Dr. Voddie Baucham on “Ethnic Gnosticism”

Live casting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

The Trinity Debate and the Elephant Room Controversy

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. It all started out, of course. Well with the following exchange, let's let's listen once again to. Well what we've been talking about now for a couple days and people continue talking about on the internet, let's listen.

We also agree in the nature of God there's mystery and it's like a dimmer switch. How much certainty how much mystery. Thank you, but within that mr. Jakes for you, you know the issue between trinitarianism and modalism at its essence is one God manifesting himself Successively in three ways or one God three persons.

Simultaneously. Existing eternally. So your best understanding now and I understand there is some mystery for sure. Would you say it's one God? Manifesting himself in three ways or one God in three persons.

Yeah, and I believe that that's either one of them totally did it for me. But I think the latter one is where I stand today. What about three persons about the one God three persons and one God three persons and here is why I am there.

I'm not crazy about the word person that this is most people who call me know that that is really my doctoral statement. It's not different from your except for them. It's the manifest instead of person which you described as modalist and I described as Pauline.

When I read let me show you what I'm saying, but I read when I read first Timothy 316 I knew I didn't create this modalist in and without controversy because I think we have we have bickered about something.

That is what Paul describes a mystery. I don't think we should do that and without Controversy great is the mystery of Godliness. So God was manifest in the flesh. Now Paul's not a modalist. But he does not think that it is robbery to the divinity of God to think God was Manifest in the flesh and I think it's maybe the semantics could be this way or that way.

But Paul says this before this fight was started. He was manifest in the flesh. Justified in the spirit seeing the angels who preached up to the Gentiles believed on the world and received up into glory.

Now when we start talking about that sort of thing I think that it was important that we realize that there are distinctness between the father and the working of the son. Father didn't leave father. Only in the person of Jesus Christ coming back for us from the birth of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ has been with us. But only in dwells us through the personal Holy Spirit. We are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of that is objectionable to any of the three of us so far.

I don't know. So that is consistent with my belief system. Yeah I'm with you. I have been with you. I teach, preach that all the time. There are many people within and outside of quote-unquote Denominations that are labeled ones that would describe them the same way there are some that would not.

But when we get to know people by their labels. Then there comes all the baggage of how we define that label and we mismanage. It's almost like stereotypical ideologies we have about racists. We have a lot of ideas about Denominations and movements.

The reason I applied what you said earlier about people who have dual affiliations. We are taught in our society that if we disagree with any movement We leave, we sever everything. You know, oh you said somebody disagreed with you, we fall out with them and walk away.

I still have fellowship, association, relationships, and positions. Okay, so there you have.

There you have, well, what took place. You have the elephant room too. You have The discussion concerning the Trinity and manifestations and and all those things like that and Look everyone listened if you're listening right now you listened To what I said back on Friday, and what did I do?

I played stuff from what TD Jakes had said in the past and and we looked at oneness sources and we did all that stuff and I Thought what I was doing was discussing the important issue of the doctrine of the Trinity and over the weekend.

I began to realize That to be honest with you a Lot of people didn't hear me talking about the Trinity and all of a sudden I started realizing you know what? There are a lot of folks that aren't hearing what I said about the doctrine of Trinity because to be honest with you they Don't really think that I have the right to be addressing this subject because of who TD Jake says and I was very very concerned as I began to realize that the issue of race Was taking a central place in this conversation and I don't understand it and so I reached out to someone who might be able to help us and He's joining me on the program today.

I am talking to dr. Vodie Balcom. Hello, sir. How are you? It's good to be with you, too. Most folks in the audience know you better than they know me, but One thing that they need to know is that you're the pastor of preaching a grace family Baptist Church in spring, Texas now where?

Texas is a nation unto itself. So Spring would be approximately where in that big place. Okay, you're a Houston suburb, okay. All right. Well, I was in Houston not very long ago. Knowing how much you travel and I travel we probably weren't there at the same time anyways.

But that means it's real nice and dry there during the summer, right? That's true you didn't the had the humidity it just didn't get the just didn't get the rain. It was supposed to come along with it.

