February 7, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Justin Peters, Dr. James R. White, and Marcus Pittman

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, Champaign County, Illinois, and the rest

of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming to ironsharpensironradio

.com.

My name is Eric Nielsen.

I'm sitting in today for Chris, as we have our third day of conference

interviews.

All three of these interviews today are from the recent G3 conference that was held this

past January, and we have interviews with Justin Peters, Dr. James

R. White, and Marcus Pittman.

Just before the G3 conference this year, Chris held his biannual pastor's luncheon, and

Justin Peters was the featured speaker at that pastor's luncheon.

The following week at G3, he stopped by the table and had this conversation with

Chris.

Well, this is the final day of the G3 conference at the Georgia International Convention Center

in Atlanta, Georgia, technically College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

And I'm here with my friend Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.

I just recently had the honor and privilege to have him speak a week ago

at my Ironsharpensironradio pastor's luncheon.

That was an overwhelming success.

I think we may have had the largest crowd that we've ever had.

We had approximately 90 men there, and it was just a joy, and the men were

riveted to everything Justin had to say.

And I continue to get a stream of glowing reviews

from the men that were attendants there at the Ironsharpensironradio pastor's luncheon, but I'm so

thrilled that I have the double honor of being able to share fellowship with him again just a week later

at the G3 conference.

And Justin, it's a delight to have you back at Ironsharpensironradio.

Chris, it's truly a privilege.

I enjoy every time I come on, and I think the world of you, and I appreciate what you're doing.

And I had a wonderful time last week, as you said, so I thank you very much.

Well, for those of you who don't know Justin or anything about his ministry, Justin

was born with cerebral palsy, and he has a mission in life,

first and foremost, to declare the gospel of Jesus Christ, that lost souls might

be led to eternal life, and also, obviously, first and foremost, to

give praise, honor, and glory to God.

But one of the secondary reasons that Justin's ministry exists is to

expose false teachers, especially those who are involved in the Word of Faith

movement or the Health, Wealth, and Prosperity gospel so -called movement,

because it is no gospel at all.

But, Justin, this obviously has perhaps a deeper meaning,

exposing these false teachers has a deeper meaning to you, having cerebral palsy, and I know that you

had, as a younger man, even sought the possible healing of some of these

so -called faith healers, and that left you in, obviously, at least

initially, a deep state of discouragement.

Right, right, it did, Chris.

Back when I was a teenager, a neighbor of mine came up and said God had spoken to him and

told him that I was going to be healed, as long as I have enough faith, and I went to see some faith healers

believing that I was going to be healed, and obviously was not, so that was my first exposure to the movement,

and as you said, it was very discouraging because I thought I had, you know, there was a lack of faith on

my part.

Now, I know now that I wasn't even converted at that time,

but nonetheless, that's kind of what began my, that was what first exposed me to the movement, began

my interest in it, and some have made the accusation that the reason I do these

seminars now is because I'm bitter that I wasn't healed when I was a teenager, but I think I can safely

say that nothing could be further from the truth now that I have a right

understanding of God's sovereignty and a right theology of

suffering and God's providence, and you know,

if I have to live the rest of my life with cerebral palsy, that's fine.

I've got all of eternity to live without it.

You certainly don't carry yourself as someone that is living a life of bitterness.

When people meet you, I'm sure no one walks away thinking in their head, man, that guy

Justin's really got to let it go.

He's just eaten up with bitterness.

I mean, you happen to be one of the most joyful people I've ever met and

very encouraging and humble people I've ever met.

Well, I don't know if I deserve that, but thank you, Chris.

Thank you, brother.

And one of the bizarre aspects of this

movement is its claim that

Christians can speak things into existence.

Right.

And where did they even get that concept?

Are they twisting the fact that Jesus Christ himself could feed

huge crowds with, you know, five loaves and fishes and so on?

Or what was the origins of that?

Yes, the origins go back to a couple of guys.

The first one, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, was a guy back in the 1800s.

He was the father of the metaphysical cult known as New Thought.

He's the one that first began to articulate some of these doctrines.

And then after him, Essek W. Kenyon picked up, expanded his teachings

further and taught that we can literally speak things into existence just like God did.

And that's the doctrine known as positive confession and the word of faith movement.

They actually teach that our words have within themselves inherent creative

power.

And whatever we speak, we will bring to fruition.

So if we speak positive things, positive things will happen to us.

Conversely, if we speak negative things, they say you shouldn't even

say, I'm sick.

Even if you are sick, don't say it because that just entrenches the reality.

It makes it a reality.

Your words are that inherently powerful.

And this is, of course, right in line with what God himself and

only God can do, speaking things into existence.

That is an ability and an attribute that resides solely with God.

But they take it from God and ascribe it to man, which is also

in congruence with their little gods doctrine.

They teach that we are, in fact, little gods.

If you're a Christian, you are a little god.

Bill Johnson, the leader of Bethel Church, pastor of Bethel Church,

Bethel Music, he says that Jesus was the most normal Christian who ever lived.

Literally, that's a direct quote.

So if you're a Christian, you're just like Jesus.

You have all the rights, all the privileges.

You should never be sick.

Speak things into existence.

And it truly is.

They blur that line between God the creator and us, his created.

They demote God and deify man.

And I don't know if you know the exact quote, but I can remember hearing a sermon so

-called by Kenneth Copeland, where he took that

to its logical conclusion and insinuated that he could have died for the sins of the world

himself.

Do you remember that quote?

Oh, yeah.

Not only did he say that, he actually claims that Jesus told him that.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's right.

So he compounds error with more error, exponentially so.

He says that Jesus came to him in a prophetic vision and said,

well, Kenneth Copeland and Jesus were having a conversation.

Kenneth Copeland said to Jesus, he said, now, wait a minute.

You don't mean that I could have done the same thing, do you?

Meaning atone for sins.

And Jesus, quote unquote, said to Kenneth Copeland, oh, yes, you could have done the same thing

if you had only had the knowledge of God that I did, because you're a reborn man too.

And so Kenneth Copeland could have atoned for sins if he had

just known God's word as well as Christ.

Right.

And you said something very significant there.

Jesus said allegedly to Kenneth Copeland, you're a reborn man too.

Yeah.

Jesus Christ, according to this, I don't even

know what adjective to use to describe this horrific,

evil, hellish teaching.

But Jesus was the first born again man who

became born again in hell after being tortured by the devil and his demons.

Yes, that's right.

That is what they call the spiritual death of Jesus, spiritual death of Jesus doctrine.

They do not believe that Jesus atoned for our sins fully on the cross.

They believe that when Jesus died on the cross, the work was not completed.

It had just begun when Jesus died on the cross.

Then he went to hell.

Now, this comes from Essek W. Kenyon.

Essek W. Kenyon wrote a book entitled From the Cross to the Throne.

And when Jesus died on the cross, then he went to hell, suffered, was tortured by

demons, died a spiritual death, ceased to be God and had to be reborn.

That Jesus actually had to get saved.

And that is where the atonement of our sins, according to them, took place.

Not on the cross, but down in hell.

And this is a standard doctrine today in the word faith movement, the apostolic reformation.

Bill Johnson, for example, he said, and I have this on audio, we don't have it where we can pull it up right

now, but he says to his congregation, he said, did you know that Jesus was born again?

And he said, yes, he was.

He was born again.

Born again, man.

And so, I mean, it's utterly, utterly blasphemy.

Blasphemous, Chris.

They have a different God, a different Jesus, a different atonement, a different gospel.

So basically, you are saying this is not Christianity.

No.

Especially when you're talking about a leader or somebody who

fully understands what they teach, for people to receive this as truth

and teach it themselves, we cannot look at them as brothers in Christ.

That's right.

That's right.

No, we can't.

It is that severe.

Yeah, we're not talking here about who you think wrote the book of Hebrews or the date of the

exodus or something like that.

These issues go to the heart of the gospel.

