Q&A on Hell, Creation, etc

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We are beginning tonight our question and answer.
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We do this periodically here at Sovereign Grace.
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It gives me an opportunity to know what theological issues that you're dealing with as a church.
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It also, for me, every time I go to Bible conferences, sometime during the conference, they take the conference speakers and they sit them down and they allow people in the congregation either to stand up and get in line and ask questions or to present their questions in written form to them beforehand.
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And a moderator will sit there and ask the questions and the speakers will answer.
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Some of the funniest things I've ever seen in Bible conferences have happened during the Q&As.
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One time a lady asked R.C.
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Sproul, this was only a few years ago, she asked R.C.
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Sproul, why is God's punishment so severe? And R.C.
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Sproul, he...
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I'm trying to remember exactly how he began, but he looked out at the audience at one point and he said, what is wrong with you people? Now, I will try not to do that tonight, say what is wrong with you.
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But his point was, he says, what do you mean God's so severe? He said, this God of the universe has provided grace upon grace.
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He should have destroyed the human race the moment the sin entered the picture and yet He has given grace upon grace.
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What is wrong with us that we think God's too severe? He's overly gracious.
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And I just remember that.
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What is wrong with you people? I just always thought that was a great moment.
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I ought to make a t-shirt that says, what is wrong with you people, R.C.
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Sproul, 2013, or whatever it was.
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It's just a great moment in theological redemptive history.
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So like I said, I'm going to try not to do anything like that tonight.
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But if you do ask a particularly good question, I might respond particularly humorously.
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No, don't, don't.
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Anything you ask, and as I said in my prayer earlier, really the only foolish questions are the ones that we refuse to ask.
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Because if you have a question, it means you don't know the answer, or at least you're not confident that the answer that you have is the right one.
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So we want to be confident in our answer.
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We want to know that what we believe is correct.
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Now I did receive two email questions, and because I ask people to email questions, I'm going to allow those two to take priority.
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But I did forget to print them, so the gentleman who emailed the questions, go ahead and read the first one, and we'll all open our Bible to the relevant text.
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Go ahead.
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In 1 Peter 3, 18-20, a second interpretation would be that in the passage, it's not Christ literally descending into hell to preach to those in prison, but Christ spoke to them through Noah before the flood, and now they are in prison.
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So which of these do you agree, or do you have a different view of? Okay, well let's read the relevant text.
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Everybody turn to 1 Peter 3, 18, and then we're going to talk about the different viewpoints on this particular text.
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1 Peter 3, 18.
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Alright.
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The text says, For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through water.
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Here is the question, and the reason for the question, and the theological issue that has arisen as a result.
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It says here, particularly verse 19, that he, that is Christ, contextually, went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.
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Alright.
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What is it talking about? What's the context? What does it mean? Well, some believe that Jesus Christ, when he died on the cross, went to hell, and spent the three days between the time that he was on the cross, and the time that he arose from the grave, that he spent three days suffering in hell.
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I do not believe that.
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And I'm going to make an argument for that in just a moment.
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But, this is one of the passages that has been cited, because it refers to Jesus going spiritually to the spirits that are in prison, and the interpretation of that is the spirits in prison is those in hell.
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Okay? One of the things that we need to realize, is that the doctrine of hell, in scripture, is not a simple thing.
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The doctrine in hell, in scripture, is actually a quite multifaceted idea.
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I want you to turn in your Bibles to Luke 16.
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Hold your place at 1 Peter 3, because I just want to show you something.
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In Luke 16, beginning at verse 19, Jesus tells a story about a poor man named Lazarus, and a rich man who goes unnamed.
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And in this story, the subject of hell is brought out.
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Now, I am saying this is a story, not a parable.
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You notice I didn't say it's a parable.
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Some people believe this is a parable.
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I don't believe that it's a parable, because this is the only time when Jesus uses a proper name in a story.
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And, if you think about, like, the Good Samaritan.
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I don't believe there was a Good Samaritan.
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I don't think it's necessary to believe there was a Good Samaritan.
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There may have been, and Jesus may have been telling a story.
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But Jesus didn't tell it as a story.
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He told it as a parable, which means there's not necessarily a Good Samaritan.
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It's a story.
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It's meant to give a moral point.
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But Jesus tells this story as if it is a story, as if it actually happened, and he uses a real name of a real individual.
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He says in verse 19, There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and who feasted sumptuously every day.
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And at his gate was a poor man named Lazarus.
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Now, that's not the same Lazarus who Jesus rose from the dead.
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Just, I don't want anybody to be confused.
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That's in the Gospel of John.
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We hear about that Lazarus who died and was brought back.
