Tim Staples and Mike Gendron

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line today what I would like to do before we do any phone calls or anything else is to slow down a

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Radio program I was listening to a debate now. I I don't get the feeling

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I got the whole thing. I don't know It's only 26 minutes long But someone sent me a link to a

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I'm not gonna call it a debate a radio program that was done between Mike Gendron and Tim Staples and It's Roman Catholic program and but they're at least given equal time a whopping four minutes as I recall

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To state their case on the gospel And then like two minutes to rebut that what the other person said and then it ended in an odd odd spot

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So I may not have the entirety of it. I don't know. It's it's all I saw. It's the only link to anything I saw so but I listened to it and So I As I listened to Tim Staples making his presentation

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I realized that he has a a written -out presentation front of him And it sounded very familiar because it sounded a lot like what he had done with Matt slick where he had sort of done the

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Scattergun approach the carpet -bombing approach just throw so much stuff out there that you could never in any type of radio

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Appearances like that actually deal with the text that were being presented and there's lots of folks that are good at doing it

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It's not difficult to do I can do it I mean if I wanted to throw out a whole string of texts on the sovereignty of God and election and Predestination you can you can carpet -bomb anybody of course if you're a if you actually, you know believe that you need to be respectful the

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Word of God then you can only do that if you have exegeted each one of those texts in their context and are handling them correctly, but Unfortunately, Jehovah's Witnesses can do it

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Mormons when I do role -playing for example I did some role -playing when I was up in Great Falls And that's what you do you carpet -bomb the other guy you just throw a bunch of texts out you don't care anything about the context at all whatsoever and It works very very well most people

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Unfortunately do not know how to respond To carpet -bombing when it comes to the use of the text but what

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I want to do is is I want to in essence slow the debate down and listen to each one of the texts as Mr..

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Staples presents it and stop and examine it and discover whether one of the leading

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Apologists one of the foremost upon one of the foremost Bible scholars of the entire

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Roman Catholic Church at least according To Catholic answers initially, but remember they just kept downgrading poor

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Tim after it. I'm sorry what? There was a time limit on that Oh Sort of like milk.

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Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh it was well, then actually it was for a limited time only

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Sort of like a certain political promises, but anyway It's for as long as we want the promise to be valid is how long it's good anyway, that's

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That's what I wanted it, and then we can we can take calls after that, but I want to go through this There's only what six minutes worth of stuff

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So there's not that much, but I want to look at these texts because they are the commonly misused and abused texts

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That people have used and that certainly is used by Catholic answers

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To to misrepresent these things now remember I did two Bible answer man broadcasts with Tim Staples and in the second of those two the first was in 1996 the second was in 2000 and in 2000

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I'm scrolling down here if you go to the articles page if you go to vintage that ailment org slash

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Roman dot HTML capital R Which would undoubtedly offend Frank Beckwith, but I think it's perfectly accurate you will find a article by Colin Smith called

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Tim Staples misrepresents Paul and that's actually vintage that ailment org slash Staples gal to that HTML for Galatians to and It's interesting because Tim doesn't make the exact same mistake in this debate that he did back in 2000

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But he's only one verse off of it, and he makes the same errant application. I Don't know if he's ever read this it would be amazing to me that he wouldn't but then again as I've commented so many times

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Roman Catholic apologists just do not approach apologetics the way that we do they just don't the idea of actually wanting to see

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Meaningful criticisms of their position And interacting with them now. That's just no that that doesn't work, so I don't know if he's ever seen it, but Colin Smith wrote this article well, we might take a look at that because it does sort of come up here, but So let me

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I'll tell you what Let me throw the the

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Carpet -bombing presentation at you first now. Let me just comment Mike Gendron did a fine job he

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I'm not playing his stuff because I'm not criticizing him, but he did a fine job in in the debate and you know

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Gave a biblical presentation as to what the gospel is and the difference between faith and works and so on and so forth

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That's not my purpose to look at that, but I I would like to give you the idea of How it sounds because this again it takes me back to the days of Jerry Manateeks when he was with Catholic answers

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Because you have Tim doing this you know throwing all these Verses out and and for the average

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Roman Catholic who let's be honest with ourselves doesn't know enough of the Bible To catch any of these contextual errors it sounds very impressive

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So let's just listen to his opening four minutes, then I want to go back through it That's that's we'll do so here's a

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Tim Staples giving his Arguments on the nature of the gospel. I should our listening audience believe in Catholic tradition and Not in Mike Gendron's position of faith alone

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Well, I think the key here if I could sum up the Catholic position on justification or salvation

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It would be that we believe justification is by faith, but it's not by faith alone

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Our Protestant friends tend to emphasize verses like Romans 5 1 which tells us we have been justified

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And that's true our justification in one sense is past tense However the scripture also makes it very clear that we're not justified by faith alone

