Who is "Drawn by the Father?"

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the
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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
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James White. And good evening and welcome to the Dividing Line this evening, a debate on John chapter 6, verses 35 through 45.
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I will be debating Mr. Louis Ruggiero, who is on the line, and here's how it's going to work.
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This is going to be a fairly quick introduction because we want to get as much discussion as we can this evening. Both speakers will have a particular period of time, 15 minutes, to make their case.
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Then I will be going first, then Mr. Ruggiero will go second, then we will have, and I apologize for doing this off the top of my head, we will have five minutes to respond to what the other individual said, again, the same order.
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Then we will have 10 minutes to cross -examine one another. I will be going first, asking
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Mr. Ruggiero questions, then he will be asking me questions for a total of 10 minutes, 10 minutes each, a total of 20 minutes.
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And then we'll have three -minute closing statements. Then we will be taking phone calls at 877 -753 -3341.
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Now write that number down, 877 -753 -3341, because I'm probably not going to be repeating it very often during the course of the program, obviously, 877 -753 -3341 is the toll -free number.
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We will open up the lines for your phone calls after the cross -examination period.
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So at the end of the cross -examination period, which will be the two 10 -minute segments, right before the three -minute closing statement.
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So you've pretty much heard the whole debate at that point, other than the closing statements. That's when we will open the phone lines, and you can get online to ask your questions.
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If you ask a question, please tell us who you are addressing it to, myself or Mr.
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Ruggiero, and the person to whom it is addressed will have 60 seconds to respond to your question, and then the other person will have 30 seconds to comment.
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Now, that means we're going to be able to get a lot of calls through. So make sure to have your fingers ready, and get online, and make the phone call, because we will probably be able to process you through.
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I may not be able to have your name and things like that, but we'll get as many of you through as is possible.
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And so this is a discussion that came out of PalTalk. Initially, another gentleman whose
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PalTalk ID is jademiner was going to do this, but he passed it off to Mr.
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Ruggiero. And so what I'm also going to do, because I did not receive any type of biographical information, is when
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Mr. Ruggiero's turn to do his opening statement comes, if it's okay with him, if he would like to have 60 seconds to introduce himself, where he's from, what his interests are, whatever he feels would be best, we'd be glad to do that, because I did not receive any particular biographical information that I can share with you.
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So we will make that time available after I make my 15 -minute opening presentation.
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So that's what the debate is about this evening on the dividing line. That's only about a three -minute introduction.
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That's not too bad as far as laying out the groundwork. And so with that,
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I will begin my time for my 15 -minute presentation on John chapter 6, verses 35 through 45.
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Obviously, John chapter 6 is central to the issues surrounding
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Calvinism and Arminianism, the Reformed faith. It is, I believe, one of the clearest, most compelling presentations of the freedom and sovereignty of God and salvation in all of Scripture.
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It has, as one of its advantages, the fact that it comes from the lips of the
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Lord Jesus Christ. And since it comes from His lips, though I do not believe that if it's in red letter it's more inspired than anything else, it does tend to speak to a very wide audience, some who do, in fact, harbor some feelings that if it's only found in Paul, then maybe someone's misunderstanding it.
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Of course, John chapter 6 is the longest chapter in the Gospel of John, and it is important to establish the context of this particular passage of Scripture.
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In John chapter 6, Jesus has fed the 5 ,000. That's 5 ,000 men, not including women and children.
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And here you have individuals who seek to make Jesus king. They see this particular kind of miracle.
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They recognize what power is represented by the Lord Jesus. They seek to make Him king. He, knowing this, and of course
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His disciples would know this as well, they would hear what the crowds were saying, He sends the crowds away, and He will not allow them to do the things that they want to do.
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Instead, He sends them away, and He sends the disciples away, even though the disciples are probably very disappointed by this particular activity on the part of the
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Lord Jesus. And then we have the disciples going across the lake, and Jesus coming to them in the storm, walking upon the water.
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And this miracle takes place. There may be another miracle that takes place, in that when Jesus gets in the boat, they're immediately on the other side.
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But the section that we're going to be looking at, John chapter 6, verses 35 -45, comes after this particular incident.
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Now we're in Capernaum, and we are in the synagogue in Capernaum, and the individuals who were on the other side of the lake, these individuals are now seeking
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Jesus. In fact, they are actually described as seeking Jesus. The very term that is used of someone searching someone else out, just like in Romans chapter 3, when it is said that there is no
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God seeker. Then we have the very same term used here. They are seeking after Jesus, and they find
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Him. These are individuals that from a modern perspective are the perfect people that you want to have in your church.
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They are the persons that you want to have involved in outreach and things like that.
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They're seeking after Jesus. But Jesus' response to them is very, very interesting. He recognizes that they are not really seeking after Him.
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They are looking for food. They are looking for the miracles. They do not recognize their spiritual need.
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And so we come to our passage, and here Jesus is speaking to that, and He says in verse 35,
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Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
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Jesus is presenting Himself as the living bread, the bread of life, as the one who can fulfill spiritual hunger and spiritual thirst.
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But then verse 36 says, but I said to you that you have seen me, and yet do not believe.
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So Jesus knows that these men are unbelievers. Even though they sought after Him, they sought after Him for the wrong reason.
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It's very important to recognize that in the rest of this passage, Jesus is explaining the unbelief of these men.
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There is no surprise that when you get to the end of John chapter 6, these men that Jesus knew were unbelievers are walking away from Jesus, and Jesus does not stop them.
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He does not say, oh guys, you misunderstood me. Please come back. Let me try to express it in another way. He doesn't do any of that.
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He knew they were unbelievers even when they were seeking Him and wanted to make Him king, because they were seeking
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Him for the wrong reason. And the rest of this passage is explaining this unbelief.
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How can these people who saw the miracles, who possessed the Word of God, who are standing in the very presence of the incarnate
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Son of God, how can they stand there in unbelief? The reason is given to us in verse 37.
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All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
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Here is Jesus' own explanation. If you really want to come to Jesus, and these people are not.
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They have sought after Him, but they are going to walk away. These are not individuals who are coming to Jesus.
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Something must happen first. The first phrase is, all that the Father gives me shall come to me.
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Every word is extremely important. All that the Father gives me, not some, not most, not a few, all that the
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Father gives me will come to me. Now which action comes first? This is the first important thing to write down.
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Write down on a piece of paper if you would. In this debate, who answers the question of the text itself, raised by verse 37, what is the relationship of the giving of the
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Father to coming to the Son? That is the whole debate between Calvinism and Arminianism, is it not?
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What is the relationship between God's sovereign selection or choice and man's action of believing in Christ?
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In John 6 .37, both are present. All that the Father gives me will come to me.
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Grammatically, logically, syntactically, and contextually, the giving of the
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Father precedes the coming of the individual to Christ. Why is this so important?
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Because obviously many people attempt to overthrow the testimony of this passage by saying, well, what's really going on here is
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God looks down the corridors of time, and on the basis of his foreknowledge, he sees who's going to choose him, and on that basis chooses them.
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But that's not what Jesus says here. The relationship from the Lord Jesus' lips, and remember, this is found offensive.
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This is found offensive by these men. They say it's a hard saying, who can understand it? The relationship is that all that the
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Father gives me will come to me. It is the Father's giving that determines the coming of the individual in belief and faith to Jesus Christ.
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A person must first be given by the Father to the Son, and as a result, when the
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Holy Spirit works in that person's life, that person will come in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ.
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That person who is given by the Father will, without question, come to Christ.
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Not to anyone else, not to another religion, but to Christ and Him alone. And the one who comes to me,
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I will certainly not cast out. What a beautiful promise. So many of us hold this so carefully.
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We can never be cast out by our Savior, but why is that?
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That's the second half of a sentence. So many people want to have this promise, but they don't want the theology upon which it is based.
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It is based upon the assertion that the Father has sovereign authority to give a specific people unto the
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Son. Do all people come to Christ? No, all people do not come to Christ. Hence, those who are given is a limited group.
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It is not every single individual. We do not believe in universalism. All that the
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Father gives me will come to me, and that is why the one who comes to me, and we do come to Christ. I have believed in Jesus Christ, but I believe in Jesus Christ because God in His infinite mercy in eternity past set
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His love upon me, and at a time of His choosing, freed me from the bondage of sin and gave me the gift of faith so that I may indeed believe in the
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Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus will not cast that one out. Then in verses 38 and 39, as time is fleeting, we have
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Jesus' own words concerning the will of the Father. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.
