June 14, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Opening Remarks and the Debate Aftermath

And welcome to dividing line Tuesday morning 11 a .m. Out here in the Mountain West it was only a three hour difference back there in the east and any more three hours is pretty much.

Irrelevant.

It was the nine-hour shift from Italy that threw me the curve. Feel great today. First time I've actually felt great in weeks now. And I'm glad for that got a chance to get on the bike and ride this morning.

It's only gonna be a hundred and seven degrees here in Phoenix today. But it wasn't half bad this morning because let me tell you something. I was back there and it was humid in Massachusetts in New York and New Jersey.

Black black black you can have the humidity. I don't want it. Yeah, give me give me a hundred and five degrees and dry over 90 degrees and 90 humidity any day blah. No, thank you. It is it is nice out here.

Anyway. Hey, I Just went over to the Envoy magazine the web forums. The meltdown continues. Evidently Bill Rutland and art Sippo together and.

Their.

Small band of followers absolutely positively Have no interest whatsoever in Saying anything to anybody who reasons in a logical or rational fashion. I mean the the number of pure falsehoods logical contradictions and an utterly vacuous reasoning.

That has been posted on the internet since last Thursday absolutely leaves me Amazed. I just I cannot I cannot believe this stuff. I log on here and Bill Rutland has has posted whites hysterics. Hi gang.

I'm getting a bit tired of James's hysterics. If he wants to keep going postal about our debate well let him I have another debate in November that I must prepare for. When my kids were young and we put them to sleep they would cry in protest.

We found the best way to handle it was just to let them cry. Good night, James. So if you've actually met the only reason this type of stuff works is because he's trusting That the people who read this stuff don't read The other side they're not going to read their books and I can listen to the debates.

They're not going to read their blog. They're not gonna They're not going to listen to both sides. The only people that could possibly Buy this type of thing. How many errors have I documented so far and what Bill Rutland has said?

Here's here's a man who's talking about my hysterics and yet he on His web is it's talking about how his wife feared for his life. He stays there he's one last people leave when we left 1240 ish. I think I was asking I was asking rich about this about 1240 ish and we left he was talking like two people all the chairs had been taken up and There was like two or three people over there and a group of us left.

We just finished packing everything out. But you know we did with and with people's help, you know rich rich mentioned that John Doxwell I didn't put the name together with with the person at the debate.

I wish I had I probably talked with him a little bit more than I did but Huge Roman Catholic police officer who comes to all these debates. When I say huge, he's not actually a fact. I think I may be taller than John is I'm not sure.

But he is a weightlifter. He is a bodybuilder. He's got at least 20 inch 21 inch guns. And that's that's not his service pistol. We're talking about there and He and some of the other Roman Catholics helped rich with like, you know, we shipped four speakers out there.

We did the house sound remember the house sound past few years. We've been having problems. Okay, you know places like townhouses just don't do a good job with sound when you put those stupid little round speakers Up in the ceiling.

You're not gonna get good sound out of that and people need to be able to hear. They shouldn't be struggling to hear you shouldn't have feedback issues all the rest that stuff. So this year we bought the speakers we shipped them out there rich spent 14 hours in that room getting it all Set up and it took a long time to break that stuff down.

So I you know for Rutland to be said he just signed a few books and left. The debate was over in 11 I leave an hour and 40 minutes later with everybody else and that's signing a few books and leaving well if if he was afraid of his for his life, why why did he why was he with the last people leave and If I had John Doxwell sitting sitting standing next to me, I wouldn't be afraid for my life.

That's like having Eddie Dalkor staying next to me. I'm not afraid of my life with Eddie Dalkor staying next to me. That's you know, that's it. That's not gonna happen. So I mean who is hysterical who is where the hysterics and they were.

So mean we were fearing for our lives. This is this is how you get past. The fact that you have just lied through your teeth. I mean you've tried to create a completely false Perspective it paint a completely false picture.

Hopefully I You know I imagine what they're hoping for is that this will keep Catholics from listening to the debate because I went on the Catholic answers forum Earlier and I'll come back to this. Let me see if I can bring it up real quick.

