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This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the

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Christian Podcast Community. All right, we are live,

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Apologetics Live, Matt Slick, Andrew Rappaport, Matt Slick from CARM .org. I am Andrew Rappaport from strivingforeternity .org.

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We are here to answer your theological, apologetical questions. Now, I will say this.

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For folks, there have been a lot of people, Matt, that have been challenging you, saying you've been dodging Catholic debates because you have a nerve to care for your wife.

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I didn't know that. Well, you had the people that were contacting you and saying that you have been dodging debates for the

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Catholics. Here's a question I have for all these haters of yours out there.

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Here we are, live, every Thursday night, 8 o 'clock Eastern time. Where are they?

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Come on in. They're whannies. So, what we do have to do is, for folks who are watching on YouTube, let me save this.

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If you go to apologeticslive .com, or if you're watching there, and you refresh your page, the link to participate is now there.

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So you can go to apologeticslive .com and get the link to join.

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And that is how you're going to be able to get your questions answered. And meanwhile,

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Matt, we could take some questions. We have a Facebook group where people come in and ask questions.

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And that is called, strangely enough, Apologetics Live. And so people can go there, ask questions there.

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That's what we'll sometimes start with. But Matt, you had an opportunity this weekend.

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You had the opportunity, I told you I wouldn't fight you if you wanted to pay for dinner this

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Sunday night. I'm not going to mess up your wedding. It was my daughter's wedding.

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That's right, your daughter's wedding. And you know, so I tried,

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I really did try to get out of paying for it. I told you I would, if you came, you were invited. I said that if you came,

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I wouldn't fight you over the bill. I started taking McDonald's and got you a couple, you know, some

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French fries, you know. You know, one of the things that Anthony Silvestro, you know,

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Dr. Silvestro, he really wanted one of these challenge coins that they have from the Ambassador's Academy, and the way that works is that if you challenge someone and they don't have their coin on them, they have to buy the meal.

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And if they have their coin on them, you have to buy the meal, whether it's a meal, coffee, whatever it is.

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So I purposely, he went out of his way to make sure he had one of those challenge coins. And I purposely brought mine to the wedding and I challenged him.

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He did not have his coin on him, and yet he still didn't pay for the dinner. I don't, you know, he should have paid for it.

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You know, it's going to happen. And I'm going to, I'm just going to make you feel bad when

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I finally do buy dinner and I'm going to rub it in every way I possibly can. And I'm just waiting.

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I know it's going to happen. I do too. It's going to happen. You fear that day. Yeah, that's right.

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And oh, I'm going to be snarky about it and gloating just like I did at McDonald's back in Manti.

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Hey, that reminds me, it looks like Mormonism is not going to be doing any more pageants. Yeah. So let's talk about that.

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Well, you can't even say Mormonism. We finished. That's it. Not going to do anymore. So let's start with the fact that you can't call them

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Mormons anymore. And then let's talk about the pageants. There's two new things going on with the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints that they want you to say. Yeah, I call them

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Mormons. So the president has come out and said, you're not allowed to call them Mormons. For folks who don't understand

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Mormonism, Matt, could you kind of give an explanation for folks of what that ends up meaning when just because one person says you can't do this.

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What's special about the president in Mormonism? In Mormonism, he's supposed to be the revelator and he has the final authority and everything in Mormonism and that he represents

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God. He's the prophet. And so what he says basically goes. And now he has stated that you're not supposed to call

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Mormons Mormons anymore. We just call them Mormons. And why do we do that? Because it's short.

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We just, that's what we do in language. We shorten things. That's all it is. You know, you're from the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. You know, LDS is much easier. What's that?

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LDS. It's just, it's easy. LDS. Are you LDS? Yeah. What does LDS stand for?

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Loser Denomination Sect? You know, I don't know. Mormon just, it works. I think

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I'm just tired of this. It's a game. You know, it's just, I'm still going to call them Mormons. Is it the

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Book of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints? Book of Mormon? No. Is it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints Choir? Tabernacle Choir? No. I wasn't going to bring that up. And I find it funny that it's, you know,

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Mormon .org and things like that, but. Give up Mormon .org. I'll take it. I'd be glad to take it.

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I would love to have Mormon .org. I would love it. So let me ask you this then.

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So you brought up the pageants. Now for folks who don't know, you've been going to Manti, Utah, where they have this major pageant every year for, it's been,

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I think they've been doing that for 50 years. They've been doing it 50 years. I've been out there off and on 15 years or so.

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You've been out a couple of times, three times? I've been out there for three years in a row now. This year before.

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And this, so this may be the last year. So if anyone wants to, in the, in June, the dates are set.

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This will probably be the biggest pageant being that it's going to be the last. Yeah. That's right.

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And I'll be there. Andrew will be there. And some other people like Bill McKeever might be there. Whatever. You don't know anything. People that know more than you and I combined on Mormonism.

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They've forgotten more about Mormonism than you and I combined. More than you and I ever learned. Yeah. That's right.

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In fact, they were here in the area. They're teaching right now, as a matter of fact, at our time. They're here in the

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Boise area. And I went and saw him two nights in a row just because I was bored one night ago. I said, oh, hey, I'm going to come out and watch you guys and, and, uh, could we go out to lunch?

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And I said, come out tonight and watch you guys. And you'll hear a lot of forehead slapping from the back of the room and, uh, tease them having fun.

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Wait, wait. You went to lunch with Bill McKeever. Doesn't he owe you lunch? I owe him lunch.

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That's right. There's a whole other thing with stupid lunch stuff. Why is it you owe Bill McKeever lunch?

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Because when we both lived down in San Diego County years ago, um, you know, we're friends and I said, hey

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Bill, I owe you a lunch for something, you know, it's whatever. He says, I'll come down and buy you lunch. So I drove all the way down 40, 40 minutes to get there and bought him lunch, except I didn't buy him lunch because I forgot my wallet and, uh, you know, it happens.

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So we kind of chuckled about it. And about two months later I said, hey Bill, I owe you a lunch. That one lunch plus another one.

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And, uh, I'll come down. And so I came down and bought him lunch and no lie. I reached for my wallet and I went, uh oh.

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And I could see the whole future right in front of me. And Bill just smiled, he goes, you forgot your wallet again, didn't you?

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And from then on, it's been about me buying Bill a lunch every time we go out. Even, even, uh, you know, a couple of days ago we went out to lunch, he goes, hey, did you bring a wallet?

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I'm like, uh, yeah. Some people are trying to say that you're just actually being smarter than the rest of us.

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And, you know, you've got Bill to buy you lunch, me to buy you dinners. Yeah. I have you guys fighting to buy me lunch thinking that I'm actually trying to buy you a lunch.

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I'm pretty slick. Yeah. That, that would be slick if we actually, but actually the fact that you've tried so hard to buy me, you know,

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I've tried, we were wrestling at one point and you got my card and you tucked it away. I'm like, okay, what am I going to do? All right. And then when, uh, at McDonald's, when

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I was rubbing it in, I go, Hey, cause you weren't feeling well. And you bought your own. I bought my own. And then I walk over by the soda machine and the lady behind the counter goes,

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Hey, your card didn't go through. No, because you were close to it. You whipped out your card and paid for it like crap.

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So, uh, that's it. That was funny too. That was hilarious. And that lady at McDonald's was great.

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She ripped on me a lot. She ripped on everybody. It was great. We go to Manti, we got to go back to McDonald's and hope that she's still there.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wanted to order something. And she was like, you know, real men don't order that for dinner.

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Okay. I don't, I won't order that. A lot of fun. So, uh, what do you want to talk about?

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You know, let's get something. We don't have anybody. We don't have anybody in. We do. We got someone in that just came in.

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Andrew Graham. I'm going to add him in now. I put the link up on, uh, is, is

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Roman Catholicism true that my Facebook page, uh, I put the the Roman Catholics for weeks.

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You know, this, uh, it's a very interesting thing because for years it used to be years ago that the, that Roman Catholics do formal debates and, and get on, on Bolton boards and debate and for, it just seemed like 10 or 20 years that they kind of went silent for a while.

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And now all of a sudden I've noticed in the last year or two, it seems like they're back at doing debates and wanting to do debates and, and discuss things again.

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Yeah. Catholics are saying, I need to debate, uh, all these top guys and I'm like, have them call me and we'll set it up, you know,

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I don't care, whatever. And then they say, how come you haven't gone after them? I'm like, uh, I'm only working 60 hour weeks, you know, and, and we're going to be moving in a few months and we're prepping the house for it.

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And I just did a, it's a release 180 articles on annihilationism, like,

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Oh, get this yesterday or day before my, uh, data drive crashed.

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Oh, so I have been, you know, it took me a while to build everything back in and do everything

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I was doing, blah, blah, blah. And now I'm downloading on Carbonite. I'm 2 % done after 24 hours.

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Yeah. That's why I have a Mac. Well, okay. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I have 500, oh no, it was been working for years.

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Okay. Things happen. And, uh, 520 gigs is being downloaded, so it's, it's a lot.

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Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, so, uh, we have Andrew Graham. I've added you in.

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If you want to unmute yourself and ask any questions you have and folks, if you want to join and ask questions, just go to apologexlive .com.

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There's a link to join there. So Andrew, welcome. Thank you. Um, Australia here.

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Um, don't really have any questions. Just thought I'd come in and hang out, see what was going on.

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Um, actually I was going to ask him about if he, um, if you guys have seen the, uh, the, the

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David Wood in the, uh, Muhammad Hijab, uh, debate, whether you guys had any, uh, uh, he apparently slaughtered him, but broke the rules and did everything.

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Of course. David Wood would slaughter anybody. he knows his stuff and Islam is not defensible. No, no, no, the other way around.

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Oh really? Muhammad Hijab, he broke the rules, he broke the contracts, there was thievery from what

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I heard, he had his laptop cord taken, just a whole bunch of things that went totally wrong.

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Whose laptop cord was taken? David Wood. Apparently.

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So they took David Wood's power cord, said he couldn't use his computer during the debate, is that what you're saying?

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Something like that, I don't know exactly why, I'm getting this, I heard him say about this, but yeah, just the whole debate just kind of seemed to be a one -sided affair and assault on Christianity from the

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Muslim point of view. Oh man, I want to get in and meet that guy, I want to debate him, that makes me mad, like yeah, okay, let's go, you know, yeah.

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Because he was accused of running from him and didn't even know who he was, but I'd advise you to check the debate out first to see what he actually went through.

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So David Wood versus who? Muhammad Hijab, as in the scarf that the

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Muslims wear. Okay. Oh, I heard about that,

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David Wood versus Muhammad Hijab, yeah, I'll check it out. Okay. Yeah. In the chat there,

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Matt. Yeah, in the chat. And I'm actually asking

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David right now about it, and maybe we can get him to join and tell us about it. Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah, was this the recent one in Brooklyn?

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I believe so, yeah. The council actually wrote something about it, here's a link to it right here.

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So, John, did you see this debate? That's a negative,

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I haven't seen it yet, I'm going to, it's on my list, my to -do list. Because I know that,

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I mean, David contacted me to see if we can get the New York Evangelism team out there, which we did have some folks there to be evangelizing there.

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And so, I just, with the murder's wedding, I kind of had some other things that I had to be doing.

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So, I couldn't make it. That's understandable. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was more focused on eating, because that's what

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I did a lot of at the wedding. Okay, good for you. Good for you. All right, so -

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So, you're down in Australia? Uh, yeah, Brisbane, to be specific. Oh, okay.

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What time is it there? Uh, 11 .15. In the morning, or -

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In the morning, on the 16th, Friday morning. So, you get one more lap around the sun, at least.

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Yeah, good. How long have you been listening to the show? I've heard about you many, many times.

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Um, over. I just started listening to it maybe a month ago.

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What do you mean? When you say you, do you mean the show, Apologetics Live? The Apologetics Live. Oh, this will be about my second time on it, but I've, like, joining in all the other your call -in shows about a month.

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Okay, well, good. Are you a Christian? Yes, I am. Um, I've, uh, come across Calm before because, uh, well, it was an interesting checkout.

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A lot of stuff on that site, huh? Oh, there is. I only went over as the general, um, uh, general cruise around,

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I guess I'll say. Yeah, there's a lot. Um, but yeah, I've, I've been getting into the apologetics circles, uh, really only for about two or three months now.

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Okay, well, there's a lot to learn. And it'll affect you. It'll affect you negatively.

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I mean, uh, just look at Andrew. Yeah, that's my friendship with you.