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And this is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
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And so here is this group of people, the ones given by the Father to the Son. Here it's placed in the perfect tense, so this is referring to that eternal giving of the
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Father to the Son, and it is the Father's will for the Son that He lose none of those that are given to Him.
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None! Now this means Jesus must be a perfect Savior. He must be a
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Savior who is capable, in and of Himself, of accomplishing the Father's will. And the
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Father's will for Him is that He lose none of those that are given to Him. Obviously, all forms of synergism, all forms of belief where man's will and man's faith outside of the work of the
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Spirit of God are made the deciding factor, and Jesus wants to save and tries to save, but fails to save, those beliefs crash upon the rocks of the clear statement of verses 38 and 39 that the
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Savior, that Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior. He has the capacity to save those given to Him.
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Now what is the result then? People many times will go to verse 40, they'll skip verses 37 through 39, they'll skip the flow of thought, they'll go to verse 40, for this is the will of my
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Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I myself will raise
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Him up on the last day. That is very true, but please notice that the beholding and the believing are present tense.
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These are the results of the work of the Spirit within our life. Everyone who is drawn by the
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Father will indeed behold the Son and believe in Him, and notice then
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Jesus says, I myself will raise Him up on the last day. That was at the end of verse 39, at the end of verse 37 we have,
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I will certainly not cast Him out. Keep those in mind, because they're very important. Well the Jews don't like this, and they grumble.
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They don't like Him saying He's the bread of heaven, and Jesus answers in verse 43 and says to them, do not grumble among yourselves, no one can come to Me unless the
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Father who sent Me draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day. There's that same phrase, who does
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He raise up on the last day? In verses 37 and 39 and 40, that work is
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His raising up on the last day, those given to Him by the Father. Verse 44 says, no one can come to Me unless the
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Father who sent Me draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day. Here's the next big thing to write down.
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Upon what basis are we to believe, if we are to believe at all, that the one who is raised up in verse 44 is different than the one who is drawn by the
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Father? Why is that important? Because the only way to get around what this passage is teaching is to try to say, well, everyone's drawn up, isn't that what
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John 12, 32 says? Go to another context, ignore that context and what it actually means, bring it back here to John chapter 6, verse 44, and say, well, everyone's drawn up, so this doesn't really mean anything.
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That's not the case. All that the Father gives Me is the same as no one is able to come to Me unless the
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Father who sent Me draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the last day. Who is drawn by the
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Father to the Son? Those given by the Father to the Son, and all those who are drawn are raised up on the last day.
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Very very important. The parallel then, notice verse 45 then restates this, it is written in the
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Prophets, and they shall all be taught of God, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
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Well, where have we seen that phrase comes to Me before? We saw it in verse 37, all the Father gives
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Me shall come to Me. We saw it in verse 44, no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws
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Him. So what is this learning and hearing from the Father? It's the same thing as being drawn by the
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Father, and who is it that hears and learns? Who is it that is drawn? Those that are given by the
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Father to the Son. And so we have a perfect balance, we have a perfect consistency throughout this passage.
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Well then, what's the issue? Well the issue is Jesus' teaching here runs directly opposite of the traditions of men.
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Anyone who wants to hold on to the libertarian concept of free will will run directly into this particular passage.
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Not only does it make God sovereign in the matter of salvation, and man the object of the perfect work of Christ, hence
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He has no ground of boasting. He has no ground to say, I'm the one, I by my will chose to do this over against those people in hell.
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They didn't, and so I'm better. Nothing like that at all. It cuts all the ground out from underneath boasting, and verse 44 especially is to many people extremely offensive.
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No one is able, is literally what Jesus says, udais dunatai. No one has the capacity to come to me unless the
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Father does something. And you see, that is what is so tremendously offensive to those who believe that God did most everything, but He is totally controlled by my final decision.
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God tries, and He tries, and He tries, and He tries, but it's up to me to enable
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Him to save me by my act of quote -unquote free will. John 6, 44 is directly contrary to the concept of free will, and therefore this whole passage, its emphasis upon the sovereign freedom of God in giving a people unto the
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Son, not based upon anything they do, but in fact their action of coming to Christ is independent upon His having given them the freedom of God, the sovereignty of God, the sufficiency of Christ as Savior, and the inability of man that is so clearly and bluntly stated by the
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Lord Jesus. And notice at the end of this chapter, verses 65 and following, Jesus keeps repeating that statement, and that is why men turn around and walk away.
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They are offended. They were offended then, and unfortunately many people are offended by the truth of this passage today as well.
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So that is my presentation on the subject of John chapter 6. We will now reset our clock here, and I will ask our board operator to bring
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Mr. Ruggiero online. Are you there, sir? Yes, I am. All right. And were you able to hear me well enough,
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I hope? Yes, I was. I'd like to use one minute to introduce myself before my time starts. Okay. You go ahead and do that.
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To the listeners out there, my name is Louis Ruggiero, as Dr. White. So I've been a
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Christian apologist for about four years, and I've studied the Bible for about 12. I'm a co -author with a good friend of mine named
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John McTernan, and a book that just came out, Jesus of Nazareth, King Messiah. I'm a
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Christian apologist. I've debated Orthodox Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Preterists, and I guess now
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Calvinists. So that's my bio, and keeping that in mind,
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I'd like to start my time. Okay, sir. You have 15 minutes. You may begin. Well, Dr.
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White's text of Jesus on John chapter 6, verse 35 through 45, sounds very impressive, and it may very well be true if it agreed with the
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Scriptures. A sovereign election, a sovereign council, God decides our fate, our eternal destiny on His own, where we have no input.
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Is that Scriptural? Let's find out if it's Scriptural. Do I have the right to do this? Do I have the right to test
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Dr. White's position using the Scriptures? Well, 2 Timothy chapter 3, verse 16 gives me the right.
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This is what it says in 2 Timothy 3, verse 16. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
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So I have the right to attempt to correct Dr. White's position, because 2 Timothy 3, verse 16 gives me that right, and I need to use the
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Scriptures to do that. Sovereign election, sovereign council. Well, the Scriptures teach that we, through our own free will, determine our eternal destiny.
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And I'm going to illustrate that, beginning right now. John chapter 6, verse 45, the last verse in the 11 verses that Dr.
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White illustrated, says as follows, It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God.
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Every man, therefore, that had heard and had learned of the Father cometh unto me.
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Learned of the Father. Learned of the Father. What does learned of the Father mean? Learned of the
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Father means having knowledge, correct? Learned of the Father requires having knowledge. How can we be learned of the
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Father, and not have knowledge? How do we get that knowledge? Well, Proverbs chapter 1, verse 7, tells us how we begin to acquire knowledge.
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Proverbs 1, verse 7 says, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
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But fools despise wisdom and instruction. What's the fear of the Lord? Does the Bible give me the definition of the fear of the
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Lord? It does, in Proverbs chapter 8, verse 13. The fear of the
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Lord is to hate evil, pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way and the froward mouth.
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The Bible gives us a definition of the fear of the Lord, and some of you out there might say, Well, so why? Well, the fear of the
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Lord is the theme of my position today. The fear of the
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Lord is a choice. What does it say in the Scriptures that the fear of the
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Lord is a choice? Let's continue in Proverbs chapter 1 and find out. We pick up in verse 23.
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Turn you with my reproof. Behold, I will pour out my Spirit unto you. I will make known my words unto you.
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What does it say in John 6, verse 45? Every man therefore that had heard and had learned of the
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Father cometh unto me. I will make known my words unto you. Proverbs 123.
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We go to verse 24. Because I have called, and ye refused, I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded.
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And ye refused means they could have accepted, but they refused. There's the choice indicator right there.
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We continue in verse 27. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind, when distress and anguish cometh upon you, then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer.
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They shall seek me early, but they shall not find me. Verse 29 is critical.
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For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord. The fear of the
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Lord, ladies and gentlemen, is a choice. A free will choice that we make, that God gave us.
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God gave us all the innate ability to fear Him or not to fear
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Him. The free will choice of fearing the Lord leads to our own eternal salvation.
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If we fear the Lord, we will be saved. If we reject the fear of the
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Lord and do not fear the Lord, we will not be saved. You might ask, what does it say in scripture that fear of the
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Lord leads to the Son? Let's go to Psalm chapter 25, verse 12 through 14.
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Let's read it together. Psalm 25, 12 through 14. What man is he that feareth the
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Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. There's the teach again, learned of the
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Father. Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. Verse 13, his soul shall dwell at ease, and his seed shall inherit the earth.
