How Shall We Then Vote?--Session 3--Panel Discussion and Pastoral Charge

The Presidential Election, Trump vs. Harris, and Voting Strategy

Again thank you for being here really enjoyed both of those talks and grateful to have a little bit of time for some interaction and looking forward to hearing from each of you. Let's start with the obvious question the elephant in the room that is before us and that is we have a presidential election coming up in about 12 days and on the ballot are President Trump and Vice President Harris and so William from some previous conversations I know that you are planning on voting for President Trump and advocating that others do so also from previous conversations with you Matt I know that you are not.

I don't know if you're advocating one way or the other for others but I know for you that you're not and so I would just love to hear you guys talk about some of your reasons for voting or not voting for President Trump.

William will you start us? There we go. So I will be voting for Trump for a third time and I am gonna do so fairly enthusiastically. I think that Trump gives us in light of everything that I was just talking about the best chance to keep the lights on and to keep fighting and you know I came prepared to answer this question by by phoning a friend which would be John MacArthur.

Ever heard of him? Great guy like him a lot and John MacArthur he was actually asked the same question recently and I thought it was such a great answer and I would agree with all of it is very well said so let me read some of this for you here he said in this kind of election you know you cannot be on that side so he's talking about Democrats.

I think everybody here would agree you you can't and shouldn't vote for Kamala but he said to put it negatively we should ask ourselves who would do the most damage to the family who would do the most damage to children to the culture to morality who would put us in the most insecure and unsafe position.

The government is designed to protect law-abiding people and punish evildoers. I mean it's a clear-cut choice. Are the Republicans everything they should be. Of course not but you vote in a sense preventatively to stop something so that's the best that can be said about this election and there's a clear distinction and I don't think it's hard.

So that was that was MacArthur sort of abbreviated and I agree with him. I mean I think at the least you should you know hold your nose and hold the line and vote against Kamala with an effective vote which I really was trying to get on what an effective vote is and I do not leave a third party or right in is in any way an effective vote against Kamala at the least and at the at the best.

I actually do believe that Trump's leadership of the Republican Party has made some very important changes on some of the issues that they are focusing on. I'm sure Matt will talk about some of the ways that there have been changes that are not great but the emphasis in the new Trump led Republican Party on the American working class and the interests of America as a country and a people over and against globalism and corporate interests and mass migration and endless foreign wars.

These were things that we were not particularly well represented on under Bush and Romney and McCain if they had won and so I think that I like the direction that the Republican Party is heading on some major issues and they're not with us on some other very important Christian priorities as much as we'd like them to be but I will close by saying this.

I really don't think the Republican Party of old was really with us either. They just did a better job pretending that they were and that's I kind of like that about Trump. Trump is more honest than then some of the people who have pandered to Christians before and I'll really close with this Trump will give Christians a chance to thrive and flourish in a way that Kamala just certainly won't.

And so I'm going to vote for him. Thank you Matt. Same question to you. Can you just talk a little bit about.

Your reasons for not voting for Trump. Yeah well let me start by saying I am not I am NOT going to say that it is sinful or wrong for someone to vote for Trump. That's not my position. I do know people that are saying that I'm not prepared to defend that.

I don't believe that I do believe it's a matter of conscience. I think we're gonna talk about that a little later. But where I'm coming from from here from this thing really rest in two two points. The first point is I believe that I have to honor the integrity of the organization that I'm running in South Carolina Equal Protection South Carolina.

One of the things that we pride ourselves on and one of the lines that we're holding is the line of consistency. So I talked about partiality tonight. One of the things that we urge these legislators to do is either abstain or actually oppose any bill that compromises or shows partiality or falls short of what God has decreed about child sacrifice.

And as an organizational leader I feel as if I give them any ammunition by saying well wait a minute you voted for the lesser of two evils. Why are you now not endorsing my campaign. Because I did the same thing with pro-life legislation.

Why are you able to do the same thing. But yet you're calling me out for it. That's hypocritical. And so there's the organizational element of it that I believe that I have a duty to hold that standard just for organization's sake.

And the work that we're doing here. More importantly point number two is I mentioned earlier that there are three things that we see God judging nations for in Scripture blasphemy sodomy and child sacrifice.