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I used to be normal. No, that's because of the apologetics. He used to be, see, he was muscular and blonde hair, blue eyes.

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And, uh, within two years he turned into, you know, it was like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

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And, uh, yeah. So that's okay. I'm a perfectly normal Asperger's syndrome person.

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So I'm already a little odd. You have Asperger's? Yeah. You know

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I do too? Diagnosed about 20 years ago. You were diagnosed? Well, you know I have Asperger's also.

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I figured you said so the other day. That was why I said, uh, welcome to the club. Yeah, welcome to the club.

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We're the only normal people. Everybody else, they got problems. You got it. That's right.

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Yeah. You know, I was talking to my wife last night. We're watching TV and this guy, some stupid commercial for Country Western, which

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I hate Country Western music, but they come on. The guy goes, there's no better experience than to host this. I'm like, no better experience?

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Oh no, no thrilling experience. I said, really? No thrilling experience? Oh, I could think of something more thrilling. Push you out of a plane with no parachute over a field of cactus, you know, that'd be more thrilling.

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I could think of all these things. My wife's staring at me. What happened in, uh, well, uh,

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Las Vegas, I didn't shoot the speakers. I went after the performers. Didn't shoot the what?

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The Country Western Festival, wasn't it? The, the shooting of the, whatever it was a couple of months ago. Yeah. My first thought was if you don't like the music, go after the speakers, not the people at the event.

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I do not. In all seriousness, I don't like the music. I do not comprehend how anybody could like Country Western.

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It, oh, it just is torture for me would be in a jail cell with that playing.

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I would say the same thing with groups like Korn, you know? No, no, that's soothing, Korn is soothing.

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No, no, it is. That is not soothing. That's anything but soothing. It's soothing to me.

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What was it, Rick? It's soothing if you're on speed. No, it has to do with the bass sound.

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It's, it's, it's calming. It's like, uh, when you give certain, was it, uh, give amphetamines to, or a certain kind, you know, to people, young boys with autism, it has the opposite effect calming them down.

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Yeah, that's like, it's like that. Yeah. You give, you give things like Ritalin to certain people, like, like coffee will calm me down.

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Coffee will make me tired. I drink it anyway. But things that should make me tired, get me wider, get me wired.

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So, you know, so you probably have something too. Oh, I, I think that's the way it goes.

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The proof that I'm messed up is I'm friends with you. Um, that's true. That's true. You're staying friends too.

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And you buy me lunches and stuff. So you got lots of mental problems. So let's, uh, let me take some questions from apologetics live.

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And Andrew, if you, if you think of some more questions or comments, you know, feel free to just put it in the chat and we'll, we'll jump back to you.

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Um, Matt, one of the questions that came in, a lot of people were asking for answers. What are some of the arguments against annihilationism?

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I mean, you did just put up about 180 articles. Yeah. There's a few arguments you have.

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Well, for one thing, it's not an easy thing to answer, but, um, here's what

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I'll do. Uh, get back into that and move this over there. No, I'll go over here.

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Yeah, I'll move this there. I'm going to get the window going. Come on.

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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hit it. There we go. All right. Uh, what I'm going to do is go to, for example,

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Jude six and seven. And, um, it says, uh, an angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode.

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He has kept an eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. He has kept.

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It's a perfect tense with it, which means it's, it's, um, it is an action that's going from the past into the present as continuing just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them.

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Since they, in the same way as those, as those indulged, that's past tense in gross immorality and went past tense after strange flood are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

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Now there's basically a Greek rule kind of a thing. Now it says are exhibited that's in the present tense.

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And it says, as an example, undergoing, and that is, um, what's called a present participle.

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A present participle is an I N G word, a walking, talking. So when it says they are exhibited, that means they're, they, in a present tense are being exhibited and, but it's not a participle where it says are exhibited, but the undergoing is a participle.

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The participial form takes its tense from the verb, um, ahead of it.

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So when it's, if it says had been exhibited, then it would be a pluperfect and undergoing would have been a completed action in the past, but because it's present tense are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire, the undergoing is a present participle and it borrows its time reference location from our exhibit, which is present tense.

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In other words, this is saying that the people are presently undergoing the punishment of eternal fire presently.

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Now it says eternal fire. Now, well, before I get into that, uh, presently undergoing, that means that they're conscious.

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Now, a lot of annihilationists hold to what's called soul sleep. Soul sleep is to me, it's, it's kind of dumb because soul sleep is not something that they understand what it is.

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It's just, it's unconsciousness. Really? I could talk about soul sleep for a while, but you know, what is it?

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Um, is it unconsciousness? Is it non -existence? Is it consciousness without activity, with activity? And there's some issues that are related to that, but they really don't know.

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They just say it's, it's unconsciousness. That's what they say. Soul sleep. You're con, you're, you exist, but you're just not aware of anything.

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Okay. That's what they say. Where's that in scripture? You know, it's in the book of second moronical.

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So that's where it is. But at any rate, has undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Now there's only, uh, a few places where this kind of phraseology of eternal fire works, but let me just say that when it says eternal fire, what they interpret it to be is the fire that's eternal is eternal because God is eternal.

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And that's why the fire is eternal. It's really talking about God's nature. It's not really about the fire. That's being eternal, but God is the eternal consuming fire.

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So therefore the fire is called eternal. So what they're doing is reading into the text to make it say the opposite of what it actually says.

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It says they are presently exhibit. It says actually they are exhibited presently now as an example in undergoing present tense, the punishment of eternal fire.

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The eternal fire there is the fire that is eternal and they're undergoing punishment in it.

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Now, if the eternal fire is eternal without end, and they're undergoing the punishment of it, then their punishment will be without end.

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Annihilationism is false. Simple. That's just one of the verses. All right.

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Another question that we got from the Apologetics Live group is, can you explain and defend limited atonement?

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Yes. Limited atonement is a teaching that Jesus only legally bore the actual sin of the elect and not everybody who ever lived.

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Sin is breaking the law of God, 1 John 3, 4. And Jesus equated sin with legal debt when he said in Matthew 6, 12, our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, forgive us our debts.

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And in the parallel in Luke 11, 12, he said, forgive us our sins. And the word debt is aphilema.

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The word sin is hamartia. And so Jesus is equating legal debt with sin or sin with legal debt.

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Now, on the cross, John 19, 30, Jesus says it is finished. That phrase or the word, it's a single word in Greek, is tetelestai.

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Tetelestai is a legal statement and it has been found on the bottom of ancient tax receipts signifying a legal debt that's been paid in full on tax receipts.

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You know, tetelestai, it's been legally paid. Jesus says it is finished. What he was doing was fulfilling the law,

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I mean, Matthew 5, and fulfilling everything that was necessary in order for the atonement to be proper. And so he did all of this stuff and he bore our sin in his body on the cross.

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Now, that's 1 Peter 2, 24. How does God bear our sin? What does it mean to bear it?

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If sin is a transferable debt, then he can have it imputed to him or transferred to him.

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And before I go to Colossians 2, 14, I'll give you a little analogy. Sin is a legal debt.

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And when we break the law of God, we've incurred a debt against God. And so this is an illustration of something.

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There's a man who pays his mortgage. He goes to the bank once a month. He takes his car and he goes there and he likes the procedure and he just does it.

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It's just one of his things. On the way to the bank, this one particular time, he gets in a very bad car accident, ends up in a coma in the hospital.

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And a philanthropist hears about this guy's plight and pays off his entire mortgage of his house, goes into the bank and pays it off.

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Now, the question is, is it paid off? Yes, it is. Does the legal debt for the man in the coma,

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I call him a coma man, does coma man or is the legal debt for the coma man regarding the mortgage, does it exist anymore?

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No, it does not. Can he be held responsible for it? No, he cannot. Is he aware of it? No, he's not.

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The legality of the payment is not dependent upon the awareness or the acceptance by the person upon whom the debt is paid.

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I'll come back to that in a sec. So, coma man wakes up and he goes to the bank, miraculous recovery, and hands a check to the teller.

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The teller says, hey, your mortgage is paid off. Well, who did it? Can't tell you, it's anonymous.

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Well, I don't like that. Too bad. Well, I pay my own debts. No, you can't. There's no debt here to pay. Well, I don't care.

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It's canceled. Well, I don't care if it's canceled. Here, take my check. Can't. There's no debt upon which this man could be held responsible.

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Whether he accepts it, likes it, is irrelevant. Sin debt. Now, Jesus says in Colossians 2 .13,

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having forgiven us all our transgressions. And then in verse 14, he says, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was hostile to us, he took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

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The certificate of debt in Greek is a single Greek word, kairagraphon, and it means a handwritten

27:46

IOU of legal indebtedness. So this word kairagraphon only occurs right there in the entire

27:52

Bible, right there, once, just once. And therefore, it's a hapexlegomena, a word that occurs only once in a body of text.

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So Jesus canceled out the certificate of debt. What debt? The sin debt. When did he cancel it?

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As the text says, at the cross. It's not canceled when you believe. Not canceled when you believe.

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It's canceled at the cross. That's what the text says. Now, people can not like it, but they don't have to like it.

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Now, when I ask people, was it canceled at the cross? Or I ask them, when's it canceled? Most people say, when you believe.

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Let's go through the text again. Maybe I'll put the text in so people can see it. But the

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Bible says specifically that the sin debt, or that we can go to the sin debt or the law, either way it works, it's fine.

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But it's what it says in Colossians 2 .14. Here we go. Having canceled out the certificate of debt, consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us, he's taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

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So when was it taken out of the way? When was it canceled? At the cross. It's not when you believe. Now, here's a question.

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Who was it canceled for? Everybody who ever lived? If it was canceled for everybody who ever lived, then nobody could go to hell.

29:06

People then would say, well, but you got to accept it. No, you don't. You don't have to accept it. You accept it or not, it doesn't make any difference.

29:13

Because if there's no sin debt for you, period, accept it or not is irrelevant.

29:19

There's no sin debt. You can't go to hell whether you accept this payment or not. The accepting it doesn't make it valid.

29:25

The accepting it doesn't make it real. The accepting it doesn't make it actual. What makes it actual is the blood of Christ that actually cancels our sin debt on the cross,

29:34

Colossians 2 .14. And so if someone were to say that Jesus actually canceled the certificate of debt on the cross, and yet they go to hell, then they're accusing

29:42

God of unrighteousness because they're saying that Jesus paid all the sin debt, it's canceled, there is no sin debt against anybody, and yet people go to hell anyway.

29:50

That's not righteous. That's not righteous. That would be accusing God of unrighteousness.

29:56

We can't have that. So since the sin debt's canceled at the cross, then who is it canceled for?

30:02

Everybody who ever lived? Obviously not. It can't be canceled for everybody who ever lived. It can only be canceled for those whom

30:08

God imputed our sin to Christ, and he bore our sin in his body on the cross, and he died with it.

30:15

Now, some people will come back and say, man, he died for the whole world. Where's that? Oh, John 3 .16, God loved the world. He gave his only begotten son.

30:21

Yes, he loved the world. What does the word world mean? You go to Matthew 15 .24, Jesus says he was not sent to the whole world.

30:27

He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Jews always understood that the Messiah was coming only for Israel, not for the whole world, all the nations.

30:37

But John 3 .16, we have better knowledge, better understanding. Jesus says God so loved the world, all the nation groups, all the people groups, and everything else.

30:46

And we also know that, I mean, people also go to 1 John 2 .2, he's a propitiation not only for our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

30:54

See, there's the word world again. That's what it's talking about. A propitiation is actually the sacrifice that turns away wrath.

31:00

It doesn't make it possible. It actually accomplishes it. If they want to say that the whole world is propitiated, then it means that the whole world has no sin dead and held against it.

31:10

1 John 2 .2 actually is support for limited atonement, not universal atonement. Finally, I ask people, when have you died?

31:18

Have you died? You know, most Christians will say yes, or some say no. They understand that we've died with Christ, Romans 6 .8.

31:25

We're crucified with Christ, Romans 6 .6. We have died to sin, Romans 6 .1. And Romans 7 .4,

31:32

for example, 1 through 4. You can go to Colossians 3, 1 through 5, and it talks about those who have died to the world.

31:39

We know that the Bible teaches that only Christians have died to sin, died to the world, died to their selves and things like that, because only the

31:47

Christians have died with Christ. 1 Corinthians 15 .22 says, in Adam all die, in Christ all shall be made alive.

31:56

Now, an interesting verse is Romans 5 .18, which says, in the NSV, the only correctly translated version on that, and I can go into that if you guys want.

