Mormon Conversation- Manti Pageant 2015

Okay, all right. So what's your name? I'm Jacob Johnson. All right. So you're a Mormon? Yep. Got the name badge to prove it.

All right. So let me ask you, why are you a Mormon? I'm a Mormon because it makes me happier than the alternative side.

What's the alternative? The alternative for me is probably atheism.

When I was younger, I left the church. I left because, you know, you do what you do, you follow what your parents tell you, and you get to a point where you've got to do what you want to do.

All right. So let me ask you. I came back into it, obviously. So you believe in Mormonism all the way? Yes.

Okay. So you believe God used to be a man in another world? Yes. And that he has a goddess wife? It depends on the way you use it, but I will say yes.

Okay. And that you can become a god of your own planet, potentially? Potentially. If you keep all the laws and commandments?

Well, through grace and Jesus Christ. Okay. So let me ask you. Are you forgiven of all your sins?

I ask for forgiveness quite frequently because I keep sinning. Okay. Are you forgiven of all your sins? Yeah. Okay.

So then the Bible says, or excuse me, 2 Nephi 25 -23 says, you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do.

Are you doing all you can do? No, but I'm not saved because of all I do. No, it says after.

Yeah, but after all you can do, you're not doing it all. Well, because obviously I'm not saved right now. I mean, I haven't reached heaven yet.

Right now I'm living on earth. I can't be fully, completely saved in the sense of salvation without having first died and being judged.

Okay. Do you know what justification is? I've heard the term, but everyone uses it a little bit differently. Well, I know the biblical definition.

Okay. The biblical one. Right. Justification is a legal declaration of righteousness where the righteousness of Christ is imputed or reckoned to us.

You can find that in Romans 4, verses 1 -5. What benefit was our father

Abraham having? For if he was justified by faith, what benefit is that? I forgot the exact words.

It goes in verse 3. It says, Reckoned to him.

Considered to him to be righteousness. Now to the one who does not work, but believes, his faith is reckoned as righteousness in Romans 4 -5.

Paul is teaching us that righteousness is by faith without any works. We put our faith and trust in Jesus completely.

That means we're legally then declared righteous. So Philippians 3 -9 says that we have a righteousness that's not our own.

So that's what forgiveness is. That's what justification means. It has to do with the law. So are you justified before God right now?

Yeah, I can say I am. So then all of your sins are forgiven. Yes. So you don't sin anymore? No, I keep on sinning.

Okay. And so doesn't the Book of Mormon say in Moroni 10 -32 that if you deny yourself of all ungodliness, then is

God's grace sufficient for you? Yes. So have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? I have. You have.

All ungodliness. So you don't sin anymore. Well, all ungodliness means I actively am striving to put it behind me.

Oh, so you've not denied. You're trying. You haven't done it yet. No, I did it. But I'm human. I'm weak. I'm not able to keep to my commitments like God is because I'm not like God is.

God's able to keep those commitments. I'm trying to find my Book of Mormon in Dr. Kevin's name. We'll go to D &C 132. If you've got

D &C 132, it'd be really good to read. We should have you read that. Then we'll go to D &C 82 -7. Then we'll see what you think about the

Mormon system of having your sins forgiven. Okay. All right. D &C 132.

That's Doctrine and Covenants 132. Go ahead and read that.

Yep. Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments, and he that repents not, from him shall he take and eat.

For my spirit shall not always strive with man, say it not to your foes. Okay, now go to D &C 82 -7.

So you've got to repent and keep the commandments. That's D &C 132. And 82 -7 says,

And now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge. Go your ways and sin no more.

But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return. Like I was saying. So if you keep sinning, all your former sins return to you.

So you said you're still sinning. Yep. So you're not justified according to your system. You're still in a state of damnation.

Well, because I am in a constant state of repentance. It's a way that I live my life because of my faith in Jesus Christ. Then you've not denied yourself of all ungodliness, per Moroni 10 -32.

You're not keeping the commandments as required, per D &C 132. And that means all the former sins return to you, per D &C 30, oh, this could be 82 -7.

So how can you be, have any hope? It's a way you interpret Moroni 10 -32. I rely on the way the prophet does.

Well, actually, Kimball said, I forgot what page, he says you have to deny yourself of all ungodliness and never commit those sins again.

Which is impossible to do. Which is why I'm grateful I have Jesus Christ. Well, that's what the Mormon system is. If the

Mormon system says to do that... God requires perfection. Yes, he does. And who's the only one who can be perfect?

