February 7, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Justin Peters, Dr. James R. White, and Marcus Pittman

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February 10, 2020

February 7, 2020 Featuring Interviews from the 2020 G3 Conference with JUSTIN PETERS, evangelist, conference speaker & founder of Justin Peters Ministries, Dr. JAMES R. WHITE, co-founder of Alpha & Omega Ministries, AND MARCUS PITTMAN, Executive Producer & Show Runner at Apologia Studios, Creative Director at Crown Rights, & cinematographer, known for Next Week with Jeff Durbin, & How to Answer the Fool

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:11: Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors
00:23: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation
00:46: To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours
00:54: And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host
01:00: Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,
01:07: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming to iron sharpens iron radio .com
01:19: My name is Eric Nielsen I'm sitting in today for Chris as we have our third day of conference interviews
01:27: All three of these interviews today are from the recent g3 conference that was held this past January And we have interviews with Justin Peters Dr.
01:39: James R. White and Marcus Pittman just before the g3 conference this year
01:44: Chris held his biannual pastors luncheon and Justin Peters was the featured speaker at that pastors luncheon
01:52: The following week at g3 he stopped by the table and had this conversation with Chris Well, this is the final day of the g3 conference at the
02:03: Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia technically College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta And I'm here with my friend
02:12: Justin Peters of Justin Peters ministries. I just recently had the honor and privilege to have him speak a week ago at My iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon that was an overwhelming success
02:30: I think we may have had the largest crowd that we've ever had we had approximately 90 men there and it was just a joy and the men were riveted to everything
02:40: Justin had to say and I continue to get a stream of glowing reviews from the men that were attendants there at the
02:51: At the iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon, but I'm so thrilled that I have the double honor of being able to share fellowship with him again just a week later at the g3 conference and Justin it's a delight to have you back at iron sharpens iron radio
03:07: Chris. It's truly a privilege I enjoy every time I come on and I think the world of you and I appreciate what you're doing
03:13: And had a wonderful time last week as you said, so I thank you very much well
03:19: For those of you who don't know Justin or anything about his ministry that Justin was born with cerebral palsy and he has a
03:30: Mission in life first and foremost to declare the gospel of Jesus Christ that souls that lost souls might be led to eternal life and Also, obviously first and foremost to give praise honor and glory to God But one of the secondary
03:50: Reasons that Justin's ministry exists is to expose false teachers
03:57: Especially those who are involved in the word of faith movement or the health wealth and prosperity the gospel so -called
04:05: Movement because it is no gospel at all but Justin this obviously
04:14: Has Perhaps a deeper meaning exposing these false teachers as a deeper meaning to you having
04:21: Cerebral palsy, and I know that you had as a younger man Even sought the possible healing of some of these
04:29: So -called faith healers, huh? And that left you and obviously At least initially a deep a state of discouragement
04:39: Right, right it it did Chris back when I was a teenager and a neighbor of mine came up and said
04:47: God had spoken to him and told him that I was going to be healed As long as I have enough faith and I went to see some faith healers
04:55: Believing that I was going to be healed and obviously was not so that was my first exposure To the movement and as you said, it was very discouraging because I thought
05:05: I had you know There's a lack of faith on my part. Now. I know now that I wasn't even converted at that time, but But nonetheless that's kind of what began my that was what first exposed me to the movement began my interest in it and Some have made the accusation that the reason
05:25: I do these seminars now is because I'm bitter That I wasn't healed when I was a teenager, but I think
05:31: I can safely say that nothing could be further from the truth now that I have a right understanding of God's sovereignty and a right theology of suffering and God's providence and You know if I have to live the rest of my life with cerebral palsy, that's fine
05:53: I've got all of eternity to live without it. So you certainly don't carry yourself
05:58: As someone that is living a life of bitterness No When people meet you
06:05: I'm sure no one walks away Thinking in their head man that guy Justin's really got to let it go.
06:11: He's he's just eaten up with bitterness. I mean you have to be One of the most joyful people
06:18: I've ever met and very encouraging and humble people. I've ever met Oh, well,
06:23: I don't know if I deserve that but thank you Chris. Thank you, brother and One of the bizarre aspects of this movement is its claim that Christians can speak things into existence, right and Where did they even get that concept are they twisting the fact that Jesus Christ himself could feed
06:55: Huge crowds with you know, five loaves and fishes and so on or what was the The origins of that.
07:02: Yes the origins go back to a couple of guys the first one Phineas Parkhurst Quimby Was a guy back in the 1800s.
07:11: He was the father of the metaphysical cult known as new thought He he's the one that first began to articulate some of these doctrines and then after him
07:19: Essek W Kenyon picked up Expanded his teachings further and taught that we can literally speak things into existence
07:27: Just like God did and that it that's the doctrine known as positive confession and the word of faith movement
07:34: They they actually teach that our words Have within themselves inherent creative power and whatever we speak
07:42: We will bring to fruition. So if we speak positive things positive things will happen to us
07:50: Conversely if we speak negative things if we If they don't they say you shouldn't even say
07:56: I'm sick, even if you are sick Don't say it because that just entrenches the reality.
08:03: It makes it a reality your words are that inherently powerful and and This is of course right in line with with what
08:13: God himself and only God Can do speaking things into existence that is an
08:19: Ability and an attribute that resides solely with God, but they take it from God and ascribe it to man
08:28: Which is also in congruence with their little gods doctrine They teach that we are in fact little gods if you're a
08:36: Christian you are a little God Bill Johnson the leader of Bethel Church pastor
08:42: Bethel Church Bethel music, he says that Jesus was the most normal Christian who ever lived
08:51: Literally, that's a direct quote. And so if you're a Christian if you're a Christian, you're just like Jesus You have all the rights all the privileges
08:59: You should never be sick speak things into existence and it it truly is they they blur that line between God the
09:06: Creator and us is Created they demote God and deify man
09:13: And I don't know if you know the exact quote, but I can remember hearing a sermon so called by Kenneth Copeland where he took that to its logical conclusion and Insinuated that he could have died for the sins of the world himself.
09:32: Do you remember that quote? Oh, yeah Not only did did he say that he actually claims that Jesus told him that that's right.
09:41: Yeah, that's right So he he compounds error with with more error exponentially so he says that that Jesus came to him in a prophetic vision and said
09:54: Well Kenneth Copeland and Jesus were having conversation Kenneth Copeland said to Jesus he said now wait a minute
09:59: You don't mean that that I could have done the same thing. Do you meaning the tone for sins and in Jesus?
10:05: Quote unquote said to Kenneth Copeland. Oh, yes you could have done the same thing if you had only had the the knowledge of God that I did because you're a reborn man, too, and so So Kenneth Copeland could have atoned for sins if he had just known
10:22: God's Word as well as Christ Right and you said something very significant there Jesus said
10:29: Allegedly to Kenneth Copeland. You're a reborn man to yeah,
10:34: Jesus Christ according to this I don't even know what
10:40: I didn't even know what adjective to use to describe this this horrific evil hellish teaching but Jesus was the first born -again man who
10:55: Became born again in hell after being tortured by the devil and his demons.
11:01: Yes That's right that that is what they call the spiritual death of Jesus spiritual death of Jesus doctrine
11:08: They do not believe that Jesus atoned for our sins fully on the cross
11:14: They believe that when Jesus died on the cross the work was not Completed it had just begun when
11:21: Jesus died on the cross then he went to hell this now this comes from Essek W Kenyon he
11:26: Essek W Kenyon wrote a book entitled from the cross to the throne and When Jesus died on the cross then he went to hell
11:34: Suffered was tortured by demons died a spiritual death ceased to be
11:40: God and had to be reborn that Jesus actually had to get saved and That is where the atonement of our sins according to them took place not on the cross
11:50: But down in hell and this is a standard doctrine today in the word faith movement you apostolic
11:55: Reformation Bill Johnson, for example, has said he said and I have this on audio
12:01: We don't have it where we could pull it up right now, but he says to his congregation He said did you know that Jesus was born again?
12:10: Said yes, he was he was born again born again, man And so I mean, it's utterly utterly blasphemy blasphemous
12:18: Chris It's a they have a different God a different Jesus a different atonement a different gospel
12:24: So basically you are saying this is not Christianity this no, especially when you're talking about a
12:33: Leader or somebody who fully understands what they teach For people to receive this as truth and teach it themselves
12:45: We cannot look at them as brothers in Christ. That's right. That's right. No, we can't it is that severe is that so?
