Who is "Drawn by the Father?"

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Debate Format and Opening Statements

And good evening and welcome to the dividing line this evening a debate on John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45. I will be debating. Mr. Louis Ruggiero who is on The line and here's how it's going to work.

This is going to be fairly quick introduction because we want to get as much discussion as we can this evening both. Both speakers will have a particular period of time 15 minutes to make their case. Then I will be going first then mr. Ruggiero go second then we will have and I Apologize for doing this off top my head we will have five minutes to Respond to what the other individual said again the same order.

Then we will have ten minutes to cross-examine one another. I will be going first Asking mr. Ruggiero questions and he will be asking me questions for a total of ten minutes ten minutes each. That's totally of 20 minutes and then we'll have three minute closing statements.

Then we will be taking phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one now write that number down. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one because I'm probably not going to be repeating it very often.

During the course of the program obviously eight seven seven seven five three three. Three four one is the toll-free number. We will open up the lines for your phone calls after the cross-examination period so at the end of the cross-examination Period which will be the two ten-minute segments right before the three minute Closing statements, so you've pretty much heard the whole debate at that point other than the closing statements.

That's when we will open the phone lines and you can get online to ask your questions if you ask a question. Please tell us who you are addressing it to. Myself or mr. Ruggiero and the person to whom it is addressed Will have 60 seconds to respond to your question and then the other person will have 30 seconds to comment now.

That means we're gonna be able to get a lot of calls through. So make sure to you know. Have your fingers ready and get online and make the phone call. Because we will probably be able to to process you through.

I may not be able to have your name and things like that. But we'll get as many of you through as is possible and so This is a discussion that came out of pal talk initially another gentleman whose pal talk ID is Jade minor.

Was going to do this, but he passed it off to mr. Ruggiero and so what I'm also going to do because I did not receive any type of biographical information is When mr. Ruggiero is turned to do his opening statement comes if it's okay with him if he would like to have 60 seconds to introduce himself.

Where he's from what his interests are, you know, whatever he feels would be best. We'd be glad to do that because I did not receive any particular biographical information that I can share with you. So we will make that that available at that time available after I make my 15 minutes opening presentation.

So that's what the debate is about this evening on the dividing line. That's only about a three-minute introduction that's not too bad as far as laying out the the groundwork and so with that I will begin my time for my 15-minute presentation on John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 obviously John chapter 6 is Central to the issues surrounding Calvinism and Arminianism the Reformed faith.

It is I believe one of the clearest most compelling Presentations of the freedom and sovereignty of God and salvation in all of Scripture it has as one of its advantages.

The.

Fact that it comes from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ and since it comes from his lips. Though I do not believe that if it's in red letter, it's more Inspired than anything else. It does tend to speak to a very wide audience some who do in fact harbor some Feelings that if it's only found in Paul, then maybe someone's misunderstanding it.

Of course, John chapter 6 is the longest chapter in the Gospel of John and it is important to establish The context of this particular passage of Scripture in John chapter 6. Jesus has fed the 5 ,000 that's 5 ,000 men not including women and children and Here you have individuals who seek to make Jesus King.

They see this particular kind of miracle. They recognize what power is represented by the Lord Jesus. They seek to make him King. He knowing this and of course his disciples would know this as well. They would hear what the crowds were saying he sends the crowds away and He will not allow them to to do the things that they that they want to do.

Instead he sends them away and he sends the disciples away. Even though the disciples are probably very disappointed by this particular activity in the part of Lord Jesus and then we have Jesus going the disciples going across the lake and Jesus coming to them in the storm walking upon the water and This miracle takes place.

There may be another miracle. It takes place in that when Jesus gets in the boat. They're immediately on the other side. But the section that we're gonna be looking at John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 comes after this particular incident now, we're in Capernaum and we are in the synagogue in Capernaum and the individuals who Were on the other side of the lake these individuals are now seeking Jesus.

In fact, they are actually described as Seeking Jesus the very term that is used of someone searching someone else out. Just like in Romans chapter 3 when it is said that there is no God seeker. Then we have the very same term used here.

They are seeking after Jesus and they find him. These are individuals that from a modern perspective are the perfect people that you want to have in your church. They are the persons that you want to Have involved in in outreach and things like that.

They're seeking after Jesus, but Jesus's response to them is very very interesting. He recognizes That they are not really Seeking after him. They are looking for food. They are looking for the miracles.