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Verse 14 is critical. Psalm 25, 14. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear
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Him, and He will show them His covenant. The secret of the
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Lord is with them that fear Him, and He will show them His covenant. What's His covenant?
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Romans 11, 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
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Who's the covenant? Matthew 26, 26 through 28. The words of Jesus Christ Himself.
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And as they were eating, Jesus took the bread and blessed it, and break it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat.
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This is my body. And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it.
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For this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sin.
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To summarize so far, the fear of the Lord is a choice that we're all given.
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Proverbs 1, 29. It leads to God showing us His covenant.
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Psalm 25, 14. And what is His covenant? His covenant is when He shall take away our sins.
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Romans 11, 27. And the covenant is His Son. Through our free will choice to fear the
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Lord, God shows us the Son. You might say to me,
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Show me some New Testament scriptures where it says that the covenant is given to only those who fear the
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Lord, who exercise their free will to fear the Lord. Acts chapter 13, verse 23 to 26.
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I'll give you a second to turn there. Acts 13, 23 to 26. Of this man, as David's seed, had
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God, according to His promise, raised unto Israel a Savior, Jesus. When John had first preached before His coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel, and as John fulfilled his course, he said,
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Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet
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I am not worthy to loose. Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth
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God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. And whosoever among you feareth
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God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. It's a free will choice.
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If you make the choice to fear the Lord, God will show you His covenant. This undermines the very concept of Calvinism.
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It places our own choice at the head, at the starting line, that leads to the cross.
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And past the cross is eternal life. Acts chapter 10, verse 34 and 35.
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Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.
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But in every nation, he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
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Notice the fear again. I'll read Acts 10, 34 -35 for you again. Then Peter opened his mouth and said,
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Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation, he that feareth
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Him, he that exercises their free will choice, according to Proverbs 129, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
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It's a choice. It's all about choice. Dr. White said this is John 6, 37. It's the core of the passage.
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Let's read John 6, 37 again together. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.
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And in that coming to me I will no wise cast out. That's right. It's true. All the scriptures are true.
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But I say to you, all that the Father gives Jesus are all those who make the free will choice to fear the
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Lord. Proverbs 129. Fear of the Lord is a choice.
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Psalm 25, 14. Fear of the Lord, God will show you His covenant. Romans 11, 27.
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And this is His covenant. When He shall take away our sins. Matthew 26, 26 -28.
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The Son is the covenant. Through His own words. Dr. White quoted
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John 6, 44. Another important verse in the passage.
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All that are drawn and given by the Father are those that make the free will decision to fear the
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Lord. It begins with our choice. God is a fair God. God is not going to create individuals and say, through my own sovereign election or sovereign counsel, they will not be saved.
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And through my own sovereign election or sovereign counsel, this one will have everlasting life.
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That's not fair. Dr. White says, well, that's very fair. Well, no,
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I don't think that's fair. We all have a choice to decide and make decisions with respect to our own eternal destiny.
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Are we saved? We make the choice. And everyone out there. Fear of the
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Lord. Do you fear the Lord? Do you fear the Lord today? If you fear the Lord, you repent. Repentance goes with fearing the
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Lord. Let's go back to the definition of fearing the Lord. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. Do you hate evil?
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Do you hate your sin? Repent. Remove the pride. Remove the arrogancy. Humble yourself before the
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Lord God of Israel. Come to the cross. God will show you. It's your decision.
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Don't think that I've been so hard and I've committed all these crimes and I've sinned. And I'm not worthy.
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You are worthy. Just repent. Fear the Lord. Choose to fear the Lord today.
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And you'll be saved. It's as easy as that. I'm not sure if my 15 minutes are up yet.
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Dr. White? Yes, sir. You have 4 minutes left. I do have 4 minutes left. Let's use the children of Israel as an example.
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In Exodus chapter 24, when Moses read the book of the covenant, they said all that the Lord has said we will do.
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And obey it. They chose to fear the Lord. And God blessed them. Well, what happened?
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Sooner or later, they chose not to fear the Lord. And Isaiah 1 forces, our sinful nation of people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters.
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They have forsaken the Lord. God took away their knowledge because fear of the Lord is related to knowledge.
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Isaiah 29, 13 through 14, we use the children of Israel as an example. It could have been anyone.
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God chose Israel, but it could have been any nation because we all have been inherent bent to sin.
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So let's use the children of Israel as an example because their history is outlined in the Old Testament.
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Isaiah 29, 13 through 14 because Israel chose not to fear the Lord. God took away their knowledge.
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Isaiah 29, 13 through 14 wherefore the Lord said forasmuch as these people draw near me with their mouth and with their lips do honor me but have removed their heart far from me and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men therefore behold
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I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people even a marvelous work and a wonder for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish and the understanding of their prudent heart their prudent men shall be hid.
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God removed the knowledge of the children of Israel because they chose not to fear the Lord. Hence most of them missed their
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Messiah 2 ,000 years ago. But they're coming back. They're coming back.
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They're coming back one at a time. Do we choose to fear the Lord? 1 Samuel 12, 14 -15
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Look at the choice here. 1 Samuel 12, 14 -15 If you will fear the
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Lord and serve Him and obey His voice and not rebel against the commandment of the
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Lord then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the Lord your
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God but if you will not obey the voice of the Lord but rebel against the commandment of the
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Lord then shall the hand of the Lord be against you as it was against your fathers. There's the choice. If you fear the
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Lord, you obey His voice. If you don't fear the Lord, you don't obey His voice. The word draw in John 6, 44
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It's really pretty much of a moot point. It really means to impel spiritually.
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It means to drag. It could mean to impel spiritually. But the fact of the matter is it really doesn't matter anymore because it all starts without choice to fear the
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Lord. If you choose to fear the Lord you will obey Him. There's no dragging taking place because you obey.
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You just do it because you want to do it. You come to the cross God shows you the covenant and you're saved.
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It's your choice. God gives you that choice and every man and woman is given the inherent choice and the ability to fear the
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Lord and not to fear the Lord. Do you have five minutes?
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Yes. The next section of the debate is five minute responses and my time will begin right now.
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Well, unfortunately the debate challenge that I had issued initially was to present the exegesis of John 6, 35 -45
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We have only heard one exegesis of John 6 We have heard a presentation of a semi -Pelagian anthropology and a perspective on libertarian free will but we have not had almost anything on John 6.
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John 6, 45 is hearing and learning from the Father. As I pointed out in my presentation that is a direct parallel of being drawn by the
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Father that was not refuted in the response because all those who hear and learn from the
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Father the Father is the source of this the drawing, the giving, the hearing and learning come from the Father and as a result those individuals come to the
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Son. The only other thing that was said concerning John 6 is that all who are drawn are those who will believe freely on the basis of free will.
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I just want everyone to look at John 6, 44 and consider what is being said here
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No one has the ability to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise a bump up on the last day actually means everyone has the ability to come to me unless the
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Father who sent me draws him. Again the phrase is u dunatai, not able and yet the traditions of men and I believe libertarian free will which you cannot find in scripture anywhere is a tradition of man it ignores biblical anthropology the tradition of man creates this ability to see scriptures that say one thing and reverse them 180 degrees around.
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I think part of it is also seen in the assertion that this is not fair. God's sovereignty is not fair.
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That's exactly the opposition question that is given to the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 9.
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The person opposing the Apostle's teaching says the same thing. You don't want to be in the position of the person who is opposing the
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Apostle the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the cry of the person who does not understand that God is the potter and we are the clay
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It isn't fair It's mercy and grace Grace and mercy are outside of strict categories of justice
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If you want fairness then you sin, you die. That's it. That's the end of fairness.
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We don't want fairness. We want mercy and grace. And it is all to the glory of Jesus Christ. I actually heard and I was hoping that maybe
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I misunderstood this, but I thought I heard the statement that you are worthy.
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Despite all your sins you are worthy. I hope that's not what I heard. I don't think I understood it.
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If that's what was said that is as far from a biblical understanding of a person who is ready to hear the gospel of Christ as could be.
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Once you understand that you are unworthy. Once you understand that you are worthy of nothing but eternal death and destruction, then you are able to hear about a savior who can save perfectly.
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Throughout this presentation we are told about you have the ability, you have the ability, but I would remind you of what the scripture teaches.
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Not only does Jesus teach in John chapter 6 the sovereignty of God and the inability of man but in Romans chapter 3 verse 11 we are told there is no
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God seeker In Romans 8, 7 -8 we are told that no one has the ability to do what is pleasing to God and cannot submit themselves to the law of God.