12:52: Yeah, we're not talking here about Who you think wrote the book of Hebrews or the date of the
12:58: Exodus or something like that? You know where these issues go to the heart of the gospel what one believes about Jesus Christ will determine where one spends eternity
13:06: They have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible and I tell people a lot in my teaching it's not enough to just believe in Jesus Mormons believe in Jesus Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus Muslims believe in Jesus You've got to believe in the right
13:25: Jesus. You've got to believe in the Jesus of the Bible and Their Jesus is just as much a different Jesus as was as is the
13:33: Jesus of Mormonism or Islam It's a different gospel. Yeah, and it seems
13:42: Very clear that there are similarities to the occult Yes, their theology and philosophy and practice
13:50: Absolutely, which which it which It makes perfect sense when
13:55: I hear the reports of people like dr. Conrad and Bayway of Cobata Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia Africa who is also the chancellor of the
14:04: African Christian University although he Recently received a new role there. I believe so he can actively teach which chancellors typically don't do
14:14: But I've known dr. Bayway since 1995 and the privilege of calling him a dear friend
14:22: The church where I was a member on Long Island before relocating to Pennsylvania Grace Reform Baptist Church of Merrick Long Island, New York.
14:30: That was the very first American church where Conrad preached about that and but he has given these horrific reports about the word of faith teachers there and A Barely distinguishable from which doctors that's right.
14:50: Yep Same thing. In fact, I was I don't know if you know that I was with Conrad last month.
14:55: No, I didn't know yeah, I went to Zambia in December and Had a wonderful wonderful time there.
15:02: I was in Kittway For a week -long conference and Conrad was one of the speakers there
15:08: So he and I were speaking together at this conference with some other speakers as well Had a wonderful time and then
15:13: I was Conrad drove me down to Lusaka and We I preached at his church.
15:20: We spent the weekend together and what a good brother. I mean just a dear dear brother
15:26: He's the real deal. Oh, yeah, and I have often Repeated on my show that I believe he is the greatest living preacher on the planet
15:33: Earth Yeah Case could be made for that Yeah, I've already referred to as the
15:40: Spurgeon of Africa, but you know, we've got a lot of good faithful men out there and Conrad is certainly one of them now.
15:51: I Think that we have to be careful not to broad brush all
15:58: Pentecostals and charismatics in this group. I believe that they are all in error on the sign gifts issue
16:04: But there is a obviously a wide spectrum of understanding even of the sign gifts amongst those especially in the charismatic movement because Pentecostal denominations typically have a more historically defined
16:19: Theology when I say historically, I mean historically according to Pentecostal ism. Yeah That involves what they teach about the sign gifts and so on But you know in the charismatic movement you have a broader spectrum of all the way to the totally insane and dark and dangerous, but you have also
16:46: Brethren in Christ that believe nearly identically as you and I except that they believe that the sign gifts are possible and they believe that They have not been convinced through scripture that there are texts that clearly teach a
17:08: Abolishing of the sign gifts and so on. So even though we disagree, don't you think that we have to be careful not to broad brush these folks who
17:19: I would call brethren With these more sinister aspects of what would be called charismatic behavior and teaching
17:27: Yeah, Chris, and and that is a distinction that I often make in my teaching that the the question between cessationism and continuism or continuationism, you know as cessationists you and I believe in the gifts of teaching and mercy and administration and exhortation and Giving and hospitality those gifts are very much in operation we would just say that the apostolic gifts the sign gifts are no longer in operation the gift of tongues or languages and interpretation of languages two separate gifts gift of miracles gift of healing are no longer operative because those were
18:04: Apostolic gifts and there are no more Apostles today So those gifts are no longer operative and I think of an overwhelming case can be made from scripture
18:15: Not necessarily that there's a verse that says these gifts ceased on this date But you just look at the compendium of what scripture teaches
18:22: New Testament and you see the progression Chronological progression even through the New Testament you see those gifts fading away.
18:29: But So this is a very very very important issue
18:35: It is not though as you said, it's not an inherently salvific issue
18:40: There are genuine believers who who would believe that those gifts still continue So we're not saying that that if you're a charismatic you're you're lost
18:50: So but there and and I know some charismatics continuous that Rail against the
18:58: Word of Faith. Yes, and the New Apostolic Reformation so But I do think it is a very very important issue because of the ripple effects
19:07: It's a it's a very slippery slope to be real honest. It's a very slippery slope from the continuous position
19:14: Right in the Benny Hinn land, right and it's also a slippery slope Into a denial of the sufficiency of scripture it.
19:23: Yeah, and and I would say the position itself necessitates a
19:29: Denial of sufficiency of scripture if you hold to the continuous position
19:34: You you cannot in you know with a logical consistency Also hold to the sufficiency of scripture because they're mutually
19:43: Exclusive positions are muted. They're contradictory positions. So now I'd like you to give a word of Comfort and encouragement to listeners who are
19:57: Suffering with illnesses of all kinds they may be Wrongfully Convinced that they are displeasing to God they are unfaithful and It may be that they are racking their brains trying to think of this
20:21: Unconfessed sin that is the reason that they are in a hospital bed
20:27: Perhaps even with IV tubes hooked up to them breathing apparatus and so on Or whatever the case may be now we are all sinners, that's for sure, right
20:41: And I do believe as we have even discussed I believe I actually brought it up in the
20:48: Q &A session when you were conducting the pastor's luncheon there are cases where God chastises
20:58: Those who he loves sure with illness or what have you because they are being disobedient in some way
21:05: And it's a wake -up call to them perhaps and we even have the example in Scripture of people approaching the
21:12: Lord's table in an unworthy manner and some of them were sick and even died because of that right but that should not be the the
21:22: Absolute and final conclusion that every sick person draws. Maybe it should be an initial thing that causes them to search their hearts
21:31: But it shouldn't be something that rests there and remains there this this
21:37: Haunting fear that could just paralyze someone in depression and so on.
21:43: Yes, that's right That's right, Chris the fact of the matter is we live in a fallen world and one of the consequences of living in a fallen world the fallen state of humanity is that we get sick and we have disabilities and You know cancer arthritis multiple sclerosis, whatever your head cold and next time you catch a cold.
22:01: It's because we live in a fallen world and so And also aging the reason we age is because we live in a fallen world
22:10: And I'm kind of amused when I hear these prosperity preachers teach that you should always be Healed because we've been completely delivered from the effects of the curse and yet, you know
22:20: You can look at videos of Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland or fill in the blank year by year and guess what every year?
22:26: They look a little bit older than they did the year before and it's because this fallen world is taking its toll on their bodies
22:32: Same reason we get sick But look through the Bible. This is where I always take people to scripture look through the
22:39: Bible There are many examples of faithful servants of God Who were sick?
22:46: Moses God said to Moses who has made man's mouth who makes him dumb or deaf or seeing or blind is it not?
22:52: I the Lord Elisha 2nd Kings 13 died of an illness and yet he had a double portion anointing of the great prophet
23:01: Elijah And yet he died of a sickness Paul take a little wine for your stomach and your frequent ailments
23:08: He wrote to Timothy and Paul himself Had a bodily illness and I don't even take people to the thorn in the flesh because I don't
23:16: I'm not convinced That was a bodily illness go to Galatians chapter 4 verse 13 Paul said
23:21: You know that it was because of a bodily illness that I came and preached the gospel to you the first time and that which
23:28: Was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe But you received me as an angel of God even as Christ Jesus himself
23:34: So here's the man who wrote roughly a third of the New Testament And he was sick
23:42: What do you do with that did Paul not have enough faith to be healed he wrote a third of the New Testament So you're in good company dear brother dear sister in Christ If you are sick many of the
23:56: Bible's most faithful servants of God were sick, so We should expect this and I have no problem at all with praying for someone who is sick to recover
24:06: Praying that God would heal that person that is perfectly fine And on occasion, but only when it's his sovereign will to do so God does heal people
24:17: Quite honestly it's more the exception than the rule It's not a common thing on occasion though. He does, but if God does not bring healing he promises something far better He promises that his grace will be sufficient
24:31: His strength will be made perfect in our weaknesses first Peter chapter 5 verse 7
24:38: Peter says Cast all your anxieties upon him because he cares for you
24:47: He care and literally in the Greek Chris He cares for you that phrase the the literal rendering of that is it matters to him about you it matters to him about you that is an
25:01: That is just a an overwhelming thought when you think that the one who spoke the universe into existence creates
25:09: Everything and holds every molecule and all the universe and it's appointed place It matters to him about you, whatever it is that you're going through it matters to him and So Selah, you know
25:22: God he is a God who is near. He he understands our pain and our struggles and He never leaves us never forsakes us and in the midst of our suffering in the midst of our trial sickness disease
25:36: Whatever it is the greatest desire that we should have for our lives is to carry the name of Christ well
25:43: Lord use this Sickness to conform me more into the image of your son and may
25:50: I carry your name? Well through the sickness through the trials may I glorify Christ?