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This is not the same Lazarus.
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This is a very common name, just like John or James or anything else.
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In Biblical times, Lazarus was not uncommon.
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It says, He was covered with sores, verse 21, who desired to be fed with that which fell from the rich man's table.
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Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
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The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.
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In the King James vernacular, it says, Abraham's bosom, to the presence of Abraham, is what that's saying.
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The rich man also died and was buried.
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And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off.
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And Lazarus had his side.
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And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me.
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Send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
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But Abraham said, Child, remember that in your life, you received good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things.
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But now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
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And beside all this, between us and you, a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you, may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.
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And he said, Then I beg you, Father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
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But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets.
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Let them hear them.
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And he said, No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
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He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced, if someone should rise from the dead.
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Alright, let's sort of break down what's happened.
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And I like to do this on the board.
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Jesus tells a story.
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And he says, There was a man who died, and he was poor.
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He was so poor that he begged for food.
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He begged for the crumbs that fell off the table of the rich man.
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That man's name was Lazarus.
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When he died, he died in faith.
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The text doesn't say that, but there is an implication, because no one goes to heaven just because they're poor.
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The Bible never says you're justified by poverty.
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It says you're justified by faith.
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So the implication is that the man was a man of faith, even though he was a poor man.
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And so, he was carried by angels to Abraham's side.
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Now I don't want to get too far off on a tangent, but this is one of the most comforting passages for me in regard to the death of a believer.
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I believe that the believer's death is accompanied by a spirit of peace and security.
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That the believer doesn't die and go into blackness or fear or doubt.
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It says when he died, he was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
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I think that's a beautiful thing to consider.
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Because in the very next breath, he says, and the rich man died, closed his eyes here, and opened his eyes in hell.
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There was no angelic escort.
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There was no peaceful entering.
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It was an immediate, you're done here, you're alive over there, and it's misery forever.
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That's some scary business.
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So, all that being said, Jesus paints a picture for us.
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He paints a picture of what the old covenant saints would have called Sheol.
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The word in the Hebrew, Sheol, simply means the place of the dead.
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It didn't refer to hell or to heaven.
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It simply meant the place of the departed spirits.
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In this case, there is a chasm, Jesus says, that separates Abraham's bosom from what is referred to as Hades.
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Hades or a miserable place, hell.
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We're getting there.
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We're getting there.
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Because this is why I think the doctrine of hell is multifaceted and people don't realize the implications of it.
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This place currently exists, I believe.
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I believe this place is a now reality.
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Okay? There's a question as to whether this place is a now reality.
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Here's the issue.
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The question is whether or not these people who were here, after the cross, are now with Christ.
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That's the theological question.
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Did Christ remove those who were with Abraham and take them with Him? What does Paul say? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
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So there is a theological question as to whether or not this still exists as a place.
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Or whether or not those who were here are now with Christ.
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If that's so, that would make sense that if Christ preached to those who were in prison, this could be the answer as to who He preached to and He brought them with Himself.
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Would these persons have heard what He said? Well, Abraham could hear the rich man calling out for water, so the answer is potentially yes.
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Here's something to consider, though, and just as a thought.
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There is something Jesus is trying to tell us in this passage, in this story, that was not well known during the time of the rabbis.
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During the time of the rabbis, they believed in heaven and hell.
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They believed in the place of Abraham's bosom, and they believed in the place of the parted spirits that died outside of God's grace, and they were being punished.
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And they believed that it was separated by a hand's width.
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Some of them believed it was only a thin veil that separated those who were at peace and those who were in torment.
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But Jesus said it's not a hand's width, it's not a thin veil, it's a chasm that no man can cross.
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Jesus is making a point.
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When you die, your opportunities of grace have been lost.
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Everything, it is over.
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No more pass, go.
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I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door one time, and she told me that you get a second chance when you die.
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I said, here's my Bible, or show me your Bible.
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It ain't in yours either.
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It's a bad translation, but it still don't say that.
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The point being, there is coming a time.
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There is coming a time when there will be a lake of fire which is not this.
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Revelation tells us that death and Hades gave up their dead, and they were poured into the lake of fire.
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So what that means is this place will stop existing at some point, and will be given over to the eternal place of fire called the lake of fire.
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So this place is temporary.
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The lake of fire is not in service yet.
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I'm not going to say it doesn't exist yet, but it's not in service yet.
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Because Satan will be poured out there, his angels will be poured out there, and every person in Hades, and every person who dies outside of Christ will be put there.
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Huh? The lake of fire.
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No, it doesn't yet.
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That's what I'm saying.
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This is hell, but it's not the lake of fire.