They do not recognize their Spiritual need and so we come to our passage and here Jesus is Speaking to that and he says in verse 35 Jesus said to them I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall not hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

Jesus is presenting himself as the living bread the bread of life as the one who can fulfill spiritual hunger and spiritual thirst. But then verse 36 says but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

So Jesus knows that these men are unbelievers even though they sought after him they sought after him for the wrong reason. It's very important to recognize that in the rest of this passage. Jesus is explaining the Unbelief of these men there is no surprise that when you get to the end of John chapter 6 these men that Jesus knew were Unbelievers are walking away from Jesus and Jesus does not stop them.

He does not say oh guys you misunderstood me. Please come back. Let me try to express it in another way. He doesn't do any of that. He knew they were unbelievers even when they were seeking him and want to make him king.

Because they were seeking him for the wrong reason and the rest of this passage is explaining this unbelief. How can these people who saw the miracles who possessed the Word of God who are standing in the very presence of the incarnate?

Son of God, how can they stand there in? Unbelief. The reason is given to us in verse 37 all that the father gives me shall come to me and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. Here is Jesus's own Explanation if you really want to come to Jesus and these people are not they have sought after him.

But they're gonna walk away. These are not individuals who are coming to Jesus. Something must happen first. The first phrase is all that the father gives me shall come to me. Every word is extremely important.

All that the father gives me not some not most not a few all. That the father gives me will come to me. Now which action comes first and this is the first important thing to write down write down on a piece of paper if you would.

In this debate who answers the question of the text itself raised by verse 37. What is the relationship of the giving of the father to coming to the Son? That is the whole debate between Calvinism Arminianism.

Is it not? What is the relationship between God's sovereign selection or choice and man's action of believing in Christ? Well in John 637 both are present all that the father gives me will come to me grammatically logically syntactically and Contextually the giving of the father Precedes the coming of the individual to Christ.

Why is this so important?

Well.

Because obviously many people attempt to overthrow the testimony of this passage by saying well what's really going on here is is God looks down the corridors of time and on his for not basis of his foreknowledge He sees who's going to choose him and on that basis chooses them.

But that's not what Jesus says here the Relationship from the Lord Jesus's lips and remember this is found offensive. This is found offensive by these men. They say it's a hard saying who could understand it.

The relationship is it all that the father gives me will come to me. It is the father's giving that determines the coming of the individual in belief and faith to Jesus Christ. A person must first be given by the father to the son and As a result when the Holy Spirit works in that person's life that person will come in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ.

That person who's given by the father will without question Come to Christ not to anyone else not to another religion. But to Christ in him alone. And the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

What a beautiful promise so many of us hold this so carefully we can never be cast out. By our Savior, but why is that? That's the second half of a sentence so many people want to have this promise. But they don't want the theology upon which it is based.

It is based upon the assertion that the father has sovereign authority to give a specific people under the Sun. Do all people come to Christ? No, all people do not come to Christ hence those who are given is a limited group.

It is not every single individual. We do not believe in universalism. All that the father gives me will come to me and that is why the one who comes to me and we do come to Christ. I have believed in Jesus Christ.

But I believe in Jesus Christ because God in his infinite mercy in eternity past set his love upon me and at a time of his choosing Freed me from the bondage of sin and gave me the gift of faith so that I may indeed believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus will not cast that one out then in verses 38 and 39 as time is fleeting. We have Jesus own words. Concerning the will of the father for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who?

Sent me and this is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me I lose nothing. But raised it up on the last day and so here is this group of people the ones given by the father to the son.

Here it's placed in the present. Aren't they perfect tense. So this is referring to that eternal giving of the father to the son and it is a father's will. For the son that he lose none of those that are given to him none.

Now this means Jesus must be a perfect Savior. He must be a Savior who is capable in and of himself of Accomplishing the father's will and the father's will for him is that he lose none of those that are given to him.

Obviously all forms of synergism all forms of belief where man's will and man's faith Outside of the work of the Spirit of God are made this a sighting factor and Jesus wants to save and tries to save but fails to save.

Those beliefs crash upon the rocks of the clear statement of verses 38 and 39. That the Savior that Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior. He has the capacity to save those given to him now. What is the result then people many times will go to verse 40 they'll skip verses 37 through 39.

They'll skip the flow of thought. They'll go to verse 40 for this is the will of my father that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him may have eternal Life and I myself will raise him up on the last day.

