Spiritual Warfare with Jim Osman | Rapp Report Weekly 0007 | Andrew Rappaport | SFE | Striving for Eternity

When I came out of the charismatic movement, I realized that all this talk of spiritual warfare is a distraction this talk of spiritual warfare to me

Seemed like a huge distraction because we would spend hours and hours and hours in prayer

Binding Satan stepping on his head doing all this stuff and I come to realize

Like we're not doing any of that first off. I mean, we're we're not In that position where we could do that scripture doesn't give us that authority.

God has that authority and I realized like what a waste. I mean

If you want to say who this is a benefit to Satan that you we would spend hours and hours of wasted time

Because that's really what he It's to his advantage to keep us misguided as to what real spiritual warfare is because then we're not waging it.

Yeah Welcome to the rap report with Andrew rap report where we provide biblical interpretations and applications

This is a ministry of striving for eternity More content or to request a speaker or seminar for your church.

Go to striving for eternity .org Okay. Today we are going to be having an interview with a special guest a friend of mine pastor

Jim Osmond and He's written a couple books and we're gonna be discussing those books.

We're gonna be having a little bit of fun You're gonna see that Jim and I get along very well. We both like to joke around we like to be serious about serious topics and I think this will be a very entertaining and yet very

Informative podcast for you. You're gonna want to make sure you listen to the whole thing and enjoy

Striving for eternity is a Christ centered ministry focused on equipping people for eternity and they provide speakers and seminars that come to your church with expertise in theology hermeneutics world religions creation science evangelism presuppositional apologetics church history and expertise and sexual abuse in the church for details on their seminars and to request a speaker for your

Church go to striving for eternity .org Striving to make today an eternal day for the glory of God okay, we are back with a guest and This is someone

I've gotten to know recently and his name is Jim Osmond He is a pastor up in Idaho That is the land of the free where they are free to carry guns keeps trying to get me to move there and Because he says

I could have freedom there I live in New Jersey They they don't allow me to look at pictures of guns. That's that could probably get me in jail here, but pastor

Jim Welcome Thank you. Thanks for having me on the program So you've written three books that you sent me you sent me all three of them and I've diligently read every one of them

But since our last conversation two hours ago when you told me you hadn't read any of them Yeah, well, I read the I read the covers.

I read the covers. Okay, okay Yeah, you know, I I mean I I you know I have I had this before that we started

I had to take them off the shelf on the nonfiction section right next to left Behind where I leave all my trashy novels.

No None of these are novel Well, you got one on the stairway to heaven.

That's a song isn't it? That's not a novel. No, that's an assessment of three other novels three other fictional works

So, so let's let's start with Let's start with the the first one actually which one is the first one you wrote.

Oh, which one do you want to start with? Well, I was gonna start with the selling the stairway to heaven, which you say is the second one.

That's the second one I get it. Yeah, try again. No, I'm sticking with that one. Let's start with that one

For folks who don't know pastor Jim so so actually let's let's talk the the first two books

That we well the first my first reaction with you or interaction with you. I should say was giving you a call and I think

I think Justin Peters wanted me to call you and I I went to I got your voicemail and I went to leave you a message and I was laughing so hard at your

Voicemail that I could not even leave message almost and and I just knew from the voicemail you and I were gonna hit it off You should probably record it and paste it into this episode someplace

I I think that I'm gonna have to But that was one of the funniest thing.

So I left you a message You called me back a week. We ended up meeting for the first time at Shepherds conference

Yeah this year this year and and I think we immediately hit it off And had a great time

Yeah, and you know really just you know I think this is one of the things that I think

Christ does with with his children is there's a kindred spirit where You can meet someone for the first time and just love being around one another.

Yeah, and yeah There's a brother brotherhood that exists there. That's beautiful yeah, it's not as beautiful as New Jersey, I'm sure but Now For folks, okay, he wants me to move to Idaho.

He says it's it's a beautiful place I I think of it as a place of Winter and snow it's it's

North. It's it's got to be So well only it's not all winter and snow.

We only have really nine months of winter and three months of bad sledding It's beautiful up here this is you're familiar with Boise because you have a friend down in Boise, right?

That's right. Yeah, I mean the thing I'm familiar with Boise Boise is the armpit of the state of Idaho We don't even consider that Idaho down there

And like I said to you in an email if I owned Boise and hell I would rent out

Boise and live in hell I wouldn't I wouldn't move down there either, but you've never been up here. You will be someday, but you haven't been up here yet This is beautiful.

Yeah. Well, I am coming up your way So so, you know, I've been I've been to Idaho one things

I do love about Idaho. No joke I Shared this with you. I get to Idaho Into Boise and my buddy

Nathan picks me up. The first thing he does He's shake my hand and welcome me to Idaho. Second thing he does is hand me a glock.

I love Idaho for that reason That's a good reason to love Idaho. Yeah, so Selling the stairway to heaven.

Let's talk about it. Um, so there's been a number of people in the prosperity gospel and Their ilk that have made many claims that they have been to heaven

We have Don Piper in his 90 minutes of heaven We've you know the boy

Well, actually a couple boys, but Colton Burwell. Yeah, we we have Bippo we have the other one that I don't think is in your book

Malarkey Alex malarkey who I heard I think he's suing the publisher. Yeah Send you genuinely saved and was recently baptized

In fact, our mutual friend Justin Peters has reached out to the malarkey family and their pastor of that church and has some contact with him

So that's been a positive thing And of course he he renounces the entire trip to heaven that says it never happened in his dad

It was just a charlatan taking advantage of the kid and his story for financial gain, yeah, and Yeah, I mean we could get into that story too because I mean

I think I know Phil Johnson Played a role in that Justin Peters played a role in that I think even

Jordan Hall in in exposing that and the mother reached out. I mean, I remember when we were in,

Ohio Well, Phil Johnson, he was he was trying to get to together with I think it's

Barbara malarkey is the mother Yeah, and I'm going from memory But yeah

They had can't reached out and contacted and said this story was fake and they couldn't get anyone to to listen to them

Because they were making too much money off of that book Mm -hmm. This is a moneymaker

Why it is and it has been a huge moneymaker for both Don Piper and and the Burpo family as well

You know, I read Don Piper's was 90 minutes in heaven I was pastoring at the time someone in the church had gotten a hold of the book

I guess I think it was a New York Times bestseller asked me what I thought about it. You know, I read that book

I didn't the the thing I walked away at that book was I've said that if someone goes to heaven

They're gonna be concerned with the gospel They're good. They're gonna come back and the gospel is gonna be the most important thing.