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We don't know what it is except that it is a place where you are extremely hot, and it is tormented.
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I'm sorry I didn't mean to confuse you.
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I'm not saying there's no fire here.
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I'm not saying there's no torment here.
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What I am saying is that the torment to come is not yet.
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Exactly, exactly.
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So there is a theory, and now we're getting into theories that can make you dangerous.
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There's a theory that when Christ died on the cross, He went into Abraham's bosom, and He led the captives captive.
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Have you ever heard that phrase, led captivity captive? It's an old King James phrase that says He led captivity captive.
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And the idea was that He took those out of that place who were there by His grace on credit, if you will, because the cross had not yet occurred.
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He took them with Him, and at that point, this whole thing became Hades.
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And thus Sheol and Hades are one and the same now.
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And you either die and you're with Christ, or you die and you're in Sheol or Hades, and it's all one and the same.
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I don't necessarily think you have to believe that theory, but it is a theory.
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And I wanted to share it with you.
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It was one of the theories that was mentioned to me when I was taking eschatology so many years ago.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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But Jesus is telling the story as if it already happened, and the cross hasn't happened yet as Jesus is telling the story.
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So in time, it still works.
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In time, it would still work out.
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One other question.
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Just Sheol, because I always thought Sheol was the Hades.
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No, you go to the Old Testament, and the Sheol reference is the place of departed spirits.
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It's not designated in every context as being the place of torment.
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Sheol is, like I said, it's just considered the place of the dead in the Old Testament.
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So this is, again, this is a theory, and you go back to 1 Peter 3, and it says he preached to the souls in prison.
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Is that what it's talking about? Well, that's one potential answer.
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Some people believe Jesus suffered in hell for three days, that He went to Hades, not the Lake of Fire, but to Hades for three days, and He suffered for three days for our sin.
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I do not believe that, and here's why.
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When Jesus died on the cross, all of the wrath of God was poured out upon Him, and He said, Tetelestai, it is finished.
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I don't believe that He had to then go spend three days being tormented by Satan and the demons to fulfill the punishment that Christ had to fulfill.
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I think it was totally and completely fulfilled on the cross.
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But, and that's true.
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It's God who was punishing Him.
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It pleased God to strike Him, says Isaiah 53.
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And here's the interesting just side note of that.
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There are theologians, let me back up.
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There are people who play them on TV, like Joyce Meyer, who will say that Jesus died and went to hell, and suffered in hell.
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But again, that is not at least what I would teach or believe.
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But I do want to...
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Are you going to ask about the Apostles' Creed? No.
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Okay.
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What I was going to ask you is what...
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Well, this would be one of the arguments would be from 1 Peter 3, which is the purpose for the question.
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Yeah.
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Also, the thing that is often cited is the Apostles' Creed.
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It says that He descended into hell.
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The Apostles' Creed, I don't have a copy with me tonight, but if you go find a written copy of the Apostles' Creed as it was written, it makes that point that He descended into hell.
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How that is interpreted, though, is multifold.
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I don't have a problem with the Apostles' Creed.
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I don't interpret that to mean He went to hell to suffer.
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I think that this text, if it is understood this way, that He went to proclaim the gospel to those who were in Abraham's bosom, that He went there and proclaimed...
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If you interpret it that way, I don't see a problem with the Apostles' Creed.
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Some people don't like that line, they remove it from the Apostles' Creed, and they don't even say that part.
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That's fine.
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The Apostles' Creed is not Scripture.
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But I do want to know when I study something like the Apostles' Creed, which is almost 2,000 years old, I want to know what the writers of it intended.
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And I don't think any of them intended to mean that Jesus suffered in hell for three days to fulfill the necessity of the punishment that God had in store for Him.
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I don't believe that, and I don't think that that can be borne out from the text of the Bible.
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Is there anything that I didn't cover? Is there anything that I didn't get to? And now those spirits...
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In other words, He preached through no one.
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The gospel, He preached through no one.
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Okay.
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And nobody did, and now they're in prison.
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That's another interpretation I've heard.
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Well, let me read through it again.
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For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through water.
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Well, there is a reality where Noah was preaching, and there is a reality that those who heard the preaching of God's grace through Noah are in that place, are in punishment.
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I don't really know if I follow along with that same course of logic, though, that this is saying that Christ...
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that this particular reference where it says He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison is referring to a past tense thing that goes back to the time of Noah.
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I don't know that I agree with that.
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I don't know that I disagree with it.
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It's kind of one of those things where it seems almost like we're reading into it something that's not there.
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Sure.
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I got you.
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I got you.
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Well, like I said, I don't believe Christ went to hell.
