Dr. Voddie Baucham on “Ethnic Gnosticism”

Live casting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James white.

The Trinity, Modalism, and 1 Timothy 3:16

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. It all started out, of course. Well with the following exchange, let's let's listen once again to. Well what we've been talking about now for a couple days and people continue talking about on the internet, let's listen.

We also agree in the nature of God there's mystery and it's like a dimmer switch. How much certainty how much mystery. Thank you, but within that mr. Jakes for you, you know the issue between trinitarianism and modalism at its essence is one God manifesting himself Successively in three ways or one God three persons.

Simultaneously existing eternally. So your best understanding now and I understand there is some mystery for sure. Would you say it's one God? Manifesting himself in three ways or one God in three persons.

And I believe that that's either one of us totally get it for me. But I think the latter one is where I stand today. What about three persons about the one God three persons and one God three persons and here is why I am there.

I'm not crazy about the word person that this is. Most people who call me know that that is really my doctoral statement. It's not different from your except for them. It's the manifest instead of person which you described as modalist and I described as Pauline.

Let me show you what I'm saying. When I read 1st Timothy 316 I didn't create this modalistic and without controversy because I think we have we have bickered about something. That is what Paul describes a mystery.

I don't think we should do that and without controversy. Great is the mystery of Godliness. For God was manifest in the flesh. Now Paul is not a modalist. But he does not think that it is a robbery to the divinity of God to think God was Manifest in the flesh and I think it's maybe the semantics could be different for that way.

But Paul says this before this fight was started. He was manifest in the flesh. Justified in the spirit seeing the angels who preached up to the Gentiles believed all over the world and were sealed up into glory.

Now when we start talking about that sort of thing I think that it was important that we realize that there are distinctions between the father and the working of the son. Father didn't leave. Father didn't die.

He was in a hole for 10 minutes. Only in the person of Jesus Christ. Coming back for us from the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has been with us. But only indwells us through the person of the Holy Spirit.

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of that is objectionable to any of the three of us so far. I don't know. So that is consistent with my belief system.

Yeah.

I'm with you. I have been with you. I've been preaching that all the time. There are many people within and outside of quote-unquote denominations that are labeled ones that would describe them the same way there are some that would not.

But when we get to know people by their labels Then there comes all the baggage of how we define that label. And we mismanage it. It's almost like stereotypical ideologies we have about races. We have a lot of ideas about Denominations and movements.

The reason I applied what you said earlier about people who have dual affiliations. We are taught in our society that if we disagree with any movement We leave. We sever. We sever everything. You know, oh you said somebody disagreed with you, we fall out with them and walk away.

I still have fellowship, association, relationships, and positions.

Ethnic Gnosticism and the Charge of Racism in Theological Debate

Okay, so there you have. There you have, well, what took place. You have the elephant room too. You have the discussion concerning the Trinity and manifestations and all those things like that. And look, everyone listened.

If you're listening right now, you listened to what I said back on Friday. And what did I do? I played stuff from what T .D. Jakes had said in the past. And we looked at oneness sources and we did all that stuff.

And I thought what I was doing was discussing the important issue of the doctrine of the Trinity. And over the weekend, I began to realize that, to be honest with you, a lot of people didn't hear me talking about the Trinity.

And all of a sudden I started realizing, you know what? There are a lot of folks that aren't hearing what I said about the doctrine of the Trinity because, to be honest with you, they don't really think that I have the right to be addressing this subject because of who T .D. Jakes is.

And I was very, very concerned as I began to realize that the issue of race was taking a central place in this conversation. And I don't understand it. And so I reached out to someone who might be able to help us.

And he's joining me on the program today. I am talking to Dr. Vody Balcom. Hello, sir. How are you?

Good to be with you.

It's good to be with you, too. Most folks in the audience know you better than they know me. But one thing that they need to know is that you're the pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, Texas.

Now, Texas is a nation unto itself. So spring would be approximately where in that big place?

Texas. Right, right.

Okay. You're a Houston suburb. Okay. All right. Well, I was in Houston not very long ago, but knowing how much you travel and I travel, we probably weren't there at the same time anyways. But that means it's real nice and dry there during the summer, right?

During the summer.

