Patriotism and Christianity

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October 5, 2021

Columbus Day is coming and it is common to hear demands that we reject any celebrations because the holiday is based on history which is now determined to be politically incorrect. So, on today's program, Keith is joined by Richard Rhoden to discuss the subject of American history and they go on to discuss the broader topic of patriotism within Christianity.

00:20: Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
00:23: My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.
00:27: Today I am joined by a man who needs no introduction.
00:30: He has been on this show almost as many times as I have.
00:35: Richard Roden, how are you doing, buddy? Doing good, brother.
00:38: It's good to be back.
00:39: Didn't even have a goofy, somewhat serious conversation for a while.
00:44: Yeah, I'm looking forward to fun.
00:45: I think you and I always have a blast and a listener.
00:48: If you don't know Richard, Richard is a deacon in his church.
00:51: He is also a Sunday school teacher.
00:53: He's also one of my best friends.
00:54: We have been friends since high school.
00:57: I love him so much.
00:58: I am literally sleeping in his house.
01:00: Well, it's not really anymore.
01:02: I bought his house and now I am in the house that used to be his.
01:06: In fact, my studio is in the room that used to be his bedroom.
01:09: And if you'll notice the background that I'm having today, uh, where that I, that, that was bad English.
01:14: Let me start again.
01:15: The background that I have today represents the conversation topic that we're going to talk about, because we're going to talk about Christianity and patriotism.
01:23: But before I do that, I have to mention something about Richard, because on last week's program, we had a really serious conversation with John Sweat about the subject of baptism.
01:32: And yet in that serious conversation, I wore this hat and Richard decided to go on to Facebook and say, he could not take me seriously in this hat.
01:41: So what I have decided is this hat will now become a staple in the program because I would hate it.
01:46: If anyone took me too seriously, you know, you just can't make some jokes sometimes because Hey, that's okay.
01:58: That's okay.
01:58: So I'm thankful that you're here, Richard.
02:01: I always look forward to our conversations.
02:02: And today we're talking about something, even though we're going to have some fun.
02:05: It is a serious conversation.
02:06: It's the conversation of patriotism and the faith.
02:09: And what's brought up this conversation is this Monday coming up is Columbus day, the day that we celebrate Christopher Columbus.
02:17: Well, it's the day some people celebrate Christopher Columbus.
02:21: And some people have decided that celebrating Christopher Christopher Columbus is no longer politically correct.
02:27: So now they have chosen instead to celebrate other day, other days on the same day, some people celebrate what's called indigenous people's day.
02:36: Uh, I still call it Columbus day.
02:38: You still call it Columbus day? Yes.
02:40: Um, I don't have, I don't know how much longer that'll last in our country.
02:44: Cause even here in little old Callahan last year, my daughter told me that her history teacher said that Christopher Columbus was indeed a racist.
02:54: So it's made it to the, to the public schools in Callahan.
02:58: So anyway, sure.
03:00: Sure.
03:00: And in reality, uh, you know, there's there almost anyone from history can be painted with just about any brush people want to paint with.
03:11: And that's what people do is they, they, uh, they, they vilify and whatever makes them make some happy.
03:16: And here's one thing I did want to mention since Monday is, uh, Columbus day, and you may have some friends who tell you, you know, you're wrong.
03:24: You can't say anything about Columbus.
03:25: You have to, you have to only give credence to the indigenous peoples.
03:28: You can't say anything about the Westerners who came to this land, who, uh, you know, who came to this land and, and have built the society that we now live in, you can't, you can't give any credit there.
03:39: You can only speak well of those who came before, because as we all know, uh, prior to the Westerners arriving on the shores of the Americas, the people who lived here knew nothing of war.
03:51: They knew nothing of hatred.
03:53: They knew nothing of stealing or taking.
03:55: They were a pure people as the driven snow.
03:58: They had never done anything wrong.
04:00: They were absolutely sinless until the Westerners came in that right.
04:06: Richard, no, it's not right.
04:10: It's not right at all.
04:11: And, and, you know, it's funny because this last Sunday at church, I was preaching and I talked about how, uh, down in Mexico, they have actually discovered towers that were made out of human skulls and you know, those human skulls came from, they came from human sacrifices that were made.
04:28: And, uh, to say that the people who lived in the Americas prior to the coming of Westerners were absolutely peaceful, there was no war or anything.
04:34: It's just an absolute lie.
04:36: It's a, it's, it's, it's bankrupt history.
04:38: It's something that people, uh, fantasize about, you know, the whole idea of the, the, the, everything was so in, in this sense of balance with nature and perfect.
04:49: No, they were warring for the land before we got here.
04:52: Uh, and when we came there, when I say we, the Westerners came, there was warring that came with us, of course, because there was a clash of civilizations and clashes of civilizations happen all the time, but the, and there were some things that our ancestors did that were wrong and we don't try to whitewash that or say that it wasn't wrong, but at the same time to simply say that, that everything that was going on here was perfect and then we came and destroyed it.
05:17: That's just an absolute, uh, re reductionist history at best.
05:23: And it's not true.
05:24: Uh, in fact, I'll mention this.
05:26: There was a time at church, uh, because I made the statement, I said, you know, one of the things that we have to consider, and I said this in a lesson, this wasn't on a podcast or anything, I said this in, in, on a Wednesday night lesson, I said, uh, one of the things we have to consider is that had the Westerner Westerners not come to the United States, um, the gospel would not have reached many of the indigenous people, the, what we typically call native Americans, the gospel wouldn't have reached them.
