriotism, because there is a this actually was a question, and it was a question that was sent into the program many months ago, and I just never got around to it because of some other things that were going on, and we were switching formats and some things.

But the question that was asked was, how should the Christian address the issue of patriotism? And I think you would agree with me on Richard that there is a sense in which patriotism can very quickly evolve into idolatry, where people are exalting America as if it is the idol that they are to worship, the God they are to worship.

And while we would say America has many blessings and many good things, we would certainly not do that. So where is the line between patriotism and idolatry? And how do we strike that balance? What are your thoughts on that?

Before I have a few thoughts myself, but I'll let you go first.

Well, I and I sent this to you, I looked up the definition of patriotism, because as you and I were discussing several hours before the program, we brought up nationalism, too, and there's a little bit of a difference between the two of them.

I would say a long time ago, the two were almost synonymous with one another, but now there's been a separation of the two. But patriotism is the quality of being patriotic, devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

OK, I can't see there's anything wrong with being supportive of one's country, especially one like America. And I mean, there's people in Mexico that are very supportive of their country. I mean, everybody has an allegiance to something.

The problem becomes when it becomes all your allegiance to. It's your be all to end all. I'm reminded of Philippians, where Paul says to live in Christ is to die is gain. And because the sum total of his life was Christ, he didn't want to have any idolatry beyond Christ.

Christ is our ultimate focus as a Christian. Whether we eat or drink, whatever we do, we do to glorify God. That is what we do. So when you get the two mixed, I mean, swapped, and now everything's about America and the whole nine yards, then that's where it becomes idolatry.

That's where the line is. There's nothing wrong with, in my opinion, wanting to make sure that especially when we're in this point, we're talking about this today, especially in the environment we're in right now where rights and freedoms are being eroded very quickly and so forth and so on.

There is nothing wrong with the Christian in an effort to protect his neighbor, to love his neighbor, to want to defend those rights and freedoms that are part of this country. And it's patriotic to do so.

However, when the Christian element becomes the backdrop and all it is is about the patriotism, then that's where you get into idolatry. You may have a different avenue to go on that. So I'll turn it over to you and we'll continue from your thoughts.

Well, just interesting while you were talking, I remembered something that I actually said in a sermon. And this was back when I was preaching in Genesis 11, the story of the Tower of Babel. I mentioned that when God separated the nations, he sort of, in a sense, by default created nationalism because he created the idea that people are now separate and it was a judgment, of course.

It was a judgment because when they were all together, they were trying to do that, which God did not want them to do. When they were all together, they were trying to build a tower to make a name for themselves.

Some people believe they were trying to actually get to heaven. And there is some credence to the idea that they were building a porch, which would allow them to essentially be where God is. But that's less important in the text than the idea that they were trying to build a name for themselves.

They were doing what God did not want them to do. He wanted them to go out and spread around the world and to be fruitful and multiply. Instead, they stayed in one place, built for themselves this tower to make a name for themselves.

And God said, nope, you're going to divide and there's going to be different languages. And of course, through that created different nations. And I said in the sermon, I said, God creates nationalism.

He creates the idea that there's different people groups. And some people might say, well, you're misidentifying the idea. Nationalism is negative. And I have what you sent me, which says nationalism is a identification with one's own nation and support for its interest, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

And this is where nationalism takes sort of a negative connotation for many people, because they say it's not wrong to think highly of your country. It's just wrong to think highly of your country in detriment to another country.

But at the same time, is the goal of the United States or is the goal of any other nation to try to unify into some form of one world government? And that's what the United Nations is and things like that.

And we go back to Genesis 11. And when everybody tried to get together and do the same thing, it brought the judgment of God. So the idea that nations are a positive thing is something that I think a lot of people don't think about.

But the difference in the separation of the nations was actually something God did. And he did it so that the people could not come together and essentially be unified in their idolatry. That's what was happening.

It was a unified idolatry. And God said, nope, not going to happen. We're going to divide. And at least with the division, there's not going to be a unified revolt. It at least be a divided revolt. And so that's just I know that sort of took us a little sideways there.

But the idea that we should somehow not see nations as being important, I think is wrong. I think having nations and essentially having separate nations is actually a part of the stay with me, listener, don't check out just yet, is a part of God's restraining grace.

Because if the nations were to unify, and this is what some people believe is going to happen in the end times, is that there's going to be a one world government. But what do they believe? The dispensationalists particularly believe in a one world government coming again.

But what do they believe is going to happen? It's going to be one world government surrounding the antichrist. That's what they believe. So it's not a one world government that's going to come together and have peace and Kumbaya.

It's a one world government that's going to come together and lop the heads off of Christians. This is what again, it's not exactly what I hold to as an eschatology, but the dispensationalists, they've been talking about this for years.

What's the most dangerous thing in the world? One world government, one world religion, one world currency. That's the three things. I know you, Richard, probably remember this back in the 90s, especially when it was all about Tim LaHaye and the left behind the idea of the dispensationalist view.

And the dispensationalist view was look out for three things. One world government, one world religion, one world monetary system. And when you get to those three things, you have reached the most dangerous precipice.

