Matt Slick Bible Study - 11/15/17 - Open Theism

Open Theism as a Heresy and a Man-Centered Theology

We're on we're on now. Okay November 15th 19 no November 15th 2017 do the cut edit that out. And next week we're not gonna have study because it's Thanksgiving Eve and there you go for that. And then what we're gonna do.

We're talking about moving this to another night because people are requesting and move to their night maybe Friday again and we'll see what happens. So there's that and I'm gonna pray open and then I'm gonna teach them about open theism and I'm hoping that we'll get some interesting stuff and I'll tell you why we'll do.

No do the open theism. All right. Lord Jesus we ask that you be with us tonight and bless us. And as we seek to learn to be exposed to things Lord that you and your great grace would manifest yourself to us.

That you don't put up the hearts of the minds of the people who need to hear what needs to be said and that you would cause them to hear your truth in your word. Lord just ask that you'd bless when I teach.

And Lord we just give this time and ask that you would bind the evil one and any demonic anything that might hinder the teaching and the time we ask this Jesus your precious name. All right. So in November 30th I'm flying out to Denver and I'll be out there for a couple of days.

I'm flying out Thursday back Saturday night and I'm gonna be in two debates. One is on open theism. Does open theism I forget the exact title is open theism the proper representation of God or something like that.

And then the second one does on the second night does Calvinism represent God is loving. And so I'm like yes let's do it and open theism. So I'll talk about what it is a little bit and my opponent sought me out and he has a website on open theism and has been difficult to find information of what he's actually taught.

And I went through and read some of his material interesting comments of the coming out of that during our debate. And also his pastor apparently I was I was reading through his material today his opening statement man talk about bad logic bad thinking.

Seriously it's in fact it's bad enough that I've decided I'm gonna write a rebuttal to his opening statement by just just commenting in through various areas of what he said it is demonstrating some very bad thinking but and I'm serious bad thinking and so I thought what we talked about I'll do you know talk about open theism.

What is open theism. Open theism is a teaching that the future is open that God does not know everything in the future exhaustively. And because he does not know everything in the future exhaustively therefore he doesn't know what's really going to happen in a lot of areas.

So that's called open theism now basically what it is what it is in my opinion. And I'm just going to be talking generically and I've got reasons I'm gonna be generic I'm not gonna give too many specifics.

I want to show my hand for the debate. But open theism. Open theism is a heresy and it's a man-centered theology that reduces God and elevates man. Now it reduces God because what it essentially is doing is stating that God is limited to time has certain aspects and attributes that must work in concert with time.

And also that was called liberty. Generally speaking they hold to libertarian free will. Open theists do what's libertarianism. Libertarianism is the teaching that human there's kind of two ways to talk about it.

There's libertarianism and compatibilism. Libertarianism says that man's free will is well they've do this way. Compatibilism says that God's election and predestination is compatible. The doctrine of God's predestination election is compatible with human free will.

Libertarianism would say that's not the case that God's foreknowledge and God's infinite knowledge of things is not compatible with with human free will. The reason they'll say that is because a person when he decides to wear a shirt like I decided to wear the shirt tonight and I thought about actually I had to try another shirt on that had Japanese symbol for grace but I decided to wear this one instead.

And so when I decided to wear the shirt tonight was I free to make a different decision. Well yes in one sense I was free. In other sense no but but the open theist would say if God knew that you're gonna choose this so when it came time to you to choose to wear it you weren't free to choose anything else.

It's horrible logic. It's bad thinking. But this is one of the arguments that they use because they want human freedom human ability human centeredness man centeredness humanism. The idea that man's freedom is the in a sense the end all that's not what open theist would say.

They say the greatest attribute of God is his love and his desire to to love people freely. And what's called libertarian free will. And though not all open theists hold purely to libertarianism their variations and things like this.

But I'm not going to speak in and in the basic generic terms and so sit in order for men to be free God can't exhaustively perfectly know every choice we're going to make otherwise we're not free to make a choice contrary to that one make a choice now there's some logical problems with that.

And there's there's some problems. But so in libertarianism man is not restricted by his sinful nature. So in the Bible the Bible says that the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Further foolishness to him.

