March 30, 2016 Show with Kerri Kupec on “Christian Universities Fight Against Obama’s Mandate to Insure Abortions” PLUS “A Salafi Muslim’s Conversion to Christianity”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 30th day of March 2016.

There are four Christian universities in Oklahoma that have filed lawsuits against the

Obama administration's mandate that forces employees, regardless of their religious or moral convictions, to provide insurance coverage for abortion, including drugs, sterilization, and contraception, under the threat of heavy penalties.

And we are going to be talking about this disturbing mandate by the

Obama administration with our guest today for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron, Carrie Cupec, as she is the legal communications director of the

Alliance Defending Freedom, otherwise known as ADF, formerly known as the

Alliance Defense Fund. She is going to be our guest for the first hour. The second hour, we have

C .L. Edwards as our guest. He is a Salafi Muslim who converted to Christianity.

We're going to be hearing more about his conversion in addition to his take on current events involving

Islamic terrorism. But first of all, let me welcome our first guest for the very first time,

Carrie Cupec. Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Great. Thanks so much for having me on.

Oh, thank you for being on, especially with such short notice. And I have to ask you, how do you know my very dear friend of about 30 years,

Pastor Bill Shishko? Well, Pastor Shishko is the headmaster of the Christian school that I attended from first through eighth grade.

He is the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church at OPC in Franklin Square, New York, and they had a

Christian school. And I was one of those students, and so I was very good friends with his children. In fact, fun fact,

I went with his son to my 11th grade prom. So I know the family very well.

Oh, that's great. They're great people. Yes, Pastor Bill is one of the most gracious and ardent supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron.

And of me personally, he's been a dear friend of mine, as I said, for about 30 years. I met him very quickly after I became a

Christian myself. He was a guest speaker at the church where I was saved and where I was a member.

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which became Grace Reform Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island.

And Pastor Bill has been a guest on my program many times and has been, in fact, very recently.

And I didn't even know of the connection until Greg Scott of the

Alliance Defending Freedom told me that there was after he helped me get you as a guest today.

Yeah, in my family, we actually grew up very close. It just goes home.

So I was on the bus to school with his kids throughout the years. And we run into Pastor Bill and his wife at local supermarkets.

So a lot of connection there. Great. Well, he is a dear brother, and I'm looking forward to having him back on the show as soon as I can.

Well, first of all, obviously, for those of our listeners who are unaware of Alliance Defending Freedom, formerly known as the

Alliance Defense Fund and known as ADF more commonly,

I just let them know how I became familiar with Alliance Defending Freedom.

And I don't even know if you're aware of this situation, Carrie. But a number of years ago,

I believe it was in the early 2000s, I organized a live public moderated debate on homosexuality featuring

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. He is a mutual friend of Bill Shishko and mine.

And in fact, they are not only friends, and Bill has had James White fill in the pulpit there at the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, but they also debated each other on the subject of baptism in a friendly in -house collegiate debate.

But other than that, I arranged a debate at the

Central Presbyterian Church in Huntington on is homosexuality compatible with New Testament Christianity?

And Barry Lynn, who is the president of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, former

ACLU attorney and ordained United Church of Christ minister, he was the opponent to Dr.

White defending homosexuality as a valid expression of Christianity or compatible with Christianity.

And when he lost, when Barry Lynn lost that debate miserably bad, he was furious.

And when he found out that the videos were being made available of that debate, even though he knew that the debate was being videotaped and he had agreed to it beforehand, he tried to stop

Dr. White from making that video public and threatened to sue him.

And so I called the Alliance Defense Fund at the time as it was known, and they agreed to defend

Dr. White. And they wound up really not having to do anything because Barry Lynn never showed up at the hearing, nor did his attorney, nor anybody else from his organization.

So the judge just granted the rights to Dr. White to proceed with distributing the video.

But anyway, tell our listeners about the Alliance Defending Freedom, those of them who are unfamiliar with it.

Alliance Defending Freedom is a nonprofit legal organization that advocates for the rights of people to freely live out their faith.

And we focus on religious freedom and life and marriage. And we have offices throughout the

United States. And we also have a number of offices throughout the world, including Mexico City.

We have one in India. We have one in Brussels, Indiana, and Strasbourg. And so we do a lot of religious freedom work, like I said, both internationally and domestically.

And it's interesting. We're busy. I can tell you that. That's great. Well, let me also introduce you to my co -host sitting in studio with me, the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello. Hello. Can you hear me okay? I can. Because I can't hear myself as well as I usually do.

Well, you're not missing anything. Gee, thanks. I'm here for the comic relief.

Well, Kerry, I understand that the Southern Nazarene University versus Burwell case is something that we are going to discuss today because of these four

Christian universities in Oklahoma that have filed suit against the Obama administration's mandate that forces employees, regardless of their religious or moral convictions, to provide insurance coverage for abortion -inducing drugs, sterilization, and contraception under threat of heavy penalties.

If you could tell us something about these cases. Sure. These were cases that were just argued before the

Supreme Court last Wednesday on March 23rd. And these are pretty serious.

The bottom line is that we all agree that all Americans should be able to peacefully live and operate according to their religious beliefs without threat of government punishment.

But unfortunately, this very American and certainly constitutional principle is being called into serious question with these cases.

Now, you may have seen on the news stories about the Little Sisters of the Poor, these nuns who have taken vows of chastity and poverty, and they take care of the elderly in their community.

And you may have seen the media coverage of them before the court, because they are one of the parties before the court.

But it's not just them. It's also priests, and it's also, like you mentioned, evangelical Christian schools and colleges.

And we at Alliance for Funding represent five of those. And our schools and our clients object to life -ending drugs and devices.

We're talking about the morning -after pill, the week -after pill, and two IUDs that can cause the destruction of an embryo.

Now, obviously, Christianity and the teaching of the Church is very clear on the sacredness of life. For these schools to distribute these drugs and devices in their insurance plans, employee insurance plans, would be a complete violation of their conscience and their faith.

But the Obama administration has really doubled down and has gone after these Christian schools and these nuns and priests, demanding that they deliver these drugs and devices against their faith.

Well, what successes have those with biblical moral values had in fighting against such diabolical mandates that are being enforced upon them?

We certainly saw a good decision by the Supreme Court in a similar case, and that was the Hobby Lobby Conestoga Woods Specialties case, and that was a couple of years ago.

And there, the Supreme Court said, look, a religious family business can operate as a religious family business.

And you had the same issue of having drugs and devices that violated their faith and conscience in their health insurance plans that the government was demanding that they distribute.

But what's really, there are a couple of very interesting facts about this particular case that I just want to point out.

The nuns, the priests, the Christian colleges and universities. Two things, for starters, Pepsi, Exxon, Chevron, these are billion -dollar corporations, obviously.

They were grandfathered in with respect to the Obamacare mandate at the very beginning.

So this mandate, and it's entirely, does not apply to these big businesses. So big businesses get a free pass.

So all of those women who work for those organizations are not getting those drugs and devices that the government demands that they get, unless those corporations decide to make them available in the insurance plans.

So that says a lot right there as far as the government's interest.

But the second thing that we need to talk about is the fact that the women who work with Little Sisters of the Poor and these evangelical

Christian schools and colleges, they're pro -life. They know who they're going to work for when they get this job.

And so these women themselves don't want these drugs and devices. And yet the government has doubled down.

And the one other point I'd like to make is that if the government wanted to, they could create, in theory, a contraception -only plan available on the state health exchanges that they themselves set up.

That would be a way for the government to deliver these drugs and devices without hijacking the plans of religious institutions.

But they haven't done so, even though they still could now. So I think it's pretty obvious what one has to conclude about the government's attitude towards people of faith.

Yeah, let me ask you a question, just out of curiosity. Are you aware of any Islamic organizations and institutions where they are also being forced to provide insurance for abortion and other things like that, that they also would join us on opposing vehemently?

I'm not aware of any. But the same principle, it would apply to them. What the administration is currently attempting to do would apply to those organizations as well, obviously if they met certain parameters and numbers of employees and things like that.

Well, I was just curious because it seems that there has been on occasion preferences, preferential treatment given to Muslims and so forth.

It seems that Christians, and I would include in that category for the purposes of our discussion

Roman Catholics and those with conservative moral values, biblical moral values,

Judeo -Christian ethics and morals as they are commonly called. They seem to be open season by the leftist administration and other liberals for attack, mock, ridicule, fine.

