Christian / Mormon Debate

Dead in Sin, Human Inability, and the Meaning of Romans 8

Ten minutes of questions from Dr. White to Dr. Scharffs.

Dr. Scharffs, in the Scriptures we are told that man is dead in sin. What do you understand that phrase, dead in sin, to mean?

I think that means that we are fallen, a fallen people as a result of the fall, that we all sin, we all make mistakes, and that we will never find our way out of that dilemma until we accept Christ and He accepts us.

I think that's what it means. In Romans 8, 7 -8, the Apostle Paul said that those who are according to the flesh do not submit themselves to the law of God, they are not even able to do so. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Is it your position? You just said that a person who is dead in sin can accept Jesus. Would accepting Jesus be something that is good and pleasing in God's sight? Yes. So can a spiritually dead person do what is pleasing in God's sight, in light of Romans chapter 8, verse 8, that says that those from the flesh cannot please God?

Well, I've made quite a study of all those Scriptures that seem to support that point of view. The Scriptures make statements like that, but they also make the opposite statements. I found that in every one of those Scriptures, like the one you quoted, almost on the same page, they also talk about the importance of effort and work.

I think it would be an inhumane God who would not allow someone who is spiritually dead to come unto Him. In fact, the first of the Beatitudes says, Blessed are the poor in spirit. The Book of Mormon, incidentally, adds the words, who come unto me.

I think it would be a cruel God who would rule out someone that is considered spiritually dead. So, I have seen enough cases in my counseling of those who were spiritually dead who did turn around and accept the grace of Christ and His teachings.

Divine Judgment, Pharaoh, and God's Wrath

So, do you believe that it is wrong of God to punish sinners, such as, for example, Pharaoh, when in Romans 9, God says, I raised you up for this very purpose, that My name and power might be displayed in you, and My name might be made known throughout all the earth.

Was that…. I don't understand the phrase, that would be a cruel or hateful God. Is not God able to bring His wrath against a sinner at any point in time? I think He could. Yes, that's possible.

Reading Scripture in Context and Comparing Translations

I'd just like to say this. For me to understand the Scriptures, I read them in context. I study and ponder them. I have a book with twenty-six different translations of all the Scriptures, which I use because I don't know Greek and Hebrew.

And so, I like to see what all the different translators have said about the verses. Sometimes they're completely opposite, and that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. And so, I really don't feel qualified.

When you pick a Scripture, I'd have to read it in its context to see if what you're saying is really what I would agree with. Okay.

Well, I'm a Scripturalist first and foremost, and I believe what I believe because of my study of the Scriptures, and I believe the Scriptures are consistent. So I hope you don't mind if I continue to base my comments upon the Bible.

Moroni 10:32, Total Effort, and the Sufficiency of Grace

Maybe if I could for a moment ask you a question about your understanding of Moroni 10 .32, and then go back to some of those biblical passages. In Moroni chapter 10, we are told that if you will love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and if you will rid yourself of all ungodliness, then is the grace of Christ sufficient for you.

Do you know of...am I misinterpreting the passage to understand that this is very similar to the LDS Bible Dictionary that speaks of total effort being required on the part of a person who would avail themselves of the grace and mercy of God?

Yes, that seems to be the case. And again, I don't find fault, as I said earlier, with that biblical dictionary. If you're interested, I could give you examples. You've talked about the Bible being infallible, inerrant.

As I read all these different translations, which one is inerrant? For example, Job 19 .26 says, "...without my body I shall see Christ.". And so I find many Christian people who don't believe in a physical resurrection based on that one verse, whereas other translations say, "...within my body I shall see Christ.".

Which version is correct? The Jewish Torah says, "...from my body I shall see God.". So I don't know what that means, from within or from without. So what I'm saying is there are so many examples of contradictions in the Bible.

Well, sir, I would be glad to respond to those, but this is my time to ask questions, and I will make comments on those because the inerrant Bible is that which is written by the Holy Spirit of God in Greek and Hebrew.

But Moroni 10 .32 does say that a person has to love God perfectly. Do you know of anyone who's ever done that?

I can't say yea or nay. I think I'm trying to, and I have a long way to go, but there may be some who have achieved that level.

So if you have to love God perfectly and rid yourself of all ungodliness before the grace of Christ is sufficient for you, who could ever avail themselves of the grace of Christ? Going back to the Scriptures, and if you would like, when I cite one of these passages, if you feel there's a translational issue, I have the original languages with me, and we can look at those.

But I'll try to stick to those passages that do not have any translational questions involved with them. Jesus, in the synagogue at Capernaum, after the Jews, who were unbelieving Jews, Jesus identified as unbelievers.

In verse 36, he said to them, stop grumbling amongst yourselves. In verse 43, he said, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. Why would Jesus say that no one can come to me if, in point of fact, the reason for the fall was to introduce agency to man?

I don't know. Okay. Alrighty.