05:53: And I had a guy said, well, that's okay.
05:55: They didn't need it.
05:56: And I was like, what do you, what do you mean? He says, well, certainly they didn't go to hell.
06:01: And I was like, well, how did they not go to hell? If they didn't have Jesus Christ, how did they not go to hell? Do you believe that somebody who doesn't hear the gospel automatically gets a free pass to heaven? If that's true, bring all the missionaries home.
06:11: Uh, in the Matthew means nothing.
06:16: Absolutely.
06:16: Therefore in all the nations, that means nothing.
06:21: Absolutely right.
06:22: So, you know, there's, were there bad things that happened? Absolutely.
06:26: Should we discount them? No.
06:28: But at the same time to say that, uh, we can't celebrate the, the progress that has happened in the things, the positive things that have happened.
06:36: And of course, the spreading of the gospel that has happened, uh, that would be, that would be wrong.
06:41: But that again is sort of off topic.
06:43: We're, we're sort of moving away from the original topic.
06:45: And the topic today is patriotism because again, a lot of the same people who would say can't celebrate Columbus day would also say that the celebration of anything and everything American is bad.
06:57: And then there are those in the church who are now saying that patriotism is bad, that we shouldn't celebrate, that we shouldn't be proud to be, uh, Americans or we shouldn't be thankful or blessed, uh, that we are Americans.
07:10: And so that becomes a question of, um, Of how do we handle that? And that's really what today we're going to deal with three questions for, for you, the listener, if you want to kind of keep up with what we're talking about, we're talking about three things.
07:23: The first thing we're going to ask is should we be ashamed of our country? Should we, should we like many people have a hatred and disdain for the United States? We're going to talk about that.
07:32: Then we're going to ask the question, what does the Bible say about the subject of patriotism? How do we, how do we see this from a biblical perspective? And then the third thing is what about patriotism in worship? Because that is an issue all to itself.
07:46: So let's begin with the first question.
07:48: Uh, the question of, should we be ashamed of our country? Richard, if some, if, if, if somebody, if you were teaching a class and somebody said, you know what, I'm just ashamed of our country, what would, what would your first thought be in response to that? Well, first I want to know why, you know, why would they even ask the question? What makes them ashamed of the country? Cause you need some context where they're starting from.
08:10: So let's say they brought up, um, racism because we brought over, we had slaves, we brought slaves over, we enslaved them for a hundred years, 150 years, however long it was, um, before there was, they were set free and seen as human, as people, whatever you want to, however you want to put that.
08:31: So let's say the reason they're ashamed of the country because of the history of slavery, the history of racism.
08:36: Okay.
08:39: I agree with you.
08:40: We shouldn't have had slaves.
08:43: Racism is wrong.
08:45: It's racism goes directly against the gospel because we're to look at each other as made in the image of God.
08:51: The color of your skin does not change that each person, whether you're a person of color or you're white or whatever, you're made in the image of God and we're to treat you that way.
09:00: You're supposed to treat people in that manner.
09:04: So yes, that was wrong, but that doesn't mean we have to be ashamed of the country as a whole, because the way the country was founded and the principles upon what the country was founded with, some would say it wasn't founded on Christian principles, but when you read the declaration of independence, you read the constance, you can see principles of Christian, Christianity within that, endowed by the creator and, you know, language of that, uh, since they may not necessarily have lived up to it very well in some instances, but it was still there, but because like you said, in the, in the intro, we brought the gospel.
09:40: There's nowhere else in the world where you had the freedom to practice your religion without being persecuted.
09:47: We know nothing to persecution here.
09:49: I mean, that's one thing to be very proud of is in a nation is that for Christian standpoint, we have the freedom to worship, to practice our religion, to, um, right now witness without being arrested on the side of the road in some, some places you can be, but there's much of this country to be proud of no other civilization in history has done what we've done, allowed the freedoms we've allowed, allowed the prosperity to be gained.
10:19: People have an equal opportunity to become as much as they want to become.
10:23: It, whereas you look in other places of the world, uh, that are third world countries and they can't get their feet off the ground, whereas we were able to create a system and a government that is not ruled by a King or a tyrant.
10:38: It's a government of the people for the people and by the people and a constitution that protects that.
10:45: There's much to be proud of and no reason to hate it because what's the, what's the alternative.
10:51: Show me, show me where in the world everybody else is fleeing to.
10:55: No one is trying to get out of America.
10:58: Most other occasions are trying to get to it because why? Because where they live is either, um, destitute and third world, or it's an oppressive regime that they want to get away from and they want to come here.
11:13: Why? Because it's the land of opportunity.
11:14: It's the land of the free.
11:15: We have a system that nourishes right now.
11:20: The ability to become more and to be free and to provide and have the luxury of food on your plate.
11:28: Things we take advantage of here that other people can't.
11:31: I remember talking, Mike Rowe talking about this.
11:33: He said on, uh, on Ben Shapiro Sunday special, he said, the things we take for granted here to be able to go to the bathroom and just mash a lever and it just go away.
11:43: That's something you don't get in other countries, but we just, it's normal because we have a country where we we've evolved and done these things and had innovations.
11:55: So yes, there's, like you said, the intro, there's not no nations without sin.
12:00: No people is without sin.
12:01: No persons without sin.
12:03: And we don't overlook that, but we should learn from it.
12:07: And from what I can understand, we have go ahead.
12:10: Well, I was going to say, and just to add onto what you were saying, because you mentioned about, uh, slavery, we are, uh, we were one of the first to abolish slavery.
12:22: And we did abolish slavery and our country.