How long have you been pastoring down there? And you've also served as an adjunct professor at the College of Biblical Studies in Houston Union University in Jackson lectured at Southern Seminary and You know a little something about this situation because Rumor is and we haven't had the opportunity of actually meeting yet.

Unfortunately, but but rumor is I've heard that you're actually a black man. Am I right about that? I've also heard that you are a little bit larger than I am. Is that is that true? Are you how? In fact Todd Friel said he mentioned you.

I was listening to a wretched radio Broadcast from a couple days ago, and he said you could break him in half like a twig. But I think what he meant was that you're even bigger than he is. So when you do apologetics then You you have an advantage that I know I no longer have.

I was once a pretty big guy back in About six seven years ago, but I've I've gotten back on the bike and so now I'm not that at all. So but you do apologetics. I do apologetics. I think we're about the only two Reformed Baptist apologists on the planet.

So we pretty much fill out the entire club and we still haven't met. So I was thinking spring Texas sounds like a great place to have a debate someday with a Muslim. What do you think? Thank you. Yeah, I was gonna say I think you could find a church for me there.

Oh Yeah, that could be very very interesting yeah, especially since the the Muslims are going for Friday they're going for Saturday. We go for Sunday. At least we know which days we can X out of the calendar there.

Well, anyways, I got I got in touch with you. Because I am honestly Confused and first of all, obviously you know far more about this situation than you probably wanted to know. I read your blog article where you related the situation because you actually.

How many people grand total had been invited to the the elephant room, too? I mean We know of at least two are you and Mark Dever that the only two that declined we know of any others. What do you know about that?

Okay, and So you declined an invitation to be there and yet there was something.

Was it the next day or two days after elephant room that you were supposed to speak at. And so in fact.

You had been booked even before the elephant room stuff even became an issue. Yeah. Okay. All right, and that was just a I Don't know. I hate to use the term standard men's conference, but I guess that's terminal use just it wasn't necessarily related to Elephant room right like that.

Okay. All right. Now we know that you flew from Texas I would assume Houston up to Chicago and It was decided in conversations that it would be best that you did not speak because. Well because of why because of what you had said on your blog.

So you got there I guess I guess you had an assistant with you you actually. When you went to the church, were you assuming you were going to be speaking? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay so you had your you had everything prepared and it was only once you got to the church the discussion took place and You discovered that there was already somebody there to take your place I guess at that point.

Yeah, right, right. All right. Okay, so you you had that level.

So you you spoke with James McDonald there and you had that level of Involvement, but my contacting you really Didn't have to do with that too much. Let's get to let's get to the important issue here and what really is troubling troubling me and that is when I As soon as this happened Todd Friel was on my cell phone and I mean from Todd's perspective this was The reversal of the Council of Nicaea, okay, I mean it was I mean, you know the field maestro.

I love the guy and he I mean he just he he operates if we're all 12-volt batteries. He's a 24-volt battery. It's just it's just the way it is. He just on an iPod he's on the to the 2x speed all the time and you know and I I I Had not been looking forward to this.

I knew it was coming I had sort of kept some an eye of an eye on it because I've spoken about Jake's and stuff like that in the past. But I'm trying to write a book on Islam and I've got too many other things going on and so I you know I didn't spend much time on it.

And so when it took place And I listened to the conversation my honestly Vodie I can tell you with with complete integrity the only thing I was listening for was accuracy in handling The issue of the Doctrine of Trinity and a recognition and understanding of modalistic language on the people asking TD Jake's questions that's that was honestly all I was concerned about and I Didn't even watch the videos because I took I pulled the the audio from what was posted on YouTube and I listened to that I wasn't even watching it.

I didn't I didn't know who was talking to him. I mean, I recognized Mark Driscoll's voice, but I didn't know if there's two people ten people I didn't know and I didn't care it just that's not that's not relevant to me.

What was relevant was the issues of accurately handling the Doctrine of the Trinity? I'm sitting here trying to reach out to Muslims and it's somewhat of a distraction to have this going on in the rearview mirror.