That's true. You had the humidity. You just didn't get the rain that was supposed to come along with it. How long have you been pastoring down there? And you've also served as an adjunct professor at the College of Biblical Studies in Houston, Union University in Jackson, lectured at Southern Seminary, and you know a little something about this situation because rumor is, and we haven't had the opportunity of actually meeting yet, unfortunately, but rumor is I've heard that you're actually a black man.

Am I right about that? I've also heard that you are a little bit larger than I am. Is that true? In fact, Todd Friel said, he mentioned you, I was listening to a Wretched Radio broadcast from a couple days ago, and he said you could break him in half like a twig.

That's true. A stiff breeze could do that, I suppose. I think what he meant was that you're even bigger than he is.

I'm not a small guy.

So when you do apologetics, then you have an advantage that I no longer have. I was once a pretty big guy back in about six, seven years ago, but I've gotten back on the bike, and so now I'm not that at all.

But you do apologetics, I do apologetics, I think we're about the only two Reformed Baptist apologists on the planet, so we pretty much fill out the entire club, and we still haven't met. So I was thinking Spring, Texas sounds like a great place to have a debate someday with a Muslim.

What do you think? Yeah, I was going to say, do you think you could find a church for me there?

Yeah, well actually, you know, I love church.

Really?

So we can write a debate there.

Oh yeah, that could be very, very interesting. Yeah, especially since the Muslims are going for Friday, they're going for Saturday, we go for Sunday. At least we know which days we can X out of the calendar there.

Well anyways, I got in touch with you because I am honestly confused. First of all, obviously you know far more about this situation than you probably wanted to know. I read your blog article where you related the situation, because you actually, how many people grand total had been invited to the Elephant Room too?

I mean, we know of at least two. Are you and Mark Dever the only two that declined? Do we know of any others? What do you know about that?

Four of us.

Okay.

And so you declined an invitation to be there, and yet there was something, was it the next day or two days after Elephant Room that you were supposed to speak at?

And so in fact, you had been booked even before the Elephant Room stuff even became an issue.

Oh yeah.

Okay, all right. And that was just a, I don't know, I hate to use the term standard men's conference, but I guess that's a term I'll use. It wasn't necessarily related to Elephant Room or anything like that.

Okay, all right.

Not at all.

Now we know that you flew from Texas, I would assume Houston, up to Chicago, and it was decided in conversations that it would be best that you did not speak because, well, because of why? Because of what you had said on your blog?

Well, it's also a way to find out.

So you got there. I guess you had an assistant with you. You actually, when you went to the church, were you assuming you were going to be speaking?

Yes.

Oh yeah.

Okay, so you had everything prepared, and it was only once you got to the church the discussion took place, and you discovered that there was already somebody there to take your place, I guess, at that point.

Yeah.

Right, right, all right. Okay, so you had that level. So you spoke with James McDonald there, and you had that level of involvement, but my contacting you really didn't have to do with that too much. Let's get to the important issue here and what really is troubling me, and that is, as soon as this happened, Todd Friel was on my cell phone.

And, I mean, from Todd's perspective, this was the reversal of the Council of Nicaea, okay? I mean, you know the Friel Meister. I love the guy, and he operates, if we're all 12-volt batteries, he's a 24-volt battery.

It's just the way it is. On an iPod, he's on the 2X speed all the time. And I had not been looking forward to this. I knew it was coming. I had sort of kept some of an eye on it, because I've spoken about Jake's and stuff like that in the past.

But I'm trying to write a book on Islam, and I've got too many other things going on, and so I didn't spend much time on it. And so when it took place, and I listened to the conversation, honestly, Vody, I can tell you with complete integrity, the only thing I was listening for was accuracy in handling the issue of the Doctrine of the Trinity and a recognition and understanding of modalistic language on the people asking T .D. Jake's questions.

That was honestly all I was concerned about. And I didn't even watch the videos, because I pulled the audio from what was posted on YouTube, and I listened to that. I wasn't even watching it. I didn't know who was talking to him.

I mean, I recognized Mark Driscoll's voice, but I didn't know if there was two people, ten people. I didn't know, and I didn't care. That's not relevant to me. What was relevant was the issues of accurately handling the Doctrine of the Trinity.