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In John 8, 43 Jesus himself said that his opponents could not hear or understand his words because they did not belong to God.
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And that was because he said that he who commits sin is the slave of sin. You think a person who is enslaved to sin is in fact put in a position of being able to freely free themselves from bondage to sin?
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That seems to be what is being suggested. Acts 13 was in fact quoted at one point I would just simply point out that the end of that preaching is found in verse 48
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Acts 13, 48 when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord and what does the scripture say?
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And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed
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See they did believe they exercised their wills.
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Why them and not someone else? Was it because they're better? Evidently if some choose and others don't that means the ones who go to heaven are better, smarter, more spiritually sensitive?
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No. The only thing that separates those who receive punishment and those who receive eternal life is grace.
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G -R -A -C -E As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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The appointment was the appointment of God the Father in line with John chapter 6
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Alright Mr. Bordopp person if you would be so kind as to give Mr.
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Ruggiero the microphone and begin your five minutes as soon as you begin speaking sir. Okay I'd like to respond to Dr.
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White Those who exercised their choice to repent because they feared the
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Lord were saved. Acts 17 verse 30 God winked at but now commanded all men everywhere to repent.
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That's fearing the Lord. To exercise their own free will to fear the Lord. Before Jesus before Jesus made himself known to the world
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John the Baptist shouted out to everyone repent for the kingdom of God is at hand repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand repent exercise your own free will to fear the
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Lord and repent that was those are the ones those who repent are saved.
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The blood that was supplied would be supplied at the crucifixion the blood would be supplied at the cross.
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Repentance is what was necessary 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9
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God once again demands that we repent 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9 let's turn that together this is what it says the
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Lord is not slack concerning His promises some men count slackness but His longsuffering to us were not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance it's all about repentance exercising our own free will to fear the
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Lord and what does God do to those who exercise their own free will to fear
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Him remember now fearing the Lord is a choice Proverbs 129 which my worthy opponent
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Dr. White didn't even address the fact that we have a choice to fear the Lord Proverbs 129 is the most important passage the most important verse against Calvinism it shows fear of the
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Lord is a choice and it also shows that fear of the Lord is at the starting point that leads to the cross and past the cross, eternal life
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Malachi chapter 3 verse 16 and 17 Malachi 3 16 -17 shows us the blessing bestowed upon us when we exercise our free will decision to fear the
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Lord let's read Malachi 3, 16 -17 together, then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another and the
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Lord hearkened and heard it and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the
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Lord, they're put into the book of life and that thought upon His name verse 17 and they shall be mine sayeth the
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Lord of hosts in that day when I make up my jewels and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him, that's what happens when you exercise your own free will to fear the
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Lord, God will bless you you fear the Lord and obey His voice, that's all you need to do hate your sin remove the arrogance and the pride from you realize you can't do it yourself, humble yourself before the
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Holy God of Israel knowing that you can't do it on your own, you can't achieve perfection on your own you're a sinner, you're a sinner repent, and the kingdom of God is at hand
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Dr. White doesn't address the choice issue that's clearly outlined in Proverbs 1, 29
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Proverbs 30 verse 5 says, every word of God is pure, Proverbs 1, 29 is pure to those who oppose
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Calvinism because it shows that the fear of the Lord is a choice and it begins there and Psalm 25, 14 tells us that the fear of the
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Lord leads to God showing us His covenant, if you fear the Lord, you will obey His voice and God won't have to drag you anywhere, you will go to the cross you will go to the cross it all begins with choice, ladies and gentlemen there's no sovereign election there's no sovereign will being forced upon anyone, nobody's special Acts 10, 34 says,
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God is no respecter of persons, it's up to you, the choice is yours
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Dr. White, I'm ready for your 10 minute course examination Alrighty let's go ahead and do that Mr.
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Gero, could you tell me, in John 6 37, Jesus says, all that the
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Father gives me will come to me could you explain the relationship of the giving of the
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Father and the coming to the Son that is described in the first section of John 6 37, please.
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All that the Father give me will come to me? Yes Yes, all that fear the Lord will come, the
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Father gives to the Son And where do you find the phrase fear the Lord in John 6, 37? I don't, it's not there but it's certainly inherent in Psalm 25, 14 and Proverbs 129
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So do you believe Jesus was drawing from those passages in John 6, 37? Absolutely Okay So, the fearing of the
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Lord then becomes the basis upon which the Father chooses those he's going to give to the
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Son? Can you repeat that question, please? The fearing of the Lord God sees who fears him and on that basis he gives people to the
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Son? Yes Okay, and so you can fear the Lord but not come to Christ until the
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Father gives you? You can fear the Lord and be guaranteed that you're going to come to the
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Son, because the Father will draw you if you truly fear the
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Lord If you truly fear the Lord, only God knows the heart Okay, I guess
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I just have to ask a direct question. Why did you agree to do a debate on John 6, 37 -45 when you didn't give an exegesis of John 6, 37 -45?
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Well, you claimed in Pow Talk that John 6, 35 -45 is the core of Calvinism, and that it's the very heart and soul of Calvinism and I said to you in Pow Talk last week that John 6, 35 -45 doesn't support
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Calvinism at all and I would prove that using the Scriptures, and I can do that on the basis of 2
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Timothy 3 -16, that all Scriptures are to be given by inspiration of God for correction
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So based on 2 Timothy 3 -16 I'm challenging your position on John 6, 35 -45.
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So you didn't understand that I was asking you to give an exegesis of John 6, 35 -45? Absolutely not.
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You never asked me to I said I would respond to your position on John 6, 35 -45 using the Scriptures to support my position
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Okay, verse 44 of John 6, you actually said that the one who comes to Christ is the one who chooses and exercises his free will, right?
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John 6, 44 reads, no man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him.
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That's correct based on your fear of the Lord, the Father will draw you to the Son, and Psalm 25 -14 is my support for that.
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So what does, no one can come to me means? What does it mean? No one can come to me until they exercise their free will to fear the
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Lord And you don't see that that is a incredible example of exegesis reading into the text something that's completely and totally absent from the text?
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Not at all because Psalm 25 -14 gives me the authority to connect fearing the Lord to God showing you
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His covenant I see, so and so does Acts 13 verse Acts 13, let me go get the verse here, verse 23 -26 and Acts 10 34 -35.
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So you go to all these passages and do you interpret any of them in their context?
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Sure. But you're not interpreting John 6 in its context I'm interpreting the entire Bible within, see
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Scripture interprets Scripture and verse interprets verse. I've always been taught that Yes, and I teach that myself but don't you start with the immediate context and follow a thought through?
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I mean, you say that Jesus' words in John 6 -44, no one can come to me unless they exercise their free will to fear the
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Lord and as a result the Father who sent me will draw them isn't that what you just basically said?
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That's what the Scriptures teach, I'm not saying it, the Scriptures are saying it. Ok, why would that have offended the
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Jews? That's what they believed. Well the Jews thought, who is this man thinking that he has any part in eternal salvation?
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Who is he, God? In verse 65 he keeps repeating this and says no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him from the
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Father, that's why they turned around and left. Can you find anywhere in the
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Bible the phrase free will decision? Yeah, Proverbs 1 -29.
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Could you quote the phrase free will decision there? Choice, choice is free will. So that's, so you interpret that, but if I said if I disagree with that then and point out to you that there's, for example, how do you understand
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Romans chapter 3, it says there is no fear of God before their eyes. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom there's no fear of God before their eyes, how can they make right choices?
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Well, what verse is that in Romans chapter 3? Romans chapter 3, verses 17 and 18. Oh, Romans chapter 3, verses 17 and 18 are referring to all those who do evil.
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Romans chapter 3, verses 17 and 18 are also referring to all those who don't fear the Lord, who do evil.
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So you don't believe that that is all mankind? No, it refers to all those who do not choose to fear the
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Lord. Look what it says in verse 18, there is no fear of God before their eyes. Obviously, some men have feared the
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Lord, and have exercised their free will to fear the Lord, correct? Do you realize, I don't believe in free will, sir,
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I believe the only people who fear the Lord and make right choices are those who have been regenerated by the grace of God.
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So, how then, if you believe that Romans 3, 10 through 18, is not about all men, then how do you then connect that with verses 19 and 20 and the presentation of justification?