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It's also dependent upon what we do for example James 2 24 st. James tells us we see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone in Matthew 12 37

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Jesus says by your words you will be justified by your words. You will be condemned

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Romans 6 16 st. Paul says it's obedience which leads up to justification and in Galatians 2 17

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St. Paul says we are seeking to be justified so justification also has a future and contingent sense to it salvation similarly in Ephesians 2 8 9 4 by grace

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You have been saved through faith and that not of yourself. It's a gift of God not of works Clearly there

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Salvation is past tense and we believe that as Catholics baptism now saves us first Peter 3 21

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But salvation too is also seen as a process, and it has a future and contingent sense

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Romans 13 4 11 for example st. Paul says now is salvation

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Nearer than when we first believed and our Lord tells us in Matthew 10 22

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You shall be hated of all men for my namesake, but he that endures until the end shall be saved so once again

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Salvation is past tense in one sense, but in another sense. It's future and contingent upon what we do

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I think a real problem here in a key is in that word works that I mentioned before from Ephesians 2 8 9

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Romans 3 28 and verses and chapter 4 verse 5 are an example of The importance of this word

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Romans 3 28 says we account a man to be justified by faith apart from the air

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God Namu and Greek the works of law Now a Protestant friends will say we'll see that proves that works are not involved in our justification in any sense

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But that's false in fact st. Paul had just made clear in Romans chapter 2 verses 6 and 7 that works are necessary for us to merit the reward of Eternal life he says to those who by patience in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality

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God will give them eternal life the key is that Romans 3 28

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Excludes works of law that is works that the Judaizers which st.

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Paul is writing about we're emphasizing Circumcision doing works of law that had passed away in Jesus Christ But as Paul says in 1st

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Corinthians 9 21 we are under the law of Christ Not the Old Covenant law and another very important text in this

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Discussion is 1st John 5 13 where st. John says these things have I written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life our

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Protestant friends particularly Calvinist will say see we can know with an absolute certainty that we have

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Everlasting life now therefore it can't be contingent upon anything that we do

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Well the fact is true. That's not what John is saying in fact in the very next verse st.

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John makes clear. He's not talking about knowledge in a strict You know metaphysical certain you have 15 seconds left him in the next verse

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He says and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will

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He hears us, and we have what we've asked he uses analogy between the certainty

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We can have in our prayers of petition with our salvation I've got a hold of right there to confident assurance.

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Okay, all right and Mike I at least appreciate the guy was strict on the time so you've got to be with these guys because they will

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I tell you They will just roll on and on and on and on okay, there is your carpet -bombing attack now

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I understand if you only have four minutes you got to talk fast I would talk fast too, and I would present things very quickly, and I wouldn't provide any context thing

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I couldn't I understand all of that, but the problem is Each one of these texts if we just stop and examine it does not support

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Tim Staples position and So that's what we want to look at and then we're gonna look at his rebuttal too because he makes some

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Accusations there, too, but I've noticed that Tim has started using utilizing a lot of Greek He likes to throw out

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Greek phrases now and so I figure if you could start doing that then we're gonna hold you to a little higher standard and that's what we're gonna do is let's let's start again and Listen to what

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Tim Staples has I should our listening audience believe in Catholic tradition and Not in Mike Gendron's position of a faithful on Well, I think the key here if I could sum up the

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Catholic position on justification or salvation It would be that we believe justification is by faith, but it's not by faith alone

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Our Protestant friends tend to so it's by faith Coupled with something else and so all those texts talk about being justified by faith you get to find something else

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To couple together with faith because if it's not by faith alone that it's by faith

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Plus and then you need to fill in the plus part And you can't just simply assume that but that's that's the assertive side verses like Romans 5 1 which tells us we have been

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Justified and that's true our justification in one sense is past tense That's not all that Romans 5 1 says however

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It says therefore having therefore which wraps up Romans 3 and 4

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Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our

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Lord Jesus Christ You you have to allow the text to speak and it says we have peace

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There is an established Reality of peace between ourselves and God through the work of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else is mentioned as The means by which this has taken place and if you don't see that in Romans 5 1 then you've missed everything in Romans 4

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Arguing up to it that talks about the empty hand of faith Fitting together with that that grace it is by grace.

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It might be by faith It's those things are by faith so it might be of a grace because you add anything else in there and you're destroying

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God's grace So again as long as as you treat the text of Scripture as if it's just a bunch of disconnected

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Texts you can just throw out someplace. Okay. Well Then anybody can do this kind of radio debate but if you recognize that Romans 5 1 is a transitional statement and It makes the assertion that we have peace with God having been justified by faith

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Then you cannot just simply look at justification as Tim Staples would is something that's past and Present and future in the sense that you just keep getting rejustified over and over again when you commit mortal sins

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Or it's just simply a state of grace that you enter into by baptism or ever else it might be

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Just doesn't work. However, the scripture also makes it very clear that we're not justified by faith alone it's also dependent upon what we do for so there is your your clear statement of synergism and the fact that what

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God does is only a part of these this that you're standing before God is

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Dependent upon what you do. It is dependent upon your works. There is

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The the essence of the issue right there out front. He says it very clearly

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There are some Roman Catholics. They try to avoid saying it quite so clearly but That that certainly is the historical position.