1st Corinthians 2 14 the slave of sin a hater of God. Romans 14 6 through 20. Or for Romans 6 14 through 20. Actually in Romans 3 10 11 and 12 talks about they don't seek for God can do no good. So even though the Bible tells us that the humans is enslaved to sin what they will say is that he's not enslaved to sin such that he cannot have his own free will make a choice to believe in God.

And this is basically an Arminian position Wesleyan kind of Arminianism and unbiblical and so nevertheless so there's different reasons that the the open theist will say God doesn't know the future. One of the reasons is the future doesn't exist.

So God can't know the future if it doesn't exist now that's philosophically difficult to justify because an open theist at this point is now venturing into the nature of time and what is time. You define your terms what is time as it relates to the future the past the present things like that.

And I've noticed it in the literature by open theists they beg the question a great deal. They assume certain things without defining their terms and they can't justify their positions. Here's another one that they will say God chooses not to know the future even though it can be known.

This is another view. So God chooses what asked what areas of the future not to know. I find that problematic because how does he know what part not to know. You know. But they will have their responses.

They're not dumb. Okay. There's some intelligent people who hold of this and they hold it for. So what they see in Scripture as well in open theism. Because now check this out. Because God does not know exhaustively the future then it's possible for God to make mistakes.

Because if he doesn't know what's going to happen he might expect something and be surprised by it. So God can make mistakes and he takes risks. He takes risks with people's people's future freewill choices.

Now I found a very rare document archaeologically I had to spend a lot of money and go over the Middle East and just dig it on my own. And I found this rare document from the open theist perspective of things that God himself actually says from the open theist perspective when things don't go right they're written down and I just kind of transcribed it here and so I did some translation from the original balarney yiddish language.

And so some of the things that God would say in the open theist perspective is things like this. Oops. So because you know God takes risks and God could also say and oh and oh no. And dang it. And shucks.

Let me get back to you on that. Wow. That was a surprise. I hope it works out. Oh no. Now what's he gonna do this time. No I haven't heard a joke about the open theist. Let's see. Please oh please please please believe in me.

I'll not do that again. I didn't turn out so. Well did it. I'll try and get it right next time. I'd answer your prayer. But I don't know what's gonna happen. Hey I just learned something. Well I can always go to plan B.

Well I can always go to plan D. So these are some of the things that you know in a facetious manner this issue of God taking risks and making mistakes. How could you trust the God of open theism. How could you seriously trust the God of open theism if he doesn't know the future exhaustively.

Because does that mean that you might not really be saved. Or he might goof or he might sin now. Yeah there's there's more. So at any rate it could it be possible for him to sin. Could be possible. He doesn't know.

He could violate his own nature. Don't know. It gets some odd stuff in here. So God learns in open theism he learns what actual actually happens. So he doesn't know what's actually gonna happen. So one of the places I'll go to was Genesis 22.

And you know. And Abraham's raising the knife over at Isaac. And God says now I stop don't do that. Now I know that you're really gonna do this right. Well the Bible says he knows all things. Right. First John 3 20.

Well you see when you're in the open theist realm what that really means is he all he knows all things that are knowable but doesn't say that. It just says he knows all things. But what they'll do is they'll add those.

Well it means you know it just means you know. But with noble he doesn't know that stuff. We know that from other places. And they'll go to other places in the scripture I'll talk about some things. We're pretty kind of tough.

I can see why the open theist would say some of the things that they do. But what was I saying. Oh yeah. So Genesis 22. So now I know. Well there's a thing we we know called anthropomorphism. Anthropos morphe Greek anthropos and morphe man form.

So when for example Adam and Eve were in the garden the pre-incarnate Christ came walking with them. And this is an anthropomorphism of a human manifestation of of the divine Christ Jesus is an anthropomorphism.

It's a human manifestation of the divine. And so we would have these occurrences in the Old Testament as well where God is seen in various places etc. And of course never the father. Another topic. And so doesn't God know what's in the heart of people.

Well some open theists have to say that he doesn't even know that doesn't know God's got a hope things work out. And there's some open theists that will say yes God knows the present exhaustively. Well if he knows the present exhaustively then doesn't he know what's gonna happen.

When when Abraham raises the knife he says don't do it. How does he know he's really gonna do it. How do you know the last second halfway down. He wasn't gonna do it. How does he know he'll put this. He doesn't know you know it could be the last split second.

