Biblical Questions, Justification, and God's Holiness and Wrath

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Or just call me max headroom. You had to look on your face like okay, I know what that was I I was playing with some settings during the Milo intro, uh-huh and and and I bump something. Oh, I see. That's the.

One player works fine. But you know the thing defaulted to the wrong player which kind of well I'll be working.

Okay, thank you very much for that great start and this highly professional program Called the dividing line. I'm James white. You know, I even thought earlier but today you're going and the master of ceremony is the master of all things technical.

And I was gonna do this big intro it for rich, but I don't think you'd want to do that right now. So unknown person behind the key. Yeah the control board. In fact, I was I was insane saying in channel today.

It's seven seven seven five three three four three three four one already have a phone call coming in eight seven seven seven five three three three four one or dividing that line is the Skype address.

For some reason everybody in channel today got into this Star Wars haiku thing, which was really weird. But it reminded me of a story and I told the story in channel that when when that first Star Wars movie came out I was I was at this church and I was in the television ministry and I even did some television engineering.

I ran camera and all this stuff. This is this is a long time ago, obviously and The it was well known to everybody who worked in television that in the Death Star scene where Alderaan got blown away. And you know the guy with the really funky looking helmet.

Why would anybody have to wear a helmet that looked like that? But anyway, the guy the real funky looking helmet, you know pulls the the switch switch down.

And then.

The things come together and blows up. Alderaan, right? Well, everybody knew in TV that what that guy was sitting at Was called a grass valley switcher. It is a television switcher and the thing he was pulling down was how you went from one fade to another fade.

I hadn't you know, everybody knew what it was. Well, I told I was sort of proud about that. So I told and told the story in channel and Micah The Haseem son of Ramallah king of graphics came up with a YouTube video With that and it was specifically titled grass Valley switcher in Star Wars movie.

I was like, hey, look I was right see and I had never seen that thing. But I just it was just common knowledge everybody that that so that was a grass Valley switcher. I'm not sure if they make them anymore as a grass Valley 1600 I think or something like that.

This is back in the late 70s. So I'm sure that that's not made any longer since things have changed a little bit since then and technology has increased. But anyway Thanks for defining line today, you know last time was sort of the sublime lots of topics lots of interesting information and this time We start off with max headroom in Troy and the discussion of Star Wars.

So there there did things change over time. Hey, I tweeted this earlier this week, but Roger Olsen the one of the few people on the planet willing to call himself an Arminian. Openly without blushing about it.

Put up a blog article yesterday called what Calvinism I oppose and why and. That one of the sentences one of the paragraphs was that led me to become more outspoken about the matter and finally to write my forthcoming book against Calvinism rescuing God's reputation from radical reformed theology.

There's an interesting.

Topic.

Interesting title for a book Against Calvinism rescuing God's reputation from radical reformed theology. This seems to be a common theme. Everybody who picks up Bryson's works, especially Dave Hunt's works.

There was the big kerfuffle this week about Mark Cahill who I had never heard of before. To be perfect honest with you. I guess he's big in the street preacher movement. Put out a statement Calvinism the Bible which is nothing but a plagiarized.

Hob hob.

Hopscotch mishmash of George Bryson and Dave Hunt. The worst of both put into one, you know, four or five page statement and it basically says Calvinists are all going to hell.

So.

Same stuff there, you know, we need to protect God's reputation really by doing what? By putting man in charge of the universe by by saying God's doing the best he can by saying God created a universe in which He knew that God that man was going to have these capacities and abilities to bring about all this terrible horrible evil.

But he did it anyway, but he didn't actually have a purpose in doing it. Is that how you protect? God's God's reputation. I Don't know how any synergist can protect God's reputation. I really don't but it'll be interesting to see.

What what comes out of of that particular? Book it'll it'll I'm sure be interesting. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number. I guess if we do get enough phone calls I'll just go ahead and hang with them rather than with Going to Any pre-recorded stuff, you know, it's really freaking me out that you can't see the parking lot right now.

It's sort of I don't know. It's just so use I'm so used to seeing those monitors on and you're just sitting out there. And we're doing the max headroom thing and we were we don't have the monitor on is still not on I'm not sure.

Oh boy. That's an old TV. When it takes that long to turn on, you know that it is a very old television tube. Shooting radiation right on to you down there. So I guess we get enough phone calls we've got two of them right now and we've still got I think three lines open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Or Dividing dotline via Skype, which I believe we have one caller on that, but. Let's go ahead and and get started. Let's let's talk to James. Hi James. Doing pretty good.

Well, yeah, and.