He he talked about the his trip to heaven in just I think the first chapter the the rest of the book was his life after and Yeah, it was his recovery his recovery from the accident from the accident and really

I here was the thing I walked with He didn't seem to have a concern for people with Where they spend eternity as much as he was with people that were in that machine that contraption that he had to deal with To learn to walk again and the pain of it and reaching out to people like that and it wasn't so much reaching out to them with the gospel, but reaching out with them to To know they can they can get through it like he yeah

Yeah, yeah Don Piper's That that's the book is really not about heaven at all It's kind of a something of a misleading title because I think it's only

I don't know 15 or 20 pages that really deal with his supposed a trip to heaven and the rest of the book deals with suffering and and how he came back to tell his story and how people have been encouraged by his story and Why he tells the story and where he tells the story and all the experiences about his story and a story about his story

That's that's what the whole book is about really and I said in the I said in my review of the book Which is in that in that book?

They're selling the stairway to heaven. I made the statement that had had Don Piper come back and written a book about persevering through suffering or what he learned about God in his suffering or the purpose the purpose of sanctification or the goal of sanctification and suffering or Trying to be an encouragement to people who have faced similar physical difficulties as he had he wouldn't have sold

Probably not even one -tenth as many copies, but the book would have been immensely more profitable Okay, just left out all of the reports about heaven so you just self -contradictory nonsense

Sorry, but nailed the issue didn't you? I mean, it's it's about the fact that we live in a culture with with social media and all this where people do clickbait

Say things just to get people to click or to read the book or something like that But but after he wrote that book his life

Changed in the speaking circuit and all of that and I but people who follow him or have looked at his life and all it it's clearly he's shown that he has changed the

Theology over time as he's been being more with people in the word of faith movement and things like that yeah, he started out solidly in the evangelical camp as a

Baptist pastor and but once you begin to Jettison scripture as the sole and only source of Information about God and the

Christian life and heaven in the afterlife and you begin to turn to experience which is essentially what his book is then of course, you're you're set adrift on a sea of uncertainty and and Muddled theology that can just bend and shape whichever way you wanted to go it doesn't surprise me that he has found a kin a kindred spirit amongst people in the word of faith movement because There's many like Jesse Duplantis and others who have made claims about visiting heaven quite frequently and having

Jesus come and visiting them and being Transported to heaven just like Paul was and having conversations with Jesus, etc

So that's very common in word faith circles but it's not as common that that type of a claim is not as common among evangelical pastors and and in Evangelicalism or what we would call more conservative or Orthodox Christianity apart from word of faith movement type theology

Don Piper has gone a long ways to making such claims more commonplace and of course the

Burt post followed it up with heaven is for real and And then I critique both of those books in in that book that you're talking about, you know, you mentioned

Jesse Duplantis I remember Matt slick from calm org Justin Peters our mutual friend from Justin Peters org, that's a very original name and I Put but Justin Peters and Matt slick and I were we're at a conference speaking together

Justin was gonna be speaking at that and that Sunday morning Matt was speaking him at my church and Justin was speaking at another church.

He was gonna be speaking that evening and Matt and I went over to listen to Justin speak and it was really funny because Justin told us an account from Jesse Duplantis and Matt sitting there listening to it and Matt turned to me and goes

He just shocked me. He wasn't I thought I've heard everything but Justin Peters just shocked me

I don't get shocked easy and he was telling me the account of you know where Jesse Duplantis went to his office one day and All of a sudden

I don't remember the account all the event the details of it And if you get clouds without water to you, it's it's probably in there

But he was telling about the this account where Jesse Duplantis got to his office he was all ready to go to work and and all of a sudden

God was needing his help and so he took like a cable car or something up to heaven and He's sitting in heaven and and God was just depressed and he just needed

Jesse Duplantis there by his side and he was just oh, it was a hard day and and Jesse just decided he would just sit there and pray and and be with God and and you know

Stay there all day and and God's stay with me for the day and and around lunchtime.

He said Jesse You know what? You can go home. I feel a lot better now, and he took his cable car home and Matt and I were just like pulling our hair out like and people believe this

Yeah, and and evangelical Christians or or conservative guys like that are more lean toward to our camp

They would instantly reject that and yet Some of these same people that would think that Jesse Duplantis is a clown will believe

Don Piper and they'll believe Colton Burpo and they'll buy the books and they will pass it'll circulate them around they will share them with their friends and Embrace those stories as well.

Here's the proof of heaven then and because it bond on Piper's a Baptist and yet They're making essentially the exact same mistake

One of the points I make in my book is on what basis do you reject one account and embrace the other? So tell me what is the danger in?

In in this what is the danger in these accounts? We could sit there and look at the

Word of Faith folks and say well their theology is is really off the rockers anyway But when we have people like Don Piper What's the danger of these?

Accounts what we can't tell I mean you and I can't exegete their experience and that's what this is

It's an experience we can compare it to Scripture Like I said, someone that goes to heaven is gonna come back and they're not they're gonna be different They're gonna have a focus on the gospel

It with this being the case. What is the danger with it with a Don Piper writing a book like this?