12:25: And, um, it's no longer a thing.
12:28: Uh, it is still a thing in many other countries.
12:31: Slavery is still very much alive in many other countries today.
12:35: There are slaves in other countries, but there's not slaves in the United States.
12:39: So, uh, again, I I'm I'm you you're right.
12:43: When you say no countries without sin, uh, but we can, at the same time, and as I, as we talked about before the show, we can be proud of our accomplishments without whitewashing our sins.
12:53: And, and that's, that's the part that it seems like it's either one or the other for some people.
12:58: It's either you, you have to be everything America's ever done is right.
13:01: That's not true or everything they've ever done is wrong.
13:04: And that's not true either.
13:06: And so you have to be able to strike a reasonable balance.
13:10: Like I would say right now, if somebody were to ask me about, if somebody were to say, I'm ashamed of our country and they said, because we've killed 70 million babies and abortion.
13:19: Well, yeah, I'm ashamed of that too.
13:21: I'm absolutely ashamed that that continues to be a thing and that it continues to exist in this country.
13:27: And, uh, I pray that it is abolished.
13:30: I don't pray that slavery or that abortion lessons.
13:32: I pray that abortion is abolished because it is a barbaric practice, uh, which is, uh, should not be allowed.
13:40: And it is allowed as I, as I think is in, in, in, in part, um, because it is a, a part of, of judgment.
13:49: You know, we, the, we see judgment around us with wicked rulers.
13:52: And I do think we have wicked wickedness in our leadership right now.
13:57: I think we have corruption in all areas of government.
14:00: Um, and, and abortion just as a by-product of that.
14:05: But again, uh, this goes back to, can we, can we say that, like you said, uh, people are still trying to get here.
14:16: People are still trying to get to America.
14:18: Very few people are trying to flee America, but, uh, many people are, you know, uh, still trying to swim the Rio Grande, you know, they're trying to get through, uh, and, and, and climb walls and, uh, go over, uh, land and sea to get to this country.
14:37: So there is, there is certainly some things for which we could say that there are very positive.
14:43: Um, so with that, we come to the question of patriotism because there is a.
14:54: There, there, this actually was a question and it was a question that was sent into the program many months ago.
15:01: And I just never got around to it, uh, because of some other things that were going on and we were switching formats and some things, but the question that was asked was how should the Christian address the issue of patriotism and I think you was, you would agree with me on Richard, that there is a sense in which patriotism can very quickly evolve into idolatry where people are exalting America as if it is the, the idol that they are to worship the God they are to worship.
15:35: And, and while we would say America has many, uh, many blessings and many good things, we would certainly not do that.
15:42: So, so where is the line between patriotism and idolatry and how do we strike that balance? What, what, what are your thoughts on that? I have a few thoughts myself, but I'll let you go first.
15:56: Well, I, uh, and I sent this to you, I looked up the definition of patriotism because as you and I were discussing, um, several hours before the program, we brought up nationalism too.
16:08: And there's a little bit of a difference between the two of them.
16:10: I would say a long time ago, the two were almost synonymous with one another, but now there's been a separation of the two, but patriotism is the quality of being patriotic, devotion to and vigor support for one's country.
16:23: Okay.
16:25: I can't see there's anything wrong with being supportive of one's country, especially one like America.
16:30: And I mean, there's, there's people in Mexico that are very supportive of their country.
16:35: I mean, every, everybody has an allegiance to something.
16:38: The problem becomes when it becomes all your allegiance to it's your be all to end all, um, I'm reminded of Philippians.
16:49: Where, you know, uh, Paul says to live in crisis, die is gain.
16:55: Um, and, uh, because the sum total of his life was, was Christ.
17:00: He didn't want to have any idolatry beyond Christ.
17:03: Christ is our ultimate focus as a Christian where to, whether we eat or drink, whatever we do, we do to glorify God, that is what we do.
17:12: So when you get the two mixed, I mean, swapped, and now everything's about America and the whole nine yards, then that's where it becomes idolatry.
17:24: That's where the line is.
17:26: There's nothing wrong with, in my opinion, wanting to make sure that especially when we're, that's one of the reasons we're talking about this day, especially in the environment we're in right now, where rights and freedoms are being eroded very quickly and so forth and so on, there is nothing wrong with the Christian in an effort to protect his neighbor, to love his neighbor, to want to, um, defend those rights and freedoms that are part of this country and it's patriotic to do so.
17:59: However, when the Christian element becomes the backdrop and all it is is about the, the patriotism, then that's where you get into idolatry.
18:10: You may have a different avenue to go on that.
18:12: So I'll turn it over to you and we'll continue from your, uh, your thoughts.
18:18: Well, just interesting while you were talking, I remembered something that, um, I actually said in a sermon and this was back when I was preaching in Genesis, uh, 11, uh, the story of the tower of Babel, uh, I mentioned that when God separated the nations, he sort of, uh, in a sense by default created nationalism because he, he created the idea that people are now separate and are, and, and have, have a, um, and it was a judgment, of course.
18:52: It was a judgment because when they were all together, they were trying to do that, which God did not want them to do.
18:59: When they were all together, they were trying to build a tower to make a name for themselves.
19:03: Some people believe they were trying to actually get to heaven.
19:06: And there is some, there is some credence to the idea that they were building a porch, which would allow them to essentially be where God is, but that's, that that's less important in the text than the idea that they were trying to build a name for themselves.
19:18: They were doing what God did not want them to do.
