August 3, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “Tim Keller & the Pressure Against Christian Leaders in the Public Eye to Cave In to the Leftist Agenda”

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this third day of August 2017, and I'm so delighted to have back on the program someone who is surely one of my favorite guests, and if you take into account my old program that broadcasted out of New York, he is certainly one of my most frequently interviewed guests ever, and that is Phil Johnson, executive director of Grace to You, the radio, television and literary ministry of John MacArthur.

Today we're going to be speaking on a very controversial issue that may get me some hate mail, as did my last interview with Phil, but today we are going to be discussing Tim Keller and the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Phil Johnson.

Hey, thank you, Chris. Good to be with you.

And in studio with me is my co-host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

And it's wonderful to be on the program again.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArntzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and I do have a caveat in regard to your questions. My guest today, Phil Johnson, does not profess to be some kind of a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the life and teaching of Tim Keller.

We are going to be playing a clip of an interview, and we're going to keep the clip in context so it'll be long enough where no one can accuse us of taking the clip out of context. But we're going to be airing a clip of an interview that Tim Keller had with David Eisenbach on homosexuality.

And the responses that Tim Keller give to Mr. Eisenbach regarding this sin are quite remarkably sad and tragic, in my opinion. In fact, I think it should be sad and tragic in the mind of any biblically-minded Christian, anyone who would call themselves a believer in the inerrancy of scripture, and anyone who has actual love and compassion for the never-dying souls of those involved in homosexual activity should also be appalled by the answers given in this interview.

But so I would rather, if you send in questions to Phil Johnson today, that you not be asking a myriad of questions regarding Tim Keller because Phil may not know the answers to them, and basically stick the questions as much as you can to the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda.

John MacArthur and Grace to You

But before I even play that clip, Phil, I just want to introduce you to our listeners. I mean, it's a given that the vast majority of my listeners would be very familiar with you, and grace to you and John MacArthur, but something remarkable in a positive way has occurred recently, Phil, in that I am getting new listeners contacting me every single day.

So there's obviously a rapid growth or an explosion in our audience, and there may be people who are very new Christians who are not familiar with you. There may be people who are not Christians at all who are listening who are not familiar with you.

I have Muslims even who listen to my program, and I have Roman Catholics and those of other religions and no religions at all listening to the program who from time to time will send in an email with a question or a comment.

But if you could, let our listeners know about grace to you.

And what your duties are there. Yeah, grace to you is the media ministry of John MacArthur. He is, for the past nearly 40 years, pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, and perhaps the best-known Bible expositor living in the world today.

He's preached verse by verse through the entire New Testament and written a series of commentaries that covers the entire New Testament, and so he's one of the most highly I would wholeheartedly concur with that,.

So would everyone that I have any respect for. He is certainly one of my modern-day heroes, and in fact it's interesting how Dr. MacArthur, although he is a thoroughgoing dispensationalist, simultaneously being a thoroughgoing Calvinist, there are people across the board, even those that tend to be somewhat anti-dispensationalist, who love Dr. MacArthur.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's because he's so Bible-based and he's, you know, so thoroughly entrenched in the scriptures that it just pours out of him whenever he gets up to a pulpit or has a book published or what have you.

And I know that you happen to be the one, the key figure, that actually takes his.

Sermon notes and turns them into books. Well, as long as we're on the subject of John MacArthur, I might as well confess to you also that he totally ruined me years ago. In what way? Well, I was happy as a nice little independent fundamentalist Baptist pastor, and I listened to a lot of John MacArthur tapes and I heard him on the radio, and I changed a lot of my views because of.

Him, and I got into a lot of trouble. And Phil, you were about to say that you are one of the key figures involved, if not the figure involved in turning his sermon notes into books. Yeah,.

Right. My background is publishing, and so that's how I originally got connected with John. I was an editor at Moody Press, his preaching, and he liked my editing, and so we got together in 1983, and I moved to California and have been here ever since.

Tim Keller, Homosexuality, and the Gospel

Okay, I'm going to play a clip now. It is.

From the Veritas Forum, and the title is Exploring True Life. For more information on this forum, go to veritas .org, V as in victory, E-R-I-T-A-S dot org. And the person conducting the interview is David Eisenbach, and do you happen to know if this is the same David Eisenbach who is involved in the liberal party, the political party, the liberal party in New York City?

Yes, I believe it.

Is. And he's in the history department with Columbia University? I believe that's right, and this, if I'm not mistaken, this is a Veritas Forum that was held at Berkeley University in California around 2008, in March of 2008.

Okay, it's interesting that I'm just.