He might just go. I can't quite do it right. But God when you raise it up Oh God said now I know wait a minute he's got a couple of seconds over here Abraham could it change his mind. So if first God to do this at this point God's got to know right you got to learn right.

It doesn't make any sense. Now some open theists will say that God doesn't even know that he doesn't know the present exhaustively. God's in there going like this. What's he gonna do. I hope it works out now.

That's the case. How is God gonna prophesy. How's he gonna prophesy and bring things about exactly that what he wants. You know there's a prophecy and I could maybe get the notes and some stuff. But there's a prophecy out there on the web they go through different websites do it where the the very number of days that Jesus is prophesied to walk in to or ride into Jerusalem when he rode in on the on the donkey.

And the prophecy from I think it's Daniel is when you look at it's a hundred seventy three thousand three hundred eighty five days or some ridiculous number two hundred and seventy something thousand days.

And this prophesied and he says for the time of time from this mark from that this many times it goes through and you add it up. Bang. Well and the God of open theism I could just see God going. Okay let's hope this works come on.

And he's hoping that eternity turns out or that things turn out right. Because he doesn't know how things are gonna work out. He doesn't know if people are gonna choose the right things how can he ordain these things and force these things and make them happen unless he manipulates eternity.

I'm just gonna be manipulates the present constantly as he's directing people. Well this I think is a real intellectual problem for the open theist position. I'm sure that they could have some some answers to that.

But what I've been doing the past two a couple three days now is going through the arguments from this open theist. I'm gonna be debating and his pastor who's an open theist. And logical fallacies. Man come on you know and this is what happens when you don't submit to the Word of God.

You get logical fallacies. So anyway God can make mistakes in open theism. God learns he takes risks does not know the future. Man's free will is basically paramount. And the greatest attribute of God is love.

Now get to one more point here a little bit. But they elevate God's love above basically everything else. It's greatest attribute of love. Now let me ask you guys a question. Is that true is the greatest attribute of God is God love.

Well you know what. Let's just say yeah. Because that means he's gonna love me. If he loves me the all-powerful king of the universe is gonna want to make me a little bit more comfortable. So that's his greatest attribute.

In other words I'm gonna find something that gives me what I need out of God. Now people can say that. Well good. No God's the love the world. Yeah. But he also says in Isaiah 43 7 the reason he created us was for his glory.

So we could say that the reason he created us is for his glory. Not to love us. Did he specifically says so he does not say in the Bible that the reason he created us was to love us but it's for his glory.

So I could say well the greatest attribute of God is his self-glory his glorification of himself. If there's nothing greater in the universe exists. And he's worthy of honor and glory. You say that. And I got a verse that says that's why he made us.

It wasn't so he could love us. So I could make the case. So what. The problem here is that this attribute of love is is elevated above others. And it has a psychological and emotional advantage to do that does.

Don't you want God to be loving and kind and and the best for you. Oh yeah. That's how we want God. Of course it's how we want it. Well good. Don't you want him also to like and to be loving. Yes that's what I want.

And I like how you say that. Don't you want. Don't you want. Don't we want. Don't we want. It's about what we want. And that's exactly what happens in open theism. They elevate the attribute of God's love above other things.

So his sovereignty his omniscience omnipotence which they deny his omniscience omnipotence. They deny these things. And yes good not to say too many things. I'm gonna give too much away. Get back. All right.

So so one of the things they say in open theism one of the basic tenets is that God can change his mind. Now God can change his mind. So let's a little have a little fun here. All right. I'm gonna do big big letters and stuff.

It looks good. It looks good. You read that. Okay. So here's this is infinity past. That's a symbol for infinity. Is that too big or too small. I mean too small. A little bigger. Yeah. Yeah. I'm making it bigger.

Than I immediately mess up. Okay. That's a symbol for for infinity. All right. So we have we have time. Okay. All right. And so we have these verses where God changes his mind. For example Exodus 32 14.

Let me go to. Right there. I'm gonna read something to you. I'm gonna show you something. A lot of Christians aren't aware of these verses. Exodus 32 14 last one. There's an open theist. All right. Oh I may be an open theist here.