32:03

But in Romans 5 .18, it says, through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all people. So also through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

32:15

Now, wait a minute. How can you have justification, which means you're saved? How can you have justification resulting to all men?

32:23

Well, I misquoted it earlier. It's not all people in the first part of the verse. It's all men. But it means justification of all men.

32:33

You can't have all people be justified. So the other translations, they soften it because they don't understand biblical theology in that area.

32:40

But nevertheless, so my final verse here to bring this up and hopefully lasso this cow and bring it down, is that you go to Colossians, excuse me, 2

32:51

Corinthians 5 .14. The love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died.

33:01

Now, since we know that the Bible says the only ones who died with Christ are the Christians, the believers, we never find any place in Scripture where it says the unbelievers have died with Christ or died to sin, etc.

33:12

He died for all, therefore all died. Who's the all who died? The all who died are only the elect, who were represented by Christ because he was their federal head,

33:22

Romans 7, 7 through 12 or 10, actually. First Corinthians 15 .22,

33:29

Romans 5 .18 talk about his federal headship aspect, his relationship, and we were represented by him.

33:36

So anyway, limited atonement is a necessary doctrine of truth when you understand the carious substitutionary atonement of Christ out of Isaiah 53, 4 through 6, where he bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1

33:50

Peter 2 .24. Sin is a legal debt that's transferred. It was imputed to him, 1

33:55

Peter 2 .24. When he became sin, 2 Corinthians 5 .17 and 21, and finished the atonement on the cross,

34:06

John 19 .30, when he said, it is finished. Since Jesus equated sin with debt, and our

34:12

Father who art in heaven, forgive us our sins, forgive us our debts, Luke 11 .4

34:19

and Matthew 6 .12, respectively. It makes sense then to say that Jesus only canceled the sin debt of the elect.

34:29

Not everybody ever lived, otherwise we'd have universalism. There you go. All right.

34:36

So, Vincent has a question. And this picture,

34:41

Madge, just to show you that I can't get dressed up here. Finally, for once in your life, you look good.

34:49

Yeah, now that one looks a little bit better. I'm not looking like, as I was told. I was told in this picture that I look like a

34:55

Mosfioso. Yeah, you do. You're pointing to a guy to have a hit run on him.

35:02

Yeah, actually, it was kind of interesting. I was told that someone said that my entire family looks like the

35:09

Mafia. And I was like, well, yeah, that is part of our family. But Vincent had a thing.

35:17

Vincent, you had it in chat. Why don't you just go ahead and ask? I had it in chat? Yeah, you put a son in chat about the church is true.

35:26

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm just saying biblical truth that the church is the true Israel. The church is true

35:33

Israel. OK, I thought maybe you had a question there. Well, it kind of was just going on what

35:40

Matt was saying. OK, do you have any questions for Matt since you came in? Give me a minute.

35:47

All right. Well, while you come up with yours and folks who want to join, you can go to apologeticslive .com.

35:54

The link is there. It says click here to join. Another question we got for you,

36:00

Matt, is and I'm not sure if this is so much a question or a statement, but and I'll read it as it says it.

36:08

Showing guaranteed healing is now not the in the atonement of Christ or other ways to reach people that believe the prosperity gospel.

36:22

I think the question I think what they're trying to say is is since guarantee of healing is not proof of atonement of Christ.

36:35

Is there other ways to reach people that believe in the prosperity gospel movement? Tell me. One of the things you can do is go to Matthew 8, 17.

36:43

A lot of people don't know about this verse, Matthew 8, 17. I'll read a little bit ahead of it.

36:49

The context of verse 15, he touched her hand and the fever left her and she got up and waited on him.

36:55

This is before he's crucified. When evening came, they brought to him many who were demon possessed and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were ill.

37:04

This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet. He himself took our affirmaties and carried away our diseases.

37:12

And what they usually say is this happened in the atonement. But right there in Matthew 8, 17, it demonstrates that it happened before the atonement.

37:21

So it's not a guaranteed thing in the atonement. So they got that wrong. And another verse that really sticks in their craw is

37:29

Exodus 4, 10. Then Moses said to the Lord, Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since you have spoken to your servant, for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.

37:44

The Lord said to him, Who has made man's mouth or who makes him mute or deaf or seeing or blind?

37:52

Is it not I, the Lord? So that's a monkey wrench in the prosperity gospel.

38:02

You throw it out there, theological gearings, and you hear it go, and then they just panic trying to figure out how to make sense of it.

38:10

But those are just two of the verses. Otherwise, I don't have memorized where Paul left people sick.

38:16

Jesus didn't heal people because of their lack of faith and things like this. Then we can get into some other issues. But those are just some of the verses you can go to and witness to them.

38:26

So prosperity gospel, for most folks who are familiar with it, but I know that you have spoken out against this quite a bit.

38:37

Why do you think that the prosperity gospel and its offshoots are such a dangerous thing to Christianity?

38:45

Because it's humanism, self -centeredism, diparinianism. It's a hammock theology.

38:53

In a hammock, you sit and relax. You don't do anything. You're to be catered to. This is the idea that is unfortunately very prominent in America, because in America, we have so many amenities and privileges that we're used to being comforted.

39:13

And so we gather to ourselves teachers that tickle our ears and tell us what we want to hear. And what we want to hear is,

39:20

I'm healthy, wealthy, good looking, really smart. I'm going to live forever. And I deserve a new car. And people like to hear that.

39:26

So they go. And along with that is a shift from other -centeredness to self -centeredness.

39:35

And instead of carrying out the gospel and working for that and living for the gospel message, then what happens is the prosperity gospel is the thing that is preached.

39:46

And that the cross saves you from your sins. But did you also know that you get wealth and health? And that becomes a gospel.

39:53

So the prosperity gospel supplants the true gospel. Not in every case, because people are different.

40:01

And some people will preach a true gospel, but it has that problem. So I know a guy who is in Redding, California, and there's

40:08

Bethel church out there. And so a friend of mine and I went out there last year, here two years ago to do a bit of research.

40:20

And anyway, this guy was telling me, I won't say who he is, but he was telling me that some of the evangelist -trained youth,

40:30

I'm not talking 12 -year -olds, we're talking early 20s, that kind of range, 20 -somethings. And that they were preaching the gospel, and to receive

40:42

Christ, ask him in your heart. And this guy said, what does it mean?

40:47

What is the gospel? What's the biblical definition of the gospel? And they didn't know. But they were preaching what's supposed to be healthy, and wealthy, and successful.

40:55

And you want a prayer, you want a healing, is that what you want, a healing and stuff?

41:01

So it was like that, it was problematic. And it still is. And what ends up happening is it,

41:06

I think, takes the focus off of Christ and puts it on to Delph, which is a big problem.

41:12

Yeah, it does. Yes, it does. So we got, before we go, there's someone that's physio,

41:22

I think I'm saying, right, physio -atheist. Before we get to him, Matt, let's take a word, or give a word for our sponsor,

41:29

MyPillow. You and I both enjoy these pillows. Oh yeah, yeah.

41:35

And we just actually got one of our listeners who went out, and well, we have two listeners that went out and got it, and wasn't sure, didn't believe me, that is it really that good?

41:47

And after one night of sleep, he sent me a text and said, yes, it really is that good.

41:55

I mean, I love MyPillow. I do too. I love it.

42:02

When I go travel, I take it with me. I said, they're not paying us for this. I mean, I'm not getting any money out of it.

42:08

I don't have a car, but I don't know, whatever. I just like the pillow. It's good stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so the thing is, is that what we end up seeing is,

42:15

I travel with it, you travel with it. It is a great pillow, especially if you're a type of person who does have issues with sleep.

42:27

It's great. Someone's saying, I wish I could afford a MyPillow. There is a way to get some discounts, and one is to use the number that we have, so that you can get a discount.

42:39

And they have some where you can get a couple of them. I don't know if they're still doing the sale where you can get four for the price of two.

42:47

But if you want to get a MyPillow, you can call 1 -800 -944 -5396.

42:56

That's 1 -800 -944 -5396 and get a

43:03

MyPillow. And you will agree with Matt and I that your sleep will be different.

43:09

It will improve your sleep. So I'm going to bring in, I think he's, he or she's name is

43:16

Physio, or at least it's hard for me to read from that distance, Physio Atheist. So you're here if you want to unmute and ask whatever question you have.

43:29

Uh, sure. Can you hear me? Yeah. Oh, perfect.

43:36

Okay. I don't know if there's a delay, if you have a delay there or something.

43:44

If you're trying to listen on, if you're trying to listen to it on YouTube, there's going to be a delay.

43:50

So you want to listen to it just right here. But we can hear you.

43:59

You know what, I'm going to, sorry, this would be so a little bit rude. I'm going to use a restroom and unmute. I'll be listening. Oh, no, don't.

44:05

No, yeah. I've been waiting. But, uh, so I'm going to get in.

44:12

I know, but I'm going to get in. I had a lot to drink right before I got on. It's a lot of liquid.

44:19

So, uh, I had a big, I juiced a big pineapple today and I was drinking it. So at any rate, just keep talking.

44:24

I'll, I'll hear you. Okay. So professional.

44:32

Look, look, Matt Slick has been raptured. Look, we can see an empty chair. He didn't leave his clothes behind.

44:42

So we can't, well, that's probably good. That's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Physio, you have a, you have a question.

44:48

Can you, I don't know if you're having technical issues. If, if you are, maybe leave a note in chat.

44:55

And we asked the question there. We heard you before. Yeah. Something happened.

45:06

All right. All right. Then I will add in a physio. If you get that worked out, uh, let us know he dropped out.

45:15

So he's probably going to come back in. We'll come back to him. And I added Edison, um, into the hangout.

45:22

So Edison, you can unmute yourself and, uh, ask whichever questions you may have tonight.

45:30

You have to actually unmute. I wonder if I can unmute you.

45:39

Let's see. I could try to unmute you. I guess

45:48

I can't. Edison, if you can unmute yourself.

45:55

All right. Can you hear me? Yes. Uh, yes, sir.

46:00

Hi, it's me. Um, I'm your friend from the Philippines, Cebu. Oh, did we meet in the

46:06

Philippines? No, no. I was, uh, calling your show, I think last November too.

46:12

Okay. Okay. Or yeah. Oh, November one. That was November one.

46:18

I'm sorry. All right. Yeah. Actually, um, I was, uh, a former

46:24

KJV only, um, you call that, I don't know, fundamentalist

46:30

Baptist. Um, but I have, um, already, um, come to the reform faith.

46:36

Um, I have thankful for people like John Piper, um, and John MacArthur as well.

46:43

And of course you are one of my best resource in terms of, um, apologetics because these guys are only good for, um, um, enlightenment or clarifying things, but they're not good in defending the faith.

46:58

Um, they're good in exhortation and encouraging, but, uh, your materials are very good in terms of, um, defending the faith.

47:06

I do, however, have a question, uh, brother Matt, if you don't mind. Sure. Yes, sir. Um, I have a friend, uh, a

47:12

KJV only friend and he, of course they're anti -Calvinist and, uh, I quoted him because he doesn't believe on, um, election and predestination.

47:24

So I quoted him Ephesians chapter one, verse number, of course, verse number four.

47:32

And it says here, according as he had chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless without spot.

47:40

So it says here in verse five as well, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ or by Christ Jesus.

47:48

He contested that, that he said that these letter, um, from verse one, all the way up to verse 13, this is not intended for the

47:58

Gentiles or for the Ephesian churches. He said, this is only for the

48:03

Ephesian, I know for the Jewish people, because he said that there's a transition in verse number,

48:10

I think that's verse number 12. No, no. Verse number 13, it says here in whom ye also trusted.

48:19

So this is now referring to the Ephesian believers. So also trusted that's in verse 13.

48:27

He said that from verse one to verse 12, it was referring to the apostles and not

48:32

Ephesians. I told him that's a violation of a, um, writing an epistle because all an apostle of Jesus Christ to the

48:45

Ephesians or to the Ephesians, how could it be to the 12 apostles? And, you know, he's kind of a, he's a little bit, um, sticking on the verse 13 that says ye also trusted.

48:55

I'd like to hear what your comment on that, please. And thank you and God bless your ministry brother. Oh, it's, you said a lot.

49:02

So I'm not exactly sure what the question is. Um, so it was so much, he said this and that, and then this verse and that verse.

49:11

So, uh, it was, I'm sorry.

49:17

I said, I'm sorry. That's okay. I understand the gist. You mean one verse at a time and say, he says this about that verse.