Where you're discovering that a lot of people who you thought were on your side actually don't even know what it is you're talking about when you're defending things like the hypostatic Union or The the the eternal existence of the Sun as the Sun and all the rest of stuff okay, so it you know, and so I do my thing on Friday you even Referenced the video when I posted it on a blog article that you wrote where I just I just went through it Did my thing and over the weekend I start realizing That there are people that have started to talk about middle-aged white reformed guys.

Now I'm I think I'm still middle ages. 49 is 49 still middle-aged. I think that's that does that qualify? You let's pass. Okay. Who's the elder here, by the way, because I can't I don't know. Oh, okay.

Well, you're still young in that. Okay. Well, you're definitely middle-aged. I'm I think 55 is about the end of middle age personally. You'll take that and as we get close to 55, we'll push the 60s. Just how it works.

But anyway, I I hadn't I honestly Hadn't it had never crossed my mind. That's that's what you're gonna have to help me with because I don't understand the rules I really I don't get it. I thought that Galatians 328 was pretty clear when it says there is neither June or Greek.

There is neither slave nor free. There's no male or female. You're all one in Christ Jesus. I Thought it was pretty straightforward that what that was saying is that this whole issue of Race, I mean let's if we looked at the Council of Nicaea There weren't any middle-aged white reformed guys there because first reform wouldn't have made any sense and most everybody there would have been a lot Darker than me.

That's for sure. You know and they really wouldn't have looked like much like either one of us even though Athanasius was. They called him a little black dwarf. So, you know, I mean these issues are not defined by race.

So. But they're being heard in that way help me to understand how How do I get past this or what is the real problem here? Should these types of divisions even exist within the Christian faith? Okay, let me Let let me tell you a story and then as a background of asking you to tell me from from your perspective What I need to do or how I need to try to understand The the the perspective that was expressed by some of the black pastors in response to the TD Jake situation and and why and and maybe tell me I See I don't the the very idea of black theology or white theology or any epithet attached to theology gives me the creeps I mean just badly because there is no such thing as a black God or a white God or anything like that and I and In the reason it gives me a creeps.

Let me tell you story and then I'll get your responses that I I And he said the same thing he said he was oblivious he lives in an oblivious state to a lot of the Layers that you were just talking about and it's not because I live in the quote-unquote white church because I don't I mean my church has Hispanics and blacks and whites and and Most of us are just mutts.

We don't know what in the world we are and and you know, and we don't care. It's it's that's not why we're there. So it's it's not something we even think about it doesn't enter in and for me, especially my the first best friend you have in life really impacts you and my first best friend the first friend that I that the person that I in my little mind at that time defined friendship was named Kevin and Kevin was brown and Kevin was brown because Kevin's mommy Was almost albino.

I mean she was mrs. Holden was in it. She was so white well, we lived in Minnesota and I'm afraid that there's a lot of very really white people in Minnesota because you can't get out in the Sun very much and if You do go out during the summer you get eaten by mosquitoes.

So it may have just been you stay inside all the time I don't know but she was as white as could be but Kevin's daddy Kevin's daddy Scared me not because of what color he was but he was huge I mean to a three or four year old this man was huge.

He was a big cop and he was as black as Midnight, I mean he was one of those guys who's so black that if in the dark unless he smiles You ain't gonna see him. He is that kind. We're not talking brown.

We're talking absolutely black. He was the the polar opposite of his wife. And so my first best friend is brown and his mommy and his daddy are different colors. And I think that's just wonderful. And in fact, I still remember learning from my parents that well There's a lot of people who don't think that they should be married I'm like, but why because they were members of our church.

So I'm like, I mean, I'm a kid. I don't know and So my first experience with friendship was with a boy who had a black father and a white mother and I'm just like yeah, but he's my friend. And so from the very start my brain has been wired in such a way.

That all this stuff about yeah, but I'm this color and He's that color and we're this it does not commute Compute with me and it just doesn't become a part of the process by which I even think about things and that's why.