19:20: He wanted them to go out and spread around the world and to, uh, be fruitful and multiply instead, they stayed in one place built for themselves, this tower to, to make a name for themselves.
19:30: And God said, nope, you're going to divide and there's going to be different languages.
19:33: And of course, through that created different nations.
19:36: And, um, you know, and I said in the sermon, I said, God creates nationalism.
19:41: He creates the idea that there's, there's different people groups.
19:44: And some people might say, well, well, well, well, you're, you're, you're miss, you're miss, miss identifying the idea nationalism is negative.
19:51: And I have the, I have what you sent me, which says nationalism is a, uh, identification with one's own nation and support for its interest, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.
20:03: And this is where nationalism takes sort of a negative connotation for many people, because they say it's, it's not, it's not wrong to think highly of your country.
20:11: It's just wrong to think highly of your country in, in detriment to another country.
20:15: But at the same time, uh, is the goal of the United States or is the goal of any other nation, uh, to, to try to unify into some form of one world government.
20:30: And that's the, that's what like the United nations is and things like that.
20:34: And we go back to Genesis 11 and when everybody tried to get together and do the same thing, it brought the judgment of God.
20:41: So the idea that there, that nations are, are, are a positive thing is something that I think a lot of people don't think about, but the difference in the separation of the nations was actually something God did and he did it so that the people could not come together and, and, and essentially be unified in their idolatry, that's what was happening.
21:01: It was, it was a unified idolatry and God said, nope, not going to happen.
21:04: We're going to, we're going to divide.
21:06: And at least with the division, there's not going to be a unified revolt at least be a divided revolt.
21:14: And, uh, so that's just, you know, I know that sort of took us a little sideways there, but the idea that, um, the idea that we should somehow, uh, not see nations as being important, I think is, is, is wrong.
21:28: I think, I think having nations, uh, and essentially having separate nations is actually a part of the.
21:37: And stay with me, listener.
21:38: I don't, don't check out just yet is a part of God's re re restraining grace, because if the nations were to unify, and this is what some people believe is going to happen in the end times is that there's going to be a one world government, but what do they believe the dispensationalists particularly believe in a one world government coming again? But what do they believe is going to happen? It's going to be one world government surrounding the antichrist.
22:04: That's what they believe.
22:05: They, so it's not a one world government that's going to come together and, and have peace and Kumbaya.
22:10: It's a one girl government.
22:11: That's going to come together and lop the heads off of Christians.
22:14: This is what, you know, again, this is not exactly what I hold to as an eschatology, but the dispensationalists, you know, they've been talking about this for years, what's the most dangerous thing in the world, one world government, one world religion, one world currency.
22:25: That's the three things.
22:26: If I don't know if you, I know you, Richard probably remember this back in the nineties, especially when, when it was all about, you know, Tim LaHaye and the left behind the idea of the, the, uh, the dispensationalist view and the dispensationalist view was look out for three things, one world government, one world religion, one world monetary system.
22:46: And when you get to those three things, you have reached the most dangerous precipice, right? And like I said, I may have taken this way off there, but you get, you get my point that we can be American Christians and say, it is good that America is not China, right? Absolutely.
23:08: But given what's China's doing, and I think that's where some people to go back to what you said before of the extremes of America's perfect or America's evil, and that's your only two camps.
23:18: I think there's a third one that's kind of got into the mix because, because of nationalism and, and all that has come up.
23:27: Um, there's kind of a third category and that's, um, it doesn't matter what good America has done.
23:34: The sins of America means that we need to just abolish all of it and start over.
23:38: The sins outweigh the good.
23:41: So it doesn't matter how good you've done.
23:43: The country's done because of the evils of slavery, even though we corrected it.
23:48: And other things we had to just burn it down and rebuild on the ashes.
23:54: Um, I think that's where a lot of people are at and that's where this nationalism comes in, because what was one of Trump's mottos, America first, when they're mine, when they hear America first, they think that means nobody else matters.
24:05: Well, that's not what he meant.
24:07: And that's not what America first means.
24:09: It means America first means we're going to take care of our own.
24:13: Then we'll help other people, but we need to get our house in order first.
24:17: And that's actually a biblical concept.
24:19: What does the Bible tell men to do with their families? Get your house in order.
24:23: Keep your house in order.
24:25: Right.
24:25: You can't take care of somebody else.
24:26: If you're, if, if your house is not an order, you know, and that's the qualification for a deacon and a pastor.
24:32: Right.
24:33: And a good thought to add to that thought is the idea of when we consider America first, people take issue with that.
24:41: But if I said from my perspective, um, my household has to come first before, you know, before I pay anybody else's bills, before I feed anybody else's children, before I do anything else, I have to do what is necessary for me and my family first.
24:58: So we went, well, that's not a Christian thought.
24:59: Well, no, it is because the Bible says, if I, if I don't take care of my family, I'm worse than an infidel.
25:04: I'm worse than an unbeliever.
25:05: And so, yeah, exactly.
25:08: So, so there, there is a, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting when you said that, cause that is that that's the key phrase.
25:14: A lot of people keyed in on America first.
25:16: They didn't like that idea, but you know, what, what should it be China first if we're in America and again, going back to what you said, you're right, look at what China's doing.
25:28: Think about, you know, I I've got a, I've got a bone to pick with China in a lot of ways, because, you know, many people, as my listeners know, my wife works for a company that was based in China and taught Chinese children, and we have got to see firsthand how China operates in the lives of their, uh, of their citizens.
25:49: And the things, the things we would not even in America would not even believe the things that are allowed to happen over there, because there is no, there's no Democrats and Republicans.