Seeing it now for the first time, because if I had heard about this in the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I certainly would have addressed it. I found out about it when just recently Robert Gagnon posted it, and with very critical and disapproving commentary on it.

As some of our listeners might know, Robert Gagnon is a scholar within the most liberal of the Presbyterian denominations, the PCUSA, but he himself has much more of a conservative and evangelical bent, and is very open to speak out against the sin of homosexuality.

He has not caved in on that issue as many in his denomination have. So we're going to be listening to this interview that David Eisenbach is having with Tim Keller, and Tim Keller is a highly respected Presbyterian author and pastor and conference speaker.

He is considered by many to be a conservative. The denomination that he is a member of is certainly considered to be a conservative Presbyterian denomination. It's the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, and he has people who are his allies and friends and supporters that are amongst very conservative individuals who I happen to highly respect, like D .A. Carson.

But Tim Keller certainly has a bent to him that is troubling to many of us, very troubling, and that's even putting it very mildly, in regard to some liberal aspects that are existing within Christendom.

And I use the term Christendom for a reason, because I don't think that you can embrace homosexuality as an alternative activity or lifestyle than those commanded in the scriptures and be a biblical Christian.

I think that would put you outside of the realm of the body of Christ. But we're going to hear this interview that I am mentioning, and the reason why it's startling is not because it is an openly liberal theologian answering the questions.

It's not because it's somebody who is a liberal pundit in the mainstream media, but this is a person who is a beloved figure within the realm of conservative and reformed Christian circles, which makes his answers all the more utterly remarkable and frightening, in my opinion.

But here is at least a reasonable portion of that interview between David Eisenbach and Tim Keller. I wrote a book about the gay rights movement.

Because I was appalled by the oppression and the discrimination against homosexuals in my America. And this questioner asks, what do so many of the churches have against homosexuals, and what about your church's approach to homosexuality?

Is it a sin? Are they going to hell?

Let's talk about my church first, which will be a little easier than trying to answer for all the other churches of the world, but I'll try. I'm representing all the churches of the world, all right, you know?

But Christianity, I mean, let's start with mine. You go to the Bible quite often, and there are many evangelicals who will say it is listed as a sin in the Bible, and these people are.

Going to hell. Right. Now, first, let's talk about my church again. Let's go back here. What we would say is, I think it's unavoidable, I think most Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox Christians over the years have said, you read the Bible, and the Bible has reservations.

The Bible says homosexuality is not God's original design for sexuality. Okay, there you have it. The Bible also says love your neighbor. The Bible also, in fact, the Good Samaritan parable, which is how Jesus tells us to love our neighbor, you put a Jew and a Samaritan there.

So what Jesus is trying to say is, everybody is your neighbor. Gay people are your neighbors. People who are of other faiths are your neighbors. People of other races are your neighbors. And it's the job of a Christian to do what Jesus did on the cross, which was to give himself for people who were opposing him, and people who didn't believe in him even.

And so a Christian is supposed to say, I serve the needs and interests of all of my neighbors in the city, whether they're gay or straight, whether they're Hindu or Muslim. I mean, Hindus, for example, don't believe in the Trinity.

It's a different view than what the Bible says. Gay people have a different view of sexuality than generally what you see in the New Testament. I'm supposed to love my neighbors. So what I don't see is, at this point, I see some churches that are basically ignoring the places in the Bible that talk about homosexuality in order to love their gay neighbor.

And I see other Christian churches taking very seriously what the Bible says about homosexuality, but in a very self-righteous way. So they actually do single out gay people. I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their Hindu neighbors, and will love their Muslim neighbors, and not their gay neighbors.

And I really don't think there is any excuse for that. Therefore, I have to take some responsibility of being a member of the Christian church for the oppression of homosexuality.

Are committing homosexual acts sin against God?

What do you mean by sin? The answer is yes.

Yes.

Now the reason, see, here's the problem with that. You don't go to hell for being homosexual.

But committing homosexual acts will get you to go to hell?

No. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait.

Right. No, because, you know, some people say, no, it's not the homosexuality or being gay. It's being, doing gay stuff. That's the problem.

No. No. First of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven. I happen to know this. So how in the world can homosexuality send you to hell? And actually, the Bible, listen, this is true. Jesus talks about greed ten times more than he talks about adultery, for example.

Now, one of the problems Christians have here is partly, let's be nice to Christians. You know when you're committing adultery. I mean, you don't say, oh, you're not my wife. I mean, you know you're committing, but almost nobody knows when they're greedy.

Nobody thinks they're greedy, you know, because everybody is comparing yourself to other people. And so it's a frog in the kettle kind of thing. However, the fact of the matter is, the Bible is much harder on greed materialism, and it's a horrible sin, terrible sin.