I mean, we seem to be unique in that, but that's one of the reasons I asked the question about Muslim institutions.

And what's really sad about this, if you think about it, and I'm sure we all agree on this, these are the organizations that are doing some of the best in the world, right?

So we have the evangelical schools, they're serving the next generation. And those students who attend those schools are doing phenomenal things in their communities.

And what's also interesting about these Christian schools that we represent, a number of them were involved in the abolitionist movement.

In fact, Geneva College was actually part of the Underground Railroad themselves. So the president and the students assisted slaves to freedom.

And so these are schools that have always been active advocates for human flourishing and freedom. These schools were among the first in the country to employ women, to put women in positions in faculty and admit them into the full -time academic program.

Obviously, the little sisters of the poor are taking care of the elderly in their communities, the priests for life.

So these are organizations that are providing incredible social welfare programs, if you will, at no cost to the taxpayer.

Yet the Obama administration is going after them and really going after the very motivation that inspires and drives them to do all the good that they do in the world.

Now, what response do they have when this is being obviously said to them that this is in complete violation, obvious, blatant violation of one's freedom of religion?

How can they possibly get around that constitutional freedom?

So here's what the government's saying. The government is arguing. They're saying, oh, look, we're giving you an accommodation. We're letting you exercise your religion still.

There is no problem. But there is a problem. The accommodation is a total sham. It's a joke, because what the accommodation basically is, it's a permission slip.

The government is demanding that these institutions sign that allows the government to hijack these institutions' insurance plans and still deliver the drugs and the devices through that insurance plan.

So if they really were concerned or desired for these organizations to be able to freely and peacefully operate according to their mission and their beliefs, what they would do is what

I said earlier. They would create a plan on the government state health exchanges that women could access and get those drugs and devices directly from the government.

And this is something that's been argued in the briefs, and it was something that came out before the justices last week in oral arguments.

We do have an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania who asks, how does the

Alliance Defending Freedom go about choosing who they represent? Do they also represent individuals rather than just large organizations and institutions?

Oh, absolutely. We have a great legal intake team. We have 1 -800 -TELL -ADF, and we get calls all the time for people whose religious beliefs are being threatened by the government and local state bodies.

But, yeah, absolutely, we represent individuals. For instance, we are representing a number of creative professionals across the state right now.

You may have heard of some of them. Chief Cochran, the former fire chief of Atlanta, Georgia.

Fair enough. Stutzman, the grandmother floral designer out of Washington State. Jack Phillips, a baker and a cake designer in Colorado, all whose religious freedom is really being severely threatened right now is simply for holding a belief about biblical marriage that is held by the majority of people in this world, in the big states.

Now, is this a service, the legal services that you provide, always done pro bono for your clients?

Yeah, we represent all of our clients free of charge. That's good to know. So, what other similar cases are going on, and what is the progress you're making in defending the rights of those with biblical moral values and beliefs?

We've certainly seen a lot of success with respect to fighting the Obamacare abortion pill mandate.

The scorecard right now, in the cases that we have, with respect to the issue we were just talking about with these religious organizations that don't want to provide life -ending drugs and devices against their conscience, it's something like 72 to 19 were winning those in court, something like that.

And we actually had a very interesting victory. We represented the March for Life, which is the world's largest pro -life gathering.

You may have seen footage of that, the largest pro -life gathering in the world every January. A peaceful gathering of people, hundreds of thousands gather and march for the sanctity of life, and that's our client.

And the Obamacare mandate was being implemented against them. This is a pro -life organization from conception to natural death, and yet the

Obama administration was demanding that they too provide life -ending drugs and devices. And we were successful there.

In fact, our victory there at the Federal District Court in Washington, D .C., was actually the first victory of its kind in a nation that was won for nonreligious reasons, because March for Life is a nonreligious organization.

And the judge there said, no, that's okay. They can hold beliefs about the sanctity and sacredness of life based on moral philosophy and science.

So we won on those grounds. So we're seeing a lot of good success on these cases. And another area of litigation for us that I just mentioned a little bit ago are conscience clients, because it's evident, even with respect to this abortion poll mandate area, that conscience is really under attack in this country.

People are really losing their understanding of what it means to be an American and be able to freely and peacefully operate according to their beliefs and conscience.

So like I said, we represent a number of creative professionals, like the trail designer at Washington State, who she lovingly and carefully served people in her community for decades, owned a floral shop.

She had a man who identified as LGBT come in. His name was Rob. It was her friend for nine or ten years.

And she served him. She provided flowers to him. They were friends. And same -sex marriage became the law of the land in Washington State.

And Rob came in and asked Baronell if she would design custom floral arrangements for his same -sex wedding.

And Baronell prayed about it and talked to him and said, Rob, because I'm a Christian, because of my faith in Jesus Christ, I just can't use my creative talents to promote this ceremony because that would violate my faith.

It would violate what the gospel says about marriage. And that was okay. And Rob went a separate way, and everything seemed to be okay.

And the next thing you know, Baronell was being sued and pursued by the attorney general of Washington State. She was being sued by this man and his partner.

And she's being sued in her personal and professional capacity. So not only is her business being threatened, but her retirement, her home, her life savings, and anything that's in her husband's name as well.

Because Washington is a community property state. All because she declined one same -sex wedding custom floral arrangement order.

And she had referred him to three other floral designers in the area that would do a good job for him.

You know, it seems to me that people are purposely doing these things to get public attention and to have some kind of vindictive or vengeful spirit.

Because why on earth would you want someone who is opposed to an event you're having, why would you want them to create something like a floral arrangement or a cake or whatever?

Because you really want people doing that to have their heart in it. You want them to be excited and enthusiastic about it.

Not only do you not want somebody who's opposed to it, you don't even want somebody who has mixed feelings about it to be involved in that kind of a thing.

What kind of jeopardy are crisis pregnancy centers in in this country?

Because I remember a while back when Mayor Bloomberg was in office in New York City, there seemed to be some serious jeopardy at one point that the crisis pregnancy centers were in.

Those that were convincing women not to have abortions and so on. I believe that his agenda was to have them find or shut down because they were, in his rhetoric, practicing medicine without a license or something ridiculous.

But if you could let us know about the situation with crisis pregnancy centers.

Sure. We represent a number of crisis pregnancy centers in California on the West Coast. This is an ongoing case that we're in the midst of right now.

It's basically what you said. These centers were forced by the

California state governor, or the government's attempting to force them anyway, to put up signs at these pregnancy centers that essentially say, we're just a reforce center.

The language that they wanted them to put in these signs undermines the entire purpose of these centers even being in existence.

And requiring these centers to essentially refer women coming into these centers to a place where they can get an abortion.

Have you had success with these? Yes, we have had success with these. Like I said, right now we are in the midst of representing a number of these in California.

But the reality is, this is a speech issue too. It's not just about abortion, but the fact that the government can tell them that they must say this.

Especially when pregnancy centers offer real help, real hope to women. And they really shouldn't be punished by political allies of the abortion industry.

So forcing a pro -life center to promote abortion and recite essentially the government's message is a clear violation of their speech freedom under the

First Amendment as well. This is really obviously infuriating for those of us who not only have

Bible -believing Christian, Judeo -Christian moral and ethical values.

But do you have much support from the community, from even liberals for instance?

I have heard and have met liberals that they may radically oppose our beliefs against homosexuality and other things, but they are liberals in the classic sense of the term in that they don't want government intruding on the rights of people to express their religion and so forth.

There are even liberals who are politically libertarian who want the government to be small and to be out of the way of people just acting upon their own convictions and beliefs and so on.

Do you have any either verbal support or support in other ways from the liberal community?

Yes, absolutely. Especially what you just referred to, the libertarian community especially.

You had people who said they were libertarians and said, oh yeah, we're okay, it was same -sex marriage.

But this whole idea of forcing artists to promote messages that violate their beliefs and their convictions, that's too far and that's a problem.

And so you say you have a think tank like the Cato Institute, which is a known libertarian organization. You have a number of key people there who, again, were supportive of same -sex marriage, but have written

Friends of the Court briefs in support of our creative professional clients, and they've all said this is a blatant violation of their speech freedoms.

The government is forcing them to create a message, speak a message, which they completely disagree with and violates the essence of who they are.

