Interview with Rick Walston of CES on the Validity of Dr. White's Doctoral Degree

This is the dividing line the Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation and now with today's topic. Here is James white and good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce. I'm sitting in for dr white today and We have some things to cover as I will be interviewing.

Straight Gate Archive Problems and Program Logistics

Dr Rick Walston who's on hold right now and listening in on our conversation and a couple of things that I want to bring everybody up to speed on real quick before we bring dr Walston on to the line and that is first of all, I want to talk a little bit about straight gate .com and I have been getting a good many emails as of late and deservedly so Wanting to know what's going on with straight gate and how come all of our archives?

That that exist over at straight gate aren't playing. Well, the truth of the matter is is that somewhere around the last week of April I can't put my finger on the exact date straight gate their host server that actually hosts the real audio files crashed and Steven Luker who is in charge of straight gate well Steve when he selects a host for the the system for the files to reside on he He has to shop around a good bit because when you're talking about it You know, I think is upwards of 30 gigabytes of files that reside on his system that's a tremendous amount of space to be renting from someone and gets very very expensive and So the the provider there He selected was shall we say inexpensive for that kind of space and the problem is is that as we anticipated when the report was made that the server had crashed.

We anticipated that it would be up in 24 hours. We anticipated that it would be up in 48 hours. We anticipated that it would be up in a week in two weeks any day any moment at any time and that system is still down and I'm sorry to say and So keep Steven Luker in your prayers.

I think a lot of folks don't realize how much Steven puts into straight gate and making that site available. It is costly to do that and Steven is in a situation I think at this point to where he's going to have to find another ISP a provider and That is a difficult circumstance Given the amount of data that he has to go and and number one find the kind of space that he's going to need to Get in order to to host that site for him.

So please understand that we're doing what we can to To get straight back straight gate back online to get the real audio archive of the dividing line back online. We have a small archive or a small amount of space on the server that we use for this program and we're providing some at least current history files over there for folks and That's right monogram this year this this year.

It should be back this year and anyway, the Please pray that Steve is able to get that back online soon and and that it would be a Priority of an affordable environment for us that that he could be able to do that anyway, moving right along I Believe is three weeks ago.

We covered the Gary Novak story. I did a program on there I haven't been on the air in a while. And so it was a little bit like trying to get my feet back underneath me again after not walking for some time.

But I think I'm back in the action again here and I've got my rhythm back not so many you know stuff like that, but On hold and let's go ahead and bring him on the on the air. Now is dr. Rick Walston.

Dr. Walston. Are you there? Can you hear me? I am here. It's good to hear your voice sir Warren if I can get a little bit more volume on my headset here from dr Walston, I'd like to be able to hear him just a little bit better and How is how's the weather up there you're in you're in Washington State, right?

What city are you in. Buckley in Buckley? Uh-huh, and There's that sound again Warren boy. I hate that. We rewired the board a couple of weeks ago. Dr Walston and thought we had all the kinks worked out of it and maybe he needs to just back off my headphones a little bit I'm not sure but anyway One of the things I really want to get into and you you heard my my show when I covered The show on Gary Novak and his commentary regarding.

Dr. White's Doctorate the degrees that dr. White has earned and that he did those through CES and folks for those who do not know Dr. Walston's affiliation. He is the president of Columbia Evangelical Seminary and And He has also written a book that we are now featured featuring at a omen org called Walston's guide to Christian distance distance learnings earning degrees non-traditionally and We're gonna cover not only talking about dr. Walston's point of view Regarding Gary Novak's charges.

We're also going to get into dr. Walston's book as well as talk about Columbia Evangelical Seminary and What is going on there? What kind of students are signing up for? Columbia what what kind of interest what kind of things draw a student to?

Columbia and one of the things I do know for a fact and dr. Walston I'm not sure if you're aware but on the dividing line one of the things that we have is it's an interactive program we have a chat room and Our chat room right now has about 23 people in there.

Most of them are listening to the program as we speak. And so I actually can monitor the program the chat room and as people make comments in the chat room. It's kind of their way of talking back with us and one of the things that what's that?

Yes, I can read what they're saying. But I you know, we don't like to feed into the hiding behind the computer screen kind of mentality we like to encourage these folks to call in and get on the line and so Want to do that right now and let these folks know that they can call in get on the line at eight six six eight five four six seven six three and again, eight six six eight five four six seven six three and there's one individual in particular that I know is a current student at CES and he has given me a great deal of feedback regarding his experience at CDC CES and I do want to encourage him quite strongly to to give us a call and Interact with dr. Walston in And being able to talk about his experience at CES now, dr. Walston Focusing on Gary Novak's summation of all of what Went back and forth between him and dr. White and some of the points that he made I'd like to get an idea of what you've read and and what your thoughts are about his conclusions that he's drawn in that in that whole.