That's right. Hey what's going on here. How come I won't work. That's weird. Okay. All right. So the Lord changed his mind about the harm which he had said he would do to his people. This says right there the Lord changed his mind.

There's other verses to talk about this. Numbers 1411. All right. Numbers 1411 says the Lord said to Moses how long will this people spurn me. And how long will they not believe in me. Despite all the signs which I performed in their midst.

He doesn't even know how long they gonna do this. It doesn't mean that he isn't. No you know how long are you gonna be put you know how long you know. Just stop talking. So God changes his mind. Right.

And there's a bunch of verses like this. God has regrets. God seems to be surprised. God didn't know what people would do. God tests people to learn what they will do. God shows uncertainty about the future.

These are some of the things that they claim. Now God changes his mind. Let's just work with this. All right. So this is time. All right. So let's we have here is eternal decrees. In other words this is what God says will happen.

It's gonna happen. Eternal decrees. Certain things he has decreed for the foundation of the world. For example the crucifixion of Christ. All right. You go to Acts 4 27 28. Now okay you still see me on the thing.

So here we have people all right and they're milling around. These people are good people bad people. And some things happen now God wants this event to happen here he wants event a to happen. And what he does is he speaks and he prophesies.

Well he can do that. I'll just do it this way. So he says here he speaks. Okay he speaks and he says something. And then here people react to what he says. And then they do something. So they do something and God will say hey I didn't know that was going to happen right.

Now eternal decrees which we know exist because the Bible tells us that he works all things after the Council of as well he's agreed in various things to get into that he speaks and the people do things.

And then in the open theist perspective God didn't know this. So now there's a new God's knowledge goes on. Okay so God has this now he has knowledge where before he didn't. So he spoke. God learned because he was surprised by something he had to change his mind about something.

Now here's the thing people time we know first John 3 20 God knows all things. He doesn't learn. Open theist will say he learns. So and open theism God learns. But we know biblically speaking he does not learn.

So why would God be surprised or change his mind. If he knows all of this. Why would he say he's surprised. Why would he do that. Well the open theist would say well the plain reading of Scripture requires that we understand that what God is doing is actually telling us that he's surprised.

He really is surprised. We don't believe in that man. I'll say well there are verses. I don't have to memorize where God decrees every event whatever he desires will come to pass. How could he be surprised if he decrees everything.

If certain things are to occur. It wouldn't make sense. Now when Adam and Eve were in the garden and they sinned and they're hiding themselves. The pre-incarnate Jesus came up and he said to the man where are you now.

Do you think that the pre-incarnate Christ is in the garden like this. No. Where'd you go. Where are you. Oh you're out there anywhere you think that's what was happening. Are you thinking he knew exactly where he was.

He knew where he was. Okay. In the open theist perspective the plain reading of Scripture would mean God doesn't know where Adam was behind a bush. You know it doesn't make any sense. Why would God speak like that.

Because we call it an anthro. It's a big word. My arms getting tired. This is so difficult. Anthropomorphism. Okay it's I'm sesquipedalian. I mean I like big words. So an anthropomorphism is where God relates to us in a level and in a means that we understand.

So he does that we understand. Now what color is divinity. How much does divinity weight. So we don't know what divinity looks like. Do we how about this. What is humanity. The human essence. Was it look like how much is the human essence way.

These are non sequiturs. We it's like saying blue sleeps faster than Wednesday doesn't make any sense. But in the human perspective we can recognize life and personhood. And the humanity in the essence of a person by the attributes that are displayed by a person.

So I recognize personhood. When I I talk to someone I say you are a jerk. Okay. And recognizing them. I'm saying you. And I say oh yeah you're a bigger jerk than me. So they're recognizing me. They have the idea of recognition understanding.

And we can say I forget it's like a cup of coffee. Okay great. So make a deal. We go get a cup of coffee together. So now we're doing something together. We have relationship. I'm experiencing as that other person is experiencing personhood.

I don't see personhood. I see the manifestation of personhood. You get my saying here. So we have something. I'm gonna erase their stuff. You have something. You have the nature of something. And then you have the attributes.

Okay. So this is the essence. And with something exists as an essence has attributes. So this eraser exists. And it has attributes. It's this long it's this weighs this much. You know doesn't taste good things like that.