And it's interesting, I was just judging a moot court competition in Washington, D .C. about a week or two ago, and the critical case before us that these law students were arguing was exactly about this.

It was about a photographer who did not, it's actually an atheist photographer, this is the fact pattern, who did not want to photograph religious wedding ceremonies.

He would do anything else, but he didn't want to do that. And he was being sued by the local so -called

Human Rights Commission for declining to use his creative talents to promote a religious wedding ceremony.

So it was interesting to be on the judging side of that. And one of my co -judges told me that in the last year alone, he had completely flipped on this issue.

He said, look, when this first came out, I thought, oh yeah, these people should have to do this, because now I've realized the implications of what this means.

A government that can tell you what you must say is terrifying. And regardless of where anyone stands on, say, the issue of marriage, once the door has been opened for the government to come in and force people to speak messages with which they disagree, the government can quite frankly come in and force any one of us to do, and speak a message of, you know, who knows what it could be.

And, you know, 20 years from now, when marriage isn't the hot button issue, it'll be something else. But at that point, the precedent will have been set, and the government will have the scary authority to punish people for not promoting their particular message and perspective.

We're going to have to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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That email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Carrie Pupek. Am I pronouncing your name correctly,

Carrie? Yes. Yeah, you are. I'm very glad to hear that. And she is

Legal Communications Director of Alliance Defending Freedom, otherwise known as ADL and formerly known as the

Alliance Defense Fund. And we are discussing today what services they provide to the

Christian community and those with biblical moral values and ethics that are under attack by not only leftist individuals and organizations but even our own government.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnsin at gmail .com.

ChrisArnsin at gmail .com. We do have a couple more listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But I wanted to have you go through a list of things that you think are important for pastors to know, to know what their rights are in regarding freedom of speech and the way that a church conducts itself in regard to discipline.

I know that our neighbor right to our north,

Canada, there are some pretty scary things going on there with ministers being heavily fined for speaking out against homosexuality.

From their pulpits in Europe, it's even worse, where I believe there have been men even arrested for such things, arrested and fined for speaking out against Islam and other things.

First of all, how realistic is it that that is going to be happening here in the

United States? And perhaps it's already happening and I'm unaware of it. And what are some lists of things that you want pastors to know in regard to our freedom of speech and freedom of religion?

Yeah, well for starters, certainly in the United States of America, a pastor, not the government, determines what is said behind the pulpit.

And pastors really need to own that principle. It's constitutional and it's their speech rights as well.

Sometimes there's this idea, and I have no idea where it started quite frankly, the idea that a pastor surrenders his constitutional protections for speech when they become a pastor.

Well that's ludicrous. Can you imagine if when someone decided to become a pastor, they said, okay, now the government says you have to give up your real right against unlawful search and seizures if a police officer stops you.

Well of course not, that's ridiculous. And so pastors really need to remember that they still have, and of course they have, the full protections under the

First Amendment that all of their fellow citizens do as well. That being said, Alliance for Funding Freedom has created a very helpful manual called

Protecting Your Ministry. Anyone can go to our website, adslegal .org,

and download a copy of this manual. I would highly recommend that every pastor do this because, like it or not, it is likely that we're seeing a coming storm, especially with issues related to marriage and sexuality.

And so it's very important that pastors protect their ministry. And there are practical ways they can go about doing that.

That include looking at the bylaws and the mission statements and in certain ways the church operates. And this manual is very helpful and will walk a pastor through everything that they need to do to make sure that their ministry remains protected.

That's excellent news. And if you could repeat that website for our pastors listening so that they can download that information.

Absolutely. So they would go to adslegal .org, so that's the Alliance for Funding Freedom website, and then look for the

Protecting Your Ministry manual. And it's downloadable off our website. Very, very helpful.

It's very practical, step -by -step, everything that a pastor needs to do. Well, now you mentioned that it's ludicrous how we're losing our rights and things.

I find it difficult to believe that we could even win any of these cases because of how liberal the courts have become.

How are we doing? Really, it's interesting. Like I said, we've seen a lot of success fighting this abortion pill mandate.

It's been tricky with some of these creative professionals, even though we have so much support from the American public saying, look, we're really concerned to pick a government that could punish people if they don't create custom work or promote a message with which they disagree.

I will tell you that there is an interesting, one of our clients, and we're seeing some success here with the

Atlanta Fire Chief, Chief Calvin Cochran. Amazing man. In fact, one of the most decorated fire chiefs in this country.

Born in Shreveport, Louisiana. Was born in poverty. Had a single mother who was raising

Chief Cochran and his siblings. When he was five years old, they were literally living in a house that was in an alley in Louisiana.

Very, very poor. One of the neighbor's houses caught fire. Chief Cochran said that he remembers distinctly as a five -year -old going out there and seeing the members of the fire service put out that fire.

He realized that that's what he wanted to do. He had three goals. One was to be a father and have a family since he didn't have that himself.

One was to be a member of the fire service. Another was not to be poor. He was told that if you follow a word and you do right by people, you can have that.

You can be successful. And you can have that quote -unquote American dream. And this is something that he says regularly. So this is what he did.

He fought discrimination himself. He's an African -American man, and he fought discrimination in the 1970s, 1980s, 1960s.

Louisiana. Rose through the ranks. Became chief of the fire department there. Went over to Atlanta. Became chief there.

President Obama himself recruited him to be the chief fire administrator for the entire

United States. But Atlanta missed him so badly that the mayor begged him to come back. He was so good that one of the national fire magazines gave him the award as fire chief of the year for the entire country.

And he actually raised fire insurance rates for the entire city of Atlanta because of some of the projects and programs he implemented.

And chief copper is a Christian, and he's very involved in the men's ministry at his church. And so on his own private time, he wrote a men's devotional book that was designed to help men combat self -condemnation and to be everything that the

Bible teaches men should be and that Christ wants for them. So he wrote this book, and in 164 pages, in a couple of paragraphs, he talks about the

Bible's plan and design for marriage. And essentially just lifts out of the Bible the Bible verses that talk about God's plan for sexuality.

This is a couple of paragraphs in the book. Well, next thing you know, this book and those passages are shown to an openly gay member of the

Atlanta City Council who finds that offensive, the Bible's teaching on that. And Chief Cochran was then suspended without pay for 30 days.

An investigation was launched to see if he had ever, quote -unquote, discriminated against anyone because of his Christian belief.

The investigation found nothing. No surprise there. This is one of the most decorated firefighters in our country.

A great man. A man, by the way, who actually had created policies to combat discrimination because of what he himself had faced when he was rising through the ranks.

And yet he was fired. He was completely fired from this job. And right now, we're litigating this lawsuit, and we're suing the city and saying you can't fire someone because of their

Christian faith, which is what they did. And the city is fighting that, and they asked the judge to throw the lawsuit out, but the judge said no, this lawsuit needs to go forward.

So there will be a trial for this, and it'll be interesting to see what happens there. We do have

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, who says,

I remember some time ago, a woman who had committed adultery was put under church discipline by her congregation, which was within the group called the

Church of Christ. That church does not believe that it is biblical to have confessions of faith or creeds, so therefore they did not have it spelled out in detail what would happen to her as a part of this church if she were to commit adultery.

She wound up being disfellowshipped and sued the congregation, and I can't remember whether or not she won or lost.

But is it very important for churches to have detailed documents that expresses the protocol of what happens in regard to church discipline to protect themselves from lawsuits?

Some churches don't even believe in such a thing as church membership, so it makes themselves even more susceptible to being sued.

If you could comment on that. Sure. Obviously every situation is different, and there are so many facts that go along with any kind of potential case, but yeah, as a general principle for any church or any religious organization, it's very important that your bylaws are clear, your mission is clear, your foundation is clear.

Because that way, regardless of whatever situation pops up later on, you can point back to those documents and the mission statements, and say, look, this is who we are and this is what we believe.

And then you go from there. By the way, you may have been a little kid when that case was in the news.

I remember that case. Yeah, I'm not familiar with it. Because I was wondering, because I can't remember if she won or lost either.

Well now, this isn't quite to do with the First Amendment, or is it? You obviously are dealing with a number of issues of church and state, and where the lines are drawn,

I presume. What has come up in our area recently, in central

Pennsylvania, is the issue over churches being forced to have their nursery workers, ushers, and everybody undergo background checks and fingerprinting and all of that.