And there was a comment that had been left I guess earlier today something along those lines and Are we at by are we having? Transmission problems here. Oh, there we go. But it took quite some time. It's just sitting there and chunking along chunk along.

I probably just knocked us off the air by trying to Trying to get this thing to work, but in the apologetics section I guess what they're trying to do is they're trying to get Catholics not to watch this thing.

Maybe if you can just You know throw enough stuff out there to to make it look like you know. That you know, this is. They mistreated the the Catholic apologists and it was just mean actually, I hope everyone remembers Bill Rutland got more time.

To simply make his own presentation than any other Catholic apologist has ever been given. Patrick Madrid did not have as much time. Robertson Jessen. I have as much time. Jerry Manateeks did not have as much time.

Mitchell Pacwa in two debates has not had some as much time. Gary Machuda has not had so much time. Peter Stravinsky's did not have so much time and If Peter if Bill built Peter Peter Ruckman. Well, and then Bill Rutland can do so poorly with the most time that's ever been given anybody.

Don't blame us for that. Okay? This is a guy named Catholic one date June 13th, so This was this was yesterday. And he says I recently went to a debate between James White and Bill Rutland in Long Island, New York.

I must say James White knows his history and the Greek understanding the Bible. As for the Catholic apologist. He didn't do well under cross-examination. He was coming up with all kinds of excuses to answer James White's questions score one for the Protestants.

By the way, I'm just being fair to both men and you know, I'm at least the responses were fairly Calm to this. The next one was interesting. It says simply because someone speaks from a position of truth doesn't mean he will always be good at articulating it.

I've heard skillful Protestants demolish Catholics and I've heard skillful Catholics demolish Protestants. However, this is funny. However Protestants have one advantage in this regard in order to be a successful Protestant minister.

You must be a good orator. This is not true of Catholics. Well, you know what they're right that that person is exactly right priests do not have to be able to speak. You know that that's just all there is to it.

So there's some truth that so at least some people I think what they're trying to do is damage control. And I think that's that's exactly what Bill Rutland is trying to do here. I Have demonstrated error after error after error.

I've documented from emails where Bill Rutland has misrepresented the truth. I've documented it. It's right there. And what is what's his response? James White's hysterical and and I've got a debate to prepare for in November.

Well, whoopee do I have a debate pair for prepare for at the end of August against John Dominic Croson and Marcus Borg.

And.

Somehow I've got the time to set the record straight here. What's wrong bill? I just just absolutely positively amazing and then of course art Sippo has to has to jump in there and sadly James has an effect on a lot of people after while his ranting and raving become excessive and you start to question his spiritual and Psychological stability as a medical professional.

I've tried to counsel James to seek some help. This is art Sippo the the nastiest guy on the on the planet and he doesn't even notice it he does I I know so many different people who could give you emails from art Sippo Containing insults and plays on their names and and and and yet I've counseled the two.

You should get some help. If it wasn't it Sippo rich that we had the tape recordings of going absolutely ballistic on our On our on our was that Sippo?

Who was that?

We had somebody at this total loss their mind, but I remember we I remember going back and forth on this mental stability stuff. Very funny, but so then on another thread under okay James John 6 JMJ who I mentioned on the website.

Well now that everyone has said how disappointed they are that I will not let mr. Mr. White request an inappropriate format. We still have not heard from the man itself. Okay, James. You're just in debating not this is from art Sippo who again, you know if we could have a moderator who would moderate unlike Patrick Madrid and a subject that is worthwhile like purgatory indulgences something that would allow us to go directly into the text of scripture and have real Cross-examination where I can look at art Sippo and I can take him right into text of scripture and say Where does it say that what does this verb mean?

How does this follow. Art simple will never let that happen. He will never let that happen. He knows he could never survive it. He knows he doesn't know what he claims to know all he he is a big new Perspectivist fan would be he knows EP Sanders.