What one believes about Jesus Christ will determine where one spends eternity.

They have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible.

And I tell people a lot in my teaching, it's not enough to just believe in Jesus.

Mormons believe in Jesus.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus.

Muslims believe in Jesus.

You've got to believe in the right Jesus.

You've got to believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

And their Jesus is just as much a different Jesus as was, as is the Jesus of

Mormonism or Islam.

It's a different gospel.

And it seems very clear that there are similarities to

the occult in their theology and philosophy and practice.

Absolutely.

Which makes perfect sense when I hear the reports of people like Dr.

Conrad Mbewe of Kubwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, who is also the

chancellor of the African Christian University.

Although he recently received a new role there, I believe, so he can actively teach,

which chancellors typically don't do.

But I've known Dr. Mbewe since 1995 and had the privilege of calling him a

dear friend.

The church where I was a member on Long Island before relocating to Pennsylvania, Grace Reform Baptist

Church of Merrick, Long Island, New York.

That was the very first American church where Conrad preached.

How about that?

But he has given these horrific reports about the Word of Faith teachers

there and barely distinguishable from which doctors.

That's right.

Yep.

Same thing.

In fact, I was, I don't know if you know that, I was with Conrad last month.

No, I did not know that.

Yeah.

I went to Zambia in December and had a wonderful, wonderful time there.

I was in Kitway for a week -long conference and Conrad was one of the speakers there.

So he and I were speaking together at this conference with some other speakers as well.

Had a wonderful time.

And then I was, Conrad drove me down to Lusaka and we, I

preached at his church.

We spent the weekend together and what a good brother.

I mean, just a dear, dear brother.

He's the real deal.

Oh yeah.

And I have often repeated on my show that I believe he is the greatest living preacher on the planet earth.

Yeah.

A case could be made for that.

Yeah.

I've heard him referred to as the Spurgeon of Africa, but you know, we've got a

lot of good faithful men out there and Conrad is certainly one of them.

Now, I think that we have to be careful not to broad brush

all Pentecostals and Charismatics in this group.

I believe that they are all in error on the signed gifts issue, but there is obviously a

wide spectrum of understanding, even of the signed gifts amongst those, especially in the

Charismatic movement, because Pentecostal denominations typically have a more historically

defined theology.

When I say historically, I mean, historically, according to Pentecostalism.

Yeah.

That involves what they teach about the signed gifts and so on.

But, you know, in the Charismatic movement, you have a broader spectrum of all the way to the

totally insane and dark and dangerous, but you have also

Brethren in Christ that believe nearly identically as you and I, except that they believe

that the signed gifts are possible and they believe that they have not been

convinced through Scripture that there are texts that clearly teach

an abolishing of the signed gifts and so on.

So, even though we disagree, don't you think that we have to be careful not to broad brush these

folks who I would call Brethren with these more sinister aspects of what

would be called Charismatic behavior and teaching?

Yeah, Chris.

And that is a distinction that I often make in my teaching, that the question between

cessationism and continuism or continuationism, you know, as cessationists, you and I

believe in the gifts of teaching and mercy and administration and exhortation and giving and

hospitality.

Those gifts are very much in operation.

We would just say that the apostolic gifts, the signed gifts are no longer in operation.

Gift of tongues or languages and interpretation of languages, two separate gifts, gift of

miracles, gift of healing are no longer operative because those were apostolic gifts and

there are no more apostles today.

So, those gifts are no longer operative and I think an overwhelming case can be made from Scripture, not

necessarily that there's a verse that says these gifts ceased on this date, but you just look at the compendium of what Scripture teaches in the New

Testament and you see the progression, chronological progression even through the New Testament, you see those gifts fading

away.

But so, this is a very, very, very important issue.

It is not though, as you said, it's not an inherently salvific issue.

There are genuine believers who would believe that those gifts still continue.

So, we're not saying that if you're a Charismatic, you're lost.

So, but there, and I know some Charismatics, continuous, that

rail against the Word of Faith movement and the New Apostolic Reformation.

So, but I do think it is a very, very important issue because of the ripple effects.

It's a very slippery slope, to be real honest.

It's a very slippery slope from the continuous position right into Benny Hinn land.

Right, and it's also a slippery slope into a denial of the sufficiency of

Scripture.

Yeah, and I would say the position itself necessitates a

denial of sufficiency of Scripture.

If you hold to the continuous position, you cannot, with a

logical consistency, also hold to the sufficiency of Scripture because they're mutually

exclusive positions.

They're contradictory positions.

Now, I'd like you to give a word of comfort and encouragement

to listeners who are suffering with illnesses of all kinds.

They may be wrongfully convinced that

they are displeasing to God, they are unfaithful,

and it may be that they are racking their brains trying to

think of this unconfessed sin that is the reason that

they are in a hospital bed, perhaps even with IV tubes hooked up to them,

breathing apparatus and so on, or whatever the case may be.

Now, we are all sinners, that's for sure.

Right.

And I do believe, as we have even discussed, I believe I actually brought it up in

the Q &A session when you were conducting the pastor's luncheon.

There are cases where God chastises those whom He

loves with illness or what have you because they are being disobedient in some way, and

it's a wake -up call to them, perhaps.

And we even have the example in Scripture of people approaching the Lord's table in an

unworthy manner, and some of them were sick and even died because of that.

Right.

But that should not be the absolute and

final conclusion that every sick person draws.

Maybe it should be an initial thing that causes them to search their hearts, but it shouldn't be something that

rests there and remains there, this haunting fear that

could just paralyze someone in depression and so on.

Yes, that's right.

That's right, Chris.

The fact of the matter is we live in a fallen world, and one of the consequences of living in a fallen world, the fallen

state of humanity, is that we get sick, and we have disabilities, and cancer, arthritis,

multiple sclerosis, whatever, your head cold.

Next time you catch a cold, it's because we live in a fallen world.

And also aging.

The reason we age is because we live in a fallen world.

And I'm kind of amused when I hear these prosperity preachers teach that you should always be healed because

we've been completely delivered from the effects of the curse, and yet you can look at videos of

Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland or fill in the blank year by year, and guess what?

Every year they look a little bit older than they did the year before, and it's because this fallen world is taking its toll on their

bodies.

Same reason we get sick.

But look through the Bible.

This is where I always take people to Scripture.

Look through the Bible.

There are many examples of faithful servants of God who were sick.

Moses.

God said to Moses, who has made man's mouth?

Who makes him dumb or deaf or seeing or blind?

Is it not I, the Lord?

Elisha, 2 Kings 13, died of an illness, and yet he had a double portion anointing of

the great prophet Elijah, and yet he died of a sickness.

Paul, take a little wine for your stomach and your frequent ailments, he wrote to Timothy.

And Paul himself had a bodily illness, and I don't even take people to the thorn in the flesh

because I'm not convinced that was a bodily illness.

Go to Galatians chapter 4, verse 13.

Paul said, you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I came and preached the gospel to you

the first time, and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition, you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of

God, even as Christ Jesus himself.

So here's the man who wrote roughly a third of the New Testament, and he was sick.

What do you do with that?

Did Paul not have enough faith to be healed?

He wrote a third of the New Testament.

So you're in good company, dear brother, dear sister in Christ, if you are sick.

Many of the Bible's most faithful servants of God were sick, so we should expect this.

And I have no problem at all with praying for someone who is sick to recover,

praying that God would heal that person, that is perfectly fine.

And on occasion, but only when it's His sovereign will to do so, God does heal people.

Quite honestly, it's more the exception than the rule.

It's not a common thing.

On occasion, though, He does.

But if God does not bring healing, He promises something far better.

He promises that His grace will be sufficient.

His strength will be made perfect in our weaknesses.

1 Peter 5, verse 7, Peter says, cast all your

anxieties upon Him because He cares for you.

He cares.

And literally in the Greek, Chris, He cares for you.