I think one of the primary dangers is The way in which an embrace of such stories can end up drawing people away from the sufficiency of Scripture And what

I mean by that is is in Piper's book He says that one of the reasons that he's convinced that God allowed him to go to heaven

Was so that he could come back and tell others that heaven is for real to borrow the title of another book

That's the reason that that God allowed him to have that experience so he could come back and and tell other people about heaven so that They their faith could be straightened strengthened and he has numerous anecdotal stories about how he will

Speak in a church on on his story and share his testimony and then afterwards people will come up and say to him

You know I've been a Christian since I was a young child and I've always doubted whether or not heaven is for real But now you've experienced this and come back and told me about it and now my faith is strengthened and I'm so encouraged by this and And he'll say see how see how good this is that this person has been encouraged by that Well, I read that account and I say

Was Scripture not enough? You've had the Word of God you have the testimony of Jesus and the Apostles right there in front of you in written form

But that wasn't enough to strengthen your faith That wasn't the testimony of Jesus Christ was not enough to convince you that heaven is real the testimony of Don Piper was necessary and that's the subtle allure of such stories that they that they purport to Serve to strengthen our faith.

And in fact, all they do is Base our faith not upon Scripture But upon the experience of somebody who says that they went to heaven and came back

That I think is the most subtle and most insidious danger of all in the accounts themselves There's a secondary one

Andrew and I'd add this one a secondary danger I think is that it seeks that they end up undermining really what

Scripture says about heaven itself because there are contrary there are things in both Burpo's account and Don Piper's account that contradict what

Scripture reveals about heaven Burpo says that the Holy Spirit appeared as a as a blue fog or a blue cloud that Jesus has a multicolored horse

You know There are claims that Piper makes about People and their age in heaven and things that they say in heaven and if you read his book

He didn't spend 90 minutes in heaven. He says he spent 90 minutes outside the gates of heaven So it wasn't even 90 minutes in heaven

He lingered around the outside of the gates and met with his uncle or whoever it was. Yeah, he was never got into heaven

And he never saw Jesus or God the Father. No never saw Jesus never saw God the Father he says he saw it later on in a

Speaking engagement in I think a Chinese Church a few years after the book He says he saw God's throne exalted in the glory of it from a distance

But if you could spend 90 minutes Outside the gates of heaven and you never see the face of Jesus It's you didn't spend 90 minutes in heaven and you didn't go to the real heaven

Because the first thing we you and I are gonna see when we die is the face of Jesus We will be instantly in the glory of God in our perfected and sanctified state and we will see

Christ and be with him. That's what Paul says to depart and do the Christ is far better So the very testimony of men like Burpo and Piper It ends up contradicting the clear testimony of Scripture and then then you're left asking well if I am if I believe that Piper and Burpo had these

Experiences and I believe that these experiences are real and then they contradict Scripture. Who do

I believe Scripture or their experience? Yeah, but in this is the main issue, isn't it that we have a

Christianity that is following after experience and not Scripture Yeah Most most

Christians are so ignorant of what their Bible teaches about heaven that that they would gladly go on onto that book And I think you bring up a very important point this it is

Ultimately attack on the sufficiency of Scripture that we say we need some experience

We need to hear someone else's account to believe what the Word of God says It's not enough right

Scripture should be enough And even if everything that every person on the face of the planet said contradicted Scripture I would

I would still blow a Scripture because Scripture is sufficient Even at the testimony of everybody else contradicted it and yet you have millions of Christians Apparently whose whose faith is so wobbly and so flaky that books like 90 minutes in heaven and heaven is for real end up Encouraging them in their faith, which is is just so so misguided.

What is it for you? I know you you've written a couple of books right you deal with the prosperity gospel

What is it for you that you see is such a danger and a threat in that? Movement the prosperity gospel.

Yeah. Yeah. Well the my book the prosperity of the wicked now You're talking about my third book the book on the prosperity of the wicked is actually a study of Psalm 73 now see if you

Had read the book you would know this But I didn't ask about the book. You're trying you're trying to turn it, but I'm staying on the topic

See, I understand what you're trying to do. See I see See the fact that I that's a fallacy right there because we could we could play our game.

Hold on We have that Okay, and I can name that fallacy

Equivocation a fallacy of equivocation what what pastor Jim just did there for you folks is he took the word

Prosperity in the way that I use it and then turned it into the fact that he used that same

Word as a title of his other book and said, oh, that's what you're talking about But in fact,

I wasn't talking anything about that That's called a fallacy of equivocation where you take one term and use it two different ways

So I was using it in the term of what we were talking about with the context back to prosperity gospel movement that is

We end up seeing the extreme of the heavenly experiences, but that's okay

He wanted to try to get a dig in and you all are Eyewitnesses to that and it gave us a chance to play name that fallacy real quick.

So go ahead now and it's the question What was the question now that you totally got us off track by equivocating on the word prosperity?

Well, it begs the question, right? Yeah Yeah, you want to explain the difference with that So so what do you see is that as a danger with the prosperity gospel

Why is it such a threat? Well, I it's the threat because it's a different gospel and it goes it appeals to the weak it appeals to the poor

It appeals to the financially downtrodden where financial charlatans use the gospel and the name of Christ for their own

Fiscal gain and so I think the danger of it I know the danger of it is just that it is a complete and utter perversion of the gospel that leads people into greed and covetousness

Which is a form of idolatry and which is idolatry and It leads them away from the true Jesus and the true

God and into eternal damnation Somebody who believes the gospel pretty gospel cannot and will not be saved unless they repent and believe the true gospel

That that's I think the essential is the essential and the worst error and danger of it

I think that our Brenton Justin Peters, you know says it kind of clear, right?

It's a threat to the writing a book on it I didn't yeah, he said he should write a book on it.

Finally He's he is Good good. Keep them writing but but The thing is he talked about that's a real threat to the church because it masquerades as Christianity Yeah in some parts of the world.