Congratulations. That's that's the extent of it. He would never ever ever let that happen. He knows that in real cross-examination. Where he actually has to answer the questions directly from the text of scripture.

He would collapse and he knows it. He'll never let it happen. Never let it happen. Won't happen. But then notice what happens. Listen, listen to this. This is posted yesterday. Yesterday evening. Art Sippo again, no one should bother to call James on his radio show.

Mr White is in complete control of that media and when you use it just to humiliate people. If this right wants to debate it can communicate with us online and we can arrange a moderated forum. Meanwhile, I recommend that nobody have anything to do with white show.

No good can come from it. Oh How brave these folks are behind their keyboards. We have how many years of examples of callers being treated fairly on this program? You know, I mean just years and years and years and.

So what what's what they're saying is we can sit here in our forum and we can lie. We can post lies and it doesn't matter because you know. What our people are just going to stay in this little cocoon and they're not going to listen anything else.

Very good. You know if someone calls in other people might listen and they might learn things. Oh that that cannot that cannot be that later on he says James cannot control and dominate this medium. That is why he would never come here.

He would never expose himself to a situation where he had not feel like he was in complete control. Like the song says paranoia strikes deep now. I'll tell you why it is very tempting to go into the envoy magazine.

And take on one particular person. There's just one problem with that. I don't remember the last time art Sippo did a debate. I don't remember last time art Sippo wrote a book. I remember the last time art Sippo spoke at Conferences outside the United States.

I don't remember last time the art Sippo taught a graduate class in theology. He doesn't do any of those things. He has all the time the world to sit around and post in a in a web board. I do not because I have less than 70 days till two major debates.

During that period of time. I have multiple chapters for publication to write. I have multiple articles for publication to write. I have a class to teach on the graduate level in a seminary in San Francisco.

I've got a little bit going on and as absolutely tremendously tremendously Tempting as it is. Because every time I have done it these people have just scattered to the winds and all run for the the hills and called in their big guns, you know called in the The apologist to start exchanging these huge massive multiple at multiple hour long written exchanges and yada yada yada.

And try to do it that way, you know bring four or five of those guys in and eventually just overwhelm anybody. That matter but they all they all scare the wind they all run. Because they just don't have the courage their convictions.

They just they just don't but when art Sippo is doing what I'm doing. Then we can talk about who has you know sufficient time. It doesn't take very long however to dial eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and if people were mistreated that would be very clear to everybody right and We post all of our dividing lines so people go and hear that right.

Yeah, except the vast majority of these folks will never do that. They will not they will not go. They will not listen to another side. They will not consider anything like that it is absolutely positively amazing to to look at this and Just I don't know.

How do people? Look at Themselves in the mirror. When they when they act this way I Just I just do not understand that well, anyways, uh There's lots more on these and I haven't even gone over to the Steve Ray board maybe somebody could Could drop me a note if something's being said over there would be interesting to see.

But we will am I correct?

Mr.

All-powerful board operator person who I'm not sure is really listening to me. Anyways, I'm right here. I've said something I wouldn't lie you walk off on me all the time and you know.

You. Well, there are things to do over here. Yeah, right sure.

We're gonna have mp3s Thursday Friday. I mean cuz I announcement announcement gonna We're gonna have to move the dividing lines of Friday this this week. I just got to do it. Maybe we'll do it during the day.

So because a lot of people will be gone the evening maybe we'll do it 11 o 'clock on Friday instead of For on Thursday and that way we'll still have two dividing lines. I just need to move Thursday. But will we have a mp3?

Oh, absolutely.

Mr. Rutland's tapes will be going out via UPS this afternoon and Then at that point we'll be able to publish The audios and I expect to have the DVDs ready by the end of the week. Wow.

Is that. The reason that that can go faster is you did the recording and the sound was already? You're not having to play around them like the stuff from the conference last year. Yeah.

Yeah, this is a big mess there and just to tweak a lot of things I learned of trial and error and this time around we got it, right. And everything looks like it's gonna.

Sound worked great except for one pop on his microphone and the fire alarm going off.