I'm just wondering how the government has the right to come into the church and dictate that they have to go through all of these things.

What's your take on that? You know, I'm not familiar with those particular situations, so I don't want to comment on that without knowing,

I guess, more facts. But obviously, as a general principle, religious organizations should be free to operate as a religious organization.

However, things can change, obviously. When, say, a church or a religious institution open up, say, a business or open to the public, there are different rules and laws.

It's just important to know the local rules and laws and see what's been done and what can be done.

It's hard to really comment without knowing all that. I was wondering if you could tell us something about the

Jack Phillips story. Do you know the case that we're talking about? Yeah, absolutely.

Jack Phillips is a cake designer in Colorado. He is a

Christian man. He doesn't have his shop actually open on Sundays. He doesn't create items for Halloween.

He doesn't create items for bachelorette or bachelor parties. Jack's great. I've spent a lot of time with him.

He's a wonderful human being. He's another one of these people who has served his community for many, many years and lovingly done so and provided all kinds of goods and goodies for the people that have walked in through the doors of his shop.

Then one day, a same -sex couple came in and asked Jack to create a custom wedding cake for their same -sex ceremony.

Jack very politely told them, I'll sell you anything else in here. I can sell you brownies. I can sell you cookies.

I can serve you this, but I basically can't create custom work for a ceremony that violates my beliefs about marriage.

The couple stormed out. They cursed at him. Next thing you know, Jack was being sued. We're currently waiting to see if one of the highest courts in Colorado will take his case.

What's really interesting about the Jack Phillips story is that this so -called

Human Rights Commission, which initially ruled against Jack, well, there was an interesting situation simultaneously going on not too long after this initial lawsuit that happened in the same exact area of Colorado.

There, a man went to cake designers and bakers there and asked them to create a cake that supported traditional marriage and that had a message that clearly disagreed with same -sex marriage.

Well, those cake designers said, look, we don't want to create a cake, create custom work, that's support that is anti, if you will, same -sex marriage.

You can have anything else, but we're not going to do that. Well, this man sued them under the same exact laws that Jack Phillips sued.

The case was looked at by the exact same commission that looked at Jack's case.

But guess what? They said that those bakers don't have to create those cakes. I mean,

I'm laughing, but it's just… It's appalling. Yeah, it is. It's appalling. It's just absolutely pathetic, the obvious bias that is being done here.

They actually compared Jack. This is horrible. Some of the people who heard his case, the commissioners, they compared

Jack to slave owners and Nazis. One time of him saying,

I'm sorry, I can't create custom work for us, a religious ceremony that violates my religious beliefs. Unbelievable.

It is unbelievable. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know if you have ever come or your organization has ever come face -to -face with the

Southern Poverty Law Center in a court case. The Southern Poverty Law Center likes to make a lot of noise, and they like to bully organizations like ours into not standing for freedom and into not standing for the freedom of religious people.

They always are commenting on something, but it's really…

Again, anybody who loves freedom should really be supporting our clients, because again, it's not really…

When you look at it in the big picture, it's not really about marriage. If the government can come in and force someone to create a message with which they disagree, under threat of severe penalty.

What is the most common reason that you at ADL, or ADF, I'm sorry, are contacted?

What are the rights being violated that would provoke someone to call you typically, most often?

It's interesting. We have such a wide variety of things. We've talked about the abortion till mandate cases, and we have a lot of clients for that.

We have these conscience clients, like we like to call them, the creative professionals. We also do a lot of university work, speech work, actually.

In fact, this is an area that ADF works on that is not as well known, but we have litigated extensively in this area.

What this basically boils down to is oftentimes, public universities create these things called speech zones, but they're essentially censorship zones, where students are limited to basically like a postage stamp size of the campus, where they're able to speak and distribute literature, say about the

Constitution, or about a pro -life rally. The school officials make it very difficult for these students to promote these events and to speak about them.

They do so typically in an unconstitutional way, where the way the rules are set up, it leaves these administrators in a position of unfettered discretion, where they can pick and choose who gets to speak and when.

So Alliance for Funding Freedom has successfully litigated, and sometimes it just involves us sending them a letter.

We say, hey, look, your policies, these are not constitutional, and people have a right to speak on a public sidewalk about the issues that matter, that could be in our day.

Sometimes it involves a lawsuit, but this is something that we're actively involved in across the country. And we're almost always successful in those suits.

And right now, what do you think are the greatest dangers in regarding the loss of freedom for Christians and churches and Christian paratrooper organizations?

I really can't emphasize enough, I know we've been talking about it over and over throughout this recording, this idea of conscience.

Conscience is under attack in a way that, you know, I'm 33, so I can only speak to my 33 years of existence, but this concept that the government can punish people and really run them out of their lives, run them out of their careers, run them out of their own homes and their retirement savings, take away their dogs, and I'm not kidding right now, that's something that is potentially up for grabs in the case of Daryl Sussman, the grandmother florist in Washington State.

If they do not promote a message that the government is wanting them to, that completely violates the essence of who they are.

We're seeing this pop up again and again, and it's scary, quite frankly.

Yes. Well, I really want to make sure, before we run out of time, before I go to a couple of more listener questions,

I want to make sure that you leave our listeners with the things that you most want etched in their hearts and minds before you leave the program.

You know, it's really important, and I cannot emphasize this also enough, that people stay vigilant in their communities, in their towns, in their cities, and this is what

I mean by that. It's been very interesting to me. I've worked in the U .S. for a little bit over two years, and it has been, quite frankly, astounding what goes down at the local level.

So, you know, some people think, well, there's nothing I can do. What can I do? You know, I'm just this one person in this town, in this state.

Well, no, that's not that. You can do a lot, and here's why. Things that go down at these city council meetings and these ordinances that are passed, they set the tone and the stage for what happens on the national and state level.

And so when people are successful in fighting ordinances, say, that, for instance, allow men into women's restrooms and locker rooms, and that's something that we're seeing pop up right now across the country, if you can believe it.

But when the people get together, because people are against that, understandably. There's a real concern for the safety and privacy of both men and women and children.

And so the American people are, justifiably, very concerned about this. But what we've seen, especially in that situation, if you remember the

Houston situation, when the people got together in Houston and fought this kind of bathroom bill, they were successful.

And now that doesn't exist in Houston, but that sets the tone for what happens at the state and national level. So we're seeing this happening right now in Charlotte, North Carolina.

And there's a lot happening right now with the people there. But that's why it's important to go to those meetings, to remain vigilant, because, quite honestly, you never know.

That one person's voice and standing for privacy and safety and truth can make a difference on a national level if it's stopped right there.

You brought up that issue of the public restrooms. It immediately reminded me of something that I asked another guest that puzzles me.

It would seem that the feminists and the liberals, who are often one and the same and being driven by each other's causes, you would think that there would be an infighting or some kind of a sharp contrast in opinion on that, because feminists, as you know, even though you are fairly young,

I think that it may be more of a part of their rhetoric in the past, but it still exists that the typical view of men in feminist rhetoric is that they are predatory upon women and that they are basically sexually driven, wicked individuals that want to dominate and abuse women and subject them and use them as sex objects and so on.

And there you have this weird situation where you have liberals fighting for the rights of men to go into a ladies' room just because he's wearing a dress.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, no, it's mind -boggling. It's like, really? Really, guys? This is where we're at?

Do you realize the, first of all, absurdity, but also the fact that, like you said, it really undermines the whole narrative?

Right. Do you know of any feminists that were actually joining the conservatives and trying to stop that?

You know, I'm not, nothing, no one's coming to mind right now. I'm sure there are, because there is a lot of concern about this issue, you know, from liberals as well.

People realize that there is a lot of room for abuse when you open up locker rooms and restrooms to the opposite gender.

This is not even a religious thing. This is a common -sense thing. And legislators who are passing and creating legislation that protect the privacy and dignity and safety of the people in their states and their towns and their cities, they should be commended.

Because the reality is, I don't know that any governor or any legislator would want on their watch,

God forbid, something to happen in one of their public facilities, because they caved to these bully activists who are pushing for damaging legislation that I don't really think helps anybody.

Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is bizarre in that also. So bizarre. Because, like, for instance, the feminists would even rally alongside with evangelical

Christians during issues regarding pornography and so on, because they, at one time, were militant against the abuse of women and being made sex objects and pornography and so on.

