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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
Here is James White.
And good evening and welcome to the dividing line this evening a debate on John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45. I will be debating. Mr. Louis Ruggiero who is on The line and here's how it's going to work.
This is going to be fairly quick introduction because we want to get as much discussion as we can this evening both. Both speakers will have a particular period of time 15 minutes to make their case. Then I will be going first then mr. Ruggiero go second then we will have and I Apologize for doing this off top my head we will have five minutes to Respond to what the other individual said again the same order.
Then we will have ten minutes to cross-examine one another. I will be going first Asking mr. Ruggiero questions and he will be asking me questions for a total of ten minutes ten minutes each. That's totally of 20 minutes and then we'll have three minute closing statements.
Then we will be taking phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one now write that number down. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one because I'm probably not going to be repeating it very often.
During the course of the program obviously eight seven seven seven five three three. Three four one is the toll-free number. We will open up the lines for your phone calls after the cross-examination period so at the end of the cross-examination Period which will be the two ten-minute segments right before the three minute Closing statements, so you've pretty much heard the whole debate at that point other than the closing statements.
That's when we will open the phone lines and you can get online to ask your questions if you ask a question. Please tell us who you are addressing it to. Myself or mr. Ruggiero and the person to whom it is addressed Will have 60 seconds to respond to your question and then the other person will have 30 seconds to comment now.
That means we're gonna be able to get a lot of calls through. So make sure to you know. Have your fingers ready and get online and make the phone call. Because we will probably be able to to process you through.
I may not be able to have your name and things like that. But we'll get as many of you through as is possible and so This is a discussion that came out of pal talk initially another gentleman whose pal talk ID is Jade minor.
Was going to do this, but he passed it off to mr. Ruggiero and so what I'm also going to do because I did not receive any type of biographical information is When mr. Ruggiero is turned to do his opening statement comes if it's okay with him if he would like to have 60 seconds to introduce himself.
Where he's from what his interests are, you know, whatever he feels would be best. We'd be glad to do that because I did not receive any particular biographical information that I can share with you. So we will make that that available at that time available after I make my 15 minutes opening presentation.
So that's what the debate is about this evening on the dividing line. That's only about a three-minute introduction that's not too bad as far as laying out the the groundwork and so with that I will begin my time for my 15-minute presentation on John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 obviously John chapter 6 is Central to the issues surrounding Calvinism and Arminianism the Reformed faith.
It is I believe one of the clearest most compelling Presentations of the freedom and sovereignty of God and salvation in all of Scripture it has as one of its advantages.
The.
Fact that it comes from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ and since it comes from his lips. Though I do not believe that if it's in red letter, it's more Inspired than anything else. It does tend to speak to a very wide audience some who do in fact harbor some Feelings that if it's only found in Paul, then maybe someone's misunderstanding it.
Of course, John chapter 6 is the longest chapter in the Gospel of John and it is important to establish The context of this particular passage of Scripture in John chapter 6. Jesus has fed the 5 ,000 that's 5 ,000 men not including women and children and Here you have individuals who seek to make Jesus King.
They see this particular kind of miracle. They recognize what power is represented by the Lord Jesus. They seek to make him King. He knowing this and of course his disciples would know this as well. They would hear what the crowds were saying he sends the crowds away and He will not allow them to to do the things that they that they want to do.
Instead he sends them away and he sends the disciples away. Even though the disciples are probably very disappointed by this particular activity in the part of Lord Jesus and then we have Jesus going the disciples going across the lake and Jesus coming to them in the storm walking upon the water and This miracle takes place.
There may be another miracle. It takes place in that when Jesus gets in the boat. They're immediately on the other side. But the section that we're gonna be looking at John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45 comes after this particular incident now, we're in Capernaum and we are in the synagogue in Capernaum and the individuals who Were on the other side of the lake these individuals are now seeking Jesus.
In fact, they are actually described as Seeking Jesus the very term that is used of someone searching someone else out. Just like in Romans chapter 3 when it is said that there is no God seeker. Then we have the very same term used here.
They are seeking after Jesus and they find him. These are individuals that from a modern perspective are the perfect people that you want to have in your church. They are the persons that you want to Have involved in in outreach and things like that.
They're seeking after Jesus, but Jesus's response to them is very very interesting. He recognizes That they are not really Seeking after him. They are looking for food. They are looking for the miracles.