I'm sitting here trying to reach out to Muslims, and it's somewhat of a distraction to have this going on in the rearview mirror, where you're discovering that a lot of people who you thought were on your side actually don't even know what it is you're talking about when you're defending things like the hypostatic union or the eternal existence of the sun as the sun and all the rest of this stuff.

And so I do my thing on Friday. You even referenced the video when I posted it on a blog article that you wrote, where I just went through it, did my thing. And over the weekend, I start realizing that there are people that have started to talk about middle-aged, white, Reformed guys.

Now, I think I'm still middle-aged. Is 49 still middle-aged? Does that qualify?

Yeah, we'll let you pass.

You'll let you pass?

Okay.

Now, who's the elder here, by the way? Because I don't know.

Oh, okay.

Well, you're still young then.

Okay.

Well, you're definitely middle-aged. I think 55 is about the end of middle-age, personally.

Okay, I'll take that.

You'll take that? And as we get close to 55, we'll push up to 60. That's just how it works. But anyway, I honestly, it had never crossed my mind. That's what you're going to have to help me with, because I don't understand the rules.

I really don't get it. I thought that Galatians 3 .28 was pretty clear. When it says there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male or female, you're all one in Christ Jesus.

I thought it was pretty straightforward what that was saying, is that this whole issue of race. I mean, if we looked at the Council of Nicaea, there weren't any middle-aged white Reformed guys there, because first, Reformed wouldn't have made any sense, and most everybody there would have been a lot darker than me, that's for sure.

And they really wouldn't have looked much like either one of us, even though Athanasius, they called him the little black dwarf. I mean, these issues are not defined by race, but they're being heard in that way.

Help me to understand, how do I get past this, or what is the real problem here? Should these types of divisions even exist within the Christian faith? Okay, let me tell you a story, and then as a background of asking you to tell me, from your perspective, what I need to do, or how I need to try to understand the perspective that was expressed by some of the black pastors in response to the T .D. Jake situation, and maybe tell me, the very idea of black theology, or white theology, or any epithet attached to theology gives me the creeps.

I mean, just badly, because there is no such thing as a black god, or a white god, or anything like that, and the reason it gives me the creeps, let me tell you a story, and then I'll get your response to that.

I was listening to Todd Freel, and he said the same thing. He said he was oblivious. He lives in an oblivious state to a lot of the layers that you were just talking about. And it's not because I live in the quote-unquote white church, because I don't.

I mean, my church has Hispanics, and blacks, and whites, and most of us are just mutts. We don't know what in the world we are. And we don't care. That's not why we're there. So it's not something we even think about.

It doesn't enter in. And for me especially, the first best friend you have in life really impacts you. And my first best friend, the person that I, in my little mind at that time, defined friendship was named Kevin.

And Kevin was brown. And Kevin was brown because Kevin's mommy was almost albino. I mean, she was, Mrs. Holden was her name. She was so white. Well, we lived in Minnesota, and I'm afraid that there's a lot of very, really white people in Minnesota because you can't get out in the sun very much, and if you do go out during the summer, you get eaten by mosquitoes.

So it may have just been you stay inside all the time. I don't know. But she was as white as could be. But Kevin's daddy, Kevin's daddy scared me, not because of what color he was, but he was huge. I mean, to a three or four-year-old, this man was huge.

He was a big cop, and he was as black as midnight. I mean, he was one of those guys who's so black that in the dark, unless he smiles, you're not going to see him. He was that kind. We're not talking brown.

We're talking absolutely black. He was the polar opposite of his wife. So my first best friend is brown, and his mommy and his daddy are different colors, and I think that's just wonderful. In fact, I still remember learning from my parents that, well, there's a lot of people who don't think that they should be married.

I'm like, but why? Because they were members of our church. So I'm like, I mean, I'm a kid. I don't know. So my first experience with friendship was with a boy who had a black father and a white mother, and I'm just like, yeah, but he's my friend.

And so from the very start, my brain has been wired in such a way that all this stuff about, yeah, but I'm this color and he's that color and we're this, it does not compute with me, and it just doesn't become a part of the process by which I even think about things.

And that's why when I listened to The Elephant Room, and that's why when I first read Brian Lawrence's blog article, it never crossed my mind to even ask the question, what color is this man? That's why I was so shocked when the issue of race came up.

