Spiritual Warfare with Jim Osman | Rapp Report Weekly 0007 | Andrew Rappaport | SFE | Striving for Eternity

When I came out of the charismatic movement, I realized that all this talk of spiritual warfare is a distraction. This talk of spiritual warfare to me Seemed like a huge distraction because we would spend hours and hours and hours in prayer Binding Satan stepping on his head doing all this stuff and I come to realize Like we're not doing any of that.

First off. I mean, we're we're not In that position where we could do that scripture doesn't give us that authority. God has that authority. And I realized like what a waste. I mean If you want to say who this is a benefit to Satan that you we would spend hours and hours of wasted.

Time.

Because that's really what he.

It's to his advantage to keep us misguided as to what real spiritual warfare is because then we're not waging it. Yeah.

Welcome to the rap report with Andrew rap report where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of striving for eternity. More content or to request a speaker or seminar for your church go to striving for eternity.

Okay. Today we are going to be having an interview with a special guest a friend of mine pastor Jim Osmond and He's written a couple books and we're gonna be discussing those books. We're gonna be having a little bit of fun.

You're gonna see that Jim and I get along very well. We both like to joke around we'd like to be serious about serious topics and I think this will be a very entertaining and yet very Informative podcast for you.

You're gonna want to make sure you listen to the whole thing and enjoy.

Striving for eternity is a Christ centered ministry focused on equipping people for eternity and they provide speakers and seminars that come to your church with expertise in theology hermeneutics world religions creation science evangelism presuppositional apologetics church history and expertise and sexual abuse in the church.

For details on their seminars and to request a speaker for your Church go to striving for eternity org striving to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

Okay, we are back with a guest and this is someone I've gotten to know recently and His name is Jim Osmond. He is a pastor up in, Idaho. That is the land of the free where they are free to carry guns keeps trying to get me to move there and Because he says I could have freedom there I live in New Jersey.

They don't allow me to look at pictures of guns that's that could probably get me in jail here, but pastor Jim welcome.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on the program.

So you've written three books that you sent me. You sent me all three of them and I've diligently read every one of them.

Since our last conversation two hours ago when you told me you hadn't read any of them. Yeah. Well, I read the I read the covers.

I read the covers. Okay. Okay. Yeah, you know, I I mean I I you know I had I had this before that we started. I had to take them off the shelf on the nonfiction section right next to the Left behind where I leave all my trashy novels.

No.

None of these are novel. Well, you got one on the stairway to heaven. That's a song. Isn't it? That's not a novel. No, that's an assessment of three other novels three other fictional works.

So, so let's let's start with. Let's start with the the first one actually. Which one is the first one you wrote.

Which one do you want to start with?

Well, I was gonna start with the selling the stairway to heaven which you say is the second one. That's the second one.

I get it. Yeah, try again. No, I'm sticking with that one. Let's start with that one.

For folks who don't know Pastor Jim so so actually let's let's talk the the first time that we well the first my first Reaction with you or interaction with you I should say was giving you a call and I think I think Justin Peters wanted me to call you and I I went to I got your voicemail and I went to leave you a message and I was laughing so hard at your Voicemail that I could not even leave message almost and and I just knew from the voicemail you and I were gonna hit it off.

You should probably record it and paste it into this episode someplace. I I think that I'm gonna have to.

But that was one of the funniest thing. So I left you a message. You called me back a week. We ended up meeting for the first time at Shepherds conference. Yeah this year this year and and I think we immediately hit it off.

And had a great time. Yeah, and you know really just you know I think this is one of the things that I think Christ does with with his children is there's a kindred spirit where You can meet someone for the first time and just love being around one another.

Yeah, and yeah.

There's a brother brotherhood that exists there. That's beautiful.

Yeah, it's not as beautiful as New Jersey, I'm sure but.

Now.

For folks, okay, he wants me to move to Idaho. He says it's it's a beautiful place. I think of it as a place of winter and snow. It's it's North. It's it's gotta be.

So well only it's not all winter and snow. We only have really nine months of winter and three months of bad sledding. It's beautiful up here. This is you're familiar with Boise because you have a friend down in Boise, right?