That was. Warned you guys about that that all day long and it's like suddenly. It looks like everybody's gonna get up and leave in the middle of the debate and it's like wait, wait, wait, wait.

Not so fast. I see. Well, I I was wondering I Figured it was the sound, you know, but then all sudden I noticed the flashing lights and I'm like, well, this is this is great Wonderful. Well, it's a Protestant conspiracy.

It must have been it must have been since the place is run by Jewish folks. And we had it didn't we have a I think it we had a Jewish wedding upstairs and the Muslim wedding downstairs. That's right, and they put the Christians in in between as they buffer.

They had it going on that night. Yes, they did. It was it was incredible. Okay, so people are gonna be able to download the mp3s later this week and they can listen to themselves that's gonna be exactly what you need to do and Then that will give us the opportunity.

Maybe I'll have time I don't know by Thursday to grab some of the cross-examination because remember if you're listening this going what in the world you people talking about you've missed you've missed my blog and you've missed a tremendous example of How Roman Catholic apologists handle a situation where a debate just you know debates you can have a bad debate and Yet it still is very profitable or isn't profitable.

What do I mean by that? If one of the two debaters simply does a really bad job and yet they do it in such a way as to bring confusion and a lack of clarity To the subject and you can do that just by being obstinate by being nasty and mr. Rutland was not nasty.

No one has ever said that he was he's that in fact, it's been said by more than one person I don't the people who saw him in the bait and the people who are now reading what he's writing doesn't look like the same guy really doesn't and so he was not nasty in this and.

So.

What the result of all that is is the issue is? Very clear the issue is very perspicuous to use that term and Especially in the cross-examination period. Okay. I didn't get him to Commit himself to even answering the most basic questions.

About the subject he refused to answer, but the point is everybody saw that. Everybody saw that. We're sitting there looking at the phrase together with us they adore the one true God and It's like every time mr. Rutland Rutland would read that he'd skip one or two words and redefine them.

Well, it's not a door the one true God to acknowledge. What does door mean? Well, once we establish that then well, they worship one God, but it says together with us. They they worship the one God will not just means they're monotheist.

But what is together mean? I mean when I have to be parsing every single word in a single phrase. Just to get him to admit let alone defend. What are you supposed to be defending? That clarifies the issue everybody's sitting there is going.

Okay, mr. Rutland We know what it says and why won't you admit what it says? Why won't you defend what it says? That was you know, absolutely positively clear and Then in the cross-examination from both sides and and remember, mr. Rutland wanted to cut back The cross-examination even though he had said to Chris Arnzen That the cross that the interaction one of the things he didn't like about the presidential debates.

Was that there was no interaction? Between the two debaters. Okay, so we have interaction and the fact the matter is we've learned over the years. That that is what people want to hear they would anybody anybody can go to our websites and Read what we have to say.

You could have called up Bill Rutland the week beforehand and listen to Bill Rutland for 25 minutes. And you could have listened to the dividing line for 25 minutes you could have gone to the Massapequa Church of God the night before when I talked about the same subject for an hour and You could have gotten one side.

What good is a debate if all you've got are the presentations the two of the two sides?

The heart of.

The debate in this for in this format in this form is you finally get the two sides to actually talk and The the mechanism that we use That is this cross-examination. Where it is free-flowing? It's like a courtroom allows the audience to see which side is able to demonstrate the coherence of its argumentation the fact the matter is the Roman there the people like Patrick Madrid and Cherry-matted ticks they're not stupid people.

They're very smart people and They can look back over 34 moderated public debates now that I've done against Roman Catholic apologists 56 total 34 of them against Roman Catholics and In the first few few years this wasn't as much the case because I was learning I mean I didn't you know I I do a whole lot better now than I did then there's no question I better if I'm doing worse now than I did back, then that's that's not a good thing as We look back over this and as they look back over this They can see that they do just fine making their own presentations.