Unfortunately, I'm getting a straight feedback directly from you. I'm not sure why so I'm hearing myself twice. So it's it's a bad phone or something, but I will try to address that actually there's a couple of articles on the blog if you will look up Colin Smith's articles on the subject of predestination in Islam.

That would be the best thing to do. The term is Qatar. So you could just look up QA D star and it would probably pull it up fairly quickly. But It is it is the common argument of men like Norman Geisler who by the way just in passing He is over.

He is Delinquent on his truth account. It's been over 90 days since I post the three questions to Norman Geisler video and I'd like just like to remind him that he's now 90 days past due on the necessary Responses to those basic questions.

I hope he will get around to doing that someday maybe somebody will keep reminding him of his need to do that, but anyways, Norman Geisler likes to say that the Calvinistic view of God and the Islamic view of God are the same.

Well, they're not the same Just because they have similarities in the sense that Many Muslims and there there's different viewpoints amongst Muslims here and I will confess I'm not even certain how to identify which groups yet because I will hear Muslims talking about free will and I will hear Muslims Echoing the clear statement from the Quran That God ordains the day of a person's death God ordains whether person is going to be in in heaven or in hell.

Gonna make it the jannah or jahanna. It's all determined by by Allah. I mean there's so many statements like that in the Quran that I don't know how you can create any type of perspective of Autonomous free will or anything in in man within Islamic concepts, but be that as it may I'll leave that to them to decide those issues.

The fundamental difference is not the concept of sovereignty over history. But it goes to an even deeper level in regards to God and his his nature and what I mean by that is that the the decree of predestination in Christianity Involves God's interaction with his creation and includes the very incarnation itself.

It is extremely personal. Its focus it's interesting that the Quran says that that Allah did not create men or jinn. But that they should worship him that the purpose of his creation is his worship. Now that sounds a little bit Somewhat like the idea that God's purpose is his glorification.

But I'm not sure that that really actually does end up connecting up the way that it does in in Christian in Christian theology. And by the way, just in passing only men and jinn have free will angels and I have free will in in Islamic theology but men and jinn.

Do.

Which is how they understand why those are the two things that are mentioned that one verse in the Quran. But it really goes again back to the very nature of who Allah is and who Yahweh is and the fact that Allah could never Become incarnate he could not enter into his creation.

There is no personal interaction in that sense. There is a sending down a revelation and things like that, but the the very personal aspect of the relationship that exists between Yahweh and his people Seen so explicitly in Titus chapter 2 where Jesus is Purifying for a people for himself zealous for good deeds.

That is the personal level that is completely lacking in The rather fatalistic concept of predestination that is part of the Islamic system and that's where I see the massive difference existing is that You you you have God's predestining his own personal activity in his own creation.

People think that if God has predestined all actions are going to take place then he could just go out and Go on vacation in the Bahamas and no one would ever know the difference. That's not the case part and parcel of God's Predestination is Providence his own interaction in time.

With his people his personal relationship with people all those other things all the means to the end are a part of the decree as well. And people since they don't see how God could do that Very frequently make God's predestining decree much more cold and distant Than what is revealed in Scripture and that cold and distant decree may well have have some Representation or likeness to an Islamic idea, but it is certainly not what we have In regards to the Christian concept.

So while there is the the the decree of God is no less expansive and is no less full and and and.

Exhaustive.

In the biblical revelation, it is significantly more personal and it's directed toward a personal end And that is the union of a people with God through Jesus Christ, which is completely Absent completely and utterly absent in the Islamic perspective.

Okay. Okay. Thank you very much for your phone call. All right. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's go with our Skype caller to Trevor. Hi Trevor. Hey, dr. White, how's it going?

I'm good. I.

Want to say I appreciate the ministry. It's changed my life and I'm very thankful for all the work that you do.

So thank you for that. That's very encouraging. Thank you.

My question was with the translation of the Hebrew word. I think it's Necham in the Old Testament. Yeah, it's sometimes translated meta Neheyo, which is repent in the New Testament. So I was wondering in the in the Greek Septuagint.

Sometimes it's translated that way. Sometimes it's not and I didn't. I couldn't find information on the other terms that it was translated as where it's usually regret or that kind of thing and I'm just wondering if you had any more information on that kind of thing.

Well.

Not necessarily off the top of my head. I mean if you had a specific text in mind. Possibly we could.

For Samuel 15.

The.

Ham is used three times in that chapter and I think only once which I think first 29, it's meta Neheyo in verse 35 and 11 it's it's another term and I looked up in the Septuagint on e-sword and I couldn't get information on the words.

There. Okay. Yeah most of your most of your texts.

Accordance.