That phrase, the literal rendering of that is it matters to Him about

you.

It matters to Him about you.

That is just an overwhelming thought when you think that the one who spoke the

universe into existence creates everything and holds every molecule in all the

universe in its appointed place.

It matters to Him about you.

Whatever it is that you're going through, it matters to Him.

And so Selah, you know, God, He is a God who is near.

He understands our pain and our struggles.

And He never leaves us, never forsakes us.

And in the midst of our suffering, in the midst of our trials, sickness, disease, whatever it is, the greatest

desire that we should have for our lives is to carry the name of Christ well.

Lord, use this sickness to conform me more into the image of your Son.

And may I carry your name well through the sickness, through the trials.

May I glorify Christ.

That's what we should really be praying for.

Amen.

Well, brother, it is always a pleasure to have you on Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio.

I look forward to your return for another two -hour interview during one of our live.

Broadcasts.

But you have certainly made this experience of being here at G3 a richer one for me

due to your fellowship and just your constant, being a constant source of

encouragement.

Thank you, Chris.

Likewise, brother. Thank you so much.

And justinpeters .org is the website.

Correct.

Justinpeters .org.

Great.

God bless.

You too.

I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Justin Peters.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm Eric Nielsen, and we are listening to interviews from the 2020 G3 Conference.

This year at the G3 Conference, Dr. James White did not have a booth with Alpha and

Omega Ministries.

Instead, he was visiting a number of booths at the G3 Conference, and he stopped

by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio booth.

Here's the conversation that Chris had with James White.

Well, here I am at the fourth G3 Conference that I've attended, manning an exhibitor's

booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here in Atlanta, Georgia, at the Georgia International Convention Center.

And I am here live on site with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, one of my

favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And he is wearing...

He's waving at everybody going by because he knows everyone here.

It's really weird.

And he's wearing probably the coolest cross necklace I've ever seen in my life.

You know where I bought that?

I bought that on the Navajo Reservation in northern Arizona when I was driving back and forth between the

Colorado of Colorado.

I stopped, I saw it, and I was like, oh man, I really, really want that.

But I didn't get it.

Drove up two miles down the road, banged a UAE, went back and got it because it was so unique.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, it just, it just glows.

I've just never seen anything that catches the light as beautifully as that one does.

Very, very nice.

Yeah.

I love Navajo stuff.

I mean, they make beautiful pottery and stuff like that.

They're a neat people.

And it's just sort of sad to see what's happened to them in Arizona.

It's, we could get into it.

But when the government tries to provide for you, it's going to screw up.

Right.

It's going to screw up badly and create all sorts of problems in the process.

So anyway.

Well, why don't you tell our listeners some of the most pressing issues today

that face Alpha Omega Ministries.

You are on the front lines of so many battles, it seems, and Christendom today.

And perhaps even go through a progression of those things that were primary

in your focus when you started Alpha Omega Ministries and lead us up until the present day.

Well, you know, it has changed so rapidly and so quickly.

The foundations haven't.

But, you know, when we first started doing stuff on Long Island,

the battles were a little bit more easily defined.

You had your liberalism.

You had, you know, we were doing debates on Roman Catholicism and

finally did our first debate on Islam there on Long Island, even though I don't consider that my first Islamic debate.

Yes, I know.

Because I hadn't started studying Islam yet.

You were defending the deity of Christ.

Against a fellow who would eventually leave Orthodox Islam anyways, which is

rather interesting.

And that's where we got the messing with the Philippians defense, which we had never heard of before.

And I know I've told you, Chris, but over the years, I play some of the

audience Q &A from that.

What was the name of the church?

That was, at the time, it was the Bible Baptist Church

of Syosset.

Yes, yes, it was in Syosset.

They've since changed the name and it's a totally different kind of church.

Right, right.

But the people that recorded it were from their side,

if you remember that.

And it was rather interesting how they did things.

They didn't really mind whether the audience was interrupted by what they were doing or not.

And so the angle of one of the cameras had you and my wife

and my daughter.

So you could see me and Hamza Abdul -Malik and the moderator.

And then you're here.

Then Kelly's here.

And then Summer's here.

And so I love pointing out to people that there's my nine -year -old daughter listening as this whole long line of

Muslims are asking her dad these questions about the Bible and the deity of Christ and stuff like that.

And those questions were amazing.

Now, in hindsight, it's like, well, duh.

But at the time, it was like, oh, my.

This is going to be really, really interesting.

Defeat three.

Defeat three, defeat three.

That's right.

So back then, things were not nearly as complicated.

You hardly had any conflicts with those that would profess to be reformed back then.

Exactly.

Yep, yep.

Or even with the Calvinism issue, at least there was much more unity.

There's been much more fracturing.

And part of it is because of, well, critical theory divides.

That's what it's meant to do.

I was actually sitting at dinner last night with a very well -known

atheist, who if I mentioned him, you'd go, oh, yeah, I know exactly who it is, who is an expert on

critical theory and what it's doing to our society.

And no matter which direction you pushed, the other side

was always seeking to fracture and divide.

And that's what critical theory does.

It breaks things down.

And how effectively they're doing it, even within the academy, not even

including Christians and things like that, that's coming into the church.

And the result is the divisions that we see now, to where

it seems like there's no one front that we're battling on anymore.

It seems like we're surrounded by the enemy, and the fire is coming from every which direction.

So it's sort of nice when you can come to some place and

find a lot of folks that are pulling the same direction, even though we all sort of

realize, wow, things have gotten much more complicated.

But it's nice to see.

I mean, you and I have been here, I think this is the fourth year I've spoken here,.

Too.

And it's nice to see that it's flourishing.

It's nice to see folks that we've known and helped

get started and things like that, and see old friends.

But you also see friends that are now getting old.

You and I have been at this a long, long, long time.

You're looking pretty gray in the jowls yourself.

I mean, look at this white beard, man.

I mean, I just wish the whole thing would go that way.

I would look so much cooler if I had a completely white beard.

There's also stuff you can buy to darken it.

But have you ever tried to find something to lighten it?

No, no, no.

It just doesn't work that way.

So when you started Alpha Omega Ministries, if I can remember correctly, which would have been in the 70s,

perhaps?

Oh, goodness.

No, we started in October of 1983.

OK, well, it wasn't that far off.

And it was primarily Mormonism that you were...

Mormonism first.

Jehovah's Witnesses came pretty fast after that.

If you're going to be talking about Mormonism, then everybody should be asking about the.

Witnesses.

And then a friend of mine who was part of the church at the time, who has since passed away,

was a former Roman Catholic.

And he started pushing me on that issue.

And you ought to be awfully glad for that.

Because if he hadn't, then you never would have called me that day and gotten such the warm

brotherly welcome that you did.

How did you get this number?

But yeah, he pressed me on that issue and said, hey, if you're talking to the Mormons about this, if you're talking to Jehovah's

Witnesses about this, then you need to look at what Rome is saying about the gospel and stuff like that.

And as you pointed out in the first debate, that's just how, in your introduction to the first debate, that's how to really make yourself

popular is to address, especially the subject of Roman Catholicism.

But then I wanted to become even less popular later on.

And so I started addressing Islam.

So that pretty well covers the gamut.

And ironically, some of your harshest critics when entering into the arena with

Muslims have not been Muslims, but fellow Christians and even Reformed Christians.

Yes, yeah.

And ironically, it's not because of what I'm saying to the Muslims.

I mean, they rarely are arguing that I'm not presenting the Trinity correctly or the gospel correctly.

It's the idea of showing respect to Muslims as fellow image bearers, which you would think their theology

would demand of them.

But there is such a strong antipathy that

many people have that comes, especially from political perspectives, that it overwhelms

what should be their standard Christian understanding that this is an image bearer of God.

I see tremendously strong parallels between modern ministry to Muslims and the

ministry to Jews in the first century church, because they have very many

parallel beliefs.

Very few of them have read the New Testament.