But they if there's any one point where the wheels simply fall off of their cart. It's during cross-examination. That's where it all comes apart. And so I wasn't surprised at all Along those lines when Bill Rutland writes it says I want to cut cross-examination in half and give myself more time to talk.

Because from their perspective that that's absolutely necessary. That that's that is exactly what they would want to do and In the context of the debates. He gave him the exact same amount of time that anybody else has gotten and He says that we were jerking him around in that type of situation.

Unbelievable absolutely positively unbelievable, but it makes sense why they want to lose the cross-examination. We will be able to have some cuts on the next dividing line to play and Let you listen if you haven't downloaded the mp3.

Maybe it'll cause you to download the mp3. Maybe it'll cause you not to download the mp3. I don't know but We can so we can play the section where I'm trying to get him to just to just be honest with what the Catechism says.

Or.

The section on John 6. Where we're just trying to get into the get into the text. Just just. Well. Mr. Rutland which action comes first. Well. You know that's putting God in a box. You know. Not sure we really can know these things.

God's outside of time and and.

Wow.

Romans 1 just trying to figure out whether men know God. Well, I think what Paul's talking about there is this and we're in the text you get that well. It's just from reading the whole Bible see and and and people see this.

You know okay? Maybe there's some who don't maybe there's some that'll look at that and go ah that's that's exactly how I'd respond. Well, you know I can't be too worried about that, but the people who actually are concerned about truth see that and.

Over the years we have demonstrated in almost three dozen debates now That there is a consistency here, and that is Rome.

Can.

Is certainly skilled at making its claims at Making its its pretentious claims to authority. But when it comes down to actually interacting with someone who can say wait a minute. You just said this, but you know your own history says this or wait a minute.

You said this text says this, but actually if we look at the language all of a sudden. We don't want very much cause in fact. Let's get rid of cross-examination altogether. I think that's that's the next thing down the road, so we don't want that stuff there.

Or let's just have audience questions as if audience questions were overly relevant one way or the other. That's what that's what's going on in essence and. So it's just it just completely amazes me. The the meltdown and now other people know what you call in that program.

They just notice humiliate you. What would you expect us to do? Would you expect us to? Alter your voice you sound like Donald Duck or something.

Ha.

If there's gonna be humiliations because people are calling in who have lied. They've lied about me. They've lied about debate. They never went to. They've engaged in nothing but ad hominem and. Those folks don't do well once you start asking them to substantiate their assertions.

That's why that's the only reason I can think of why anybody wouldn't call in 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 it's a free free phone call. John 6 jmj and uncertain drummer and all these folks from the envoy Forums and the Catholic answers forums and like I said, I haven't even looked at the Steve Ray stuff.

Who are just so confident in saying that?

What was it? What was it that?

Someone Said yesterday after after listening to after reading some more lies.

What was what was the.

Let's see here. Yeah, this just continues to show that James Why is a sneaky vicious anti-catholic with no real desire to save souls, but to win arguments. Wow, you know. Sure would be nice to have some of those folks that had the courage of their convictions that would actually you know pick up that phone and Dial it but you know what as I look over.

Oh, I see some. I see some lines ring. Maybe we're gonna take a break. Maybe they're there. Let's let's see if finally some folks are gonna back up what they've said. We're gonna take a break and come back with those phone callers.

8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. We'll be right back.

The Bible True Debate and Roman Catholicism

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Org and welcome back to the dividing line. I can no longer hear. However, thank you very much. Mr. Camp, uh.

Ow, oh I had asked for it to be up a little bit for me because I I was in back down in the bottom of the well again, and uh. Anyways, let's see what we got going on here.

Uh.

Okay, let's.

Wait a minute. How'd that happen? We had two calls. And we only have one left. It has nothing to do with the topic. Oh, well, let's uh, talk with chris in indiana. Hi chris.

Uh, hi, dr. White. How's up? Uh, it's always good to how's up you and uh, and uh here that you're defending, uh, the reform.

Thankful for people like you. That's a nice way of putting it. Uh, the roman catholics considered it to be. Uh, as I mentioned on my blog, uh, my my passionate defense of reform theology means that I Uh, i'm obsessed with my hatred of roman catholicism, I guess I don't.