That's right. Yeah, I mean the thing I'm familiar with Boise Boise is the armpit of the state of Idaho. We don't even consider that Idaho down there. And like I said to you in an email if I owned Boise and hell I would rent out Boise and live in hell.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't move down there either, but you've never been up here. You will be someday, but you haven't been up here yet.

This is beautiful. Yeah. Well, I am coming up your way. So so, you know, I've been I've been to Idaho. One things I do love about Idaho. No joke.

I.

Shared this with you. I get to Idaho. Into Boise and my buddy Nathan picks me up. The first thing he does He's shake my hand and welcome me to Idaho. Second thing he does is hand me a glock. I love Idaho for that reason.

That's a good reason to love Idaho. Yeah, so.

Selling the stairway to heaven. Let's talk about it. Um, so there's been a number of people in the prosperity gospel and Their ilk that have made many claims that they have been to heaven. We have Don Piper in his 90 minutes of heaven.

We've you know the the boy. Well, actually a couple boys, but Colton Burwell. Yeah, we we have Bippo we have the other one that I don't think is in your book.

Malarkey. Alex malarkey who I heard I think he's suing the publisher. Yeah Send you genuinely saved and was recently baptized. In fact our mutual friend Justin Peters has reached out to the malarkey family and their pastor of that church and Has some contact with him.

So that's been a positive thing. And of course he he renounces the entire trip to heaven that says it never happened in his dad. It was just a charlatan taking advantage of the kid in a story for financial gain, yeah, and.

Yeah, I mean we could get into that story too because I mean I think I know Phil Johnson Played a role in that. Justin Peters played a role in that I think even Jordan Hall in in exposing that and the mother reached out.

I mean, I remember when we were in, Ohio. Well, Phil Johnson, he was he was trying to get to together with. I think it's Barbara malarkey is the mother. Yeah, and I'm going from memory.

But yeah.

They had can't reached out and contacted and said this story was fake and and they couldn't get anyone to to listen to them. Because they were making too much money off of that book. Mm-hmm. This is a moneymaker.

Why it is and it has been a huge moneymaker for both Don Piper and and the burpo family as well.

Yeah, you know I read Don Piper's was 90 minutes in heaven. I was pastoring at the time. Someone in the church had gotten a hold of the book. I guess I think it was a New York Times bestseller asked me what I thought about it.

You know, I read that book. I didn't the the thing I walked away at that book was I've said that if someone goes to heaven They're gonna be concerned with the gospel. They're good. They're gonna come back and the gospel is gonna be the most important thing.

He he talked about the his trip to heaven in just I think the first chapter the the rest of the book was his life after and.

Yeah, it was his recovery his recovery. From the accident. From the accident and really I here was the thing I walked with.

He didn't seem to have a concern for people with Where they spend eternity as much as he was with people that were in that machine that contraption that he had to deal with To learn to walk again and the pain of it and reaching out to people like that and it wasn't so much reaching out to them with the gospel, but reaching out with them to To know they can they can get through it like he.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah Don Piper's That that's the book is really not about heaven at all. It's kind of a something of a misleading title because I think it's only I don't know 15 or 20 pages that really deal with his supposed a trip to heaven and the rest of the book deals with suffering and and how he came back to tell his story and how people have been encouraged by his story and Why he tells the story and where he tells the story and all the experiences about his story and a story about his story.

That's that's what the whole book is about really and I said in the I said in my review of the book Which is in that in that book? They're selling the stairway to heaven. I made the statement that had had Don Piper come back and written a book about persevering through suffering or what he learned about God in his suffering or the purpose the purpose of sanctification or the goal of sanctification and suffering or Trying to be an encouragement to people who have faced similar physical difficulties.

As he had he wouldn't have sold. Probably not even one-tenth as many copies, but the book would have been immensely more profitable. Okay, just left out all of the reports about heaven so you just self contradictory nonsense.

Sorry, but nailed the issue didn't you? I mean, it's it's about the fact that we live in a culture with with social media and all this where people do clickbait. Say things just to get people to click or to read the book or something like that.