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I don't think it has to be interpreted that way.
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I think that if we look at it this way, hadn't considered this idea.
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Yeah.
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Well, this to me, I think, is where I would be on it as far as the issue of Christ preaching through Noah.
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Is that true? Yes.
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Is that what's being talked about here? I don't necessarily see it that way.
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I'd have to spend more time with him kind of seeing where he's going logically with that, but I don't see it right away.
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I'm not going to say he's off the rails, but this is where I think I would be at least on a sense of...
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This has more context.
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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All right.
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Now, you had a second question? Right.
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Okay.
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To which he responded, I am either Calvinist or Arminian.
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I believe both be right in what they affirm and wrong in what they deny.
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I didn't ask that because I came to that conclusion to which he said, by studying only with journal and pen in hand, commentaries have their place casually, but shouldn't be relied on.
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So how would you respond to those answers? All right.
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I want to respond to the last part first.
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When a man says, I only study with my Bible and my journal in my hand and I don't listen to what anybody else has said about this particular passage, I think that that is very, very foolish.
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Now, I'm not saying that we should rely exclusively on the commentaries, but if you think that no one before you has had anything to say on what the Bible says, that is a tremendous amount of hubris.
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If you don't think that anybody has had a deeper insight than you, that is a tremendous amount of pride.
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So I think, I'll tell you, when I'm studying for sermons, I begin with the text.
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I begin with the language.
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I try to make sure that I understand what is being said and the original language.
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If I can parse it out and help to ensure that I understand it.
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I like to begin there before going to the commentaries because I don't want to be misled.
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I want to know that I know at least enough to where if somebody says something that is off the wall, and sometimes they do, even the best commentary writers say things that are wrong, so I like to be able to at least go in knowledgeably, but at the same time, I've often been looking at a text and then I go and I read Calvin or I read F.F.
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Bruce, which is one of the great commentaries on Acts.
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That's what I'm studying now is Acts.
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F.F.
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Bruce has used, man, everybody I hear preach on these, they're all quoting F.F.
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Bruce.
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His commentary on Acts is fantastic.
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So I read what he has to say and sometimes it's like, wow, I didn't see that because I was not aware of the historic context here.
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I was not aware of the vernacular here and how important that is in this particular moment because I am limited on my knowledge of history and his knowledge combined with my knowledge makes me smarter.
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So a man who says, I don't need that or I don't use that, I'm automatically suspect of because I had a professor one time, I heard him say that.
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He said, he goes, yeah, I can read the Greek language, so I don't need the commentaries.
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Who said you need commentaries just to help with the Greek? That's not all the commentary does.
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The commentary allows you to hear the way God has moved on other men to understand a particular text.
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Sometimes I read commentaries that I know are wrong.
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Now you're going to think I'm nuts, but I do that because one thing about the liberal bad theologians, they'll make you think about what you believe and they'll make you have to think why you believe what you believe.
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And I'm confident enough that I can read what they have to say without being shook to my core over it.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, sometimes it's good to listen to somebody with whom you disagree.
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So that's the first part of the question.
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Second part of the question is what he said about Calvinism, Arminianism.
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And he said, I believe where they're right and I don't believe where they're wrong.
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I think, how did he word it again? Well, he's claiming a contradiction.
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You cannot believe in limited atonement and universal atonement at the same time.
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You can't believe in total depravity and partial depravity at the same time.
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You can't believe in unconditional election and conditional election at the same time.
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You can't believe in irresistible grace and resistible grace at the same time.
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And you can't believe in perseverance of the saints and the lack of the perseverance of the saints at the same time.
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So whatever he's saying is a contradiction.
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Contradiction is the hallmark of untruth.
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Because consistency is the hallmark of truth.
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One of the things that we must always be in our theological system is consistent.
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That is the greatest failure in modern theology is inconsistency.
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A man will say, God is absolutely sovereign and He has a plan that cannot be thwarted.
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And then he'll turn around and say, God allows every man absolute free will and He never interrupts His life in any way.
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One of those has to be false.
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You can't have both.
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I heard a guy one time say that God is sovereign, but you have to invite Him to participate in your life.
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That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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The God of this universe has to be invited to participate in my life? Let me tell you something.
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I've seen people struck down by God.
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And they didn't invite that striking down.
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Look through the Bible.
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Read the Bible.
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These people who are struck down by God, they didn't say, God, I'm letting you in now.
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That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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I'm sorry.
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My point is consistency is important.
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And I understand at least what he's trying to say.
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He's trying to say, I affirm these things, but they deny certain things.
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And it's always about limited atonement.
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They affirm Christ died for the elect, okay.