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It's not just what God has done It's what you do And of course now we're gonna run off to James chapter 2 example

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James 2 24 st James tells us we see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone in Matthew Okay.

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Now he throws it out there and of course doesn't give any even inkling of wanting to give a response

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To everything has been said about this text I have yet to encounter and there might be one out there if someone knows where it is.

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I'd like to like to see it But I have yet to encounter after five years of the book being in public distribution in both hardback and softback versions a refutation of the 20 -plus page chapter on James chapter 2 that I included in the

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God who justifies I I would expect Given the nature of that chapter that that would have been something

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Catholic answers would have been on right away Surely there have been people who have written the

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Catholic answers and asked them to deal with that particular text But if there is something out there,

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I am ignorant of it and generally people throw things my direction so I find out about what people are saying and things like that, but it just hasn't happened and So there's it's just a it's just thrown out there and nothing about the kind of faith

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The demonstration of faith the completely different context of James chapter 2 completely different audience

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The fact that Paul and James are addressing two completely different issues in these two contexts

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To force them to get out like this is classic Roman Catholic eisegesis

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It is not allowing the text to speak for itself in any way shape or form 1237 Jesus says by your words you will be justified by your words

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You will be condemned now that one is where we first start seeing just how very shallow these arguments are

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Matthew 1237 let's back up a little bit and get the context

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But I tell you that every careless word that people speak they shall give an accounting for it in the day of Judgment for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned

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Then some of the scribes of Pharisees said to him teacher. We want to see a sign from you So that is the end of a discussion it moves on from there is

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Tim really arguing that Matthew 1237 use of justified here is meant to be parallel to or commensurate with Paul's discussion of justification before God Does not

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Matthew 12 36 make it very plain that we are talking about giving an accounting in the day of?

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Judgment and that this is a judgment in regards to our speech Does he really want to say that words are going to justify you?

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faith plus Confession plus sacraments plus words plus. I mean how long is this list going to get a

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Clear abuse to take any Appearance of the word justified justification or any of the dick

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I out dick I out dick I assume a word family group group of words and Rip them out of their context and say they're all always talking about the same thing

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That that's that's not even semi meaningful exegesis. That is eisegesis with the worst possible

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Direction to go it's Well anyways, so we've had James to thrown out no context provided Matthew 12 throw it out

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No context provided and neither one when we examine the context and at least that's what we're doing here are in any way relevant to Ameliorating what is said in Romans 5 1

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Romans 6 16 st. Paul says it's obedience which leads up to Justification and in Galatians to Romans 6 16 says obedience

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Leads you up to justification. I thought you were justified by baptism. I Guess what he's saying here is final justification and this obedience then is adding to your original

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Justification which would be the idea of doing works in a state of grace that merit

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Salvation so Romans 6 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience?

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You are slaves of one whom you obey either of sin resulting in death or of obedience resulting in righteousness

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Now again, Paul has now transitioned into discussion of the Christian life he has transitioned in a discussion of the relationship between the

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Christian and the the abiding presence of sin in one's life

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And is answering the question Well since we're saved by grace, then why don't we just sin so the grace might abound may it never be?

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How shall we who died the sins still live in it? And so you've moved from one context to another but mr

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Staples hasn't because he will not allow these words to have any kind of meaning in the

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Context in which they were originally used you just pull them out and since it's the same word

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You don't worry about how it's being used and you make a application so now we have words justifying and works justifying and Now all your acts of obedience all these things are coming together to create this massive idea of justification

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I am going to have to Roll that back a little bit here because we started getting in the next text.

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So which leads up to Justification and in Galatians 2 17

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St. Paul says we are seeking to be justified. So justification also has a

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Future and contingent sense to it. Now. Did you catch that? Galatians 2 17 we are seeking to be justified

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What is the text there well Galatians 2 16 says nevertheless knowing that a man is not

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Justified by the works of law, but through faith in Christ Jesus Even we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of law

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That's by the works of the law. No flesh will be justified But if while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners is

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Christ then a minister of sin May it never be for if I rebuild what

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I have once destroyed I prove myself to be a transgressor for the law died law so that I might live to God I have been crucified with Christ It is no longer

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I who live but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me so what he's done is he has taken a conditional and It's a hypothetical and he's turned it into an indicative a description of what we're allegedly seeking to do

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That we are seeking to be justified in Christ as if that means that this is an extra action beyond faith

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When all he's actually doing is presenting a hypothetical argument the saying well

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Wait a minute If if we are seeking to be justified in Christ and how according to preceding verse you does that happen by faith in him?