And in President Trump. And by the way I'm not a never Trumper. This is the first time I've not voted for Trump. Trump is championing two of those three things that God judged in nations for he champions himself as the most pro LGBT president in the history of the United States.

And not only is he saying with his mouth that he is going to continue to protect the rights to sacrifice children but he's actually using his influence even now not being an elected official today. But he's using the influence in the clout that he has now to go backwards.

In Arizona he did that just this past spring he loosened up on abortion rights. And in Arizona so here we have a man who is saying the two of the three things that God judged nations for. I'm championing and so for me I brother William mentioned something in his talk and he said which which one of these candidates is or a vote is a say in which direction the the country is going to go.

And in this particular election I see the destination as being the same destination because both of them are placing themselves. Kamala and Trump are placing themselves in the path of the judgment of God because they're championing child sacrifice.

Once championing it a little less harshly than the other one but still championing it nonetheless. And both of them are championing prosodomy and so I believe the destination for both of those is the same.

I would rather hold my vote and keep the blood on my doorpost so that when God brings judgment for those things perhaps he would have mercy on my family and leave us as a remnant to rebuild once this whole thing implodes.

Thank you William. Do you agree or disagree with those destinations are the same. Yeah I certainly disagree with it. Okay can you expand on that. Can you maybe just give us a picture of what's at stake between the two candidates.

Well yeah so so Matt and I are working out of certainly a theological difference here like I just I do not I do not subscribe to this idea that we know we are participating in the judgment of God in America in a similar way to the way that the judgments and the promises given to the Israelites it particularly in Deuteronomy you know and as they went into the promised land applied to us today in the same way so that that's a that's definitely a point of departure.

I don't think that is applicable but then in terms of are they headed in the same direction. Well I mean Trump's first term is what I think we can judge him on and then we can also judge Kamala on this previous term right.

So I'd worked in the administration I worked at the State Department and the Department of Defense but I was privy to everything else that was going on in the administration. One of the things we did at the State Department in the Trump administration was in one of the very first things we did was we stopped funding for abortion access through the State Department around the world it's called the Mexico City policy and then we expanded it further.

We went after I don't know if you know this but many of your tax dollars get run through the federal government through the State Department into grants that get sent to NGOs non-governmental organizations and countries around the world that do things like reproductive rights and women's health care which is just a code name for funding abortions in Uganda and you know Brazil and things like that.

And so when Trump got into office and had the power of you know the chief executive officer of the federal government the United States he stopped things like that. My friend Roger Severino worked over at Health and Human Services and did everything he could to turn off spigots of millions of dollars in funding to Planned Parenthood.

Trump was the first president to ever ever the first president ever to go speak at the at the March for Life. And now I understand that our brothers to come from the more like you know the more I don't want to say explicitly abolitionist camp because equal protection camp they don't.

They don't view the March for Life as being such a great thing but symbolically in many ways I think that is. And Trump also stopped the embassies from flying the rainbow flag overseas as well. And so this is the distinction I think that we need to draw between sort of what Trump's personal opinions are on things which he makes known sort of randomly and quite frankly unhelpfully sometimes and what his policies actually were in his first term as president.

And then hopefully what we could trust his policies would be again and on on how Trump is using his platform I'll finish with this you know on the Arizona law right. So they they repealed the law that was on the books or got struck down so this old law really good law actually in many ways was sort of brought back up to bear that was much stricter on preventing abortion even providing I think there was criminal penalties for those who would seek an abortion or provide an abortion and so then you get but Trump before that had already said what Trump thinks about this issue and the Trump has never pretended to be a card-carrying pro-lifer really let alone an abolitionist so he's been remarkably consistent on that.

No you get Trump on a tarmac one day after he said what his position should be which is essentially 15 weeks exceptions for rape incest life of the mother it's pretty standard pro life stuff which I think is weak.

I'm gonna whore it in many ways but it's essentially a standard pro-life talking point. You get Trump on the tarmac asking him about the Arizona law and Trump just off the cuff says oh well I think it goes too far right.

Is that Trump really using his platform to fight you know the pro-life policy or is it just Trump on the tarmac saying what he thinks his positions are you know on this issue. So I think I think sort of parsing Trump this might sound funny and I do not mean to be sycophantic on this at all because nobody's paying me to do it.