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For the people who fear the Lord, there's no need of justification, is there? I'm sorry? For the people who fear the
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Lord, there's no need of justification, they already have their righteousness, don't they? Well, Romans 18, verse 18 tells us that it's regarding those who do not fear the
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Lord. Obviously, there are men who do fear the Lord, who did fear the Lord, who weren't regenerated.
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Job is a perfect example, Job 1 .1. So, Job was a spiritually dead man who feared the
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Lord. What does Job 1 .1 say? I mean, I'll ask you that during my cross -examination.
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Glad to. So, are you aware, sir, that the position you're presenting is historically known as Pelagianism?
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The position I'm displaying is scriptural. Whatever name you want to give it, that's up to you.
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So, you're not familiar with those issues? I don't need to be familiar with those issues. I'm familiar with what the scriptures teach.
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That's all I need to be made familiar with. And how would you test whether your view of free will, which you're inserting into all these passages, what if you were wrong about that?
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Well, then the Bible's wrong about it. So, your understanding and the Bible are the same thing?
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You couldn't be wrong. Well, unless you show me wrong. I haven't seen you challenge the church when
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Proverbs 1 .29. How could someone show you that you're wrong? Upon what basis, given what you've said here?
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If I were to go to Proverbs 1 .29 and say, everyone that I know of believes that we make choices.
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The problem is that he who is a slave of sin, he who commits sin is a slave of sin, and therefore the choices he's going to make are going to be dependent upon his corrupted will, and therefore not free choices.
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If I were to say that, how could you test that, given that you've established your own position as your final authority?
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Well, I'm not here to establish a position. I'm just here to illustrate to those listening in that they have their own choice with respect to their own eternal salvation.
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Okay. So, again, I come back to the main issue. If I can't go to any passage here in John 6 and say, well, what does this text mean?
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And you will say, for example, well, it means, and then you can insert an entire sentence worth of material into it.
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How could I ever show you that you're wrong? Because any text I could take you to, Romans 9, Romans 8,
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Ephesians 1, it doesn't matter where I go. All you have to do is insert your tradition into the text, and now it says what you say the whole
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Bible says. How could you ever be proven wrong? By using the Scriptures to support your position. But I just, sir, what
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I'm asking you is, when you can insert openly, and without even apology, entire concepts into singular phrases that are nowhere in the text at all, they're not referenced, they're not alluded to, there's not even a mention of them, then any passage that I would use to substantiate my position, you can do the same thing to that, your position.
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For example, you use Romans 3 as an example. I showed you that in Romans 3, it says there is no fear of God before there is.
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And now you're saying that no man fears God. And I showed you Job 1 .1. That's my response. That Job feared the
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Lord. I'll use Cornelius as a response. Acts 10 .1 -2, Cornelius feared the Lord. So obviously, we're not talking about every man not fearing the
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Lord. Some men choose to fear, some men choose not to fear. Is it possible that for both Job and Cornelius, the pre -existing work of the
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Holy Spirit of God by His grace was what allowed them to do what they did?
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Well, can you show me a Scripture on that? I'd be happy to look at it. Show me where Job or when
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I cross -examine you, I'll ask you to show me that. That would probably be the best way to do it. Well, unfortunately, we
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I don't see any use in continuing with asking you questions on John 6 because we're really not on that subject.
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Before you begin your 10 -minute cross -examination, so that our board op has time to screen and to do the things it needs to do, we will open up the phone lines at 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341
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No, that doesn't spell anything. It's just a bunch of numbers. 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number for you to call for the questions that we will be able to get to fairly quickly.
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I don't know how many we're gonna be able to get to, but you need to be online. Do not wait. If you're gonna call, call now.
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Because if you wait to the end, we're probably not gonna be able to get to you. So you need to call now. If the phone becomes busy, keep trying.
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We'll get to you as soon as we can. We have the 10 minute here, and then a total of six minutes after that.
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So we'll be looking at about 10 minutes after the hour that we'll be able to get started. And so start calling now.
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Last time, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.
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All right, go ahead, sir. Okay, Dr. White, I'd like to start my course examination. I know I have 10 minutes. Dr. White, I have a question for you.
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Do you believe that all scriptures are true? All scriptures are theanoustos. They are God -breathed.
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Okay, and for example, it says in Proverbs 30, verse five, every word of God is pure.
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I'm sure you agree with that. Of course. Okay. It says in Proverbs 129 that fear of the
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Lord is a choice. Do you agree with that? It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord. Right, okay, do you agree with that?
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Of course. So they could have chose not to fear the Lord? Actually, it's simply describing the fact that they did not choose the fear of the
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Lord. All sinners are that way, sir. Okay, they did not choose the fear of the Lord, so they could have chose to fear the Lord.
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If you're asking me that, I would say no, sir, not outside of God's grace. Okay, they couldn't have chose to fear the Lord, and by what means? Outside of God's grace, no.
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By what reason do you give that they did not choose the fear of the Lord? Because the clear teaching of scripture that to do spiritual good in God's sight, according to Romans 8, seven through eight, requires the enablement of God to do so for all the fallen sons of Adam, because the fallen sons of Adam are not able to do what is pleasing in God's sight.
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Okay, okay, I understand your position on that. Now, keeping that in mind, let's go to Job chapter one, verse one, which
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I said I would question you on. It says in Job one, one, the following. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was
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Job, and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God and eschewed evil.
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It says in Job one, one, that Job feared God. Yes. Can you show me a verse to show that there was some kind of regeneration being done in Job before he feared
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God? No, I cannot. Okay, you cannot, okay. So your position regarding Job cannot be supported with the scriptures that Job was regenerated.
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No, sir, my answer to you would be that Job does not address the issue of how Job became a
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God -fearing man, what sustained him in his God -fearingness, or anything else. Okay, so you're assuming.
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I go to the passages of scripture that actually address those issues. Okay, so you're assuming that there was a regeneration done. I actually allow all of scripture to address the subject, and since that passage only describes
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Job and does not answer the question of how he became that way, then I go to passages that actually address the subject being addressed.
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Okay, and let's look at Cornelius in Acts chapter 10, verse one through two.
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Yes. It says there was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of a band called the Italian Band, a devout man, and one that feared
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God with all his house. It says in Acts chapter 10, verse one through two that Cornelius feared
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God, correct? Yes. Can you show me any scripture to support that Cornelius was somehow regenerated?
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I don't believe that he was until the point of the preaching of the gospel to him. The term
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God fears is very well known as Gentiles who were attracted to the synagogue worship.
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They were individuals who had an attraction to the Old Testament scriptures, and they were, in fact, a very important element of the evangelistic outreach of the early church, and this is what
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Cornelius was, and that's why God went through so much, including visions to Peter and angelic visitations to bring someone to preach the gospel to him because he needed to hear the gospel so that he might be saved.
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So he feared God, but the regeneration process took place before regarding Cornelius?
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Can you just? Again, I just mentioned, maybe you didn't hear me. The term God -fearer is a specific technical term that is used by Luke of those non -Jewish individuals who attended synagogue service and were attracted to the things of the scriptures.
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This is a description of his demeanor. It is not a description of whether he was or was not yet regenerate, the point being that we are born again by the word of God.
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God brought the word of God to him via Peter. If he had already been regenerated, there would be no reason to have
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Peter come and preach the gospel to him whereby he might be saved. Does it say God -fearer in Acts chapter 10, verse one through two, or does it say that he feared
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God? Well, the term is used either way by Luke. It does. Where does it say God -fearer?
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Anywhere in the New Testament? I do not have a list in front of me, but I would be glad to look them up for you and provide them to you.
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Well, yes, can you please do that? I don't see God -fearer at all in the New Testament. I see feared
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God. Just for everyone out there, Cornelius feared God. It says that in Acts 10, one through two.
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Job feared God, yet Dr. White can't show a position that Job was somehow regenerated.
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Is that a question or just a rhetorical? I'm sorry, I'm just thinking to myself over here.
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The regeneration process, does that take place before you receive Christ or after you receive Christ? I'm sorry?
01:00:02
The regeneration process, does that take place before you receive Christ or after? I don't believe in a process.
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It is a sovereign act of God whereby he draws a person out of spiritual life, out of spiritual death into spiritual life.
01:00:16
It is part and parcel of the work of the Holy Spirit of God. It results in all saving graces, including saving faith and repentance.
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So does it take place before one receives Christ or after one receives Christ? It is part of the entire work of being united with Christ.