But but after he wrote that book his life Changed in the speaking circuit and all of that and I but people who follow him or have looked at his life and all it it's clearly he's shown that he has changed the Theology over time as he's been being more with people in the word of faith movement and things like that.

Yeah, he started out solidly in the evangelical camp as a Baptist pastor and but once you begin to Jettison scripture as the sole and only source of Information about God and the Christian life and heaven in the afterlife and you begin to turn to experience which is essentially what his book is then of course, you're you're set adrift on a sea of uncertainty and and Muddled theology that can just bend and shape whichever way you want it to go.

It doesn't surprise me that he has found a kin a kindred spirit amongst people in the word of faith movement because There's many like Jesse Duplantis and others who have made claims about visiting heaven quite frequently and having Jesus come and visiting them and being Transported to heaven just like Paul was and having conversations with Jesus, etc.

So that's very common in word faith circles but it's not as common that that type of a claim is not as common among evangelical pastors and and in Evangelicalism or what we would call more conservative or Orthodox Christianity apart from word of faith movement type theology Don Piper has gone a long ways to making such claims more commonplace and of course the Burt post followed it up with heaven is for real and And then I critique both of those books in in that book that you're talking about, you know, you mentioned Jesse Duplantis.

I remember Matt slick from calm org. Justin Peters our mutual friend from Justin Peters org, that's a very original name and I Put but Justin Peters and Matt slick and I were we're at a conference speaking together.

Justin was gonna be speaking at that and that Sunday morning Matt was speaking him at my church and Justin was speaking at another church. He was gonna be speaking that evening and Matt and I went over to listen to Justin speak and it was really funny because Justin told us an account from Jesse Duplantis and Matt's sitting there listening to it and Matt turned to me and goes.

He just shocked me. He wasn't I thought I've heard everything but Justin Peters just shocked me. I don't get shocked easy and he was telling me the account of you know where Jesse Duplantis went to his office one day and All of a sudden I don't remember the account all the event the details of it.

And if you get clouds without water to you, it's it's probably in there. But he was telling about the this account where Jesse Duplantis got to his office he was all ready to go to work and and all of a sudden God was needing his help and so he took like a cable car or something up to heaven and He's sitting in heaven and and God was just depressed and he just needed Jesse Duplantis there by his side and he was just oh it was a hard day and and Jesse just decided he would just sit there and pray and and be with God and and you know Stay there all day and and God's just stay with me for the day and and around lunchtime.

He said Jesse, you know what you can go home. I feel a lot better now, and he took his cable car home and Matt and I were just like pulling our hair out like people believe this.

Yeah, and and evangelical Christians or or conservative guys like that are more lean toward to our camp. They would instantly reject that and yet Some of these same people that would think that Jesse Duplantis is a clown will believe Don Piper and they'll believe Colton Burpo and they'll buy the books and they will pass it'll circulate them around they will share them with their friends and Embrace those stories as well.

Here's the proof of heaven then and because it bond on Piper's the Baptist and yet They're making essentially the exact same mistake. One of the points I make in my book is on what basis do you reject one account and embrace the other?

So tell me what is the danger in? In in this what is the danger in these accounts? We could sit there and look at the Word of Faith folks and say well their theology is is really off the rockers anyway.

But when we have people like Don Piper What's the danger of these? Accounts. What we can't tell. I mean you and I can't exegete their experience and that's what this is. It's an experience. We can compare it to Scripture.

Like I said, someone that goes to heaven is gonna come back and they're not they're gonna be different. They're gonna have a focus on the gospel. It with this being the case. What is the danger with it with a Don Piper writing a book like this?

I think one of the primary dangers is The way in which an embrace of such stories can end up drawing people away from the sufficiency of Scripture. And what I mean by that is is in Piper's book. He says that one of the reasons that he's convinced that God allowed him to go to heaven Was so that he could come back and tell others that heaven is for real to borrow the title of another book.

That's the reason that that God allowed him to have that experience so he could come back and and tell other people about heaven. So that they their faith could be straightened strengthened and he has numerous anecdotal stories about how he will Speak in a church on on his story and share his testimony and then afterwards people will come up and say to him.