We do have Bebe from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, this is similar to an earlier question about liberals, but do any politicians and elected officials in the

Democratic Party ever rally along your side in cases defending religious freedom?

Oh, absolutely. And you see these, yeah, absolutely, we've seen bipartisan efforts on issues of religious freedom, on issues of life.

Let's take, for instance, it's so funny, you're probably familiar with the passage, the attempted passage, of the

State Religious Freedom Act that would protect people of faith within a state. But let's remember where this came from in the first place.

This was modeled after the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act that was passed and signed into law by Congress in the early 90s by a nearly unanimous bipartisan

Congress. Bill Clinton, then -President Bill Clinton, signed into law. The ACLU supported it.

And so that was, you know, religious freedom, that was something that was unanimously respected and acknowledged.

And so nowadays, you know, we still see that here and there. I think there's been more of a politicizing, unfortunately, of religious freedom.

The left and activists have very inaccurately and really mischaracterized religious freedom in that they've tied it to marriage and sexuality in a way that while there is that relationship, religious freedom obviously goes so much more beyond that, and it's a foundational freedom for all of the other freedoms.

And so it's really within the best interest of, you know, either party to support the freedom of Americans to continue to be able to operate according to who they are.

Do you find yourself, when you look at this country, you look at the presidential races going on and the primaries on both sides of the aisle, do you look at yourself and think of yourself as an optimist about the future of this country and of the rights of Christians, or are you more and more pessimistic?

That's a good question. I would say that it needs to start with the church.

And if you don't have Christians in the church and pastors rallying together and say, hey, we're going to stand for freedom and we're going to stand for the truth that the

Bible is so clear about, we don't have a shot. So it really needs to start within our church community.

And this is not just our duty as Christians before God, but it's really our obligation as American citizens.

We're in a very unique position as citizens of this country. We're a self -governing people, this great experiment, but there really is something to be said for that.

God has created us and we live here, we live in this particular country, and in a very unique situation where it's a real we the people by the people, and we need to take that seriously, and especially

Christians. And Christians need to, like I said, remain vigilant and active and engaged, both as a

Christian and just as a citizen of this great country. Well, in about a minute's time, if you could just summarize the most important things on your mind today.

Like I said, we have an obligation as Christians, as Americans, to continue to remain vigilant and engaged on the local level, to continue to be bold for what we know is truth, to continue to not be, and to fight against those who would bully us into being quiet.

And that's something I see a lot. I see that even on the national level. I see that with senators and members of Congress. They get scared.

They're bullied. And that certainly trickles down to all of us, but we shouldn't be. God is clear. The word of God is clear.

The Bible is true. And we need to stand firm and hold on to that, because it's not just religious freedom that's at stake.

It's really the freedom in general that we hold so dear in this country. Well, I know that your website is adf, for Alliance Defending Freedom, legal .org,

adf, as in freedom, legal .org. I want to thank you so much,

Carrie, especially since it was late notice for being on the program, and I look forward to having you back. It was definitely a fascinating and information -packed interview.

Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Well, God bless you, and we'll talk to you soon, God willing. Sounds good.

Bye -bye now. Bye -bye. And don't go away, ladies and gentlemen and brothers and sisters, because we have coming on the program any second now another guest that should prove to be fascinating.

We have C .L. Edwards, who is a former Salafi Muslim who converted to Christianity, and he is going to be giving his testimony for us today.

He came highly recommended by David Wood of answeringmuslims .com, and we are going to be discussing his testimony and also getting

C .L. Edwards' take or his assessment on current events that involve the

Islamic community globally and terrorist attacks that have been occurring and so on.

If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our e -mail address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. But if it makes you feel more comfortable, you may remain anonymous.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with C .L. Edwards, a

Salafi Muslim convert to Christianity. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's lynnbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our second guest today comes by the high recommendations of our friend

David Wood of answeringmuslims .com and the

Acts 17 Apologetics Network. He told me that I've got to get our guest today,

C .L. Edwards, as a guest. He is a Salafi Muslim who converted to Christianity.

I guess I should phrase that a former Salafi Muslim who converted to Christianity. And he is a good friend of David Wood who is the speaker at the next

Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor's Luncheon, Spring Pastor's Luncheon.

That's going to be taking place on April 28th. I'm speaking of David Wood now, from 11 a .m.

to 3 p .m. And I'll be giving you more information on how you, if you are a man in ministry leadership, are available to attend this if you live nearby or in Pennsylvania, or if you know a pastor who may be able to attend, maybe your own pastor.

We'll give you more details about that. But first of all, let me welcome for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, C .L.

Edwards. Hello, brother. Hello, brother. It's good to hear that phrase from you now that you are covered with the blood of the

Lamb. Amen, amen. Amen. And let me introduce you to my co -host,

Reverend Buzz Taylor. And I will say hello, brother, also then. Hello, brother, and I'm glad to meet both of you.

And, well, first of all, you've got to tell us about your experience in Islam.

I think, if I'm not mistaken, from my brief conversation with David before the program, because our listeners should know that C .L.

Edwards was gracious enough to be our guest today, very late minute notice. But were you a convert to Islam who then left by God's grace and became a

Christian? That is correct. I was a convert to Islam in my early 20s.

What were you at the time that you converted to Islam? I guess the general title,

Christian. So was your upbringing basically like a nominal Christian home where it was just, you know,

Christmas and Easter kind of a thing, or was it more deep and meaningful than that? It was a mixture.

My grandmother, my father's side, she was definitely saved.

But as far as my parents, they were nominal Christians. There wasn't much there as far as church attendance or Bible study or any of those type of things.

Well, I want to let our listeners know that C .L. Edwards today is a member of Harvest Bible Church and a current student at Manthano Christian College.

Am I pronouncing that right? That is correct, Manthano Christian College. And where is that located? That is actually located on the campus of Harvest Bible Church.

Okay. Westland, Michigan. All right, great. And your name that you adopted when you became a

Muslim, is it Akhil Ankay? No, that's not correct.

The actual name that I adopted while I was Muslim was Mu 'ayyid. Oh, okay.

I'm looking at the wrong name then. I'm sorry. It was Mu 'ayyid. Some people called me

Abu Yazid, which means the father of Yazid, which is the name of my son.

Oh, wow. Yeah, the name that I'm mentioning, which I'm probably butchering the pronunciation of it.

Actually, you said it correctly. Oh, I did. Okay, you're having a public discussion with this

Muslim, I believe it is, on your disagreements between Christianity and Islam.

That's April 9th, Saturday, April 9th, 9 a .m. to 12 p .m., and that's going to be at the

Harvest Bible Church on Newburgh Road in Westland, Michigan. That is correct.

And if anybody wants more information about that, they can go to HarvestDetroitWest .org.

HarvestDetroitWest .org. So tell us about what the attraction was to Islam when you were raised in an at least nominal

Christian home but with a very godly born -again grandmother. What was the attraction to abandon that type of an upbringing in favor of Islam?

Well, there were multiple things. I'm African American, Black American, and Islam has a history in the

Black American community. There's been a lot of, you can call it evangelism, for lack of a better word, to Black Americans, especially

Black American males. So I always grew up knowing about Islam and knowing about certain people like Malcolm X and the

Nation of Islam who were considered to be heroes in my community, who were considered to be upright, intelligent men who were role models.

And growing up in the church, for me, as I got older, I had that burning question inside me that everyone,

I believe, wants to know, who is God, where do I come from, what are my origins, where am

I going? These type of worldview questions. And I just came to a point where I didn't believe

I could find that in Christianity anymore. And that was probably in my early 20s.

Now, why didn't you think that you could find that in Christianity? Well, I had a lot of questions.

I always had a lot of questions. And really, there was, in the churches that I was affiliated with, the

Christians that I knew, no one could really address those questions. No one wanted to address those questions.

I had questions about the Incarnation, the Trinity, blood atonement, all these different things.

And the basic answer I got was, well, it's in the Bible and it's true. So that wasn't satisfying to me.

Now, you mentioned the Nation of Islam. Those of our listeners who may recognize who

Malcolm X is from history, those of our younger listeners who don't remember him actually being in the news and so on when they were alive.