49:24

And then let's do it that way. Yes, sir. Um, he said that, um, verse one, all the way up to verse 12 of Ephesians chapter one does not apply to the

49:38

Gentiles or even the Ephesians. Okay. So it doesn't apply to Gentiles. So then, then just to look at it, uh, you were dead in your trespasses and sins that that doesn't apply to the

49:49

Gentiles. Are you formally walking the course of the world at the power there that does not, uh, apply to the

49:56

Gentiles. I just, you know, I asked him, this doesn't apply to them. He's going to have to say this because he's going to want to deny, um, deny, uh, verse various things.

50:07

Yeah. I'm thinking ahead, but, um, so in his great love, which he loved us, who's the us.

50:13

Cause, uh, you know, that's, that's Paul talking.

50:18

So he's going to say, it's not the Gentiles. Is that what he's going to say there? Okay. Okay. Then I would go and I'd say, well, about Ephesians 2, 8, 9, you're saved by grace through faith.

50:28

Does that apply to us? Let's ask questions and see what he says, because if it does apply there, you know, and Ephesians 2, 8, 9 is by grace that we're saved.

50:39

Um, is it not the same grace that, uh, in verse five Ephesians 1, 5, even when we were dead in our trespasses, transgressions made us alive together with grace, uh, with Christ by grace, you have been saved.

50:50

So if one through 12 is not about the Gentiles, but the other verses are

50:57

Ephesians 2, 8, 9, then why is the same phraseology used of both? And I would just ask him to see what he says.

51:05

And he says, he raised us up with him and seated us up with the right hand. Now he's saying, this is not about the

51:10

Gentiles, right? This first section of scripture is not. Okay. Okay. So the ages have come, not both of works.

51:17

Remember you were formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh or circumcised. So he said, it's not about the

51:23

Gentiles, but verse 11 says you, the Gentiles in the flesh. So maybe you should do that advanced apologetic, uh, thing technique where you slap them upside their head.

51:39

Says right there. Uh, therefore remember that you formerly, formerly you, the

51:46

Gentiles in the flesh were formerly called, you know, so that if he's, if he's saying is one through 12 is not about the

51:53

Gentiles, I mean that right there refutes it. So by looking at a text. Yeah.

51:59

Uh, actually he was referring to Ephesians chapter one, verse one to 12, uh, doesn't apply to the

52:05

Gentiles. Verse 11 says you, the Gentiles. He's wrong.

52:14

Uh, because it says in verse one, are you there?

52:25

Uh, yes, sir. Uh, it seems that there's a, there's a bad reception in my end.

52:30

That's okay. That's okay. No problem. But it does, you know, since he says one through 12, well, verse 11 speaks, says he's talking to the

52:40

Gentiles. He says, remember, therefore, remember that formerly you, the Gentile, that's who he's talking to the whole time. So it's about the

52:46

Gentiles. So, I mean, it just by reading through it. So he's, he's wrong there. If you really want to get this guy to go to Colossians 2, 14.

52:58

Okay. Colossians 2, 14 is really a problem, uh, for these guys because of what it says.

53:06

Um, it says Jesus, you know, talking about Jesus, having canceled the certificate of debt.

53:11

I'm looking for my King James version here on my computer. I, I, uh, redid my computer.

53:18

Go to karm .org and, uh, there's a whole King James there. Yeah, that's true.

53:24

I know, but why can I find it so easily? I have to do it this way. Anyway. So, uh, it says he canceled the certificate of debts.

53:31

Uh, what you have to ask him is what is the certificate of debt? Uh, I think in the

53:37

King James, it says, um, the handwriting of ordinances, I think is what it says in Colossians 2, 14.

53:42

Is that what it says? Yes. Blotting out the handwritings of the ordinances.

53:48

Okay. There we go. King James. I got it. So, uh, beware, uh,

53:55

Colossians 2, 14. To look at verse 13, though, uh, he hath quickened together with him, having forgiven you all, uh, forgiven you all trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

54:07

Uh, there's up against us and ask him, what is the handwriting of ordinances? That's against us, which is contrary to us.

54:14

Um, there's only two possibilities. One is the sin debt. The other is the law itself.

54:25

Now, if it's the sin debt, then you ask him, when is it canceled?

54:31

When is it blotted out? And the verse says at the cross, you have to ask him who it's blotted out for everybody.

54:39

Because if it's blotted out for everybody, then nobody can go to hell because there is no sin debt. Okay. Period.

54:47

If he says the handwriting of ordinances means the law, and you go to Romans 5, 13, for until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

55:00

So if the handwriting of ordinances is the law and Jesus canceled at the cross, then there is no law and sin cannot be imputed.

55:10

Sin cannot be reckoned to the unbeliever. Either way, he can't get out of this.

55:17

And the point is that it only makes sense if he canceled it for the ones that are chosen by God in Ephesians 1, 4, and 5.

55:26

Plus, but if you're writing this down, but you can go to John 6, 37.

55:33

I'll read it in the King James, all that the father hath or giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me,

55:39

I will in no wise cast out for, um, and this was says all that the father giveth me all.

55:45

He says, Oh man. Oh, I actually hit my speech program on and it made it go.

55:50

Hold on. John 6, 37, all that the father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me will in no wise cast out for I've come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

56:02

This is the will of the father of the father's will, which hath sent me that of all which he hath given me,

56:09

I should lose nothing. And you can ask him, who's the all who are given to Jesus. By the father,

56:17

I don't know if you're following this, but yes, I follow. Who's the all.

56:23

And he's going to have to say something like, well, the ones who believe great. So he won't lose any, right.

56:29

They can't lose their salvation either. Can they? Because if he says I'll lose nothing so that, you know, so you can see how the combination of much of this stuff, he's going to be swimming backwards because King James only as legalists.

56:41

And I've not known any of them who believe in eternal security. It doesn't mean they don't exist. I just haven't known any.

56:47

So yeah, it's a very good. Yeah, it is. It is.

56:52

The Colossians actually is a good defense for limited atonement.

56:59

Oh, it is very good. Yeah, it is a very powerful verse.

57:04

Yes, I use it all the time. It's my favorite verse. In my opinion, Colossians 2 14 proves limited atonement and unconditional election and perseverance of the saints.

57:16

Three out of the five, in my opinion. And Matt, why don't you go through and explain why, how it does all those three?

57:25

Well, limited atonement, I just explained because it only makes sense to cancel the sin debt or cancel the law for people.

57:31

Either way, you can't have sin imputed to you, period, it's gone. So it could not be that it's for everybody because people go to hell.

57:39

Mark 3 29, Matthew 25 46, Revelation 4 11. We know people go to hell.

57:44

So it cannot be logically that he canceled the sin debt for everybody who ever lived, hence limited atonement.

57:52

Unconditional election means that Jesus canceled the sin debt for a group of people. The ones that were given to him by the

57:57

Father, obviously, John 6. But in there, it's not for everybody. Well, then who's it for? It's obviously not for everybody.

58:03

So who's the not for everybody? It's the ones that God has chosen to atone them for because he didn't do it for everybody.

58:10

So he did specifically for a small group. And then perseverance of the saints, because if your sin debts cancel at the cross, then all of your sins cancel at the cross.

58:21

You can't lose your salvation because the sin debt doesn't exist anymore. You can't go to hell. So you see?

58:27

Yes, yes. It's a definite atonement to those who are elect. I'm sorry, what?

58:35

It's a definite atonement to those who are chosen. Yes, definite atonement.

58:41

That's right. It makes perfect sense. And I could go on and go through more, but I think that's good enough.

58:47

I mean, there's just a lot of stuff there. And I have on Amazon, it doesn't work very well on Kindle.

58:55

But a file, I got a Kindle Isaac. There's too much outline, so it's just not going to work. It's too small to reformat the whole thing.

59:02

Anyway, we have a whole bunch of notes on Calvinism there. And I have another website called Calvinist Corner. And you can go there and check things out.

59:12

All right. Well, yes, sir. Well, it's been nice talking to you, Brother Matt. And God bless you with your ministry together with Karm .org.

59:21

God bless the people that are working with you. And you have a nice day, okay? Hey, Edison, before you take off, let me give you a date.

59:28

Let me give you a date, May 28th. In May 28th, both myself and Justin Peters will be in Cebu for a seminar that we're doing.

59:39

We're basically dealing with some of the false teachers and things like that.

59:45

I don't know if you're familiar with Justin Peters, but he and I will both be. We're going to Manila for a week conference.

59:52

And then we're coming into Cebu. I believe it's the 28th is the conference.

59:57

It may start actually on the 27th. So stay tuned here. And as we get more of the details,

01:00:03

I'll let you know. It would be great to meet you when we're out at Cebu. Yes. Yes, sir.

01:00:08

I'll be keeping in tune. And I also I'm listening to your podcast, the audio version of this program.

01:00:16

And that's a good plug. I should mention that because I don't know. I forget to mention that this show that we do becomes a podcast that you can search for Apologetics Live.

01:00:27

I'll give you a couple of podcasts folks should be listening to. One is you could do a search for either

01:00:32

Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, or you could just search for Matt Slick. That'll get you the Matt Slick live show that Matt does every

01:00:41

Monday through Friday. He does a live one hour show answering questions, a call -in show.

01:00:48

Apologetics Live is this one here. That'll be a part. That's part of the Christian podcast community.

01:00:53

And then my podcast, The Rap Report, my last name, Rap Report. It's not about rap music, but this week it will be actually.

01:01:02

This Sunday, we'll talk about rap music. Actually, the dailies, we've been going through the book of Jude, looking at false teachers.

01:01:10

How do I identify false teachers like Matt Slick? And actually, that wouldn't be because one of the points of a false teacher is you can always see that they focus on money and trying to make money for themselves.

01:01:26

And anyone that knows Matt knows he's just broke all the time. And it's not because he's buying other people dinner.

01:01:34

Yeah. I got to work it. What's your name?

01:01:41

Edison. I put a couple of paragraphs in from notes on limited atonement and penal substitutionary atonement so you can check it out.

01:01:51

Are those links from Carmette? No, those are from my outlines on Calvinism.

01:01:58

Okay, so that is something that people can get on Amazon to get that book, your notes on Calvinism.

01:02:06

Actually, that's hard copy too, not just Kindle, right? Yeah, the Kindle was not very good because there's so many, the whole thing is just outlines.

01:02:15

That's how I do my notes when I prepare for debates and stuff, just go quick to it. And so these notes are 83 pages long, 40 ,000 words.

01:02:26

So it doesn't fit on Kindle because you have all the indentation.

01:02:32

I don't know what I'm going to do about that. But anyway, people know, but you can order it and it's in English, of course, and a lot of stuff.

01:02:39

And I'm working on the version too. It'll be ready in a couple, three years, just as I slowly add stuff even more.

01:02:47

So a lot of stuff, man. So Edison, I do hope to see you in May. Then when

01:02:53

I'm in your neck of the woods, I'll be a lot closer. Yeah, I'll be looking forward to that and hope to see you here.

01:03:03

The final see you guys. I've been reading your articles in Calm .org and listening to your podcast.

01:03:12

Good, man. Good. I'll drop all the permissioning and you guys, you have a nice day.

01:03:23

Okay. Okay, Edison. All right. So John or Vincent, I don't know if you guys had a question or anything for Andrew.

01:03:34

Yeah, I'll let Andrew ask it. If not, I do have something I wanted to bring up as far as from earlier.

01:03:44

I posted on the about the Mormons and all that plug there.

01:03:56

I've been reading this. Dealing with the Mormon Church and just reading alone, just the outline.

01:04:05

Well, not the outline, but the introduction of the Book of Mormon and just trying to figure out some of the inconsistencies that Joseph Smith made.

01:04:24

And I'm just blown away at how some people just take his word for what he says.

01:04:32

But I was reading several articles concerning about this and just how there's so many

01:04:39

Mormons out there right now that are confused and misled by a lot of even just some of the stuff that even the

01:04:47

Mormon Church teaches where I saw this one description where they were showing pictures of Joseph Smith reading and studying and all that kind of stuff when it comes to deciphering all these paintings, these pictures of him deciphering and translating the

01:05:10

Book of Mormon from the hieroglyphics. And the funny thing is, is that all those images were completely false, whereas what he was really doing was looking through a hat with the cedar stone inside the hat or something.

01:05:29

And it was very odd how even Mormons were like, just like, oh, yeah,

01:05:35

I guess he looked through the hat for the cedar stone to point out just stuff like, well,

01:05:50

I mean, in the Book of Mormon, in the introduction of it, it says the book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation.