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I don't believe you can put a temporal order in regards to, quote -unquote, receiving
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Christ. Well, okay, let's give an example. A teenage boy or girl doesn't know
01:00:46
Christ yet, but he's one of the elect, according to you. When does the regeneration process take place? Does it take place before they know
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Jesus Christ or after they know Jesus Christ? Well, again, first of all, we don't know who the elect are.
01:00:58
A, B, you are asking a theoretical question without any specific substance to it.
01:01:04
It's hard to answer your question. C, the point would be that God sovereignly brings about spiritual regeneration, gives this person the gifts of faith and repentance.
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He does this normally through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So that that faith is placed in Jesus Christ.
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And if you're talking about an order of this, it is normally an instantaneous thing.
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From God's perspective, there is a much more clear and perceptible order to the various steps as found in Romans 8, verses 29 through 30.
01:01:36
Well, Dr. White, regeneration really basically means born again, correct? Yes.
01:01:41
Okay, so you're saying that it's possible for one to be born again before they receive Christ? No, I'm saying that it is all part and parcel of the same divine work.
01:01:49
Okay, so is it possible that, are you claiming that it's possible that Cornelius could have been born again before he actually received
01:01:56
Christ? I actually said the opposite of that because I pointed out that the reason that Peter was sent to him was to preach the gospel to him.
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We are born again through the preaching of the message of Jesus Christ. That is the mechanism that God normally uses to draw us unto himself.
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Okay, Titus chapter three, verse five through seven. And I wanna read this for you and I'm gonna ask you if this pretty much locks it that being regenerated is actually directly related to receiving
01:02:23
Christ. Titus chapter three, verse five through seven. Not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
01:02:33
Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
01:02:44
Dr. White, I ask you a question. Is it possible to be regenerated without having a relationship with Jesus Christ?
01:02:49
I've already said at least five or six times that these are contemporaneous events, so you're tilting in a windmill here.
01:02:55
Of course, it's a simple yes, no question. Is it possible to be regenerated without having a relationship with Jesus Christ?
01:03:02
I've already said three or four times, sir, that you do not understand what I've said. I'll try one more time. This is a work of the
01:03:08
Holy Spirit of God whereby through the gospel, which contains the revelation of who
01:03:14
Jesus Christ is, a person turns and believes on Jesus Christ.
01:03:19
That person, of course, has to be regenerated and freed from slavery to sin given the gifts of saving faith and repentance of necessity.
01:03:29
And I could even tie this into John 6, amazing. John 6, 37, all the Father gives me will come to me, will be coming to me, present tense, coming to Christ.
01:03:38
So to try to separate them and say, I'm separating them, you just haven't understood it. Titus 3, 5 -7 is one of my favorite passages.
01:03:46
It is very central to the teaching of the gospel. It was really a simple yes, no question, but that's okay.
01:03:54
Proverbs 1, 29, fear the Lord. They chose to fear the
01:03:59
Lord, correct? No, sir. They did not choose to fear the Lord. They did not choose to fear the Lord. That is a description of godless men.
01:04:07
Okay, so they could have chose to fear the Lord. I did not say that. Okay. Romans 8, 7 through 8, we've already, are you just repeating what you've already said before?
01:04:20
Did Job choose to fear the Lord? Job 1, 1? Yes, and we are not told the reasons and the motivations.
01:04:27
The Bible does tell us elsewhere that that is the grace of God that does so all through the
01:04:33
Psalms. It tells us that I would never even begin. So you're saying the Bible's incomplete. That is a ridiculous statement. Well, okay, no further questions.
01:04:40
Most definitely, thank you. All right, three -minute closing statements, then we will take our phone calls and our three -minute statement begins now.
01:04:49
I want to apologize to the audience. I asked for a debate on John 6.
01:04:55
I don't believe I will ever get one. What we've heard this evening is a presentation of Pelagianism, an ancient heresy of the church that does not understand the nature of sin, the slavery of man to sin, the priority of God's grace.
01:05:10
This would not even be a debate that would take place between myself and a Roman Catholic. Even the
01:05:16
Roman Catholic Church recognizes more with greater clarity the biblical teaching concerning the nature of man and his enslavement to sin that has been presented this evening.
01:05:26
So I want to apologize. I did my best to try to find someone who would address
01:05:31
John 6, would address it in its own context, not openly and without apology, say, well, you insert this entire sentence of extraneous material that has no connection whatsoever with the text at all, and that's how you interpret the scriptures.
01:05:50
That is not being biblical. The claim was made, well, I'm just being biblical. All scripture is inspired.
01:05:58
Yes, but all scripture is not the same context. I do not believe that anyone can walk through John 6 and simply say,
01:06:07
I want to hear what Jesus says and come to any conclusion other than the absolute freedom and sovereignty of God and man's total dependence upon him.
01:06:19
That is the message that I believe has been established very clearly. In opposition to that, we've had another debate going on, and again, this is what's so unfair when one side doesn't do what was originally discussed.
01:06:35
And that is, it would be one thing if I had done a 15 -minute presentation on the nature of man, on all the passages that speak of man's fallen nature and his slavery to sin and his inabilities, but I didn't do that because that's not what
01:06:49
John 6, 35 through 45 and doing an exegesis of that is all about. And so I apologize.
01:06:55
I fear that for most folks, we have wasted our time this evening because the debate that was supposed to be did not take place.
01:07:03
However, we at least have had some illustrations of a modern
01:07:08
Pelagian perspective, a viewpoint that man is not truly dead in sin.
01:07:13
I would like to ask anyone, take that idea to Romans 3. Go to the verses beforehand, then the transition into the presentation of the gospel of justification, and you will see that to not see what is there in Romans 3, 10 through 18 is to completely overthrow the entirety of Paul's argument, which is what
01:07:31
Pelagianism truly does. There is no room left for the gospel of justification in a Pelagian system.
01:07:37
And so that has been illustrated. And so hopefully the callers that we have will be able to focus this a little bit better, but hopefully you have benefited from at least some of the biblical discussion this evening.
01:07:51
And so we will now give Mr. DiGero his three minutes, immediately following that three minutes.
01:07:59
I right now, I only see, and I can't see real well here, I only see one line. And so if those lines don't fill up during this, oh, we have a full board?
01:08:09
Okay, I'm sorry, I apologize. I can only see one thing on the screen, my error.
01:08:15
So we do have a full board. So we will go with the 60 second, 30 second thing. And if you are trying, wait until after the first caller hangs up and then try again, and that way it'll all work out.
01:08:26
So Mr. DiGero, your three minutes closing statement, sir. Well, Dr. White, thank you, by the way.
01:08:31
Dr. White, I apologize for there not being any kind of address on John chapter six, verse 35 to 45, but I don't think there's really a reason for him to apologize because John six, 35 to 45 has been addressed.
01:08:44
As far as sovereign election is concerned, it's not up to God, it's up to us. God takes action on our choices.
01:08:51
That's what the Bible teaches. Do we fear the Lord or do we not fear the Lord? That's the issue. And this cuts to the very heart of Calvinism.
01:08:59
If Calvinism cannot be defended by using the scriptures, then it must be discarded and rejected because it grieves
01:09:05
God's Holy Spirit. It should be considered a doctrine that is scripturally unsupported, baseless and without merit.
01:09:12
There can only be one truth. I'm sure we agree with that. There can only be one truth. There's only one gospel. And according to the scriptures, the truth, this truth is as follows.
01:09:22
God's mercy, grace, and love extends to everyone and is given to all who will accept it.
01:09:29
The way you accept it is by fearing the Lord. The redemptive qualities of the blood of our
01:09:35
Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, was never meant to be diluted or minimized. God instills in every man and woman the ability to make a choice, a free will decision to fear him or not to fear him.
01:09:49
Proverbs 129. Based on our free will choice to fear the Lord, God himself will show us his covenant.
01:09:57
Psalm 25, 14 and Romans 11, 27 clearly states, for this is my covenant unto them when
01:10:03
I shall take away their sins. In Matthew 26, 26 through 28, the son is the covenant.
01:10:09
There's the connection. Those are the points that lead to the cross. The scriptures teach that your choice leads to your own eternal destiny.
01:10:21
Those same scriptures undermine the very fabric and core of Calvinism. Malachi 3, once again, this is your reward should you decide to fear the
01:10:31
Lord. And they that fear the Lord spake often one to another and the
01:10:37
Lord hearkened and heard it. And a book of remembrance was written before him for them that fear the
01:10:42
Lord and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts.