And also, more recently, to the present, we have Louis Farrakhan being the head of the

Nation of Islam. Now, that, obviously, as you know, is not really Islam.

It's a cult that kind of masquerades as being Muslim, but the tenets of it violate

Islam just as much, if not more, than Christianity does. I mean, they believe that Allah was a man and so forth.

So, obviously, go ahead, I'm sorry. I'm going to say, actually, the

Nation of Islam that exists today is not the original Nation of Islam. The Nation of Islam was taken over by the son of Elijah Muhammad who took shahada and became an actual

Sunni Muslim. Right, I had heard that. Yes, the group was converted to a Sunni Islamic group affiliated with some of the top groups like Isna and MSA and all the big -name

Muslim groups today. They are affiliated with them. And so, you were not actually ever involved in that.

You went straight into Islam. Yes, I seriously contemplated joining the

Nation of Islam. I liked a lot of their teachings and I liked a lot of what they had to say.

I liked the image of the black man who was upright and religious and disciplined and very attractive.

But I couldn't buy into all of their theology, some of the more racist theology and some of the more outlandish, spiritual beliefs they have.

So, I was told to read the Quran by some people and they were like, this isn't real

Islam. You don't know anything about real Islam. You need to read the Quran. So, I read the

Quran and I found out about real Islam and did a little study and not too soon after that I ended up taking my shahada and becoming a

Muslim. Were there those from within Islam that were befriending you and evangelizing you, for lack of a better term, proselytizing you, urging you to convert?

Or is this something just done through your own study? It was kind of my own study.

I was online a lot and I was on different discussion groups speaking to people who began speaking to Muslims and also at the time

I was working in downtown Detroit, where I come from, and there was an Islamic bookstore not too far from my job and I used to go to the bookstore on my lunch break, have conversations with Muslims and look at the books and I would purchase some of the books.

The material, read it and view it. Just out of curiosity, many years ago,

I would say it was back in the 90s. In fact, I'm pretty certain it was back in the 90s.

I had arranged an interview on another talk show on the station where I worked.

The in -house talk program was Andy Anderson Live and I had somehow become acquainted with Pastor John Davis in Detroit, who was, before becoming a

Christian, a member of the Nation of Islam and was actually one of Malcolm X's bodyguards.

I was just curious if he was still there in Detroit. Are you aware of him still being there or not? To be honest with you,

I'm not aware if he's still here or not. Okay, I was just curious. Now, I have heard from other

African American Christians that left the

Nation of Islam that one of the main draws into that, and we could even include with that Islam, that you are a part of the true religion of Islam.

When I say true, I don't mean that the teachings are true, but what I mean by is authentic Islam.

One of the major draws was the upbringing that they had as a

Christian in the black community was dominated by matriarchalism, that there were so many women in places of power that men felt emasculated.

In fact, men were a minority in the churches and so on. Of course, we can't broad -brush and say that that's the case with all churches in the

African American community, but it is something that is quite prevalent.

Was that a part of the reason that you left that upbringing because you didn't really have the masculine role models that you were looking for and so on?

I would say that looking back, it was a huge part. To be honest with you, my father, he had a lot of demons in his life.

He wasn't available to me, especially during my teenage years, to mentor me and guide me.

My other male family members, they also had drug and alcohol issues.

So there really was no adult male in my life who would show me how to actually be a man, transition from being a boy to a man.

So for a lot of us, my age group, in my school, in my community, we looked to certain individuals.

If we saw an individual who was disciplined and seemed like they had their life together, then you would take that person as your role model or your mentor.

Now for some people that was, growing up in Detroit, some people that was the drug dealer.

The drug dealer had his life together and he had money, he had success. And for other people, they looked to people like Malcolm X and other people in the

Islamic movement or Islamic -related movements. Now you were a

Salafi Muslim. If you could explain exactly what that means. Okay.

Within Islam, there are two main branches. Some people would know Sunni Islam.

The majority of Muslims are Sunni. Then there is Shia Islam. And that whole division goes way back into Islamic history about who was supposed to be the caliph after Muhammad died.

We won't get into all that. But within Sunni Islam, there are different schools of thought.

And one of the more recent schools of thought that came from a man named

Ibn Abdul Wahab in Arabia. He's considered the founder of Salafism.

This movement called Salafi Islam. Salaf is an

Arabic word for basically like an ancestor. The previous generations.

So a Salafi is a person who they understand, they keep their understanding of the

Quran and the Hadith and Islam from the Salaf, the previous

Muslims. And technically in Islam, that's considered the first three. Some people would say the first four generations after Muhammad of Islam or the first three or four centuries after Muhammad.

So what would be the typical attitude of a Salafi Muslim in regard to acts of terrorism?

Salafi Islam, one of their, for lack of a better word, is a literal translation and application of the

Quran and the Hadith. So they don't believe in mystifying the primary text of Islam.

They don't believe in allegory. Wherever the text goes, that's where you go.

You take it literally. So when you find statements in the

Quran and the Hadith about jihad, holy war, fighting the infidel, fighting the non -Muslim, the kuffar, enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, and the greatest act of enjoining the good is to enjoin the good with your hands by force to establish

Islamic law in the place. Make that land Islamic to purify it from what's called shirk or polytheism.

So for the Salafi Muslim, and within Salafi Islam, there are different schools of thought when it comes to jihad, but all of them believe in a literal jihad.

All of them believe that literally a Muslim is obligated to fight for the cause of Islam and to establish

Islam in the land. The difference would be how you would apply that.

There are differences between some of the Salafi Muslims about how to apply that.

So people like ISIS, Al -Qaeda, who have a Salafi base, they believe that now is the time to put those verses of the

Quran in effect. Now is the time to rise up and have jihad, fight. Others would say this is not the appropriate time.

We don't have the resources. We don't have the upper hand. We have to patiently wait until we have the upper hand and the resources to be able to fight jihad.

Yeah, in fact, David Wood, our mutual friend, had told me that he became acquainted with somebody involved in homeland security who is a

Muslim, and he believed in jihad, but he thought that the acts of terrorism were actually thwarted.

The main reason he was opposed to the acts of terrorism was that they were thwarting the success of the ultimate goal of jihad taking place by being premature in the same way that you were just stating and being more of a harm for that reason, not for any true compassion for the safety and lives of innocent victims, but more for the fact that the goal was being thwarted from taking place successfully.

Yes. But how long ago were you converted into Islam?

I'm sorry if I can't remember the exact period when that happened. It was maybe like 1999.

So it was before the World Trade Center attack. Yes, it was before that. And what was your reaction to that when that occurred?

Yeah, that raised a lot of doubts in my mind. It was very confusing.

At that time, I was not a Salafi Muslim, but I was involved with a certain community in the

Detroit area. It was a Sunni community, but the leadership were

African Americans. They were quite radical. Many of the members had previously been a part of the

Black Liberation Army, the Black Panthers back in the 70s, and they converted to Islam.

So there was a lot of talk about it. There were a lot of guns, people carrying guns, a lot of people talking about jihad and preparing for jihad.

And then 9 -11 happened. And there was a lot of confusion and fear in the

Islamic community. Many people were afraid. People were afraid that, you know, what's going to happen?

What's our future in America? You mean that you would be broad -brushed with the terrorists and persecuted? Exactly.

And the leader of that particular community basically called for kind of a secret meeting.

Everybody who wasn't afraid, you're not afraid. If you're not afraid, come to this meeting, and we're going to talk about what we're going to do.

And even though he didn't mention violence, it was implied, in my opinion.

I didn't go to that meeting, and I didn't return to that particular mosque. I kind of didn't attend any mosque for a few months.

But then I can say at that point I kind of got my grounds and repented and found a new community to be a part of.

That's actually when I began to be taught or indoctrinated, however you want to look at it, with Salafi Islam.

Well, it seems interesting that you went from being confused and concerned after the 9 -11 attacks to joining a group that's more militant later on.

That seems to almost contradict itself. Well, it depends on how you look at it.

Because the Salafis looked at those guys as being deviants. They were

Muslims, but they were deviants because of their theology, because of their methodology, how they interpreted the

Quran, how they interpreted Islamic law, certain issues. So they weren't following the way of the

Salaf. They saw them as being a little bit over -excited as far as jihad and violence.

These guys were ready to pick up their guns and go out and fight jihad. Salafis that I knew looked at them as being overzealous.