Jesus Christ. Good. Oh, and of course himself, God. Yeah, but Jesus is perfect, never sinned, 1

Peter 2 -22. So shouldn't we then just trust in everything Jesus did and not our own works in any way? Yeah, I perform my works because of the trust

I have in Christ. If I didn't have any trust in him, I would be in a state of hopelessness and I wouldn't act, I wouldn't give up.

Then you disagree with 2 Nephi 25 -23, which says you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do.

By the interpretation that you're giving, yes, I would disagree. I just quoted it. What does it say? 2

Nephi 25 -23. After all you can do. After all you can do. I think it's more of a because of all we can do. It doesn't say because.

No, it doesn't. It says after. But realize the time frame that it was translated into was the 1830s.

The way we use language today is very much different from that. So does the word saved mean the same thing?

After mean the same thing? All mean the same thing? Well, saved means different things to different people as well. We talk about seven different types of salvation.

There's salvation from ignorance, which is when you've been taught the gospel. You can't be saved from ignorance if you don't know the gospel. There's people who don't know

Jesus Christ that have never heard the name Jesus Christ. They're not saved. Do you know that context in 2

Nephi 25 -23? I wouldn't say I'm an expert on it. Okay, it's salvation, forgiveness of sins.

After all you can do. But you haven't done all you can do. No. And D &C 132 says you can't be saved in your sins.

1137 says that. You've got to keep those commandments. And if you don't keep them, D &C 827 says all your sins come back on you.

That's pretty bleak. So basically what you're saying is you are presently right now, because of the

Mormon gospel, in a state of damnation. That's what you're saying. That's what your documents say. That's what the documents read to you.

It certainly does. You just read what it says. That's why you're here, right? Yeah, because that's a false gospel. There's no hope for you.

I've got hope. What's your hope? My hope is to be with my Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ. Okay.

So Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth. Yes. Matthew 28 -18, right? Mm -hmm. Can you pray to Jesus?

Can you pray to Jesus? Well, in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi. 19 -18. Jesus Christ is there. He's praying.

And he says, he turns and goes off on his own for a second when they're praying to him. And he says, Father, they're praying to me because I'm with them right now.

Okay. But when I leave, they'll understand. All right. Well, in Acts 7, 55 -60,

Steve is being stoned. There's a vision of God the Father, the glory of God. And he addresses his prayer to Jesus.

The glory of God. The glory of the Father. It doesn't say he saw the Father. It says he saw the glory of. Uh -huh. Okay. So do they not see him as a personage?

No, they didn't. Because... I'll just shift gears here. You know why? Why? Jesus says in John 6 -46, that no man hath seen the

Father. Yeah, that's right. At any time. And Paul the Apostle said in 1 Timothy 6 -16, he says that the

Father, speaking of God the Father, does an unapproachable light whom no man has seen, nor can see.

So did Joseph Smith see the Father? That was bad. I was about to say that to you. Did he? I say, you know,

I can testify. I know that. The Spirit's told me. You know what? I know that Joseph Smith saw God the Father. But Paul the

Apostle says no. Paul does not say that. Yes, he does. 1 Timothy 6 -16. What about Exodus 33 -11?

33 -11. They see God face to face. In Exodus 33 -20, you cannot see my face. And then later on where he says, I'm not going to show you my face as I have previously done.

Exodus 33 -20. But I will only show you my back because of my anger, lest you be destroyed. Right. In Exodus 6 -2 -3,

God spoke further to Moses, said to him, I am Yahweh, and I appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty. They see

God in the Old Testament, but it's never the Father. We can also go to Genesis 17 -1, 18 -1, Exodus 24 -9 -11.

Because Jesus Christ acts as proxy for them. Yeah. They never see the Father. They see God Almighty, who's not the

Father. They see Jesus, pre -incarnate Jesus in the Old Testament. That's what the Bible says.

It connects differently. Yeah. So Paul said, the Father dwells in an unapproachable light whom no man has seen nor can see.

So you don't believe the Apostle of Jesus Christ himself. Maybe we have a different understanding of it.

Well, that's what it says in 1 Timothy 6 -16. Speaking of God the Father, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen nor can see.

Right there. Which one? 16. Right there. And we'll go to verse 15.

Which Jesus? This is King James. King James, okay. So, did

Joseph Smith see the Father when the Bible says he can't be seen? So, who's correct? Did Moses see God when he was told that he spoke to God face to face?

Yeah, he saw the pre -incarnate Jesus. Is not Jesus God? Jesus is not

God the Father. This is what he's talking about. Because Jesus has been seen. It's not God the Father.