When I listened to the elephant room, and that's why when I first rent read Brian Lawrence's blog up blog article I didn't it never crossed my mind to even ask the question. What color is this man? That's why I was so shocked when the issue of race came up.

I was like, why would somebody raise that? It just it is just that far removed from my experience my thought process because of my of my upbringing that's just the way it was and so with that I'm not sure Bodhi if I'm smart enough to develop a set of filters to avoid You know to start running stuff through a filter to know how to address stuff.

Do I need to is that how do I how do I handle this? I honestly I honestly don't know.

Ethnic Gnosticism and the Limits of Racial Identity

Well, but again, we have to be well, you know duration theology, you know. Divided to make I know I am I am and what you were doing. How has that happened as you see it, right?

Now what I'm hearing from you right now Interestingly enough is The issue see the first place that I saw race brought up Was in the Loritz blog when it talked about white middle-aged reformed guys and I'm hearing you saying you're seeing it in its fullest expression in in essence the the misuse of three black pastors as a mechanism of Defense for what took place and Yet, it's interesting a lot of folks in listening to that Have heard statements that sounded like some of those pastors.

I think specifically Brian Lawrence was We're basically saying well, I think there are some Black pastors out there that want to have a wider audience. And so they're sort of ganging up on Bishop Jake's, so it's it's it sounds like there's multiple different streams Coming all together and creating a massive amount of Confusion depending on how we're listening and how we understand what the motivations were behind the person speaking.

Yeah. Yeah, you're probably right he's there's there's no toys about it Even though I I would I would like to think That on the positive level people have been caused to think about modalism a little bit.

It is discouraging to recognize that Those who actually know modalism best have the the quietest voices in this Situation and those the loudest voices in other words the biggest platforms did not show themselves to be overly insightful as To not only what modalism is and how modalists speak but making direct application to the Christian life the gospel the reasons the importance of Why modalism? totally undercuts The sacrificial work of Christ and the worship of the church and all the rest of these things There just doesn't seem to have been to be almost anybody who has a really big platform That has brought that kind of thing to the fore.

Now you had mentioned specifically though a lot of people have mentioned me let's put this way a lot of people mentioned to me that they interpreted some of the things that were said in the interview, especially the first part of the interview as Being directed at pretty well-known individuals.

That's not really the case, is it?

No, I don't hear right. And you've been speaking about this for a long time. Help help our listeners to understand.

Why would you say something like that. Because so many people Look at him and they see Success they see. He's been on the cover of Time magazine for crying out loud. I'm his time still being published.

It might be. You know, here's here's the very picture of success and and and prominence and and all the rest of stuff and yet here you're talking about a.

Poisonous influence. Why would that be and yet that that was not raised?

There really wasn't much of an explanation as to why but still even even with that looking at the interview that James McDonald did afterwards. None of these pastors would be pastoring churches that would be friendly toward that type of a perspective would they.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can pay for that and.

In many many different ways. Help me to understand if you can and if and if if it's just beyond where we want to go. Just just let me know but help me understand if you can. Why we have seen? Some from the black community.

Listen to what Phil Johnson is saying, okay, Phil Johnson is a white middle-aged reformed guy and James White and People like us and They hear us and yet they hear us in a racial sense. When it's not anywhere in anything that we said, I mean you couldn't find anything and what I said last Friday About elephant room to that could by any stretch of the imagination Be connected to anything Racial at all.

It never once crossed my mind and yet people are hearing it. What do I do about it? What how what can I do about that? If there's anything at all?

My piece about this right, but. One of the thing ethnic. Gnostic. You're not black and therefore you cannot understand my black experience. Yeah. Now I can understand your experience, you know, I can understand your experience.

It's an actually it's racist if you try to act like you can understand my okay Happens is white people don't have that. Exactly. Yeah, white white modalists are modalist because you know. They intellectualize their way to it.

Black modalists are modalistic. Well, it not it does violence of the gospel here. We're talking about the very nature of God and again.

It's not something that each ethnic group gets to define though. I I have to disagree with you about one thing. You said you can understand my experience, but I can guarantee you. You've never worn a kilt.