But the attributes emanate out of the essence they reflect the essence. So if you have personhood I will be able to detect personhood by the attributes. The same with God his existence means he has attributes.

The problem with God is in us in this relationship of discovering him is if he were to show his blue or business of undulating fifth-dimensional tesseract stuff we wouldn't know. That was God. We just go running.

So what God has to do in order to communicate to us so that we understand him is he has to anthropomorphize. He has to become one of us in our level communicate on a way we can understand. This is the basics called the incarnation.

Well in this we know that God for all eternity is going to relate to us in a way that we're going to understand now. I didn't know. You're gonna do that. That's right. On a human level. This is what's going on.

Hey Adam where are you. Of course he knew where he was. We see this first example of the human the condescension of God in the garden when he came down and he was right there in the garden with Adam he knew where he was because you keep it.

They heard the sound of the Lord walking and they hid themselves. Which means it's getting close. The sound getting close they heard and they hid. Where are you Adam. Where are you. There's a lot of that theological question.

Where are you spiritually. Where are you physically. You know. But we see the initial pattern now this idea is called that the law first mentioned now in James to me in Genesis 2 17 he says to Adam God says Adam is the first mention of the word death or die.

The when you eat of the fruit you will die. That's the first mention of it. So what does God mean by it. The day that you eat of the fruit you will die. They ate of the fruit that day. Did they die. Yes.

Of course they died because God said so what's with you guys. Oh I just you know. Take take your hand and put it on your face look to your left and slap yourself upside the head because the answer is yeah they died.

Why. Because God said so don't think in the term that you think died means what does God mean by now. The physical manifestation of that spiritual death occurred hundreds of years later for them they physically died.

But they died because they were separated from God. Your sins have caused a separation between you and your God as if it in 9 verse 2. So when sin occurs there's a separation. So we know that the death that God is speaking of initially a separation from him with a biological manifestation.

That's the death that God is speaking about. And we know the ways of sin is death Roman 623. The soul that sins will die Ezekiel 18. For there's various things like this. So we can see that the way God uses the word death is different than how we do a lot of time.

What does he mean. The first mention for the first occurrence of God in the Bible in a condescending manner is when he had said Adam where are you. But also actually the first one is speaking down. You know you can name the animals kind of a thing.

Okay it's all an anthropomorphism. But we have this issue of God's knowledge in question here God knew but he asked asked a question even though he already knew this kind of thing is how we can look at this and everything like this God changes his mind.

He has regrets. Surprised because on the human level this is exactly what's going on now. Think about it. God has regrets. Well okay he has regrets. In what sense does he have regrets. The sense of he knows that people are gonna rebel against him.

Now people might say well if you know what's gonna happen why would you feel that emotional pain about it when it occurs. If you know are you serious. It's not a good question if they'll say look if God knows from eternity in his eternal decrease that so-and-so is gonna do something here and he feels pain or sorrows or you know emotional regret or whatever it is.

Because they'll often say that let's say how then how then is that possible. Oh let me ask any mom and dad in here when you do you know that your child's gonna mess up. Yes does your knowing it mean. You don't feel remorse about something or upsetness about them or anger or whatever it is when it really happens even though you knew it's gonna happen ahead of time.

What God suddenly his his omniscience means that he can't know all things. And when sin really occurs he's not bothered by it. Of course. Why not or made his image Genesis 126 or 28. So you know there's ways of answering this and the basically the generic answer is God in anthropomorphically works with us and so we would see him as he communicates changing his mind regrets surprise and some other things.

Now I can go into stuff I haven't. I purposely have not got into prepping this for tonight. I just looked up some notes and here we are. But there are places where when you say God was surprised where there's other scriptures that didn't like no you know he knew exactly what's gonna happen and where he had a different plan it was already worked out ahead of time.

I don't have those memorized because I just don't talk about open theism very well. But those are there. And well I'll probably some other time maybe we can do a follow-up and I can do some stuff like that explain some things all right.

So let's see. I get a lot of notes here. So got anthropomorphic expression. God expresses such things as anger regret sorrow and pity. God displays proper emotions at the proper time. Even though he knew from eternity what people would do.

God relents or repents from doing something he said he would do based on the actions or inactions of people. Sometimes God listens to the intercessory prayers of someone and then relents from bringing judgment.