Accordance Bible work stuff like that will will have the ability to allow you to Find out how a term is translated throughout the Septuagint and stuff like that, which is extremely useful, obviously. It would take some time to bring up every possible use but it is I can confirm here at first print I'm sorry for a salmon at 1529 does use a form of that verb metanoe it a in regards to And also the glory of Israel will not lie or have regret for he is not a man that he should have Regret is the ESV's translation of that particular rendering and that is rendering the hum obviously it is a rather rich term and The the Septuagint understanding of it's going to be going to vary across the Septuagint.

It's funny I got some interesting pushback on some of the comments that I made last week when the caller called from Greece and there were there were folks who were actually sort of arguing that that the Greek Septuagint should have preeminence over The Hebrew text they actually confused the Masoretic text the later Masoretic text in the 9th century with the Hebrew text from which obviously the Masoretic text is a derivative and Obviously, which was the basis of the translation of the Greek Septuagint but Aside from the the stories that people told about 70 scholars getting together and they all came out with the same translation.

Which I don't know of anybody who actually believes that. It's very clear that some Sections of the Septuagint are far better as translations than other sections of the subject. It wasn't all done at once.

It was cobbled together over time. Obviously the the Pentateuch seems to have been done by one Group of people but other of other portions of the old of the Old Testament Seemed to have been done at different times and are on different levels of quality.

And and there isn't just one Septuagint either. Obviously, there are different the different streams that we have to deal with in history. So how the Septuagint renders it Is is a problematic thing? Because it depends on what portion of the subject you're looking at and and what stream you're looking at and and then you end up with the Further complication of all right.

Well, what happens when the New Testament writers quote from the Septuagint? They quoted these particular texts and what terms they use and how do they understand the term and all of that is is a major area of.

Study.

In regards to the use of the Septuagint and understanding of those those issues but Nakam itself can have that basic type of idea of changing of one's mind but it certainly doesn't always have that idea and especially when we apply any type of Term that is primarily in our experience used of men to God.

We need to be extremely careful That we do not read into it meanings. That would be that would be inappropriate. For example the idea that that God Decrease his own unhappiness and his own disappointment in his own failure Would create just direct blatant contradiction in the text of Scripture.

I mean The Scriptures say that that God Does whatever he pleases in the heavens and the earth? That's that's right there. It's it's a it's a direct statement. It's not the situation where you have a term that well You know, it might mean this or it might mean that or there's shades of meaning as a semantic domain blah blah blah no, it's it's direct statement and the idea that God would Have that kind of the human kind of repentance that's either from having done something evil or even worse Having done something stupid based upon an ignorance of future events.

Our open theist friends definitely go that direction but Orthodox Christianity has never gone that direction and there's there's good reason for so doing so I do not have a listing in front of me of you know, every Every use of what every single I I do have actually now I think of it in my Lagos library I actually have a book that would give that to me.

But it would take me a little bit of time to pull that up right now to try to find that information live on the.

Air.

Okay, I.

Had a second question that was completely unrelated. But I want to hog all the time if you got other stuff to get to no go ahead.

We've got one other caller. So and and and looks like we're doing fine on time. Okay, it shouldn't take too long.

How far do you think that we should go in defending the historicity of Job seeing as how it's? Poetry or the literary form is poetry and some would maybe use that as saying It's meant to give you a moral story, but not necessarily.

Actually happened, well, I'm not ready to you know, shove somebody out of the kingdom if they if they understand Job in that fashion as long as they see that it is it is scripture, but when it makes specific statements about locations and times and and and events.

You know, I I'm very uncomfortable saying oh well, obviously since it's written in a poetic form that can't possibly have been history because um We look at secular history and we find all sorts of secular history.

It's written in exactly that way. So While we we might be able to look at something like Some of the Greek Greek historians and stuff like that and. And go oh, well, you know, obviously there was exaggeration here or that since it's written in poetry.

That means it's not meant to be taken in a specific way we have to be extremely careful because We have other examples in the Old Testament of Exactly that kind of thing. How many times does the psalmist?

Relate a historical event that we know from first or second Samuel or for the first second Kings. We know what the background is from those historical works, but it is expressed in poetic form in the Psalter if we didn't have those historical books would we automatically just dismiss the the the Even the possibility of the historicity of those events just because the only recording we had of it was in a poetic form.

That's that's I think something it needs to be considered on the part of those that are somehow uncomfortable with with the idea that The the actual events of Job's life took place. I'm well aware of the fact that the the important thing about Job is what he says, okay.

But the problem is when you remove that from the actual historical basis that the book itself presents. Are you not then? Removing it from the context that tells us why? These things took place. Why do the the friends come?