Well, will greed send you to hell? No. What sends you to hell is self-righteousness, thinking that you can be your own savior and Lord. What sends you to heaven is getting a connection with Christ because you realize you're a sinner and you need intervention from outside.

That's why it's very misleading actually to say, even to say homosexuality is a sin, because most people, yes, of course homosexuality is a sin, because greed is a sin, because all kinds of things are sins.

But what most Christians mean when they say that, and certainly what non-Christians think they hear when they hear that is, if you're gay, you're going to hell for being gay. It's just not true. Absolutely not true.

So then how is homosexuality a sin? Well, greed's a sin. In other words, it doesn't help human flourishing. Basically, Christianity has an account of what we think human beings were built to do and what will therefore help human flourishing.

So we would say if you spend all your money on yourself, that's bad, not only for your own soul, but for everybody else's. We would say homosexuality is not the original design for sexuality, therefore it's not good for human flourishing.

We want people to do things that are good for human flourishing, but that's not what sends you to heaven or hell. Now there, maybe we ought to talk about that. What sends you to heaven or hell really has to do with your faith in the gospel, which is that you can't be your own savior through your performance in your good works.

Now here, I'm coming at this like a Protestant now. Everybody's got to be a particular kind of Christian, and there's difference of opinion within Christianity about this. But no, being gay doesn't send you to hell, and sin doesn't send you to hell like that.

The sin underneath the sin is, I am my own savior and my Lord. And that's the reason why Phariseeism, moralism, Bible-believing people who are proud and think God's going to take them to heaven because they're good, that's sending them to hell.

I mean, I know this is a lot to take in at once. It's a lot. Yeah, I mean, inside our church, therefore, there's just not going to be this disdain of homosexuals. It just can't be, not when I'm teaching the gospel like that.

Well, basically, Phil, I'd like you to begin by just giving your own overall commentary on what you heard, and then I will also begin to ask you questions about specific things that were said. So.

If you could, just give us your overall reaction to this. Yeah, let me start with where I think he's right. It is true that we're to love our neighbor, and Scripture does not, in its condemnation of homosexuality, Scripture does not give us any mandate to be rude to our homosexual neighbors or to treat them with disrespect or any of those things, which, frankly, are all too common among evangelicals.

We don't necessarily do that when we're dealing with homosexuals face-to-face, but if you watch social media comments and stuff like that, that evangelicals... I think we could be more cautious in not sort of broadcasting a sense that we see homosexuals as a fodder for ridicule and condemnation and that alone.

They are people, and they are people who need to hear the gospel and, you know, for whom the gospel is for homosexuals. Like, you know, the Westboro Baptist people and just write homosexuals off as if there's no hope for their eternity and no salvation for their sin.

I think he's right about that, and I think he's right to want to put up, you know, safeguards and say, look, evangelicals should not treat their homosexual neighbors. He's also right to say that homosexuality in and of itself isn't like the pinnacle of sin, it's... he compares it to greed, and he says some things that I'm going to critique in a minute, for example, where he says the Bible's much harder on greed than homosexuality.

I don't think that's true. And I also don't... what I think is a common misconception among Christians, that all sins are equal. So if you're guilty of greed, you're... you are, you know, just as... you're in bondage to a sin that's just as serious as homosexuality.

I don't think that's true. Homosexuality is one of those sins that Scripture does put in a class of abominable sin, and you see that in Romans 1, even in the New Testament, where Paul is talking about the decline of humanity into the depths of sin, and God gave them over to the lusts of their heart and all, and it specifically mentions homosexuality as...

I think it would be wrong to say that all sins are created equal, but on the other hand, it's also true... sins that are cultured and even tolerated among evangelicals that are equally abominable. Pornography and all... by many of the same people, he's right that we as believers need to be cautious and, you know, not be trying to take the speck out of our neighbor's eye when we've got a plank sticking out of our own eye.

That's a good caution and all that. But overall, I think this is a muddled answer to what was a very straightforward question. Is homosexuality sinful? Scripture gives an unambiguous answer to that question.

You know, beginning all the way back in Leviticus, you shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. Leviticus 18, 22, if a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.

Leviticus 20, 13, and you have that theme throughout Scripture. Every time the question to answer is, is homosexuality sinful? The right answer is, the Bible says it is. I mean, even if Tim Keller didn't want to say, you know, this is my conviction, he could have easily simply said, Scripture is very clear in calling it a sin.

That's what the Bible teaches. But he says things like, the Bible has reservations. The Bible says homosexuality is not God's original design for sexuality. That's a very weak and ambiguous way to deal with it.