25:55: That's that's what we should really be praying for Amen, well brother is always a pleasure to have you on our sharpens.
26:04: I'm radio I look forward to your return for another two -hour interview during one of our live broadcasts
26:10: But you have certainly made this experience of being here at g3 a richer one for me due to your fellowship and just your constant
26:21: Being a constant source of encouragement. Thank you. Chris. Likewise, brother Thank you so much and justinpeters .org
26:27: is the website correct justinpeters .org Great. God bless you too. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Justin Peters at this time
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31:31: I'm Eric Nielsen and we are listening to interviews from the 2020 g3 conference this year at the g3 conference.
31:40: Dr. James White did not have a booth with Alpha and Omega ministries instead
31:46: He was visiting a number of booths at the g3 conference and he stopped by the iron sharpens iron radio booth
31:54: Here's the conversation that Chris had with James White. Well, here I am at the fourth
32:00: G3 conference that I've attended manning an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio here in Atlanta, Georgia at the
32:07: Georgia International Convention Center and I am here live on site with dr. James R White of Alpha and Omega ministries one of my favorite guests on iron sharpens iron radio, and he is wearing
32:19: Wearing it. He's waving at everybody going by because he knows everyone here. It's really weird And he's wearing probably the coolest cross necklace.
32:28: I've ever seen in my life. You know where I bought that I bought that on the Navajo reservation in northern,
32:34: Arizona When I was driving back and forth between the Colorado of Colorado, I stopped I saw it and I was like, oh man
32:40: I really really want that but I didn't get it drove up two miles down the road Bang to you.
32:45: He went back and got it because it was so unique. Yeah, I mean it just it just glows I've just never seen anything that catches the light as as beautifully as that one does.
32:53: Very nice. Yeah, I love Navajo stuff I mean they make beautiful pottery and stuff like that They're a neat people and it's just sort of sad to see what's happened to them in in,
33:04: Arizona It's it we could get into it. But when the government tries to provide for you, it's gonna screw up, right?
33:11: It's gonna screw up badly and create all sorts of problems in the process. So anyway, well
33:17: Why don't you tell our listeners some of the most pressing issues today that face
33:23: Alpha Omega Ministries you are on the front lines of so many battles it seems and christened them today and perhaps even go through a progression of though those things that were primary in your focus when you started
33:39: Alpha Omega Ministries and Lead us up until the present day. Well, you know it has changed
33:45: So rapidly and so so quickly the foundations haven't but you know
33:51: When when we first started doing stuff on on Long Island The the battles were a little bit more easily defined.
33:59: You had your liberalism you had you know, we were doing debates on Roman Catholicism and and Finally did our first debate on Islam there on Long Island, even though I don't consider that my first Islamic debate
34:14: Because I hadn't started studying Islam yet. You were defending the deity of Christ against a fellow who would eventually leave
34:23: Orthodox Islam anyways, which was which is rather interesting and that's where we got the messing with the
34:28: Philippians defense Which we had never heard of before and I I know I've told you Chris, but over the years
34:33: I I play Some of the audience Q &A from that what was the name of the church that was at the time it was the
34:45: Bible Baptist Church of Syosset yes. Yes. Yes. They've since changed the name and it's a totally different kind of church, right right, but The People that recorded it were from their side
35:01: If you remember that yeah, and it was rather interesting how they did things they didn't really mind whether the audience was was interrupted by what they were doing or not and So the angle of one of the cameras had you and my wife and my daughter so you could see me and Hamza Abdul Malik and the moderator and then you're here then
35:24: Kelly's here and then Summer's here and so I love pointing out to people that you know
35:29: There's my nine -year -old daughter listening as this whole long line of Muslims are asking her dad these questions about the
35:35: Bible and the deity of Christ like that and That was those questions were amazing
35:41: I Now in hindsight, it's like well duh But at the time it was like oh my this is going to be really really interesting
35:50: So the fig tree did you think that he'd you think that he that's right? So back then
35:58: Things were not nearly as complicated You hardly had any Conflicts with those that would profess to be reformed back then
36:06: Yep, yep, or even even with the Calvinism issue at least there was much more unity there's been much more fracturing and part of it is because of Well critical theory divides it's what it's meant to do
36:23: I was actually sitting at dinner last night with a very well -known
36:30: Atheist who if I mentioned him you'd go. Oh, yeah, I know exactly who it is who is an expert on critical theory and what it's doing to our society and No matter which direction you pushed the the other side was always
36:47: Seeking to fracture and divide and well, that's what critical theory does it breaks things down and how effectively they're doing it within even within The Academy not even including
36:59: Christians and things like that that's coming into the church and and the result is a
37:05: Is the divisions that we see now to where it seems like there's no one front that we're battling on anymore
37:13: It seems like we're surrounded by the enemy and the in the fire is coming from every which direction So it's it's sort of nice when you can come to some place and find a lot of folks that are pulling the same direction even though We all sort of realize wow things have gotten much more complicated
37:33: But it's nice to see I mean, you know, you know, I've been here for I think this is the fourth year I've spoken here, too and It's nice to see that.
37:42: It's flourishing. It's nice to see Folks that we've we've known and helped get started and things like that and see old friends
37:51: But you also see friends that are now getting old You know, we've been you and I've been at this a long long long time you you're looking pretty pretty gray in the gel
38:03: I Mean look look at this white beard, man
38:10: I mean, I mean, I just wish the whole thing would go that way I would look so much cooler if I had a completely white beard
38:15: I really think there's also stuff you can buy to darken it, but you ever tried to find something to lighten it
38:23: So when you started alpha to make it ministries if I can remember correctly which would have been in the 70s
38:29: Oh goodness. No, we started in October of 1983. Okay. Well, it wasn't that far off.
38:35: Yeah And it was primarily Mormonism that yes You were you were Mormonism first Jehovah's Witnesses came pretty fast after that if you're gonna be talking about Mormonism Then everybody's to be asking about the witnesses and then a friend of mine who was part of the church at the time
38:49: Who has since passed away? Was a former Roman Catholic and he started pushing me on that issue and You ought to be awfully glad for that because if he hadn't
39:02: You never would have called me that day and gotten such the warm brotherly welcome that you did But yeah, he he pressed me on that issue was saying hey if you're talking to the
39:14: Mormons about this If you're talking to Jehovah's Witnesses about this Then you need to look at what
39:19: Rome is saying about the gospel and stuff like that And as you pointed out in the first debate, that's just that's just how in your introductions first debate
39:26: That's just that's how to really make yourself popular Is to is to address especially the subject of Roman Catholicism But then
39:33: I wanted to become even less popular later on and so I started addressing Islam That pretty well that pretty well covers the gamut and ironically some of your harshest critics when entering into the arena with Muslims have not been
39:50: Muslims, but fellow Christians and even reformed Christian. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, there's
39:56: And ironically, it's not because of what I'm saying to the Muslims, I mean they rarely are arguing that I'm not
40:03: Presenting the Trinity correctly or the gospel correctly It's the it's the idea of showing respect to Muslims as fellow image bearers
40:11: Which you would think their theology would demand of them, but there is a such a strong Antipathy that many people have that comes especially from political perspectives
40:24: That it overwhelms what should be their standard Christian understanding that this is an image bearer of God I I see tremendously strong parallels between modern ministry to Muslims and the ministry to Jews in the first century church because They have very many parallel beliefs
40:45: Very few of them have read the New Testament. They have a very shallow understanding of who Jesus is but there's all sorts of cultural barriers that get in the way and If Paul could love the the
41:00: Jews enough to give himself for them You would think that we would naturally go that direction ourselves, but we don't so it's really primarily the conflict over the way you approach
41:11: Some of your interaction with Muslims not all some of them have been straightforward debates, right?