01:06:02

And I just thought that was a rather vague description of the original writers, and they don't have any kind of historical information or text or anything of who these people were.

01:06:18

And I just always kind of wondered, it's like, why aren't people figuring this out?

01:06:24

Why don't they just ask questions about this obvious problem that they have?

01:06:34

I'm always perplexed as to why they don't. You're Reformed, right?

01:06:40

Yeah, yeah. Got your answer. Yeah. Total depravity.

01:06:46

They're going to believe a lie. Well, let me bring up one of the things that John brought up, because it's kind of an interesting one.

01:06:54

And for folks who are listening on the audio podcast, John, you're referring to my book, What Do They Believe?

01:07:00

with the section on Mormonism. But you're bringing up the whole

01:07:06

Scroll of Abraham. Now, Matt, you're familiar with that.

01:07:11

Oh, yeah. So that's a really interesting one. Could you go into some detail what the

01:07:17

Scroll of Abraham was and why, now that we have a Rosetta Stone, why that's such a problem for Mormonism?

01:07:25

Yeah, I forgot exactly what year, but it was a few years before Joseph Smith was murdered, and he was murdered.

01:07:32

A traveling show was going through the area with Egyptian papyri, legitimate papyri, and Egyptian mummies for a nickel, whatever it would be.

01:07:41

You can come in and take a look at them inside of a tent and things like that. Well, Mormonism had already begun at that point.

01:07:48

And so Joseph Smith said, hey, these papyri are the Book of Abraham. So they paid, I think, around $2 ,000 to this guy and bought the

01:07:55

Book of Abraham papyri. And then Joseph Smith translated them with the same power he did the Book of Mormon by taking a seer stone, which is supposedly one of the stones from the

01:08:04

Urim and Thummim, the high priest of Israel. And you got to remember, Adam -ondi is, in other words, the

01:08:12

Garden of Eden is in Missouri, according to Mormonism. And so the high priest,

01:08:17

I don't know how they got over here with the stone out into New York area. But at any rate, so he would put the stone into a hat and put the hat around his face and then one letter at a time.

01:08:28

And he would say the letter translated to his assistant, Oliver Cowdery, who would then write it down one letter at a time.

01:08:35

And this is how the Book of Mormon was translated, supposedly, from the golden plates. And so Joseph Smith said that he translated the

01:08:44

Book of Abraham, these Egyptian papyri, by the exact same methodology. Well, the

01:08:50

Egyptian hieroglyphics had not been broken yet in the sense that they had not been deciphered. They didn't know.

01:08:57

How to read them until the Rosetta Stone in the 1880s, 1890s was discovered, had

01:09:03

Greek and something and hieroglyphics. And they were equal. So anyway, it gave them the clue and the linguists were able to break the code and understand hieroglyphics.

01:09:15

So then the Mormon church said, hey, and Mormons said, hey, we'll prove to you that the

01:09:20

Book of Abraham is really translated by the power of God. The problem was that the actual papyri that Joseph Smith had bought was lost.

01:09:30

So now there's no way to validate it. Well, in 1966 or 67, a papyri was discovered in a basement in a library, forgot where.

01:09:42

And it is the exact same papyri. The Mormon church admits it is. It has Joseph Smith's handwriting on the back.

01:09:49

I mean, it is. And so they translated, the Egyptologists translated it and discovered that it had absolutely nothing to do with what

01:10:00

Joseph Smith said it was. It was actually a Book of Breathings of the Dead. And he didn't even come close by guessing in what things meant.

01:10:13

And in some of the places in the papyri, there are pictures that were drawn on the original papyri.

01:10:18

And through decay, some of the areas of some of the pictures were, the drawings were gone.

01:10:25

So Joseph Smith filled them in. And the Egyptologists were able to recognize that it was filled in.

01:10:33

Well, that's not what, how it's really done. He got that wrong too. So the Mormon church responded by saying it's reformed hieroglyphics.

01:10:41

Reformed hieroglyphics is exactly the same as normal hieroglyphics. It just means something different.

01:10:48

And so there's no evidence of any reformed hieroglyphics. So they eventually kind of dropped that idea, took a few decades.

01:10:57

And now the prevailing theory is that the Book of Abraham was just, you know, it's just a motivation.

01:11:03

It was just a tool that God used to bring inspiration, et cetera, et cetera.

01:11:09

And so that's where they're at now. Basically, the Book of Abraham papyri proves that Joseph Smith lied, proves it, flat out proves it.

01:11:16

If you want more information on this, just go get the book, By Their Own Hands Upon Papyri.

01:11:23

I forgot who it's by. On Their Own Hands Upon Papyri. Or you can go to CARM and look up Book of Abraham papyri.

01:11:32

And I took that book and I condensed it into about four or six pages and just condensed it.

01:11:37

So you can just read through and you'll see the stuff. What's that link on that one again, Matt? Let me see if I can find it on CARM.

01:11:44

I'll find it. That would be good. Because I know I have had some LDS who will say that the

01:11:51

Rosetta Stone is wrong, that Joseph Smith, and this is what John was really saying, right?

01:11:57

They say Joseph Smith got it right. And it is all these Rosetta Stones that are wrong.

01:12:04

And the Rosetta Stone being that we have the hieroglyphics in other languages that we do know side by side in a parallel.

01:12:10

So we want people to compare them, but it's all the others that are wrong. Well, you know, back when

01:12:18

I was still in San Diego. Charlie gave, Charlie has, as usual, Charlie's.

01:12:23

He beat me. Yeah, he always does. Charlie Spine. He's good. If you go to CARM .org,

01:12:30

book -Abraham -papyri -and -Joseph -Smith.

01:12:37

So just search for Book of Abraham, papyri, and Joseph Smith, and you'll get it.

01:12:43

Yeah, so before I moved here, I was in San Diego, and I got a call from a woman, and she was a

01:12:56

Mormon, and we're talking, and she's very cautious, but she had called me, and I knew something was up.

01:13:04

So I was very patient, and she was feeling me out, so to speak, and she said,

01:13:10

I'm from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. I said, okay, and she paused, and she says,

01:13:17

I've been doing some studying. I go, okay, and she says, my habit is,

01:13:23

I'm fascinated with Egyptian hieroglyphics, and I went, uh -oh, here we go, and she said,

01:13:28

I've been studying it for 11 years now, and I knew what's going to happen. She says, I said,

01:13:34

Book of Abraham, right? She said, yeah, and just paused, and I said, so what do you think?

01:13:39

She said, he was wrong. I said, uh -huh, what are you going to do?

01:13:45

She goes, I don't know, and that was about the end of the conversation.

01:13:51

She kind of just dropped out. It was upsetting, and she found out that Joseph Smith lied.

01:14:00

So Matt, one of the things that, as Bill McKeever brings up a bunch, right, there are plenty of folks who end up, we see they find out the

01:14:11

Mormon church is wrong. Many of them actually turn to atheism instead of Christianity.

01:14:18

Why do you think that is? Because they trust their feelings. See, Mormonism is a religion of feelings, and I recommend that what

01:14:26

Christians do is let the Mormon missionaries come in your house, get them, give you a lesson, and just notice how they're going to say, how do you feel about this?

01:14:34

The feeling is very important, so what that means is truth, God's truth is subjected to your preferences.

01:14:40

And this is the deception, and this is the sin in it. Instead of trusting God's revealed word, inspired word, the

01:14:46

Bible, they're now trusting everything by feelings. No, it's the Holy Spirit giving you the feeling. How do you know?

01:14:52

Because you feel it's the Holy Spirit giving you the feeling. That's how you know, right? So it's just a problem, and so when they lose faith in their feelings, then emotionally they're done for, and it's a very difficult thing to come out of a cult and emotionally be devastated by it.

01:15:11

To protect yourself and heal emotionally, a lot of times you give up on everything and become atheistic in this sense.

01:15:18

And it happens a lot inside of Mormonism when they leave, and then we're finding that they start getting interested in God again after a couple, three, four years, and then they start looking and things like that.

01:15:29

A lot of them become, well, some become Christians. I actually want to do some work to try and reach out to those people in Mormonism who leave, and Lynn Wilder, I talked to her.

01:15:45

I don't know if you know who she is. She was an ex -BYU professor with tenure, and she and her husband and family were all

01:15:52

Mormons, and Adams Road is their group and stuff, their music group.

01:15:59

So I was talking to Lynn about all this, and I said, hey, when she was here at the house last year,

01:16:05

I said, what do you think about you and I writing a book? You know Mormonism from the feeling side inside.

01:16:12

I know the doctrine, and we could write something about those who are leaving Mormonism. And you get top billing,

01:16:18

I don't care. That doesn't matter to me, or I'll just help you. But wouldn't mind a mention or something like that.

01:16:25

But at any rate, maybe co -write something. She liked the idea, but she's been super busy, so we haven't gotten to do it yet.

01:16:32

But I think it's a good idea. You know, and you and I both have a chapter in the book,

01:16:38

Sharing the Good News with Mormons, which is a great book on evangelism to Mormons. In that book, your chapter deals with a topic that I love, right?

01:16:47

I have a chapter in my book on what do we believe on biblical reliability.

01:16:53

Why do you think it was so important to have a chapter on biblical reliability in a book about tactics on how to share the gospel with Mormons?

01:17:04

Because you have to base something on the truth. You need a standard. If you have a meter, yardstick, meter, yardstick, in order to measure something, if you don't trust the yardstick, so to speak, then you can't trust what any judgments come off by measurement.

01:17:19

And that's how it is. So what the enemy does is try and doubt God's word. Genesis 3, 1 -6 talks about that, where Satan said, did

01:17:27

God really say? Doubting God's word. So we have to defend the reliability and the accuracy of the word of God.

01:17:34

Because if we don't do that, it's just one more excuse for people to deny the truth of God's word as inspiration.

01:17:41

So in Mormonism, it says in History of the Church of Blindness 4, page 461, the

01:17:47

Book of Mormon is the most correct book of any on earth. Make it closer to the precepts of God by trusting it than by any other book.

01:17:53

So it supplants the Bible. And the Bible is correct insofar as it's correctly translated.

01:17:59

That's the eighth article of the Mormon Church. So they undermine the reliability of the scriptures so that they can put something else into it, the contradiction of God's word, and then the result is death.

01:18:12

In fact, what I find interesting when I talk about this very thing, a personal experience I had, and it's a very mild one.

01:18:18

But I was with my wife, we were shopping 15, 20 years ago, and I'm pushing the cart around. And I was thinking about all of this, about Mormonism and the fall, and how they say that the fall is necessary, and it's a fall upward, because with the fall, only then can we have the possibility, potential of exaltation.

01:18:40

And it occurred to me, this sentence just popped in my head, because they celebrated the fall, because that is what enables the plan of salvation and exaltation of Godhood to be possible.

01:18:55

And it occurred to me, only the ungodly celebrate sin.

01:19:03

And I was standing, sitting there, look at the cart going, it's just like a revelation for me, you know? It's like, only the ungodly celebrate sin.

01:19:10

And they were celebrating the fall. I wish they'd become gods. And it was just,

01:19:16

I said to my wife, go, Neek, listen, I just, and I told her, she's like, uh -huh, that's good.

01:19:23

That's really good. And I said, but you know, she goes, uh -huh. She's used to that from me about this.

01:19:28

Hey, I heard about this little thing, and she's like, uh -huh, until we're done. Pass me the Cheerios over there, okay?

01:19:37

Hey, so I want to go to a commercial right after that, Matt. Because we're talking

01:19:44

Mormonism things. You have a recent article that would play into this with, who are the children of God?

01:19:51

So right after this commercial, why don't we discuss that? Sure. So with Mormons, Matt, they often come up to this issue that we're all children of God.

01:20:32

You recently wrote an article on CARM asking the question, who are the children of God?

01:20:37

So let me ask that of you. Who are the children of God? Christians. Can you support that?

01:20:46

Yes. I love pulling teeth from Matt.

01:20:53

I'm going to come in here with a pair of pliers and just reach in. Oh, you want me to expound on that?

01:21:00

Oh, well, in that case. Yeah, I wrote an article, and if you guys are interested, you can check it out.

01:21:07

Hey, I beat Charlie. And the phrase children of God only occurs 10 times, at least in the

01:21:13

NASB. And I looked at every single instance, and it's really interesting. That's all. But when the

01:21:20

Mormons say children of God, they mean literally the children of God. Because in Mormonism, God is an exalted man from another planet.

01:21:27

And he brought one of his wives with him from that planet to this planet. She's a goddess. And he's about six feet tall.

