An All Roman Catholic Dividing Line (100 Minutes)

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and greetings welcome to the dividing line it is a Thursday I'm pretty certain but it is all

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Rome dividing line we did let's see 120 140 minutes on the last program and still didn't have enough time to get to the stuff that I queued up and lo and behold come today what happens but we find the

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Pope in a war with Donald Trump the Pope versus the

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Donald they both have definite articles before their first name I mean that's pretty cool the Pope the

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Donald there you are and sadly I have encountered followers of both that really thought along the same lines it's just sad very very sad very strange anyways yes

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Donald Trump said that not now look

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I know what the all the memes are saying and the stuff flying around social media thankfully

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I happen to catch video of the actual statement and it was an offhand remark wasn't written down being translated and if we've learned anything so far you got to be a little slow on jumping on translated stuff because of the fact that it's a translation and my gut feeling is is that what the

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Pope was saying given that this guy this is the same guy who in talking about a homosexual says who am

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I to judge what he was probably saying was anyone building walls and not fences that that is not

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Christian not that that person's not a Christian because this this Pope would loathe to have that level of standard but but I think we can learn what is most important to the

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Pope this guy is a liberation theologian which is nothing more than saying a communist he is a religious communist and the idea that that he would have problems with a border folks if you don't have borders you don't have nations if you have nations you don't have laws you have anarchy you can't render in the

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Caesar the things that are Caesar's if no one knows where Caesar rules I mean it really is an open invitation to to a form of utter anarchy to grouse about borders but isn't it interesting he can grouse about physical borders but he doesn't seem to have any problem what but he seems to have a major problem with understanding theological borders in regards to all the issues that define the gospel and things like that this

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Pope is just we're gonna be talking about a lot of Roman Catholic teaching including the papacy itself but to to anybody who understands historical

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Roman Catholic theology this Pope is not just an enigma he's a contradiction it is painfully obviously painfully obvious absolutely painfully obvious that this man does not believe what was believed by Popes for centuries and so no matter what else you do you if you want to look at the papacy and go oh hey you know we we have this established

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Church and it's the Church of 2 ,000 years of course there wasn't any papacy in those early years but you know you had the

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Rome and and his power grew slowly over time but but when you look at what became

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Roman Catholicism and compared Roman Catholicism only 150 years ago with today massive massive change massive change and it's got to be tough for the

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Roman Catholic apologists who you know wants you to believe that you know you have all this confusion and we have the

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Pope you mean you don't have confusion you mean every day people aren't trying to figure out what the

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Pope meant by that last statement yeah you do you do now of course

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Trump's response was for a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful maybe he's only read that two

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Corinthians but no if he had read that he would have run across religious leaders questioning other person's faiths like in Galatians or Jesus and Matthew 23 or John and first John and second

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John and Luke and yeah yeah we get the idea the Donald knows that much about the

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Bible but pretends you know it's it's it's all pretense I think he pretends to be a lot of things like pro -life and everything else but anyway for religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful well you know the proper response would have of course been to look for the context of what the

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Pope was saying recognize it was a translation may put a nice spin on it you know but that's that's not the

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Donald's way and but it does give us some insights into the

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Pope's priorities as well as the fact and this is what we want to get to Vatican City this is from February 11th dubbed super confessors for one year only they can absolve sins usually only pardoned by the

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Pope himself on Wednesday over 1 ,000 these missionaries of mercy handpicked by Pope Francis were sent forth to win back the hearts of those who have left the

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Catholic Church and open the door to repentance centers across the world there are certain evils Vatican ranks above other sins from attempting to assassinate the

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Pope to defiling the Eucharist the right of consuming consecrated bread and wine in the church by spitting it out or using it in a satanic ritual since the 12th century these guilt those guilty of these so -called reserved sins had their cases evaluated by a secret tribunal in the tiny

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Vatican City State before they were sent before the Pope who would determine an appropriate penance now 1 ,142 priests and monks from around the world have been given the power for the

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Vatican's Jubilee Year to forgive sins in their flocks and possibly fellow priests as one of the special sins is breaking the seal of confession so now we have over 1 ,100 super confessors with superpowers during the year of Jubilee where if you walk through certain doors and there there does seem to be a because this is so obviously medieval it is so obviously unbiblical

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I mean no one is going to honestly look at the New Testament and go yeah yeah that's what the

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Apostles were doing the Apostles were you know opening doors and saying if you walk through this door you'll you'll get forgiveness of sins and yeah yeah that's sacramental stuff it developed over time but you know it's as Cardinal Newman said you know it's like the acorn to the tree and and this is why

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Rome has to deny sola scriptura of course because if you actually limit yourself to what's actually

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Theano Staus what's God breathed you're never gonna come up with this silly stuff you're not gonna have super confessors well first of all you don't have priests to begin with you have one high priest

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Jesus everybody in the body of Christ is a priest in one sense but it's no such thing as a sacrament sacramental priesthood in Roman Catholicism I've really you know what we you know what

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I need to do rich I realize something I need to change where I put stuff on my screen and need to start putting some of this stuff over here and put

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Twitter over there so I don't see Twitter as often because Travis Barry just posted a picture of the

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Pope with a real mean look on his face looking at the camera and it says I'm watching you

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James so here I am trying I'm trying to concentrate and I'm being distracted by my strange stuff on Twitter thank you very much you know the

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Pope normally looks happier than that he didn't look happy yesterday just see that one clip where that that guy was pulling him over on top of this kid

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I mean hey I'm I'm with the Pope on that one that'll turn into a meme some place don't pull me over on top of children you know that I mean that's just common sense but he he lost it there anyway thanks a lot

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Travis I appreciate the the distraction at that point anyhow what were we saying oh yes there there were no sacramental priests in the

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New Testament listen to the debate between myself and Mitchell Pack well I think it was pretty straightforward so you didn't have confessors you didn't have you know venial and mortal sins and all the rest of stuff that again develops over time it is it is not a part of New Testament Revelation is not it's not a part of what the

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Apostles taught and so this idea that you can now have these super confessors who are given this super power but only for a certain period of time to forgive certain sins like blaspheming the

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Eucharist what does this have to with Christianity absolutely positively nothing at all it's it's as far removed from the

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Christian faith as can be but see once you abandon the standard that Jesus gave us where you test human traditions by what is written in Scripture once you're convinced that well that doesn't work and so I need something other than Scripture I need a an infallible source of authority and so I'm going to grab hold of the

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Pope now you're stuck you you have no way of holding the papacy sole

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Ecclesia it's all over the place you have no way of holding the papacy to any kind of standard and so get way down the road and you get this

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Pope and he can just send out super confessors who have super powers of forgiveness and nobody in the days the

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Apostles or of the early church would have had any clue what in the world you were talking about but we're all told it's the one true apostolic church just that apostolic part you have to redefine not what the

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Apostles actually taught but we can allegedly trace ourselves through this convoluted you know line you know jumping over the

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Babylonian captivity the church and well you know which Pope was the right Pope when the papacy was in Avignon and there was the papacy in Rome and then they have one in Rome and Avignon and they're they're fighting with each other and you know all the rest of stuff and then you know sort of skip over the pornography and then you get back into where all the emperors were assigning you know who the

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Bishop of Rome was but somehow through all of that we have apostolic succession right right and that means that we can get to teach what the

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Apostles are doing there's Rome for you there's Rome for you so the

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Pope sends out the these super confessors now I wanted to thank

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I want to thank a Roman Catholic apologist yes yes want to thank a

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Roman Catholic apologist Scott Eric Alt and and we've brandished our swords at one another a few times but I appreciated an article from February 12 saying we need to stop saying that there are 33 ,000

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Protestant denominations he says recently because readers can't seem to stop telling me what to write about one sent me a link with a note here's something for you to refute somehow along the way

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I become mr. refutation I can't say how that happened well it happens to me a lot too anyway the link was to an article written all the way back in 2007 by someone named dr.