And Jesus says in John... This isn't the King James. Oh, sorry. That's the same thing. And the

King... It's okay. He's good. He's a little bit of a different language. A little bit, but that's alright. But the thing is that Jesus says not that any man has seen the

Father except the one who's from God. He has seen the Father. He knows about the people seeing God in the Old Testament. And Jesus is saying it's not the

Father. So, when you go back and you quote those, you know and I know it's not the Father. And Paul the

Apostle says the Father can't be seen. So, did Joseph Smith see him? Yeah. So, here's a question.

Why would you believe something contrary to what God has revealed? Because...

I mean, I wouldn't, I suppose. You do. I just showed you the verse talking to the Father. He cannot be seen.

Is one verse more important than the whole? God doesn't contradict Himself. And how many times has God got to say something for it to be true?

So, where does the Bible come from then? How do we know it's God gave it through the prophets and the apostles and there are no more prophets.

God continues to give through the prophets and the apostles. It's a testimony I have. Well, except that God won't

God won't contradict Himself. But Paul the Apostle Paul the Apostle said

God cannot be seen. So, God the Father cannot be seen. So, can He be seen? Yes.

So, why do you contradict God's Word? Because there's a lot of ways that what Paul said can be interpreted.

Give me one. Well, first off, maybe a mistranslation. I read the Greek and I can tell you that's exactly accurate what it says.

Do you read Aramaic? No. And it wasn't written in Aramaic as Greek. I had four and a half years of Greek in college and seminary.

I've gone through that text in the Greek and it is what it says. I'm being honest with you that is exactly what it says. But when was that text written? Was it written while Christ was walking the earth?

No, no, no. 10, 20, 30 years after these people actually spoke with Christ. It was written by Paul the

Apostle who was called by Jesus in Acts chapter 9. Is he infallible? Paul, when he's writing

Scripture? Yes. How do we know that it's Scripture? Saved by the Spirit. The Spirit is what illuminates and allows us to understand it.

How do you know that? I know that because I've learned how it feels. Wait, wait. Where did you get the idea that the Spirit is the one that tells you this stuff?

Where did you get it? Galatians 5. So, the Scriptures. So, in other words, you'll go to the

Scripture. That's an evidence of proof. It's an evidence of proof. I was talking about this with another guy earlier. The evidence of proof. The prophets used

Scriptures all the time to say this is an evidence of what I'm saying. But there's an inconsistency. But there's no need to quote Scripture. There's an inconsistency.

Because they are prophets in Revelation. But even Paul quotes Scriptures from the Old Testament. And Jesus said the Law and the

Prophets were until John, John the Baptist, Luke 16, 16. So, no more prophets. That's a matter of interpretation as well.

It's what it says. The Law and the Prophets were until John. So, who led Christ's church after he was killed?

The Holy Spirit. Jesus himself. He did. See, your problem, I'm not trying to be nice, but the thing is you're not believing the

Word. You're not believing the Word of God. Isn't that sad? That's why. See, when

God... So, in your opinion, can someone who is in the Mormon faith have faith in Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved?

No. Because the object of your faith is false. If, for example, you make a huge mistake and put your faith

Big bad mistake. That'd be very bad. You have all the faith in the world in me. It'd be a bad choice on your part. But so what?

Faith is only as good as who you put it in. So, if the object of your faith is false, your faith is useless.

Thankfully, I don't have faith in Joseph Smith. Thankfully, I don't have faith in those people. I've got faith in Jesus Christ. A. Jesus, who's a brother of the devil, begotten through sexual relations between God and his goddess wife who came from another planet.

That was a lot. Slow it down and I'll try to comment on it. Okay. God, your God, is an exalted man.

Yes. From another world. Okay. So what do we call what do we call a life form from another planet?

Alien. So you worship an alien and its mate as God and goddess.

Purposefully. There it is. Purposefully. Deceptive. Not deceptive. It's to make me sound ridiculous. Not deceptive.

It's to show you from a different way. By definition, that is technically what I believe in. Okay. And I'm proud to say that.

But, using the word choice, you know, those negative connotations of words. When you say illegal alien, they change it to immigrant now.

Because, you know, it's very offensive. Things like that. That's right.

I certainly did. You use the phrase to justify what you call an alien. Well, yeah.

Man, that guy smashed this Mormon kid. I'll get it. I want you to know who Jesus really is. Who is he?

Jesus is the creator of the universe. He's not a created thing. In Colossians chapter 1 verses 15 through 17 says he's the creator of all things.

Everything invisible, visible, whatever it is, invisible. He's the one who is the creator of all things.

By definition, then, he couldn't be the Mormon Jesus who is himself a creation. And God the

Father in Mormonism created the heavens and the earth supposedly through Jesus. Yeah. Except, in Isaiah 44, 24 it says that God creates all things alone by himself.