I don't get to be passionate about what I believe. Uh, you're only passionate about hating what somebody else believes. It's an odd, uh, hypocritical double standard.

But it seems to be the trump card so many people use when uh confronted Uh by any opposition no matter how gently how graciously done. Uh, that's like the trump card you hate me. Yep. Yep. That's uh, that works for postmodernists because uh bad because the issues never really get laid out and never really get discussed.

So i'm glad that you were able to debate this fellow and especially uh, especially on You know the topics of uh of this Inclusivism that uh is uh taking uh, I just uh, I wanted to ask you. Uh, My wife and I have a little ministry.

Um here in indiana down at the local ymca. They let us uh, I let us come in and teach uh character building classes using the bible and uh to uh Kids basically in a youth community action program. And so i'm very thankful for that.

The only trouble is that the y has become very ecumenical and embraces pretty much everything. But at least we have a door in there. And uh when I was in there today, they've usually got a magazine rack with a uh, variety of christian themes.

I noticed on charisma magazine the june issue and uh, you might be interested in picking this up reading this article for pope john paul. And it's just loaded with positive things to say about him.

And uh.

Briefly, it's fairly I couldn't find anything in there about the whole idea of the difference between the form view of salvation and uh. You know, it just uh keeps getting better and better, you know, I mean, uh, well you wouldn't you know.

You wouldn't if christianity today is is going to to give a pass on that you certainly expect charisma to be Overly concerned about someone's theology, uh, you know, they're that would be grossly inconsistent to be perfectly honest with you.

So that doesn't surprise me and I was a brain christian bookstore a few weeks ago. I I mentioned I was right before the program and and uh standing there in line to look down and here in this table. They set out just sort of the last chance table.

You're staying in line to To to check out so the last last shot to get at you and here's a whole section of john paul. The second picture books and you can tell there had been a whole lot more of them than there were now.

They had they were they were running out that that's how well they were selling. And uh right here, you know brain christian bookstore and it's just like well There you go. Uh, if that doesn't tell you something.

I I don't know what is and uh,.

You know, it doesn't surprise me in in the least and of course what's interesting sir is this article is basically about john paul's and uh. He refueled the charismatic movement with the new pentecost.

Basically it says and uh, but you know, it's funny.

Well, and if they're going to be even semi-fair with uh, john paul's theology. Uh, they are going to have to also point out that connected to the spirit In his theology very very clearly. Is the is the role of mary as the spouse of the spirit?

And maybe I don't know if they skip that or if they even would even begin to understand that. But the the title of mary as spouse of the spirit and her role In the spirits ministry in the world. Yeah, you know, they're they're probably just going to duck that because it's yeah.

I don't believe it was mentioned. I mean, that's that's bizarre. Well, but that's I don't know that i've ever even heard that. Oh, oh really? Well, and I try to look into this stuff as deeply as i'm able.

Well, I mentioned it. I mentioned a number of times in mary another redeemer, uh, which is not a print. But i'd like to see that book in another form come back into print in regards to mary and the roman catholic doctrines concerning her.

But yeah, uh, if you read what john paul II if you read anything that leading roman catholicist Theologians are saying today there is going to be a very intimate connection Between the ministry of the spirit today and the mother of the church.

She's called the spouse of the spirit and though this is the leading bleeding edge of marion Doctrinal development and is not representative of the majority Of catholic theologians today. There are some Who are even recognized as being leaders and certainly are not said to be unorthodox Who have gone so far as to refer to mary as the incarnation of the holy spirit?

So there you go terrible that's I I agree a thousand percent, but you see Think about it. Once you once you establish what they argue about for mary And that is that mary becomes the model of the church.

Well Who does the spirit indwell? In the world today is the church is the body And so if mary becomes the mother of the church and the picture of the church par excellence Uh, there you go, and that's here and that's why i've used the marion dogmas as a perfect example Of what happens when you deny sola scriptura once you abandon?