Right. And like I said, I may have taken this way off there, but you get my point. We can be American Christians and say, it is good that America is not China.

Right. Absolutely. But given what China's doing, and I think that's where some people, to go back to what you said before of the extremes of America's perfect or America's evil, and that's your only two camps.

I think there's a third one that's kind of got into the mix because of nationalism and all that that's come up. There's kind of a third category, and that's it doesn't matter what good America has done.

The sins of America means that we need to just abolish all of it and start over. The sins outweigh the good. So it doesn't matter how good you've done, the country's done, because of the evils of slavery, even though we corrected it and other things.

We had to just burn it down and rebuild on the ashes. I think that's where a lot of people are at, and that's where this nationalism comes in, because what was one of Trump's mottos? America first. When their mind, when they hear America first, they think that means nobody else matters.

Well, that's not what he meant, and that's not what America first means. It means America first means we're going to take care of our own. Then we'll help other people. But we need to get our house in order first, and that's actually a biblical concept.

What does the Bible tell men to do with their families? Get your house in order.

You can't keep your house in order. You can't take care of somebody else if your house is not in order.

That's a qualification for a deacon and a pastor. Right.

And a good thought to add to that thought is the idea of when we consider America first, people take issue with that. But if I said from my perspective, my household has to come first before I pay anybody else's bills, before I feed anybody else's children, before I do anything else, I have to do what is necessary for me and my family first.

So well, that's not a Christian thought. Well, no, it is, because the Bible says if I don't take care of my family, I'm worse than an infidel. I'm worse than an unbeliever. And so. Right. Yeah, exactly.

So there is a yeah, it's just interesting when you said that, because that's the key phrase a lot of people keyed in on America first. They didn't like that idea. But what should it be China first if we're in America?

And again, going back to what you said, you're right. Look at what China's doing. Think about, I've got a bone to pick with China in a lot of ways, because many people as my listeners know, my wife works for a company that was based in China and taught Chinese children.

And we have got to see firsthand how China operates in the lives of their citizens. And the things we would not even in America would not even believe the things that are allowed to happen over there, because there is no there's no Democrats and Republicans.

There's no two party, which I understand in America, our parties are broken, but there's not even a semblance of party systems. It's the party. It's the state. It's the and it's Xi Jinping, and that's it.

And there's no checks and balances to hold him accountable for what he's doing.

That's right. And you go to. I remember years ago with the gun control debate, people would always say, well, look at Australia. Look how great Australia is, because they took guns away several years ago.

And now everybody's kumbaya. Everybody's dancing around, surfing on surfboards and saying, good day, mate. All this stuff in Australia. But now look what's happened with the advent of COVID. There's no freedom.

And what once was a penal colony may again become a penal colony because of the inability of the people to stand up for themselves, to have any recourse for their government.

So and that goes back to my original comments. There's nothing wrong with having a love for one's country and wanting to preserve the rights and the freedoms that country affords, especially when knowing those rights and freedoms or what's best for your neighbor.

Yeah. And as anybody says, go ahead.

Well, like you just said, wanting to preserve the First Amendment, wanting to preserve the Second Amendment, wanting to preserve these things that have been necessary and will continue to be necessary for the flourishing of a free people.

These things are necessary. And these are the things that we celebrate when we think of ourselves as patriots. And I would say, I think I know the answer, but I'll ask you. I would say I am a patriot in the sense that I do love my country and the things on which it was founded and not in any way saying it was perfect, but the principles upon which it was founded.

And I think you would agree with that.

Yes. And again, the line becomes blurring what we're told in First John, or maybe it's John, I get them mixed up sometimes, but it says we're to be in the world, but not of the world. We're not citizens, ultimately, of the United States of America.

As Christians, we're citizens of a heavenly kingdom. So that should be our first mindedness, gospel proclamation, doing the work of the kingdom. But in doing the work of the kingdom and gospel proclamation, there comes the love your neighbor as yourself.

We have to obey that as well. And that's where the patriotism comes in because you're trying to protect your neighbor, especially when a regime is trying to just destroy all the freedoms we have. So there's a line to be drawn, and it's a fine line because it's easy to go too far in one area.

So you got to keep your focus in the right mindset. But the Christian can be patriotic, and there's nothing wrong with that. I can't see any word in scripture where that's condemned. And honestly, I don't see a whole lot of like, if you say point to patriotism in the scriptures, well, it's not really there.

But well, it's interesting. You mentioned that was interesting. Mention that because a lot of people would a lot of people who are patriotic and try to bring patriotism into their faith often do point to passages that I think are incorrect.

And this is sort of goes along with something we talked about before the show, the passages that apply to Israel. It's important to note Israel is not America, and America is not Israel. And I would even say this is don't run away screaming now.

But I would even say Israel is not Israel now. I would say the modern state of Israel does not represent the Israel of God. I believe the Israel of God is represented in its fulfillment in the church.

But again, my dispensationalist friends all just freaked out, ran in circles and started screaming. But even still, a lot of people would like quote Second Chronicles 714, if my people who are called by my name would humble themselves and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land.

That's a promise that was given in the old covenant time to Israel. And a lot of people apply that to America. And am I saying that it's wrong to humble yourself to pray and to seek the face of God? No.