You know I've been a Christian since I was a young child and I've always doubted whether or not heaven is for real but now you've experienced this and come back and told me about it and now my faith is strengthened and I'm so encouraged by this and And he'll say see how see how good this is that this person has been encouraged by that.

Well, I read that account and I say Was Scripture not enough? You've had the Word of God you have the testimony of Jesus and the Apostles right there in front of you in written form. But that wasn't enough to strengthen your faith.

That wasn't the testimony of Jesus Christ was not enough to convince you that heaven is real. The testimony of Don Piper was necessary and that's the subtle allure of such stories that they that they purport to Serve to strengthen our faith.

And in fact, all they do is Base our faith not upon Scripture. But upon the experience of somebody who says that they went to heaven and came back. That I think is the most subtle and most insidious danger of all in the accounts themselves.

There's a secondary one Andrew and I'd add this one a secondary danger I think is that it seeks that they end up undermining really what Scripture says about heaven itself because there are contrary there are things in both Burpo's account and Don Piper's account that contradict what Scripture reveals about heaven.

Burpo says that the Holy Spirit appeared as a as a blue fog or a blue cloud that Jesus has a multicolored horse. You know There are claims that Piper makes about People and their age in heaven and things that they say in heaven and if you read his book He didn't spend 90 minutes in heaven.

He says he spent 90 minutes outside the gates of heaven. So it wasn't even 90 minutes in heaven. He lingered around the outside of the gates and met with his uncle or whoever it was. Yeah, he was never got into heaven and he never saw Jesus or God the Father.

No never saw Jesus never saw God the Father he says he saw it later on in a Speaking engagement in I think a Chinese Church a few years after the book. He says he saw God's throne exalted in the glory of it from a distance.

But if you could spend 90 minutes Outside the gates of heaven and you never see the face of Jesus. It's you didn't spend 90 minutes in heaven and you didn't go to the real heaven. Because the first thing we you and I are gonna see when we die is the face of Jesus.

We will be instantly in the glory of God in our perfected and sanctified state and we will see Christ and be with him. That's what Paul says to depart and do the Christ is far better. So the very testimony of men like Burpo and Piper.

It ends up contradicting the clear testimony of Scripture and then then you're left asking well if I am if I believe that Piper and Burpo had these Experiences and I believe that these experiences are real and then they contradict Scripture.

Who do I believe Scripture or their experience?

Yeah, but in this is the main issue, isn't it that we have a Christianity that is following after experience and not Scripture.

Yeah.

Most most Christians are so ignorant of what their Bible teaches about heaven that that they would gladly go on onto that book and.

I think you bring up a very important point this it is Ultimately attack on the sufficiency of Scripture that we say we need some experience. We need to hear someone else's account to believe what the Word of God says.

It's not enough right. Scripture should be enough. And even if everything that every person on the face of the planet said contradicted Scripture I would I would still blow a Scripture because Scripture is sufficient.

Even at the testimony of everybody else contradicted it. And yet you have millions of Christians apparently whose whose faith is so wobbly and so flaky. That books like 90 minutes in heaven and heaven is for real end up Encouraging them in their faith, which is is just so so misguided.

What is it for you?

I know you. You've written a couple of books right. You deal with the prosperity gospel. What is it for you that you see. Is such a danger and a threat in that?

Movement. The prosperity gospel. Yeah. Yeah. Well the my book the prosperity of the wicked. Now You're talking about my third book. The book on the prosperity of the wicked is actually a study of Psalm 73.

Now see if you Had read the book you would know this.

But I didn't ask about the book. You're trying you're trying to turn it, but I'm staying on the topic. See, I understand what you're trying to do. See I see. See. The fact that you see that's a fallacy right there.

Because we could we could play our game. Hold on we we have that. It's time for name.

That fallacy.

Okay, and I can name that fallacy. That is a fallacy of equivocation a fallacy of equivocation. What pastor jim just did there for you folks is he took the word prosperity? In the way that I used it and then turned it into the fact that he used that same Word as a title of his other book and said, oh, that's what you're talking about.