They do not recognize their Spiritual need and so we come to our passage and here Jesus is Speaking to that and he says in verse 35 Jesus said to them I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall not hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
Jesus is presenting himself as the living bread the bread of life as the one who can fulfill spiritual hunger and spiritual thirst. But then verse 36 says but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
So Jesus knows that these men are unbelievers even though they sought after him they sought after him for the wrong reason. It's very important to recognize that in the rest of this passage. Jesus is explaining the Unbelief of these men there is no surprise that when you get to the end of John chapter 6 these men that Jesus knew were Unbelievers are walking away from Jesus and Jesus does not stop them.
He does not say oh guys you misunderstood me. Please come back. Let me try to express it in another way. He doesn't do any of that. He knew they were unbelievers even when they were seeking him and want to make him king.
Because they were seeking him for the wrong reason and the rest of this passage is explaining this unbelief. How can these people who saw the miracles who possessed the Word of God who are standing in the very presence of the incarnate?
Son of God, how can they stand there in? Unbelief. The reason is given to us in verse 37 all that the father gives me shall come to me and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. Here is Jesus's own Explanation if you really want to come to Jesus and these people are not they have sought after him.
But they're gonna walk away. These are not individuals who are coming to Jesus. Something must happen first. The first phrase is all that the father gives me shall come to me. Every word is extremely important.
All that the father gives me not some not most not a few all. That the father gives me will come to me. Now which action comes first and this is the first important thing to write down write down on a piece of paper if you would.
In this debate who answers the question of the text itself raised by verse 37. What is the relationship of the giving of the father to coming to the Son? That is the whole debate between Calvinism Arminianism.
Is it not? What is the relationship between God's sovereign selection or choice and man's action of believing in Christ? Well in John 637 both are present all that the father gives me will come to me grammatically logically syntactically and Contextually the giving of the father Precedes the coming of the individual to Christ.
Why is this so important?
Well.
Because obviously many people attempt to overthrow the testimony of this passage by saying well what's really going on here is is God looks down the corridors of time and on his for not basis of his foreknowledge He sees who's going to choose him and on that basis chooses them.
But that's not what Jesus says here the Relationship from the Lord Jesus's lips and remember this is found offensive. This is found offensive by these men. They say it's a hard saying who could understand it.
The relationship is it all that the father gives me will come to me. It is the father's giving that determines the coming of the individual in belief and faith to Jesus Christ. A person must first be given by the father to the son and As a result when the Holy Spirit works in that person's life that person will come in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ.
That person who's given by the father will without question Come to Christ not to anyone else not to another religion. But to Christ in him alone. And the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
What a beautiful promise so many of us hold this so carefully we can never be cast out. By our Savior, but why is that? That's the second half of a sentence so many people want to have this promise. But they don't want the theology upon which it is based.
It is based upon the assertion that the father has sovereign authority to give a specific people under the Sun. Do all people come to Christ? No, all people do not come to Christ hence those who are given is a limited group.
It is not every single individual. We do not believe in universalism. All that the father gives me will come to me and that is why the one who comes to me and we do come to Christ. I have believed in Jesus Christ.
But I believe in Jesus Christ because God in his infinite mercy in eternity past set his love upon me and at a time of his choosing Freed me from the bondage of sin and gave me the gift of faith so that I may indeed believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus will not cast that one out then in verses 38 and 39 as time is fleeting. We have Jesus own words. Concerning the will of the father for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who?
Sent me and this is the will of him who sent me that of all that he has given me I lose nothing. But raised it up on the last day and so here is this group of people the ones given by the father to the son.
Here it's placed in the present. Aren't they perfect tense. So this is referring to that eternal giving of the father to the son and it is a father's will. For the son that he lose none of those that are given to him none.
Now this means Jesus must be a perfect Savior. He must be a Savior who is capable in and of himself of Accomplishing the father's will and the father's will for him is that he lose none of those that are given to him.
Obviously all forms of synergism all forms of belief where man's will and man's faith Outside of the work of the Spirit of God are made this a sighting factor and Jesus wants to save and tries to save but fails to save.
Those beliefs crash upon the rocks of the clear statement of verses 38 and 39. That the Savior that Jesus Christ is a perfect Savior. He has the capacity to save those given to him now. What is the result then people many times will go to verse 40 they'll skip verses 37 through 39.
They'll skip the flow of thought. They'll go to verse 40 for this is the will of my father that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him may have eternal Life and I myself will raise him up on the last day.
That is very true. But please notice that the beholding and the believing are present tense. These are the results of the work of the Spirit within our life. Everyone who is drawn by the father will indeed Behold the son and believe in him and notice then Jesus says I myself will raise him up on the last day.