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And not by works repeated like three different times But if you do that then has

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Christ become a minister of sin because of the fact that we have to believe in him and it has to do with the death of the law and all the

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Things related to the relationship of the law and the Judah law and things like that But he's taking a hypothetical and turning it into an indicative and saying oh see

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We have to be seeking after justification rather than having been justified We have peace with God through our

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Lord Jesus Christ and again you just throw it out there and the only people this is convincing to are the people who don't know the

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Word of God and You know, it's it's it's a closed book to them They're not being instructed out of the

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Word of God in in there on Sundays They might get a short little homily at their

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Roman Catholic Church, but they're not being they're not they're not having modeled for them how to exegete and handle the

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Word of God a right with any kind of of proper mechanism at all and so For those sounds good

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The whole idea of what Paul's arguing about there and the the elements of his argumentation at that point in Galatians is unknown to them anyways

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So I just throw it out there and it did well and works for some people Salvation similarly in Ephesians 2 8 9 4 by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves

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It's a gift of God not of works clearly there Salvation is past tense and we believe that as Catholics back then

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For by grace you have been saved is perfect tense

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It's not just past tense Again we might want to ask

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Mr. Staples because he is going to be using Greek to translate for us take our karate s day sesos minnoy the apista o's

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Sesos minnoy s day sesos minnoy. It's a paraphrastic construction and The participle that is being used here is a perfect passive And so we have been saved we are saved and will remain saved by faith

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Through faith by grace through faith So it's not just see he just dismissed

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Oh, yeah, there's a there's a past tense ones, too But let's look at all these positive these present tense ones and these future tense ones no, that's not what

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Ephesians 2 8 is saying and It is saying your present state of being saved is not

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Your own doing it is not the result. It does not come forth from yourselves

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But we can't have that because mr. Staples has already said that a major portion of this is what you yourself do and so now we have a clear contradiction between the

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Apostle Paul and Tim Staples But he didn't read enough of the text to actually let anybody catch that but that's why we're slowing it down and Letting you actually look at the text to see what they're actually saying

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Now saves us 1st Peter 3 21 1st Peter 3 20 and 21

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So now sudden we we have baptism now saves us being paralleled with What is said in Ephesians 2?

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But the problem is 321 says Corresponding to that or as an anti type

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Baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh But an appeal to God for a good conscience

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So not only can you argue very strongly that what the baptism being referred to here isn't the outward external washing of water, but the appeal to God for a good conscience that repentance and faith toward God Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1st

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Peter 3 21, but there is no parallel in the context there's no parallel in the language between now saves you and Karate's essays as a

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Seminole in Ephesians 2 8 So to just throw these things together either shows tremendous ignorance or tremendous lack of Care to be careful what you're doing.

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You're just throwing this stuff out there Hoping that some of it evidently will stick on but salvation too is also seen as a process and it has a future and contingent sense

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Romans 13 for 11 for example, st Paul says now is salvation nearer than when we first believed now think about that one for a second

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Do this knowing the time? That it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep for salvation is nearer to us than when we believed

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And so evidently he's saying see It's a process and you're closer to the end of it and that that indicates then that you actually

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May have been justified but you're still being justified and will be justified and so on so on now

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There's no question of the fact that when we talk about salvation as a whole That Paul presents to us the now and the not yet.

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We have been glorified. We will be glorified There's there's there's the the fulfillment of God's promises in and we have been adopted we are waiting adoption but justification is not the same thing because of the nature of justification justification justification

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Provides to us that legal standing before God wherein we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and so Just going back and forth between the word salvation and justification

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And then bring in the fact that Paul does talk about elements of salvation that have future fulfillment

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Is again not handling not allowing Paul to actually speak for Paul and our

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Lord tells us in Matthew 10 22 You shall be hated of all men for my namesake, but he that endures until the end

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Shall be saved. So once again Salvation is past tense in one sense, but in another sense, it's future now again

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How many times have you heard me say that when we look at the text of Scripture? We have to decide whether a text is prescriptive.

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It is giving us a prescription whereby we do something to gain something from God or Descriptive he who endures the end shall be saved is a vitally important description of saving faith

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It endures to the end, but it doesn't change the fact that it alone is the only way by which you will receive

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Your righteousness from God and it's not really your righteousness the righteousness of Christ, which is imputed to you.