41:17: But when you have dialogues, right? people have viewed them as Being too soft and friendly compromised.
41:25: Yeah. Yeah, and I have said to some of your critics if you had a
41:31: Muslim neighbor, right? And the Muslim neighbor invited you over their home for a meal to discuss religion.
41:40: Would you go and they said of course And then you go over that person's home and you're having this interaction in a relaxed atmosphere over refreshments or something
41:51: Would it be wrong to ask could we do this is so fascinating could we like film this or record this and if the
41:58: Muslim agrees so you're saying that it would be inappropriate to show this film or the air these recordings to people and It's not just that The other element was that in the specific dialogue, which we're going to be doing another one.
42:13: We're working on setting it up right now But in that specific dialogue, which was with dr.
42:18: Yasir Qadhi Dr. Qadhi is one of the leading Muslim scholars in the United States And I said in that in our in the first night that I had learned a great deal from him
42:30: Right because I had he had sent me a 16 CD series called light and guidance. I had listened to it multiple times
42:36: I had corresponded with him asked him questions That's what opened up this dialogue was he himself said when he introduced me to his
42:43: He was the imam of a mosque in Memphis. He introduced me to the to the mosque and he said I Shabir Ali asked me to send
42:51: My CDs I did I figured they just sit on a shelf someplace instead a few weeks later
42:57: I start getting emails from this guy and he's asking me questions about what I said he's using
43:03: Arabic and showing more interest in what I said than most of my own students Wow and that's what led to this and What that what's frightening is
43:15: The idea amongst many Christians is the only way that you should learn about Islam is from another
43:21: Christian when the reality is You know my entire
43:28: Ministry if when I stayed Mormonism, where'd I go? I went to the Mormons It doesn't mean
43:33: I ignored Christians who had studied it before. I'm not sitting there going. I'm the only one could ever forget this out No, I was
43:39: I benefited from Bill Webster and people that have done work before me, but you don't just stop there and What has helped me the most has been listening for example to Muslims talking to Muslims Because you really want to know where someone's coming from We realized if they wanted to know where Reformed Baptist were coming from then there's a bunch of people
44:00: I could recommend Listening to their sermons. It's gonna give you a really good idea Reformed Baptist talking to Reformed Baptist at least they're gonna be able to accurately represent
44:09: Well that idea of accurately representing unfortunately is not a high priority for many of my fellow
44:15: Christians But the very fact that I showed Dr. Cotty respect as a scholar as a fellow human being you're not allowed to do that he's a bad man because this that the other thing and that's really where the issue was is
44:32: You're compromising because you're showing respect You know, so when Paul shows respect to the high priest right away,
44:38: I guess he was compromising as well He wasn't and so It opens up.
44:45: I was just I was just talking to someone. I was just doing meet -and -greet for like four hours and One of the ladies that came through is gonna be going and doing some
44:55: Ministry amongst Muslim women in Africa, you know rather challenging area
45:01: And one of the things I said to her was, you know, she's like, how do you how do you get the door open? how do you and The things
45:07: I suggested to her was showing them the respect of knowing what they believe Learning some of the
45:13: Hadith that's that for me is open doors for so many Muslims So I narrated some of their own favorite stories that their own imams tell them and it's like you're a
45:22: Christian And you know what we believe about this all sudden. Boom. It's like you kick the door open You can go straight into the gospel
45:29: I mean, it's it it's almost one of the easiest things you could possibly ever do. We don't want to do it Because we're afraid or because we have some type of fundamental prejudice
45:40: And that's what got me into trouble and I'm gonna do it again because that that's kind of trouble I will I will get into and does that mean doors have closed to me?
45:48: Yep If that's what it takes fun You know, we're both getting old enough that I don't care too much anymore
45:57: I Think I mean seriously if after almost I'm at a hundred and seventy four moderated public debates now
46:03: Thanks a lot to you and you and between you and Michael Fallon, that's who knows how many of those that that adds up to but I've done this enough long enough to go you know what
46:17: I I think I know how to how to make this happen and I'm I'm tired or worried about Okay, so a door gets closed to me there'll be other doors it'll open whatever
46:28: So to in the present day What would you say is the greatest conflict you and alpha to make in ministries is facing in?
46:38: The body of Christ and in the world at large How to explain my many appearances in iron sharpens iron
46:50: Greatest embarrassment I'm just trying to keep you awake Chris. I'm just trying to Chris is
46:57: Chris is tired today. So am I but Sadly I'll have to admit
47:08: Given the preeminence of Western culture in the world You know, even as I've now started traveling so much more overseas.
47:16: I mean you knew me long before I'd ever I mean We were sort of wrapping up the great debate series right as I started going to England for the first time in 2005 and That wasn't because you and I got tired of each other which we ran we ran out of Roman Catholics They were willing to actually engage in a meaningful debate
47:34: I know the I know a guy named Carl and janitorial supply over at Sears who's a
47:39: Catholic who says he wants to debate That's what we were ending up running into but Worldwide, I wish
47:48: I could have this nice big worldwide perspective and I and I do in one sense But we export our garbage to the rest of the world and I'm seeing the type of negative impact.
47:57: It's having around the world. And so I I guess you know, I don't want to sound like a
48:05: Scare monger or something, but it does seem to me that the rapid infiltration of critical theory in all of its forms
48:14: I Was talking to students from Southern Baptist seminaries here within the past couple of hours
48:22: Who testified of the deep impact that social justice perspectives critical race theory?
48:29: All the critical theories critical gender theory is having within there was pastor Andy Woodard one of them
48:35: Not that I know. Okay. He's the pastor of New Covenant Baptist Church, NYC in Manhattan And he's the only at least according to his knowledge of the churches in that huge city
48:46: But he is the only reformed church that is has not caved in to the woke
48:54: Yeah, yeah, I I just see that as probably the most effective mechanism that the enemy is ever devised to fundamentally divide and conquer
49:08: And it's going to result in a reorientation of Denominational lines and and everything else you can see with the
49:16: United Methodist And what's happened with them? You know they stood firm because of the
49:21: African United Methodist and now they've basically separated from them And so now you have new denominations divide divide divide.
49:29: That's what that's what critical theory is all about divide divide divide and so eventually You're gonna come under pressure
49:37: To raise your intersectionality score because we all know that your colorblindness
49:43: Results in you being persecuted by people like myself who cannot help but laugh at your tie choices and so You're gonna be you'll be convinced that this is a part of your identity and therefore you must divide
49:57: I mean that sounds funny, but unfortunately when you really start listening to what's happening with intersectionality, so it's not all that funny
50:04: It's too close. It's Babylon be close to the truth and So I I really do see that as as What's gonna be the biggest?
50:17: Challenge because when when those seminaries either become completely woke Then they will break free of their confessional moorings
50:26: And they'll be moving same direction that Union did but Union did it 130 years ago now
50:32: You used as a joke at my expense my literal Colorblindness, yes, but isn't it ironic that?
50:41: Well, you're a victim Right you're a victim. That's that gives you intersectionality score right, but what
50:46: I was going to say is isn't it ironic that? Having been raised in the late 60s and 70s those that were most publicly conscience conscious
51:01: Over bigotry and things like that racial discrimination Would claim to be colorblind right and they would say that is the way we should live our lives
51:12: We're not supposed to be even Martin Luther King jr.'s Famous speech that said that we are not to judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character
51:22: That seems to have reversed it has and it almost seems when you hear these
51:28: Progressive Christians quote -quote Christians who are champions of the critical race theory sometimes you're shaking your head and scratching your head and having to listen more intently because you almost think that you're
51:42: Listening to somebody reading from the Ku Klux Klan manual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's critical theory not only
51:50: Reverses the polarities of everything it's done it so quickly It could and it could only be succeeding the way it is because of the takeover of public education
52:00: The wall may have fallen Chris, but we had already lost that war Their shock troops had already invaded our universities in the 1940s and 50s
52:08: So it didn't matter the wall was an expensive thing that wasn't needed anymore. They had already succeeded in their invasion
52:15: That's what that's what that's where I'm coming from anymore and looking at that because you and I were around we're like yay
52:21: That's awesome End of the Soviet Union 1991. This is awesome. This is great
52:27: It was it was too expensive to keep propping it up because there wasn't any reason to do it They had already infiltrated the universities.