They have a very shallow understanding of who Jesus is.

But there's all sorts of cultural barriers that get in the way.

And if Paul could love the Jews enough to give himself for them, you would think that we would

naturally go that direction ourselves, but we don't.

So it's really primarily the conflict over the way you approach

some of your interaction with Muslims.

Not all.

Some of them have been straightforward debates.

Right.

But when you have dialogues, people have viewed them as being too

soft and friendly.

Compromised.

Yeah.

And I have said to some of your critics, if you had a

Muslim neighbor and the Muslim neighbor invited you over

their home for a meal to discuss religion, would you go?

And they said, of course.

And then you go over that person's home and you're having this interaction in a relaxed atmosphere over

refreshments or something.

Would it be wrong to ask?

This is so fascinating.

Could we film this or record this?

Right.

And if the Muslim agrees, so you're saying that it would be inappropriate to show this film or air these

recordings to people?

And it's not just that.

The other element was that in the specific dialogue, which we're going to be doing another one, we're working on setting it up right now.

But in that specific dialogue, which was with Dr. Yasir Qadhi, Dr. Qadhi is one of the leading

Muslim scholars in the United States.

And I said in the first night that I had learned a great deal from him

because I had.

He had sent me a 16 -CD series called Light and Guidance.

I had listened to it multiple times.

I had corresponded with him, asked him questions.

That's what opened up this dialogue was he himself said when he introduced me to his, he was the imam of a mosque in

Memphis.

He introduced me to the mosque and he said, Shabir Ali asked me to send

my CDs.

I did.

I figured they just sit on a shelf someplace.

Instead, a few weeks later, I start getting emails from this guy and he's asking me questions

about what I said.

He's using Arabic and showing more interest in what I said than most of my own students.

Wow.

And that's what led to this.

And what's frightening is the idea amongst many Christians is the only way that

you should learn about Islam is from another Christian.

When the reality is, you know, my entire ministry,

when I studied Mormonism, where did I go?

I went to the Mormons.

It doesn't mean I ignored Christians who had studied it before.

I'm not sitting there going, I'm the only one who can ever figure this out.

No, I benefited from Bill Webster and people that have done work before me.

But you don't just stop there.

And what has helped me the most has been listening, for example, to Muslims talking to Muslims.

Because you really want to know where someone's coming from.

We realized if they wanted to know where Reformed Baptists were coming from, then there's a bunch of people I could recommend listening

to their sermons.

It's going to give you a really good idea.

Reformed Baptists talking to Reformed Baptists.

At least they're going to be able to accurately represent.

Well, that idea of accurately representing, unfortunately, is not a high priority for many of my fellow Christians.

But the very fact that I showed Dr. Kadi respect as a scholar, as

a fellow human being, you're not allowed to do that.

He's a bad man because this, that, or the other thing.

And that's really where the issue was, is you're compromising because you're showing respect.

You know, so when Paul shows respect to the high priest, I guess he was compromising as well.

He wasn't.

And so it opens up.

I was just talking to someone.

I was just doing meet and greet for like four hours.

And one of the ladies that came through is going to be going and doing some ministry amongst

Muslim women in Africa, in a rather challenging area.

And one of the things I said to her was, you know, she's like, how do you get the door open?

How do you?

And the things I suggested to her was showing them the respect of knowing what they believe, learning some of

the Hadith.

That for me has opened doors for so many Muslims.

I narrated some of their own favorite stories that their own imams tell them.

And it's like, you're a Christian and you know what we believe about this?

All of a sudden, boom, it's like you kick the door open.

You can go straight into the gospel.

I mean, it's almost one of the easiest things you could possibly ever do.

We don't want to do it because we're afraid or because we have some type of fundamental prejudice.

And that's what got me into trouble.

And I'm going to do it again because that's kind of trouble I will get into.

And does that mean doors have closed to me?

Yep.

If that's what it takes, fine.

You know, we're both getting old enough that I don't care too much anymore.

I mean, seriously, if after almost, I'm at 174 moderated public debates now.

Thanks a lot to you.

And between you and Michael Fallon, who knows how many of those that adds up to.

But I've done this enough, long enough to go, you

know what?

I think I know how to make this happen.

And I'm tired of worrying about, OK, so a door gets closed to me.

There'll be other doors that will open, whatever.

So in the present day, what would you say is the greatest conflict you

and Alpha and Omega Ministries is facing in the body of Christ and in the world at large?

How to explain my many appearances in Iron Sharpens Iron.

I didn't say your greatest embarrassment.

I just I'm just trying to keep you awake, Chris.

I'm just trying to.

Chris is.

Chris is tired today.

So am I.

But sadly, I'll have to admit, given the

preeminence of Western culture in the world, even as I've now started traveling so much more

overseas, I mean, you knew me long before I'd.

I mean, we were sort of wrapping up the great debate series, right, as I started going to England for the first

time in 2005.

And that wasn't because you and I got tired of each other.

We ran out of Roman Catholics who were willing to actually engage in meaningful debate.

Well, I know.

I know a guy named Carl in janitorial supply over at Sears, who's a Catholic, who says he wants to debate.

Yeah, that's right.

That's what we were ending up running into.

But worldwide, I wish I could have this nice big worldwide perspective.

And I do in one sense.

But we export our garbage to the rest of the world.

And I'm seeing the type of negative impact it's having around the world.

And so I guess, you know, I don't want to sound like a

scaremonger or something, but it does seem to me that the rapid infiltration

of critical theory in all of its forms.

I was talking to students from Southern Baptist seminaries here within the past couple of hours,

who testified of the deep impact that social justice perspectives, critical race

theory, all the critical theories, critical gender theory is having within their.

Was Pastor Andy Woodard one of them?

Not that I know of.

He's the pastor of New Covenant Baptist Church, NYC in Manhattan.

And he's the only, at least according to his knowledge of the churches in that huge

city.

But he is the only reformed church that has not caved in.

To the woke movement, yeah.

Yeah, I just see that as probably the most effective mechanism

that the enemy has ever devised to fundamentally divide and conquer.

And it's going to result in a reorientation of denominational lines and everything else.

You can see with the United Methodists and what's happened with them, you know, they stood

firm because of the African United Methodists.

And now they've basically separated from them.

And so now you have new denominations.

Divide, divide, divide.

That's what critical theory is all about.

Divide, divide, divide.

And so eventually you're going to come under pressure to raise your

intersectionality score because we all know that your colorblindness

results in you being persecuted by people like myself who cannot help but laugh at your tie choices.

And so you'll be convinced that this is a part of your identity.

And therefore you must divide.

I mean, that sounds funny, but unfortunately, when you really start listening to what's happening with intersectionality, it's

not all that funny.

It's too close.

It's Babylon be close to the truth.

And so I really do see that as what's going to be the biggest

challenge because when those seminaries either become completely woke, then

they will break free of their confessional moorings and they'll be moving the same direction that Union did.

But Union did it 130 years ago.

Now you used as a joke at my expense my literal colorblindness.

Yes.

But isn't it ironic that...

Well, you're a victim.

Right.

You're a victim.

That gives you intersectionality score.

Right.

But what I was going to say is, isn't it ironic that having been raised in the late

60s and 70s, those that were most publicly

conscious over bigotry and things

like that, racial discrimination, would claim to be colorblind.

Right.

And they would say that is the way we should live our lives.

Not any longer.

We're not supposed to be...

Even Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous speech that said that we are not to judge people by the color of their skin, but by the

content of their character.

That seems to have reversed.

It has.

And it almost seems when you hear these progressive Christians, quote, quote, Christians,

who are champions of the critical race theory, sometimes you're shaking your head and scratching your head

and having to listen more intently because you almost think that you're listening to somebody reading from the

Ku Klux Klan manual.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, critical theory not only reverses the polarities of everything,

it's done it so quickly.

And it could only be succeeding the way it is because of the takeover of public education.