That was at the end of verse 39 at the end of verse 37. We have I will certainly not cast him out. Keep those in mind because they're very important. Well, the Jews don't like this and they grumble. They don't like him saying he's the bread of heaven and Jesus answers in verse 43 and says to them do not crumble among yourselves.
No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. There's that same phrase. Who does he raise up on the last day in? Verses 37 and 39 and 40 that work is his raising up in the last day those given to him by the father.
Verse 44 says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. Here's the next big thing to write down. Upon what basis are we to believe if we are to believe at all.
That the one who is raised up in verse 44 is different than the one who is drawn by the father. Why is that important. Because the only way to get around what this passage is teaching is to try to say well.
Everyone's drawn up. Isn't that what John 12 32 says. Go to another context ignore that context and what it actually means. Bring it back here to John chapter 6 verse 44 and say well, everyone's drawn up.
So this doesn't really mean anything. That's not the case. All that the father gives me is the same as no one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws Him and I will raise him up in the last day.
Who is drawn by the father to the son. Those given by the father to the son and All those who are drawn are raised up on the last day. Very very important. The parallel then notice verse 45 then restates this.
It is written in the prophets and they shall all be taught of. Everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me. Well, wherever he's seen that phrase comes to me before we saw it in verse 37.
All the father gives me shall come to me. We saw it in verse 44. No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him. So what is this learning and hearing from the father? It's the same thing as being drawn by the father and who is it that hears and learns.
Who is it that is drawn? Those that are given by the father to the son and. So we have a perfect balance we have a perfect consistency Throughout this passage. Well, then what's the issue? Well, the issue is Jesus is teaching here runs directly opposite of the traditions of men.
Anyone who wants to hold on to the libertarian concept of free will will run directly into this particular passage. Not only does it make God Sovereign the matter of salvation and man the object of the perfect work of Christ hence He has no ground of boasting.
He has no ground to say I'm the one I by my will chose to do this over against those people in hell. They didn't and so I'm better nothing like that at all it cuts all the ground out from underneath boasting and verse 44, especially is Too many people extremely offensive.
No one is able is literally what Jesus says Udice do not I no one has the capacity to come to me unless the father does something and You see that is what is so tremendously offensive to those who believe that God did most everything.
But he he is totally controlled by my final decision. God tries and he tries and he tries and he tries. But it's up to me to enable him to save me by my act of quote-unquote free will. John 644 is directly contrary to the concept of free will and therefore this whole passage its emphasis upon the sovereign Freedom of God and giving a people and to the Son not based upon anything they do.
But in fact their action of coming to Christ is independent upon his having given them the freedom of God the sovereignty of God the sufficiency of Christ as Savior and The inability of man that is so clearly and bluntly stated by the Lord Jesus and notice at the end of this chapter verses 65 and following Jesus keeps repeating that statement and that is why men turn around and walk away.
They are offended they were offended then and Unfortunately, many people are offended by the truth this passage today as well. So that is my presentation on the subject of John chapter 6 we will now reset our clock here and I will ask our Board operator to bring mr. Ruggiero online.
Are you there, sir? Yes, I am. All right, and were you able to hear me well enough? I hope yes.
I was. I like to use the one minute to introduce myself before my time starts. Okay, you go ahead and do that. This is Mormons Muslim Calvinist. So that's that's my bio and Keeping. Okay, sir. You have 15 minutes.
You may begin. Well, dr. White sex of Jesus on John chapter 6 very very well be true a sovereign election a sovereign counsel. God decides our sovereign election sovereign counsel. Well, the scriptures teach that John chapter Smith unto me are the learned of the father.
Father means having knowledge. How can we be learned of the father and not have knowledge? How do we get that now the one verse seven of the Lord give me the definition. It does in Proverbs chapter. And the evil way in the froward with my reproof every man.
Therefore that I will make known and he refused. I have stretched out my hand and no man regarded and he refused. Then shall they call upon find me. God gave us all the innate ability you might ask. What does it say in Scripture that fear of the Lord leads to the son of psalm 25.
Shall he teach in the way that he? Shall choose psalm 25 14. The secret of the Lord of the Lord is with them and he took the cup and gave thanks and Gave it to them saying drinky or shed. For many fear of the Lord and the covenant.
He said whom think he that I am. I am not. Whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. And whosoever among you fear among you fear it places our own choice at the head. That leads to the court and passed the cross and said of a truth.
I perceive that God is no respect of a person's. But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is Accepted with him. Notice the fear again. Nothing said of a truth. I perceive that God is no respect with that fear with him.