If it's not God's original design for sexuality, is he suggesting, okay, it's a plan B? There are all sorts of loopholes like that for people who want to sort of get in step with what's politically correct, and there are lots of evangelicals, unfortunately, who take that attitude.

They're looking for the easiest way to sort of coast through their Christian life, not looking to Scripture for the standards, but listening to things and finding loopholes, and it just lacks the clarity that it ought to have.

Jesus did not use nuance or ambiguity to shade the hard truths he proclaimed. If you listen to Tim Keller very long, and this is not the only example of this, it's really throughout some of the YouTube videos you'll see us, but he doesn't want to declare any truth or defend any doctrine, have already branded unsophisticated.

I think he's too concerned about what people are going to think about his convictions, and that comes through when he answers a straightforward question like, is homosexuality sinful? The other question he was asked was, are homosexuals going to hell?

And his answer there is just patently wrong. He says, you don't go to hell for being a homosexual. In 6 .9, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.

Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality will inherit the kingdom of God. Now, in fairness, in that same context, it also says, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, and so it includes greed, you can go to hell for being greedy, but if I heard right, he even denied that along the way, that greed is a sin, but you don't go to hell for it.

The fact is, Scripture teaches that sin does send people to hell. Sin is precisely what puts people under the condemnation of God. So I don't understand his answer there, but it's a total non-sequitur.

He says, you don't go to hell for being a homosexual, and then he says, heterosexuality doesn't get you into heaven. He gets a nice little laugh about that. And it's a clever statement, but it is still a non-sequitur, because he turns around instantly and says, so then, how in the world could homosexuality send you to hell?

If heterosexuality doesn't get you into heaven, how could homosexuality send you to hell? Well, the answer to that is clear, and it goes back to the first question. Homosexuality is a sin. It's an abomination.

That's how it sends you to hell. Heterosexuality, as he says, won't get you into heaven. There's no salvific value to it, but it isn't ever labeled a sin in Scripture. Adultery is. So even heterosexual sexuality doesn't send you to hell because it's not a sin.

And he leaves all that in a very murky fog of ambiguity and just unclear... You know, we need to learn how to speak the truth without mincing words, but without being personally insulting, and it's possible to do that.

You will be accused of being mean-spirited if you speak the truth these days unambiguously, but it's still possible to speak the unvarnished truth with respect, without any sort of insult, and although people will take offense, and Scripture acknowledges that, that the Gospel itself is a stumbling block, but we still need to learn how to get back to speaking the truth without tiptoeing around the hard parts.

And Tim Keller's sort of the living mascot for the opposite view. I think he thinks, and based on other things I've heard him say, I think he thinks that we have a duty as Christians, and in fact our first duty as Christians, is to minimize any possible offense in the teaching of Scripture.

That sounds like Robert Shuler to me.

Yeah, I wouldn't put him in the same category, because I don't think Robert Shuler really... Paul, and if you take Tim Keller at his word, and listen when he does preach the Gospel, don't think, I don't think, yeah, I don't think he's liberal in the same sense that Shuler...

Now he thinks it's an evangelistic strategy that gets around the offense of the cross... By the fact that the Christian message itself, the idea that Christ died in the place of sinners, and as an offering, a sin offering offered to God, and that he did so to fulfill the will of his own father, that's a huge offense in the world today, and I think Kel's mindset seems to be that we need to tip as much as possible.

And just to let you know, years ago, I don't.

Know if you ever heard, it took place in the 90s, that interview that Michael Horton had with Robert Shuler, but when Robert Shuler stormed out of the studio, and you actually heard the door slam, and then he came back in, but Robert Shuler, if you recall, during that interview, now I'm not, I don't know if he was being completely honest or honest at all, but he said that he believed in the three forms of unity of the Dutch Reformed tradition, the...

Yeah, he did. I heard that. My interpretation of that was, what he meant was those were the formal doctrinal statements of his church. I don't think he could credibly make the claim that he could sign off on everything in those doctrinally reinterpreting the language.

Oh yeah, I agree with you, but he did say that he affirmed those things, and he said that he liked to word things differently, like he didn't like total depravity, he preferred total inability.

And things like that. Yeah, but here's why I would classify Tim Keller slightly differently from the way I'd classify Robert Shuler. And by the way, I do think Keller influences people in a way that's going to put a lot of young men who follow his lead on the same path as Robert Shuler, so I don't think the connection you're making there is totally invalid.