That is very true. But please notice that the beholding and the believing are present tense. These are the results of the work of the Spirit within our life. Everyone who is drawn by the father will indeed Behold the son and believe in him and notice then Jesus says I myself will raise him up on the last day.

That was at the end of verse 39 at the end of verse 37. We have I will certainly not cast him out. Keep those in mind because they're very important. Well, the Jews don't like this and they grumble. They don't like him saying he's the bread of heaven and Jesus answers in verse 43 and says to them do not crumble among yourselves.

No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. There's that same phrase. Who does he raise up on the last day in? Verses 37 and 39 and 40 that work is his raising up in the last day those given to him by the father.

Verse 44 says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. Here's the next big thing to write down. Upon what basis are we to believe if we are to believe at all.

That the one who is raised up in verse 44 is different than the one who is drawn by the father. Why is that important. Because the only way to get around what this passage is teaching is to try to say well.

Everyone's drawn up. Isn't that what John 12 32 says. Go to another context ignore that context and what it actually means. Bring it back here to John chapter 6 verse 44 and say well, everyone's drawn up.

So this doesn't really mean anything. That's not the case. All that the father gives me is the same as no one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws Him and I will raise him up in the last day.

Who is drawn by the father to the son. Those given by the father to the son and All those who are drawn are raised up on the last day. Very very important. The parallel then notice verse 45 then restates this.

It is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught of. Everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me. Well, wherever he's seen that phrase comes to me before we saw it in verse 37.

All the father gives me shall come to me. We saw it in verse 44. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him. So what is this learning and hearing from the father? It's the same thing as being drawn by the father and who is it that hears and learns.

Who is it that is drawn? Those that are given by the father to the son and. So we have a perfect balance we have a perfect consistency Throughout this passage. Well, then what's the issue? Well, the issue is Jesus is teaching here runs directly opposite of the traditions of men.

Anyone who wants to hold on to the libertarian concept of free will will run directly into this particular passage. Not only does it make God Sovereign the matter of salvation and man the object of the perfect work of Christ hence He has no ground of boasting.

He has no ground to say I'm the one I by my will chose to do this over against those people in hell. They didn't and so I'm better nothing like that at all it cuts all the ground out from underneath boasting and verse 44, especially is Too many people extremely offensive.

No one is able is literally what Jesus says Udice do not I no one has the capacity to come to me unless the father does something and You see that is what is so tremendously offensive to those who believe that God did most everything.

But he he is totally controlled by my final decision. God tries and he tries and he tries and he tries. But it's up to me to enable him to save me by my act of quote-unquote free will. John 644 is directly contrary to the concept of free will and therefore this whole passage its emphasis upon the sovereign Freedom of God and giving a people and to the Son not based upon anything they do.

But in fact their action of coming to Christ is independent upon his having given them the freedom of God the sovereignty of God the sufficiency of Christ as Savior and The inability of man that is so clearly and bluntly stated by the Lord Jesus and notice at the end of this chapter verses 65 and following Jesus keeps repeating that statement and that is why men turn around and walk away.

They are offended they were offended then and Unfortunately, many people are offended by the truth this passage today as well. So that is my presentation on the subject of John chapter 6 we will now reset our clock here and I will ask our Board operator to bring mr. Ruggiero online.

Are you there, sir? Yes, I am. All right, and were you able to hear me well enough? I hope yes.

I was. I like to use the one minute to introduce myself before my time starts. Okay, you go ahead and do that. This is Mormons Muslim Calvinist. So that's that's my bio and Keeping. Okay, sir. You have 15 minutes.

You may begin. Well, dr. White sex of Jesus on John chapter 6 very very well be true a sovereign election a sovereign counsel. God decides our sovereign election sovereign counsel. Well, the scriptures teach that John chapter Smith unto me are the learned of the father.

Father means having knowledge. How can we be learned of the father and not have knowledge? How do we get that now the one verse seven of the Lord give me the definition. It does in Proverbs chapter. And the evil way in the froward with my reproof every man.

Therefore that I will make known and he refused. I have stretched out my hand and no man regarded and he refused. Then shall they call upon find me. God gave us all the innate ability you might ask. What does it say in Scripture that fear of the Lord leads to the son of psalm 25.

Shall he teach in the way that he? Shall choose psalm 25 14. The secret of the Lord of the Lord is with them and he took the cup and gave thanks and Gave it to them saying drinky or shed. For many fear of the Lord and the covenant.