01:21:34

They have genitalia. They go and make spirit babies in heaven. And then these spirit babies inhabit human bodies here on earth.

01:21:41

You become a god of your own planet kind of a thing. Super short version. So when they say we're the children of God, they mean literally

01:21:47

God and his wife. That's the technical term.

01:21:53

And actually, okay, so this might blow some people's minds who aren't familiar with Mormonism.

01:21:59

Mormonism teaches that God the Father was a man on another planet who sinned.

01:22:06

He was a sinful. They don't know if he did for sure. Yeah, well, many. I wouldn't admit it, but most probably.

01:22:14

Many of them will admit that they think he sinned, right? But he was a man on another planet who is very obedient to the laws of that God of that planet.

01:22:27

And therefore, he became a god of this planet. Now, they admit that Christ never sinned.

01:22:35

But there's a question whether God the Father sinned. That probably is going to blow some people's minds.

01:22:45

So let me ask you this one following with that, because so that's who are the children of God.

01:22:52

You recently also have an article on who are the sons of God in the Bible, and this one gets into some interesting things, especially if we look at Genesis six.

01:23:02

This is where it often comes up. So from your study of the sons of God, who are the sons of God in the

01:23:09

Bible? Can you expound on that? Now, you're learning. I was going to say,

01:23:15

I was going to say they're angels or people. Now you asked me to expound, so now I have to do more. So I did a search on Logos, which

01:23:25

I have now. Now I have Logos 8. So do I. Yeah, it's not bad. So I got to use a little bit.

01:23:33

Have you gotten used to the new notes in Logos yet? You're going to show me stuff. I just got it today.

01:23:38

Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's a whole new note system for folks who do want to get it. I'll put it in the show notes.

01:23:44

I'll put a link. You can get five free books from Striving for Eternity. Just go to bit .ly .com. I think it's

01:23:50

Logos S -F -E or S -F -E Logos. I forget which one, but bit .ly, B -I -T -L -Y dot com slash.

01:23:59

Let me go. Let me check it. Hold on. You don't have a webpage from Logos like Karim does?

01:24:06

Yeah, I do. And that's the one I just gave. Okay. The shortcut to it is bit .ly,

01:24:12

B -I -T -L -Y dot com slash

01:24:18

S -F -E Logos. Okay. Cool. You went to Logos.

01:24:24

Who are the sons of God? You said angels and Christians. Yeah, angels and people.

01:24:30

And the phrase occurs 10 times.

01:24:36

One, two. Yeah, 10 times. And Genesis 6 is talking about angels. And Job is talking about angels.

01:24:44

And in Matthew, Luke, Romans, and Galatians is talking about people. And so I got this article, and I'm sure

01:24:52

Charlie will beat me. Children of God, he did. What sons of God? Oh, no. No, he didn't.

01:24:58

Watch this. I'm going to beat him. He's, oh, did he already get it? Oh, no. Wait a minute.

01:25:05

I don't know. He's pretty good. Who were the sons? Who are the sons of God? And wait a minute.

01:25:11

Genesis. Oh, I see what he did. Anyway, so what I did was I wrote the article.

01:25:16

And because there weren't that many occurrences of the phrase, I just copied every single text, put it into a table so people can read it for themselves.

01:25:23

And they can see what the context is of each verse. And I just noticed something about linking.

01:25:30

Okay. I did notice, it is kind of interesting that in all of the Old Testament passages, you say it refers to angels.

01:25:38

And all the New Testament passages in the Greek, it seems to refer to people. I don't know if there's, so if we were to look at the

01:25:46

Genesis 6, which is, there's two verses in Genesis 6 that refer to it, three in Job.

01:25:55

At least in Job, it's clear that it's speaking of angels. Some people have questioned with the Genesis 6, it does seem in the

01:26:02

Hebrew, the other passages seem to refer to that. But we would see that it could refer to people, at least in the

01:26:08

Greek. In the New Testament, yes. But in Genesis 6, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and they took wives for themselves.

01:26:17

The sons of God. And there's a lot of, there's debate, the Sethite theory that it was actually the descendants of Mary and the

01:26:25

Canaanites and stuff like that. But I don't buy that. It's never what the church taught, never what the

01:26:31

Jews taught. It's always been that they understood it from day one, that it was fallen angels.

01:26:37

That's how the Jews always understood that text. I'm going to just go with that because that just makes far more sense since that's what it is.

01:26:43

And the Sethite theory didn't come about until the 1500s when it became criticized. Hey, let's make it another theory.

01:26:50

But as far as the term goes in the New Testament, we find that it's referring to people. And, you know, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.

01:26:59

They cannot even die anymore because they're like angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

01:27:05

And they're sons of God means people. And so that's what it means.

01:27:11

It's a nice little, you know, interesting study. And, you know, I talked to the

01:27:18

Logos guy today. I told him, I said, look, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do a plug, a shameless kind of a plug. But I said,

01:27:24

I'm always plugging Logos. I mean, not every minute, but I said, it's really a great program. And I'm telling you, all

01:27:30

I got to do in this thing, and you know, Andrew, is just put in a phrase, boom, there it is. Every phrase.

01:27:36

And it has exportability and the whole bit. I'm serious. Logos is really good. I don't recommend people go, it's expensive, but it's really, really good.

01:27:44

People complain because it's expensive. But what you get for the expense, and that's the thing you have to remember is you're getting a ton of study that you can do very quickly.

01:27:57

And being, the searching in it is, and this is what I, you and I, I need to teach you how to like do some of the searching where you could say, okay,

01:28:05

I want to know where Jesus is speaking. And Peter is within three words of the word fish.

01:28:14

And you can search that way. I mean, it's really neat, the kind of different ways you could do searching in there.

01:28:21

Very powerful. Now they made it even easier. They used to have, you had to code in all this crazy code to get it to do that.

01:28:29

Now it's just, they pre -populate things. So you just fill it in. It's wonderful. Let's go to Cody.

01:28:37

He came in. So Cody, you can unmute yourself. And Matt, you'll remember Cody. You met him in Dallas a couple of years ago.

01:28:46

So are we just - Yeah. A couple of years ago when you did a debate with David Smalley.

01:28:53

Yeah, that's about how I remember. Yeah. Because I mean, every time you come in, Cody, he's always like, oh, have we met?

01:29:02

Yeah. And then I have to go through this long list of all the different ways that he knows me. He just doesn't remember that he knows me.

01:29:08

Oh, I know. Don't feel bad. The first time when we went to Washington DC, Matt and I were going, we went to sushi and we were waiting outside for Josh.

01:29:18

And you know who Josh Calvin is, Kline. And Matt's like, so who are we waiting for? Josh, you know, the guy that called in the show and he was dating a girl and gave her a quiz from Karm.

01:29:28

He's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Come in there. Who are you waiting for? Who's Josh? The guy with the dating.

01:29:35

Like five times you went through it, right? What are we talking about now?

01:29:43

I don't know. Matt has a short term memory of a goldfish. Where is

01:29:49

Josh, by the way? He's married. He got married. He got married. But you know, should we hear some advice from his marriage?

01:29:56

Let's see. Do I have that handy? This was him when

01:30:02

Matt asked him how his marriage was going. This is what Josh said. Yeah, it's been challenging, but it's good.

01:30:10

I feel like it's already been forever. It's only been 16 days. Yeah. Matt, you had some words of advice for him after that call.

01:30:20

Yeah. I think we're going to have to play that more if he doesn't show up. Yeah, he's a good guy though.

01:30:28

He is. He's actually working on a course for us at Striving for Eternity on textual criticism.

01:30:35

It's going to be a while before that comes out, but that's going to be really good. So, Cody, you got some questions for us?

01:30:42

Well, yeah, I can always conjure something. But the first thing I thought about whenever I heard that commercial for when he said, ding dong,

01:30:50

Jehovah's Witnesses, ding dong, Mormons, I was waiting for him to say, ding dong, dispensationalists. He didn't do that.

01:30:58

That is good. You just moved up. Dispensationalists, actually go door to door.

01:31:09

Well, you got to earn those people into the kingdom of heaven. You're familiar with the council, and I don't remember who it was.

01:31:18

Someone interviewed him for - I did. It was you? Yeah, it was Cody. Okay, so that was great.

01:31:24

You brought up that commercial, and Todd Friel had no clue because he doesn't listen.

01:31:31

He plays the commercial all the time, but he doesn't listen during the breaks. He's working. So he didn't even pick up on eating during the new year.

01:31:38

His question was, did you just call me Mr. Ding Dong? And I'll be honest, my heart kind of skipped a beat when he said that.

01:31:47

And I was like, uh, uh. I actually talked to him after that interview, and I filled him in.

01:31:53

I was like, here, go listen to the commercial you did. He goes, oh, that's what he was talking about.

01:32:00

Right. And there's the awkward radio sounds, and he goes, how's it going, Cody? And I'm like, oh, good. And then

01:32:06

I went on to the show, because I wasn't sure. Anyway. Dude, you sound like Josh. You sound a lot like Josh.

01:32:12

Well, why are you insulting him that way? Who, Josh? I didn't say who the him was. I just -

01:32:17

Okay. Well, I have a few more years on what to say and what not to say about my marriage than Josh does.

01:32:24

Anyways. You know, I'll be married. Guess how, I mean, my wedding anniversary is one week from today.

01:32:33

One week from today. It'll be 32 years. Wow. Congrats, man. I really only thought

01:32:39

Neek would stay with you for two. Two weeks. Yeah, two days is what

01:32:44

I was saying. I thought she was just looking to get a honeymoon out of the deal. She got a honeymoon.

01:32:51

That's right. That was another thing. Yeah. Anyway. Let me ask you a question. Sure. I hear you talking about your argument for sprinkling kids.

01:33:08

I've heard you go through a million times about saying you believe Jesus was sprinkled. They were fulfilling a lot of righteousness.

01:33:18

And you make the connection between the Levitical priesthood, how they were sprinkled when they came into their ministry and things like that.

01:33:25

I don't know. So maybe you can expound on it. I've heard people casually say, well,

01:33:35

Jesus wasn't part of the Levitical priesthood. He was part of the

01:33:41

Melchizedek priesthood. Is that incontrovertible? No, no, it's not incontrovertible.

01:33:48

It's a fair statement. It is because it's true. But then we have to look at what does it mean when he said he came to fulfill all righteousness?

01:33:58

And I don't know of any other places in the scriptures that even approach what he did, except out of the

01:34:05

Levitical priesthood issue. Now people say, well, he's not a Levitical priest. He's a Melchizedek priest.

01:34:11

Well, but then you're saying there's still priests. And the priesthood manifestation requirements are listed in the scriptures.

01:34:18

And furthermore, all the priesthoods of the Old Testament point ahead to the true priesthood of Christ. So they're representative of that priesthood.

01:34:25

Unless you want to say the Levitical priesthood is not representative of the true priesthood. If that were the case, then that'd be heretical.

01:34:31

But if they say it is representative, then in what way is it representative? Well, you know,

01:34:36

I mean, the offering of blood and sacrificing and things like that obviously points to the cross, obviously.

01:34:42

But what we find is that in order for people to enter into that priesthood, Levitical priesthood, they had to be 30 years of age.

01:34:48

Jesus was 30. Had to be anointed with oil. Jesus was anointed with oil, the Holy Spirit. Verbal blessing given on the priest.

01:34:53

Jesus had a verbal blessing given on him. They were sprinkled with water. Jesus was baptized. And I can show you other instances where baptism implies sprinkling strongly.

01:35:03

And we can do that if you want out of the Bible. But so it just makes sense to say, well, that seems to be where it is.

01:35:09

Leviticus 8, Numbers 4, Exodus 29. Those, I don't know of any other places. And I've looked and did cross -referencing.

01:35:17

No other place seems to have it. So my conclusion is it seems to be that he was fulfilling the law.

01:35:24

And the only place that the law speaks about the kind of things he did was in those chapters of Levitical priesthood.

01:35:31

So I just put two and two together and go, okay, that's good enough. So, and Cody, this is one of the areas where Matt and I disagree.

01:35:38

I would take the position like you said. So let me ask you, Matt, let me challenge you. So, okay.

01:35:44

The priest was sprinkled with oil, right? And anointed with oil. No, he's anointed with oil, sprinkled with water.

01:35:53

Yeah. So I would say that the anointing of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be directly, you know,

01:36:00

I would say that it's not, that's not a direct correlation to the anointing with oil. Yes, it is.