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Glenn Andrew peoples whom I had never heard of dr. peoples disputes the common myth for a myth it is that there are 33 ,000

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Protestant domination so apparently this particular reader thinks dr. peoples needs to be taken to school and I am just one to do that and shown that there really are 33 ,000 dominations or whatever the number has escalated a possibly fifty one thousand three hundred fourteen as of this writing for there is a formula to calculate these things

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I regret to say that is not going to happen here there are not repeat with me there are not 33 ,000

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Protestant denominations they're not anywhere close to it it is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition and it gets cited and recited by reflex and is based on a source that even

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Catholics will have to concede relies on too lucid definition of the word denomination how far back do we have to go to find our documentation of this reality on our website

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I don't remember what the year was but it's been a long time probably about a decade now and we've had

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Roman Catholic apologists fight and growl some scream it's so nice to run into someone who goes um come on guys we need to this is this is pretty silly because when you actually look at the numbers you know they're including all sorts of stuff that cannot in any meaningful fashion be attributed to any meaningful definition of the term

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Protestant I mean you know Gnostic groups and all sorts of wild crazy cults and everything else and and there's just so much massive expansion of the numbers that it's utterly meaningless it's utterly meaningless but this utterly meaningless number has been repeated over and over again ad nauseum on the coming home network on EWTN by Tim Staples and the guy with the funny hat who goes on tours over to Israel and you know all sorts of folks like that they just repeat it ad nauseam and I can guarantee you

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Scott Eric Ault will hear them repeating it over and over again in the future too it's like reflex they can't stop they it's just it's so much a part of their

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DNA that I just don't think they can stop I just don't think so so that they will keep repeating they really will they really will and of course he does thankfully mention that he gives some of the numbers which include 242 denominations for Catholics which

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I'm really not sure that most of the Catholics will will really want to go there but you know he does mention some of the independents and marginals such as Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses Masons Christadelphians Unitarians Christian Science Theosis British Israelites prosperity gospel groups one is

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Pentecostals I love this one hidden Buddhist believers in Christ nine denominations wandering bishops 12 denominations independent

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Nestorians occultists now the funny thing is one of the reasons we respond to this over the years was the fact that the argument was made

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Sola Scriptura is the blueprint for anarchy and here's the result look at all these denominations yeah

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Sola Scriptura is is the is how you get hidden Buddhist believers in Christ and occultists and spiritists and even

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Arab radio TV network 19 denominations oh there's the gay homosexual tradition too yeah there you go and schismatic

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Catholics 435 denominations that must be due to Sola Scriptura too yeah we had pointed these things out a long time ago and didn't stop them and now a

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Roman Catholic is pointing out going guys guys come on come on let's be factual here this is this is silly well that's something new new the number will keep growing the normal number

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I've heard recently is 39 ,000 so it's just gonna keep growing and growing and growing like Pinocchio's nose no stopping it no stopping it at all now

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I had mentioned that we might have a phone call today so if if our phone caller would like to call in I'm not looking for a bunch of phone calls there is a specific phone caller who knows who he is that we'd like to talk to today regarding Roman Catholicism and while we're lining that up there was a article

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I think today it may have been today someone in channel has hidden Buddhist believers in Christ HBBC donate today

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I could put it and put a link up and donate to the hidden Buddhist believers in Christ and that'll do something and I'm the sad thing is if you probably get some donations too but I think it was

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Sam Shamoon that posted a link today on Facebook to an article about article by Waleed Shoubat and you may have noticed recently

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Michael Brown even posted a link to a an article by Theodore Shoubat the younger of the

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Shoubats wherein he said that Jesus would personally have beaten gays to death and I'm not sure that's exact terminology as I watched it but it was a it fits in with the

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Christian Crusader mentality that the Shoubats have have adopted and Waleed and Theodore it was very obvious to all of us had become

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Roman Catholics you know a couple years ago but Waleed has now openly said that he has embraced

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Roman Catholicism now you know I could get that if we're talking about the

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Roman Catholic Church of 150 years ago we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church of the papal syllabus of errors okay you know if if we're talking about that level of Roman you know 1870 papal infallibility you know strong old -time

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Roman Catholicism I get that but Pope Frankie you know the the the milk toast

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Pope the the who am I to judge Pope the Universalist at least well at least inclusivist probably

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Universalist type Pope that's constantly saying stuff that really clearly demonstrates that he's not an

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Orthodox Roman Catholic historically speaking that that guy what what would be the connect what would be the the draw now don't know but the

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Shoubats have have come out and of course I'm just like okay and who's their bishop and does he know what he's what he has on his hands because if they start you know openly representing themselves in this way

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Wow I mean look what's happened to people like Bob Syngenis when

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Syngenis has questioned some of the odd changes that have taken place in Roman Catholic theology in regards to Judaism and point out

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I gives me but didn't we once say this over here which of course you know

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I I get why Bob would do that but Bob's the one who said to me years ago when

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I sent him stuff where the Pope was contradicting previous popes who are you to judge only the only the church can do that well the shoe fits on the right foot it fits on the left foot too and that's the problem once you've abandoned solo scripture is like well as long as church says it well how do you know that the church has said it that's something else if Pope Francis says

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X Y or Z today unless he puts the exact right words we define and defend and announce and pronounce and all the rest that stuff well then that's not really the church speaking so the

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Pope really doesn't give you guidance unless he gives an official statement was the last time the

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Pope did that so so papal bulls don't really you know statements don't you know unum sanctum well you know what about those post

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Vatican to well we don't know this person interpreted that way that person interprets that way like anyone who ever tells you that you have got you know all this infallible knowledge being given to you thanks to having a bishop of Rome just look around today but my thinking is what's that bishop gonna do once he finds out what he's got in his congregation and that these people are basically calling for new crusades what's what's gonna happen then don't know but could be interesting could really really really be interesting so what we're gonna do

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I'm gonna put my earphone in now since I didn't have to use it before what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to our phone line here and click on this here and say hello to Luke hi

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Luke hey how are you doing pretty good doing pretty good thanks for making time to call in today now folks will probably recognize your voice we talked for about an hour on the program a couple of months ago last year sometime

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I think if I recall correctly and we I'm sorry it was like the last show you did in December actually okay and we discussed then

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I shot a video in response to some some questions that you sent me that I posted on on on the web so you are in regular conversation with some

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Roman Catholic apologists who are seeking to get you to swim the

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Tiber River and so we've sent some material I you said are you like on vacation now or something yeah

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I'm visiting my grandparents in Florida okay well we sent you sent you another book so thank you because you had asked about James 2 and so we sent you the guy who justifies which has 24 page chapter on on that particular subject so that should be waiting for you when you when you get back but you had some questions you had more questions and so I have your letter here do you just want me to go through the letter do you just want to raise them for yourself okay well the first question you had was what was the first church like was it the

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Catholic Church than the Greek Orthodox Alexandrian and so forth all broke off and the RCC is the one that remained well that is somewhat of an anachronistic question because the term kata halas which became