52:35: They were already well into creating the people that are now When you see that the z -gen
52:42: Z generation its view of communism is higher and higher and higher
52:48: In hindsight we see what happened we didn't know at the time you and I are fat dumb and happy, you know, we just figured hey communism's done
52:58: Bush Reagan rah -rah Didn't see it Didn't see it hindsight. It's a wonderful thing.
53:04: But sometimes it's depressing. We have to interrupt this interview to go to our midway break Please take the time to listen to what our sponsors have to offer
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01:06:04: I'm Eric Nielsen and this is our second hour of interviews from this year's
01:06:11: G3 conference in January in just a moment. We'll return to the interview with.
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01:08:10: Now, let's return to the interview with dr. James White now when I have conversations with people in the broad spectrum of professed
01:08:19: Christianity that I do There seems to be a Running thread
01:08:28: Throughout if even if you want to include Independent fundamentalism if you want to include critical race theory and even if you want to include churches that would fall among very confessionally sound reformed churches
01:08:48: There is a fear of what those whose opinion you care about Will think of you if you depart from a certain train of thought
01:09:01: The fear of what kind of negative impact will fall upon you if you follow a different thread that you believe to be biblical
01:09:11: There are people I know who do not believe in their heart of hearts and the critical race theory woke movement stuff, but they are afraid of the the punishment they will receive from departing of it the same with my fundamentalist friends there was always a a a contest who could be more fundamentalist than the next guy and there was a underlying fear of what
01:09:33: Their friends would think if they actually started to take more seriously reformed theology or so and even amongst reformed people
01:09:40: That are solid and I would not have any complaints with the preaching and the teaching or the confessional statement or anything like that, but there is an underlying fear of exploring something that they haven't thought of because of a fear of What those that they have most close association with will think now
01:10:00: I understand There's a balance to be had because there should be a red light going on if everybody that you know and respect is saying wow
01:10:07: That's that's off base. That's weird, but how do you how do you mesh that or how do you balance that with being a
01:10:13: Berean? Yeah, that that balance is extremely difficult to maintain and on the one if it is a fear based
01:10:23: Hesitation Then that's probably problematic So in other words in fundamentalism the fear is of anything.
01:10:31: It does not look like us and think like us but that that comes out of let's just be honest a an in -depth recognition that I Can't interact these other perspectives.
01:10:42: I've never I don't understand them I only say they're wrong because that's what my tradition and they don't use the term tradition
01:10:49: But they understand what it means that that's a that's a extremely negative way
01:10:56: But on the other side The idea of having of getting of the emergent church and reinventing everything with the every generation is the other is the other side of the pitfall so staying in the middle requires you you know
01:11:12: I Sort of got my education in this by going to fuller because Everybody there was to my left
01:11:23: But I learned that there were a lot of really smart people over there that had thought a lot of things through had a lot of great facts, and I learned to Hold on to the gems and let go of the the rocks and I learned to Filter things appropriately without giving up the foundations upon upon which my faith had been built
01:11:45: That takes a lot of maturity that takes time it takes work it takes effort and unfortunately, there's just not a lot of people that These days want to necessarily invest that kind of effort, but we've never needed it more because as We as Christians are forced into a smaller and smaller bit of acreage in the social
01:12:08: Area we're gonna be running into Viewpoints other than our own more and more often and the temptation either is to just Respond with a right hook to the to the nose of somebody else or to give up your confessional boundaries and just become marshmallow bits of nothing and Keeping that balance is one of the greatest challenges.
01:12:32: I think that we have and I don't want to Overlook something that will be the topic of our next two -hour interview that we have scheduled and just a couple of weeks whether that Whether this interview airs before that or after I'm not sure because this is a this is going to be a pre -recorded right interview since we're conducting it on site at the g3 conference, but there is a
01:13:00: I don't know if you want to say a rise or a resurgence of Of professed
01:13:07: Calvinists Which would even include people who no longer use?
01:13:13: The word or the the label Calvinist because they no longer believe Calvin is amongst the number of the saved but you have those people that believe so intensely in what we have called tulip the five points of the doctrines of grace, etc they have
01:13:37: Come to believe that if you do not embrace those five points that you have a false gospel entirely and that you are not a
01:13:49: Christian and If you are professedly reformed and think that Armenians or others outside of the reformed camp
01:13:58: Can be saved you are also? Numbered amongst the damned From your knowledge of church history was this something that was prevalent and thought in the days of Calvin and The no no definitely not it certainly does not represent
01:14:19: Calvin's heart and his ability to work together with and appreciate
01:14:27: Zwingli or Luther or Melanchthon or many others But it has reared its head in second and third generations
01:14:39: Not to the shallow level that that we see today There is an a historical element to what we're seeing today that the people that are promoting this doctrinal perfectionism are are not really connected to any in any meaningful fashion to even the second and third generations as far as The Reformed Orthodox Francis turrets and people like that But there is a strong tendency
01:15:08: Toward this let's just be honest knowledge puffs up And if you believe that you have come to understand something the people around you just haven't been well
01:15:19: If you if you're truly reformed have been blessed by God To understand it can still end up puffing you up.
01:15:26: You've been chosen by God to have this knowledge and I've run into many people in that movement who do fundamentally say that they were not saved until they came to this this understanding
01:15:38: So they are willing to actually sacrifice All their previous
01:15:45: Christian experience as being unregenerate So as to say it wasn't until I understood all these interrelated realities you know, so I Believe firmly in particular redemption.
01:16:00: I really do but I was a Christian before I came to understand particular redemption and I was a
01:16:08: Christian when I came as a very very very very young child came to understand the most rudimentary understanding of substitutionary atonement that Jesus Took my punishment upon himself.
01:16:19: He took my spanking as a child. That's that's about as far as I could understand that These Individuals are basically saying until you can see all the interrelated sort of like until you can you can understand perichoresis, which is the interpenetration and relationship the divine persons in the eternal
01:16:40: Trinity In on light and in light of the opera ad intra that you're not truly a
01:16:46: Christian Well, if that's the case Christ did not build his church because there's basically nobody been in it for a long long time
01:16:52: Because the vast majority of Christians have no idea what I was just talking about So yeah, it's um it and it always ends up becoming more and more and more narrow Because you can always find something in someone else where they do not understand something you think you understand
01:17:11: And so eventually these people end up standing on one toe And drawing the circle around their big toe and that's the realm of the elect and that's a sad thing
01:17:22: So they would say if you have an Arminian or non reformed
01:17:28: Friend who is a professing Christian? Who says to you when you ask them?
01:17:34: Why do you believe you are going to heaven? they say because I have put my trust in the perfect life
01:17:43: The sinless life the atoning death and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ The Son of God the second person of the
01:17:52: Trinity That is where I put my hope and trust and I know I'm going to heaven only because of that not because of anything that I have done
01:18:00: They will still say to know that person is Dan unless they believe in unconditional election because they're not really telling the truth
01:18:06: Because if they were fully consistent, then they would see all these connections that that are appropriate connections
01:18:15: But I would say their connections that come with maturity and sanctification Yeah, because there is as you
01:18:22: Hinted there is a truth in the fact that Arminians and non -reformed Christians are not logically consistent, but you've heard me call it the blessed inconsistency, right?
01:18:32: I call it the book and I think I stole that from RC if I recall correctly I think he referred to the blessed inconsistency of Arminians because If you take
01:18:43: Arminianism to its ultimate end it becomes a a man -centered Perspective there's no question about it.
01:18:49: I'm just so thankful that the vast majority of Arminians. I know don't take it to its logical end
01:18:56: They they can't because grace doesn't allow them to and you you would have to wonder
01:19:03: What many of these people would think or say if you asked them the question? Are you still a
01:19:10: Berean and do you believe that there is anything right profound?
01:19:16: That will Revolutionize your thinking today that you have not yet learned from the
01:19:23: Bible and Why would you think you're saved now knowing that there could be something that you haven't learned yet?
01:19:29: That is connected to all these wonderful. There is an astonishing level I'll just be honest with an astonishing level of arrogance in the system.
01:19:37: There really is And I I I would like to hope being a person who has led many people into the
01:19:45: Reformed faith that I didn't do so in such a way as to Exacerbate Increase that tribe in any way.
01:19:54: I would hope that I have always emphasized the centrality of grace and That it's it's only the
01:20:01: Spirit of God opening your heart in your mind and giving you the grace to Quell rebellion in your heart to believe any of these things in the first place.