01:36:05

First John 2, 27, the anointing which you have received abides in you. And that's speaking of the Holy Spirit.

01:36:10

Yeah, no, I'm saying, I'm not saying that he's not anointed from the Holy Spirit. I'm saying that he wasn't anointed with oil, which would have been the argument.

01:36:18

Yeah. But oil has a representation of the Spirit. And there's some research on that as well.

01:36:24

But here's the thing to draw out of that. Notice this. There's a small point that not very often is brought up.

01:36:30

If you have an object that's to go into the temple, sometimes I believe that they were immersed in water or whatever it is to be immersed in, to be cleansed.

01:36:40

But also things were anointed with oil by having somebody touch something with oil and have oil applied to something.

01:36:49

And the high priest would go in on Yom Kippur and he would sprinkle the mercy seat with blood and he wouldn't immerse the mercy seat, which is the lid.

01:36:59

He wouldn't immerse it. He would sprinkle it. And I think the sprinkling is, I don't know, check it out and see if in the

01:37:06

Septuagint if it uses the word baptizo or cognate. But if you guys want here, tell you what, look at this.

01:37:12

Watch this. If you really want to see the evidence for this kind of a thing, you go to Hebrews, I believe it's nine.

01:37:24

And there we go. Let's see, get back into the NASB, the one that Paul the apostle used.

01:37:30

Where is it? I guess I'll stick with the standard version then.

01:37:36

The what standard? The less standard? The elect standard version. Elect standard version, which gets

01:37:42

Romans 518 wrong. It does. That I will stand on.

01:37:47

It does. Okay. So, okay, here we go.

01:37:53

NASB. So if we were to go to Hebrews 9, check this out. I forgot where exactly it is. So let me just kind of read the whole thing.

01:38:00

Even now the first covenant had regulations of divine worship in the sanctuary. Earthly sanctuary, for there was a tabernacle prepared, lampstand, bread table behind.

01:38:11

The second veil is tabernacle, also called the Holy of Holies, having a golden altar of incense, the Ark of the Covenant, the tables of the covenant, the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat.

01:38:22

Verse six, now when these things had been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle, performing the divine worship.

01:38:29

I think you're thinking of May verse 13 for the blood. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's really, this has got me,

01:38:36

I don't want to get a hit. I want to, you'll see what I'm doing. But I got stuck on performing the divine worship because it just made me think of Catholicism.

01:38:46

So I got to file that one away. Okay. But into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of committed against ignorance.

01:38:56

The Holy Spirit is signifying this, the way the Holy place is disclosed, the outer tabernacle, which is a symbol of present time, according to both the gift sacrifices, worshiper, relate to food and drink and various washings.

01:39:09

The word washings there is baptismos, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

01:39:16

I think you're right. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say not of this creation and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, he entered the

01:39:29

Holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption for the blood of goats and bulls and ashes of the heifer, sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify the cleansing of the flesh.

01:39:40

So how much more with the blood of Christ do the same to you? So it talks about sprinkling here, particularly in verse 13, but in verse 10, it's talking about food, drink, and various washings, regulations of the body imposed at a time.

01:39:56

What he's talking about there is the Old Testament requirements of the priesthood, what they had to go through. And then it goes into Christ as our high priest entered through the great tabernacle, his own thing, his own blood.

01:40:08

And then the sprinkling it talks about, which I think is interesting, and goes back to the Old Testament system.

01:40:14

But if the blood of goats and bulls and ashes, sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh.

01:40:22

Well, you know, the washings here, baptismos, is in the context of speaking of sprinklings. And the

01:40:28

Old Testament regulations were sprinklings, a lot of them. So I'm just saying that there's evidence here that the word baptismos in the context can deal with sprinkling.

01:40:40

Well, I would challenge this a little because, I mean, the washings, there is a, and I know you're familiar with this, others may not, but the

01:40:49

Jews would have the mitzvahs where someone would, there would be a baptism.

01:40:54

And this is what I think John the Baptist was doing, which is why so many were confused by it.

01:41:00

When a Gentile is going to become Jewish, they would be immersed into water with a baptism.

01:41:08

Okay. That seems to be what John the Baptist was doing. So I would think that he was fully immersing, folks.

01:41:17

I don't believe so, but, you know, that's okay. I don't think it's possible to baptize the 3 ,000 by immersion if 12 disciples were doing it.

01:41:26

But yeah, that's where I just, I don't think it would have been the 12. I think it'd be like everybody was doing it.

01:41:31

Yeah, I don't buy that one either. But, you know, that's the early church sprinkled. So, you know, whatever.

01:41:38

Doesn't mean it's right, but. Yeah. And, but even, even in the, you know, and this will be.

01:41:44

Wait, let me get back to the guy who asked the question. So let me just say this. The first that we see the sprinkles, sprinkling, or actually pouring, not sprinkling, would be in the

01:41:55

Didache, right? And. Which is not immersion, but it's a form of baptism by pouring.

01:42:00

It's a baptism by pouring, but it does mention that that's in areas where there's little water.

01:42:06

So it's saying that it's acceptable where there's little water. So I would say that the first century, I think based on that, the first century example we have is where there was enough water.

01:42:17

They would immerse. Yeah. I prefer immersion. Actually, I prefer it. I like, I was immersed in the ocean.

01:42:23

You know, I think it's biblical to be immersed. I think it's biblical to be sprinkled. Because Jesus most probably was sprinkled according to the law.

01:42:36

You have a right to that opinion. Can't fulfill the righteousness. And the only place talks about water applied to him is in the context of sprinkling in the priesthood.

01:42:45

So I have not seen anybody get out of that one because they don't accept it, but I've not seen him get out of it.

01:42:51

Yeah, I'll just go with your argument for the Nephilim, that the

01:42:58

Jews always believed that baptism was immersion. So I'm good with that.

01:43:04

You know, actually with the Nephilim, there is, and Matt, I got to do some study on this, but Jason Lyle, I don't know if you know who he is.

01:43:13

He's an astrophysicist. He used to be with Answers in Genesis, then Institute of Creation Research.

01:43:19

Now he's on his own on, oh, now why am I drawing a blank? Biblical science.

01:43:25

Whatever, so let her place you. Yeah, but so he's on his own, but Jason Lyle actually went into the different Hebrew words there with the

01:43:32

Nephilim and that passage in Genesis six. And I actually have to talk to him and get to work through the

01:43:40

Hebrew with him. He's the first I've heard that gave an argument that's not just, well, that would be

01:43:46

Greek mythology, so it can't be right. Right, so I haven't really seen really good arguments against the sons of God being angels as we see elsewhere in Job.

01:44:03

So, you know, I have to check that out. Maybe we'll get him on one time and go through that because he really has a very interesting argument on it through the

01:44:12

Hebrew that he looked at and I hadn't heard it because he did it. He said it once and I couldn't take the notes to write it all down.

01:44:22

But yeah, I agree with you that that seems to be the reading that's been accepted historically, but the way we see the word sons of God in the

01:44:33

Old Testament. Yeah, I've heard Biblical Science Institute. Yeah, that's

01:44:40

Jason Lyle. And I interviewed him, too, by the way. Anyways, but yeah. Hey, Cody, do we need to pick up that, you know, that plug you just dropped the name?

01:44:52

Yeah, yeah. If you want. Anyways, no,

01:44:57

I was going to say. I heard

01:45:02

Bodie Bauckham talk through that, too, and he also disagrees that sons of God, like he did not.

01:45:09

And I can't remember. I can find the sermon and send it to you, Andrew, if you want. But he goes through that and says, no, that they were not the offspring of fallen angels and people.

01:45:18

And I can't remember. It's been so long since I listened to it. But anyways. All right.

01:45:27

So, Cody, I don't know if you have anything else because if not, I see that Andrew unmuted his mic.

01:45:33

I don't know if our friend from Down Under has a question. I do, actually.

01:45:39

It's for Matt. I was talking about earlier when he was alluding to the feelings. I guess it's a two part question, really.

01:45:49

How much value they actually place on the feelings and what's the impact within their doctrine and how does that impact on Mormonism as a belief?

01:46:05

James 1 .5 says, if any of you lack wisdom, let them ask of God. And so what the

01:46:10

Mormons will do is use God's word to justify their feelings because they're going to say, if you lack wisdom, let them ask of God and he'll reveal it to you.

01:46:16

Oh, they pray about the Book of Mormon because it says in Moroni 10 .4 to pray about the Book of Mormon to see if these things are true.

01:46:23

And then you get a feeling. You ask of God. So they use the Book of Mormon and then they use the Bible in James 1 .5 to validate this idea of praying for the

01:46:31

Book of Mormon. So they get a sensation. They get a feeling. So it's feelings oriented, feelings based, period.

01:46:41

If you haven't gone to a Mormon ward, go check it out. Go on a Sunday. They're not going to beat you up.

01:46:48

They're not going to be mean. They're nice people. Go check it out. Just plan to be there two, three, four hours.

01:46:54

You can leave anytime you want. There were several that were near us. Yeah, just check one out and just dress up nicely.

01:47:01

I haven't got any now. I wouldn't know where the nearest one is now. I can't drive anymore.

01:47:10

So I'm on public transport. Well, it depends if you want to go, but I do recommend people go because then you can see what it is that they do.

01:47:21

And you go, oh, it's a very feelings, family -oriented religion. And so it's all about feelings, all about family and things like that.

01:47:29

So that's it. And then when one thing is destroyed, Mormonism, then everything that goes along with it, that they base everything, all this goodness and feelings and love is really thrown up in the air.

01:47:41

It really messes with them. And so a lot of them become atheists because it's easy. Because in atheism, you don't have to be accountable to anybody.

01:47:48

You can feel whatever you want. It doesn't matter. There's no absoluteness to it. So you can find a kind of a false safety in it for a while.

01:47:57

And then people often become addicted to it because they like the self -grandizement that atheism provides.

01:48:06

Totally. The next question I had, some other writers that you might know of to read generally, what

01:48:15

I mean by writers, I mean older ones. For example, at the moment, I'm going through some of the old

01:48:20

AW Poser stuff and material. I'm wondering if you can recommend anybody else.

01:48:29

For what? Just for general reading. On what?

01:48:35

And knowledge. On what? Christianity, extension of the Bible.

01:48:43

Go to CARM. I guess. I mean... Yeah, thanks. Because I've done so much research and writing,

01:48:51

I just break it down for people and put it right there. But it depends what kind of thing you want, what you're looking for.

01:49:01

Maybe I can recommend some books. Yeah. Well, that's what

01:49:06

I was kind of looking for. But anyway, I'll go to CARM and I'll have a look. I guess you've got a list there somewhere.

01:49:13

I've got a list of recommended books which haven't gone over in five years. I've got it updated. But there are some good books out there.

01:49:19

I definitely want to get A Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. That's the best one I think is out there right now. Yep. Yep.

01:49:26

Because I mean, what I mean by that is the first theological book I ever bought was

01:49:32

Willing to Believe by R .C. Sproul. I bought it. It took me about three or four years to actually open it and read it.

01:49:39

Well, that's pretty fast. You know, that's about the reading speed of Andrew. He reads like one word every hour,

01:49:44

I think. He's pretty good. He's increased. Hearing him sound it out is hard.

01:49:52

Like, you know, once upon a time, it goes on for hours and then gets it.

01:50:00

That's okay. Thanks for that. All right. Hey, Matt, let's wrap up with this.

01:50:06

I put something out on Facebook, a quote from Greg Cockel. Maybe get your views on this.

01:50:13

We use this to wrap up tonight because it's got a lot of interaction. Greg Cockel said this, quote, it is possible to tell the truth and still lie, unquote.

01:50:26

And what he was talking about was in media, how people will not give all the details so that he can purposely mislead people.

01:50:36

So is it possible to state things that are independently true in an order or without all the details in such a way that it would still be considered a lie?

01:50:49

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You can tell half -truths, like Satan did it. Did God say, eat of the trees, reciting something that God said?

01:50:59

Well, God knows that this is going to happen. You'd be like him. Well, technically, knowing good and evil, there's truth in that.

01:51:05

But what he's doing is weaving a lie with the truth. This is what the left is very good at, not to mention omitting truths so that they shade what the truth is according to their view and conception.

01:51:21

Yeah, I don't trust the left air. And I heard, oh, I yelled out loud.

01:51:26

I was so happy. I didn't vote for Trump, OK? But he said to one of the guys, you know, if you, some meeting of the news people, and he said something, blah, blah, blah.

01:51:39

I forget what it was. He goes, you are the enemy of the people. And I went, I just yelled out loud, exactly correct.