The wall may have fallen, Chris, but we had already lost that war.

Their shock troops had already invaded our universities in the 1940s and 50s.

So it didn't matter.

The wall was an expensive thing that wasn't needed anymore.

They had already succeeded in their invasion.

That's where I'm coming from anymore and looking at that.

Because you and I were around, we're like, yay, that's awesome.

End of the Soviet Union, 1991.

This is awesome.

This is great.

It was too expensive to keep propping it up because there wasn't any reason to do it.

They had already infiltrated the universities.

They were already well into creating the people that are now the people that we are today.

When you see that the Z generation, its view of

communism is higher and higher and higher.

In hindsight, we see what happened.

We didn't know at the time.

You and I are fat, dumb and happy.

You know, we just figured, hey, communism's done.

Bush, Reagan, rah, rah.

Didn't see it.

Didn't see it.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but sometimes it's depressing.

We have to interrupt this interview to go to our midway break.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

I'm Eric Nielsen and this is our second hour of interviews from this year's G3

conference in January.

In just a moment we'll return to the interview with Dr. James White.

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Now let's return to the.

Interview with Dr. James White.

Now when I have conversations with people in the broad spectrum of professed

Christianity that I do, there seems to be a

running thread throughout even if you want to include

independent fundamentalism, if you want to include critical race theory, and even

if you want to include churches that would fall among very confessionally

sound reform churches, there is a fear of what those

whose opinion you care about will think of you if you

depart from a certain train of thought.

And the fear of what kind of negative impact will fall upon you if you follow a

different thread that you believe to be biblical.

There are people I know who do not believe in their heart of hearts and the critical race theory

woke movement stuff, but they are afraid of the punishment they will receive from departing of it.

The same with my fundamentalist friends.

There was always a contest who could be more fundamentalist than the next guy, and there was

an underlying fear of what their friends would think if they actually started to take more seriously reform

theology.

And even amongst reformed people that are solid and I would not have any complaints with

the preaching and the teaching or the confessional statement or anything like that, but there is an underlying fear of

exploring something that they haven't thought of because of a fear of what those that they have most

close association with will think.

Now I understand there's a balance to be had because there should be a red light going on if everybody

that you know and respect is saying, wow that's off base, that's weird.

But how do you mesh that or how do you balance that with being a Berean?

Yeah, that balance is extremely difficult to maintain and if it is

a fear -based hesitation then that's probably problematic.

So in other words, in fundamentalism the fear is of anything that does not look like us and think like us.

But that comes out of, let's just be honest, an in -depth recognition

that I can't interact with these other perspectives, I don't understand them, I

only say they're wrong because that's what my tradition, and they don't use the term tradition but they understand what it means,

that's an extremely negative way.

But on the other side, the idea of the emergent church and

reinventing everything with every generation is the other side of the pitfall.

So staying in the middle requires you,

I sort of got my education in this by going to Fuller

because everybody there was to my left.

But I learned that there were a lot of really smart people over there that had thought a lot of things through, had a lot of

great facts, and I learned to hold on to the gems and let go of the

rocks.

And I learned to filter things appropriately without giving up the foundations upon

which my faith had been built.

That takes a lot of maturity, that takes time, it takes work, it takes effort.

And unfortunately there's just not a lot of people that these days want to necessarily invest

that kind of effort.

But we've never needed it more because as we as Christians are forced into a smaller

and smaller bit of acreage in the social area,

we're going to be running into viewpoints other than our own more and more often.

And the temptation either is to just respond with a right hook to the

nose of somebody else, or to give up your confessional boundaries and just become

marshmallow bits of nothing.

And keeping that balance.

Is one of the greatest challenges I think that we have.

And I don't want to overlook something that will be the topic of

our next two -hour interview that we have scheduled in just a couple of weeks.

Whether that, whether this interview airs before that or after, I'm not sure.

This is going to be a pre -recorded interview since we're conducting it on site at the G3 conference.

But there is a, I don't know if you want to say a rise

or a resurgence of professed Calvinists, which would

even include people who no longer use the word or the label Calvinist

because they no longer believe Calvin is amongst the number of the saved.

But you have those people that believe so intensely in what we

have called Tulip, the Five Points

of the Doctrines of Grace, etc.

They have come to believe that if you do not embrace

those five points, that you have a false gospel entirely and

that you are not a Christian, and if you are professedly Reformed and think that

Arminians or others outside of the Reformed camp can be saved, you are also

numbered amongst the damned.

From your knowledge of church history, was this something that was prevalent in thought in the

days of Calvin?

No, definitely not.

It.

Certainly does not represent Calvin's heart and his ability to

work together with and appreciate Zwingli or Luther or

Melanchthon or many others.

But it has reared its head in second and third generations,

not to the shallow level that we see today.

There is an ahistorical element to what we're seeing today.

The people that are promoting this doctrinal perfectionism are not really connected

in any meaningful fashion to even the second and third generations as far as

the Reformed Orthodox, Francis Turret and people like that.

But there is a strong tendency toward this.

Let's just be honest, knowledge puffs up.

And if you believe that you have come to understand something, the people around you just haven't been—well,

if you're truly Reformed, haven't been blessed by God to understand, it can still end up puffing

you up.

You've been chosen by God to have this knowledge.

And I've run into many people in that movement who do fundamentally say that they were not saved

until they came to this understanding.

So they are willing to actually sacrifice all their previous

Christian experience as being unregenerate.

So as to say, it wasn't until I understood all these interrelated realities.

So I believe firmly in particular redemption.

I really do.

But I was a Christian before I came to understand particular redemption.

And I was a Christian when I came as a very, very, very, very young child came to understand the most

rudimentary understanding of substitutionary atonement, that Jesus took my punishment upon himself.

He took my spanking as a child.

That's about as far as I can understand that.

These individuals are basically saying until you can see all the interrelated—sort of like until

you can understand perichoresis, which is the interpenetration and relationship of the

divine persons in the eternal trinity in light of the opera ad intra,

that you're not truly a Christian.

Well, if that's the case, Christ did not build his church because there's basically nobody been in it for a long, long time

because the vast majority of Christians have no idea what I was just talking about.

So yeah, it always ends up becoming

more and more and more narrow because you can always find something in someone else where they do

not understand something you think you understand.

And so eventually these people end up standing on one toe and drawing the circle around their big toe, and

that's the realm of the elect.

And that's a sad thing.

So they would say if you have an Arminian or non -Reformed

friend who is a professing Christian who says to you when you ask them,

why do you believe you are going to heaven?

They say, because I have put my trust in the perfect life,

the sinless life, the atoning death and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ,

the Son of God, the second person of the trinity.

That is where I put my hope and trust, and I know I'm going to heaven only because of that, not because of anything that I have

done.

They will still say, you know, that person is damned unless they believe in unconditional election.

Because they're not really telling the truth.

Because if they were fully consistent, then they would see all these connections that

are appropriate connections.

But I would say there are connections that come with maturity and sanctification.

Because there is, as you just hinted, there is a truth in the fact that Arminians and non

-Reformed Christians are not logically consistent.

Right.

You've heard me call it the blessed inconsistency.

And I think I stole that from R .C. if I recall correctly.

I think he referred to the blessed inconsistency of Arminians.

Because if you take Arminianism to its ultimate end, it becomes a

man -centered perspective.

There's no question about it.

I'm just so thankful that the vast majority of Arminians I know don't take it to its logical end.

They can't because grace doesn't allow them to.

And you would have to wonder what many of these people would think or say if you

asked them the question, are you still a Berean?

And do you believe that there is anything profound that will

revolutionize your thinking today that you have not yet learned from the Bible?

And why would you think you're saved now knowing that there could be something that you haven't learned yet that is

connected to all these wonderful things?

There is an astonishing level, I'll just be honest with you, an astonishing level of arrogance in the system.

There really is.