He said whom think he that I am. I am not. Whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. And whosoever among you fear among you fear it places our own choice at the head. That leads to the court and passed the cross and said of a truth.

I perceive that God is no respect of a person's. But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is Accepted with him. Notice the fear again. Nothing said of a truth. I perceive that God is no respect with that fear with him.

He that exercises their free will choice. It's righteousness is accepted with him. It's all about choice. Dr. White said this is John 6 7 again together. That's right. It's true all scriptures of psalm 25 for Lord.

God will show you his covenant 11 27 create individuals in there. Well, no, I don't think that's fair. We all have a choice to decide and make decision with respect to our own eternal destiny. Do you fear the Lord or do you repent?

Repentance goes with fearing the Lord. Let's go back to the definition to hate evil. You hate evil. Do you hate your sin repent? Remove the pride. Remove the arrogancy. Humble yourself before the Lord God of Israel.

Your decision choose to fear. It's as easy as that. Yes, sir. You have four minutes left. I do have four minutes left. Okay, let's let's use the children of Israel as an example. Bless them not to fear the Lord.

God took away their knowledge. Well, Javon near me with their mouth and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Therefore behold I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people even a marvelous work and a wonder for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish and the understanding of their prudent God removed the knowledge of the children not to fear the Lord.

If you will fear the Lord both ye and. Also, they can obey the voice of the hand of the Lord be against you. You fear the Lord. You obey his will or you don't obey his voice. The matter is it really doesn't matter anymore because it will obey him.

Yes, sir. You have five minutes.

The Father's Drawing and the Meaning of John 6

Yes, the next section of the debate is five minute responses and my time will begin right now. Well, unfortunately the the debate challenge that I had issued to initially was to present The exegesis of John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45.

We have only heard one exegesis of John chapter 6 we have heard a presentation of a semi Pelagian anthropology and a Perspective on free will libertarian free will but we have not had almost anything on John chapter 6.

What was mentioned was well John chapter 6 verse 45 is hearing and learning from the father as I pointed out my presentation that is direct parallel of Being drawn by the father that was not refuted in the response.

Because all those who hear and learn from the father the father is a source of this the drawing. The giving the hearing and learning comes from father and as a result those individuals come To the son.

The only other thing that was said concerning John chapter 6 is that All those all who are drawn are those who will believe freely on the basis of free will. I just want everyone to look at John 6 44 and Consider what's being said here.

No one has the ability To come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise a bump up on the last day actually means Everyone has the ability to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

Again the the the phrase is who do not. I not able and yet the traditions of men and I believe libertarian free will. Which you cannot find scripture anywhere is a tradition of man. It ignores biblical anthropology.

The tradition of man creates this ability to see Scriptures that say one thing and reverse them 180 degrees around. I think part of it is also seen in the assertion that this is Not fair. God's sovereignty is not fair.

That's exactly the opposition question that is given to the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 9. The person opposing the Apostles teaching says the same thing. You don't want to be in the position of the person who is opposing the Apostle the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the cry of the person who does not understand that God is the Potter and we are the clay. It isn't fair. It's mercy and grace. Grace and mercy are outside of strict categories of justice. If you want fairness, then you sin you die.

That's it. That's that's the end of fairness. We don't want fairness. We want mercy and grace and it is all to the glory of Jesus Christ. I actually heard and I was hoping that maybe I misunderstood this.

But I thought I heard the the statement that you are worthy despite all your sins. You are worthy. I Hope that's not what I heard. I don't think I understood it if that's what was said. That is as far from a biblical understanding of a person who's ready to hear the gospel of Christ as could be.

Once you understand that you are unworthy once that you are understand that you are worthy of nothing but eternal death and destruction. Then you're able to hear about a Savior who can save. Perfectly throughout this presentation.

We're told about you have the ability you have the ability. But I would remind you of what the scripture teaches. Not only is the Jesus teach in John chapter 6 the sovereignty of God and the inability of man.

But in Romans chapter 3 verse 11, we were told there is no God seeker. In Romans 8 7 through 8. We're told that no one has the ability to do what is pleasing to God and cannot submit themselves to the law of God.

In John 8 43 G is himself said that his opponents could not hear or Understand his words because they did not belong to God and that was because he said that he who commits sin is the slave of sin. You think a person who is enslaved to sin is in fact put in a position of being able to freely Free themselves from bondage to sin.