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They deny Christ died for everyone in the same way, and I deny that.
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Okay, well, it can't be both or either.
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It's got to be one or the other.
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And that's normally, that's probably where he is.
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That's the issue.
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I don't know him, so I don't know for certain.
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That's right.
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Well, if you stand in the middle of the road, you get squished like a grape.
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I will quote the great theologian Mr.
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Miyagi from the Karate Kid.
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He said, if you walk on the right side, you're safe.
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And if you walk on the left side, you're safe.
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But if you walk in the middle, you're going to get squished like a grape.
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Now, he was talking about karate.
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He said, you either do it or you don't do it, but don't do halfway.
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It's the same way.
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Either it's right or it's not.
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If you go this sort of halfway route, I'm a four-pointer this or a three-pointer that.
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It's a consistent system, and it stands or falls as a system.
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I do believe that.
29:04
Yeah.
29:06
All right.
29:07
I'm going to now take questions.
29:08
I already saw one hand up.
29:09
Yes, ma'am.
29:10
And I'll go to you next, sir.
29:10
I'll let her go first.
29:11
Ladies first.
29:14
Okay.
29:20
Which one? Well, I said what now? Did he go to hell for three days? No, I don't believe that he did.
29:30
Okay, good.
29:34
Well, good.
29:40
Yes.
29:41
Yes.
29:45
That's fine.
29:46
I can hear you.
30:05
Okay.
30:06
I'm very careful with what is called biblical numerology.
30:12
Biblical numerology is an attempt.
30:16
I know.
30:16
I'm glad.
30:17
It's a good question, and I'm going to give you ñ I want to just start by saying there are people who believe that anytime you see a number in the Bible that that number has an affixed meaning that goes with it, like one always represents God, two always represents Jesus because he's the God-man, three always represents completeness because that's the Trinity, four represents this, five represents that, seven represents perfection because that's when he rested.
30:46
So there's an attempt by some folks to make the Bible into a code book, and we become sort of like 1970s Cold War spies having to crack the code.
31:03
How many of you ever saw the book The Bible Code? Really? You should sell it on TV.
31:09
Come on.
31:10
Learn the code of the Bible and you'll, you know, this and that and the other.
31:13
I don't think the Bible is written in a code of numerology.
31:19
I think numerology is a man-centered, man-focused type of wisdom, an earthly wisdom, not a godly wisdom.
31:27
So I tend not to focus so much on numbers that are like that, but here's what Jesus said.
31:39
Jesus said, as Jonah was three days in the belly of the great fish, so too will the Son of Man be three days in the belly of the earth.
31:49
So that's the answer from Jesus.
31:52
He said Jonah was there for three days, Jesus was there for three days, and it also speaks of the completeness of his death, because a man who died, was put in the ground, and six hours later gets back up, well, maybe he wasn't dead.
32:07
But remember when Lazarus died? He's been dead for three days.
32:11
By now he stinketh.
32:13
That was what his sister said.
32:15
He said, roll away the stone.
32:17
Well, we can't.
32:17
By now he stinketh.
32:19
The idea was that's when the decomposition had already begun and he was deader than dead.
32:25
So three days was a distinct way of saying, yeah, he was truly and really dead.
32:35
Well, I'm not saying that they do.
32:37
I'm saying some people believe that they do.
32:40
There are consistent...
32:43
Well, that's a good, like I said, it's a good question.
32:45
And there are things that we see that are consistent, like...
32:48
No, I appreciate that.
32:50
Forty days, like that's a consistent thing.
32:52
We see that pattern over and over.
32:54
Forty days is like a fasting thing.
32:56
Again, the number seven as the seven spirits of God mentioned in Revelation 4.
33:01
You know, we see numbers that sort of come back over and over and over.
33:08
But I don't think that any of them are meant to be a code.
33:10
I think that they're simply just showing the way that God is consistent.
33:14
There's consistency like with fasting and things like that.
33:17
You wanted to add something? Okay, okay.
33:25
There was a money code guy, yeah.
33:27
You can get all the money with the Bible if you follow this simple...
33:32
And I remember...
33:33
How many of you ever heard of Gail Riplinger? She wrote New Age Bible versions.
33:38
She did this.
33:39
She said the reason why the King James is the true Bible and all the rest are the false is she said if you take the NIV and the NASV, and she had to do this with a V, even though nobody calls it NASV, everybody calls it NASB, but she called it the NASV because it only works.
33:55
She said if you subtract out AV...
33:59
What's AV? 1611 Authorized Version of the King James Bible? Well, if you subtract out the AV, you end up with SIN, which is sin.