01:20:10: Well, perhaps on another Opposite end of the spectrum It has disturbed me
01:20:18: And I have conducted many interviews with reformed people perhaps predominantly
01:20:24: Reformed people on an iron sharpens iron radio, but it disturbs me how frequently
01:20:30: I wind up having to Do damage control By giving a caveat after something.
01:20:38: My guest will say That is I've heard you had to do three or four programs after having me on every time
01:20:46: But this would be in particular when I was boring Chris remember when I would never have even thought to try to make you laugh
01:20:52: Yes, I do remember You ruined me Yes For those of you don't know.
01:21:01: I am the one who has the Honorable reputation of having given James White a gift
01:21:10: And I had to have a sense of humor to recover from every one of your your debate introductions All the way through the infant baptism debate when
01:21:18: I still love watching that one You go wandering back to the back to the baptistry And going hey look at this.
01:21:26: It's a kiddie pool Yeah, right in front of Bill Shishko the Presbyterian debater who wanted to throw you in headfirst
01:21:35: But by the way that entire that entire bit except for the true story of being a manning the book table
01:21:42: Everything else was totally ad -lib well of course of course not but your your intro for the first debate was not
01:21:51: Well right I was just speaking about right right right, but but you you had worked on that Oh, yeah on that first one especially the letter that ended up coming from your
01:22:02: And and and grab some milk and I'm sorry. I I completely threw you off there, but that's that's that's okay.
01:22:10: Yeah Hey, you're the guy took me up in the Twin Towers. Just not very long before About a year obviously you just missed by a little bit yes in fact
01:22:21: I even remember Saying to myself there was no way this building could fall
01:22:27: I remember thinking that when I was up in the the observation area, but what I was gonna say is the
01:22:35: The The frequency with which I discover reforms people
01:22:41: Who I uphold as heroes whose books I have loved to read whose sermons.
01:22:46: I've loved to hear Who are very very soft on Rome? who have an ecumenical understanding of Roman Catholics, and I have had to on the air because you know
01:23:00: I don't want people to be misled thinking. I agree with this because it's a very deeply rooted
01:23:07: Opposition I have to Roman Catholicism especially having been raised Roman Catholic and having loved ones
01:23:13: Who are still Roman Catholic and who have perished while remaining Roman Catholic? It boggles my mind how these people could be so Convinced and articulate in defending and explaining the doctrines of grace how they could very calmly and flippantly use phrases like in our dear
01:23:33: Roman Catholic brothers and And who will lament Pope Francis and look looking fondly backward to the days of Pope John Paul II and and Who is
01:23:52: Cardinal Ratzinger again That's right. Right Benedict the 16th, and I'm and I had to say to a guest
01:23:58: I said well as far as I'm concerned every Pope is a repugnant thing in the eyes of God and in fact
01:24:06: I said I think that Pope Francis may be used of God to draw more people out of the
01:24:13: Catholic Church just because of the blatant Yeah, yeah, right, right, but what how do you respond to that with this this love affair?
01:24:21: That that many solidly reformed people seem to have with Rome Most of them are too afraid to say that around me because they know where I stand so I don't run into all that often
01:24:30: But obviously one of the issues is the difference between northern and southern Presbyterians because northern
01:24:36: Presbyterians have always accepted the validity of Rome's Baptist and Southern Presbyterians have said no the gospel has to be the present.
01:24:44: Therefore. It's it's an invalid baptism. So that has led to a Denominationally oriented
01:24:53: Willingness to look at Rome as an as a real expression of of the church Even if they don't any longer use the language of the reformed like synagogues of Satan and things like that, but yeah
01:25:09: Reformed doesn't necessarily mean I am In agreement with the past Debates that took place and stuff and that's how they view it instead of it being a gospel issue instead of seeing
01:25:23: The necessity to set up a pulpit on the far side of the Tiber River and call for people to leave Rome they see it as a less
01:25:33: Profitable path, but still a valid path and to me I Can't not possibly see how the reformed how the reformers
01:25:43: Seeing how Rome has continued in its rebellion Against the gospel for hundreds of years afterwards and has only gotten more
01:25:52: Vivid in its its gross, I mean I can't imagine what
01:25:57: Calvin would have done with papal infallibility the Immaculate conception and the bodily assumption which have been defined since they lived
01:26:05: I mean those would have been central to their apologetic against Rome back then and Now that Rome continues to go that direction.
01:26:13: I think they would have been even clearer in their in their denunciations, but look, there's a
01:26:21: It's there's a there's a let's all get along attitude out there and I don't understand it
01:26:27: I don't I don't understand how you can Understand what the gospel is and then look at what
01:26:32: Rome teaches, but a lot of them don't know really what Rome teaches They they may have some vague idea, but they don't really understand the concept of Christ's The representation of that one sacrifice in an unbloody manner that perfects no one we've gotten more into depth on the subject of the mass and the debates we did on Long Island than most
01:26:55: Most people in their seminaries do so a lot of just Yes, and of course, I don't mean to Give the wrong impression to our listeners that I believe every single professedly
01:27:06: Roman Catholic person is damned because there are Roman Catholic people who are that in name only Who believe in the true gospel either through their own ignorance of what
01:27:15: Rome teaches or through some kind of Rebellion on their part. They remain in the
01:27:20: Roman Catholic Church while rebelling against their understanding of the dogmas of salvation but it's been a great pleasure having you squeeze some time in and during your busy schedule here at g3 to be on iron chirping's iron radio and Look forward to our next live interview on just Armenians All right, thanks brother
01:27:43: I Hope you enjoyed that interview at this time. We're going to take a break to hear from our sponsors when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the
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01:29:39: Chris Arnzen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years
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01:31:10: That's chrisarnson at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio.
01:31:35: I'm Eric Nielsen and we are listening to interviews from the recent g3 conference This next interview is with Marcus Pittman the producer of the film babies are murdered here
01:31:48: Well, here I am again on site at the g3 conference 2020 in Atlanta, Georgia at the
01:31:54: Georgia International Convention Center, and I'm here with Marcus Pittman who is the producer of babies are murdered here one and two and the latest
01:32:08: Babies are murdered here too is available on Amazon Prime It is yeah, and it's my honor and privilege to have you back on iron sharpens iron radio
01:32:15: Marcus Pittman Thank you Yeah Well of the abortion issue is not only a vital issue it's not only a
01:32:30: Horrific stain on this nation in fact globally Something that would no doubt make us worthy of The harshest wrath of God poured upon us and he extends his mercy towards this nation and other
01:32:53: Nations across the globe that are guilty of promoting an activity of actively participating in infanticide
01:33:05: But one of the things that makes it even more complicated Is that even those who believe that abortion is murder even those that believe
01:33:15: It is infanticide You have an approach to the abortion issue
01:33:22: Where you actually criticize Some fellow believers because you believe that their approach to abortion is actually counterproductive
01:33:31: Would I be accurate in saying that? Well, I think that when we are discussing the issue of abortion that we need to be focused on making sure that that our message is gospel centered, but also our
01:33:50: Orthopraxy so our orthodoxy of course in dealing with abortion has to be gospel centered, but our orthopraxy has to be
01:33:58: That way as well If you could in detail explain exactly what you mean how how you believe some of those in the pro -life movement would be
01:34:10: Incorrect and perhaps even in serious error in involving their orthopraxy yeah, so one of the things is we don't want to Use the word murder when discussing abortion.
01:34:26: That was something we found When we were doing the first film because we had the signs that said of course said babies are murdered here
01:34:34: And there was this big Uproar over whether or not we should even use the word murder at all to describe what was happening and as time went on I Think more pro -life ministries
01:34:47: Christian and non -christian Just began to embrace the word murder and then of course it
01:34:55: There there comes the question of a woman who has an abortion Is she guilty of murder and so you're seeing this come up a lot in pro -life legislation
01:35:07: Where they don't want to? They want they don't want the pro -life movement so that when
01:35:16: I say pro -life movements I say the pro -life political lobbyist groups the ones that are funded and you know backed by the
01:35:22: GOP like the major pro -life lobbyist groups Don't want to endorse any bill that would imply
01:35:32: Some sort of criminal responsibility on the woman for seeking out an abortion so because in the pro -life lobbyist minds they're just victims of their circumstances or victims of Whatever, they've been taught by Planned Parenthood or public education or whatever
01:35:48: But as a Christian we know that People know that they're sinning against God they know they're sitting there and said their heart is deceitfully wicked and totally depraved and And and and and like as Romans 1 says
01:36:04: They're suppressing the truth, and they're unrighteous, so it's not that they don't and also
01:36:10: It's just silly because I've never heard a woman who's pregnant deny that she's pregnant with it with a baby or or whatever
01:36:19: So you just never hear it, so they know women know that they're pregnant women know that they're There had they have kids that they're gonna have a child and yes, even even those in the media the secular media who
01:36:34: You know from other things that they have said and done in the media that they are in favor of abortion abortion rights
01:36:42: When it comes to somebody carrying a child Who wants that child they will chime in in Celebration of this person, and they will refer to the baby in the and you know that the person is carrying
01:36:58: They will call it a baby Even though they are in other occasions in favor of a woman's.