I was like, why would somebody raise that? It is just that far removed from my experience, my thought process, because of my upbringing. That's just the way it was. And so with that, I'm not sure, Vodie, if I'm smart enough to develop a set of filters to avoid, to start running stuff through a filter to know how to address stuff.

Do I need to? How do I handle this? I honestly don't know.

Well, but again, we have to be, you know, separation theology is divided to make. I know, I am in what you are doing.

How has that happened as you see it?

Right.

Now, what I'm hearing from you right now, interestingly enough, is the issue. See, the first place that I saw race brought up was in the Lawrence blog when it talked about white middle-aged reformed guys.

And I'm hearing you saying you're seeing it in its fullest expression, in essence, the misuse of three black pastors as a mechanism of defense for what took place. And yet it's interesting, a lot of folks in listening to that have heard statements that sounded like some of those pastors, I think specifically Brian Lawrence, were basically saying, well, I think there are some black pastors out there that want to have a wider audience and so they're sort of ganging up on Bishop Jakes.

So it sounds like there's multiple different streams coming all together and creating a massive amount of confusion depending on how we're listening and how we understand what the motivations were behind the person speaking.

Yeah.

Bishop Jakes.

That's true.

Yeah, you're probably right. There's no two ways about it. Even though I would like to think that on the positive level people have been caused to think about modalism a little bit, it is discouraging to recognize that those who actually know modalism best have the quietest voices in this situation, and those, the loudest voices, in other words, the biggest platforms, did not show themselves to be overly insightful as to not only what modalism is and how modalists speak, but making direct application to the Christian life, the Gospel, the reasons, the importance of why modalism totally undercuts the sacrificial work of Christ and the worship of the Church and all the rest of these things.

There just doesn't seem to be almost anybody who has a really big platform that has brought that kind of thing to the fore. Now, you had mentioned specifically, though, a lot of people had mentioned to me, let's put it this way, a lot of people had mentioned to me that they interpreted some of the things that were said in the interview, especially the first part of the interview, as being directed at pretty well-known individuals.

That's not really the case, is it?

No, I don't hear.

Right, right, of course.

I don't know his... And you've been speaking about this for a long time.

Help our listeners to understand. Why would you say something like that? Because so many people look at him and they see success, they see he's been on the cover of Time magazine for crying out loud. Is Time still being published?

It might be.

I don't know.

Who really knows anymore? But, you know, here's the very picture of success and prominence and all the rest of this stuff, and yet here you're talking about a poisonous influence. Why would that be?

And yet that was not raised...

There really wasn't much of an explanation as to why. But still, even with that, looking at the interview that James McDonald did afterwards, none of these pastors would be pastoring churches that would be friendly toward that type of a perspective, would they?

No. Yeah. Again, I don't know these men.

Yeah, you can pay for that in many, many different ways. Help me to understand, if you can, and if it's just beyond where we want to go, just let me know. But help me understand, if you can, why we have seen some from the black community listen to what Phil Johnson is saying.

Okay, Phil Johnson is a white middle-aged reformed guy, and James White, and people like us. And they hear us, and yet they hear us in a racial sense, when it's not anywhere in anything that we said.

I mean, you couldn't find anything in what I said last Friday about Elephant Room 2 that could, by any stretch of the imagination, be connected to anything racial at all. It never once crossed my mind, and yet people are hearing it.

What do we do about it? What can I do about that, if there's anything at all?

I'm tired of this. I wrote my piece about this.

Right.

But one of the things, ethnic gnosticism, you're not black, and therefore you cannot understand my black experience.

Yeah.

Now, I can understand your experience. You know, I can understand your experience. But actually, it's racist if you try to act like you can understand myself.

Okay?

What happens is white people don't have that experience.

Exactly.

White modalists are modalists because, you know, they intellectualize their way to it. Black modalists are modalists. Well, now it does violence to the gospel here.

We're talking about the very nature of God, and again it's not something that each ethnic group gets to define, though. I have to disagree with you about one thing. You said you can understand my experience, but I can guarantee you you've never worn a kilt.

What?

You know what? You have?

I have.

Oh, man.

I knew it.

I had a feeling. I had a feeling.