Correspondence. Well, the first thing I'd like to state is that mr. Novak's issues are not about dr. White's degrees. The real issue for mr. Novak is dr. White's theology. What mr Novak has done is introduce a way a red herring into the discussion and logic a red herring is anything that draws attention away from the central issue.

You see for every minute that mr Novak can get dr. White in a discussion in defense of his own degrees. That is one more minute that he puts dr. White's energy and our eyes on something other than the central issue.

And that's the more of an error. In fact when this all began, which was a few years ago. My nephew who is only 18 years old at the time. His name is Brandon. He looked at what mr Novak had to say and he looked at the situation and he said if mr Novak has a problem with dr. White's theology, then that's what he should address to talk about his degrees.

It's simply irrelevant and that from an 18 year old boy. So I thought that was pretty bright on his part interesting. Now we also remember Walter Martin most of us and Martin once said you can win a fight with a skunk but why would you want to and One of my former pastors had said To me in discussion about you know, the mudslinging that people do it from time to time.

He said have you ever noticed that if you actually get real mud on your clothes and you try to wipe it off you just smear It in but if you let that mud set Dry and cake it's rather easy to brush off after a while.

So in my ministry and in my life I've attempted to make it my personal rule to stay in line with those concepts. Don't fight skunks and don't wipe mud. But sometimes we have to defend situations that are there even though it's just mudslinging and so these this is one of those times.

I think that we really have to deal with it interesting excellent now. Specifically, I think that there are some things in his conclusions that we need to to deal with and Again, remind our listeners.

I put a web page together that kind of links all this together and after our Discussion is over with today. I'll add the two programs to that web page. It is a omin org forward slash Novak that's in lowercase letters dot HTML and And folks can go and basically go through the history of all the different exchanges that took place but ultimately what In in in mr Novak's last commentary which was titled of James White and the Salt River or dr White leads an excursion in the art of non sequitur and ad hominem and in which piglet nearly meets a heffa lump.

He. He makes some conclusions or draw some conclusions that he kind of indicates that dr White didn't deal with certain things or is missing the point or Is somehow Dodging the issue the real issue and I'm wondering if it's possible that you could Could interact with some of the points that he makes sure do you want to read them?

Yeah, and he begins in his first section here. He says now I'm not interested in a whole host of issues with which dr White seems to believe are critical to any discussion of his THD. I'm not interested in one his books.

Two articles three tapes and virtually all of the materials that he sells on his website and on the website of his church. The content and competence of those materials is not the issue. I'm simply shelving that question for the time being neither.

Am I calling into question? Dr. White's scholarship as he correctly notes scholarship and degrees are two separate things. Again, I'm shelving that question for the time being. The one question with which I am interested is the validity of dr White's THD.

Did dr. White do the things that normal doctoral students do to agree and in my opinion There's nobody who can answer that question short of dr. White himself, but no one who can answer that question more.

Effectively than you sir. Well, thank you. I think the first thing we have to understand is there's an old phrase called framing the issue and Mr. Novak as is actually an expert at that when he says that he's not interested in a whole host of issues.

And then he goes through to name. He's not interested in dr. White's books and articles and tapes. The problem of course is that he's saying he does not want to discuss the very products of dr White's THD.

So in other words, he's not interested in the very things that dr. White did to earn the degree. He's not interested in dr. Dr. White's book on Roman Catholicism, but that was the product of one of his classes.

He's not interested in dr. White's book on Mormonism, but that was the product of one of his classes. He's not interested in dr. White's book on the Trinity, but that was the product of one of his classes.

So it's disingenuous for mr. Novak to say on the one hand that he's not interested in the various scholarly products that James White has produced. He's only interested in what dr. White did to earn his THD.

When in fact those products are the results of his His THD program interesting. So it's it's just it doesn't follow. How can you say I'm not interested in all the things He did for his degree. I'm only interested in what he did to earn his degree now.

I did find this.

Point interesting in that I got early on the impression. Let me put it this way. I get the impression that in his concluding statements I think he contradicts what he's interested in as you read through the whole series and He He puts a tone of sinister nature in for instance the King James only controversy Book being accepted by CES.

The work that dr. White did prior to coming to CES, right? Is something sinister going on there, I mean, is that something that's unusual.

In American education in that a lot of schools to the fact and all their work after the fact. There's I don't want to brush all schools with one broad brush. But quite often the reason for that is because there's less money and just simply having students hand in work previously done.