Is is it not important to know something about the backgrounds from which Job's friends would be speaking and that gives us something about the his The history and and what people believed at that particular period of time, you know I'm I'm well aware of the sort of the naturalistic Mindset because quite honestly, that's what I got in seminary a lot of seminary anyways but thankfully I Likewise over the years have sort of sat back and examined that and gone.

You know, why didn't I hear much of the the pushback from that the the other side of that saying? Yeah, but you know, there's there's historical elements to this that would be very useful. Why why do we dismiss those types of things?

So.

How far do we go? Well, like I said, I'm not gonna you know, send somebody off to the the fires If they read it as primarily a poetic Parable, but I'm certainly not going to go there because I don't see any reason to do so.

Okay, that's kind of what I was thinking too. And I also thought at the point that the historical part isn't necessarily in poetic form.

Either yeah, it's not. But but even even if it were I don't know that that that would really make any difference because again off of the Psalter you Have all sorts of historical stuff being expressed in poetry and and no one would since we have the historical books.

No one would think to dismiss that but I think that says something in and of itself.

Okay.

Great. I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks Trevor. Thanks a lot. Thanks your call. God bless. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I wish I could remember I've taught my head I I need to spend some time fact.

That was actually something I was starting to do and then I got distracted is I need to generate a PDF of the bibliography of my Logos library so I can I can have it just click on it and track stuff down that way because There is a text I have that would I think give me? every single Term that's translated if you have in the calm in the Old Testament Hebrew It'll give you every term that is used to translate that in the subject.

So and.

I'm certain actually that that the program sitting in front of me could do that as well. But I I'm a good multitasker, but only to a certain point I can talk and do one other thing but talking and doing two other things.

I ran out of I Ran out of the ability to do that. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One dividing dot line is the Skype address and. Let's go ahead and talk with Tom. How you doing Tom?

Doing good.

Thank you for your ministry, it's been a real blessing to me. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Let me frame my question for you just real quick with him for years a couple of years ago. His daughter asked him why they didn't keep the Mosaic law so he kind of Did some searching on that and in the end they started keeping it five or six years later.

He's denying the inspiration of Paul. Minimizing John's gospel they prefer Matthew. He's denying outright the deity of Christ and They place a real emphasis at this point on obeying and keeping the letter of the law.

I guess you could say that the the Ebionites are still alive and well.

Well, actually, I Have a feeling that that that sounds very much like The fellow that I debated on the Jewish voice broadcast just a few weeks ago. Because that sounds like his position. So I I would not be overly surprised if there wasn't a connection there actually.

Yeah, Joseph good was his name.

Okay, I'll ask him my basic question then is so deep with all this. Where should I start? Where should I where should my interaction with them be? Should I focus on the deity of Christ for instance or or Paul's writings?

Well, it.

Unfortunately, it seems like in this situation In that type of a context where you have someone who has gone that far There's there's obviously some very foundational and fundamental problems involved in the person's view of Scripture the fulfillment of Scripture in the New Testament and once they start creating Differences of authority in scriptural text where well, I I like Matthew and I'm I can pretty much guarantee you they probably think Matthew is originally written in Hebrew and Are into well the original Hebrew here would have been blah blah blah blah as if anyone actually knows that.

No one's ever seen a Hebrew Matthew and you can You can guess you can guesstimate. It's it's similar to When the Roman Catholics say well the original Aramaic and Matthew 16 would have been you don't know that.

You just don't know that you can you can pretend, you know that till the cows come home, but you don't know that any more than we know the order in which the Gospels were written or any any of the rest of stuff that people assume that they know very very well, but it really is.

You know when you have someone who said they once believed one thing and now they have moved that far out. There's almost always some reason why all that took place some disappointment with the church some Disillusionment some something to where this has become their means of Excusing their their leaving and abandoning the commitments that they had made in those particular contexts obviously the issue here is Who Christ is and what the gospel is because now you're talking about someone who has a false Jesus and a false gospel and It would seem at least logically that dealing with who Jesus is is prior logically to anything else because you you can't really establish a Gospel of grace if you don't have the right Jesus who is actually providing the proper Perpetuatory sacrifice and is able to save the uttermost those who draw nigh unto God by him so Logically, it would seem that the establishment of the deity of Christ and so the first thing to ask is the same question that Michael Brown and I asked of Joseph good and Anthony buzzard and and that is well if if you don't believe in the deity of Christ Then do you believe Jesus pre-existed his birth in Bethlehem?

Right, which they don't well, then they're they're really in a tough spot because at least the Jehovah's Witnesses Can get around all the pre-existence passages by saying well, yeah, he was the spirit creature created by Jehovah blah blah when you don't when you when you deny the Pre-existence of Christ you're up against so much material That it's it's just overwhelming.

I think you'll find The the programs when they air between November 1st and November 14th on The Jewish voice broadcast which is on satellite. It's on television. That's on the website. I imagine you'll be able to purchase it.

You'll be able I think you'll find that to be extremely helpful along those lines because we really did Hit a lot of the primary texts that you need to deal with in regards to the demonstration of the pre-existence of Christ and Identification of Christ as Yahweh.

It's and they did not have much in a way of response. They really didn't So that's gonna be that's be rather useful. So I would I would definitely go there But you know, I would also press them on the very issues that Paul pressed against the Judaizers in Galatia and This whole this whole idea of law-keeping and and righteousness.

I mean if they're really honestly saying that it is it is their Keeping of the law That is having anything whatsoever to do with their relationship before God then I would I would press them very very strongly on that and and and really, you know, obviously someone who Was once a part of the church I mean were they part of a of a good church or were they just sort of nominal or what?

They've actually they had a tendency of skipping around churches. So they've been almost everywhere. You can.

And then doesn't surprise me church church hoppers are are very rarely rooted and grounded believers and so that that sort of closes down one of the one of the questions that I would ask and that is someone was actually once a a Consistent member of a solid church and when I mean a solid church church that had a statement of faith.

You knew what they believed. You knew it was being preached to the pulpit and you knew that if someone was actually a member of that church that they once Actually said this is what I believe. Anybody who's a member of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church before they become a member?

They have to read our Constitution read this the London Bapst Confession of 1689 meet with the elders. We asked them. Is there anything in the confession of faith and the Constitution? It bothers you that that you have you take exception to anything you want to ask us questions about.

And so when that person stands before the congregation, they're giving a testimony. I've read these documents I agree with these documents. This is where I stand. And so if someone went out from us. You could at least then approach them and say you once said that this was the very essence of your life that this was your hope in Jesus Christ and him alone and now you're you're believing that that your actions.

You don't didn't don't you remember what Paul said the if you're gonna go down that road the standard is Absolute perfection. There is no grace he who lives by these sayings. That that's what you have to do there.

You that you can't walk down the road of obedience and grace obedience to law so as to gain something good and great you can't get very far down those two roads because they go opposite directions from one another and That's what I would be asking of them.

But if they were just sort of floating around I can't say hey you once made a clear Profession that this is what you believed. So, you know, you really can't necessarily go that that direction with these folks, but you know other folks.

That's where I would focus on. But yeah, I think that the deity of Christ is where you're gonna need to need to go and Clearly the many passages that describe his eternal pre-existence his identification as Yahweh John 1 Philippians chapter 2.

Use of I am all these things and find out what what excuses they're gonna use. Are they gonna use the well He was in the mind of God as a plan excuse. Are they gonna use it? Well, he's the vice-gerent the the representative of Yahweh and that's why he can be you know.

It depends that I'll depend on which group they've been influenced by which sort of Non non deity-believing Messianic Jewish group they're they're reading their website or whatever else it is.

Okay, so what do you recommend? Watching the Anthony buzzard debate with you all and with them. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you bet sure.

Some other time and then witness to them. Oh, yeah. Well, well either one. I certainly would let them know about it. I'd watch it myself and I've watched it with them. I mean, I'm very confident about what the.

What the outcome was? And so I think the issues were very clear and I think Michael and I Answered all the questions they had for us and I think it was just obvious there many times. They could not answer in a meaningful way the questions we had for them.

So yeah, and my understanding is the DVDs going to be available from from Jewish voice and and It's gonna be on there on their website. And so yeah, I would if they'd be willing to do so and Obviously if they have been in any way shape or form influenced by either of those two gentlemen, that'll help even more.

Yeah, so so if you mentioned Joseph good to them go. Oh, yeah, we read his stuff all the time as I got. Have you over for some cheeseburgers and we'll watch the Jewish voice broadcast together and yeah, well, maybe not cheeseburgers.

Make sure it's kosher. How's that? That's right, that's right.

Well, thank you so much for your answer that helped narrow it down for me a lot. Okay. All right. Thanks Tom. Take care.

All right. God bless. Whether It's 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 dividing dot line. Now we'll go ahead and take take a break and then come back. Maybe with your phone calls or maybe not.

We'll see we'll be right back. James White is a series of personal letters written to a fictional Mormon missionary Examining the teaching and theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

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Thank you.

Well Rich is having a less than spectacular technical day evidently. Next time I see you staring at those screens over there looking like hmm I wonder what this does. I can go out there and slap your fingers with a ruler because it no longer wishes.