25:59: There's no two party, which I understand in America, our parties are broken, but there's not even a semblance of party systems.
26:05: It's the party.
26:06: It's the state.
26:07: It's the, and it's, it's Xi Jinping and that's it.
26:11: And there's no checks and balances to hold him accountable for what he's doing.
26:14: That's right.
26:15: And you, and you go to, uh, you know, I remember years ago with the gun control debate, people would always say, well, look at Australia, look how great Australia is because, you know, they took guns away several years ago and now everybody's, you know, Kumbaya everybody's dancing around, surfing on surfboards and saying, you know, good day, mate, you know, and all this stuff and Australia.
26:36: But now look, what's happened with the advent of COVID there's no freedom.
26:42: And what once, what, what once was a penal colony may again become a penal colony because of the, uh, the inability of the people to stand up for themselves to, to have any recourse for their government.
26:56: So.
26:58: So that's, and that goes back to my original comments.
27:01: There's nothing wrong with having a love for one's country and wanting to preserve, uh, the rights and the freedoms of that country at Ford's, especially when knowing those rights and freedoms, uh, or what's best for your neighbor and as anybody says, go ahead.
27:21: Well, I'll say, well, like you just said, wanting to preserve the first amendment, wanting to preserve the second amendment, wanting to preserve these things that are, have been necessary and will continue to be necessary for the flourishing of a free people, these things are necessary.
27:39: And, um, these are the things that we, we celebrate when we, you know, when we think of ourselves as patriots.
27:45: And I would say, I think I know the answer, but I'll ask you anyway, I would say I am a patriot in the sense that I do love, uh, my country and the things on which it was founded.
27:56: And, uh, not dis not in any way saying it was perfect, but the, the, the principles upon which it was founded.
28:05: And I think you would agree with that.
28:08: Yes.
28:08: And, uh, again, the line becomes blurring what we're told in, in first John, or maybe it's John, I get them mixed up sometimes, but it says we're to be in the world, but not of the world.
28:20: We're not citizens ultimately of the United States of America.
28:24: As Christians, we're citizens of a heavenly kingdom.
28:27: So that should be our first mindedness gospel proclamation, doing the work of the kingdom.
28:32: But in doing the work of the kingdom and gospel proclamation, there comes the love your neighbor as yourself.
28:39: We have to obey that as well.
28:41: And that's where the patriotism comes in because you're trying to protect your neighbor, especially when a regime is trying to just destroy all the freedoms we So there's a line to be drawn and it's a fine line because it's easy to go too far in one area.
28:57: So you got to keep your focus in the right mindset, but the Christian can be patriotic and it's not going to, there's nothing wrong with that.
29:06: I can't see anywhere in scripture where that's condemned.
29:09: And honestly, I don't see a whole lot of like, if you were to say point to patriotism in the scriptures, well, it's not really there, but well, I, it's interesting.
29:18: You mentioned that was interesting.
29:21: You mentioned that because a lot of people would, a lot of people who are patriotic and try to bring patriotism into their faith often do point to passages that I think are incorrect.
29:32: And this is sort of goes along with something we talked about before the show, the passages that apply to Israel.
29:39: It's important.
29:40: It's important to note Israel is not America and America is not Israel.
29:44: And I would even say, and this is, you know, don't, don't run away screaming now, but I would even say Israel is not Israel now, I would say the modern state of Israel does not represent the Israel of God.
30:00: I believe the Israel of God is, is represented and it's fulfillment in the church, but again, my dispensationalist friends all just freaked out and ran in circles and started screaming.
30:12: But even still, a lot of people would like quote 2nd Chronicles 7.14.
30:17: If my people who are called by my name would humble themselves and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land.
30:25: That's a promise that was given in the old covenant time to Israel.
30:30: And a lot of people apply that to America.
30:33: And am I saying that it's wrong to, uh, to humble yourself, to pray and to seek the face of God? No, but we cannot automatically apply the promises of Israel to the United States.
30:47: And that's what happens with a lot of passages.
30:50: You talk about citing passages.
30:51: People will say, well, look at this passage.
30:52: This is the look at this passage.
30:54: If it's not about United States, if it's not about our nation, uh, I think we have to be very careful with that.
31:01: I think, uh, I think throwing out passages that were promises to old Testament Israel, um, that could easily be applied to the church.
31:10: Um, I think about the seven churches of revelation, what was the call to many of those churches? It was to return to your first love, to repent, to cast out the false teachers, you know, the, the woman Jezebel who, who, you know, deceived the people, you know, and that sort of would fall into the category of a more proper application of the second, second chronicles passage, because it's, it's about what's going on among God's people.
31:34: And as much as, as much as America is, um, the land that I love, uh, America is not the church and America is not Israel.
31:45: And like you said before, we are citizens of the, the, the kingdom first, and we're citizens of the United States, uh, secondarily or tertiary early, not, not even in any way, since primarily, and, um, you know, if we, any passages that I might cite, if somebody said, well, what passages would address patriotism? I might point to Romans where it says to give honor where honor is due.
32:13: Um, you know, and that's referring to the governing authority.
32:16: So we have a certain responsibility to show honor and that leads to questions of, well, how, how do we show that honor? And what, what does it look like? You know, should we say the pledge of allegiance? Should we not? There's debate about that.
32:31: Um, you know, should we sing the national anthem? All these are questions that people would have.
32:35: What is, is that showing honor? Is that not showing honor? Uh, you know, is that, is that putting the state above God? And those are, those are things.