And people have asked me if I'd work in the second Trump administration. And quite frankly if you follow my Twitter I don't know if they'd ask me to work there again with everything I've said but like understanding how Trump speaks about things verse what he actually does I think is very important.

Thank you. Let me ask one more question William to you as it relates to abortion. And then I want to expand out to some other issues as it pertains but one question that we had come in and Matt just mentioned it again you know that the three sins that that draws the judgment of God on a national level being blasphemy sodomy child sacrifice and Trump's compromises on those by God's standards of Scripture how is God honored by a vote for him when he is has expressed pro LGBT stuff for abortion stuff things of that nature by God's standards of Scripture how is God honored by a vote for him.

That's the question. Yeah. Okay I want me to that I would essentially say see those six points I paid in my talk in terms of other things we need to think about as Christians in terms of what is important for our civic life together defending the inheritance we've been giving voting for a future for my children.

I mean so like I actually I genuinely believe I'm honoring the Lord with with a vote for Donald Trump as best as I can certainly imperfectly when I look into the faces of my three boys and then I go vote for that.

You know I don't I do not want to and vote against Kamala. Right. I mean I didn't get into this in my talk but and I don't mean to be a fear monger but you know I lay awake at night thinking that if Kamala Harris wins how long will it be until somebody's knocking on my door from the federal government from the FBI because of the things that I say publicly about where I think this country should be going what it's doing wrong what I believe as a Christian and you know and I know of a guy who was recently essentially swatted because you know he was talking about Kamala publicly into one of his kids and one of his neighbors called the police on him and lied and said he was leading his kid around the neighborhood by a leash which certainly wasn't true but they overheard him.

Right. It's like this is what we're dealing with and so I mean I think I think voting against this great evil is a way to honor God with the civic duty that I have in this country. Thank you. I'm gonna give this question to both of you.

We'll start with you Matt. How important when you vote on November 5th. How important how crucial is it to support a candidate that you trust will safeguard the future of our Republic. So.

I don't often you mentioned it rep but I had no intention of mentioning it in my talk. And I rarely do because it doesn't really apply when I'm preaching. But with regards to safeguarding the Republic let me say that I'm not only here speaking to you as a brother in Christ tonight.

I'm speaking to you as a retired Marine who has two combat deployments under him who has nine stars tattooed on his left arm representing brothers in arms that died overseas. I am a patriot. I love this country.

I drive a big Ford truck. I've got a lot of guns. My house is the safest house in Spartanburg County. When it goes down I love our freedoms. I love our history. This is the greatest nation the planet has ever known and I do want to see it preserved.

And it is for that exact reason that I do not believe casting a vote for either candidate is a wise decision. I view America right now as the Titanic. And whether you're trying to scoop out water out of the kitchen or scoop out water out of the you know the dining hall I believe at this point the ship is going down.

And quite frankly I believe it is the hand of God that is bringing it down. We are not so special that we can escape the judgment of God for our tolerance and apathy towards child sacrifice towards sodomy again these are things that God judged the nations for.

And I do believe that we are not just heading towards judgment. I do believe that we are in it. We've got kids walking around believing that they're animals ding ding ding Nebuchadnezzar. I believe we're there.

And I believe that the only way that this nation is going to course correct is through repentance. And I do believe that repentance when we read scriptures unfortunately typically for a lot of hard-headed people like Israel like ourself at this stage in the game is going to only come on the hills of judgment.

And now do I believe that we should go vote for Kamala to fast forward that process. Of course not but I'm just convinced that that's where we are. And when that judgment comes I would rather again lay my head on my pillow at night knowing that perhaps God may have mercy on my home let me push back on.

That or just has a follow-up question if you're not advocating voting for Kamala do you accept the premise that a third-party vote or a write-in vote or an extension is an effective means for accomplishing anything there.

So two.

Points to that do I believe it's going to be effective in this election. No because there's not been in a large enough concerted effort to get a third-party. Write-in. Brother William would be much more intelligible on this point than I am at this point but correct me if I'm wrong.

But if a third-party gets enough votes doesn't do something happen in a in a general election or like if enough people vote for Mickey Mouse to something something crap heard someone say before that.