But in fact, I wasn't talking anything about that. That's called a fallacy of equivocation where you take one term and use it two different ways. So I was using it in the term of what we were talking about with the context back to prosperity gospel movement that is.

We end up seeing the extreme of the heavenly experiences, but that's okay. He wanted to try to get a dig in and you all are eyewitnesses to that. And it gave us a chance to play name that fallacy real quick.

So go ahead now and answer the question.

What was the question now that you've totally got us off track by equivocating on the word prosperity? Well, it begs the question right? Yeah, it begs the question.

Yeah, you want to explain the difference with that?

Um.

So so what do you see as a danger? With the prosperity gospel. Why is it such a threat?

Well, I it's the threat because it's a different gospel and it goes. It appeals to the weak. It appeals to the poor. It appeals to the financially downtrodden. Where financial charlatans, uh use the gospel and the name of christ for their own fiscal gain.

And so I think the danger of it. I know the danger of it is. Just that it is a complete and utter perversion of the gospel that leads people, uh into greed and covetousness. Uh, which is a form of idolatry and which is idolatry.

And it leads them away from the true jesus and the true god and into eternal damnation. Somebody who believes the gospel prosperity gospel cannot and will not be saved unless they repent and believe the true gospel.

That that's I think the essential is the essential. And the worst error and danger of it. I think that.

Our friend justin peters, you know says it kind of clear right? It's a threat to the truth. He's writing a book on it.

I didn't.

Yeah, he's yeah, he should write a book on it. Finally. He's he is. Good good. Keep him writing.

But but.

The thing is he talks about that's a real threat to the church because it masquerades as christianity.

Yeah in some parts of the world. It's the only christianity that That they see in america. They don't see. They don't see the john mccarthur shepherd's conference type of christianity. They don't see the reform movement.

They don't see the the centrality of the gospel in the the small churches and the little guys plowing it out with Little congregations faithfully serving the true gospel and witnessing that all they see is what's piped into their airwaves by tbn.

And uh, and those christian radio stations that networks like that run. That's the only christianity they see. And I I have to wonder You know as all of this growth that we're seeing in some of these foreign countries Is it really the true biblical christianity or is it an embrace of the prosperity gospel?

You know from what I hear a lot of it's the embrace of the prosperity gospel.

Well, it is it is I. I had a pastor who contacted me. He out in ohio. He had. We have a class on the striving fraternity academy. On how to interpret the bible is called the school biblical harmonetics.

And in those 20 lessons, we teach people how to understand and interpret scripture. Very easy for anyone to understand. There was a pastor in ohio who had someone knock on his door. You know come in the office and this gentleman introduced himself.

He was a missionary from africa to america. Now that right there should maybe shock some people that africans are sending missionaries to america.

Okay, but.

He's coming in With a prosperity gospel. And he he wanted to get to know some of the local pastors because he was churching planting a church in the area. And this pastor said hey, let's why don't we get together for lunch.

And he realized this guy had a wrong theology. He wanted to get together and start discipling him. And he actually suggested he called me because he said what I would like to do is I want to know if I can get A copy of the syllabus for your class and if I can have permission To use your syllabus And teach through it even though it's not you teaching it through the web.

But me teaching it because he he had taken the class and got the syllabus and found it helpful. And I said sure if you go for it, you know, I told him we won't even charge you I'll send you a free copy of the syllabus for this guy and he he started working with this guy teaching him through his syllabus.

This guy had.

Within weeks a much bigger church than the pastor who's been there for years. But and that's in the prosperity gospel it's appealing to the lost and so here he is and he's he's got this growing church plant and He's meeting with this pastor every week for lunch and they're going through a study and it started to change his sermons.

And the folks in the church that were the leadership that were sent from africa with him Started noticing a difference in the sermons and started to challenge him. And in that challenge they ended up saying That you know, this is this is not good for the movement what you're teaching and he actually told this pastor from ohio and the Guy had called me back to give me the update.

And because I asked him to give me an update and the update he gave me was he said that this guy Was basically given a choice from the missions board in africa that he either had to give up this teaching that he was Doing of reading the bible and interpreting it and exegeting it.