As long as that work wasn't done out for it for credits elsewhere because then they're not taking the students to the full program. There are schools in European countries that will in fact Accept a book written of both dissertations and theses.

So there's nothing unusual. There's nothing sinister about it. The the thing is one has to determine whether or not the material done Rises to the level for the degree that the person is seeking and then to the material done.

Cannot have been used in the past for credits elsewhere and dr White's book the King James only controversy had not been used elsewhere and anybody with Any kind of honesty and integrity who reads that book will certainly think that it rises to the level.

So no, I mean I do I catch the implication as well that you mentioned that Novak has there. It's and I noticed that throughout his writings. He has these little innuendos that make it look like you might be if you didn't know anybody you go.

Yeah, what about that? It seems like there's something wrong there. Yeah. Well in that particular case There's nothing wrong at all. And this is something that he's thrown out there to give some sort of a false idea.

That there is something sinister when in fact, there's not okay interesting.

Well, the next point that he goes into is really kind of in dealing with James's Interaction with him and he points to as he puts it. He breaks him down claim one claim to claim three James As he puts it claims, mr Novak did not bother to actually find out what the requirements for my doctorate were now as I understand it from mr Novak's Visit to CES.

He visited with you, right? Right. That's true. Okay, so he says in response to that actually I did Although not in the way that dr. White would seemingly require. I read dr. White's web page on his degree I read the entire Columbia Evangelical Seminary CES website I ordered the CD CES catalog and read that in its entirety.

I arranged for a visit to the seminary I held dr. White's master's contract in my hand and read that as well. Now before you respond to that I want to let folks know that actually later on in the program.

We're gonna be focusing on a book that you wrote regarding Christian distance learning and the thing that I find interesting is is that Mr. Novak as I see it is trying to pass himself off as someone who is Has an expertise in what the standards?

Regarding how a school evaluates someone Should be in our but in fact you've written a book right on that subject. You're right. He does do that He puts himself in a position.

Well what has happened I think and I give him somewhat credit here is that he has seen how it operates in certain schools that He's been around that he's worked with and said, aha. Therefore also should all schools should work in the same fashion.

The problem of course is if you deal with schools Throughout the US and if you deal with schools outside of the US things are not as simple black and white as you know. One school may be I know that Mr. Novak's will be college and I think it's Portland Oregon or Gresham, Oregon.

And you know, there's a pattern there that they use but that doesn't mean every school uses it. Some do some don't and so he's reading far too much into a Set of schools or a few schools concepts about how they do things and assuming that all schools must act the same way.

And that should simply this comment. You've just read you said that or his comment said that he did check things out. He he read the mr. Dr. White's web page on his degree. He read the entire Columbia catalog.

He in fact even held dr. White's master's contract in his hand. Master's contract. I thought he was his issue was the doctorate program. That's an excellent point. Yeah, I mean, this is amazing. This is an amazing statement that he's arguing.

James Addresses the concept that he did not check the what he did for his doctorate and in response part of his responses. I even held his master's contract in my hand has nothing to do with it. Mm-hmm.

Besides the whole thing is simply astounding. Anyway, I would hope that any degree is more involved than simply what's on a school's website or in their catalog. And as far as holding, dr. White's master's contract in his hand and reading it he did.

I was there. He looked at it. But it should be obvious that the contract is just an outline of the work and not the work itself. But see this gets back to his initial framing of this of the issue. I'm not interested in what he's produced.

I'm only interested in his degree. Well, he can't be interested in the degree and what he did for the great if he's not interested in what he produced. And so he's he's looking at everything except the final product.

Interesting, I think when mr. Novak says with great gusto that he has done his research into dr. White's work. It's just simply false unless he's read all of dr. White's books. Articles listen to the audio tapes that were the products of his DHD.

Then his boast that he has researched with dr. White has done for his degree is simply ridiculous and and what's amazing is is that?

He's specifically stated that he's not interested in any of that exactly. You see that's that's the disingenuousness.

I'd like to come up with a quick analogy nothing comes to mind, but to say simply I'm not interested in all the things he's done for his degree. I just want to know what he did for his degree. I mean the obvious smokescreen here, so.

Blatant, I'm surprised that more people haven't caught it. Yeah, and what's what's fascinating about? This is I think the analogy is pretty plain and it has to do with the religion that mr Novak is involved in.

It is typically a don't confuse me with the facts. I've made my mind up. Position. Yeah, and and I think that's really consistent. He is at least in that regard consistent as he's conducted himself here.

Well, you know I think is mrs. Calling. He should be a politician.

Excellent point okay. As he deals with the the next portion of James remarks claim number two James speaking my own program Has amounted to more than four times the number of credit hours mr. Novak indicated and mr. Novak responds so what I've never complained about the number of credit hours that dr. White put into his degree.