34:09
And so these Bibles are based in sin.
34:11
That's some nonsense right there.
34:13
That is straight...
34:14
That's crazy.
34:16
But that's the kind of silliness that people can arrive at if you get too far into this looking for symbolism and signism and numerology and stuff.
34:29
Mr.
34:30
Irv, you had the next one.
34:31
I don't want to bypass you, sir.
34:59
Okay.
35:00
About creation.
35:02
Aha! I believe that the Bible talks about creation happening in what? Six days? Sure.
35:13
Okay.
35:14
Okay.
35:15
When they're talking about creation creation happened in the Big Bang 8.5 billion years ago.
35:23
8.4, yeah.
35:24
They're very specific.
35:35
It's too big a study to go into that, I'm certain.
35:38
No.
35:39
I've got all the time in the world for you, Mr.
35:42
Irv.
35:43
I promise.
35:44
I just want your opinion.
35:55
All right.
35:56
I'm going to make this as simple as I can, but this is a very, very broad topic, so I will simplify it as best I can.
36:06
There are essentially three ways of understanding the text of Genesis, and I think only one of them really is faithful to Genesis.
36:16
Okay? You have what is called Y-E-C.
36:20
You have O-E-C.
36:23
And then you have what is called T-E.
36:28
Y-E-C, O-E-C, and T-E.
36:30
Y-E-C, Young Earth Creationism.
36:35
That is the belief that the Earth is not as old as modern science tries to make it out to be.
36:42
Young Earth is just what it means.
36:45
It's the younger Earth.
36:46
The idea that the Earth is somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 years, maybe more, but it's in the thousands, not the millions.
36:56
That's that.
36:57
The next is called Old Earth Creationism.
37:01
That is the belief that the Earth is older than the Bible might seem to indicate, but that man was still a special creation of God, and that man has only been around for about 7,000 to 10,000 years.
37:21
This is called theistic evolution.
37:25
Theistic evolution is the idea that the Earth is as old as the scientists say, and that man has been around in different forms all throughout history.
37:34
He started as a single cell, and that single cell multiplied and grew and became different organisms, and now we are at the stage that we are in now.
37:42
And that is called theistic evolution.
37:44
In the theistic evolution, man is not a special creation of God, but at some point, God took one of the creatures, the great ape, and He endowed him with his presence, and that's how we became special.
38:03
We were all part of this evolutionary cycle.
38:07
God looked down and He said, okay, I like him, and He picked him rather than the spider monkey.
38:12
He picked the great ape.
38:13
It could have been the spider monkey or whatever.
38:15
It could have been the zebra, but He picked the great ape, and we became bearers of the image of God.
38:19
I say this one is absolutely unbiblical because that would say that God is essentially not creating us as special creations in His image.
38:30
I don't think that one is biblical.
38:32
Now, Old Earth creationism, while I do not agree with it, and some of you may leave here angry, I'm going to say this.
38:41
There are guys like Hugh Ross and others who hold to an Old Earth view, but do hold that man was a special creation of God, and while I would disagree with him, I don't think he's outside the kingdom.
38:52
I think he's wrong, and there's a difference.
38:57
I think on this issue we can disagree and still godly disagree.
39:02
Hugh Ross and others take an Old Earth position, but he still believes that man is a special creation of God.
39:07
He doesn't believe in theistic evolution.
39:09
So there is a line there that I like to make.
39:13
I am a young Earth guy.
39:15
I don't believe that the Earth needed to exist prior to man because the Earth was created for man.
39:22
The Earth was created for man to subdue, and so why would it exist for 8.5 billion years, and then finally 7,000 years ago God decided to do something with it? That for me is a logical question, and a theological question.
39:42
Why do I need to believe that the Earth is 8.5 billion years old, 8.4 billion years old, if the Bible says it was created for man to subdue? That means the vast majority of time it's been here, man wasn't even there to do what he was meant to do.
39:59
So the Earth had no purpose outside of what God created it for.
40:06
He created it to be subdued and ruled over by man, that man would function in the Earth as the governor of this Earth, as the image bearer of God.
40:16
So I tend to be a young Earth guy for a theological reason, and what I think is a logical reason, but I don't condemn an old Earth guy as long as he does not deny that man is a special creation of God.
40:31
Some people would.
40:32
Some people would say, those guys are out of the kingdom, they're absolutely condemned.
40:35
I can't go there, even though I disagree with a lot of people on a lot of things, and I don't think they're necessarily out of the kingdom just because I disagree with them.
40:43
Now on this, I do want to add something.
40:48
The scientists who make the argument about young Earth are oftentimes ostracized from the overarching scientific community.