No one was with him. No one was with him. No one heard the word. No one was with God. No one heard the word. Word was God. No one was created save it was through the word.

And he created all things, John 1, 3. So Jesus is the creator of all things, but in Mormonism he's not.

I wasn't aware of that. I've always believed that he was the creator of all things. So the other planets, the other gods, the other things, so Jesus is the creator of all of them?

Well, there's a reference to time and location as well. You know, you can talk about the creation, this creation.

You know, let us go down, there's matter and form. Let us go down? Yeah, that's Genesis 11, 7.

But that's the issue of the Trinity because God says he has become like one of us. That's 11, 7 talking about that.

In Genesis 1, 26, let us make man in our image. Yeah, and the hour has to do with the image of God. Not that he's being six feet tall and body flesh and bones.

all of Christianity? To bring glory to God. God's glory. To enjoy him. Not to become a god.

Not to go out and have relations with your goddess wife forever and, you know, not to be disrespectful, but that's not the purpose of it.

Our purpose as Christians is to bring glory to the Lord God, the true living God, the only true being who is

God. As God himself says in Isaiah 43, 44, and 45, there's no God before him, none

God, no God created after him. He doesn't even know of any other gods. That's it, just one. And you serve one of many.

You know, I suppose contrary. My belief in God's purpose is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life.

He's brought joy not because just he exists. His joy is in his children.

His joy is in helping us to become magnificent. His joy is in bringing glory to himself because there's no one greater than him.

And because he loves us. a selfish God. I'm very selfish. He is the greatest. He worships himself.

No, he doesn't. What were you just saying a second ago? His joy is to bring the greatest glory to himself because he is the greatest object of worship.

And in so doing... I'll have to wrap it up in about five minutes. And in so doing... Me too. In so doing, he redeems people.

It's his loving act. John 3, 16, God's love of the world he gave. He loves and he gives and he sacrifices.

But he's the greatest object of worship. The greatest being that there is. And so we are obligated to worship him in truth.

And if you have a false god, an exalted man... You can't worship him in truth. That's exactly right. You're not worshiping him.

That's exactly right. And that's what we say about Mormonism. Because Joseph Smith who said he saw the

Father and the Bible says he did not and could not. And you're believing... Sorry, but you're believing him over the

Word of God. You are therefore under a... I guess you could say a spirit of deception. Because you're refusing to believe what the clear

Word of God strictly tells us. The Father cannot be seen. And so you believe in a false god, false

Christ, and a false gospel. Hence the issue with the D &C 132, D &C 82 .7,

which tells us that your gospel is insufficient because you're not able to keep the commandments. You're not able to do those things because your

God doesn't give you the true gospel. The true gospel is this. One God in all existence.

He came down and became one of us. He took our sin on His body and the cross. He died. He lived the law perfectly.

And all we've got to do to be forgiven of our sins is ask Jesus to forgive us of our sins. Just trust in Jesus.

Ask Him. Talk to Him. Pray to Him. You can't do that in Mormonism. But the Jesus of the Bible is prayed to. He's prayed to in 1

Corinthians 1 verse 2. There's a phrase, called upon the name of the Lord, which in the Old Testament is a prayer,

Psalm 116 .4. They pray to God. They call upon the name of Yahweh. They call upon the name of the

Lord, Jesus. They pray to Jesus. He has all authority in heaven and earth, Matthew 28 .18. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins.

But if you do that, you have to abandon the Mormon principle of going through Jesus, not to Him.

The Jesus of the Bible is prayed to. And the Jesus of the Bible reveals the Father, Matthew 11 .27.

So if you don't have the Jesus of the Bible, you won't have the Father of the Bible. Normally you have the

Holy Spirit of the Bible, because Jesus sends the Holy Spirit who brings witness of truth, John 14 .26,

John 15 .26. So if you don't have Jesus, everything else is wrong. And you can't even pray to the

Jesus of the Bible, who is a true Jesus. You can't pray to Him if you don't have Him. Right?

That's why Mormonism is not true. If you have the true Jesus, then you can pray to Him just like they did in the

Bible. Can you do that? Can you pray to Jesus and ask

Him to forgive you of all of your sins? Right now. Well, you guys heard it here first. Mormonism is not true.

So, take the challenge, read the Book of Mormon, read the Bible, compare it yourself. Come talk to this guy.

What's your email? Just kidding. Mattatcom .org. That's what it is. Mattatcom .org. Moroney1034 says, pray about these things to see if it's not true.

See if it's not true. Not true. See if it's not true. Test it. Not true. My email, bradjacobjohnson at gmail.

You can hit me up. Hey, Brad. Nice talking to you, man. Absolute pleasure. Alright. Thank you.