So what were the things that God providentially brought into your life where the dominoes started to fall later on and you more and more started to question being a

Muslim? Well, that I actually, maybe midway through being a

Muslim, I got married according to Islamic law.

I didn't actually get a marriage license through the state, so it was an Islamic ceremony recognized in the

Islamic community. I got married and my wife at the time, she really wasn't buying into Salafism.

She kind of wanted to practice a more liberal style of Islam.

Just go to the mosque, do your prayers, read the Quran. But don't be so strict and literal.

I can readily understand why a woman would not want to be strict and literal Muslim. Yes.

At that time I was fully on the Quran and Sunnah as we used to say.

We were on the Quran and Sunnah. I wanted to take it literally. I wanted to implement it now.

I wanted her to make sure she did all her prayers on time correctly. I wanted her to wear all black.

I wanted her to cover her face with niqab. Stay in the house. No television, no westernized television, no westernized entertainment.

Read the Quran, do your prayers, study. That's what you do. So the marriage took place.

Your wife is hesitant about Sufism and then what did the

Lord bring into your life to really start pulling you out of that system?

Because of our differences, we couldn't make the marriage work.

We couldn't live together basically. We broke up. I had a son at this point.

It's not really what I dreamed of when I had my child. I had this dream of raising my son on the

Quran and raising him in Salafism from birth.

And that dream kind of failed. That was one thing. At the time,

I was very diligent and active in trying to give dawah, which is basically

Islamic propagation, Islamic evangelism, trying to get

Christians and other non -Muslims to take their shahada and become Muslim. So that caused me to have dialogues with a lot of Christians.

And I was having dialogues with a lot of Christians and that was the work of the

Lord. Because I was having these conversations with Christians and they were trying to answer my questions and objections to Christianity while defending their faith at the same time.

And I got to hear a lot of Christian apologetics. Even though I was completely against Christianity in my heart,

I would stay up at night thinking about those conversations, thinking about the things that we were talking about.

The last year that I was Muslim, I remember Ramadan, which is the biggest holiday in Islam, which lasts a month.

It's a month of fasting during the daytime and giving charity and doing all types of good works.

You really work hard in Ramadan because you believe that your good works are going to basically pile up in your salvation bank account and earn you heaven.

And I remember that Ramadan I was having my doubts, I was kind of shaken up about my failed relationship.

These conversations I was having with Christians, hearing these things that they were saying, and I decided

I'm going to be really diligent this Ramadan. And I really was. And once Ramadan was over,

I found myself being depressed. I was depressed because I honestly could not answer the question of a

Christian of what was going to happen to me when I died. I had no type of assurance of salvation.

I knew if I died as a Muslim and I had my good deeds, I may have to suffer in hell,

I may have to suffer with punishment in the grave, but Muhammad would intercede for me and I would eventually get to heaven.

But that was not very reassuring. That was not very reassuring spiritually for me.

It caused depression for me. And I really started looking to these

Christians that I was speaking to and debating with and asking them questions. And it just got to the point where I had this burning question in my heart and I needed to pick up a

Bible and read it. I had this burning desire to read the Bible. I hadn't read the Bible in years. And I had a

Bible from before I became Muslim. I still had it in my house and I picked the

Bible up, read the Gospel of Matthew, prayed. And to be honest with you, by the time

I got to the crucifixion of Christ and reading the crucifixion of Christ and him resurrecting from the grave,

I no longer was Muslim. I believed in the Gospel at that point.

Wow, and that shows you the miraculous nature of regeneration and salvation because you were taught as a

Muslim that that didn't happen. You were taught that Christ was not crucified and therefore he did not raise from the dead because he wasn't crucified.

Yes. And so that is indeed fascinating. We're going to be going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air when we return with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back with C .L. Edwards and more of his testimony and also his assessment on current events involving the

Islamic community and global acts of terrorism when we come back.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our second guest for the day has been

C .L. Edwards, a former Salafi Muslim who, by God's grace and mercy, converted to Christianity.

He is a born -again believer in Christ. We are discussing his testimony, and very shortly we'll be getting more of his reactions and assessments of current events involving the

Islamic community and acts of terrorism globally. And before Reverend Buzz asks a question,

I just wanted to quick ask you, because it coincides with the crucifixion and how not only is the

New Testament itself looked upon with great suspicion by Muslims because they believe in some of it, but not all of it, that it has been corrupted.

The very accounts of the crucifixion are outright denied, and therefore so are the teachings of the resurrection.

But the most wicked sin that a Muslim can ever commit, or anybody could commit in the eyes of a

Muslim, is the sin of shirk, where you are adding partners to God, as they call it.

But the fact that you came to embrace Christ as God, that must have been an enormous mountain there that God enabled you just to hurdle over.

Well, everything said is correct. Islam outright, it accepts that Jesus, or as they would say,

Isa Ibn Maryam, was a historical figure, that he was a prophet and a messenger.

He had the gospel or the NGO. But they deny that he was crucified on the cross, deny the burial, deny the resurrection.

It explicitly says this in the Koran, I believe, Sura 4 .157

-158, you can find that in the Koran, where it says that the

Jews wanted to kill Jesus, but another person was made to look like Jesus, and they crucified him in Jesus' place.

Jesus ascended up into heaven. The ascension part was not in the

Koran, but it's in the Hadith. So yes, I was totally against all of that.

There's a line of conspiracy thinking in Islam.

You know, the Bible has been corrupted. The Jews corrupted it.

The Jews have been hiding this fact. The story about Jesus being crucified, this was inserted into the text.

Mohammed's mentioned in the Bible, but they are hiding it. So there's a lot of this conspiracy theory type stuff in Islam.

And I was deep into that as well. But when it came to the point, like I said, when

I reached that point where I sat down and read the Gospel, and I had that urge, that powerful urge to read the

Gospel for myself, and I came to that point where I got to the end of the

Gospel of Matthew, it wasn't hard, because I just did not believe in Islam anymore.

And I did believe in Jesus Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection. It was hard announcing that.

Well, that just shows you again, as I said before, that salvation is of the Lord. This is not just some intellectual conclusion you came to out of your own wisdom or what have you, or innate abilities.

This was indeed a spiritual miracle, where a dead man rose from the grave, spiritually, that is.

You sort of answered my question there, because I was wondering how you got out after, you know, with how much you had been taught against Christianity and believed the conspiracy theories and all that stuff.

It is amazing that just, you know, the Gospel is, even today, it's still the power of God, the salvation to everyone who believes.

You read it, you believed, and that's a joy. But now, I find it very confusing in discussing

Islam, because all the names, you know, obviously as an outsider, it gets confusing to hear all these different shades.

Would it be safe to assume that that would be like the various denominations within Christianity that are constantly disagreeing with each other?

Well, the difference would be that the Muslims are killing each other because of those differences. But I mean, that's a safe assumption, right? It's like denominations.

But because I was under the impression, evidently falsely, that it was a very monolithic group, that they all agreed, that one of the attractions for it was their unity.

Oh, no, because I'm sure that C. L. Edwards will back me up, but aren't more Muslims dying at the hands of Muslims than anybody else in the world?

That is correct. And that's because of the differences. Yes. I would say the major groups,

Sunni Islam versus Shia Islam, you can see those as two denominations.

But within those groups, there are different what are called schools of thought and schools of theology.

And so you have different groups that have a different methodology on how they interpret the

Quran. They have differences about theological issues, understanding

Allah's essence and his being and his attributes. They have differences of opinion concerning the text of the

Quran itself and what's called Manhaj, which is Islamic methodology on how to understand and apply

Islamic law. There's what's called Fiqh, which is the Islamic jurisprudence.

And there are four major schools of Fiqh in Sunni Islam. And within those schools, there can be certain differences.

And there are two major schools as far as theology. There's a literal school of theology and there's more of a figurative school of theology.

I'll give you an example. In Islam, in the Quran and the Hadith, it's said that there are certain passages about Allah having a hand or Allah having a face or Allah having kind of a human form,

Allah descending and ascending. Now the literalist would say, we literally affirm those things.

We affirm that Allah has a hand and a face and he ascends and he descends. But his face and his hands are not like the faces or the hands of creation.

But the figurative school would say, this is just figurative language. Allah can't literally have a hand.

He can't literally descend or ascend. So yeah, differences like that. I would think that the figurative school would view the literal school as being guilty of shirk.