That seems to be what's being suggested. Acts 13 was in fact quoted at one point I would just simply point out that the end of that preaching is found in verse 48. Acts 13 48 when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing glorifying the word of the Lord and what does the scripture say and As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

See they Did believe they exercised their wills. Why them and not someone else was because they're better. Evidently if some choose and others don't that means the ones who go to heaven are better smarter more spiritually sensitive.

No, the only thing that separates those who receive punishment and those who receive Eternal life is grace. G-r-a-c-e as many as had been appointed to eternal life. Believed the appointment was the appointment of God the Father in line with John chapter 6.

All right, mr. Board up person if you would be so kind as to Give mr. Ruggiero the microphone and begin your five minutes as soon as you begin speaking, sir.

Okay, I'd like to respond to dr White 17 verse 30. In the times of this ignorance God winked at but now commanded all men everywhere to repent. That's fearing the Lord to exercise their own free will self known to the world.

John the Baptist. Shouted out to everyone repent. But the kingdom of God is at hand. God once again demands that we repent. Some men count slack not willing that any should perish. It's all about repentance.

Exercising our own free will to fear the Lord. And what does God remember. Enough fearing the Lord is a choice. Proverbs 1 dr. White didn't even proverbs 129 and it also Malachi chapter 3. Malachi 3 16 through 17 shows us the blessing bestowed upon us when we exercise our free will decision to fear the Lord.

Let's read Malachi 3 16 through 17 together. Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another and the Lord hearkened and a book of remembrance was written before him. For them that fear the Lord they put in the they're put into the book of life and that thought upon his name.

And I will spare them as a man spared Lord. God will bless you feel the need to do and do it yourself. You can't do it on your own. You can't you're a sinner. You're a sinner. Repent. Choice is pure 2514 to God showing us this covenant.

If you fear the Lord you will. 1034 course examination.

Already. Let's let's go ahead and and do that. Mr. Jarrell, could you tell me in John 6 37? Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me. Could you explain the relationship of the giving of the Father?

And the coming to the Son that is described in the first section of John 6 37, please.

Yes, yes all that fear the Lord will come. And where do you find the phrase fear the Lord in John 6 37. I don't it's not there. Okay, and certainly inherent in Psalm 25 14 and Proverbs 129.

So do you believe Jesus was drawing from those passages in John 6 37? Absolutely. Okay. So the fearing of the Lord then becomes the basis upon which the Father chooses those he's going to give to the Son.

Can you repeat that question, please. The fearing of the Lord. The Lord God sees who fears him and on that basis he gives People to the Son. Yes. Okay, and So you can fear the Lord but not come to Christ until the Father gives you you can fear the Lord.

Okay, you truly fear the Lord. If you truly fear the Lord only God knows the heart. Okay, I guess I just have to ask a direct question.

Why why did you agree to do a debate on John 6 37 through 45 when you didn't? Give an exegesis of John 6 37 to 45.

Well, you claimed and powerful that John 6 35 and that it's the very heart and soul of Calvinism. And I said I said to you in power talk last week that John 6 30 pieces of 2nd Timothy 3 16 ought to be given.

Okay, so based on 2nd Timothy 3 16. I'm challenging your position on John 6 35 to 45.

So you didn't understand that I was asking you to give an exegesis of John 6 35 to 45.

Absolutely, not. You never asked me to. I would said I would respond to your position on John 6 30. What my position.

Okay, verse 44 of John 6. You actually said that The one who comes to Christ is the is the the one who chooses and exercises his free will right?

John 6 44 reads no man can come to me except the father which had sent me draw him. Mm-hmm, that's correct based on your fear of the Lord. The father will draw you to the son and Psalm 20 25 14 is my support for that.

So what is no one can come to me means what does it mean?

No one can come to me until they exercise their free will to fear the Lord and.

You don't see that that is a incredible example of is a Jesus reading into the text something that's.

Completely and totally absent from the text not at all because psalm 25 14 Gives me the authority to connect fearing the Lord to God showing you his covenant. I see so and so this so this acts chapter 13 verse 13.

So you go to all these these passages and you do you interpret any of them in their context? Sure, but you're not interpreting John 6 in its context. I'm.

Interpreting the entire Bible within within.

But I've always been taught that yes, I and I teach that myself. But don't you start with the immediate context and follow a thought through? I mean you you you you say. That Jesus is words in John 6 44.