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And so here again the difference between the man -centeredness of Romanism and The God centeredness of biblical

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Christianity very very clearly seen in the consistent Interpretive methodology that is applied to texts such as this one in Matthew 10 and contingent upon what we do

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I think a real problem here in a key is in that word works that I mentioned before from Ephesians 2 8 9

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Romans 3 28 and verses and chapter 4 verse 5 are an example of the importance of this word

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Romans 3 28 says we account a man to be justified by faith apart from the air

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God namu in Greek the works of law Now a product of friends will say we'll see that proves that works are not involved in our justification in any sense

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But that's false. In fact, St Paul had just made clear in Romans chapter 2 verses 6 and 7 that works are necessary for us to merit the reward of eternal life

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He's now before we look at that. Let's look at the text that he just skipped over very quickly And is now going to now notice what he's doing

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Paul has concluded part of his state his argumentation in Romans 3 therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works the law and In Romans 4 5 didn't read that one, but it would be good to Actually back up and see the contrast that is provided there

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Romans 4 4 now to the one who works his wage is not credited as a favor

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But as what is due now, I immediately ask is that word work? the works of the

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Mosaic law Of course not The very language is used now to the one who works his wage

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That's the normal term for wages, which you get from working doing employment His wage is not credited imputed as a favor or according to grace but as what is due that is as a debt and So this is all debt business

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Work language he's using here. You can't say this is the this is the just simply doing circumcision or feast days

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But to the one who does not work and ergonomically was not here There's there's nothing about works of law in in for Romans 4 4 & 5 but the one who does not work but believes 108 -degree contrast the one who does not do this

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But he does this but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is

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Imputed to him credited him as righteousness So the whole point of Romans 4 4 & 5 is the exact opposite of the argumentation

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The Tim Staples is presenting. This is his whole point is To describe saving faith is that faith it does not

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Look to it providing any of its own righteousness It's it's the empty hand of faith and Tim Staples is promoting to us the filled hand of faith exact opposite But then he's taken us back to Romans chapter 2 where again

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Paul is talking to the Jews and he is Talking about their stubbornness and unrepentant heart

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Romans 2 5 because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart You are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God who will render to each person according to his deeds to those who by Perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality eternal life but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness wrath and indignation a

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Simple statement of the fact that God's judgment will be according to righteousness

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It is a sound judgment, but again only if you are so completely out of tune with Paul's perspective

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Do you think that what that means is? Well, this is prescriptive that is that by doing good and Seeking for glory and honor and immortality you'll gain eternal life that that's the reward will be given to your own works

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You have to be completely out of tune with Paul's entire argument at this point to take that as prescriptive rather than Descriptive.

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I mean if you requires you to have completely missed the universality of sin in Romans 1 in here in Romans 2 the fact that he is upbraiding the

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Jews for possessing God's Word But not following God's Word and then you have to completely miss all of Romans 3 & 4 notice.

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He's going backwards He's trying to interpret Romans 3 & 4 by going back to Romans 2 and taking a second segment that is a blanket statement of the righteousness of God's judgment and creating an entire

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Theology out of that that completely overthrows Paul's argumentation. That's why you don't find these folks

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Walking through Romans exegetically you find them skipping around jumping around and by the way just in passing

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Doesn't this kind of abuse of the Bible sound rather familiar? This is exactly what our

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Arminian friends do and in fact on many of the same issues Context How many times we tried to walk somebody through John chapter 6 and what do they do?

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They jump down in the text someplace else bounce backwards someplace else They can't follow an argument through point -by -point

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To those who by patience in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality

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God will give them eternal life. The key is that Romans 3 28

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Excludes works of law that is works that the Judaizers which st.

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Paul is writing about were emphasizing Circumcision doing works of law that had passed away in Jesus Christ.

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Now. This is the normative argument It's an old argument. It's been refuted for a long long time people keep resurrecting it the new

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Perspectivists and so on so forth are big on this as well But I remember chuckling when I was reading

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Jonathan Edwards work on justification by faith He even exploded this particular argument as well

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Because he demonstrated that well that this this works a lot of that's just circumcision That's that's just the feast days and things like that.

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Hmm, really For by the law comes the knowledge of sin

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Isn't that what Paul had said in this this very text? whereby law comes the knowledge of sin

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So that's verse 20 through the law comes the knowledge of sin What sin are we talking about here when

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Paul talks about struggling with covetousness the law? Demonstrates covetous. Which part of that law is it?

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Is it the Jewish law of Circumcision or feast days or not trimming the corners of your beard or whatever else?

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It might be is it the ceremonial law only that's in view here.

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Of course not It is the entirety of the idea that then becomes expressed plainly in Romans 4 and 5

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That by doing the things that the law commands that you can somehow create some type of moral

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Obligation on God's part that somehow that is the means by which you obtain

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The grace of God and the goodwill of God and so on and so forth Which no one ever does in the first place.

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No one ever fulfills that law, but it's not just the Judaizers Anybody who would add the empty hand of faith so that God's grace is no longer free

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But is merited because of the works of man and that's exactly what

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Rome does Anyone who does that Finds themselves under the anathema of Galatians chapter 1 but as Paul says in 1st

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Corinthians 9 21 We are under the law of Christ Not the Old Covenant law and what is the law of Christ?