Am I wrong on that? Not, no, because you have some very famous, well -known, accepted scholars of Islam who took that figurative position.

Like one of the four schools of fiqh is named after a scholar named

Ibn Hanbal. And he was a figurative scholar when it came to the issues of theology.

So he took the Quran literally. He's considered within orthodoxy. He's considered within what's called

Ahlus Sunnah or Islamic orthodoxy. So there's a range.

We're in orthodox Sunni Islam where you can go back and forth on these type of issues.

Of course, if you go outside of that range, you would be considered an apostate from Islam.

We do have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, who asks,

What is your opinion about American politicians trying to stop the immigration of Muslims from foreign countries into the

United States or at least put a moratorium on them until we can make absolutely sure they don't have terrorist intentions?

Yeah, that's a very big subject in the news today. Statements from some of the candidates, mostly on the right, for the statements of Trump, but other candidates as well.

My personal position is that at least from certain areas like Syria, maybe we do need to pause immigration for now until we can get some type of system in place that we can vet some of these people who are coming in, where they come from, what their background is, who are they affiliated with, what are their intentions when they get into America.

So within a limited scope, I am for pausing immigration in certain areas for Muslims.

Now, it has been long been the subject of discussion and debate amongst non -Muslims, whether they be

Christian or just secularists, as to whether Muslims in their majority actually believe and agree with and applaud, if it be silently, the acts of terrorism taking place around the world, even though only a minority are carrying them out and openly celebrating them.

What is your opinion on that? Do you believe from your own experience that most

Muslims are equally appalled by these things that are happening globally in Brussels and France and here in the

United States? Or are they perhaps, even if they're not the ones involved in terrorism, inside they're jumping up and down for joy and clapping their hands over it?

I would say, based on my personal experience with the Islamic community, especially in one of the biggest communities here in Detroit and Dearborn, I would say the majority of Muslims are shocked by what's happening in Brussels and Paris and 9 -11 and other places.

But a lot of them would see that America and the

West, France, Brussels, these different Western nations, they have it coming.

So on one hand, they're shocked by the technique that these terrorists are using, you know, suicide bombings and suicide belts and things like that.

They're shocked by the carnage. But on the other hand, America and the

West have it coming. They kind of deserve this. And of course there are

Christians that say the same thing. Because they will even point to the

Old Testament and how God used pagan nations to attack and do great harm upon the nation of Israel as a form of chastisement.

But that is a discussion for another time. Now why is it, in your opinion, the other mystery behind all this, why is it that all of these

Muslims, the majority of whom it is claimed are truly men and women of peace, why does there seem to be a deafening silence about these atrocious acts, except for what appears to be a handful of clerics that you will see on television, you know, speaking out against these things.

They are often the more moderate to liberal Muslims that are opposing these things.

And the protests are not proportionate to the thousands of people marching in the streets when a cartoon mocking

Muhammad is made. You know what I'm saying? That even if there is some protest to terrorism, it's not proportionate to the

Islamic outrage and uproar over Islam being insulted in any way.

Why is that, do you think? I would say because, just piggybacking on what

I said on the last question, that even though I would say the majority of Muslims are shot by suicide bombings and terrorist acts, they still see that the

West has it coming. So they can't view, may view the individuals who are affected by this terrorism as innocent bystanders, people who just happen to be in the train station or at the airport when this went by.

But the Western civilization as a whole is guilty. They are the ones who are supporting

Israel. They are the ones who have, you know, manipulated Islamic governments.

They are the ones who have stood in the way of Islam's comeback, so to speak.

So the West is standing in the way of the return of the Khalifa and the return of the glorious Islamic past.

So they get what's coming to them because of that. They stand and they are promoting shirk.

They are promoting polytheism. And with, you know, keeping the world from knowing about the truth of the

Koran and the Sunnah, they have it coming to them. Now, the mutual friend, a mutual friend of David Wood and mine,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, he has taken heat from Christians because he has actually gone on record on defending

Muslims, who he disagrees with vehemently on theology, obviously, because he is one of the foremost, alongside with David, one of the foremost debaters in the world,

Christian debaters opposing Muslim clerics and apologists, prominent

Muslim clerics and apologists all over the world, and including inside, on occasion, mosques, the very mosques that these clerics are from.

But he has been known of late to defend them when they are broad -brushed by the media or by other

Christian apologists who really want to paint the picture that the majority of Muslims, if not all,

Quranically faithful Muslims, really want to see these acts of terrorism taking place.

And he, you know, thinks that Christians need to do more study as to the differences that exist amongst the different Islamic groups.

Would you agree with Dr. White that there is too much broad -brushing and, in fact, slander going on, and even if we vehemently oppose the religion of Islam as being damning and false, do you think that there has been an overreach or an apologetics run awry when we are broad -brushing in too broad of a way?

I would say that I don't think from the broad general evangelical community we see that.

I don't see that in my church. You're talking about the broad -brushing you don't see? Yeah, I don't see that broad -brushing.

It's coming from pulpits. I don't see that coming from the majority of Christian churches and church leaders.

There is a group of people who, for religious and political reasons, they are very upset about ISIS.

They're very upset about terrorism. They see this going on, and I believe that some of them, they are crossing the line.

They are going a little bit too far. You know, I've seen comments on Facebook and YouTube from people who are confessing

Christians, you know, using foul, perverse language on Muslims and Islam, describing

Mohammed, very foul, perverse language, being very overly aggressive, confrontational about Islam, and I believe that is in the scope of biblical

Christianity. I think some of that does need to be addressed.

Some of that needs to be stopped and toned down. But overall, I don't believe that evangelical

Christians are broad -brushing Muslims or Islam. So you believe that Islam is being treated fairly and honestly for the most part?

For the most part, yes. There is that group of people who are going overboard, and they are not restraining themselves because of their emotions.

But for the most part, no. That's not happening among most evangelical leaders in churches and organizations.

We have an anonymous listener from Long Island, New York, who wants to know if you are in fear of your life since your conversion.

No. No, I'm not. I've had threats. I have death threats.

I've had former friends pray for Allah to destroy me. I get messages like that from time to time.

But no, I'm not afraid. I'm not fearful. I was just in Dearborn today.

So no, I'm not afraid that somebody is going to recognize me or see me or try to harm me.

I'm in the hands of Christ, and there's an inspiration date set for me. I like that.

Yeah, that date has been set by Him, so I don't fear any man. Amen. Well, I really want you to unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched on their hearts and minds before they leave the program today.

The thing I would say to your audience, who I believe is majority evangelical

Christians, is don't react to what's going on with paralyzing fear.

Don't overreact to what's going on that you see in Islam, whether it's immigration, whether it's

ISIS, whether it's terrorism. These are very serious things.

They need to be discussed. They need to be dealt with. But don't allow fear to paralyze you or to overcome you.

Move in the spirit of Christ. Move in the spirit of the Lord. And see this as an opportunity to do evangelism, to reach out to Muslims.

Don't be afraid of the Muslim who moves on your street, who's at your job.

See that as an opportunity to give them the gospel. And they may look hostile.

They may look different. They may have funny -sounding names. But believe me, Muslims enjoy talking about religion.

Muslims like to talk about religion. And I can guarantee you most of the Muslims you come in contact with, they will be happy to have a discussion with you and talk about these things with you.

And the door is open. You just have to get up and walk through it. Great. Well, I just want to repeat that the

Muslim -Christian discussion between our guests C .L. Edwards and Akhil Anke on the topic, first, what is the true nature of God, and then second,

Islam or Christianity, which faith provides true reform, on Saturday, April 9th at 9 a .m.,

will be held at the Harvest Bible Church on Newburgh Road in Westland, Michigan.

For more details, go to harvestdetroitwest .org. Harvestdetroitwest .org.

Do you have any more contact information you care to give? Yes, I also have a blog, and that is www .confronting

-islam .blogspot .com.

People can go there and see some of my blogs and videos that I've posted up from debates and other

Christian apologists. And they can contact me there as well. Great. I want to remind all pastors that we have the pastors' luncheon coming up on April 28th with David Wood, a mutual friend of my guest and mine, who will speak on Islam at the

Thornwald Mansion in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com if you're interested.

chrisarnson at email at gmail .com. I want you all to always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner, and we look forward to hearing your questions next time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.