01:37:05: Oh, yeah like even like Was it Michelle Williams? Who was at the
01:37:11: Golden Globes and she gave that speech about how You know if it wasn't for abortion.
01:37:17: She wouldn't have gotten this award. You know and then As she's pregnant with a baby
01:37:22: She's on stage talking about how thankful she is for abortion So so there was never there's obviously not a time
01:37:31: Where she didn't realize that there was a baby inside her that she was killing And so and so that's
01:37:38: What the second movie babies are so murdered here seeks to show is that our?
01:37:45: Legislation that we like there's no there's no neutrality There's there's no
01:37:51: Way to make a law that's unbiased and so when we make abortion laws
01:37:57: We need to make them as Christians, too, and we need to support Christian laws and so part of that is
01:38:05: Demanding justice on on women who carry out
01:38:10: And have abortions and murder their children as well as the abortion doctor But in the pro -life movement you have organizations like let's say like Abby Johnson for example have has
01:38:21: And then there were none Which spends a tremendous amount of time and effort in?
01:38:28: actually coming around and saying that those who work at the abortion clinics or those who
01:38:34: Are abortion doctors are also victims you know they can't get a good job
01:38:40: They you know this is the job that they have or or whatever and and so like that's the sort of Mentality we're trying to step away from and say look when abortion happens
01:38:53: Someone is a criminal and someone has a victim And to make it that everybody's a victim is just silly and you're not gonna make it illegal if there's no bad guy sort of I guess you could say misplaced compassion
01:39:09: Yeah, yeah, it is and well. I think it's it's too. It's misplaced compassion, but it's also look sort of like It's like a foe.
01:39:18: It's a foe human humility, or it's like well. You know we just you know
01:39:24: Everyone's a sinner and that I mean you know and grace goes to the abortion doctor and then the abortion nurses, too
01:39:31: But nobody denies that like nobody denies that abortion doctors can be saved nobody denies that abortion nurses
01:39:40: Can be saved no one denies that the issue is what should the government do?
01:39:46: with this crime Right like so so we you wouldn't say because everybody's a sinner
01:39:54: We shouldn't punish rapists anymore Right we Right we would say well.
01:40:00: No no grace can be extended to a rapist, but he still needs There's consequences for your sin right and so the confusion and the pro -life lobbyist groups is that?
01:40:11: Because they're Roman Catholic, and it's just Grace is just grace is just poured out
01:40:18: And they just don't have an understanding of justice and grace and works And like you know so it does interfere with Let's say the work of Protestant pro -life groups and stuff like that so So tell us about some of the responses to babies are murdered here one and two and how those responses have developed even with Political activism in regard to the life of the unborn.
01:40:50: I mean like just being here at a g3. I've had This is my first time I've been to this conference
01:40:56: It almost feels like did you ever go to any of the deeper conferences? Like the way the master conferences that they had way back in the day.
01:41:03: No how much feels like that it's really cool, but uh It's a a lot of people have come up to me and said that they've seen the movie and because they've seen the movie they're engaging and being active and and that's good because I because I like the fact that Christians are making media or there's films that when people watch
01:41:24: They don't just watch sit on the couch and watch it, and then just forget about it, but like the movies actually
01:41:30: Moving them to go and do something and to be all be involved and be active You see a lot of that here at g3 a lot of people have come up to me
01:41:37: And so they've seen the film and so that's that's pretty It's pretty I mean you never know like you make a movie and you put it out there
01:41:45: But you never know like how many babies are gonna be saved as a result of like people watching this movie and going out to Their own abortion clinic, and I'll never know that number on this side of eternity anyway, but it's cool
01:41:56: It's cool to think about yeah, no I know that you're post -millennialist so You are you have a confidence?
01:42:04: that Things are going to be much better than they are now in regard to abortion and especially in regard to the salvation of souls
01:42:12: Yeah, but what can you tell us about what you see in? regard to Legal abortion
01:42:22: That gives you tangible reasons for better things to come now well,
01:42:30: I think The first thing I would say is is that well
01:42:38: George Grant has a book called third time around and it's the history of the pro -life movement all the way back to the early church
01:42:45: So this is the third time around like this is the third time That we've
01:42:50: I believe that's the name of his book. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure so this sounds like a George Grant Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's it's the history of the pro -life movement and and and so this isn't the first time the
01:43:03: Christian Church have dealt with legal abortion But we've seen time and time again
01:43:10: It's only been the Christian Church that have stopped it and so it's different forms in history all right, this is like a
01:43:22: Medical clean Sort of sterile version of abortion is what we're seeing now
01:43:28: Whereas you know in the past they would do drug concoctions And you know women would risk their lives to have abortions and stuff in ways
01:43:38: Grotesque ways that don't happen now, but each time it's been the Christian Church That's risen up and put a stop to it, and I think
01:43:47: The the the legal the fact that it's legal. I think Allows the church to see hey something isn't right in our nation
01:43:58: Like something isn't there's something not right with the Christian Church that they can allow this to happen pastors being too complacent or that people just go to church on Sunday, and like that's their view of Christianity whereas like their
01:44:15: Christianity Doesn't produce good works. It's just you know them going to church on Sunday And so so the legal aspect of it is is a way in which
01:44:24: God is using in his Providence To it to wake up the Christian Church and to get them involved in you know not just you know abortion industry, but you know sex trafficking and And adoption and all these other things that are that are just tied to it
01:44:44: It's all to bring about the Christian Church and stuff so what what are you? Most excited about that you have seen especially in regards to states
01:44:57: Governors in regard to wanting to end abortion and preserve
01:45:05: The life of the unborn and so on what good news. Can you report things that have happened or developing on,
01:45:12: Ohio? there's the The is it the free free the states.
01:45:18: I think it's called or abolition now It's going to be at, Ohio. You know how the exact dates was in February And you can go to free the states calm and you can free the states
01:45:29: Yeah, free the states calm air on the information is there and then and then there's going to be a huge rally in,
01:45:36: Ohio to make a bill that Completely ends abortion in,
01:45:42: Ohio, and there's actual state legislators like Joseph silk for example who's part of that organization?
01:45:51: Who's a state legislator, and he wants to end abortion? Completely not legislate it not put regulations on it, but apps actually get rid of it.
01:46:00: We see in, Texas People like John speed are working to to write laws
01:46:09: Sanctuary City laws that are good and not like not bad to the problem.
01:46:14: We have is that Christians might get together, and they might write a piece of legislation and present it to their state legislator
01:46:23: And then you have the pro -life lobbies that come and then they just eat away at it and put their red pen all over it
01:46:29: And then by the time it gets to the floor. That's not even the bill the Christians Had so for an example of that would be there's a sanctuary city in,
01:46:38: Texas. I don't remember where it was but they Wanted to enact a sanctuary city as a means to prevent
01:46:46: Planned Parenthood from Because Planned Parenthood was looking to build a place in their city, so they created the sanctuary
01:46:52: City laws sanctuary City law and They The pro -life movement got a hold of it, and it's and they went and allowed
01:47:04: Like are you 486 and morning -after pills? To be exempt from the sanctuary
01:47:10: City so but it was already legal Like are you 46 and those things were already legal before the sanctuary
01:47:18: City resolution, but now? Because of the pro -life lobbies those are you 46 are codified in the law and protected by law
01:47:26: So now if you want to get rid of those you have to make another law To get rid of that one and then make a law that says it's illegal
01:47:35: You got to do double the work now, so so that's kind of what but still the sanctuary cities are
01:47:42: Are happening, and I think it's gonna. It's only gonna be a matter of time before there's a good sanctuary
01:47:49: City bill that's passed probably in Texas or somewhere and They're gonna force
01:47:54: CVS and Walmart and Walgreens To stop carrying birth control and all the other stuff that'll be that'll be when it really matters when you see that happen
01:48:04: So I don't think it'll I think this year will be the year. We see something like that so Wow so Going back a bit to something
01:48:14: I mentioned earlier, but different approaches that are Taken advantage of or or operated by Some within the pro -life movement with whom you disagree
01:48:29: Would you say that there is too much pragmatism? Involved too much timidity or fear that if you go overboard quote -quote and trying to preserve
01:48:44: The life of the unborn by calling it what it is murder and by holding Those who commit these crimes of murder both doctors and the women involved
01:48:55: That you are going to actually be counterproductive in Bringing about the collapse or the end of abortion.