This is a non-issue indeed dr. White had already made much of the number of hours he put into his degree. This is simply besides the point now I want to point out here That this is an outright lie because if you go back to believe it's item I Don't have the I've got papers here going right all okay in in sections.

Where he talks about the standards, okay first of all in in his first correspondence. Number seven James White's master's contract also indicates. He would do 45 hours. He points out how many hours he was to do and then asked the question or he says it wouldn't indicate what the courses were.

But There's also another item in here it is What does it take to get a real degree in? Paragraph two he says typically and he goes into all this well the whole point James of James even mentioning. This is in response to Novak bringing it up, and so that's that's what I found.

I found absolutely Amazing that he could turn around and say I never brought this up so what I never complained about this well guess what he?

Did and not to say simply that he never complained about. He says this is simply beside the point. Which is amazing to me? I mean anybody that's done any kind of academic studies knows that. Credits are exactly the point.

Along with how much you do work you do the number of credits that one does for his degree. Cannot be be beside the point because then you'd have some people doing six credits for a master's degree and another person doing a hundred.

Credits, I mean this is ludicrous to think that be a number of credits and in essence I want to ask this question.

Regarding credits can can a student go to quote accredited schools and To get the same degree from one school have to put in a different amount of hours For that degree as opposed to another school and have to put in much less actually.

It depends on the degree the MA for instance. It's kind of a slippery degree in one school in MA may be 32 credits. In another school in MA in a different subject matter. May be 96 credits. So there are some leeway between schools as to how many credits goes to goes with with an MA for instance.

But there are some degrees that are pretty standard. The MDiv is typically 96 credits. They're about sometimes as few as 90 Credits, but that's pretty close. The THM that dr. White did is a hundred and twenty eight credits.

Which a lot of people don't even realize that. That the THM if one starts with a back and does a THM you have four? Years ahead of you for that degree. It's it is in fact the largest master's degree in any field.

And not only did James do the THD with us By excuse me THM with us the master of theology. But he brought credits in from fuller that he had already done an MA now. I don't remember right off how many credits that he did for his MA in fuller.

But he was able of course to transfer those in and then complete Finish off the rest which was a total of 128 credits. So there is some leeway between some degrees, but certain degrees are pretty standard.

Interesting. Okay, and we were burning time like crazy here, but this is a fascinating discussion I think. Going to I'm actually going to shift gears a little bit here because I think in. Well, let's talk about this a second.

I claim number three. Quoting me about 155 total students passed through the institution. Dr. White has have Not confirmed that number, but it sounds right. He responds I am gratified that I was able to report something correctly.

I'm all the more gratified because Rick Walston provided the number hopefully dr. White and I agree that CES is a very small school and in eight years has been able to attract only a handful of Students.

So is that what you're guilty of there dr.

Walston yes, this is this is humorous on two levels number one Why he doesn't say why we are a quote-unquote unable to attract students and then number two What is this got to do with what he said he's interested in what James White did for his degree.

How many how many? students We have is completely irrelevant to what James did for his degree. Again in the smoke screens the disingenuous Concepts I mean the statements is they're just full of them. But let's let's talk about the the statement that I have the there's there's a lot of schools as you mentioned earlier I've written a book on distance learning and it's in its fourth edition.

And it's been out now for almost a decade and I co-authored that book in the early editions with one dr. John bear who is probably the granddaddy of distance learning education and what that means he's Worked with the FBI in both tracking down diploma mills.

He's also appeared in federal court as the expert FBI witness in helping to bust diploma mills. He's also worked with programs like inside edition 60 minutes. Various ones like this most recently he was on good morning America.

Just I think in the last couple months Dr.. White's books excuse me dr. Bears books on these topics have sold well over 300 ,000 and he is just the end undisputed Champion of this concept. Now he and I together Produced the first two issues of the book that I'm talking about in doing my research and in having dr. Bears input over the years I have found hundreds of schools that operate so substandardly.

That a person can simply listen to a an hour-long audio tape and answer ten questions True or false and then get their degree, and I know that sounds ridiculous, but it actually goes on. Now some of these type schools have they claim thousands and thousands of graduates now would mr. Novak taking his logic would he go on to say therefore these schools that have so many graduates must be good.

CES must be bad because we only have a hand few handful, but this school Which has you know 10 ,000 graduates, but they only require an hour-long tape for a degree or a class they must be good. I mean, it's just absolutely ludicrous.

One of the things that we've always strived to do as a school is demand excellent work. And we've had a lot of people simply drop out because they realize what they enrolled. Whoops. This is too hard and so the fact that we have had few students go through our program has never been a negative for us.