And I would like to hope, being a person who has led many people into the Reformed faith,

that I didn't do so in such a way as to exacerbate,

increase that tribe in any way.

I would hope that I have always emphasized the centrality of grace and that

it's only the Spirit of God opening your heart and your mind and giving you the grace to quell

rebellion in your heart to believe any of these things in the first.

Place.

Well, perhaps on another opposite end of the spectrum, it

has disturbed me, and I have conducted many interviews with Reformed people,

perhaps predominantly Reformed people on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, but it disturbs me

how frequently I wind up having to do damage control

by giving a caveat after something my guest will say that is...

I've heard you had to do three or four programs after having me on every time.

But this would be in particular...

Remember when I was boring, Chris?

Remember when I would never have even thought to try to make you laugh?

Yes, I do remember that very well.

You ruined me.

This is hilarious, too.

Yes, for those of you who don't know, I am the one who has the honorable reputation of

having given James White a gift of the sense of humor.

Sense of humor, yep.

And I had to have a sense of humor to recover from every one of your debate introductions, all the way

through the infant baptism debate, when I still love watching that when you go wandering back to

the baptistry and going, hey, look at this, it's a kiddie pool,

right in front of Bill Shishko, the Presbyterian debater who wanted to throw you in

headfirst.

By the way, that entire bit, except for the true story of

manning the book table...

Yes, I did see a Bible there, yeah.

Everything else was totally ad -lib.

Well, of course, of course, but your intro for the first debate was not.

Right, I was just speaking about the baptism.

Right, right, right, but you had worked on that first one, especially the letter that ended up

coming from your...

And grabbed some milk and some eggs on the way home.

I'm sorry, I completely threw you off there, but that's okay, yeah.

Hey, you're the guy that took me up in the Twin Towers, just not very long before...

That's right, about a year before.

Obviously, you just missed by a little bit.

Yes, in fact, I even remember saying to myself, there is no way this building could

fall.

I remember thinking that when I was up in the observation area, but what I was going to say is

the frequency with which I discover Reformed people

who I uphold as heroes, whose books I have loved to read, whose sermons I've loved to hear,

who are very, very soft on Rome, who have an ecumenical

understanding of Roman Catholics.

And I have had to, on the air, because I don't want people to be misled thinking I

agree with this, because it's a very deeply rooted opposition I have to Roman Catholicism,

especially having been raised Roman Catholic and having loved ones who are still Roman

Catholic and who have perished while remaining Roman Catholic.

It boggles my mind how these people could be so convinced and articulate in

defending and explaining the Doctrines of Grace, how they could very calmly and flippantly

use phrases like, and our dear Roman Catholic brothers, and who will lament

Pope Francis and looking fondly backward to the

days of Pope John Paul II, and

who is Cardinal Ratzinger again?

Benedict XVI.

That's right, Benedict XVI.

And I had to say to a guest, I said, well, as far as I'm concerned, every pope is a

repugnant thing in the eyes of God.

And in fact, I've said, I think that Pope Francis may be used of God to draw

more people out of the Catholic Church just because of the blatant...

Inconsistencies.

Yeah.

Yeah, right, right.

But how do you respond to that, with this love affair that many solidly

reformed people seem to have with Rome?

Most of them are too afraid to say that around me because they know where I stand.

So I don't run into it all that often.

But obviously, one of the issues is the difference between Northern and Southern Presbyterians,

because Northern Presbyterians have always accepted the validity of Rome's baptism.

And Southern Presbyterians have said, no, the gospel has to be the present.

Therefore, it's an invalid baptism.

So that has led to a denominationally oriented

willingness to look at Rome as a real expression of the church,

even if they don't any longer use the language of the reformed, like synagogues of Satan and things

like that.

But yeah, reformed doesn't necessarily mean I

am in agreement with the past debates that took place

and stuff like that.

And that's how they view it.

Instead of it being a gospel issue, instead of seeing the necessity to set up a pulpit on the far side

of the Tiber River and call for people to leave Rome, they see it as a

less profitable path, but still a valid path.

And to me, I can't not possibly see how the

reformers, seeing how Rome has continued in its rebellion

against the gospel for hundreds of years afterwards and has only gotten more vivid in

its gross...

I can't imagine what Calvin would have done with papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, and the bodily

assumption, which have been defined since they lived.

I mean, those would have been central to their apologetic against Rome back then.

And now that Rome continues to go that direction, I think they would have been even clearer in their

denunciations.

But look, there's a let's all

get along attitude out there.

And I don't understand it.

I don't understand how you can understand what the gospel is and then look at what Rome teaches, but a lot of them

don't know really what Rome teaches.

They may have some vague idea, but they don't really understand the concept of

Christ's the representation of that one sacrifice in an unbloody manner that

perfects no one.

We've gotten more into depth on the subject of the mass and the debates we did on Long Island than

most people in their seminaries do.

So a lot of them just don't like it.

Yes, and of course, I don't mean to give the wrong impression to our listeners that I believe every

single professedly Roman Catholic person is damned because there are Roman Catholic people who are that in name only,

who believe in the true gospel, either through their own ignorance of what Rome teaches or through some kind of

rebellion on their part.

They remain in the Roman Catholic Church while rebelling against their understanding of the dogmas of salvation.

But it's been a great pleasure having you squeeze some time in and during your busy schedule here at G3

to be on Iron Trip and Zion Radio and look forward to our next live interview on

Arminian's Save.

Yeah, just a little while.

Looking forward to it.

All right.

Thanks, brother. God bless.

I hope you enjoyed that interview.

At this time, we're going to take a break to hear from our sponsors.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I'm Eric Nielsen, and we are listening to interviews from the recent G3 Conference.

This next interview is with Marcus Pittman, the producer of the film Babies

Are Murdered.

Here.

Well, here I am again on site at the G3 Conference 2020 in Atlanta,

Georgia, at the Georgia International Convention Center, and I'm here with Marcus Pittman, who is the

producer of Babies Are Murdered Here 1 and 2, and

the latest Babies Are Murdered Here 2 is available on Amazon Prime.

It is, yeah.

And it's my honor and privilege to have you back on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, Marcus.

Pittman.

Thank you for having me, man.

It's a nice little setup you got here.

Yeah.

Well, the abortion issue is not only a vital issue.

It's not only a horrific stain on this nation, in fact,

globally, something that would no doubt

make us worthy of the harshest wrath of God poured upon

us, and he extends his towards this nation and other

nations across the globe that are guilty of promoting and

actively participating in infanticide.

But one of the things that makes it even more complicated is that even those who

believe that abortion is murder, even those that believe it is infanticide,

you have an approach to the abortion issue where you

actually criticize some fellow believers because you believe that their

approach to abortion is actually counterproductive.

Would I be accurate in saying that?

Well, I think that when we are discussing the issue of abortion that we need to be

focused on making sure that our message is gospel -centered, but also

our orthopraxy, our orthodoxy, of course, in dealing with abortion has to be gospel -centered,

but our orthopraxy has to be that way as well.

And if you could, in detail, explain exactly what you mean, how you believe some of those in the

pro -life movement would be incorrect and perhaps even in

serious error in involving their orthopraxy.

Well, yeah.

So one of the things is we don't want to

use the word murder when discussing abortion.

That was something we found when we were doing the first film because we had the signs that said, of course, that

babies are murdered here, and there was this big uproar over whether or

not we should even use the word murder at all to describe what was happening.

And as time went on, I think more pro -life ministries, Christian and non -Christian,

just began to embrace the word murder.

And then, of course, there comes the question of a woman who

has an abortion, is she guilty of murder?

And so you're seeing this come up a lot in pro -life legislation where they don't

want to, the pro -life

movements, when I say pro -life movements, I say the pro -life political lobbyist groups, the ones that are

funded and backed by the GOP, like the major pro -life lobbyist groups,

don't want to endorse any bill that would imply

some sort of criminal responsibility on the woman for seeking out an abortion.