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Catholic according to the whole became a term that was used later on to describe those churches that held communion with one another over against a schismatic group and those first schisms were almost always the result of persecution so for example one of the first things that caused the division was when the church would be persecuted normally that would happen in only one area at a time there might be some people who went into some form of apostasy either denied the faith or gave up the scriptures or whatever else it might be and then when the persecution stopped they wanted to come back into the church and there were lots of differences as to whether they could or could not and this ended up leading to schisms and to divisions and both sides of course would claim to be the kata halas the according to the whole the ones that are tracing themselves back and so eventually though a couple hundred years down the road what you have is the use of Catholic verses for example you have the

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Novation schism and then the big one is the Donatus schism that Augustine was very much a part of in the

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North African churches which again came about because of persecution to where you had as many as 700 bishops in the

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Donatus church in North Africa and they would refer to themselves as the pure ones as the ones who had not been sullied by false ordination of bishops and things like that and that division stayed in that state all the way up until the

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Muslims came in and once the Muslims took over North Africa in the 660s 670s that time period pretty much all that stuff got wiped out because well that's what happens when

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Islam takes over so anyway what was the early church like well it would depend on where you went there was there was certainly diversity as we can see in the

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New Testament there looks like Corinth was a little bit different than the church at Ephesus I imagine that the the worship services at Ephesus would be a little bit different than the ones at Corinth that's even seen we look at the book of Revelation at the at the beginning of the book of Revelation the description made of the seven churches there but what is very plain and what is very clear and this is what

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I've challenged Roman Catholics on for quite some time is that what you did not have was a papacy there was no singular bishop of Rome in the city of Rome until about 140

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AD and they didn't seem to think that that was a problem because no one had the idea of a universal head of the

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Catholic Church at that time but it's just that you had bishops in some churches and in other churches you had a plurality of elders and so for example when

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Ignatius of Antioch writes to the church at Rome he writes to her who has the presidency in that area not he doesn't write to a bishop doesn't even name a bishop writes to other bishops names the bishop but recognizes there is no single bishop in the church at Rome and so there were two different views of church government that existed at that time period as well eventually over time the single bishop model would take over from the plurality of elders now

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I think the Bible is pretty clear it's a plurality of elders that's what was established by the Apostles but over time the single bishop idea single bishop of a city church and then those bishops would come together and then they would have someone who is above them and eventually you have the development of in the

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Eastern churches the concept of a patriarch and in the West you see if you look at a map

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Luke and you sort of draw a line of the ancient Mediterranean world you draw a line right down the middle what you discover is on the right -hand side the eastern side you'll have a number of cities that claimed to have been have their church founded by an apostle and so they claimed apostolic authority so Alexandria and Jerusalem and eventually

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Constantinople and Antioch and so on and so forth these become the great patriarchs of the

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Eastern Orthodox eventually again over time but there's only one on the other side of the line it's interesting even today when you look at the church organization of the

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Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Eastern Orthodox in the East what's it based on well in the

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West it's based upon the primacy of the Pope because there was only one in the East it's based upon the collegiality of the patriarchs together with with one another because that's what they always had they had multiple churches said hey we were founded by by an apostle and so they gave special authority to those particular churches but I think the thing to remember

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Luke is that even when we get to the first council the first what's called the first ecumenical council within Roman Catholicism is not the first Council of Church History Acts 15 to be the first one but even when you get to Nicaea what you discover is and this is a challenge

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I've made many many times I challenge any Roman Catholic to show me anyone at the

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Council of Nicaea who believed as dogmatic religious truth what a

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Roman Catholic must believe to be a Roman Catholic today name me one person and I've never gotten an answer because there is no answer it's impossible there was no one at the

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Council of Nicaea who believed that the bishop of Rome was the infallible head of all Christians there's absolutely no evidence that whatsoever nobody there is nobody at the

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Council of Nicaea who believed there was a dogma to believe in the concept of purgatory indulgences anything like that at all there is no one at the

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Council of Nicaea who believed in the bodily assumption of Mary these things have all been defined by Rome at a later time and yet all the bishops who were involved in what is arguably the most important self -definitional

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Council of the entirety of Church history not a one of them believe the things you have to believe to be a

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Roman Catholic today that means that the Roman Catholic Church today is not the

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Catholic Church of 2000 years ago and what anybody says no no and now how to get around it real simple

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Cardinal Newman recognized the reality of this he recognized that history stands against the claims that Rome is making so he came up with what's called the development hypothesis and he basically likened truth to the eight the the acorn and the and the fully grown tree so what you have in the

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New Testament is the acorn but it must grow and it must develop and eventually becomes this this great tree and so all this stuff that comes later all this stuff about indulgences and all this stuff about infallibility of the

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Pope and all the Marian dogmas and and the the proliferation of sacraments and and a sacerdotal priesthood and and all the rest of stuff that's the growth of the acorn now what that does is it shows us that this whole claim of being apostolic well it's a joke you're not talking about teaching what the

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Apostles taught all you're doing is saying well we are connected to the Apostles and have the authority to teach these things even though they never did even though they never did so when you look at the early church you're going to see diversity in that early church especially during the period of time the

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New Testament is still being written and the question then becomes what direction then do we see taking place in the church in the centuries thereafter and what influenced that development and I would argue that what you see is some of the great the great developments that take place is you see a disconnection from the

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Jewish background of the New Testament because of the fight between Christians and Jews because of that persecution of the early

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Christians by the Jews you end up with this this division to where many

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Christians lose a meaningful knowledge of what was actually in the Old Testament and what the

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Jewish backgrounds to the New Testament were so that by the time even of origin you can start having allegorical interpretation come in which is still very popular amongst

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Roman Catholics to where you the surface meaning or the historical meaning or the contextual meaning of the words especially the

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Old Testament those are considered almost irrelevant there is a deeper spiritual meaning and as a result the knowledge of the

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Old Testament the knowledge of the languages of the Old Testament there are only two early church fathers who read and were proficient in both biblical languages both

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Greek and Hebrew and that's that's that's origin drone by the way and that's really to blame for a lot of for example the misunderstanding the book of Hebrews if you understand the book of Hebrews which is so based in the

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Old Testament then you're you're never gonna have a proper doctrine of the atonement and the cross and things like that and so you see a movement away from biblical truth because of a a loss of a a meaningful interpretational methodology to allow the

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Bible to be the Bible and then you have the external issue and that is toward the end of the fourth century

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Theodosius declares the crumbling Roman Empire to be a Christian empire and now everybody just gets sprinkled and voila you're now a

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Christian so while I'm sorry I like saying well I just drive people crazy but anyway while everyone's a

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Christian and the result of that is a massive influx of unregenerate unbelievers who become nominally

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Christian and to keep them happy you sort of start bringing in a lot of their practices as we see happening in in Mexico and and South America today where you have this strange mixture of Roman Catholicism and and the pagan religions and so on so forth and that started taking place and so you start having the development of monasticism the ascendancy of all these saints and so on so forth that are just barely concealed references to other deities and so on so forth and so you start seeing that movement in that direction much more nominalism where you have a

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Christianity that starts developing that has very little connection to the Bible it's not driven by biblical exegesis but again it depends on where you want to say well what was the church like in this place in this century in this place in another century depends on where you're looking there's no simple answer to that question but what is obvious I think to anyone who deals with church history in a in a meaningful fashion and doesn't just assume well

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I'm going to read church history in the way the Pope tells me to read church history if you actually look at it in a much more fair fashion you will see that those poor believers in the first century that suffered under Roman persecution did not believe the things that a person has to leave to be a

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Roman Catholic today so there's the first question secondly obviously sola scriptura was a term that was not coined until the

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Reformation well actually there are patristic references to it but it wasn't an argument in the way it was until the

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Reformation mainly because the whole concept of sacred tradition had not yet developed to the point where it needed to be but was the doctrine known or practiced thing prior