It's always been a point of a positive because we would rather have 10 people graduate per year who had really put in the work. Who are able now to put a degree on the wall that they can be proud of then a hundred thousand students going through That do nothing for their degree so then again two things number one this has nothing to do with what James I did first degree.

And number two the concept that simply because we're small or bad just doesn't fly.

Okay, well dr. Walston. We're gonna take a quick break here, and we'll pick this up on the other side. I look forward to that conversation. We'll put you on hold and we'll be right back with the dividing line.

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Accreditation, Degree Requirements, and Distance Learning

And welcome back to the dividing line, my name is Rick Pierce and I'm sitting in for dr White this week as he is back in New York. Yes, it's great debate time all over again. And he is in fact, we heard from him about 15 minutes before the program started and he sounded like a very tired puppy.

Let me tell you they like to run him all around When when they get him back there and my understanding is that he taught from 9 a .m. To 3 p .m Today and one must understand that that's New York time.

So he finally finished up I guess around 6 p .m that night so Anyway, we are talking with dr. Rick Walston and we're going over some of the claims that mr. Gary Novak Has made on his website a few years ago and those claims have been now picked up by the shields people.

And we're kind of responding to and going over the claims that he's made in his summation. Dr Walston, are you still there? I'm here. All right. I'm glad to hear that. Let me tell you We will be taking some phone calls here from you folks.

Soon I hope as the lines are starting to light up again, it's 8 6 6 8 5 4 6 7 6 3 and dr Walston, I do want to apologize about last week. We here boy tell you sometimes we just never know who's shooting at us and sometimes those those shots require immediate response.

And so I kind of got a little bit preempted on our program and it was a surprise. So I want to apologize for not being able to get you on when we when we had hoped to be able to do that.

And those I would like to address one thing One of our one of our students lives in China. Dan hello, and he wrote to an email after I did not Appear on the broadcast last week and he said dr. Refuses to be on the dividing line broadcast unless he can promote his garage sale.

My wife is handling the garage sale today as we speak.

Well folks if you're listening in Washington, I want you to remember the dr. Walston has got a garage sale going on. There you go. And I get over there and Get over there and help out. Okay, well, let's uh, let's quickly get through the remaining items at least the high points of what are on Mr. Novak's list here.

I think we've at least painted pretty clearly the basis of the remarks we've covered already and. Let me um, let me just summarize here what's going on with the library thing? Okay, what's you know? He gets into this.

There's no library man. And of course, you probably heard my uh, my comments in the last program about well, you know I still I think the biggest thing that CES needs to be legitimate is a football team.

And even without the football team There's you know, people don't have ability to you know to be able to do real studies without it.

Yeah, you gotta have you gotta have the sports. Well. Earlier, I mentioned dr. John bear my co-author of the first two editions of my book. He once said that for those schools like ours We should just have a chess chess team so that we could play at a distance.

So I thought that was that was pretty good. Well, you know.

That's one good point a debate team. There might be rather appropriate as well. Sure, but now he Seems to make a big deal and I think I know the answer to this. But he makes a big deal about the library thing and right really going after I guess the legitimacy of CES not Providing its students With the kind of learning environment that say for instance a Rio Salado here in Arizona, right?

Because they would have a library there that the student can go to to do research to.

To deal with his workload. I know mr. Novak had pointed out a couple schools that were on campus schools that also offered distance learning education. See that's where the breakdown of logic comes. If you have an on-campus school, of course, they have a library.

But if you don't have an on-campus school, I'm reminded of one of our graduates a doctor of ministry graduate who lived in Scotland. Well for goodness sakes, I cannot imagine demanding him to fly to America to use our library.

I mean that would just be ludicrous. We were able to set him up with a mentor who lived in Wales wasn't too far for where he was at the mentor himself Is a the president of the National Library of Wales, which is a Queen appointed position as I understand it.

So I don't think that the man was without Resources, you know just that he could not fly to Longview where our headquarters is and say well I'm going to study here at the library. I mean it was just it's it's an obvious Red herring again.

It's one of those things that simply does not make sense. In my own doctor of ministry that I did through an accredited school, which is an issue for dr.

To be accredited. So let's talk about that for just a second. Let's say I want to correct you there. It's mr. Novak not dr. No.

Good. Thanks for that. Correct. Mr Novak makes a point of the accreditation issue and I did a doctor of ministry from an accredited school and they have a library. I didn't enter their library one time.

Internet resources my own library which numbers nearly two thousand weight of me going to a library where a more larger than what they had. Plus other students that I was studying with at the time also never entered the library.