But we cannot automatically apply the promises of Israel to the United States. And that's what happens with a lot of passages, citing passages. People will say, well, look at this passage. This is the look at this passage.

If it's not about the United States, if it's not about our nation, I think we have to be very careful with that. I think throwing out passages that were promises to Old Testament Israel that could easily be applied to the church.

I think about the seven churches of Revelation. What was the call to many of those churches? It was to return to your first love, to repent, to cast out the false teachers, the woman Jezebel who deceived the people, and that sort of would fall into the category of a more proper application of the Second Chronicles passage, because it's about what's going on among God's people.

And as much as America is the land that I love, America is not the church and America is not Israel. And like you said before, we are citizens of the kingdom first, and we're citizens of the United States secondarily or tertiary, not even in any way since primarily.

And any passages that I might cite, if somebody said, well, what passages would address patriotism? I might point to Romans, where it says to give honor where honor is due, and that's referring to the governing authority.

So we have a certain responsibility to show honor, and that leads to questions of, well, how do we show that honor and what does it look like? Should we say the Pledge of Allegiance? Should we not? There's debate about that.

Should we sing the National Anthem? All these are questions that people would have. What is that showing honor? Is that not showing honor? Is that putting the state above God? And those are things, and again, those are things people have to work out.

But like you said, there's no passage where Paul says that he was out singing the National Anthem of Rome. But there were many times, especially in the narrative of Acts, where Paul cites his citizenship as a positive thing.

You know, when he was beaten, he was beaten. And what did he say? Is he can't. You can't. You beat me. I'm a Roman citizen. And then everybody freaked out because, wait a minute, we didn't know. I love that story because it's one of the places I go to when people ask me, well, how do we respond to government overreach and things like that?

I say, well, think about it like this. Paul used the power of the law to his advantage when it was needed. He used that advantage. I'm a citizen. Can't. In fact, as far as we know, Paul wasn't crucified.

Paul was beheaded. Why do we believe Paul was beheaded? Because they didn't crucify Roman citizens. They beheaded them because it was considered to be a much more quick and noble form of death, even though I don't want to be beheaded, but I guess given the choice of being beheaded.

Or crucified, I think I'd take beheaded. Yeah, it's over in a second. Sure. Fiction takes days in some cases. Can for sure.

Of course, as big as I am, they'd have to use a few more nails, and it might not take us as long, but the point is the passages where Paul references himself as a Roman citizen and that being a positive could be seen as somewhat not necessarily a pro patriotic, but at least where he's taking advantage of the benefits of being a part of a country.

He's taking advantage of being a citizen, and we can take advantage of that, too. We are Americans by birth, and therefore we have certain rights and privileges that are ours and according to the Constitution are inalienable, meaning that they are not able to be taken or given away.

They're ours. They're inherent to us. So that leads me to the last question we were going to talk about, because we talked about patriotism and the Christian. What about patriotism and worship? I know that this is actually a pretty sticky question because there's a lot of feeling among people that, like, for instance, the whole kneeling during the National Anthem thing.

Right. People boycott the NFL, boycott the NBA, boycott people that are kneeling because they're saying you're disrespecting the flag that people died for what that flag represents, and you're disrespecting it.

And then they say, and so the church should have, one, should have the flag prominently displayed, and two, should sing songs about that flag and should have sermons about what that flag represents. And I think that's a problem for me.

And I don't know, I think I know what your thoughts are, but right away, what do you think about that when people demand patriotism in worship?

There's no place for it. When we come to church, what are we coming to do? Worship God and God alone. In all of life, what is the Christian commanded to worship? Even outside of the church, when you're at home, who are you supposed to worship?

God and God alone. In the Ten Commandments, it says, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Now, that doesn't mean like in numerical succession. As long as God's first, you can have other little gods.

No, before me has the idea of in my presence. That's what that means. You shall have no other gods in my presence. Well, God is everywhere. So we're to have no other gods, period. He is the one true God that we worship.

So when we come together on the Lord's Day to worship, I don't need to be paying any kind of homage to the American flag or singing American patriotic songs or anything like that. I'm there to worship God, my creator through song, through prayer, through the reading of scripture, and through having the word preached to me.

As my other, my co-Sunday school teacher, Johnny Hallman likes to say, to have the devil preached out of me every week because I need it. That's just, that's something he likes to say. But the point is, you're there to be, sit under the teaching of the word and to worship God.

So that's where it separates for me between patriotism and there's no blurring the lines for worship, period. When you come to worship, you're coming. So yes, back in the day, 30 years ago, we don't have it now, but there used to be an American flag up front.

There's also a Christian flag. I remember in RAs when I was a kid at the church there in Callahan, when RAs, you would pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and you pledge allegiance to the American flag.

That was just, you do both as to open up the RA meeting. It was Royal Ambassadors. I don't even know if they still have that. I guess it's something else now.

My daughter Hope went to, it's not RAs. It's something you guys have at your church now. What's it called? The, it's for the kids. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when she went to Juana's at a church in Jacksonville and they did that, they did pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, pledge allegiance to the American flag.