01:51:45

I believe the news media is the enemy of the people. I do. Yeah, well, that's why I think people actually like Trump is because he's saying what they would like.

01:51:54

They would just want to hear someone say it. But yeah, I mean, someone actually had the point you just said, that there is a when you omit key details, you provide the context.

01:52:06

Yeah, to mislead, to mislead. I mean, I think I know there's some that as long as they're saying the truth, everything, everything independently is true.

01:52:15

They're not responsible for the way people interpret those things and put it.

01:52:21

But, you know, if they're doing it to deceive, you know, would that be a lie?

01:52:28

How about this one? Is it possible to not lie and also not tell the truth at the same time?

01:52:37

Not lie and not tell the truth. At the same time.

01:52:42

There's two knots in there. That's throwing me off. There's not a double negative trick. But can you actually not be lying about something, but also not telling the truth?

01:52:53

I would say yes. I think that's what Greg was getting at, is that I think that you could be stating things that are true in a way that would be misleading.

01:53:05

For example, one of the examples that someone had was, have you stopped beating your wife? Well, if I'd never been beating my wife, then

01:53:15

I could say yes, but that would assume that I was beating my wife.

01:53:21

Right. Well, here's the thing. We always define our terms. What's a lie? A lie is an intention to deceive someone, right?

01:53:30

So what if I honestly thought, for example, say you were out here visiting for a week and you're gone for doing some other friends and stuff here for a couple of days.

01:53:38

And I said, no, today Andrew went to the mall because I thought that's what you're going to do.

01:53:44

That's what you said you're going to do. But you never did go to the mall. I've not told the truth, but I've also not lied.

01:53:52

Correct. Yeah. In a case like that, yes, you'd be able to say something that you thought was true.

01:54:01

Right. But was not true. Even though it wasn't true, but that wasn't, but your intention wasn't to deceive.

01:54:07

And I think that would be the, I think that's what Greg Kukor is trying to get at is if people are purposely leaving out details or putting a time order that's different so that they could deceive people.

01:54:21

That's a lie. I think you're on the right path. You tell the truth and lying or yes, what? I think you're right there,

01:54:27

Andrew, because when I used to know Greg, when I lived down South, he used to use the example of telling the truth in saying that all mushrooms are edible.

01:54:38

That's true enough, but it's deceptive in that it doesn't warn you to the fact that some are only edible one time because they kill you and you don't live to eat anymore.

01:54:48

So I initially told you the truth, but leaving out something would be dangerous.

01:54:58

So if you're giving someone, if your intention is to kill somebody and you give them mushrooms and they ask, is it edible?

01:55:06

You could say, yes, it's edible. And that would be true. But leaving out the key ingredient, the key information leads to their death.

01:55:17

Exactly. Yeah, that's a good example. Yeah, because we call it mushroom newscasting.

01:55:25

Maybe. Go ahead, Cody. Can I, I'm sorry to change the subject, but can

01:55:32

I express the desire? Okay, I would love to see

01:55:40

Matt. I know you have a lot going on in your life right now, but I would love to see. I know he's got his own ministry, but I'd love to see

01:55:49

Justin Peters collaborate with you because I know that you're going to be working on the false teachers and stuff like that and expounding more on the

01:55:56

NAR and all that kind of stuff. I'll tell you real quick. I went to an interview with the church for an interim worship leader position, right?

01:56:09

And song leader position. And I got to talk with the pastors and I told them flat out, I said, well,

01:56:15

I don't do Hillsong songs and I don't do Bethel songs. And they had a lot of what they did was

01:56:21

Hillsong and they asked me why. And I just told them as they're going into different heresies and stuff and that they're basically prosperity gospel lie, the

01:56:29

Bethel holds to kenosis. They believe that if you don't. What? Oh yeah, that's what they teach.

01:56:36

Really? Yeah. I didn't know that. Watch the movie American Gospel. It just came out on Vimeo.

01:56:42

You have to rent it. Get it. I told Chad Pregmore. He's a friend of mine. I told him to tell you that.

01:56:48

American gospel. It goes, it goes into that American gospel,

01:56:54

American gospel. It's a documentary that just came out and it goes in the prosperity stuff and it outlines all of that and it gives the quotes.

01:57:02

It gives them speaking. Bill Johnson even says, if you don't believe in miracles, you don't, you have a false gospel.

01:57:09

You're not saved. Yeah. Anyways, so I started telling him all this stuff and I was expecting pushback, right?

01:57:17

Cause that's all we get on that stuff. And he told me, the pastor said, just looked at me and said, you know, other pastors need to know this.

01:57:26

We don't know these things. We're too concerned with our congregations to be in touch with what's going on in the, on a greater scale.

01:57:33

Some of the time he's like, you have a lot of information there that pastors need to know.

01:57:38

And so, you know, I got to looking online and, you know, the only site that I found that has a really whole, written out quotes, all that kind of stuff is not a site that I really wanted to recommend to the pastor.

01:57:57

Right. Yeah. And, but like, if you guys could collaborate on some kind of profiles with links and quotes and stuff like that, to be able to just forward to these people, that would be so helpful.

01:58:10

Because I mean, it's, it's like a, it's, it's blowing up faster than, I mean, it's crazy.

01:58:19

Yeah. I have over a hundred people in most of the research and I started doing some research on Kenneth Copeland.

01:58:27

And within, I think it was a couple hours, I realized, oh my goodness, I mean, I'm not in over my head, but I want to say, man,

01:58:34

I'm in over my head. Because there's just so much. And so what I'm going to have to do is redo how

01:58:39

I do things and just do a single page on each person. I could do pages and pages and pages and articles.

01:58:45

I'll never get anywhere. So I want to do a synopsis with documentation. And I've been viewing a couple other sites that kind of do something similar, but I think they may all make a mistake in that they don't just bullet point list out the quotes by topic.

01:58:57

This is what they're teaching. And you can see the quotes. That's what people want. This is what he says. It's what he says. It's where he says it. These are the things that people need to see and hear.

01:59:04

And if I can associate them with audio tapes, video tapes and things like that, then I can have the documentation, click on this link for those things as well.

01:59:12

But then I have to figure out the methodology for storing that huge amount of data, videos and stuff that people can go through when

01:59:19

I do a hundred of these people. So it's going to be a major effort. It's going to take me a year or two to kind of get through it all.

01:59:26

But I'm, you know, I want to do it. And I actually have a Facebook page called Exposing the

01:59:31

Prosperity Gospel. And so I'm asking for help on there for people to go and they will find documentation.

01:59:40

What I'm going to do now is start saying, I'm going to work on one person at a time and everybody puts in what they find.

01:59:46

Then I have to be able to go get their books, document it, get the videos, document it. Then I have to download the videos to keep the documentation because sometimes these things get changed and then you're going to break the links.

01:59:57

So it's a bit of a job, but yeah. All right.

02:00:03

So with that, we're going to wrap up tonight. We'll be back next Thursday night. Actually, no, correction.

02:00:09

We will not be back next Thursday night. Next Thursday is Thanksgiving. We will not be here next

02:00:16

Thursday night. So mark that programming note. But week after next, we'll be back answering your questions.

02:00:25

You can go into the Apologetics Live Facebook group, ask questions there. It's one of the places we take questions from folks.

02:00:32

One of the things I do appreciate, Matt, is the whole time we're talking, the atheists that came in and didn't have the good cell signal had to drop out.

02:00:42

I'm just watching in the chat as I know you are. You're responding with him as well as people are just evangelizing in there.

02:00:50

It's just encouraging to see that as we're having these discussions and talking, there's a whole lot of activity in chat where people are sharing the gospel.

02:00:58

And that's encouraging. And it's neat to think that we have our

02:01:03

Australian friend here who, the technology, we can literally reach around the world and be able to share.

02:01:10

I think of the guy who was a nurse. He used to call in when we, whatever happened to him. I don't know.

02:01:15

He was, I mean, he was one. It was great. He was reading good

02:01:21

Christian apologists and. You know, he really had good questions and don't know what happened with him, but he used to be able to, because he worked nights, he pay attention, come in during the day.

02:01:35

I will, I did put for folks here in the room, I put the link for the after show.

02:01:40

The after show we do is with the council. The council is a group of guys who spend a lot of time on discord, but they will do the after show.

02:01:49

It's a little bit more of a free for all discussion, but they are a group of good guys that we're associate with and hang out with.

02:01:58

And so Matt's going to make his way. I think, are you coming into the after show tonight, Matt? Oh, maybe for 10 or 15 minutes.

02:02:04

So Matt may be there for 10, 15 minutes. I probably will not. Cause I haven't had a chance to spend with my wife at all.

02:02:10

And I hope to spend at least a couple minutes before she goes to bed. But so maybe after she goes to bed, I'll jump in.

02:02:15

But, uh, the, I'll put the link in the, um, in the chat as well.

02:02:20

And you can just go to the council on Facebook, find it there if you want. But, uh, they'll have a continuation where they continue discussing some of the stuff we discussed here.

02:02:29

Again, this will become a podcast that you can listen to. So just search for Apologetics Live on whatever podcast app you have and you'll find it.

02:02:41

I encourage you to, to be checking out some of the other podcasts on the

02:02:47

Christian Podcast Community. We're going to be having, uh, Theology Gals is going to be coming over soon. Uh, they're working on getting their new website and that's what they've been waiting for for a while.

02:02:56

And then Justin Peters is getting his podcast going again. And so he's going to be doing,

02:03:02

I think, twice a week. He'll also be on the Christian Podcast Community. And starting in January, we hope to open that up to other podcasters.

02:03:10

If you're interested, you can go to the group, the Christian Podcast Community group.

02:03:16

There's two, one that's got a bunch of heretics in it. And then the smaller one, uh, it's amazing that these, the heretics always have the bigger groups, right?

02:03:24

But, uh, if you go to the smaller one, uh, Christian Podcast Community, uh, you ask to join, um, you get approved, but, uh, we're going to be letting folks in there know when we're opening up and have the applications ready.

02:03:40

We've been trying to just work. We want to make sure we do things legally, right. To, to protect everyone so that they are assured that they own their content.

02:03:49

And there's no question about that. So, uh, we've been working with the attorneys to get the contracts right and things like that.

02:03:56

So with that one, I encourage you, we've given you plenty of articles from calm .org for you to check out.

02:04:03

Uh, want to tell you also check out the materials that striving fraternity. You could find my books there.

02:04:08

You could find our free classes there that we offer online on theology and, uh, how to interpret the

02:04:15

Bible called hermeneutics world religions, uh, even how to intro to discipling. So all of that is available in our striving fraternity

02:04:22

Academy. And so we will not be here next week. Again, that's Thanksgiving, no apologetics live.

02:04:30

You'll need to do your apologetics over the Thanksgiving turkey. For some of us, there is difficulty with Thanksgiving because we have to do more apologetics than enjoy

02:04:43

Turkey. And, uh, I don't enjoy Turkey, but yeah, the apologetics is, is there.

02:04:49

So, um, yeah, I actually had Matt. I had my daughter, I should give a plug.

02:04:54

My daughter had a great wedding. They organized it. There was more gospel presentation than there was talk of marriage or of my daughter and her, her husband.

02:05:07

Um, yeah, it was, it was really, I mean, they, they, they did target it.

02:05:12

I think toward my Jewish family though, because I think they read all of Isaiah 53, gave the fulfillments in the new

02:05:21

Testament and, and just in their readings, basically all the readings, all the songs that were sung were all about the gospel.

02:05:30

The pastor got up and, and the reason they didn't want me to officiate was because they knew it would, me sharing the gospel wouldn't come across as well to my family.

02:05:41

And so my daughter and my son -in -law had a heart for, uh, the unsaved there, both my family and my wife's family.

02:05:49

And so they really wanted to, the gospel presented and they figured if it came from someone other than me, my family might accept it a little bit better to hear it that way.

02:05:58

And it was great. I mean, the gospel was presented the night before at the rehearsal dinner, at the wedding, at the wedding reception, uh, they made sure the gospel was heard and it was, it was just, it was wonderful.

02:06:11

It's great to see that. And, uh, I'm just really, uh, was very thrilled with, with all of that this weekend.

02:06:18

It was a great time. And, uh, sorry, you couldn't be there. I financially,

02:06:24

I understand it's not cheap to fly across the country, but, um, it was a great time.

02:06:29

I put up some pictures on my Facebook for folks who want to see that. So until the week after next, remember practicing the apologetics that you learn here with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport and continue listening to Apologetics Live.