It's the only Christianity that that they see in America They don't see they don't see the

John MacArthur Shepherds Conference type of Christianity. They don't see the reform movement they don't see the the Centrality of the gospel in the small churches and the little guys plowing it out with little

Congregations faithfully serving the true gospel and witnessing that all they see is what's piped into their airwaves by TBM and and those

Christian radio stations that networks like that run that's that's the only Christianity they see and I have to wonder

You know as all of this growth that we're seeing in some of these foreign countries Is it really the true biblical

Christianity or is it an embrace of the prosperity gospel? Yeah, from what I hear a lot of it's the embrace of the prosperity gospel

Well, it is it is I I had a pastor who contacted me. He out in Ohio He had we have a class on the striving fraternity

Academy on how to interpret. The Bible is called the school biblical harmonetics and in those 20 lessons, we teach people how to understand and interpret scripture

Very easy for anyone to understand there was a pastor in Ohio who had someone knock on his door

You know come in the office and this gentleman introduced himself. He was a missionary from Africa to America Now that right there should maybe shock some people that Africans are sending missionaries to America okay, but He's coming in with a prosperity gospel and he he wanted to get to know some of the local pastors because he was churching planting a church in the area and This pastor said hey, let's why don't we get together for lunch and he realized this guy had a wrong theology he wanted to get together and start discipling him and He actually suggested he called me because he said what

I would like to do is I want to know if I can get a copy of the syllabus for your class and if I can have permission to use your syllabus and Teach through it even though it's not you teaching it through the web

But me teaching it because he had taken the class and got the syllabus and found it helpful and I said sure if you go

For it, you know, I told him we won't even charge you I'll send you a free copy of the syllabus for this guy and he started working with this guy teaching him through a syllabus this guy had

Within weeks a much bigger church than the pastor who's been there for years But that's in the prosperity gospel.

It's appealing to the lost and so here he is and he's he's got this growing churchplant and he's meeting with this pastor every week for lunch and they're going through a study and it started to change his sermons and The folks in the church that were the leadership that were sent from Africa with him started noticing a difference in the sermons and started to challenge him and In that challenge they ended up saying that you know

This is this is not good for the movement what you're teaching and he actually told this pastor from Ohio and that the guy had called me back to give me the update and Because I asked him to give me an update and in the update he gave me was he said that this guy

Was basically given a choice from the missions board in Africa that he either had to give up this teaching that he was doing of reading the

Bible and Interpreting it and Exegeting it. He had to give that up or he had and or he had to return to Africa and he chose to give up the right dividing of the

Word of God to stay here in America and plant a church and So they stopped meeting Wow. Well This is the only

Christianity he knew one of the things that he had told this pastor was That he didn't know he went as they're sitting there and studying the the biblical interpretations

I didn't know there was any other way and I never learned this He said I didn't understand that there was any other way to interpret

Scripture or to study the Bible than the way we were told to use our experience Wow, that's sad that's probably very typical of of That prosperity gospel and and the spread of it in other parts of the world

Yeah, yeah, and in Africa it is growing But I don't think it's leading people to heaven unfortunately, it's it's leading a lot of people to to giving up their wealth

The good news is striving for eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks

Teaching them biblical hermeneutics. That's right the art and science of interpreting

Scripture The bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover Jeremiah 29 11 should not be their life first To learn more go to striving for eternity org to host a

Bible Interpretation made easy seminar in your area Can you prove that God is a

Trinity? Can you prove that Jesus is God? Can you defend the Christian faith and what is it that Christians truly believe the new book by Andrew Rappaport?

What do we believe will answer those questions and more some people just don't understand what the church is today

But this book will go through the history and meaning of the church and what's more important than to understand man's sinfulness and God's Salvation get your copy at what do we believe book .com

or at the striving for eternity org store? You know when I interviewed Justin Peters, we did a podcast on Catholic cat charismaticism, and I'll have to hear that again and so That was that was done on a different network and we're gonna have to we'll try to maybe put that out one day again on this one, but you know what we talked about the video that we had linked where there's a guy in Africa and Preachers preaching this guy comes up and he's being what they call slain in the spirit.

He falls on the ground He's jumping all around and all this and all of a sudden his phone rings and it's amazing He's jumping all around and he reaches in pulls out the phone.

He's like he answers the phone He just stopped shaking the guy preaching to stop. He answered the phone

What ma and he's yelling at his mother ma, I'm at church ma Yeah, I'm a jock all you later

And he hangs up puts his phone back in his pocket and then just immediately goes back to Gyrating and the preacher goes right back to the preaching

It was all planned. It was like there was was true emotion No, Paul an act.

Yeah, okay So you want to talk about your book the prosperity of the wicked obviously since I was gonna talk about truth or territory

But you you clearly want to talk about this. So so go ahead only because you brought it up only because you brought it up Yeah, the third the third book.

I wrote was the prosperity the wicked a study of Psalm 73 and so it deals with It's more of an exegetical expository study of the

Psalm 73 that kind of deals with ASAP struggle over the prosperity the wicked which I think is something that Job wrestled with and other

Old Testament prophets. Why is it that the people of God if they have God's favor? Why is it that they never seem to have the bulk of God's blessings in this world?

Why is it that the wicked always seem to to get the blessings of God in this world? And so ASAP struggles with that in Psalm 73 in the beginning.

He says is his feet almost slipped. He almost stumbled Off into the abyss of apostasy because of this struggle.

He saw the prosperity of the wicked He saw the unrighteous and the ungodly with all this world's goods. They they live in ease.

They die in ease He says and this was a cause of great concern to him and angst and then in the middle of the psalm

It kind of takes a turn about halfway through the psalm ASAP steps as he steps into the sanctuary of God and he says then

I perceived their end and then he goes on to explain In that psalm how the prosperity that God gives the wicked is not a reward to them.

It's not a blessing to them it is actually a preparation for their judgment and it's a whole different view of prosperity than we are taught to Taught to have in Western America and in our culture

It is a view of prosperity that says that God is God will sometimes raise up men in order that their fall may be even more severe and more of a judgment because of their wickedness and we tend to look at at the prosperity of Beyonce and Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos and all these people who have so much money and they use it for the most ungodly and wicked of causes and then we think why is it that they have that money in their

Christian ministries like mine and yours that Might struggle from month to month Why is that the case and and yet what psalm 73 reveals is that that is the case because in those instances

God is using the prosperity not as a blessing, but as a judgment and And that's something we have to keep in mind that that God is giving

Bill Gates Steve Jobs this money so that when he takes it away when they suffer eternal loss

That loss will be irreparable. It will be severe and it will be a just punishment

The bigger they are the harder they fall, you know the higher they get lifted up the further it is until they come crashing down and That view of prosperity says that that prosperity

God's given to the wicked is in fact a judgment upon them and so that's what don't home 73 deals with and and then at the end of the psalm a staff says

I I've come to understand that God is my good. He is the good to me The width of the prosperity is not good.

The riches are not the good It is my God and nearness to God which is a good for me So it's a whole different view of prosperity and why it exists and what

God is doing with it in our world and Why it is that sometimes the wicked get all of this money all of this fame fortune, etc so you're saying it's a good thing that I'm actually in debt with college bills and Soon to be a wedding bill that's coming up.

So you're saying that's a good thing for me, huh? Okay. Okay. Yeah Yeah, well, hey, you want to play the logical fallacy game again because we could we can name that fallacy

All right, so so let's get to a book that I wanted to get to This is your book

No, that would be a good book Um, actually, you know The best part of this book that you got here is truth or territory the best part of it is this part that says forward?

By Justin Peters, that's the work the only part worth reading I guess no, that's the only part you read

I Do like three out of my four kids You like three out of my four kids who all they wrote read was at the about the author page and all three of my books because their names were mentioned

I Didn't I read it. I didn't see my name mentioned. So I was very disappointed.

I Really want to know who did the doctoring of the picture on the back? That's really what I want to know Someone did a lot of work to make that look good

So It truth or territory the issue of spiritual warfare is one we hear we hear this a lot actually in charismatic circles in the prosperity

I remember hearing a lot of About quote spiritual warfare when

I was involved in the charismatic movement and people would literally have all -night prayer meetings stomping on the devil

Binding him tying him up. I Yeah, so truth or territory basically details two views of spiritual warfare one that we're probably very familiar with because it's very common in evangelical circles it's a territory view which basically says that Satan and his demons have the ability to claim territory and to People have people are fighting a spiritual battle, which is mostly a battle over over territory, you know praying hedges and generational curses and Binding Satan and rebuking

Satan and praying down territorial spirits and that type of approach to spiritual warfare kind of Kind of approach spiritual warfare as if there's a spiritual warfare is our our desire or attempts to claim back territory

You know, we have to claim cities for the gospel by praying circles around cities we have to claim houses by pleading the blood of Jesus and binding

Satan and Casting down demons and praying away territorial spirits and we have to claim churches by binding

Satan It's a territory view that Satan has gobbled up all this territory We need to fight that back through all these prayer mantras, etc

And the truth view of spiritual warfare is that spiritual warfare is primarily a battle of truth when we share the gospel somebody we are taking down their ideologies the strongholds of their mind that anti God philosophies and ideas of the age which

Keep men bound up in their mental fortresses And this is 2nd Corinthians 10 3 through 5 where Paul describes that Approach to the what using the weapons of our warfare which are not carnal

But mighty and God to the pulling down of these strongholds these mental fortresses that people have held themselves up in so Ultimately, I say that spiritual warfare is a battle for the truth.

We are we are not seeking to gain territory We are seeking to push back Paganism and falsehood and lies and the lies of the devil by proclaiming the truth preaching the truth and Advancing the truth in every way that we can

So in the book, I I deal with in the middle part of the section I deal with some of those common practices is binding

Satan biblical Are we supposed to cast out demons and perform exorcisms? Are we commissioned to rebuke the devil and should we be doing that should we be canceling generational curses?

What does it mean in Exodus when God says I will visit the iniquity on the fought on the children The third and fourth generations of the fathers that hate me

It's just kind of a it's kind of a detailed explanation of what true biblical spiritual warfare is yeah, and and the thing that gets me when

I first became a Christian I I Got saved. I went back home

Scared to let my parents know being in a Jewish home. I didn't tell anyone for two years I eventually went to college where I met

Christians that were in the charismatic movement I got involved in that and that's the first where I heard about spiritual warfare And you hear about this in in the charismatic circles in the prosperity gospel it's very prevalent and it is this thing where I remember in college people speak all night prayer meetings people binding

Satan and chaining them up and Throwing them down and stomping on his head and all this me gotta ask the question all this who's letting him out

Right, who's on who's on binding him? Yeah, I mean you're binding them and tying them up and locking them and throwing you in a literally with this this would be the prayers

I mean you bind him and you tie him and you you chain him up and you throw him into a Chest and you lock the chest and you throw it at the bottom of the sea you stomp on his head and you're doing all

This I mean all night. They would they would be talking like that and it's like how's he getting out the next day?

Yeah, no, he must be pretty strong. I mean Their handcuffs as if they're handcuffs and ropes in the armor of God.

Yeah I mean this but this is I think I had saw When I came out of the charismatic movement that this is a distraction this talk of spiritual warfare to me

Seemed like a huge distraction because we would spend hours and hours and hours in prayer

Binding Satan stepping on his head doing all this stuff and I come to realize

Like we're not doing any of that first off, I mean, we're we're not in that position where we could do that scripture doesn't give us that authority

God has that authority and I realized like what a waste. I mean

If you want to say who this is a benefit to Satan that you we would spend hours and hours of wasted time

Because that's really what he It's to his advantage to keep us misguided as to what real spiritual warfare is because then we're not waging it.

Yeah Yeah Okay. So so what is real True spiritual warfare.