01:10:48
In that day, when I make up my jewels, I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
01:10:55
Should you decide to exercise your free will to fear the Lord, God will bless you. Job, fear the
01:11:01
Lord, Job 1, 1. He chose to fear the Lord. Moses feared the
01:11:07
Lord. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all feared the Lord. David feared the Lord. Cornelius feared the
01:11:12
Lord. Dr. White fails to show any kind of regeneration that took place in any of these people because they chose to fear the
01:11:19
Lord. It's a choice. If you choose to fear the Lord, you will be saved. Repent. God calls on all of us to repent.
01:11:26
That's why John the Baptist, before Jesus Christ entered into this world, said, repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
01:11:33
You repent, you fear the Lord, you make the choice and God decides. God bless you all. Okay, your time is up, sir.
01:11:39
Thank you very much. All right, let's begin our questions. Let's begin with Chris in San Diego. Chris, are you there?
01:11:46
Chris in San Diego. Okay. I'm sorry,
01:11:52
I cannot hear you. Chris in San Diego, are you there? Okay, get rid of Chris. Let's go to David in Austin.
01:11:58
David, are you there? Is anyone there? Hello? Can you hear me? I can hear you.
01:12:04
Is this David? Okay, great. I've got a question for Lou, but I guess maybe you could also address it as well. It was brought up about Romans 3, that Romans 3 versus, well,
01:12:14
I guess Romans 3 in general, but especially verses 10 through 18, we're not talking about mankind in general, but about a certain type of people that aren't seeking
01:12:23
God. My question is this, since Paul spent the first, second half of the first chapter of Romans addressing the fact that Gentiles were under sin, and then he spent
01:12:33
Romans chapter two addressing the fact that Jews were under sin, and then in verse nine, he says, what then, are we better than they?
01:12:40
Not at all. We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. Who does that leave out?
01:12:47
How would, I guess my question is for Lou, how would you exegete that passage to just narrow it down to just a certain group of people?
01:12:55
Because it seems to me that it's talking about everybody. Okay. Thank you, David. Lou, you have one minute.
01:13:02
Okay. Romans chapter three really needs to be read throughout, and you'll find that as you go into Romans chapter three, and you say you begin in verse 13, it describes the type of people that's being referred to.
01:13:16
Their throat is an open sepulcher, with their tongues they have used to deceit, the poison of ash is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace have they not known.
01:13:33
There's no fear of God before their eyes. That's the type of people that's being described here in Romans chapter three.
01:13:40
Up to verse 18, there is no fear of God before their eyes. Those are those who choose not to fear the Lord. Cornelius feared the
01:13:47
Lord. He's not included in this passage. Romans chapter three is not referring to all men.
01:13:53
It's referring to those who do wickedly. It's not referring to the
01:13:58
Jobs and the Corneliuses in the Bible. Okay, and I have 30 seconds to respond to that.
01:14:05
I just invite the readers to go to Romans chapter three, read the verses beforehand and afterwards. Paul is using this to prove that all
01:14:12
Jews and all Gentiles are under sin. Without this passage, the entirety of the rest of the book of Romans is left dangling, and the gospel of justification is destroyed.
01:14:22
And so the question was exactly right. Paul says, we have concluded that all Jews and Gentiles are under sin.
01:14:28
That includes Cornelius and Job and everybody else. So that is very clear. Okay, let's try
01:14:35
Chris once again. For some reason, the callers aren't able to hear me. Chris, can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me,
01:14:40
James? I can hear you now, sir, yes. Thank you, appreciate it. Lou, this is Chris, Real Truth Radio. Question for you, Lou.
01:14:45
To put fear of God, to repent, to place faith, to choose Christ, those would seem to be pleasing things to God.
01:14:53
Romans 8, 8 says that no one in the flesh can please God. The very next verse says that you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you.
01:15:02
Do you agree that those things would be pleasing to God? That what things? I'm sorry, first of all, the sound is not coming in very good for me.
01:15:10
What is the question now? To fear the Lord, to repent, to choose Christ, would those things be pleasing to God?
01:15:17
To repent? Yes. It's definitely pleasing to God. He commands us to repent. Let me repeat what the caller was saying, because he has a pretty weak connection there.
01:15:26
He's asking, Chris is asking to choose Christ, to believe in Christ, to repent. These are all things that are pleasing to God.
01:15:33
Therefore, in light of Romans 8, 8, that says that the person who is according to the flesh cannot please
01:15:39
God, could you explain what Romans 8, 7 -8 is talking about in light of the fact that you say that everyone has that capacity and ability?
01:15:48
They that are in the flesh cannot please God, but they that are in the spirit can please God. You're in the spirit, you repent. You're in the spirit, you repent.
01:15:57
Okay, so is that your answer? Yes, that's my answer. Okay, my 30 second response,
01:16:04
I guess Lou does not understand this issue because I raised Romans 8, 7 -8 as well. Romans 8, 7 -8, the difference is between the unregenerate man and the regenerate man.
01:16:14
The regenerate man can do what is pleasing to God. The unregenerate man cannot. Yet the entire thesis this evening has been the unregenerate man has free will.
01:16:22
He can do what is pleasing to God. And that is contradicted by what Romans 8, 8 has to say as the caller raised that issue.
01:16:31
All right, I'm getting close to the end of my list. I'm sure there's some others to put up there. Let's talk with Sam.
01:16:39
Let's go to Sam in Chicago. Sam, are you there? Yes, hello, can you hear me? Yes. Lou, can you hear
01:16:46
Sam? Yes, I can hear you very well. Okay, all right. Praise the Lord. I'm just hearing the conversation. I'm left confused with Lou's exegesis.
01:16:55
As White indicated, several passages speak about the unregenerate sinner unable to choose
01:17:00
God. And yet Lou says that that unregenerate sinner is the one person without the spirit.
01:17:05
And so I'm confused. So here's some other passages. I'd like Lou to comment on. Let's try and make it quick, Sam. All right,
01:17:11
I'm sorry. John 1, 12 to 13 says that those who received Christ did so not because of their own will, but because God had chosen them.
01:17:18
John 1, 12 to 13 says not based on human will, but they were born of God. So how does free will lead them to choosing
01:17:25
God when it says it wasn't based on human will? Okay, so - John, what's the verse now that Sam is quoting? John chapter one, let me - 12 to 13.
01:17:34
Would you like me to read it for you, Lou? John chapter one. But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even those who believe in his name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
01:17:48
I believe he's focusing upon the phrase that they were born not of the will of man and in opposition to that, but of God.
01:18:00
They're born of the spirit. They're born of the spirit. That goes back to Romans 8, Romans 8, 9. They're born of the spirit.
01:18:06
And remember what it says in John. Okay, I have a minute to respond. John 1, 10. We need to take a look at the context of John 1, 7 through 13, referring to the fact that God revealed himself to the world.
01:18:21
Now, verse 13 says, which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
01:18:27
They were born of the spirit. They were born of the spirit and the word was made. I don't understand why, if you isolate the verse, what point is
01:18:35
Sam trying to make? Sam, what point are you trying to make when you isolate the verse? I'm not sure that Sam's still there.
01:18:42
I'm not sure Sam's still there either, but Sam isolates the verse and he comes to an incorrect conclusion.
01:18:48
Okay, is that your answer? That's my answer. Okay, I believe I understand Sam's point. It's one
01:18:53
I've made many times. When the apostle John explains the source of their being born again, which results in their receiving him over against people not receiving him, the choice, the difference between those two is not their quote unquote free will choice, a phrase that appears nowhere in scripture.
01:19:11
Instead, the difference specifically says not the will of man, but of God. God is the one who causes people to be born again.
01:19:19
That is the point of verse 13. Rebecca, I don't see
01:19:26
Rebecca in Nolens, Nolens, Louisiana. Rebecca, how are you?
01:19:31
Yes, sir, I'm fine. My question is primarily for you, Dr. White. Hey, I get a minute, yay.
01:19:37
I was listening to the debate and there was some talk of God's mercy and grace. And with that in mind,
01:19:44
I was looking at 1 John 4, 8, where it says in part that God is love. So my question is, if God is love, why would he permit some folks to be born so they can spend eternity in hell apart from God?
01:19:55
To me, that doesn't sound like love. All right, well, the answer to that is very clear.
01:20:00
God is not just love. He is also justice. He is also holiness. He is also mercy.
01:20:06
And every person who will experience eternity in hell is a person who freely, willfully wanted to do the sins that they did and they experienced
01:20:16
God's justice. Love, grace, and mercy cannot be forced. They cannot be demanded.