But you didn't get it in Scotland so.

I think you hit the nail right on the head because people get away with it again. Remember those three culture and then the issues with we you know with with getting out my term if I.

Honestly am colorblind in the church. If if I'm if if that's where I am I am convinced I'm convicted by the Word of God. I'm convicted by Galatians 328. That's the way it needs to be. We're all one the body of Christ.

The same Holy Spirit indwells you that indwells me we read the same scriptures. If if that's where I really am then What how can I talk to someone because you've used this term a couple times in it? Again is so far outside of my experience but you talk about those who who aren't really for assimilation or something is almost like let's stay in our own group and I go but our group is the church.

It's not it's not based upon the color. It's not based upon the melanin counts. I mean really the the The guy who died for you and I both wasn't the color of either one of us. He was he was a Palestinian Jew.

So what am I supposed to say? to someone who looks at me and they they say you shouldn't say anything about TD Jake's because You're Scottish and you don't you don't therefore you are Showing yourself Racist if you engage in this, isn't that is that not sin in the sense of a an improper division of the body?

Nations to and it is absolutely no merit. And reach people within those different. I know you will enough to know to say that because that's right.

But I mean, I'm sure you'd agree with me III also don't think I mean a church in a prime in an area that has a primary one particular primary Ethnic makeup is going to lean toward that for obvious reasons.

But but my concern is specifically creating a church based upon ethnicity. I Mean that see it, you know. If the Lord if the Lord brings in people from all over the place and gives you just complete mixed soup, that's great.

But you know I understand that a church in a certain area is going to reflect the Ethnicity of the people that are close enough to get to it that that makes perfect sense. But what I'm hearing is people saying no, we we don't mind creating an ethnic group whereby we sort of see ourselves, it's it reminds me of Galatians to and it reminds me of you know Peter going over and sitting with the Jews at the table and well You know, this is the way we do do things and and Paul said no way.

You're not walking straight in accordance the truth of the gospel. So what do what do I do you put yourself in in in my in my shoes. You've already said look you've got to do what you're doing. You've got to address the issue, but Do I have to I need to be aware of how my words are going to be heard?

I there are only so many filters I can install though. And so isn't isn't there a need to call anyone who is a fellow conservative Christian who happens to be black. Isn't there a need to be able to say to someone like that?

You know what? We are all one in the body of Christ. This has nothing to do with my experience or your experience this has to do with our common Confession of faith in who Jesus is what the Doctrine of the Trinity is how all this relates to the gospel.

Can we set all of that stuff aside? Do I have to make that special effort each time or or do I only do that once I Start getting a pushback and realize that I'm encountering it. Do I just assume the best or do I assume the worst?

Which one which do I do? We're talking about somebody that the Muslims think is a cult. I mean.

Than that. And these guys still the Baptist and nobody called. Mm-hmm. And the filters the filters. We've got about a minute left on the program today.

What can what can we do? I mean is as far as I can tell Vast majority of pulpits are wide open to you. I mean you're you're you're much beloved and and it doesn't have anything to do with your ethnicity or anything like that.

And so clearly people have seen you hand in hand with well-known Especially reformed leaders and things like that. It is it continued cooperation that makes the inroads. How can we chip away at this?

This ethnic Gnosticism.

In 35 seconds. Yeah I am. I am not ashamed of the gospel. Those who believe the Jew with me because of the gospel and that has to be more.

So what you're doing is inviting me to come down and you and I are going to do a joint debate against somebody else. Is that what I just understood you say? I think that'd be great. I think I think a two-on-two debate.

We just need to find somebody on the other side would be an awesome way of maybe taking our own swing at the edifice of Ethnic Gnosticism Dr. Votie Balcombe. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope it has been edifying to the people of God and I hope it will help to close that gap and to Promote the gospel around the world.

I really appreciate you spend time with us today. Okay, man, it's been a joy man. Thank you. I look forward to getting together with you. Thanks a lot everybody for listening to the dividing line today.

We'll be back on Tuesday. We'll see you then. God bless.

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