You mentioned the armor of God. How should we be engaged with in it? What should we look for to avoid when people talk about spiritual warfare?

The way that we should be involved in it is is simply proclaiming and resting in the truth That is what

God has called us to do So real biblical spiritual warfare is not claiming territory and casting down Satan a real spiritual warfare is proclaiming the truth of the gospel so pastors are involved in spiritual warfare when they stand up and exegete scripture on a

Sunday morning and Explain the text of scripture and confront the spirit of our age and the ungodly philosophies of our age

You're involved in spiritual warfare when you evangelize on the street when you share the share and witness a gospel tract to somebody when you

Answer somebody's questions involved in Christian apologetics you're doing spiritual warfare when we're recording this podcast when you just disguise or describe

Logical fallacies and and do your podcasts on the marks of a cult and you're informing and equipping people that spiritual warfare

It's advancing the truth and proclaiming the truth and resting in the truth That's that's that's what we should be involved in and if we're spending our time binding

Satan and we're not out Passing out gospel tracts or evangelizing then we are missing the boat.

We are we are actually Completely involved in something. It's not spiritual warfare when we think that we are

Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute women women. You are referring to the daily rap reports that you haven't listened to Hey, I listened to him.

I told you before and I listened to him Your logical fallacies the the marks of the cult that you're doing this week

I've listened to every rap report that you have put out since you started putting them out You're just behind I'm behind.

I'm a couple weeks behind. How many of my books have you read? Hey, I read the

Intro, I've read the back cover. I read that the I mean if you expect me to read more than the table of contents

I mean, come on The I mean I've read better. I mean I've read the the left behind.

It's it's right next to that my my bookcase Well, it sounds like you'll enjoy my books once you read them

Well, look I read the forward by Justin Peters does that count I mean that's that's the only No, that's good.

I do to your credit to your credit. I give you a compliment I have never had a more ill -equipped host to do an interview with so this has been great

Hey, no, seriously, I mean the best part of these books is you know, I love whoever does it Photoshopping of your picture because they actually made you look good.

I mean, I've seen you appreciate that It took some skill a lot of it

So, so, you know when you actually came on, you know, I we we were Having a discussion in the

Christian podcast community. That's how this this hang this Podcast came about right this interview.

Sure And So so so much you wouldn't have me on if I hadn't called you out.

Yeah Well, you you said how about tomorrow night or you said you had a commitment tomorrow night? I invited you on you said you had a commitment.

You said you wanted to come in any time Oh, no. No, I said anytime I can be of service. I would do it Yeah, any any time?

Yeah, anytime committed. No anytime I can be of service. I would do it. So that's a You know, that's don't commit another logical fallacy here.

Oh I know I think I think you are you are so I I said I actually noticed a trend in the

Christian podcast community that people were talking about who will could be a guest and everyone was busting that they could they would be able to be

They'd be happy to go on to anyone else's program and and basically talk about how crazy

I am So I said I noticed the trend and you said I'd be happy to come on your program and talk about how crazy you are so You haven't done that yet Well, listen ask

Shepard's conference. I don't think I have a single picture from Shepard's conference That's legit without you photobombing it in the back

Or we're wrestling Justin Peters at some point and assaulting him So I have that on video evidence some bodyguard you are you you're sitting there as a bodyguard for Justin Peters and I was able to literally walk up to some stranger hand him my phone and ask if he could take a picture of me

Without Justin realizing who is behind him as he's sitting in his scooter and you're busy talking to the usher or the guy that was

Next to you having a grand old conversation as I'm choking Justin out unconscious and you're just sitting there being distracted

I was being distracted as I was dealing with other threats Yeah, well

I was Justin and I were Justin actually threatened me for the record he threatened me to beat me up that he was gonna fight me because I Wanted to give him well

He wanted to give me his DVDs and I want to pay for them and he didn't want me to pay for him

He wanted to be a gift and I wanted my $20 to be a gift for his DVD And he said he'd beat me up To give it to me and you were supposed to be protecting him against me and and you did a bad job

You you you didn't protect me at all I was able to get my arms around his neck under his chin

And if I wanted to he would have gone unconscious and you were sitting and having a conversation.

What kind of bodyguard are you? Well, I assessed the threats and I noticed physically you didn't pose much of a threat to it.

So I just And you know that that Online battle that Justin and I had

I'm talking about beating each other up Led to something else and it led to something that that you approved of you you

I called you and asked for permission Yeah as his pastor. I wanted to make sure

I could get permission You approved of a hashtag Justin I win campaign where we encouraged everyone to go out to Justin Peters org

Donate to Justin Peters and you could do this right now. You could do it today Go to Justin Peters org go to the donate section

Donate there and in the comments just put Hashtag Justin I win and what that is gonna do is let

Justin know that we care about him and that He lost his fight with me that he didn't want to accept my $20

Gift to the ministry and so I'm pleading for all of you out there to help me

Bless Justin Peters and the way you could do it is by donating to Justin Peters org put hashtag

Justin I win so he knows that he's being that the donation is coming in because he was just Refusing a gift from me and you could bless him since he didn't want to accept my gift

So I'm calling on all of my listeners, please go to Justin Peters org Donate to him any amount will do and put hashtag

Justin I win if you really want to get him tag him on Twitter and say I just donated to Justin Peters org

Hashtag Justin I win so that others know to go do the same just saying and you did that as well as I did

Correct. I did. Yep Yeah I went to the website and gave and and hashtag didn't posted on Twitter Just so people could know in it and you know this it really it sounds like what we're trying to do is bless

Justin But really what we're trying to do is just pump up your ego that you want another battle. That's exactly right.

So we're clear That's exactly right. I I want I need my ego boosted. I need to know that I have bragging rights

He has said privately he has conceded but I haven't seen it public.

I haven't seen a public seed Therefore it's still on it's still on the battle royal is still going and we need to keep donating to Justin Peters org with Hashtag Justin I win and tag it on him on Twitter.