I've usually got a friend named Bradley Pierce's an attorney that I run this stuff by. He's not here so I can't phone a friend at the moment. But if enough people put get a third party and there's enough people there does something take place or is that is am I misinformed I.

Really don't know. I mean though the only way it could possibly matter this year is if there was a third party candidate that actually won enough electoral college votes to deny one of the major candidates the 270 threshold necessary to win.

And I will actually I would wager all three of my boys on the fact that not not a single third party candidate is going to win a single electoral vote. So maybe that's what Bradley's talking about in a future where a third party candidate actually wins states and gets electoral college.

Votes I will say then it would go to the house. Okay. That is the practical point of that that I do believe that there is a way that it can be done if the effort is concerted effectively. But besides that who am I going to write in.

I don't know. I may write in Dusty Deavers. I might just write in Jesus as King. I don't know. But what I do know is I'm not putting my vote on a man that is pro-sodomy or pro-child sacrifice. We have only asked that same question to.

You but I have another question that came to mind. So I've heard a lot of people who are not voting for Trump talking about they're gonna abstain because they want to. They want to teach the GOP a lesson.

They want to withhold votes in order so that the voice their voice by negation can be heard so that the GOP will go back to a more anti-abortion party platform. Can you you worked in DC politics. Can you just talk to us a little bit about presidential elections and then elections in general.

And what does it take to actually teach a party a lesson what does withholding a vote. Does it accomplish that. Well I don't think so at all. I don't think there's like I mean there's there's really it's really hard to discern how and why you know a candidate lost right like they do these autopsies right after after a candidate loses.

So in Romney when Romney lost in 2012 like the official GOP autopsy was essentially that the GOP needed to like double down on being like more pro immigration and more pro free trade. And then Trump came in 2016 and did it like the reverse of the 2020 2012 autopsy and then won right.

And so like you know it's it's you're not unless there's like a critical mass which brothers sisters there just isn't there just isn't. You're not teaching anybody a lesson now. I'm not saying your vote doesn't count.

It certainly does actually live in a town where our mayor of Monroe North Carolina was finally decided by a coin flip. I kid you not it was a tied election and he was decided by a coin flip. So your your vote does count for sure and certain.

And you know Christians have a bad history of sitting out elections. We're seeing data showing that maybe 32 million Christians would sit out this election. But I actually do wonder I'm quite concerned if it if it works in reverse in our current American political situation because Trump appeals to a lot of people that are not born-again evangelical Christians or particularly church Christians or even what you could call card-carrying conservatives.

Trump appeals to many people who were Obama voters before they were Trump voters because they're voting on these issues like trade and immigration and the economy against wokeness and things like that.

And so if a bunch of Christians sit out to try to send Trump a lesson and teach Trump a lesson and he wins anyway the lesson that the GOP is going to learn is actually we don't need you guys. You know that's that's one possible option there.

And I would hate to see that how crucial is it to vote for somebody that's going to secure the Republic when you vote on November 5. Yeah. Well yeah. So I mean we can't you know we can't really get get into this.

But you know I would actually push back on Matt and say that the logical conclusion of his conception of America being under judgment would be to actually go vote for Kamala. Like if you think that we're being judged for these things and that there's no way out of it other than sort of a burn down and a rebuild.

And if you think that's actually you you feel like you can discern that that's God's sovereign plan for us then I think you the logical conclusion is to go do it. But see I I'm just not that confident.

I don't think America is you know so special it can't escape God's judgment. It certainly it certainly can't. But I don't think it's determined at all. Like I do not I can't search the pages of scriptures and see that God is not planning for there to be revival and renewal of the United States of America.

I don't know that maybe not but maybe so but I can use my wisdom and my prudence to discern what conditions in our country would make it more likely that those things could occur. I'll tell you one of those conditions would be that churches stay open and that Christians can be involved in the public square.

And Kamala was just on an NBC interview saying that she doesn't even believe in abortion exceptions for religious doctors you know Catholic hospitals you know if she got her way on that then essentially Christians start getting forced out of the public square almost entirely shredding the First Amendment.

I have no doubt that she would weaponize as as Biden already is weaponizing the FBI to go after Catholics in particular that you know they will label us as domestic extremists and they will seek to shut our churches down.

You know and it's not saying that the church can't thrive under persecution. It certainly can. But the church thriving under persecution does not in any way necessarily equate to any sort of civic renewal.