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Does that include? priests and sacramental forgiveness and propitiatory masses that can never save anyone in purgatory and indulgences and Marian dogmas and everything else.

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Is this the law of Christ? Is that what's being crammed in that phrase and another very important text in this?

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Discussion is 1st John 5 13 where st John says these things have I written unto you that you may know that you have eternal life our

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Protestant friends particularly Calvinist will say see we I Love I know what makes me laugh

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Is it Tim knows so little about Calvinism the guy went to the Jimmy Swaggart Bible College for crying out loud

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Every time he opens his mouth about Calvinist. He he sticks his foot into it, and he does so graciously

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He's able to do so nicely, but he still does so The use of this text is not a particularly reformed application in fact a lot of people abuse first John 5 by saying see you look at this and You know as long as you've said the sinner's prayer this proves you have eternal life

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And how many times I've had to explain to people when it says these things I have written to you what things

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About not hating your brother and about walking in the light and and the entirety of everything comes before it

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This is not some just rubber stamp See you've got your ticket punch you go into heaven type type of an idea at all

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That's that's not the purpose of first John 5 that's not how we use it anyway Know with an absolute certainty that we have

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Everlasting life now therefore it can't be contingent upon anything that we do

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Well the fact is true. That's that's not the reformed position. That is not the reformed position.

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That's more of a OSAS cheap grace type

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Wilkin Perspective not not reformed, and I just don't think he understands difference between the between the two

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Is saying in fact in the very next verse st. John makes clear. He's not talking about knowledge in a strict

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You know metaphysical certain you have 15 seconds left him in the next verse

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He says and this is the confidence that we have in him that if we ask anything according to his will

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He hears us, and we have what we've asked he uses analogy between the certainty

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We can have in our prayers of petition with our salvation All right,

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I've got a and he takes him down ding ding ding ding and they're right at the end of there Okay, run quickly because we do have a caller

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But I want to bring this all together because I'm hoping this is useful to people because Tim does this stuff all the time

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And that's why we do this all the time, too Then he goes to rebuttal period and Mike Gendron has given a presentation of justification by faith and scripture

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The fact that Jesus saves us perfectly etc. Etc. And now here is

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Tim's rebuttals Okay, well first of all I want to note here that he was referring to a bad translation of Roman 1010 what he said with The heart man believes and so is justified

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That's not what the text says what it says with the heart man believes unto a stick I assume name unto

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Justification leading up to which indicates that you have to continue to believe

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Now that was very interesting that was what what to tip the scales to cause me to want to address this because I Love when my

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Roman Catholic opponents actually give me something to dig into We throw some

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Greek out there and a particular interpretation. We've just been told is in Romans 1010

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Now I went back and and I think what Mike was doing. I'm not sure

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But Interestingly enough. He said what we just heard Tim Staples say is that The translation with the heart and so is justified is wrong.

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If you just look at the Greek What is the most commonly used official translation of the

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Roman Catholic Church in English? It is the New American Bible not the New American Standard Bible, please differentiate.

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Thank you. It's a new American Bible Let me read you the New American Bible from Romans 1010 for one believes with the heart and so is justified and One confesses with the mouth and so is saved

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So the very thing Edith said was wrong is actually the New American Bible the official

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Roman Catholic translation in English is Rendering of Romans 1010 it also happens to be the rendering of the new revised standard version of the same

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Text but then after throwing the NAB under the bus He then

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Gives us interesting interpretation that somehow if you were to really look at Romans 1010

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What it's actually telling you is that there has to be a continuing belief to gain

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Justification now on one aspect none of us would argue that saving faith is not a continuing faith

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I've said many many times you look at the Gospel of John the saving faith that is addressed

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There is a present tense faith. It is an ongoing faith because it's a divine faith It's it's what

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God works in his elect people it that faith is the faith that endures no question at that point

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But that's not what Tim's saying Because he's saying that this this ongoing nature of the faith involves having works as well

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It's what you do and Somehow he gets that from ice to kaya soon ain't

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I'm not sure how he got that. Let me just read a comment from Thomas Shriner's commentary on Romans and the

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Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament In this case he says the ice

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Resulting in in both instances should be interpreted as conveying Result believing results in righteousness and quote and so if we have all these translations that say that even the

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Catholic translation and we have scholarship saying I would love to hear from Tim Staples as to how he

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Establishes this assertion he made on the basis of the grammar itself Because evidently he somehow feels that I used to kaya soon ain't has this kind of meaning now

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The the verb pistou is used here But it's in the the present passive.

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So is he emphasizing that I Just like to know because he took part of a very brief period of time to throw that out

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And I would be very interested in knowing what he means by it It's not and so are justified when he talks about the gospel being the power of God unto salvation

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We absolutely agree as Catholics It is entirely by the grace of God that we are saved and hope to be saved of course whenever you hear that you need to recognize that what the

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Roman Catholic is saying is that it is God's grace that has established the sacramental system and therefore made the the system available and you have to work the system and you

46:16

Gain your justification through baptism and then you grow in that justification You get more grace and you do good works in the state of grace that merit eternal life and so on and so forth so I Know we live in such an ecumenical day.