He had to give that up or he had and or he had to return to africa and he chose To give up the right dividing of the word of god to stay here in america and plant a church. And so they stopped meeting.

Wow. This is the only christianity he knew. One of the things that he had told this pastor was That he didn't know he went as they're sitting there and studying the the biblical interpretation. He said I didn't know there was any other way I never learned this.

He said I didn't understand that there was any other way To interpret scripture or to study the bible than the way we were told to use our experience.

Wow, that's sad. That's probably very typical of uh, Of that prosperity gospel and uh, and the spread of it in other parts of the world.

Yeah, yeah in africa it is growing. But I don't think it's leading people to heaven. Unfortunately, it's it's leading a lot of people to to giving up their wealth.

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You know, I when I interviewed, um, justin peters. We did a podcast on catholic Charismaticism and i'll have to hear that again. Um and so. Um that was that was done on a different network and we're gonna have to we'll try to maybe put that out one day.

Again on on this one, but you know what? We talked about the video that we had linked where there's a guy in africa and Preachers preaching. This guy comes up and he's being what they call slain in the spirit.

He falls on the ground. He's jumping all around and all this and all of a sudden his phone rings and it's amazing. He's jumping all around and he reaches in pulls out the phone. He's like. He answers the phone.

He just stops shaking. The guy preaching just stops answer the phone. What. Ma. And he's yelling at his mother ma i'm at church ma. Uh, you know i'm a i'll call you later. And he hangs up puts his phone back in his pocket.

And then just immediately goes back to gyrating and the preacher goes right back to the preaching. It was all planned. It was like there none of it was was true emotion.

No Fallen act. Yeah.

Okay, so you want to talk about your book the prosperity of the wicked. Obviously. Since I was going to talk about truth or territory, but you you clearly want to talk about this.

So so go ahead. Only because you brought it up. Only because you brought it up. Yeah, the third. The third book I wrote was uh, the prosperity of the wicked a study of psalm 73 and so it deals with. Uh, It's more of an exegetical.

Expository.

Study of the of psalm 73 that kind of deals with asap struggle over the prosperity of the wicked. Which I think is something that joe wrestled with and other old testament prophets. Why is it that the people of god?

If they have god's favor, why is it that they never seem to have the bulk of god's blessings in this world? Why is it that the wicked always seem to? To get the blessings of god in this world and so asap struggles with that in psalm 73 in the beginning He says his his feet almost slipped.

He almost stumbled Um off into the abyss of apostasy because of this struggle. He saw the prosperity of the wicked. He saw the unrighteous and the ungodly with all this world's goods. They they live in ease they die in ease He says and um, this was a cause of great concern to him.

And angst and then in the middle of the psalm It kind of takes a turn about halfway through the psalm Asap steps as he steps into the sanctuary of god and he says then I perceived their end and then he goes on to explain In that psalm how the prosperity that god gives the wicked is not a reward to them.

It's not a blessing to them. It is actually a preparation for their judgment. And it's a whole different view of prosperity than we are taught to Taught to have in in western america and in our culture.

It is a view of prosperity that says that god is god will sometimes raise up men in order that their fall may be even more severe and more of a judgment because of their wickedness and we tend to look at at the prosperity of beyonce and Bill gates and jeff bezos and all these people who have so much money and they use it for the most ungodly and wicked of Causes and then we think why is it that they have that money in their christian ministries like mine and yours that?

Might struggle from month to month why is that the case and. And yet what psalm 73 reveals is that that is the case because in those instances God is using the prosperity not as a blessing but as a judgment.

And um, and that's something we have to keep in mind that that god is giving bill gates steve jobs this money. So that when he takes it away when they suffer eternal loss. Uh that loss will be irreparable it will be severe and it will be a just punishment.

The bigger they are the harder they fall, you know. The higher they get lifted up the farther it is until they come crashing down. And um that view of prosperity says that that prosperity god's given to the wicked is in fact a judgment upon them and so that's what dot psalm 73 deals with.

And and then at the end of the psalm a staff says I I've come to understand that god is my good. He he is the good to me. Uh, the the the prosperity is not good. The riches are not the good. It is my god and nearness to god, which is a good for me.