Other times due to their unfaithfulness God brings judgment. But this does not mean that God acts on whims. He is acting appropriately in relationship to our time frame. If he acted according to the final outcome the steps needed to get to that outcome God's judgment for example would be avoided and the outcome wouldn't occur.

Or what if God said I'm going to judge you if you do such and such. And then they do such and such and he judges them. That's because he's saying certain things are gonna happen. What about Jonah. For example he says Jonah go into Nineveh.

I'm gonna destroy him in 40 days. Do you think God knew that when Jonah went and spoke to the Ninevites that they're gonna repent. I believe he did. And Jonah didn't want them to repent. He didn't want to save him.

He went the other direction didn't like him. God does deals with him gets him back now in Genesis in Jeremiah 18 8 God says that the nation that repents he will then relent of his calamity which he said he's gonna do to them.

That's exactly what we would say I'm gonna do this to you. And then they repent. Then he doesn't do it. Oh wait a minute he's gonna do it. Yeah. And by saying it it brings him to the place of repentance which is exactly what God decreed.

This is how it works. It's how we have answers for stuff like this. Not a big deal. All right. Interrogative expressions. Interrogative is a question. God says where Adam where are you. Things like that.

Um so let's see I'm gonna go to my notes here. I haven't read this in a long time. If God chooses to not know the future freewill choices of human creatures then this means that the future is knowable.

If the future is knowable then all the future is knowable. If for example tomorrow at noon Bob was going to choose to wear either a blue or red shirt and the choice that Bob will make tomorrow is knowable by God today this means that God would not know.

Just like 15 steps long I won't go to all kill you guys with logic. Other people like when I say I'm gonna kill him with logic so that not I said to my wife don't ever say it to your wife I'm gonna kill you with logic.

And then you know you end up going. I'm sorry just makes a bad sandwich or something puts too much spice on it you know. So we have God relating to us in human terms human actions. He changes his mind relented remembered rusted human emotions sorrow jealousy pity regret.

Human physique his hands face mouth eyes arm. And I think about that too. If they're gonna take it literally that God doesn't know something big it says you know I'm surprised by this or that. Well then we take it literally also that he has hands face mouth eyes arms things like that which the Bible clearly says it's another form of anamorphism.

We take the whole of what's going on. The Bible says he has wings and saw 57 and one taking it literally. Obviously not. That's future. I mean that's a figurative all right now. So let's talk about this.

If God knows our future free will choices are we still free. This is one of the main arguments that they use. And there's a sense of freedom. There's different senses of freedom. And let's see. So am I.

Am I free to lie. Yeah I am. Am I going to. No. Why. Because I believe lines of sin. So because I believe lines of sin I'm not going to lie. So my free to lie in that sense. No because I'm not gonna lie.

But I'm free as its capability. I'm capable of it but I don't want to. So I'm not going to. So am I really free to do it. Well no not the best illustration. But you get the point we have certain attributes and certain abilities that freedom has to do with different senses.

And one of the things I've noticed in open theism is a mangling of the senses in the sense that that freedom exists. But nevertheless God knowing what we're going to do does not mean that we can't do something else.

It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. So who's the one restricting our freedom. Would we make a choice. We are. I'm the one who chose to wear this shirt not a different shirt.

Tonight I had two shirts I was gonna wear not at the same time that had these options. And so I chose to do this. I'm the one who restricted my choice. Did God know that I was gonna be the one to restrict my choice.

Yes. So how's God restricting my choice. By knowing what I chose to restrict it to doesn't make any sense for them to complain. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge. Our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God.

Now I can get in more complicated theology of ordination and causation. But it won't. And this our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed any more than my choice of what to write inside the parentheses on this paper here.

Hello was removed by God when I knew I would put the word hello in the parentheses before the universe was made. Before typing the word hello I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing.

And the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom. When choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do no matter what choice we freely make I can be. It can be known by God and his knowing doesn't mean we're not making free choices.

So what they'll do is they say if God knows what you're gonna choose ahead of time you're not free to make a different choice at the time. But that's the wrong question. Because to say if God knows it then you're not free.

As in he's restricting you. But he's not restricting you. That's it. That's the problem. That's the weakness in their position. I have not in all seriousness I have not seen very critical. I mean there's some level of critical thinking.