Yeah.

But you didn't get it in Scotland, so.

I think you hit the nail right on the head because people get away with it. Again, remember those three cultures and then the issues with, you know, with getting out my term.

If I honestly am colorblind in the church, if that's where I am, I am convinced, I'm convicted by the word of God, I'm convicted by Galatians 328, that's the way it needs to be. We're all one, the body of Christ, the same Holy Spirit indwells you that indwells me.

We read the same scriptures. If that's where I really am, then how can I talk to someone? Because you've used this term a couple times, and it, again, is so far outside of my experience, but you talk about those who aren't really for assimilation or something like that.

It's almost like let's stay in our own group. And I go, but our group is the church. It's not based upon the melanin counts. I mean, really, the guy who died for you and I both wasn't the color of either one of us.

He was a Palestinian Jew. So what am I supposed to say to someone who looks at me and they say, you shouldn't say anything about T .D. Jakes because you're Scottish and therefore you are showing yourself racist if you engage in this.

Isn't that, is that not sin in the sense of an improper division of the body?

It is absolutely no merit to enrich people within those different cultures. I know you well enough to know to say that.

Right, but I mean, I'm sure you'd agree with me. I also don't think, I mean, a church in an area that has a primary, one particular primary ethnic makeup is going to lean toward that for obvious reasons.

But my concern is specifically creating a church based upon ethnicity. I mean, that's, you know, if the Lord brings in people from all over the place and gives you just complete mixed soup, that's great.

But, you know, I understand that a church in a certain area is going to reflect the ethnicity of the people that are close enough to get to it. That makes perfect sense. But what I'm hearing is people saying, no, we don't mind creating an ethnic group whereby we sort of see ourselves.

It reminds me of Galatians 2, and it reminds me of, you know, Peter going over and sitting with the Jews at the table. And, well, you know, this is the way we do things. And Paul said, no way, you're not walking straight in accordance with the truth of the gospel.

Absolutely. So what do I do?

Put yourself in my shoes. You've already said, look, you've got to do what you're doing. You've got to address the issue. But do I have to? I need to be aware of how my words are going to be heard. There are only so many filters I can install, though.

And so isn't there a need to call anyone who is a fellow conservative Christian who happens to be black? Isn't there a need to be able to say to someone like that, you know what, we are all one in the body of Christ.

This has nothing to do with my experience or your experience. This has to do with our common confession of faith in who Jesus is, what the doctrine of the Trinity is, how all this relates to the gospel.

Can we set all of that stuff aside? Do I have to make that special effort each time? Or do I only do that once I start getting a pushback and realize that I'm encountering it? Do I just assume the best?

Or do I assume the worst? Which do I do? We're talking about somebody that the Muslims think is a cult. I mean, you can't get more cultic than that.

Exactly.

And these guys still are Baptists, and nobody cults. The filters, the filters.

We've got about a minute left in the program today. What can we do? I mean, as far as I can tell, a vast majority of pulpits are wide open to you. I mean, you're much beloved, and it doesn't have anything to do with your ethnicity or anything like that.

And so, clearly, people have seen you hand-in-hand with well-known, especially Reformed leaders and things like that. Is it continued cooperation that makes the inroads? How can we chip away at this ethnic Gnosticism?

In 35 seconds.

Exactly. Exactly.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel. All those who believe, the Jews with me, because of the Gospel. And there has to be more.

So what you're doing is inviting me to come down, and you and I are going to do a joint debate against somebody else. Is that what I just understood you to say?

Let's do it, man.

I think that would be great. I think a two-on-two debate, we just need to find somebody on the other side, would be an awesome way of maybe taking our own swing at the edifice of ethnic Gnosticism. Dr. Votibalkum, thank you so much for joining us today.

I hope it has been edifying to the people of God, and I hope it will help to close that gap and to promote the Gospel around the world. I really appreciate you spending time with us today.

Amen. It's been a joy, man. Thank you.

I look forward to getting together with you. Thanks a lot, everybody, for listening to The Dividing Line today. We'll be back on Tuesday. We'll see you then. God bless.

The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the World Wide Web at aomin .org, that's A-O-M-I-N .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.

Join us again next Tuesday morning at 11 a .m. for The Dividing Line.