32:42: And again, those are things people have to work out, but, you know, I, like you said, I, there's no passage where Paul says, you know, that he was out singing the, the, the, the national anthem of Rome, but there were many times, especially in the narrative of acts where Paul cites his citizenship as a, as a positive thing, you know, when he was beaten, he was beaten and what did he say is he can't, you can't, you beat me.
33:13: I'm a Roman citizen.
33:14: And then everybody freaked out because wait a minute.
33:16: We didn't know.
33:17: We didn't know.
33:18: I love that story because it's one of the places I go to when people, when people ask me, well, how do we respond to government overreach and things like that? I say, well, think about it like this.
33:29: Um, Paul used the power of the law to his advantage when it, when it was needed.
33:37: You know, he used that advantage.
33:39: I'm a citizen.
33:40: Can't.
33:40: In fact, as far as we know, Paul wasn't crucified.
33:43: Paul was beheaded.
33:45: Why do we believe Paul was beheaded? Because you didn't, they didn't crucify Roman citizens.
33:49: They beheaded them because it was considered to be a much more quick and, uh, uh, noble form of death.
33:56: You know, even though I don't, I, I, I don't want to be beheaded, but I guess given the choice of being beheaded or crucified, I think I'd take the headed over in a second, um, crucifixion takes days in some cases.
34:11: Can for sure, of course, as big as, as big as I am, they'd have to use a few more nails and it might take, might not take as long, but, um, but the point is the, the passages where Paul references himself as a Roman citizen.
34:28: And that being a positive could be seen as somewhat, not necessarily a pro patriotic, but at least where he's taking advantage of the benefits of being a part of a country.
34:39: He's, he's taking advantage of being a citizen and, uh, and we can, you know, we can take advantage of that too.
34:45: We are, we are Americans by birth and therefore we have certain, uh, rights and privileges that are, that are ours.
34:53: And, um, and according to the constitution are inalienable, meaning that they are, are not, they are not able to be taken or given away.
35:02: They're ours.
35:03: They they're inherent to, to us.
35:07: So that leads me to the last question we were going to talk about.
35:10: Cause we talked about patriotism and the Christian, what about patriotism and worship? Um, I, I, I know that this is actually a pretty sticky question because there are, there's a lot of feeling among people that like, for instance, the whole kneeling during the national Anthem thing, people, people, you know, NFL, you know, people boycott the NFL boycott, the NBA boycott, you know, people that are kneeling because they're saying you're disrespecting the flag that, that people died for that, for the, for what that flag represents and you're disrespecting it.
35:59: And then they, they, they say, and so the church should have one should have the flag prominently displayed and two should sing songs about that flag and should have sermons about what that flag represents.
36:16: And I think that's, that's a, that's a problem for me.
36:20: And I don't know, you know, I think I know what your thoughts are, but, but right away, you know, what are, what do you think about that? When people demand patriotism in worship, there's no place for it.
36:33: When we come to church, what are we coming to do? Worship God and God alone in all of life.
36:44: What is the Christian commanded to worship? Even outside of the church, when you're at home, who are you supposed to worship God and God alone in, uh, the 10 commandments that says thou shall have no other gods before me.
36:58: Now that doesn't mean like in numerical succession, as long as God's first, you can have other little gods.
37:03: No, before me has the idea of in my presence.
37:07: That's what that means.
37:08: You should have no other gods in my presence.
37:10: Well, God is everywhere.
37:12: So we're to have no other gods, period.
37:15: He is the one true God.
37:16: That's who we worship.
37:17: So when we come together on the Lord's day to worship, I don't need to be paying any kind of homage to the American flag or singing American patriotic songs or anything like that.
37:29: I'm there to worship God, my creator through song, through prayer, through the reading of scripture and through having the word preached to me as my other, my co Sunday school teacher, Johnny Coleman likes to say to have the devil preached out on me every week.
37:44: Cause I need it.
37:45: That's just, that's something he likes to say.
37:48: But the point is you're there to be, um, sit under the teaching of the word and to worship God.
37:55: So there's, that's where it separates for me between patriotism and there's no blurring the lines for worship period.
38:06: When you're going to worship, you're coming.
38:08: So yes, back in the day, you know, 30 years ago, um, we don't have it now, but there used to be an American flag up front, but there's also a Christian flag.
38:18: I remember in our age when I was a kid at the, uh, at the church there in Callahan, um, when our age, you would pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and you pledge allegiance to the American flag.
38:31: That was just, you do both as to open up the RA meeting was Royal ambassadors.
38:35: I don't even know if they still have that.
38:36: I guess it's something else now, but my daughter Hope went to, uh, it's not our age.
38:44: It's, um, something you guys have at your church now.
38:48: What's it called? The, um, it's for the kiddos.
38:52: Oh, wow.
38:52: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:53: Yeah.
38:53: But when she went to Juana's at a church in Jacksonville and they did that, they did pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, pledge allegiance to the American flag.
39:02: Yeah.
39:03: And, and they, and they sang extra verses to Jesus loves me, which I did not even know exists.
39:09: Did you know there's extra verses? Yes.
39:12: I have no idea what they are.
39:14: I knew there was more to it than just that.
39:17: I was, I was stunned.
39:20: I was absolutely stunned because Jesus loves me.
39:22: This I know for the Bible tells me.
39:24: So that was the one I knew.
39:25: And then it come up, Jesus loves me when I'm bad, even though it makes him sad.
39:31: I was like, no, this is, but it's a thing.
39:34: It's like, if you look it up, it's they didn't invent it.