So because in the pro -life lobbyist minds, they're just victims of their circumstances or victims of

whatever they've been taught by Planned Parenthood or public education or whatever.

But as a Christian, we know that people know that they're sinning against God.

They know they're in sin.

Their heart is deceitfully wicked and totally depraved.

And like as Romans 1 says, they're suppressing the truth and they're unrighteous.

So it's not that they don't, and also it's just silly because I've never heard a

woman who's pregnant deny that she's pregnant with a baby or whatever.

So you just never hear it.

So they know.

Women know that they're pregnant.

Women know that they have kids, that they're going to have a child.

Yes, even those in the media, the secular media, who

you know from other things that they have said and done in the media that they are in favor of abortion,

abortion rights.

When it comes to somebody carrying a child who wants that child, they

will chime in in celebration of this person and they will refer

to the baby that the person is carrying, they will call it a baby,

even though they are in other occasions in favor of a woman's right.

Even like, was it Michelle Williams who was at the Golden

Globes and she gave that speech about how if it wasn't for abortion, she wouldn't have gotten

this award.

As she's pregnant with a baby, she's on stage talking about how thankful she is

for abortion.

So there's obviously not a time where she didn't realize that there was a baby inside her that she

was killing.

That's what the second movie, Babies Are So Murdered Here, seeks to show is that

our legislation, there's no neutrality.

There's no way to make a law that's unbiased.

So when we make abortion laws, we need to make them as Christians too and we need to

support Christian laws.

So part of that is demanding justice on

women who carry out and have abortions and murder their children, as well as the abortion doctrine.

But in the pro -life movement, you have organizations, let's say like Abby Johnson, for example, and

then there were none, which spends a tremendous amount of time and effort

in actually coming around and saying that those who work at the abortion clinics or those who

are abortion doctors are also victims.

They can't get a good job, this is the job that they have, or whatever.

That's the sort of mentality we're trying to step away from and say, look, when

abortion happens, someone is a criminal and someone is a victim.

And to make it that everybody's a victim is just silly and you're not going to make it illegal if

there's no bad guy.

Sort of, I guess you could say, misplaced compassion?

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Well, I think it's too, it's misplaced compassion, but it's also like sort of like, it's like a foe,

it's a foe humility, where it's like, well, you know, we just, you know,

everyone's a sinner and that, I mean, you know, and grace goes to the abortion doctor and then

abortion nurses too.

But nobody denies that.

Like nobody denies that abortion doctors can be saved.

Nobody denies that abortion nurses can be saved.

No one denies that.

The issue is, what should the government do with this crime,

right?

So, so you wouldn't say because everybody's a sinner, we

shouldn't punish rapists anymore.

Right.

Right?

We would say, well, no, no, grace can be extended to a rapist, but he still needs, there's consequences

for your sin.

Right.

And so the confusion in the pro -life lobbyist groups is that because they're Roman Catholic and

it's just, grace is just, grace is just poured out and they

just don't have an understanding of justice and grace and works.

And like, you know, so, so it, it does interfere with, let's say the work of Protestant

pro -life groups and stuff like that.

So tell us about some of the responses to

babies are murdered here, one and two, and how those responses have

developed even with political activism in regard to the life of the unborn.

I mean, like just being here at, um, at G3, I've had, this is my first time I've been to this conference.

It almost feels like, did you ever go to any of the deeper conferences?

Like the way the master conferences that they had way back in the day?

No.

It almost feels like that.

It's really cool.

But, uh, it's, uh, a lot of people have come up to me and said that they've seen the movie and

because they've seen the movie, they're engaging and being active and, and that's good because I, cause I, I

like the fact that Christians are making media or there's films that

when people watch, they don't just watch sit on the couch and watch it and then just forget about it.

But like the movie's actually moving them to go and do something and to be all, be involved and be

active.

You see a lot of that here at G3.

A lot of people have come up to me, uh, and said they've seen the film.

And so that's, that's pretty, I mean, you never know, like you make a movie and you put it out there, but you never know,

like how many babies are going to be saved as a result of like people watching this movie and then going out to their own abortion clinic.

Like I'll never know that number on this side of eternity anyway.

But it's cool.

It's cool to think about.

Yeah.

Now, I know that you're post -millennialist, so you are, you have a confidence

that, uh, things are going to be much better than they are now in regard to abortion and especially in regard

to the salvation of souls.

Yeah.

But what can you tell us about what you see in regard to,

uh, legal abortion, uh, that gives you tangible

reasons for better things to come now?

Well, I think, um, the first thing I would say is, is

that, well, uh, George Grant has a book called Third Time Around and it's the

history of the pro -life movement all the way back to the early church.

So this is the third time around, like this is the third time that we've, I believe that's the name of his

book.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

So this sounds like a George Grant title.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's, it's the history of the pro -life movement.

And, and, and, and so this isn't the first time the Christian church have,

have dealt with legal abortion.

But we've seen time and time again, it's only been the Christian church that have stopped.

It.

And so it's different forms in history, right?

This is like a, a, a, a medical clean

sort of sterile version of abortion is what we're seeing now.

Whereas, you know, in the, in the past they would do drug concoctions and, you know, women would risk

their lives to have abortions and stuff in ways, grotesque ways that don't happen

now.

But each time it's been the Christian church that's risen up and put a stop to it.

And I think the, the, the legal, the fact that it's legal, I think

allows the church to see, hey, something isn't right in our nation.

Like something isn't, there's something not right with the Christian church that they can allow this to

happen.

Pastors being too complacent or that people just go to church on Sunday and like that's

their view of Christianity.

Whereas like their Christianity doesn't produce good works.

It's just, you know, them going to church on Sunday.

And so, so the legal aspect of it is, is, is a way in which God is using in his providence to,

to, to wake up the Christian church and to get them involved in, you know, not just, you

know, abortion industry, but you know, sex trafficking and, and, and

adoption and all these other things that are, that are just tied to it.

It's all to bring about the Christian church and stuff.

So what, what are you most excited about that you have seen, especially in regard

to states and governors in regard

to wanting to end abortion and preserve

the life of the unborn and so on?

What good news can you report?

Things that have happened or are developing.

Well, in Ohio, there's the, the, is it the

free, free the states?

I think it's called or abolition.

Now it's going to be at Ohio.

I don't have the exact dates, but it's in February.

And you can go to freethestates .com and you can free the states.

Yeah.

Freethestates .com the information is there.

And then, and then there's going to be a huge rally in Ohio to make a bill

that completely ends abortion in Ohio.

And there's actual state legislators like Joseph Silk, for

example, who's part of that organization, who's a state legislator, and he wants

to end abortion completely, not legislate it, not put regulations on it, but actually get

rid of it.

We see in Texas, people like John Speed are working to,

to write laws, sanctuary city laws that are good and not

like, not bad to the problem we have is that Christians might get together and they might write a piece of

legislation and present it to their state legislator.

And then you have the pro -life lobbies that come and then they just eat away at it and put their red pen all over it.

And then by the time it gets to the floor, that's not even the bill the Christians had.

So for an example of that would be, there's a sanctuary city in Texas.

I don't remember where it was, but they wanted to enact a sanctuary city

as a means to prevent Planned Parenthood from, because Planned Parenthood was looking to build a place in their city.

So they created the sanctuary city laws, sanctuary city law, and

the pro -life movement got a

allowed, like RU486 and morning after pills to be exempt from

the sanctuary city.

So, but it was already legal, like RU486 and those things were already legal

before the sanctuary city resolution.

But now, because of the pro -life lobbies, those RU486 are codified into law and

protected by law.

So now if you want to get rid of those, you have to make another law to get rid of that

one and then make a law that says it's illegal.

So you've got to do double the work now.

So that's kind of what, but still the sanctuary cities are happening and I think

it's only going to be a matter of time before there's a good sanctuary city bill that's passed

probably in Texas or somewhere and they're going to force CVS and Walmart and Walgreens

to stop carrying birth control and all the other stuff.