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I hear the claim that wasn't even a thought until the sixth century so well again there are tons of references in the three volume set called

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Holy Scripture which we have available I think the third volume is nothing but patristic references and again each early church father is going to have his or her own unique takes on things there are honestly

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I don't think it would be very difficult for a well prepared non

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Roman Catholic and a well -prepared Catholic to fill a four hour debate with nothing but quotes on both sides of this issue on the one side the our side we could provide numerous citations from many early church fathers stating the absolute supremacy of Scripture stating that Scripture is sufficient for all things

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Athanasius said that he of course is the one who stood against the external church of his day to defend the deity of Christ I I would love to see a

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Roman Catholic explain Athanasius behavior from their perspective because Athanasius was told he was wrong by the formal church of the day and by gathered bishops and and yet he said

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Scripture says this and that doesn't sound like a Roman Catholic to me but anyway on the other side you would have people who would quote text about apostolic tradition will quote text about well we learn from the from those who came before us and and the apostolic tradition to do this that and the other thing and what would happen if there was enough time is you go back into many not all because I don't

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I don't believe that all the early church fathers were in harmony with one another in fact

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I think there's only one doctrine that I could name that they all held consistently together and that there's only one true

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God I think that's the only only doctrine that that you could absolutely prove from the early church fathers was something that they all they all held together there you know

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I can look at the early church fathers and allow the early church fathers to be the early church fathers I don't have to make them

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I don't think they're reformed Baptists I don't think there are Presbyterians I don't think they were

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Anglicans and they wouldn't have had a clue what you would have what you were talking about if you had said are you

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Roman Catholic because Roman Catholic is a contradiction in terms Catholic means according the whole

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Rome is going to specific so putting the two together is is a very strange not thing they wouldn't have understood what you're even asking about and so once I can actually allow the early church fathers to be the diverse group that they are the other side has to turn them into this consistent body of people who are teaching

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Roman Catholic theology and as a result I think I can give you far more evidence of the broad recognition of the unique character of scripture is having final authority than anything else because for example even when someone like Athanasius uses the term apostolic tradition if you look at each time that he did that what he's talking about is a summary of what the

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Apostles taught in Scripture not some is passed down outside of Scripture but a summary of what was taught in Scripture and very rarely do

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Roman Catholic apologists accurately engage in that kind of stuff I wrote about this in a fairly lengthy article on the the evidence for sola scriptura in the early church in a book called here it is this is the old version

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I think it is that there's a new version of this isn't there I I I think this is available from I think this is still available because someone mentioned on Twitter I think either

42:56

Ligonier has it or Sola Deo Gloria I'm not sure which one because they split back off again but anyways called sola scriptura the

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Protestant position on the Bible and my chapter is titled sola scriptura and the early church and it it's it's fairly fairly lengthy and you might find it useful it's it's about 35 pages somewhere along there and lots of references that you could look up in there on that particular subject so no it does exist prior to the 6th century but again the issues that are being debated now we're not being debated then there had been no development of the concept of papacy there been no development of of this concept of sacred tradition that now exists in Roman Catholicism today so you're not gonna be debating the subject and so if you look at the actual context of what was being debated and then ask did people believe that the scripture was the final source of authority did they believe that there were well some some did believe that there were traditions passed down by the

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Apostles in fact I think I mentioned this to you the earliest reference the term apostolic tradition is in reference to Irenaeus saying that he knew by apostolic tradition that Jesus was more than 50 years old when he was crucified now you won't find any

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Roman Catholic theologian scholar anybody else who believes that Irenaeus was right about that but that's the first time it appears and if in the very first time it appears in the patristic writings we all agree it's wrong how much weight can you put on what comes 200 years after that or 300 years after that or in the case the bodily assumption of Mary what

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Irenaeus 1800 years after that when someone claims apostolic tradition

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I like to go can you trace that for me please can you show that to me in history and the reality is they can't they can't do it so since that wasn't even on the table as yet then the discussion you shouldn't expect there to be a full discussion of debates that were happening but when we do find discussions that would allow us to look at that we have people like Gregory of Nyssa saying we make the holy scriptures the canon and rule of every dogma and we accept only what can be made conformable to those teachings so they're there they're just not in the collections of Catholic answers normally puts out ah thank you

45:52

Jamie Alford Jamie Alford just I don't know if you have Twitter but just provide a link to that very book from Ligonier org so what's that rich yeah you got to get that back in stock because we used to carry that so so there is yet another book if you don't mind

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Luke number three is about James two and I just sent you I'm not sure if you're watching anymore there's probably a delay between the two but I'll hold up for you anyways

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I just sent you the God who justifies and chapter oh where is it there it is

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James attacks empty faith it is chapter 20 beginning on page 329 as I said it is a very lengthy chapter

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I only know of one Roman Catholic who has attempted a response and ironically that particular

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Roman Catholic can't read Greek and since most of it is based upon the exegesis of the text the result was not overly relevant to our purposes but I would challenge you to carefully read

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James chapter I'm sorry that chapter in the book regarding James chapter 2 the key is rather simple in James chapter 2 and you can hear it in the in the title of the chapter

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I gave in James chapter 2 verse 14 reads what use is it my brethren if someone says he has faith but he has no works can that faith save him and the issue is what kind of faith is

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James talking about and by looking at the at the examples he gives from the Old Testament can we understand what it is that he's he's saying and as the reformers themselves say we are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone because my faith doesn't come from me my faith is a work of the

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Holy Spirit of God within me and so the question is what's the nature of saving faith and what's the object of saving faith and does saving faith have to be joined with something else to bring about salvation or if it's a true saving faith will there be the continuing work of the

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Holy Spirit in the person's life that then gives evidence of the fact that the Spirit is active in their life that's what

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James is talking about so I would direct you to that for a full discussion of that all right yeah go ahead no

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I heard you okay all right regarding the William Webster book the Matthew 16 controversy you quoted evidently you sent to your friend a quotation

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Christ who searches the hearts did not ask his disciples who do men say that I the

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Son of Man am because he did not know the varying opinion men concerning himself but was desirous of teaching all that same confession confession which

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Peter inspired by him laid as the basis and foundation which the Lord had built his church Christ is the rock abiding unshaken when he was incarnate that's from Isidore of Pelusium and the response sent to you said quote the

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Catholic Church agrees it teaches that Christ is the rock and the Apostles including Peter in particular sharing

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Christ ministry as the rock they share in his rockness the rock makes smaller rocks to share in his authority

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Ephesians 220 says the church is built on the foundation the Apostles and prophets Christ Jesus himself being chief cornerstone this quote in no way contradicts what the

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Catholic Church teaches and what all the early Christians believe that the primacy spoken of Matthew 1618 is

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Peter now I just stop right there where would you get that from what Isidore said you wouldn't this is being read into it you wouldn't get that if you just read that quotation you would get the idea that he was saying

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Christ is the rock ah but you see Rome tells you but everybody believed this and so you just to read it into it you don't have to get it from the text itself we tell you it's there therefore it's there that's not how you exegete anything you wouldn't appreciate if your writings were read that way you wouldn't appreciate if people read stuff into you what you say that way goes on like I said in order to disprove the

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Catholic position and demonstrate there was not unanimity amongst the early Christians that Peter was the rock you'll need to find fathers who specifically said

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Peter was not the rock or at least one father who said that now this is an awesome example of the circularity of the

50:35

Roman Catholic position it's it was very well illustrated when I debated gerrymatics of Boston College well before you were born in 1893 where we debated the canon of the

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Old Testament and what I point out the end of the debate was that fundamentally the

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Roman Catholic position is the Roman Catholic canon the Old Testament is correct because we say so end of debate and here and here this is illustrating sola ecclesiae again because what have

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I said sola ecclesiae is the church defines what Scripture is and what

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Scripture says the church defines what tradition is and what tradition says so the point is well

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Rome has said everybody agreed so when you read early church fathers yeah it may sound like they're saying something different but they all agreed because we say so hopefully you can see that that's a circular argument that that is that is not how you would want your writings to be interpreted or anyone else for that matter but let me just remind you of what

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Roman Catholicism says we therefore for the preservation safekeeping increase the

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Catholic flock with the approval of the sacred council do judge it to be necessary to propose the belief and acceptance of all the faithful in accordance with the ancient and constant faith of the universal church the doctrine touching the institution perpetuity and nature of the sacred primacy and then quoting from all those texts including

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Matthew 16 at open variance this clear doctrine of Holy Scripture as it has been ever understood by the

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Catholic Church are the perverse opinions of those who while they distort the form of government established by Christ the

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Lord and his church deny that Peter in his single person preferably to all the other apostles were taken separately or together was endowed by Christ the true and proper primacy of jurisdiction or of those who assert the same primacy was not bestowed immediately and directly upon blessed

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Peter himself but upon the church and through the church on Peter as her minister well

52:55

I asked some friends in channel this morning of our chat channel what they thought their favorite quote to provide you might be and I will be very honest that I chose one that was suggested me by a very bright gentleman who has debated these subjects many times you would be well to listen to some of the debates that he has done he goes by the name of turrets and fan and turrets and fan recommended the following citation

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I think you'll find to be very useful this is from sermon 26 by Augustin Augustin on the rock now you know who

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Saint Augustin was right Matt yeah okay you know

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Luke I'm sorry Matt Luke Matthew I was reading math here you know who Gaston was all right listen to what

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Augustin said the gospel which has just been read touching the Lord Christ who walked in the waters of the sea and the

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Apostle Peter who as he was walking tottered through fear and sinking in distrust rose again by confession gives us to understand that the sea is the present world and the

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Apostle Peter the type of the one church for Peter in the order the Apostles first and in love of Christ most forward answers oftentimes alone for all the rest again when

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Lord Jesus Christ asked whom men said that he was and when the disciples gave the various opinions of men and the

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Lord asked again said but whom say ye that I am Peter answered thou art the Christ the

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Son of the Living God one for many gave the answer unity in many then said the

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Lord to him blessed art thou Simon by Jonas for flesh and blood not revealed unto thee but my father which is in heaven then he added and I say unto thee as if he had said because thou has said unto me thou art the

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Christ the Son of the Living God I also say unto thee thou art Peter for before he was called

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Simon now the same of Peter was given to him by the Lord and that in a figure that he should signify the church for seeing that Christ is the rock

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Petra Peter is the Christian people for the rock Petra is the original name therefore

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Peter is so -called from the rock not the rock from Peter as Christ is not called Christ from the

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Christian but the Christian from Christ therefore he says thou art Peter and upon this rock which thou has confessed upon this rock which thou has to acknowledge saying thou art the

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Christ the Son of the Living God I will build my church that is upon myself the

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Son of the Living God will I build my church I will build thee upon myself not myself upon thee for men who wish to be built upon me upon men

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I'm sorry for a man who wish to be built upon men said I am of Paul I have Apollos I have Cephas who is

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Peter but others who did not wish to be built upon Peter but upon the rock said but I am of Christ and when the

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Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen in Christ despised he said is Christ divided was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized the name of Paul and as not a name of Paul so neither name of Peter but the name of Christ that Peter might be built upon the rock not the rock upon Peter now if Augustine believed as modern

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Roman Catholic councils demand us to believe he could not have said those words he said the exact opposite those words and Luke he acted exactly opposite those words because when the

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Pelagian controversy was raging and a man went to Rome and deceived the

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Bishop of Rome into overturning the discipline of the North African bishops had placed upon him when the

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Pope said the North Africans you need to rescind the condemnation of this individual they refused to do it and eventually forced the

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Pope to back down on a doctrinal issue that's what Augustine did he led the

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North Africans to do so so here we are 400 years later and it is painfully obvious it was painfully obvious during the days of Cyprian when he had his battles with Stephen the imperious

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Bishop of Rome it was painfully obvious when the

57:26

Bishop of Rome was mocked with the title pontifex maximus which was the name of the pagan priest the high priest the pagan religion it's painfully obvious in Augustine that what

57:37

Vatican one Vatican two what modern Roman Catholicism has said concerning the office the papacy is a blatant historical deception easily documentable if someone will take the time to actually read the documents now again if you believe in sola ecclesia if you've bought into that system then what they can say is oh but wait a minute you don't get to interpret those early church fathers only we get to interpret those early church fathers and so the context the history the language all goes out the window and it just doesn't mean that it just doesn't mean that and Luke you gave me an example of that in your letter you gave me an example of that because when you raise the question about the blessed man from Romans chapter 4 the response you got is the response of a follower of sola ecclesia because it wasn't a response to the biblical text because there is no response to biblical text in Roman Catholic position there really isn't the the

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Roman Catholic teaching of the gospel has no meaningful interaction with the book of Romans verses for a chapter 4 verses 7 -8 because there is no non imputation of sin in Roman Catholicism so the the answer that was given to you was the biggest thing to me is the canon of the

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Bible and the fact the Bible nowhere teaches sola scriptura or even tells us what books belong in the Bible I'd say you should gather the arguments you think best for Catholicism and see if he must be me can give you a better answer also tell them that we love him and want to come home well

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I am home I've never been away from home and Rome is not the home of any person who understands the cross of Jesus Christ so that's that's not gonna happen anytime soon but that's not a response

59:24

Luke that's a dodging that that's not a response to what Romans 4 says it is an inculcation of distrust in the word well how do you know that those books are ours books you're supposed to have well all they're doing is wiping out the line the sand and moving it back afoot they're saying well you don't have an infallible canon well how do you have an infallible canon because the

59:50

Rome because Rome tells you so how do you know Rome's infallible well it just is is that an answer to something of course not all it does is move the question back one one step it's not an answer it's a it's deceptive it really is so I would press the

01:00:09

Romans for question because Rome's gospel does not have an answer to the question of who the blessed man is they do not have non -imputation of sin if you commit a venial sin in Roman Catholicism it is imputed to you you will bear its punishment and end up in purgatory working off the temporal punishments of those sins if you not work them off by suffering in this life if you commit a mortal sin you lose the grace of justification could end up in hell now again

01:00:36

I don't know what the current Pope believes any of that but I have to leave that to them to figure out when their system starts collapsing around them as to what they're supposed to believe

01:00:44

I'm just simply telling you the historical reality of what used to be taught and whether that's still believed or not by the current

01:00:51

Pope I don't know nobody knows I think that really should weigh heavily upon you because you're being invited to join a system

01:00:58

Luke that really doesn't have any final answers to these questions any longer it really really really doesn't

01:01:04

I mean this Pope is amazing yes sir go ahead did you happen to see the most recent

01:01:12

I believe email he sent back with like a full response to the question followed by a question to you know what what emails that is the most recent one

01:01:24

I believe I'm not gonna read it all because he wrote it a fair amount but then he ended it with the

01:01:30

Bible talks about how Abraham was justified multiple times how do you reconcile that with your Calvinistic beliefs very good so so Luke let's think about that for a second he's stealing that from St.

01:01:42

Genes so you can go back and listen to our debate on justification you know who that's an argument with that's not argument with me and my

01:01:49

Calvinistic beliefs that's an argument with Paul this is the argument that Jews use against Paul being an apostle

01:01:58

I hope he's comfortable using that kind of argument let's let's make sure people understand what the argument is the argument in regards to justification takes us back to the the question of was

01:02:13

Abraham justified multiple times in his life and so they will talk about Genesis 15 6 and they will talk about Genesis 12 and the talk about Genesis 22 and they will assume based upon a completely different argument and by the way

01:02:42

I all respect your friend he's borrowing his arguments from other people he didn't develop themselves I recognize all of them you know like you asked me did you know that St.

01:02:51

Genes wrote a book called not by scripture alone yeah I've been doing this a little while I'm aware of it but my book was actually written after his was the argument is that if Abraham was justified many times and evidently he must have committed mortal sins and lost the grace of justification or something

01:03:13

I don't know but the justification is something that is done multiple times in our lives here's the problem what is

01:03:24

Paul's argument in Romans chapter 4 specifically right after those verses that you quoted to him let me start verse 6

01:03:37

Romans 4 just as David also speaks the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works and then our citation from the

01:03:45

Psalter bless are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven bull and whose sins have been covered blessed is the man whose sin the

01:03:53

Lord will not take account or literally blesses the man to whom the

01:03:58

Lord will not impute sin like it's a my is the term that is used there but it goes on is this blessing then on the circumcised or on the uncircumcised also for we say faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness how then was it credited while he was circumcised or uncircumcised not while circumcised but while uncircumcised and he received a sign of circumcision to seal the righteousness of the faith which had was uncircumcised so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised that righteousness and that might be credited to them so what's the point

01:04:39

Paul places the point of Abraham's justification specifically in history at Genesis 15 6 it can't be

01:04:53

Genesis 22 because why he's circumcised by them so if you say that he's justified multiple times including

01:05:03

Genesis 22 you are specifically saying Paul was wrong in Romans chapter 4 your argument is with Paul your argument is with Scripture now that wouldn't be the first time that I've had a

01:05:18

Roman Catholic willing to argue with Scripture on the basis of the higher authority of the quote -unquote church but for most of us that illustrates what the real issue is so we've heard all this stuff before you can go back to the writings of the time of the

01:05:33

Reformation none of this is new the only thing could possibly be new is that in the modern period because of liberalism existing on both sides of the

01:05:44

Tiber River the the conversation has become a little more muddled because there's not as much trust in the

01:05:55

Bible as the Word of God to be perfectly honest with you so for example when I find Roman Catholic apologists borrowing from N .T.

01:06:02

Wright or people like that that that might be something that's new but it wasn't a part initially because modernism well it's a modern thing so obviously there's been some new things but Rome it's very odd when

01:06:21

Rome starts using liberalism given that she's trying to uphold for example a system such the papacy that historians have recognized is clearly the result of historical development over time that its primary development took place based upon fraudulent documents that no one believes are accurate anymore history is is a is a is is poison to the

01:06:47

Roman system that's why they have to only give it out in dribs and drabs and only on particular topics hey can

01:06:56

I uh you recall the screen flow video you made regarding my email yeah can

01:07:03

I sent it over to the Catholic and can I send you or can I read you what he wrote in response sure also he's just sending me links on Facebook right now um which are supposedly

01:07:16

I haven't read them yet rebuttals about their position well why doesn't he call in why won't he debate me I don't know

01:07:23

I mean I mean it's not the first time we've discussed these things and when we when we actually get down to dealing see here's here's the problem when we do formal debates you get to have cross -examination and when you when you're in a situation like you're in right now playing ping -pong you listen to one side and then you go to the side and they give you their stuff and then you get back the other side and they give you their stuff instead of the cross -examination that allows you to hear both sides at the same time that's the only way that you can actually make any progress is that's why formal debate is a dying art

01:08:17

I mean we don't we don't hear it in our political system anymore it's it's it's it's considered politically incorrect on most university campuses because you might offend somebody but when you hear both sides and yes

01:08:32

I can go wait a minute wait a minute why are you quoting that given the context of this particular early church father or given the fact that you know

01:08:41

Augustine was dealing with this issue don't you see that means this or that kind of that kind of meaningful interaction without that you're just going to be left blowing in the wind

01:08:54

Luke to be perfectly honest with you back and forth and I hope what you see is that what these guys are trying to do is to get you to embrace the ultimate authority of their system so that it's no longer open to being criticized how can you if sola ecclesia is true if the

01:09:15

Pope is infallible then on what basis can you even examine on a fair basis where the statement of Rome that this is the as it has ever been understood when

01:09:32

I show you clear evidence that Cyprian didn't understand that what you know what Cyprian's understanding of the of the

01:09:38

Cathedral Petri was you know Cathedral Petri means it means the seat of Peter you know what his understanding that was you know who sat in the seat of Peter well the

01:09:47

Bishop of Rome did so did Cyprian and so did every other bishop in the world and he used that as an argument against the

01:09:56

Bishop of Rome who was trying to throw his weight around so doesn't he count what happened to this universal view it's not a universal view it developed over time it developed slowly over time and the major movement in establishing the modern papacy was based upon fraudulent documents have you looked up the donation of Constantine of the pseudo -Isidorean decretals look them up find out for yourself now obviously not in every debate can you get to the depth of doing all that stuff but that's what you got to do and you know it really comes down Luke honestly to what are you looking for I mean what what's what's going to answer the question for you

01:10:51

Luke hey sorry I just had the call drop it to be reconnected what was the question oh

01:10:57

I'm sorry oh okay I just I I put something up in front of the screen I couldn't see it what's what's it gonna take for you to come to a conclusion on this issue

01:11:11

I honestly don't know if I'm transparent with the work in progress okay

01:11:21

I guess authority is the biggest thing why why is it why isn't the gospel hmm why isn't the gospel

01:11:32

I don't know what you're asking why isn't the gospel the biggest thing you say authority is the biggest thing so what you're saying is well you only know the gospel is it's defined by a particular authority and yet when you look at the gospel of Rome no one no one can look at the

01:11:53

New Testament and say oh yeah purgatory indulgences prayers to saints and Mary it's all over the place no it's not it's nowhere so to get you to believe that other gospel which will put you on the treadmill of sacraments and penances and confessions and just running that that that that you know always have to do the same things over and over and over again doing that repeated sacrifice over and over and over again

01:12:25

I know one sacrifice represented yeah I get it to get you into that gospel they've got to tell you that what

01:12:36

God has given you in Scripture is not enough you need their authority now I point out to you that when

01:12:43

Jesus encountered people who made the very same argument his response was not a pleasant one remember

01:12:53

I pointed both in in in Mark and Matthew Jesus is talking to scribes and Pharisees and he says you're hypocrites you void the

01:13:02

Word of God for the sake of your traditions and what was the tradition he pointed to he pointed to the core bound rule now the core bound rule probably start off as a as a perfectly nice thing that you could actually dedicate your belongings to the temple so that they could help to provide worship for the people of God I imagine it had a you know a nice beginning but what it become was a means for you to protect your wealth from having to use it to support your aged parents by saying what's in support of the temple so I can't touch it but you can you still use it for yourself now that tradition the

01:13:44

Jews said came down from Moses orally through the great rabbis it came from God and it was simply passed down orally outside of Scripture but it is a divine tradition it is given to us by God and you you should believe it and what did

01:14:06

Jesus do with that he condemned it by comparison to what have you not read the scriptures which said honor your father and your mother and so he took the oral tradition he tested it by the written scriptures and said you should not ever have been following this now who is the infallible magisterium to interpret the scriptures in Jesus's day there wasn't one in fact you want to create an infallible magisterium amongst the