39:37: It was the, I'm sorry, off the subject, but, but, but no, I don't believe there should be any room for that in, in worship whatsoever.
39:45: Um, now if you have an American flag in the back of the sanctuary, am I going to say your church is a hair is full of heresy? No, but if you got, if you're in there telling, if you're preaching sermons about the American flag or patriotism and that, okay.
40:05: Um, first of all, you're, you're adding stuff to the texts.
40:09: It ain't there.
40:10: You gotta be, unless there's a direct application.
40:13: Somehow.
40:13: I mean, like Romans 13.
40:14: Okay.
40:14: You can directly make application from that to what we as Christians and how we're supposed to act underneath the governing authorities that we have.
40:24: That's a direct application, but like you're talking about having songs and sermons that are centered around, like, like making it a topical thing.
40:32: No, no, I'm not there to worship the flag or America.
40:35: I'm there to worship God.
40:37: So, yeah.
40:38: And that's the, I'll give you a couple of thoughts because, uh, you know, a few years ago I was, uh, visiting another church in Jacksonville, not one, not ours, but I was visiting another church while I was there, um, went into the sanctuary and I, I was taken aback by all of the representations of America.
41:06: There were two banners up, you know, the pulpit, and then there were a banner on either side.
41:11: Both banners were American, uh, something about America.
41:16: It was, it was, you know, God bless America and had American flag that looked like it had been maybe, uh, uh, crocheted or stitched by, it was, it was a handmade banner.
41:27: A lot of churches do that.
41:28: A lot of ladies make handmade band, which is fine, but it was, it was, you know, God bless America and silver letters.
41:35: And then on the other side, it was, you know, uh, something like support our troops or something, but it was both behind the pulpit or behind and beside the pulpit.
41:43: Then I, I began to look around because that's so caught my eye.
41:47: I began to look around and I noticed on the chancel, there were American flags.
41:52: And then behind me, I looked in the back, there were several flags.
41:57: There were state flags and, you know, but, but American flags and you walk up and then it would, there were little placards and it said, you know, this flag flew over a state Capitol.
42:06: So like, this was like an important flag and they had a curio cabinet in the sanctuary, this was not in the Narthex or the four-year or the pastor's office.
42:15: This was in the sanctuary.
42:19: It was a curio cabinet.
42:21: And inside that, that, that cabinet, you know, a glass covered cabinet, there was like a bust of Abraham Lincoln.
42:27: And there was a, yeah, no, I'm not, no joke.
42:30: There was all kinds of, you know, like a small miniature copy of the constitution, like all this stuff.
42:37: And it was, it, it, it almost seemed like, I was like, this is, this, this church has committed itself to being the, the, the America is, is what we're going to focus our attention on when we, when we come here.
42:56: And again, I'm not going to name the church.
42:58: You know, I'm not, I don't have any people that I, you know, I'm not intending to hurt anybody's feelings or anything, but when, when I saw that, it really struck me and, uh, you know, for years, if anybody goes back to my old YouTube videos, they'll see for years, you know, we had an American flag on the chancel at our church.
43:17: Uh, it was just there, you know, it was just something that was just a part of the, the look.
43:22: Well, if you, uh, a while back, we decided to re redo our sanctuary and we took our entire chancel out, rebuilt the entire front of the chancel, which is, you know, a lot of people call it stage.
43:34: I don't like the word stage, but the whole front area, and we chose to move the flags because we had them again.
43:41: We've been there for years.
43:42: We chose to move them to a different location.
43:45: And that was a decision made by the elders.
43:47: Uh, and it's, they're no longer in the sanctuary.
43:51: And, uh, we did that for the very reason, what you just said, when we come in and we're looking at the front, we should see something other than a representation of our country, we should see what the focus of our faith is that we see the, the pulpit, which holds the word of God.
44:08: We see the cross, we see the table, which is done in remembrance of Christ.
44:12: These are the focal points of worship.
44:15: These are the things that we point to in worship and anybody, if anybody wants to, it thinks I'm exaggerating.
44:22: When I say this, there are some churches that go so far into the patriotism that it cannot be seen as anything other than idolatry.
44:29: And all you need to do is look up, you know, just YouTube, Google patriotism, idolatry, and, and in the churches, and you will see where it's obviously stopped being about Christ and about the gospel, and it's about the exaltation of America.
44:48: And that is, I think, as you said, it's, there's no place for that.
44:53: No, no, the church you just described to me sound like it would be a display on July 4th in a museum or something, you know, and it's not, it was, it was there every Sunday, you know, deal, this was how they, this is how they saw the, and again, I think that it's that whole pendulum swinging thing, because you have the guys who, you know, who kneel and they said, well, we're not going to kneel.
45:17: We're going to make everything red, white, and blue.
45:19: We're going to bleed red, white, and blue.
45:20: This is going to be who we are.
45:23: And it's.
45:25: Again, it's like brother Andy says at our church, you know, oftentimes the problem is in the ditches.
45:30: You go too far to one side.
45:31: You're in this ditch.
45:32: You go too far to the other side.
45:33: You're in this ditch.
45:34: It's about finding that, that point where it's the right, you know, can we be patriotic? Yes.
45:40: But can we, should we allow our patriotism to become idolatry? Absolutely not.
45:46: And if you don't think people do, uh, again, all you need to do is spend just a few minutes looking up some videos and you will see what has clearly gone from patriotism to idolatry.
46:01: And it's not hard and it's not hard to do.
46:04: I mean, I've fallen into the, like your Andy said, you got too close to one ditch.