That'll be, that'll be when it really matters when you see that happen.

So I don't think it'll, I think this year will be the year we see something like that.

Wow.

So going back a bit to something I mentioned earlier about different

approaches that are taken advantage of

or operated by some within the pro -life movement with whom you disagree.

Would you say that there is too much pragmatism involved, too much

timidity or fear that if you go overboard, quote, quote,

in trying to preserve the life of the unborn by calling it what it is, murder, and

by holding those who commit these crimes of murder, both doctors and the

women involved, that you are going to actually be counterproductive

in bringing about the collapse or the end of abortion?

Yeah.

I think, I think the problem is when we're talking about matters of abortion and stuff

like that, we don't believe in the sovereignty of God to change

people's hearts.

So it's all based on the, well, we got to win them to our side.

You know, that goes, that gets into presuppositional apologetics, too, where we got to win, we just show them enough evidence and they'll,

you know.

One of the scenes in Babies Are Still Murdered here is, I don't know if you've seen

it, but in Babies Are Still Murdered here, there's a clip of R .C. Sproul.

And he's, you know, his book, Abortion, a rational look at an emotional

issue.

And R .C. Sproul Jr. asked him, why'd you name it that?

And R .C. Sproul says, well, I was naive at the time that I thought I could present

just the evidence that abortion was the taking of a human life

and people would do it.

And then, and he says, but that hasn't been the case.

People are now, they know it's a human life and they're still taking it.

And so, which is interesting because, you know, R .C. Sproul debated Bonson on presuppositional and evidentialism.

And in fact, he co -authored a book with John Gerstner against presuppositionalism.

Yeah, but here he is when he's talking about the abortion issue saying, yeah, the evidence didn't really help.

It was, it was, so, so I do think, I mean, it all, it all boils down to theology.

Like our theology can't be in a vacuum.

Like it, it affects how we deal with politics or abortion apologetics and all that.

Like understanding the reformed, sovereign view of God really like makes a difference.

And that's why the Catholics, they're not gonna, they're not gonna

end it.

You know, they're more than happy to keep working and keep working because that's, you know, scoring points for them.

Now, as far as the responses that you have heard about

regarding people changing their minds over murdering their babies, what can you tell us

about that.

And directly linked to babies are murdered here, one and two.

And even the, the evangelistic efforts at abortion mills

that you have cooperated in with Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church.

Why don't you say the question one more time?

Because I got distracted.

The power went out.

Yes, the power went out for the second time here at the Georgia International Convention Center.

But thankfully we are battery operated at the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio booth.

But as far as people that you are aware of who were intending to murder their children

through abortion, but came to a change of heart after either viewing

babies are murdered here one or two, and you could even combine this with the

responses of people changing their minds after being confronted

by Jeff Durbin and yourself during one of the evangelistic efforts

that I know that, that Apologia Church has been actively involved in for a number of years

at abortion mills.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, just telling people the truth that, you know, you're going

to murder your baby today, you're going to be the mother of a dead baby.

I mean, we've had, we had babies saved this week at the abortion clinic in Arizona.

There was a, there was a message about it.

So, so there was a lady who was just out there today.

There was a, there was a post I saw of a lady who was screaming she did not want

to murder her baby, but her husband was like arguing with her and then she eventually got in her car and

left.

And so, so it happens.

I think Christians just need to be out there and understand that, like, you're not going, you're not going to be able

to, to, to stop someone from murdering their child.

If you ask John Barrows how many babies he saved out in Florida, he'll say none.

But God saved, you know, over 3000 of them since he's been out there and stuff like that.

So, so saving, saving the child's life, stopping someone from sinning

is all based on the sovereignty of God and not based on, you know,

smooth talk and arguments.

Right.

But of course he uses us as means through which

babies are murdered here and the evangelistic efforts of Apologia Church and other churches throughout the

nation and the world when they are confronting those who are intending to murder their

children.

God uses those efforts in his sovereignty and providence to change minds and hearts.

And so what can you tell us about what you have

planned, if anything, on the horizon in regarding to the, the same efforts you're involved

in now?

Is there a Babies Are Murdered Here 3 on the horizon or anything else that you?

Well, my, my, my hope is that Babies Are Murdered Here 3 will, will be about how abortion was ended.

Right.

So that'll, you know, be the, the, the trilogy there, but,

but this year I'm going to be working on sort, like

the, the, the plan is to, I'm going to travel a lot and really make a bunch of short little

biopics and little tiny, sort of like Vice.

If you ever watch Vice News and they have these like five minute news clips about this or that.

I want to, I want to go and document other people that are involved in the abortion fight and

sort of shine light on others and, and, and stuff like that.

In addition, I want to train other churches and

organizations how to use camera equipment and media to start their own abortion

ministry.

And then, because, because it can't just be apology, it can't just be end abortion now.

It has to be a lot more than that.

So, so, and so if we can train other churches and organizations to be posting,

using social media and posting content, it'll just expand how many people all become

aware of what's happening in the abortion clinics.

And I think that'll be a good thing.

So I'm going to give a shout out to my friends at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New

York.

My friends, Pastor Rich Jensen and his new co -elder or recent

co -elder, I should say Pastor Christopher McDowell, who both serve there.

They have appreciated your ministry and the ministry of Apology of Church as well in your

efforts to prevent women from getting their babies murdered.

I wanted to give a shout out to them because I want those who hear this program,

who have their own outreaches, evangelistic efforts that they are involved in

at abortion mills, I want them to be further equipped to do that job more

effectively.

Or perhaps they haven't even started an effort like that or a work like that.

They want to.

How could you help them not only to start something, but even to improve something that

is already existing?

How do they get a hold of you?

How do they get a hold of Babies Are Murdered Here 1 and 2, etc.?

If you go to inabortionnow .com, we have an application that you can fill out with your church

and all you need is elder approval.

So if your pastors or elder approve of you being out of the abortion clinic and they agree

that they're going to provide some oversight, not run the thing, but they're just going to be there to disciple

you and mentor you as you do it, then you can get an In Abortion Now kit,

which has all the signs you need to be out of the abortion clinic, has Babies Are Murdered Here signs, has We'll Adopt Your Baby

signs, and then we give you gospel tracks and stuff like that.

And so if you just go to In Abortion Now.

But also, we just launched at In Abortion Now, this sort of,

it's almost like its own social media website, but it's not on Facebook, but it's

like you can post questions and then other churches can come and give answers.

And then there's photos of babies that have been saved and reports of what's happening.

And it's all on this private website with In Abortion Now that you get to become a part of when you sign up.

And so that's been really awesome to see people, even people in

the same state that live close to each other that didn't know that they were signed up.

So you can do that.

So go to In Abortion Now dot com.

You can skid a packet like that.

And then if you want to watch Babies Are Still Murdered Here, it's available on Amazon Prime.

So please watch that and leave a review and share that with your friends.

It helps out a lot.

Great.

Well, Marcus, I look forward to having you back on the program and tell Pastor Jeff Durbin that I'm

eagerly awaiting his return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio to discuss the miracles

involved in the adoption of his new son.

Augustine.

Yes.

And Augustine Gideon?

I think so.

Yeah.

August Gideon.

I haven't met him yet.

I'm recovering from open heart surgery.

So we went to, after I had open heart surgery, we got permission to fly and

we've spent the last two, three weeks in Virginia with my

family.

And so I'm just coming out of recovery from that.

Yes.

I'm looking forward to meeting him.

Yeah.

It gives you an idea of how recent this is, folks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's pretty recent.

So.

Well, God bless you, brother.

And let's not wait too long to have you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me, Chris.

God bless.

I hope that you found these interviews today to be profitable.

Please listen to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio over the next few days as we have several more interviews from

the 2020 G3 Conference.

And as Chris always says, I hope that you remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far,

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.