And so you know that's this gets back to just using principles of reason and prudence that in the faculties that God has given us that I I'm going to I'm going to vote for more time here in this country and hope that with more time under a Christian friendly Trump administration that God would be gracious to us and pour out his spirit on us in repentance.

And I just like I really can't say that I'm confident I know that the judgment that America is under for whatever reason can't be reversed. We've talked a lot about abortion. I want to focus on a few other issues.

What are some of the the other issues that you see are are at play in this election. And how should Christians be thinking about those whoever wants to take that first. Okay all right. I mean so there's some other really major issues too and let me say there's so much that can be said here.

Thank you all for so patiently listening. But we live in I would say fairly unprecedented times in recent American history and we have had a luxury I think in many ways of being sort of what we could call single-issue voters you know on on issues like abortion in particular and I think that luxury sort of slipping away from us pretty quickly and it requires for us to think hard about what it means for Christians to exercise political power.

I mean that's what a vote is. It's an exercise in political power and so are we saying as Christians that if we only if we do not have say like an equal protection style choice running at the presidential level that we need to exercise zero political power and say on who's gonna occupy the Oval Office.

I'm not confident that that's the decision that we need to be drawing as Christians right the idea that unless we have an equal protection candidate we cannot cast an effective vote in a presidential election.

I do not agree with that. So that brings in other issues that we need to consider and I've said this before and I'll say it again because this is so important now and it's immigration brothers and sisters we are not going to be able to abolish abortion at the state levels when millions and millions of illegal immigrants are being brought into the United States under Democrat patronage and then being rewarded with citizenship such that the roles are so bloated that you get sort of permanent blue party rule in more and more states across America.

I mean look at what's happening in Texas right now. Pay attention to Texas on November 5 and see how close that margin is and that should concern you. But then look at Florida and see how like the steady hand of a strong Republican governor can actually help sway things as well.

But immigration I'm telling you is a is a major issue right now. It is quite frankly a question of national suicide if we do not stem the flow of illegal immigration here and then the second thing too would be foreign policy I think is really important something also that a lot of just regular conservative Christians don't tune into that often you also cannot abolish abortion if we have a nuclear holocaust.

Right. And it's not it is not fear-mongering to say that under the Biden administration's leadership and even worse under Kamala. I mean have you watched Kamala on these interviews. Can you imagine her negotiating with Putin or Xi Jinping or with the Iran.

I mean and in particularly with what we're doing in Ukraine which is volatile and dangerous and the way that they approach Russia and Putin in particular is of serious concern for me. So I'd say immigration and foreign policy.

And last one last one is ending wokeness in the federal government and there are other deeply anti-christian policies at play here all across our federal government DEI which is significantly impacting our military's lethality and its readiness.

I mean we have we have generals who are doing drag shows on our aircraft carriers instead of figuring out how to crush our enemies. Right. And so it's like you know rooting out DEI at the federal level is a huge thing too I mean there's so there's so many that have risen.

But immigration foreign policy and crushing wokeness at the federal level are three that I would say at least are there for me they're worth getting my vote across the finish line. Matt what other issues do you see it play.

I would.

Actually agree with what William just said. Again I think my approach to how to fix these things is different. I'm a simple guy you know I wouldn't even do in this five years ago I was building furniture knew nothing about politics knew nothing about abortion legislation or any of these things.

I just picked up my Bible read what it said and went and so I look at things very simply. I appreciate Williams expertise on this. I really have learned a lot tonight and look forward to listening to you more.

But again I'm just a simple man and I read the prophet Amos in Amos chapter 5 starting in verse 21. This is Yahweh this is our triune God speaking through the prophecy prophet Amos. And he says. I hate and I despise your feasts and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.

Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings I will not accept them says the Lord. And the peace offerings of your fattened animals. I will not even look upon them. Take away from me the noise of your songs to the melody of your harps.

I will not listen but let justice roll down like waters in righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. Did you bring to me the sacrifices and offerings during the 40 years in the wilderness. Oh house of Israel you shall take up sicketh your king and Kai and your star God your images that you made for yourselves.

And I will send you into exile beyond Damascus says the Lord. I agree wholeheartedly that immigration is a massive massive issue. I've got daughters. It does keep me up at night wondering what this could look like if this goes off the rails.