01:20:23
They must be free to be love, grace, and mercy. And hence to say God must give his redemptive love and his redemptive grace and mercy to every single individual is to say that God has to be somehow less than we are.
01:20:39
That is, we do not give our love, the special love that I'm supposed to have for my wife,
01:20:45
I am only to give to my wife. I must be discriminating in the kinds of love that I exercise. There's a difference between my love for my children, my love for anyone else's children.
01:20:53
So we need to give God that very same level of freedom in how he loves. That was exactly one minute.
01:21:01
So Mr. Ruggiero, you have 30 seconds. Well, Rebecca is correct. God extends his love to everyone and he gives everyone a choice to choose.
01:21:12
For God to just basically create someone and say, well, this one I'm just gonna select for eternal damnation is not love.
01:21:21
He gives us the choice. See, what Dr. Wyatt is doing is placing the born again issue in the regenerative process prior to man choosing
01:21:30
Jesus. And it's not scriptural. Dr. Wyatt has failed to prove or illustrate his position that the regenerative process takes place before one receives
01:21:39
Christ. That's your 30 seconds, sir. Thank you. Let's go to Gene in California.
01:21:47
Gene. Hello, Dr. Wyatt. Hello, Lou. Hello. Hey, first of all, I wanna make one suggestion that I wanna read four verses.
01:21:54
My suggestion is this, Lou. You need to sit down and listen to this MP3. Take out your Bible and listen very carefully because you're contradicting yourself.
01:22:03
The verses that I wanna read are in John chapter 12, verses 37 through 40. And then I'd like Lou to tell me what they mean.
01:22:10
Verse 37. But though he had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in him.
01:22:16
This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, which he spoke, Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the
01:22:23
Lord been revealed? For this very reason, they could not believe. For Isaiah said again, he has blinded their eyes.
01:22:30
He has hardened their heart so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart and be converted and I heal them.
01:22:38
Lou, it sounds to me like you're saying that Jesus wants everybody to be saved, but that's not what the quote from Isaiah means.
01:22:45
So can you please explain to me what's going on here? Well, yeah, okay, no problem. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's a quote from Isaiah chapter six, verse nine, verse,
01:22:54
I believe, eight through 10, where God announces to Isaiah that he would be taking away the understanding of the children of Israel.
01:23:01
And that's pretty much explained in Romans chapter 11, which says accordingly, pick up in verse eight.
01:23:08
Accordingly, as it is written, God had given them the spirit of slumber. I said they should not see and it is that they should not hear unto this day.
01:23:16
Oh, you see, God blinded the children of Israel so that the Gentiles can be saved. That's in Romans chapter 11.
01:23:23
So that Israel will someday become jealous and come to him, verse 11, Romans 11, 11.
01:23:28
I say then, had they stumbled that they should fall, God forbid, but rather through their fall, salvation is come unto the
01:23:36
Gentiles for to provoke them to jealousy. So you see, God has his own way of doing things.
01:23:41
And for the greater good, he provided salvation to the Gentiles. He took away the understanding from Israel so salvation could be provided for the
01:23:48
Gentiles. And through the Gentiles, through jealousy, all Israel will be saved, that's in Romans 11, 25 to 27.
01:23:56
Go ahead, Dr. Thank you. Well, the problem is that the application made by the
01:24:01
Apostle John isn't concerning that in regards to Israel and bringing the
01:24:07
Gentiles in. It is specifically in regards to the individuals who had seen the performance of Jesus' signs right before them, and yet they were not believing in him because there is a judicial hardening going on here, which does seem to be directly contrary to the constant repetition of the libertarian free will position that we've seen this evening.
01:24:30
Okay, we now go, oh goodness, all the way across the
01:24:35
United States to Steve. Steve in New Jersey. Steve, are you there? Yes, Dr.
01:24:41
White. Good evening. Good evening. My question is sort of like, I guess it's to your opponent.
01:24:46
I don't recall his name. Is it Lou? Lou, uh -huh. Lou, okay. I guess
01:24:51
I would present it to you, but it actually could be presented to both of you. My question is concerning the hermeneutic that's been applied tonight.
01:24:58
Dr. White presented John 6. He exegeted it. The response was it can't mean that because of other scriptures.
01:25:09
Doesn't it logically, first of all, the first question is, doesn't it logically follow that the reverse argument of that would be true, that the other scriptures can't mean what someone else says because of John 6?
01:25:20
And if that is true, does it not follow that each of the scriptures have to stand on their own and be understood on their own, and then brought together, not bounced around by, well, this means this over here, no, that means that over there?
01:25:32
Okay, Lou? Okay, based on 2 Timothy 3, 16, I harmonized
01:25:38
John 6, 35 through 45 to clearly show that Dr. White's position is incorrect, that through choice and not through God's sovereign counsel, a man decides his own eternal destiny.
01:25:50
And 2 Timothy 3, 16 clearly gives me that right to do that, all scriptures given by inspiration of God, and it's profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction.
01:25:59
And through the other scriptures, it's impossible for God to lie. All scriptures are true. For correction,
01:26:05
I clearly showed that Dr. White's position regarding sovereign election and sovereign counsel is incorrect.
01:26:13
And it's man who, through his own choice of fearing the Lord, who determines his own eternal salvation.
01:26:20
And 2 Timothy 3, 16 gives me the right to do that. Just like Dr. White went to Romans 3 to prove his point, and some various other scriptures outside of John 6 to prove his point,
01:26:32
I went outside John 6 to prove my point. And 2 Timothy 3, 16 gives me the right. Okay, on my 30 seconds,
01:26:39
I do not believe that there has been any hermeneutic that has been applied by my opponent this evening.
01:26:46
His hermeneutic could be used to prove anything. I do not believe that it allows the scriptures to speak for themselves. All scripture is inspired, but all scripture speaks within a context.
01:26:55
The context of John 6 was ignored, and in fact destroyed by eisegetical insertion of tradition that comes from the misinterpretation of other passages.
01:27:05
And I believe that folks can see that for themselves. We only have a little time left, and lots and lots of callers.
01:27:10
Mark, Greenville, South Carolina, go ahead. Hey, Dr. White, my question is for Lou. The tacit assumption tonight has been basically that everyone has the ability on their own to believe.
01:27:22
And I wanted to ask about Acts 16, 14 and Lydia, where it says that the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
01:27:31
What's the purpose of that, and why is that necessary if we all have ability on our own? Lou. Okay, obviously,
01:27:39
Lydia is the one who made the choice. Lydia was the one who came to God, and God blessed her.
01:27:49
I'm not saying that man chooses. The Bible says that man chooses.
01:27:56
Proverbs 1, 29 says that the fear of the Lord is a choice. And Psalm 25, 14 says that as the result of our fear to the
01:28:03
Lord, fear of the Lord, God shows us his covenant. And the scriptures clearly point to the cross.
01:28:09
God acts on our choice. Dr. White has given no scriptures to refute the fear of the
01:28:18
Lord and the choice issue of fearing the Lord. He hasn't done that tonight. So with all respect to Dr.
01:28:24
White, his hermeneutics was lacking because he never challenged the choice issue of fearing the
01:28:30
Lord and how that leads to the covenant, and that covenant being his son. God acts on our choice. The scriptures are clear, and I hope that answers your question.
01:28:38
Okay, and I get the last word this evening in 30 seconds. Everybody, read
01:28:44
Acts 16, 14. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. God had to do that.
01:28:50
The idea that she somehow had some sort of free will is completely not in the text.
01:28:55
And here we have an example of the tradition. Mr. Ruggiero has a tradition. It determines what he sees in scripture.
01:29:00
It makes him turn John 6, 44 on its head, Matthew Acts 16, 14 on its head, and see something in Proverbs 1, 29 that Proverbs 1, 29 does not begin to present at all.
01:29:12
Well, we have come up to the very end of the program this evening. I appreciate Mr. Ruggiero's taking his time to be with us this evening, and I appreciate all of you who have listened.
01:29:21
We're trying to wrap this up. Some of you may be asking, well, why don't you just go on farther? We wanna put in 90 minutes so we can make it available on a single 90 -minute cassette, which is what most of our dividing lines are put on.
01:29:35
So that's why that, you know, if you put 10 minutes onto the tape, people get upset because it costs more. That's the whole point.
01:29:41
So anyways, thank you very much for listening this evening. Hope you've been blessed. Mr. Ruggiero, thank you. We'll see you
01:29:46
Tuesday morning, special dividing line. Check the website out. A convert from Islam from Pakistan will be with us for 90 minutes, giving us his testimony.
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