So he knows until he concedes publicly. I Think this battle is still on don't you agree?

Yeah, I agree. I think there's no better way to show Justin some love then to Help you beat up on a poor crippled boy to beat a poor crippled guy

That I think should just boost should not only should boost your ego But make you feel just so good about what you have done and at the same time he gets some money and he's reminded of Of his physical handicaps,

I mean we're just hitting so many birds with one stone with this Yeah for folks who don't know

Justin Peters has cerebral palsy And walks with crutches or uses a scooter.

So see me beating him up would look pretty bad Yeah All right, let us get to a game that you will get to play on me

It's time now to start the Spiritual transition game

All right, so Pastor Jim, I am gonna ask you to give me something whatever you like to give me and I am gonna have to take whatever you give me and transition it to the gospel now

We play this game because the more we play it the more we see that we can take everyday Experiences any conversation that we're have in with anyone and not pray

Lord Please give me an opportunity to talk to this person about the gospel No, we can make a gospel conversation out of any conversation if we practice transitioning from the natural to the spiritual so pastor

Jim what Devilish thing. Are you gonna give me? I don't trust you at all.

I Know how to play this game because I listen to your podcast Okay, so here on the way home today on my way home to do this interview

I got stopped by a train No, no, no, we heard we heard that train earlier in this interview

Yeah, but that was it was a different train It was an earlier train Yeah train if you can if you can turn train into a gospel presentation

Well, you're getting on the word train, I think No, I don't think so. I'm not equivocating.

I mean train like a physical train a Train that takes you from point A to point

B that kind of train Yeah, or my dad or the one train that you ride a train that you ride

Oh, I don't ride on a model train. So you mean a train that a ride train that stopped you a train?

So you you were stopped because the train was taking some people from point A to point B But no it's taking cargo

I was stopped because the train was in my way I couldn't get home on time So maybe a train can make me late for things

Well, if you decide giving you like 15 different things that you could turn into I mean go for them but if you ignored that train say you believed that that train wasn't there and You believe that your belief would make it true and you ignored that train and you decided to just go right through The the gates are down and you decide you just go around them and go over those railroad tracks

What exactly would have happened to you? I would have been I would have been killed you or at least badly injured

Because your belief it wouldn't have made it true I mean the fact that you believed there actually was not a train didn't make that true that there was no train

That's true. So so our belief doesn't make things true as our culture believes does it? No, there is real

There is a reality yes Wow, you know, you know one of the things of reality is that most people want to ignore because people plan for they go to school they plan for College they plan for careers.

They plan to get married. They plan to have kids they plan retirement and the one thing they don't plan is what happens after we die and yet just like the train people want to believe that there

Is nothing after we die and they think that because they believe it it's true and yet Every one of us knows we're gonna die one day ten out of ten people died and Every one of us knows that we try to suppress that truth in unrighteousness

We know we're gonna be accountable to a holy righteous God and in that though We suppress that and pretend.

Well, I believe it's not true. Our belief doesn't make it true the reality is we will face a God and it's appointed unto man wants to die and then a judgment and That judgments can be based on whether we broke

God's law. So let me ask you a question Do you think that you've kept God's law perfectly?

And that's how I would get it a good That was a good transition. I want a door. I want a

Mulligan. I got another one for you. Are you ready? He's going for two. Okay.

He was like, wait a minute that one too easy. Yeah that he did that one Well, I got a stump him. So here we go.

All right I'm reading a book on the development of the rubber eraser in 12th century

Scotland go I don't believe that you're actually reading such a book What is the title of this said book?

I Want to write a book on the development of the rubber eraser in 12th century Scotland go

I Do believe that you would probably come up with such a book after reading your other books Well, once you read my other books then you can let me know if that's a good assessment or not so I I believe

I believe that you this said book is as fictional as the belief in evolution and The reason is is because people want to believe things are real that really aren't real and they do that because if they can

Avoid the fact that God exists which they know Everyone knows God exists, but they suppress that unrighteousness if they could avoid that fact and pretend that they're not accountable to that God They don't have to worry about their sin

They don't have to feel bad about it And yet we're gonna have to give an account for that to a holy just God and that God not only

It's gonna hold us to account but that God Came from heaven to earth to pay the price that you and I owe

That what we have to do is turn from our sin and turn to Jesus Christ That's well done.

I don't think has anything to do with development of rubber erasers in 12th century Scotland No, I dealt with a fictional book that you're referring to You know

Andrew one thing that would be good maybe a someday for a series of your daily podcast would be to Develop a set of steps that you use in making that transition because I hear you do it

And then I wonder to myself I mean, I know I could do the same thing as well I could I could I could begin to Trace in my mind down rabbit trails of what this subject will take me or similarities of this subject to some spiritual thing

It would be good to hear what goes on in your mind as you're trying to make that transition What do you look for in the subject matters that come up that give you a cue into to a gospel a segue?

Well, first off the inside of my mind is a scary place that no one wants to be Okay, I could buy that But you know what it really it's practice it it's a thing of I don't know what my thought process is to be honest

I you hit now in the head when you said that I try to go different down different Paths until I figure out what it is.

I want to say and a lot of times I can hear you do that Yeah, like you were doing the one with the guy from the

BAR podcast and he brought up the final four or the basketball championship something like that and I can hear you kind of talking about basketball and sort of it's sort of You know going down some different avenues of connecting some dots until you finally found one that you chased

It not every not every time and not every not every word in the conversation is going to give you an immediate segue

Sometimes you have to take that topic and run with it towards something spiritual before you can make that segue

Yeah, you didn't actually for instance in this example, you didn't actually talk about the development of rubber erasers in 12th century

Scotland You immediately took that into a fictional book and then said, you know, what else is fictional evolution is fictional

Yeah, I mean there's sometimes where I can see it a clear easy Way of going there's sometimes where I'm gonna rely on something.