But nevertheless, I'd classify them differently, because you could listen to Robert Shuler forever, and you would never hear him preach the Gospel. Right. He had a skewed idea of the Gospel. But you listen to Tim Keller long enough, you'll hear Gospel truth come out, and I don't really have any significant doubts that he believes the Gospel.

I just think he has a very low view of the authority and efficacy of Scripture. I don't think he has the confidence that if I proclaim the Word of God without apologizing for it, it is efficacious for the saving of even the most hostile will do that.

Yeah, and some people might say, oh, you're just misunderstanding Dr. Keller. Well, should any Christian, especially a seasoned preacher, a seasoned Christian author and communicator, should a Christian ever be misunderstood when it comes to a question like this, which is a very simple and basic question?

Well, not only that, it's a very important question today, because even in the secular world, this is where the center of the debate is. And if we can't make the truth clear on a question like this, is homosexuality sinful?

It's such a straightforward answer, even if it makes the person uncomfortable who asked the question. Yes, and that was a very artful dance that Tim.

Keller did throughout that entire interview. He was just dancing around that question, and even the interviewer knew that. You could tell, but he kept prodding him for an answer to the very simple question.

But we're going to be going to a break right now. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Whether you agree with what's being said, whether you disagree, whether you admire Tim Keller greatly or not, whether perhaps you don't even know who he is, whether or not you are involved in homosexual behavior, or whether you denounce it, or whether you don't have an opinion on it, we would welcome your call, or your email, I should say.

Still thinking back to the old days in New York when I took phone calls. We will welcome your email at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And obviously, I could fully understand that a subject like this would lend itself to people asking personal and private questions.

So you may remain anonymous if that is the case. But if it's not the case, please include at least your first name, city, and state, and country of residence. And please keep the questions primarily to the real subtitle of the topic today, the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda, because my guest today, Phil Johnson, does not pretend to be an expert on the life and teaching of Tim Keller.

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Because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

We are addressing today Tim Keller and the pressure against Christian leaders in the public eye to cave into the leftist agenda. And we're also going to be discussing for a little bit the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, where Phil is also going to be speaking again in 2018, in early 2018, the 18th through the 20th of January, to be precise.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, please remember to give us your first name, city and state and country of residence, unless the question compels you to remain anonymous.

And before I take any listener questions, because we already have a number of them, I wanted to go through some of the things with you. First of all, you did rightly say that it is dangerously ambiguous to be saying things like homosexuality is not a part of the original design that God had in mind for sexuality, because there are even liberal and pro-homosexual and homosexual or professing homosexual Christians.

I understand that that's an oxymoron, but there are people who identify themselves as both Christians and homosexuals who will freely admit that heterosexual activity was the original design to populate the earth.

There seems to be no problem with them admitting that, because they realize they wouldn't exist themselves if it were not for heterosexual activity, and that being a part of the design of God. But you even have you even have people who are professing homosexual Christians and activists in that area who will say that the reason why the Apostle Paul came down so hard on homosexuality is because there was no such thing, they will say, as committed, loving, monogamous homosexual relationships back in the apostolic era.

So they will say that of course, you know, language like the original design is completely appropriate, but that doesn't mean that God does not open up his children to a new way of thinking and life and activity in a modern age.

If you could comment on what I just.

Said. Well, there's several problems with that. It's purely speculative in the first place, there's nothing in the scripture that would suggest that, okay, that's an exception to the rule against, you know, the rule in Leviticus, which says, you know, it's an abomination for a man to lie with a man.

It doesn't talk about multiple relationships or anything other than the homosexual act itself, and so that would of necessity apply even to a monogamous relationship. It's the corruption of the body's intent that makes it a sinful act.

And that's important, too. I thought one of the things that Keller said, and he says frequently, that sort of sends shivers down my spine, is when he defines what is sin, what makes a thing sin, again, he departs from what scripture says, and he says it's sinful because it doesn't help human flourishing.

That really seems to be his overriding idea of what sin is. A thing is a sin because it doesn't promote human flourishing. Scripture says sin is the transgression of God's law, and that sin is sin because it is a rebellion against God's...and what makes sin so exceedingly sinful is the fact that the one we are sinning against is not humanity, creator of the universe, almighty God we sin against, and that's why the guilt of sin is an infinite weight that it cannot be atoned for by us, because we sin against an infinite creator, an infinite lawgiver, and therefore the greater weight of guilt that it can't be wiped out by any sort of good deed or self...and that's essential to the gospel, by the way, and, you know, not to single out homosexuals, scripture condemns us all.

Every human being is born in a fallen condition. We all sin, and we sin in different ways, we're in bondage to different kinds of sin, but every sin is an infinite weight of guilt, and that's why every person needs a savior, and that's part of the message of the gospel.