01:49:03: Yeah, I think I think the problem is When we're talking about matters of abortion and stuff like that The the we don't believe in the sovereignty of God to change people's hearts
01:49:15: So it's all based on the well. We got to win them to our side You know that goes that gets in a priest oppositional apologetics to we got to win
01:49:25: We just show them enough evidence and though, you know, one of the scenes and babies are still murdered here is
01:49:32: Hey, I don't know if you've seen it, but in babies are still murdered here There's a clip of R .C.
01:49:37: Sproul and he's you know His his book abortion a rational look at an emotional issue and R .C.
01:49:46: Sproul jr Asked him. Why'd you name it that and R .C. Sproul says well I was naive at the time that I thought
01:49:53: I could present just the evidence that abortion was the taking of a human life and People would would do it and then
01:50:03: I mean and he says he says but that hasn't been the case People are now they know it's a human life and they're still taking it
01:50:11: And so which is interesting because you know, R .C. Sproul debated Bonson on presuppositional evidentialism
01:50:17: In fact, he co -authored a book with John Gerstner against Yeah, but here he is when he's talking about the abortion issue saying yeah, the evidence didn't really help
01:50:27: It was it was so so I do think I mean it all it all boils down to theology
01:50:32: Like our theology can't be in a vacuum like it It affects how we deal with politics or abortion apologetics and all that like Understanding the reformed sovereign view of God really like makes a difference and that's why the
01:50:46: Catholics They're not gonna They're not gonna End it, you know, they're more than happy to keep working and keep working it because that's you know scoring points for them
01:50:59: Now as far as the Responses that you have heard about Regarding people changing their minds over murdering their babies
01:51:11: What can you tell us about that and? Directly linked to babies are murdered here one and two and even the
01:51:21: The evangelistic efforts at abortion mills that you have cooperated in with pastor
01:51:27: Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church Why don't you say the question one more time?
01:51:33: The reason I got distracted The power went out. Yes the power went out for the second time here at the
01:51:39: Georgia International Convention Center But thankfully we are battery -operated as the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio booth
01:51:44: But as far as people that you are aware of Who were intending to murder their children through abortion?
01:51:52: But came to a change of heart after either viewing babies are murdered here one or two and you could even combine this with the responses of people changing their minds
01:52:07: After being confronted by Jeff Durbin and yourself During one of the evangelistic efforts that I know that that Apologia Church has been actively involved in for a number of years at abortion mills yeah,
01:52:22: I mean you know just Telling people the truth that you know you're going to murder your baby today
01:52:30: You're going to be the mother of a dead baby, and we've had we had babies saved this week at the abortion clinic
01:52:37: In Arizona there was a there was a message about it, so so there was a lady who was
01:52:46: Just out there today There was there was a post I saw of a lady who was screaming
01:52:53: She did not want to murder her baby, but her husband was like Arguing with her and then she eventually got in her car and left and so so it happens
01:53:03: I think Christians just need to be out there and understand that like You're not gonna. You're not gonna be able to to stop someone
01:53:13: From murdering their child if you ask John Barrows how many babies he saved out in Florida.
01:53:18: He'll say none But God saved you know over 3 ,000 of them since he's been out there and stuff like that So so saving saving the child's life
01:53:30: Stopping someone from sinning is all based on the sovereignty of God and not based on you know
01:53:39: Smooth talk and arguments right, but of course he uses us as means through which yeah, babies are murdered here and the evangelistic efforts of Apology Church and other churches throughout the
01:53:53: The nation in the world when they are confronting those Who are intending to murder their children that God uses those efforts in his sovereignty and providence to yeah
01:54:06: I have to change minds and heart. Yeah, and So what can you tell us about what you have?
01:54:15: Planned if anything on the horizon and regarding to the the same efforts you're involved in now
01:54:22: Is there babies are murdered here three on the horizon or anything else that you Well, my hope is that babies are murdered here three will will be about how abortion was ended
01:54:33: Right so that'll you know be the the trilogy there But uh, but this year
01:54:41: I'm going to be working on Sort like the plan is to travel a lot and really make a bunch of short little biopics and little tiny
01:54:55: Sort of like vice if you ever watch vice news, and they have these like five -minute news clips about this or that I want to I want to go and document other people that are involved in the abortion fight and Sort of shine light on others and and stuff like that in addition
01:55:12: I want to train other Churches and organizations how to use camera equipment and media to start their own
01:55:22: Abortion ministry and then because because it can't just be apology. It can't just be end abortion now
01:55:29: It has to be a lot more than that so so and so if we can train other churches and organizations
01:55:35: To be posting using social media and posting content. It'll just expand how many people
01:55:41: All become aware of what's happening and the abortion clinics, and I think that'll be a good thing So I'm gonna give a shout out to my friends at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York my friends pastor
01:55:55: Rich Jensen and His new co -elder or recent co -elder.
01:56:00: I should say pastor Christopher McDowell Who both serve there they have?
01:56:06: Appreciated your ministry and the Ministry of Apology of Church as well in your efforts to Prevent women from getting their babies murdered
01:56:17: I Wanted to give a shout out to them because I want those who hear this program
01:56:25: Who have their own? Outreaches evangelistic efforts that they are involved in at abortion mills
01:56:34: I want them to be further equipped to do that job more effectively Or perhaps they even haven't even started an effort like that or a work like that.
01:56:44: They they want to How could you help them not only to start something but even to improve something that that is already existing?
01:56:55: How did they get a hold of you? How did they get a hold of babies are murdered here one and two etc? Oh, yeah, so if you go to an abortion now calm
01:57:01: We have an application that you can fill out with your church and all you need is elder approval so if you if your pastors or elder approve of you being out of the abortion clinic
01:57:12: And they agree that they're gonna provide some oversight not run the thing But they're just gonna be there to disciple you and mentor you as you do it
01:57:22: Then you can get an in abortion now kit which has all the signs you need to be out of the abortion clinic has babies and murder here signs has
01:57:30: Will adopt your baby signs, and then we give you gospel tracks and stuff like that And so if you just go to an abortion now, but also we just launched at an abortion now this sort of It's almost like its own social media website, but it's not on Facebook, but it's a it's like you can post questions and then other churches can come and give answers and then and then there's photos of babies that have been saved
01:58:01: Reports of what's happening, and it's all in this private website within abortion now that you get to Become a part of when you when you sign up and so that that's been a really awesome to see people
01:58:13: You know even you know people in the same state that live close to each other They didn't know that they were signed up so you could do that so go to an abortion now calm
01:58:23: You can skid a packet like that, and then if you want to watch babies are still murdered here It's available on Amazon Prime, so please watch that and leave a review
01:58:33: And share that with your friends that helps a lot Great well Marcus. I look forward to having you back on the program and Tell pastor
01:58:42: Jeff Durbin that I'm eagerly awaiting his return to iron trip and Zion radio to discuss the miracles involved in the adoption of his new son
01:58:55: Augusta yes And Augustin Gideon, I think so yeah,
01:59:01: August Gideon I Haven't met him yet. I'm recovering from open -heart surgery, so we oh wow we went to After after I had open -heart surgery we got permission to fly and we've spent the last
01:59:17: Two three weeks in Virginia with my family and So I'm just coming out of recovery from that yes,
01:59:24: I'm looking forward to meet Yeah, it gives you an idea of how recent this is folks. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty recent so well.
01:59:31: God bless you brother and Let's not wait too long to have you back on our trip and Zion radio.
01:59:36: Yeah, thanks for having me Chris All right, God bless. I hope that you found these interviews today to be profitable
01:59:42: Please listen to iron sharpens iron radio over the next few days as we have several more interviews from the 2020
01:59:48: G3 conference and as Chris always says I hope that you remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater