Book of 2 Corinthians - Ch. 8, Vs. 1-24 (05/06/2001)

Park Meadows Church

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May 6, 2001

Bro. Otis Fisher

00:03: 2 Corinthians, chapter 8. We're going to have some examples of Christian giving.
00:27: 8, verse 1. Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia, how that in great trial of affliction, the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the rich of their liberty.
00:52: Liberality. The collection was to be taken before he came.
00:59: He didn't want to wait till he got there and then all the people trying to give he would influence some both ways.
01:09: So the collection was to be taken before he came and the
01:15: Macedonians give out a deep poverty. They didn't have riches.
01:21: They didn't give of their surplus or their abundance. I'm afraid we don't know much about that kind of giving today.
01:33: For to their power I bear record. Yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves, praying us much entreaty that we would receive the gift and take up on us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
01:56: For whom are they giving this gift? Jerusalem.
02:06: The church at Jerusalem. You and I cannot realize the love that they had one for another.
02:16: I must confess that we've almost lost sight of the gift of giving today. It's wonderful to give to the missionaries, but how about our own?
02:29: Many of them don't want their wants known. And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave out of their out of their own selves to the
02:46: Lord and unto us by the will of God. I have a question for you.
02:55: Does the divine will of God render the future sinful act absolutely certain?
03:03: And why? Does the divine will of God render the future sinful act absolutely certain?
03:19: Jesse, does the divine will of God render the future sinful act absolutely certain?
03:35: Why? Even the sinful act.
03:47: Do all of you understand that? God is sovereign. Now he does not make us sin, but the act of sin is certain.
04:03: Do you see the difference? Roger, do you see the difference?
04:14: Debbie, do you see the difference? I'm assuming she said yes, did she?
04:23: Very weak. She didn't laugh louder than she spoke.
04:37: It's the divine will of God, but sin is not the divine will of God.
04:45: Man sins. It's very, very difficult to keep the two separate.
04:52: Man sins under the direction of God, but man does the sinning.
05:00: The Macedonian believers gave themselves to God. Next week
05:07: I'll try to remember to bring a demonstration and I forgot it this week. If God doesn't have you, he doesn't want anything from you.
05:19: He doesn't need anything to begin with. In so much that we desired
05:26: Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
05:35: The same grace which motivated the Macedonians should be the same grace that would motivate you.
05:43: You believe that, Greg? Giving is a part of our worship to God.
05:56: If we do not have the grace of giving, we should pray God for it. Giving is a part of our worship.
06:13: Do you agree with that, Joy? Therefore, as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge, in all diligence and in your love to us, see that you abound in this grace also.
06:38: Now let me ask you, see that you abound in this grace also.
06:48: You abound in faith and utterance of knowledge and all diligence and in your love to us.
06:56: How can you see that you abound in this grace also? Everybody has their head down.
07:21: Well, that's for you to decide, not me. I cannot advise you one way or the other.
07:28: The Bible says we are to give weekly or daily or however we're paid.
07:34: Now God expects us to pay our honest debts. We're not to rob from that to pay
07:41: God. Neither are we to rob God. That's right.
07:52: Just be sure it's the Spirit that is not emotion. Is salvation an emotional experience?
08:05: Is salvation an emotional experience? Greg, how many would say no?
08:27: Now you may connect emotion with it, but salvation is a fact. Just pure and simple, it's a fact.
08:42: First, it's in printing somewhere. First, where Paul spoke to the printing church and said, no need not that your body is the temple of the living
08:56: God. And they didn't know it. The way it's written in that little passage, it's like he was informing them of something that they weren't really aware of.
09:09: So that proved that the Holy Spirit dwelt in salvation. And they had to be taught about it later because they didn't feel it.
09:21: That's good. That brings me to another question. Surprise, surprise.
09:29: Virge, which comes first, salvation or repentance? Repentance should come first,
09:42: Brother Elvis. I mean, I can't, but I know salvation. No, salvation is our heart. Alright, alright.
09:48: Salvation is our heart from the very start. Alright. Salvation comes first.
09:54: The knowledge of salvation comes first. Brother Elvis, you go along with what we're talking about here. You know, you go to all these crusades and stuff, and you see all these people going down.
10:08: Would you say that's an emotional deal? That's not. And I'm not saying some of it's not proper, but Lord, that's not what
10:13: I'm saying. A lot of that is strictly emotion happening at the time. You don't agree with that?
10:21: Yes. Most of it's emotion. You don't have to go down to be saved.
10:27: Now, you may go down and be saved, but the act of walking down does nothing.
10:34: And when you say that, that's where a lot of people get caught up in emotion. Everybody's doing this, and I don't want to do it.
10:41: That's right. But no matter what we do, where we go, how we fight against it, whatever the human terms are, you'll be saved when it's the right time.
10:54: Period. I understand that. The emotion is important. You can say a lot of that. Yes. Everybody be quiet.
11:03: Arthur's going to speak. When I was saved, it said, the spirit is like the wind.
11:16: It blows. You don't know where it's coming from or where it's going. It's not going to force it.
11:22: It's just going to be up and down. That's right. That's exactly right.
11:32: Paul is saying here that giving today is not by law, by rote, or by ritual.
11:43: I know that there are good Bible expositors who say we are to give the tithe, that it is biblical.
11:52: It's not biblical. Now, you ought to give the tithe, but out of a willing heart.
11:58: If you examine the Word carefully, you will see that the people in the Old Testament gave three tithes.
12:05: Now, if we give the tithe, then we have to give three. So the tithe is not the basis on which
12:13: Christians are to give. Paul says he's not asking the Corinthians to give because it is a commandment.
12:22: There's no commandment in the New Testament. Yes. Before the law.
12:37: Yes. I was interested to see if you knew that number.
13:23: Well, the percentage was 30%.
13:30: And you give that now, 10 % to God and 20 % to the government. That's right.
13:57: If you can save that, who shall give it? That's right, but it is up to the individual.
14:17: If you're looking for a standard for giving, here's one. It is the
14:23: Lord Jesus Himself. 1 Corinthians 16 .2. Somebody turn there, please.
14:47: Greg, read it when you get over there. All right.
15:06: Lay something aside. Period. We like to use the tithe as a guide.
15:14: That's all right. But your giving comes from the heart.
15:21: Yes. That's right.
15:36: Yes. That's good. That's great, yes. That's right.
15:55: Yes. Yes. That's right.
16:42: That's right. He wants the heart. He doesn't want the pocketbook. Yes. Yes, absolutely.
17:09: Absolutely. They're giving to please that person.
17:35: Yes. That's right.
17:44: Yes. That's right.
17:54: In what? Oh, I hope we never have a pledge card.
18:08: Well, those are all mine. That's his problem.
18:29: Now, if he told me that... If he told...
18:35: If he... If he told me that...
19:27: He reached out to Greg and said, Well...
20:00: Brother Fred, for the first time in my life, I'm going to have to correct you.
20:09: If the church knows that it is ill -gotten gain by any means, they're not to accept it.
20:17: Because that condones what the man's doing. It is.
20:35: Do you get rich in the stock market? Do the church accept that? No. If they know it.
20:44: If you want to gamble and make money, be sure nobody knows it. Then you can ease your conscience by giving to the church.
20:55: But if you know it, if others know it, then that's wrong.
21:00: It's just as wrong as it can be. God doesn't need money to start with.
21:16: 10. And herein
21:21: I give my advice. For this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
21:33: You can see... You can sign a pledge, and it's between you and God only.
21:39: Not public. Now, therefore, perform the doing of it.
21:47: That is, there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which you have.
21:57: It seems so easy, especially when we're caught in in something to promise
22:04: God something. A vow...
22:10: This is the same as making a vow. If you make a vow, it's totally on your part.
22:16: It's voluntary. But you better keep it. You can't vow to God that I'm going to give the first dollar of everything and then later renege.
22:33: It's between you and God. The church has nothing to do with it. A personal decision.
22:41: Don't think that you... Don't think... I didn't get it all down.
22:51: Don't think that you have forgiven it since it is unknown to others. Don't think that you're going to give something since it's unknown to others.
23:03: God knows. He knows for your thought. For there be first a willing mind, as it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to what he hath not.
23:18: Don't pledge three billion dollars when you don't have it. No one is to give according to what he does not have.
23:32: If you have made a pledge, you best carry it out. This is meaning a rational, basic pledge.
23:43: That is between you and God. Don't go brag about it or tell somebody. For I mean not that other men be eased, and you burdened.
23:54: We're not to be burdened just because someone else does not do their share.
24:01: If a person's not doing what we think they're supposed to, what are we to do,
24:07: Greg? If a person is not doing what we think they should, what should we do?
24:23: All right, but that's after much consideration, after much observance, and so forth.
24:30: No. If you tell somebody they're not giving enough, go to them and talk about it.
24:36: You may find out they are. But if you go to them and talk about it, don't do it.
24:48: But by equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, and their abundance also may be a supply for your want, that there may be equality.
25:02: Those that can give should give and should not burden those that cannot give. I'm glad that in this church we have no reference to money.
25:18: As it is written, he that had gathered much had nothing over, and he that had gathered little had no lack.
25:27: When was that in force? What? In the manna.
25:37: You remember he went out, a person would go out and gather two days because he was tired, didn't want to go out the second day, slept late.
25:47: When he got up the second morning, what had happened to that that was left over? Turned to worms.
25:59: So, each day, one at a time. As it is written, he that hath gathered much hath nothing,
26:09: I read that, but thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
26:19: For indeed he accepted the exhortation, but being more forward of his own accord, he went unto you, and we have sent with him the brother whose praise is in the gospel throughout all of the churches.
26:34: And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same
26:46: Lord and declaration of your ready mind. Whatever is given, it must be for the glory of God.
26:55: If you give for any other reason, if you come to church for any other reason, if you stay home for any other reason, it's wrong.
27:04: It's got to be to the glory of God. Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in our abundance, which is administered by us.
27:19: We're going to be honest on the use of the money. I have seen people come to church, not in this church, but I have seen in churches that they wore worn -out clothes when they had good clothes.
27:46: They wore holy shoes when they had good shoes because they're trying to present an attitude or an attire of poor, of being poor.
28:04: Well, that's wrong. Just be what you are, not what you ain't. Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the
28:21: Lord, but also in the sight of men. Give not to those things which in you have no knowledge.
28:38: Now, there's a TV program. The airway is full of them.
28:46: But there's one that you listen to or you listen to and you're caught up for the moment and you write out a check and send it to the person.
28:58: What about that, Fred? I never have done that.
29:12: I just think that's not the way that one would give a presentation as to sending it to them.
29:23: Give not to those things which in you have no, in which you have no knowledge.
29:33: Give not to those things in which you have no knowledge. Here's a man, XYZ orphans, and all of this.
29:41: They show all kinds of pictures of little children, very touching. They know that'll get money.
29:48: And you send them money. You should inspect.
29:54: If you expect, you should inspect and see where that money goes.
30:00: If it's going into his pocket, shut it off. You should inspect first and then contribute.
30:12: The world is full of that. And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent upon the great confidence which
30:27: I have in you. Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellow worshiper.
30:36: Fellow helper concerning you. Or our brethren be inquired of.
30:43: They are the messengers of the churches and the glory of Christ.
30:50: Don't give your money just to anybody. Be very selective.
30:57: Wherefore, show ye to them and before the churches and the proof of your love and of our boasting on your behalf.
31:07: I'm afraid there are a great many Christians who are like the young fellow who wrote to his girl.
31:17: Fred, see if you ever did this. I would cross the widest ocean for you.
31:24: I'd swim the deepest river for you. I would scale the highest mountain for you.
31:34: I'd crawl across the burning sand to the desert for you. Then conclude with a
31:42: P .S. If it doesn't rain Wednesday night, I'll be over. I've heard that the responsibility of the member of the church is to be the person offering what you build out of these to these people.
32:25: That's right. And if you give that portion to another person.
32:34: That's right. But I don't necessarily see there...
32:42: I think most of us have this to give to others.
32:47: That's right. And we use these. And so I think if you see a call that you really feel touched by, that even though it may be on TV or radio or other things, if you feel comfortable with the call and the attitude you give, even though it may not be the best benefit, the person who received that money is more responsible for that than you who gave it to them.
33:17: If you find it's important to call and talk to your mayor, you should support it.
33:24: That's right. If you give it to a ministry that's taking care of these children, for instance, and they burn up a lot of that, you're a part, and you're not doing what you need to do.
33:42: And so you should check in, but I don't think you should necessarily not give in that case. I think the greater danger is when we have federal deductions and other deductions for cases like the
33:54: United Way where no one challenges these donations. And there are calls on many cases for winter income.
34:05: And no one stands up and says, well, Washington is not good. It's such an easy path. Everyone signs online for $35 and $50 or $20 or whatever at the
34:15: United Way. And it is totally That's right.
34:24: If, to help clarify what you just said, and you made it very clear, the
34:29: United Way is, is what? The wrong way.
34:39: We're not to give because somebody else gives. We're not to give because somebody else coerces us into giving.
34:46: You give from the heart, and you give all that you can. But that, you hold the line there.
34:55: If you're giving to a cause and you find out that they're using it wrong, you should stop.
35:03: If you're giving to a cause and the preponderance of it, lest the maintenance of the organization goes where they say it goes, that's fine.
35:14: But inspect it. Find out. Brothers and sisters, when you try to check, they'll hang up.
35:31: Yeah. They won't tell you. Well, that's a cue to not write the check.
35:40: But what Clarence stated is absolutely true. There's so much given under pressure, and it should not be.
35:49: Isn't it? Right, I guess.
36:05: But the only thing we can do to think about our justification all night is we gave that money to the spirit for the
36:13: Lord's work. And he didn't realize that I actually gave him the money, and so we just had to accept it that he would use it,
36:21: God would use it, and sometimes those things happen. And you never know all those other cases.
36:30: That's true. There's lots of times you don't, lots of times you can't find out. But give nothing where you are aware that it's wrong.
36:40: Yeah. And in this, I don't think the issue is with the Lord. Yes, it is. Maybe I'm wrong here, and if I've been to people,
36:54: I think, I really have, and I've invested in the stock market and that money that comes from the stock market is, is gathered.
37:09: Well, if that's the case, then I'm going to have to give it to the jury. Because I think it's the intent and how you approach those investments, and any business where you approach investments in the bank to put your money in at higher risk and take the risk is wrong.
37:31: If you put it in the stock market in a very highly risky situation, it would be wrong.
37:37: But if you invest in the stock market just to say, I will engage this market to invest in your company or invest in the bank and do otherwise, your problem would be me.
37:56: Jesse? I think, as a matter of fact, I asked for those. Yeah.
38:01: Well, we don't agree with that. All right. Well, anyway, I just feel like, anyway, all right,
38:08: I believe, because I do have money in the stock market,
38:17: I just want to put those in.
38:25: Yes. I think that that particular topic is not, it's easily oversimplified because there is a way in which you can play with the stock market and gamble, but there's also a way in which an investment, after studying particular companies, you're investing in, what you can do is you might invest in your own company to build for the future.
38:58: And that is not gambling. So there's some truth to both sides of that, but the point is, kind of like this idea of getting to places that you don't know anything about.
39:09: If you invest your money in the stock market in a company that you've never done it, due to diligence and study, you don't, you haven't run the ratios on it, so you don't know how much debt they have to cash.
39:22: There are probably 16 or 20 ratios that you can run on a company on their audited books to know whether they're a strong company or not.
39:33: If you don't do those things, you're gambling. If you do do those things, you're investing. Certainly, as a pastor in the church,
39:41: I would expect that the Lord would lead you to give whatever, I'm not going to say time, but He would expect you to give it and give them a view of how to invest just as you would from here in the line of work that you lead.
39:56: So, there are a lot of experts.
40:15: There are a lot of people who pay money to start a farm. But that's a gamble. No, it's not a gamble.
40:21: I disagree with you. It's not a gamble. There's a difference between gambling and business risk.
40:28: Risk is involved in all business. If you want to have the owner of the farm behind your house and you spend half your money on five seats and you planted them and it didn't rain and you lost it, that's not a gamble.
40:41: There are some similarities to gambling, but it's not called gambling by anybody. I know that's just because it's a business risk.
40:48: It's all recurrent. So, you cannot say that it's gambling when you say that.
40:57: But I don't know, I think if a person understands the dynamics behind the business end of it, it's not worth a gamble to plant a crop.
41:07: So, if you want to call that gambling, you can, but I think it can easily be oversimplified is all
41:14: I'm saying. You have to explore all the issues of it. There is certainly a way to gamble in the stock market, and that to me would be just as wrong as gambling and a lot of other things they have.
41:26: If you study and you know business and you study business and you know how to run the ratios, it's a business risk.
41:35: And more often than not, you win, and if that weren't true, people couldn't be involved with it.
41:42: Companies couldn't grow. Whereas, with gambling, more often than not, you lose. The stock market for a business man knows business wins because he's investing in companies that are productive and doing such work.
41:57: He doesn't know companies are growing. Let me bring this to a close.
42:05: We never will solve the problem. Don't give if it's grudgingly.
42:12: Don't give if it's out of compulsion. Don't give because somebody else gives.
42:19: Whatever the reason, it must be to glorify God. Whatever you do, however you give, wherever you give, from what you give, how you make your money, has got to be to glorify
42:34: God. And if it isn't, and you know it, and you do it anyhow, that's wrong.
42:54: Well, I lived through it.
43:02: And I... I come out not smelling too bad.
43:13: But... Let's not argue about gambling or not gambling. We know gambling is wrong.
43:21: And that's your own personal decision of the word. Bill? ...apply this word to an activity and the activity takes on an illegitimacy where there was no real illegitimacy at the start.
43:46: We did that with respect to this airplane that was shot down in China. We call it an intelligence gathering.
43:53: Yeah. They call it a spy. And that's to that's to set a certain add it to a certain function.
44:01: Well, that's the way the word gambling does. It's a majority term. What I think is involved in whether or not an activity is acceptable or not is whether it's functional or not.
44:17: Whether the intent is dishonest or not. If I were to go out with a little tea and three shales and I stood with the tea in my sleeve and I slide that around and ask you to pick the tea that I owe, shale that's under, to view that as gambling with me as not my tea.
44:41: That's fraud. And fraud is wrong. And fraud should be punished and should be discouraged.
44:50: And if you want to call that gambling that's okay. But I prefer to call it fraud.
44:58: But there are other activities where you don't intend anything other than to invest your commitment to make your seat in the ground and hope you get a return.
45:12: And it doesn't rain or it does. When it rains, you make lots of money. It doesn't rain or it can't. There were some people intent in your mind so that was far removed from fraud.
45:24: If I go out and what happened to the person
45:32: I owe how do I repair some oil wells and I get all of you guys to invest in our oil and I'm going to show you all the things and all the wells and all that is played out still.
45:49: That's fraud. And that's dishonest. But if I go out and I intentionally intend to drill in a free open mill and I intend to make money out of it, that is in my heart that's what
46:04: I'm trying to do. And I get you guys to invest and we go down and get a drive home.
46:09: That's not fraud. So it's not to sort those things out. Somebody over there looking at you they may not be able to sort it out.
46:19: We're not getting that far. Maybe we all stay away from these firms. I think we should stay away until we understand it better.
46:31: The first point of violence is the violence behind it.
46:39: That means all things that we do whether we believe it or not are decided by the state.
46:47: And it reveals parts of us that we sometimes aren't aware of. That's right.
46:59: So we're out of time. Writing dismisses, please.