41:02
And if you go into the science classroom and you talk about a young Earth, they will laugh you out of the room because they have already decided that it can't be true.
41:13
They work from a presupposition of anti-supernaturalism.
41:19
Let me unpack that big phrase.
41:21
They presume that there's nothing outside of the natural, that everything is natural, and the only way to get where we are now is naturally billions of years.
41:36
There were two men that were very important in the 1800s.
41:39
One was the name of Charles Darwin.
41:41
I'm sure you're all familiar with him.
41:43
There was also a man named Charles Lyell.
41:47
If Charles Lyell had not written and taught what he taught, Charles Darwin could not have written and taught what he taught.
41:54
Because up until that time, the belief was that the Earth was not as old as they were saying, but you know, 7,000, 10,000 years maybe.
42:03
But Charles Lyell came up with the doctrine, and it is called the doctrine of uniformitarianism.
42:11
This is actually part of my master's thesis I wrote on the doctrine of uniformitarianism.
42:14
The belief that all change happens slowly and uniformly over long periods of time.
42:24
And thus, for something like the Grand Canyon, or something like the Great Mountains of the Alps, or whatever, it takes so long for those things to form that the only way that those could exist is if the Earth has been here billions and billions of years.
42:42
And thus, Lyell's uniformitarianism gave birth to Darwin's evolutionary theory because Darwin needed the time to go from a single cell to a multi-celled organism to a very brilliant thinking organism like me.
42:58
What I'm saying is, Charles Darwin didn't have the time for it to work.
43:04
Charles Lyell comes in, and he gives him the time.
43:07
And now these two men work together, and out of that grows this new theory.
43:11
The Earth is billions of years old because now we have the reason for the time.
43:16
Here's my argument.
43:17
I had this argument with a science teacher when I worked at First Coast High School.
43:20
I was working on my master's thesis.
43:23
And he asked, what are you working on? And I said, I'm working on my thesis on the young age of the Earth.
43:30
And he said, well, if you believe the Earth is young, you have to deny uniformitarianism.
43:35
I said, I do.
43:39
And he looked at me like I had three heads.
43:41
I said, I deny uniformitarianism.
43:44
I believe in something called catastrophism.
43:48
Catastrophism is the idea that geological formations can happen in a day given the right circumstances.
43:58
The Grand Canyon could be carved in a day under the right circumstances.
44:04
There is a 30-foot rock layer that was put down in one afternoon as a result of the eruption of Mount St.
44:12
Helens the year I was born.
44:13
It was welcoming me into the world.
44:16
1980, Mount St.
44:17
Helens erupts, lays down a 30-foot rock wall.
44:21
But it's not 30 foot of solid rock.
44:24
It's 30 foot of multiple layers of rock because as the lava is coming down, it's putting layer upon layer upon layer.
44:32
And if a geologist didn't know it was put down in one afternoon, they would conjecture that this strata took this amount of time, this layer took this amount of time, this layer took this amount of time.
44:43
And they would go back and re-engineer thousands of years for that rock layer to go down.
44:49
And it happened in one afternoon.
44:52
And it carved a canyon, exactly.
44:55
We see catastrophes creating geological anomalies all over the world.
45:03
Think about when the tsunami hit Japan.
45:06
The whole landscape changed as a result of that tsunami.
45:10
Think about the hurricane when it hit Louisiana.
45:15
It's not the same anymore.
45:18
Catastrophes create massive change in short amounts of time.
45:24
So when I look at the history of the world, I don't see a really long history where things were taking a little bit of time.
45:30
I see the history of the world like a battlefield.
45:34
Battlefields will sometimes go days without anything happening.
45:38
And then they'll erupt in battle for just a short amount of time.
45:41
And then they'll go back to quiet for a little while.
45:42
And then they'll erupt in battle for a short amount of time.
45:44
And then they'll go back to quiet.
45:45
Same with the age of the earth.
45:47
If you look at it as simply eruption of things over time, eruption of catastrophes over time, that gives an understanding of why we see a world that has giant mountains and deep valleys.
46:00
Oh, and by the way, if you believe in Noah's flood, then it answers a lot of these questions.
46:06
Because the flood of Noah...
46:08
By the way, there's no way to know what the earth looked like when it was created.
46:12
Because it doesn't look the same anymore.
46:16
After the flood, everything changed.
46:18
The whole topography of the world changed when Noah's flood happened.
46:23
The earth split in half.
46:25
Water came from above and below.
46:27
Everything changed.
46:28
Yes, sir? Yep.
46:42
And there's a belief that the reason for that was because there was a change in atmospheric conditions that men were able to live longer before the flood.