But when I read scripture consistently in the old in the Old Testament what God is talking to Amos saying through Amos to the people there is. I'm not worried about anything else that you concerned about.

I'm not even listening to your prayers and your worship so long as you're allowing child sacrifice to go on in your midst. And so I almost think it's a new point to talk about immigration. To talk about foreign policy to talk about the economy.

I don't think raising these things up as issues to God while we're being tolerant and apathetic towards child sacrifice is going to matter at all. When we read in Isaiah. When we read in Exodus won't.

Or Isaiah when we read in Ezekiel. When we read in Jeremiah we do see people outside the covenant people of God coming into the camp of God's covenant people to judge them to take them captive. But what you also see is God strengthening their hand against his covenant people because of child sacrifice.

So again to take it back. I just I believe this is such a big deal to God that nothing else really matters outside of this point.

Theological Differences Over National Judgment and America’s Covenant Status

William do you want a 30 to 60 second rebuttal there. And then I have one more question for each of you but I can see you falling out the ground here. Yeah. Well so the the issue here and I appreciate Matt everything he's doing and I was it was wonderful to hear the work he's doing and I I agree like morally and and politically that equal protection under law for the unborn is the standard.

It's the goal. But theologically I do not agree and I do not think that the Bible teaches that America is God's covenant people. We are not in a one-for-one position with the Israelites here. So America as a nation is not a holy covenanted people with God such that if we are not following the you know the procedures for worship and life that were given to the Old Testament Israelites that God is turning his ears to us in the exact same one-for-one scenario.

In fact the the passage I was thinking of in the New Testament that is probably most akin to this is God's new covenant people is the church. And in the church's community we must be righteous and living according to God's laws and his standards.

And when I was thinking about how Paul was instructing the believers in 1st Corinthians on how they're taking the Lord's Supper and even his warnings on not to take it in an unworthy manner. He says this is how why some of you have died like that I think is a much more faithfully interpreted theological parallel.

What we do in the church particularly as it pertains to the Lord's Supper and other things like that then applying it to our civil life in America today. Gonna respond there. Yeah. So you have 30 seconds and then I'm getting to the last.

I need your.

Phone number after this. So first off let me say I do not believe that America is in covenant with God by name. However I do believe that when Jesus said that all power and all authority in heaven and her earth are his I do believe America was part of that proclamation.

Okay. I also believe that in Romans 13 that God that our magistrates and our legislators are his ministers of justice and that they are to establish justice reward good and punish evil. Where if they're commanded to do that what standard of righteousness and wickedness what standard of right and wrong good and bad wicked and evil are we supposed to be holding them accountable to if not the Old Testament case studies given to us in the Old Testament.

That would be my question for folks to think on. Thank you.

Let me zoom out just a little bit. I have one question for each of you. I'll start with you Matt since you are involved particularly in a particular state here in South Carolina I want you to talk about local politics just a little bit.

And just how can Christians be effectively engaged in local politics. And by local politics I mean you know counties and state level. Yeah I would.

Say network in in those individual districts. Learn who your legislators are. Know who your house reps are. Know who your state senator is and not just that high level. Know who your county council members are.

Brother William mentioned earlier that there are different spheres of government that God has ordained and established. And I would agree I would add one more. We've got the home government. Right. We've got the Cleese.

I'm going church government. I'm not going to try you church government. And then we've got civil government. And I kind of view those things as checks and balances if you will. So you know if if I the Lord calls my wife to submit to me as to the Lord however is that unconditional submissal.

No it's not. And when I over stretch my hand in that authority that God's placed me in it is the duty of my pastors and elders to hold me accountable to the Word of God. When my pastors and my elders am I supposed to submit to them according to Scripture.

Absolutely I am. But if they tell me that I've got to give half my paycheck to them to go pay for their fancy car payment am I called to submit to them. Sure I am. But are there stipulations. Yes it's the Word and the Law of God.

And so the same thing goes for the civil government. They are his ministers and deacons of justice. Are we to submit to our local authorities and to our government. Yes we are. Unconditionally. No. They have standards.

They have guardrails they have parameters that our Holy God has placed over them. And when they over stretch those things just like in the civil just like in the church realm. And in the family realm.