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I quoted it. I put a quote up on On the blog just today that just made me

46:36

Sadly ill But it's a it's a Timothy George quote, unfortunately but it specifically

46:44

Says and here I'll read it for you. The gaping divide between evangelicals and Catholics is ecclesiology and authority not

46:52

Justification salvation as important as that that debate remains George said there is enough commonality that evangelicals and Catholics with a living faith can recognize one another as Brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ with a common

47:05

Lord and common grace that brought them together The hard issues are questions related the church such as the

47:11

Petrine office the papacy and the Eucharist Those discussions will occupy us for the next hundred years well

47:17

Anybody who can think the Eucharist is not central to the doctrine of salvation on both sides of the

47:24

Tiber the sacrifice of Christ is the heart of the gospel and That's the same for the

47:31

Roman Catholic the Roman Catholic makes it very clear that the the Eucharist is

47:36

Central to how they're saved Just isn't isn't even dealing with With the issues in in a meaningful fashion

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So there's something there just to throw in to the discussion, but we must continue to cooperate

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That's what the scriptures are you leaving? 2nd Corinthians 6 1 Cooperating with with God we encourage you not to receive the grace of God in vain

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Cooperating with God so 2nd Corinthians 6 1 tell us that when it comes to how we are justified that that somehow is is a cooperation to where God can't save us outside of our cooperating with his grace well actually and Working together with him that is soon air gone.

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That's where synergism comes from work together with him We also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain. What is going on here?

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It's the Apostles who are working together with God in the proclamation of the gospel

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We're not talking here about how an individual is made right before God in any way shape or form

48:44

So this use of synergy here Yes, there is cooperation between us and God we are indwelt by the

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Spirit of God We are involved in doing the things that God would have us to do But those things do not add to the imputed righteousness of Christ as our standing before God It's just simply allowing the poor

49:02

Apostle Paul to define his own context in his own words That has to be done here when he when

49:09

Mike talks about Ephesians 430 that we're sealed unto the day of redemption Notice he misquoted the text he says we're sealed and so gearing guaranteeing our eternal salvation

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That's not what the text says it says we're sealed unto the day of redemption Meaning leading up to there.

49:28

So again, he evidently has a new Greek theory that ice has this idea of some kind of Continuing synergistic cooperation to bring something about But the problem is that's not

49:45

Paul's point Especially since ice is being used here with a temporal word ice a

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Maron Unto the day the sealing of the Holy Spirit Which was discussed in Ephesians chapter 1 and here in Ephesians chapter 4 the

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Holy Spirit of God has sealed us marked us With a seal unto the day of redemption.

50:07

That means the seal stays there not that we have to work unto Gross is a

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Jesus to abuse the text in this way There is nothing in ice or anything like that that can allow you to read these things in Again, I just have to say and I hope

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I don't get Tim upset because I'm gonna write to him We want to be discussing 1st Corinthians chapter 3 in January here on the dividing line, and I don't want to get him upset

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But this I he better not be using this kind of I'm gonna throw some Greek out here

50:41

In this way because I'm sorry It just does not follow that just because you can pronounce the word that somehow that means there's some some special meaning there the whole point of Ephesians 430 is that the

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Spirit of God is that seal by which God's Possession is sealed unto the day of redemption

51:04

That's God's he's called his our a bone in in verse 14 of chapter 1 his Downpayment that he is going to complete the work of redemption.

51:12

It's God that completes it. Mr Staples not us that is turning the text on its head other text of Scripture.

51:19

In fact in the very next chapter st. Paul warns Let no one deceive you by any means if you do these things look at Ephesians 5 verses 3 to 3 6

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You will not have everlasting life. He says for these things the wrath of God falls upon the children of disobedience

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Yeah, the children of disobedience which Ephesians has told us Ephesians 2 is the ones amongst whom we all walk

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But God made you alive in Christ Jesus.

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He's made a clear distinction If you just again if you start with Ephesians 1 and go through to Ephesians 5

51:54

None of these arguments hold any water, but when you just skip around don't worry about context Well, then you can come up with anything you want in John 10

52:01

Mike referred to no one can pluck them out of my hand Jesus says, of course not

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We believe that as Catholics just as it's written. No one can pluck you out of Jesus hand However, Jesus makes clear for example

52:13

Just five chapters later in John 15 that we have to abide in him And if we do not 15 seconds left off from him

52:22

So a classic example again of how to Ignore contexts.

52:28

So what you do John 10 Jesus is saying they will never perish and No one will pluck them out of my hand.