01:14:38

Jews then you've got to reject Rome you know why because they never accepted those deuterocanonical books they rejected them they were not considered

01:14:47

Scripture so you're on a hordes of a dilemma at that point the point is Jesus tested anything it claimed to come from God but outside of Scripture by what did come from Scripture and that was the scriptures and did come from odd which was the scriptures themselves and so are you gonna follow his lead there you can't as a

01:15:13

Roman Catholic you can't do it you you cannot obey Christ and the

01:15:18

Roman Church on the issue of authority can't be done can't be done and Jesus when he responded the

01:15:26

Sadducees said have you not read what was spoken to you by God that is he quotes from the

01:15:34

Pentateuch which is written 1400 years earlier as if God actually spoken those words to the men who are standing in front of him and that God would hold him accountable to those words nowhere in Scripture will you ever find any apostle teaching in such a way that you would believe that you have to do that with man's traditions and yet that's what you have to believe the

01:15:58

Roman Catholic in regards the bodily assumption of Mary some unknown yearly church first 500 years these dogmas that have developed over time so yeah they'll keep attacking the source of authority because the message they want you to accept was not taught by the

01:16:17

Apostles so you have to come up with some way of getting that outside of the

01:16:23

Bible there you go so until you're willing to follow

01:16:30

Christ at this point you will remain floating around and you won't have a solid foundation you won't know what the gospel is you won't have peace but the problem is

01:16:44

Luke even giving in won't give you peace if you give in you're giving away peace with God because now you're gonna have to accept a system of justification that precludes you from knowing that you have peace with God because you can know that you are in the state of justification state of grace you can't know whether you fulfilled the conditions which are necessary for obtaining the grace of justification so no peace no peace because you have no finished work no finished work so the choice is yours you can either follow

01:17:22

Jesus' command do what Athanasius did stand firm he said the sacred scriptures are sufficient in and of themselves or you can follow the teachings of men and at that point then you've got to choose well you know what traditions is it gonna be and do

01:17:42

I follow the modern -day Pope or do I go back and read the other Popes and you know the priest

01:17:48

I go to you know he may be very different from a priest down the road and understand what a mortal sin what is an immortal sin I mean there's a lot of diversity in Roman Catholicism you can find all sorts of liberal

01:17:57

Roman Catholics and all sorts of stuff like that I mean look what's happening in the Philippines right now supposed to be a almost totally

01:18:03

Roman Catholic nation and yet what happened to Manny Pacoa the fighter he's running for Senate there and he dared he's become a

01:18:10

Christian he dared to say that he cannot support homosexuality and in a quote -unquote

01:18:15

Roman Catholic country they're coming after him with pitchforks so you can find any kind of Roman Catholicism you can find pro -abortion

01:18:23

Roman Catholics and you know people who pick and choose what part of Roman Catholicism they're gonna leave it's all over the place and Rome doesn't get rid of them so you're you're you're who are you gonna follow then you're your friends are they infallible hmm there's the question there's the question so we're gonna there's gonna be a bunch of folks in this audience that are they're praying for you that you will you'll do the study that needs to be done and that you by the

01:18:55

Spirit of God will record will hear the voice of Christ because the voice of Christ is not calling you to believe in doctrines that were never revealed the

01:19:04

Apostles of Jesus Christ that's not the voice that's not the Spirit of God that's not the Word of God that's something else that's something else all righty sure but when you gonna get back so you can take a look at the what we sent you but you repeat that I'm sorry when you are are you gonna be able to get hold that book fairly soon you'd be heading home fairly soon

01:19:35

I get back Tuesday okay all right so there will be there it'll be like Christmas there will be a there'll be a package waiting mm -hmm except like many

01:19:45

Christmases that I've had I already knew what was in there anyway so it won't be that all that exciting but anyhow you had one more question you're breaking up on me really bad okay

01:20:07

Luke better yeah that's better what's all right grab hold of a steel pole or something yeah all right it's good yeah all right he says

01:20:23

I respected admire mr. white for all of the work he does and I was really hoping he would give me some real objections to the faith that I could look into in research but he's incredibly misrepresenting the

01:20:32

Catholic Church the when I'm literally baffled that he's saying what he's saying he misunderstands very elementary principles concerning the church

01:20:38

I'll prove it if you want to jump on the phone which I didn't do it that's the list of examples and uh what do you say sure one was about the

01:20:48

Catholic Church's unity in doctrine official teaching we don't mean that some people won't dissent we mean that the church's doctrine is completely unified if it has been for 2 ,000 years um white tries to make the opinion that's that's transparently untrue show me a single person the council and I see a believe me by the assumption of Mary he can't doesn't happen and yet that's a dogma you have to believe

01:21:14

I'm sorry I know the young man believes what Catholic answers has told him he's been deceived he's been lied to I mean show me one you can't do it

01:21:23

I've put that challenge out here forever give it to him right now if you're in contact with him

01:21:28

I'm sure he'll be able to start giving you names immediately right no I'm sorry he's listening right now yeah well there you go this is not this is not unified doctrine for 2 ,000 years that's a lie

01:21:41

I'm sorry but it the the dogmas that have been defined on the basis of tradition seven

01:21:49

Popes taught against the concept of the Immaculate Conception of Mary how is that unified that is only unified once you accept sola ecclesia and the church says oh it's unified okay it is and you no longer have the freedom to be able to examine those sources in their own context and to be able to see well wow there's been real development yeah there has been developed no question about it so don't give me this unified stuff it's not true so continue on that's that's just simply an untruth yeah subsequent to that the last part

01:22:27

I'll give you he said uh another is how he which is you stated in his video or started his video claiming that Pope Francis is somehow teaching different doctrine than any other of the

01:22:37

Popes he isn't he's simply he's simply emphasizing different points that he feels need to be emphasized in our modern world there's no new doctrines new focuses okay

01:22:45

I'll tell you what Luke go yeah get whatever you want from Francis and then go read the papal syllabus of errors

01:23:01

I think the date I haven't looked it up in a long time

01:23:06

I could probably google it here real quickly but the papal syllabus of errors let me get the the date for you papal syllabus of errors there it is and the date on that 1862

01:23:24

I was gonna say 1852 I was I was I was close 1862 read the papal syllabus of errors and then tell me that Francis believes what the

01:23:40

Pope wrote in 1862 now is 1862 that long ago

01:23:46

I mean it may seem like a long time to you you're young but in comparison to quote -unquote 2 ,000 years it is painfully obvious that Francis is at minimal theologically a inclusivist you know what an inclusivist is

01:24:05

I think I'm losing you here Luke better okay yeah

01:24:13

I can hear you better do you know what inclusivism is inclusivism is the idea that you can be saved by Jesus without knowing who

01:24:27

Jesus is as long as you made some kind of positive faith move toward a deity that that would be accepted as being enough okay

01:24:38

I think there are a lot of inclusivists in the Roman hierarchy and that that's a little bit different from being a universalist who believes everyone will be saved one way or the other and there's really no need for everyone to be saved by Jesus faith no faith doesn't matter obviously they're really related

01:25:00

I think Francis is one of those two and it is painfully obvious that the bishops of Rome of the past were none of those things now that's a big difference that's a huge change but once you believe in sola ecclesia if the

01:25:18

Pope says it that's the end right mm -hmm and can you are you even allowed

01:25:23

Luke to go back and read earlier papal pronouncements and interpret them because well there you go if you can't then you're stuck huh so why why even bother arguing that it's been the same belief for 2 ,000 years when the reality is no one can go back and look because you simply have to trust that Rome says that it is