I already did The eraser one is really because I dealt with that on a different thing where someone wants asked me to do son and they gave me a fictional story and I did the same exact thing and Yes, it gives me you know, and I've done that in in the public square where someone gave me this whole thing well, what about this and gives me this whole thing and I just address it the same way that's fictional and I because when

I go and evangelize now, I can reuse some of these things if I can remember them That's a totally different issue so The the issue though is the more we practice the more we end up seeing repetitive things that we can pick up on and You're right.

There are times. We're in a conversation. I'm I'm in my mind. I am always going down to say, okay

How do I get this to the gospel? How do I get this to the gospel and I may have dialogue with someone but I have a goal of always getting it to The gospel so I'm looking for different ways that I can transition and I I've had times in real conversations with people where I go down one road and All of a sudden they back it up and they go a different way and now

I got to take it a different way But I may try two or three attempts till I could get into a gospel conversation

But you know what's happening while I'm having that conversation with the person. I'm showing an interest in them. I'm talking with them

I'm listening to them Yes, I want to move the conversation in a specific way

But I'm still dialoguing with them about that and building that relationship Even if it's only for a few minutes so that I can get to the gospel in some way or form

Yeah, yeah, well done. All right. Well, we thank you for coming on any any words of wisdom

Well, wait, what am I thinking? I already know you you don't have any words of wisdom. No Yeah, no, I can offer some of something else though,

I Would I would just say if anybody is gonna buy any of the three books that I've written

I would be honored and thankful for that. You can get them on amazon .com and print and in Kindle and Just so that everyone knows

I don't make any money off of the books that we sell all of the money goes to the building fund for the

Kootenai Community Church and That building fund is to finish our new facility and get us in and we're hoping to have occupancy

Sometime by the middle of this year so that we can have you up in this fall and so by the time this podcast drops we'll make a final and public announcement of the dates that you're going to be available and up here in the

Kootenai area and You will be one of you will be our first Seminar our first weekend seminar that we're gonna have

In our new facility, it'll be christened by Andrew Rappaport. Oh, that's scary Well, I think we we have those dates don't we

I'm trying to look them up I thought it was October 12th to the 14th. Is that it 12th to 14th is what

I have Yeah, so we're gonna do we're gonna do a seminar the October 12th to the 14th

Well 12th and 13th, and then I'll be preaching on the 14th at your church. That's 2018 and that's gonna be in Sandpoint, Idaho.

So if you're anywhere in that area In other words if you're in an area where you're allowed to legally carry a gun um, unlike,

New Jersey Look, there's no resentment there. There's it's I'm not jealous.

I'm really I'm not jealous But it's without a permit. I do expect a glock when

I get out of the airport. I'm just saying I want to be caring But no,

I'll be out there, you know that that second weekend in October and The 12th to the 14th if you're in that area, please

Please go out and and come and visit. I Can't even pronounce the name of the town

Cooney Cootney Cootney Cootney see in Idaho weird names

You know But but I'll be out there and in your I understand you're doing this you're doing now folks if you don't understand

Pastor Jim has a very different way of church growth There's there's people who do church growth through evangelism

There's people who do church growth through the means of trying to invite other believers in their church

Pastor Jim does church growth by inviting people like Justin Peters to come and do a seminar and then he so loves the area and the pastor that he just moves there and becomes part of the church and and Pastor Jim has said openly that that's his goal with me

So I will see if you suddenly here. I'm moving to Idaho, you know that pastor

Jim Osman is the reason We're just we're growing the church one celebrity at a time that's our motto

My wife my wife is saying are you kidding me somewhere warm you said move warm No more snow

There's there's snow but it's not cold snow, it's a it's a dry snow. It's a it's a warm snow. It's snow

All right So so tell folks how they can get in touch with you and share with us any any last minute things that you would have for folks

You can go to Kootenai church dot org. Kootenai church dot org. That's that's our website

You can find me on Facebook. You can follow me on Twitter. That's what everybody says, but it's true and Let me see.

Yeah, you can find the books if you're interested in any of those subjects on amazon .com Either in print or Kindle and all

I can say is thank you. Thank you to listening audience I enjoy the rap report one of my favorite podcasts and I've enjoyed this program

Thanks, and I'll be selling my signed copies of these books on eBay and no kidding.

I Don't even have an eBay account so it doesn't matter No But in all seriousness,

I mean you and I love to joke around We've been a little bit more serious probably on this podcast than we've ever been in a conversation but If people only knew the the the banter back and forth with you and I in private, that's great

But but seriously, I do appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you've done and I'm looking forward to getting up and being able to fellowship with you again up in Idaho.

So yeah I'm looking forward to October as well. That's gonna be great Yeah, it really is a privilege having you on and I do

I do strongly recommend folks. Look the these books Joe all joking aside are valuable there there's they're dealing with issues and topics that we need to address and Quite frankly, no one wants to address

It this is not the sort of thing. That's gonna get you on TBN to be interviewed.

It's gonna get you here at the round report Yeah Which is just a step down from TBN, but it's good.

Yeah well, I don't want to be associated in any way with TBN, but I do want to thank you for coming on and I appreciate your ministry and everything that you're doing and the friendship that you and I have and I do hope that many folks will go out and and get these books

They will as the the book truth or territory I think is gonna be one for a lot of people, especially those who are in the charismatic movement or Leaning that way it is gonna give some clarity for you.

So, please get that book and and read it and Be praying for for Jim.

He does have a building project that they're trying to get in their own building And so be praying for that if you can help out in any way.

Hey, he would appreciate it. Just saying Thank you So with that we want to encourage you guys to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God This is

Jim I'm not able to take your call So if you'd like to leave a message Please press the pound key then dial your name then press pound and dial your number then press star six one two nine five five

Then wait for the beep ask for extension three nine eight seven one two B Wait for the second beep in the pound key and then leave your name and number or you can just leave a message after this beep

This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker for seminar to your church