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My father's given them is greater than all No one's able to take not my father's hand. I and the Father are one Salvation is the work of the

52:44

Father and the Son, but you see Rome doesn't actually believe that And so you got to jump over to John 15 the vine the branches discussion of discipleship and demonstration of discipleship and say

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Oh, we'll see you can be a branch and you're thrown in the fire. And so doesn't that mean John 10 didn't make any sense then?

53:00

Oh, no. No, what that means is that's what God wants to do But he's really dependent upon us as if the two contexts the same context and they are not the same context at all

53:10

Jesus even says in John 15 the way you prove your disciple is by bearing fruit that branches are thrown away the ones that didn't they're not the true disciples and so gross eisegesis of each of these texts

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Thrown out here by Tim stables Let's see if there's anything right here toward the end because we still want to want to get one call in Mike emphasized that he can't that Jesus canceled our sin and washed away our sins in his blood.

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Absolutely But in first John 1 9 it says if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us again

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We have to cooperate with God's grace in order for that that he did to be effective in our lives

53:47

And so there you hear it was such clarity. That's not Hebrews 10 speaking That's not the one sacrifice that perfects for all time.

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Those were sanctified. No, no, no, no we want to take our experience of forgiveness in the

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Christian life and turn that into a general statement of the fact that God tries to save the sacrifice of Jesus, but it's up to our

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Cooperation and why do you have to do that? Because you don't have a finished sacrifice all you have is the mass and you can go to the mass

54:15

Over and over and over and over again and die impure Because it is a man -centered religion

54:26

Well, there you go See what we could do if we could just stop Tim long enough to actually examine each of the texts as he throws them out

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I Know you can't always do that in those radio situations Mike Gendron did a fine job in responding but I want to take the time and actually demonstrate that we can do what the other side won't do and can't do and Demonstrate that when we use texts they don't what what programs do you ever hear?

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Where they take our texts and actually give meaningful exegesis doesn't happen Doesn't happen

55:02

So, there you go a quick response to Tim Staples and his presentations

55:08

Right back the beginning of the program poor Jordan in Louisiana called Hi Jordan, how you doing?

55:15

Hey, dr. White and you had to listen to all that. But hey, we need to get through all of it All right.

55:20

It's okay. I'm at the call last week with this subject. We only playing Craig, but I didn't do that So anyway, my question is he's coming to New Orleans in a couple of weeks and he's obviously

55:31

Mullen if I disagree But I was wondering if you were there What and I asked or what would you ask him in regards to Nolanism?

55:41

I'm kind of in point question like hey, don't you see this or? Well, did you get a chance starting to watch the

55:49

YouTube? presentation I posted Saturday Of my criticism of middle knowledge from La Mirada, I Don't think

55:59

I don't think so. No, actually, I just realized wait a minute. Yeah, I did I did put him on the blog didn't

56:04

I? Yeah, well the second one the second one

56:13

I think would give you some ideas I'd want to put some some serious thought of this but just off the top of my head

56:19

Having just been doing all sorts of stuff on the subject Roman Catholicism shifting gears as quickly as a man getting closer to His sixth decade than he'd like to admit

56:30

I can do There's there's two primary three primary areas

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I would want to and you have to be able to make a question understandable and succinct for it any chance of getting answered

56:44

Obviously from my perspective I would want to challenge the concept of Molanism or middle knowledge on a biblical grounds and that is saying

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Clearly this did not become enunciated until the 16th century. Do you really believe? That everyone who had read and studied

57:01

God's Word up until 16th century just hadn't seen it In other words, is it not just a philosophical construct that is not derived from Scripture at all

57:08

But is in fact forced on Scripture from outside. That would be the first one Secondly, I think that the the divine sovereignty that is rescued

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By middle knowledge is a divine sovereignty That is impersonal.

57:23

It reads it reduces God to where he is thumbing through billions and billions of possible worlds to find the best one and if if the the question would be something along the lines of if The best possible world is determined not by God's choice

57:41

But by the content of middle knowledge, how does that save God's sovereignty at all?

57:47

It just seems that all he's done is he's managed to discover the one quote -unquote best world and then thirdly

57:55

Yeah, thirdly, I would say Is is not the the autonomy of man the free will of man that is rescued by middle knowledge

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Just a phantom because the fact that once God Actuates the one world that he actuates you can't do anything other than what

58:14

God's gonna know you're gonna do How is that really free will? Because if you do something other than God's middle knowledge changes

58:22

Then he can't actuate that world and and you're sort of left in a Star Trek situation of Time travel and paradoxes and things like that.

58:30

So those would be the three areas I would try to create a question in that would be succinct

58:37

Accurate and would actually force him to deal with the issue. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Thanks Jordan.

58:43

I thanks for hanging on God bless. Bye. Bye. All right. Thanks to listen to the program today. Hopefully it was useful to you We will see you

58:49

Lord willing next Tuesday. God bless I believe we stand in effort we must contend for we need a new reformation day

59:31

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