46:51
Because with the flood came a change in the ozone and everything else.
46:55
Everything in the world changed.
47:02
Yeah, exactly.
47:06
Yep.
47:31
In six days, yep.
47:43
You know what I respond with? And not to be sarcastic, but somebody says, I don't think God created the world in six days.
47:54
I said, I don't know what took him so long.
47:56
Six days seems like an awful long time to somebody who can speak something into existence.
48:00
I mean, it just seems like arbitrarily long amount of time.
48:05
You know, six days.
48:06
He could have spoken it all into existence in an instant.
48:09
Yes, sir? Yeah.
48:44
Sure.
48:56
Yeah.
48:57
And again, I'm not saying old earth creationist guys are right in any way.
49:02
They deny a lot that I think is bad.
49:05
A lot of old earth guys deny the universality of the flood.
49:09
They believe it was local.
49:11
You have to deny scripture.
49:15
Before the flood, there was no running.
49:17
Yep.
49:18
And also, the scripture says he will not destroy the world with water again.
49:25
There's local floods all the time.
49:26
So if we believe that Noah's flood was a local flood, and we see local floods now all the time, then God's a liar.
49:33
So that's an issue of the integrity of scripture.
49:36
So again, I'm not proposing that old earth creationism is right.
49:39
I'm just saying that if somebody came and told me that they were an old earth person, but they loved Jesus, they repented of their sins, and they just weren't where I am on that issue yet, I'm not going to tell them they're not in the kingdom.
49:50
You understand? I'm trying to be gracious on an issue that is truly one that I think God really is gracious to open our hearts about because we're all, most of you went to public school.
50:03
Most of you were taught without any question that the universe is 8.4, or the universe is 30 billion years old.
50:11
The earth is 8.4 billion years old.
50:13
And it was told to you.
50:15
My kids watch Sesame Street.
50:17
And Elmo talks about the earth being 8 billion years old.
50:23
It's so ensconced in man's philosophy that it's hard to get around.
50:31
So I understand if somebody has difficulty with it.
50:33
Yes, go ahead.
50:41
That's right.
50:42
Believing in young earth creationism isn't what saves you.
50:44
Believing in the gospel is what saves you.
50:46
Believing in young earth creationism helps you understand the Bible, helps you understand Jesus and His work.
50:53
Again, helps you understand that creation is a special event.
50:56
God created man in His image at a particular time in history.
51:00
And that's the most important part.
51:01
If you deny the creation of man as a special being in the image of God, you've denied the gospel.
51:06
Yes.
51:06
Just follow through.
51:08
I think that we need to keep in mind, you know, when man sinned, you know...
51:15
Absolutely.
51:16
The curse.
51:18
Now every time I give my wife a rose, it comes with a thorn.
51:22
That's right.
51:23
The earth could be aging much quicker than what it would have been over the 7,000 years.
51:29
Yeah, it says it groans.
51:30
It groans, right.
51:31
I mean, when we can look at that, there's different ways, but like I said, just keeping it simple for what the Lord said.
51:39
Man was cursed.
51:41
Women were cursed for our sins.
51:43
And the earth is also paying for it.
51:44
And it groaned for the return of the Lord.
51:47
Exactly.
51:48
Well, guys, we are out of time.
51:49
Yes.
51:51
Yeah.
52:20
No, I don't...
52:27
He gave a specific time, the 120 years, but it wasn't...
52:31
I don't remember a time extension in Genesis 6.
52:35
Anybody know? Huh? Yeah.
52:42
The only time I remember God giving an extension of time was when Hezekiah was dying and the king was given an additional time of life.
52:50
That's the only time that I...
52:51
There was a man who was dying.
52:53
They prayed, and God extended his life even though he was supposed to die.
52:58
And the extension of the day.
53:01
Huh? It's not stupid.
53:05
It's certainly not stupid.
53:06
It's just...
53:07
It's a legitimate question.
53:09
I don't think...
53:10
I don't remember seeing that in the text.
53:12
I would have to double check, but I don't believe it's there.
53:14
Yeah.
53:15
All right, guys.
53:16
We do have to cut for time.
53:18
I know some of you would like to get home before breakfast.
53:21
So...
53:23
Was this helpful? Yes.
53:25
You enjoy this? Yes.
53:26
Well, good.
53:27
Well, maybe in a couple months we'll do it again.
53:29
All right, let's pray.
53:30
Father, thank You for an opportunity to study the Word, to talk about important subjects, to clear up questions.
53:38
I just pray that it's been edifying for Your people and that it will glorify Your name.
53:42
In Christ's name we pray.
53:43
Amen.