46:09: I've fallen in a ditch over before because you see the stuff going around and it just makes you mad and you find yourself.
46:16: That's all you're talking about.
46:17: That's all you're posting about on your Facebook and social media.
46:20: And it becomes your central focus because you know what's wrong.
46:25: Yeah.
46:26: But then you have to pull yourself back.
46:28: And that's one of the reasons we're supposed to gather for worship together with other saints because people can pull you back.
46:34: You know, that's, that's what the church is about.
46:37: Hold each other accountable.
46:38: You got to get pulled back and put your focus back where it's supposed to be.
46:42: Yes.
46:43: I can love my country and want to want to see her turn and go in the right direction, but ultimately it ain't about that.
46:50: It's about Christ, his kingdom.
46:52: And I need to remember who I belong to.
46:54: So it's not, it's not America first, it's Christ first.
47:00: So, um, yeah, it's, it's finding that line and being able to recognize that and, and not cross it.
47:08: And what that requires of the Christian to do.
47:11: And as the quote, the late great R.C.
47:14: Sproul, you had to be a student of scripture, which requires work.
47:18: He always used to say it's work.
47:19: It's not easy.
47:20: It's work.
47:21: But if you want to filter life through the lens of scripture, you've actually got to read and study the thing and understand it in its context.
47:32: So then you can make the right application and know where to draw lines and know where you don't have to draw lines and so forth and so on.
47:40: That's where I think a part of the problem for the American culture day, especially the Christian is they don't know where to draw a line because they don't even know what scripture says about much less anything.
47:50: That's right.
47:52: As far as much less patriotism, there's a, there's a meme meme going around right now.
47:57: It's got Joe Biden and his wife and they're sitting on a couch and she's, she's, she's kind of got her hands like this and doing like this and he's, he's just sitting there and the meme says they look like televangelists who've never, who've never cracked the Bible a day in their life.
48:15: And, and that's the, the sad part is it's not just the televangelists who aren't cracking Bibles.
48:21: It's many people who call themselves Christians who aren't, aren't cracking their Bibles.
48:27: Well, I think we, uh, I lost you there for a second.
48:30: You back.
48:31: Yeah.
48:32: I'm down to 20% power on my, on my phone.
48:34: So we, we burned about half a battery.
48:37: I have left where we started.
48:40: Well, I've got something written out here and I'm going to draw us to close with this, uh, with this written word, but before I read it, I want to say Richard, thank you again.
48:49: Uh, I enjoy our, uh, our banter.
48:52: I enjoy our friendship and I think the listeners enjoy hearing what we have to say on these subjects and want to thank you for being with us today.
49:00: You're welcome brother.
49:01: Anytime you want to do it.
49:03: All right.
49:04: So let me finish with what I wrote here.
49:05: I said, this is some thoughts I had before the program.
49:09: We can and should be thankful that we live in America.
49:15: Many of the ideas upon which we were founded were godly ideas and they deserve to be perpetuated.
49:22: People are still seeking to come here.
49:26: Many people are still seeking to come here from other lands and they do so because of our freedoms and our opportunities.
49:34: We should pray for our land.
49:36: We should pray against the great sins, which plague us.
49:39: We should pray for those who lead us.
49:42: We should pray that God would grant the blessing of repentance to our leaders and the blessing of the gospel to be preached in our pulpits.
49:52: We should remember as Richard said, so a few times on today's program that we are ultimately citizens of God's kingdom.
49:59: And we should always have far more allegiance to believers in Christ than we do even to our fellow Americans, because ultimately if we're ever forced to choose, we have to choose Christ.
50:16: If we are ever forced to choose, we have to choose his church.
50:20: And if we're ever forced to choose, we have to choose what's right over what may be American.
50:26: Ultimately our patriotism can only go so far.
50:31: We can be thankful and feel blessed to be in a land with opportunity and blessings and freedoms.
50:39: But ultimately we must be more thankful and more, uh, feel more blessed that we're part of a kingdom that will never end.
50:52: Patriotism sometimes will also include the rebuking of our nation.
50:58: And a true patriot will at times have to stand up against his nation when his nation is in the wrong.
51:06: So I'll end with a quote from GK Chesterton.
51:10: This is in a writing called the defendant.
51:13: And this is what he says in regard to the subject of patriotism.
51:16: He says, quote, my country right or wrong is a thing that no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case, it is like saying my mother drunk or sober.
51:29: No doubt.
51:30: If a decent man's mother took to drink, he would share her troubles to the last, but to talk as if he would be in a state of gay indifference as to whether his mother took to drink or not is certainly not the language of men who know the great mystery.
51:47: What's he saying there? Well, he's saying, as I said, as patriots, if we are true patriots, then we can exalt the goodness of our nation, but we also call our nation to repentance when it is in sin and when it has fallen into evil.
52:03: We don't look at any more than we would look at our mother who's fallen into drunkenness and say, she's absolutely fine the way she is.
52:09: We don't look at our nation.
52:10: That's fallen into sin and say, it's absolutely fine the way it is.
52:13: No, we call our nation to repentance and always remember it's not America above all, it is Christ above all.
52:21: Thank you for listening today to Conversations with a Calvinist.
52:25: I appreciate you listening in with us.
52:28: And if you have a question or a topic that you'd like us to address in the future, please send it to Calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.
52:37: Thank you again, and may God bless you.
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52:56: As you go about your day, remember this, Jesus Christ came to save sinners.
53:02: All who come to him in repentance and faith will find him to be a perfect savior.
53:07: He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him.
53:14: May God be with you.