01:25:42

I mean you do realize this is pretty much what the Mormons say about praying about the

01:25:49

Book of Mormon right I mean I hope I hope you don't buy used cars on the basis of this stuff because it's so obviously circular

01:25:58

I'm hearing a lot of noises in the background sounds like someone's wrapping you up in a box oh yeah terrible service out here

01:26:07

I'm sorry it's just really bad service out here I'm sorry about that no problem no problem all right take a look at that and take a look at the book and you know just take your time all right thank you don't be pushed into anything man don't be pushed anything all right thank you all right thanks for the call

01:26:30

God bless well folks I know that when

01:26:41

I said a few minutes ago that there will be many people praying for Luke that's in this audience that is true

01:26:52

Luke is under tremendous amount of pressure from zealous Roman Catholic apologists and what you're hearing is the result of the fact that in our churches most of us are non

01:27:12

Catholics of convenience taste and tradition not conviction

01:27:21

I've I have spoken about this many times most non

01:27:28

Roman Catholics today are so out of ignorance not out of knowledge and so I think everybody in this audience would agree with me that most young people would go through their education in school and in their homes that any meaningful knowledge of what the issues the

01:27:49

Reformation were what the solos are why they're relevant anything like that now

01:27:56

I'm very thankful to men like Mike Porter Warren Smith and the

01:28:06

Sunday school teachers at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church that's not the case with our young people they will reach adulthood with a firm understanding of what the issues were and they'll certainly hear from the pulpit when

01:28:23

I'm preaching and certainly when Pastor Fry is preaching but vast majority of churches quote -unquote youth ministry

01:28:31

I'm sorry but this is a statement of truth is not youth ministry it is youth entertainment and as a result you can see what can happen now we've answered all these things a thousand times before and we will keep answering them in the future but that's why we're here pray for Luke because whenever I listen to Catholic answers live

01:29:04

I hear many other Luke's calling in and they're not getting the other side they don't know this information's out there at least

01:29:14

Luke does and if you hear people saying these things you see people looking into this information warn them give them the resources to be able to respond the issue really is comes down to the gospel and if you care about these folks these will be the issues and I forgot rich I forgot to deal with one last important thing don't hit the button

01:29:41

I'm sorry but since we are really serious right now let's talk for the fast fast the last few minutes about something really serious and I was gonna do this beforehand but Lord had his purposes go the serious camera no this is this is a good enough this is a good enough serious camera

01:30:08

Antonin Scalia practicing believing

01:30:16

Roman Catholic said all sorts of wonderful things about about many things brilliant mind reminds me a lot of GK Chesterton brilliant mind insightful

01:30:35

Roman Catholic if you are a non

01:30:41

Roman Catholic who recognizes the vital importance of the gospel of Jesus Christ that it is not a side issue if you recognize that it is definitional of the

01:30:59

Christian faith then you already are aware of the fact that that belief will prioritize everything else as you look at the interaction of the

01:31:14

Christian faith with world religions and especially look at the subject Roman Catholicism do

01:31:22

I believe that every single Roman Catholic is going to hell well if I were to say yes to that I'd also also have to say every single

01:31:29

Baptist or anybody else is going to hell because the only way to make that broad statement is to say that your religious affiliation does not determine your relationship with God and I do not believe your religious affiliation determines your relationship with God sadly there are people who sit every day every

01:31:51

Lord's Day at least in Bible teaching churches who will end up under the eternal wrath of God you can go to hell from the pews of a

01:32:01

Catholic Church or a Baptist Church the issue is the gospel and where is the gospel being preached can

01:32:09

I guarantee the gospel is being preached in every Baptist Church no I can't and I guarantee the gospel being preached every

01:32:16

Presbyterian Church no I can't can I guarantee that the gospel is being preached in a

01:32:24

Roman Catholic Church there is a slight chance that you might run into some people who rebel against the official teachings of the church and actually stumble on the gospel but here's the problem if there is a person within the

01:32:45

Roman Catholic Communion who is a true Christian they are so in spite of the

01:32:52

Roman Catholic Church not because of it because the official dogmatic teachings of the

01:32:59

Roman Catholic Church are fundamentally opposed what is proclaimed in this book in the

01:33:07

Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church is a false gospel under the anathema of God does every

01:33:15

Roman Catholic believe what's in here no there are all sorts of liberals that don't believe what's in here because they don't really believe in divine revelation to begin with are there

01:33:26

Roman Catholics who stay in the

01:33:31

Roman Catholic Communion but understand grace I don't understand how

01:33:38

I think it's far more likely that you have simple people with a simple faith in Christ it's hard for me to understand how someone of the obvious intellectual capacity of Antonin Scalia could not understand what this means and by believing this end up embracing that which falls under the anathema of Galatians chapter 1 it's hard for me to grasp that I don't have much of a hope of that this really is where we find out whether we believe that scripture is the honest us or not because in the book of Galatians the

01:34:26

Apostle spoke of pseudo Delphi false brethren snuck in amongst us to spy out the freedom which we have in Christ to take us into slavery and we are not to put up with them for even a moment so the truth of the gospel would remain with the followers of Christ now

01:34:49

Rome has gone far beyond anything the Judaizers ever dreamed to add to the gospel far beyond far beyond so as long as Galatians is a part of the canon

01:35:05

New Testament I can see no other conclusion than then the official dogma of the

01:35:13

Roman Catholic Church is anathema and following that will not bring you salvation and hence

01:35:18

Roman Catholics must be evangelized do I know what Antonin Scalia believed

01:35:23

I do not I did not know him was he enough of a maverick to have believed the true gospel but without leaving the

01:35:33

Roman Catholic community I don't know I have no way of knowing but my fear is that many people will read the wonderful things he said and become muddled in their thinking and go well if someone as brilliant as him can remain a

01:35:50

Roman Catholic then it must not be that big of a deal there's nothing in the book of Galatians that says that the pseudo

01:35:58

Delphi were stupid there's nothing a book of Galatians that indicates to us that only smart people believe the gospel that's not the issue in fact it's just the opposite of the issue because I think as Paul said in 1st

01:36:14

Corinthians chapter 1 brethren look amongst you not many well -born not many wise coin the world God's chosen the foolish things the things that are not to shame the things which are and so can

01:36:29

I sit here and ironically use a term pontificate as to what happened to Antonin Scalia no but what

01:36:38

I can say on the authority of the Word of God is that the gospel of Roman Catholicism will not bring you peace and will not bring you eternal life and that must be the clarity of thought that we bring to the issue we are not called to judge an individual's heart because we don't know the heart but we are called to judge the message and the message of Rome is a message that does not have a finished work of Christ and so have

01:37:14

I seen any meaningful discussion of that I haven't really been looking I hope there has been some really good in -depth discussions of Antonin Scalia in the gospel

01:37:24

I just didn't see I know that most social media is really not the best place to try to do that but we must think carefully when given the opportunity to do so about these very topics and so I wanted to take a few moments to once again remind us be a not be a

01:37:50

Bible -believing Christian a non Roman Catholic because you are convicted by the

01:37:57

Word of God that you must be there is no there is no comfort in being a non

01:38:08

Roman Catholic of tradition taste or bigotry don't be a non

01:38:16

Roman Catholic because you're a jack chick wrong reasons you actually are in danger of becoming a

01:38:24

Roman Catholic because you got the wrong reasons for your rejection of Roman Catholicism think about these things we've covered a lot of ground today but I hope it's been useful to you thanks for being there we'll see you next time