He that exercises their free will choice. It's righteousness is accepted with him. It's all about choice. Dr. White said this is John 6 7 again together. That's right. It's true all scriptures of psalm 25 for Lord.
God will show you his covenant 11 27 create individuals in there. Well, no, I don't think that's fair. We all have a choice to decide and make decision with respect to our own eternal destiny. Do you fear the Lord or do you repent?
Repentance goes with fearing the Lord. Let's go back to the definition to hate evil. You hate evil. Do you hate your sin repent? Remove the pride. Remove the arrogancy. Humble yourself before the Lord God of Israel.
Your decision choose to fear. It's as easy as that. Yes, sir. You have four minutes left. I do have four minutes left. Okay, let's let's use the children of Israel as an example. Bless them not to fear the Lord.
God took away their knowledge. Well, Javon near me with their mouth and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Therefore behold I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people even a marvelous work and a wonder for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish and the understanding of their prudent God removed the knowledge of the children not to fear the Lord.
If you will fear the Lord both ye and. Also, they can obey the voice of the hand of the Lord be against you. You fear the Lord. You obey his will or you don't obey his voice. The matter is it really doesn't matter anymore because it will obey him.
Yes, sir. You have five minutes.
Yes, the next section of the debate is five minute responses and my time will begin right now. Well, unfortunately the the debate challenge that I had issued to initially was to present The exegesis of John chapter 6 verses 35 through 45.
We have only heard one exegesis of John chapter 6 we have heard a presentation of a semi Pelagian anthropology and a Perspective on free will libertarian free will but we have not had almost anything on John chapter 6.
What was mentioned was well John chapter 6 verse 45 is hearing and learning from the father as I pointed out my presentation that is direct parallel of Being drawn by the father that was not refuted in the response.
Because all those who hear and learn from the father the father is a source of this the drawing. The giving the hearing and learning comes from father and as a result those individuals come To the son.
The only other thing that was said concerning John chapter 6 is that All those all who are drawn are those who will believe freely on the basis of free will. I just want everyone to look at John 6 44 and Consider what's being said here.
No one has the ability To come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise a bump up on the last day actually means Everyone has the ability to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.
Again the the the phrase is who do not. I not able and yet the traditions of men and I believe libertarian free will. Which you cannot find scripture anywhere is a tradition of man. It ignores biblical anthropology.
The tradition of man creates this ability to see Scriptures that say one thing and reverse them 180 degrees around. I think part of it is also seen in the assertion that this is Not fair. God's sovereignty is not fair.
That's exactly the opposition question that is given to the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 9. The person opposing the Apostles teaching says the same thing. You don't want to be in the position of the person who is opposing the Apostle the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is the cry of the person who does not understand that God is the Potter and we are the clay. It isn't fair. It's mercy and grace. Grace and mercy are outside of strict categories of justice. If you want fairness, then you sin you die.
That's it. That's that's the end of fairness. We don't want fairness. We want mercy and grace and it is all to the glory of Jesus Christ. I actually heard and I was hoping that maybe I misunderstood this.
But I thought I heard the the statement that you are worthy despite all your sins. You are worthy. I Hope that's not what I heard. I don't think I understood it if that's what was said. That is as far from a biblical understanding of a person who's ready to hear the gospel of Christ as could be.
Once you understand that you are unworthy once that you are understand that you are worthy of nothing but eternal death and destruction. Then you're able to hear about a Savior who can save. Perfectly throughout this presentation.
We're told about you have the ability you have the ability. But I would remind you of what the scripture teaches. Not only is the Jesus teach in John chapter 6 the sovereignty of God and the inability of man.
But in Romans chapter 3 verse 11, we were told there is no God seeker. In Romans 8 7 through 8. We're told that no one has the ability to do what is pleasing to God and cannot submit themselves to the law of God.
In John 8 43 G is himself said that his opponents could not hear or Understand his words because they did not belong to God and that was because he said that he who commits sin is the slave of sin. You think a person who is enslaved to sin is in fact put in a position of being able to freely Free themselves from bondage to sin.
That seems to be what's being suggested. Acts 13 was in fact quoted at one point I would just simply point out that the end of that preaching is found in verse 48. Acts 13 48 when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing glorifying the word of the Lord and what does the scripture say and As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
See they Did believe they exercised their wills. Why them and not someone else was because they're better. Evidently if some choose and others don't that means the ones who go to heaven are better smarter more spiritually sensitive.
No, the only thing that separates those who receive punishment and those who receive Eternal life is grace. G-r-a-c-e as many as had been appointed to eternal life. Believed the appointment was the appointment of God the Father in line with John chapter 6.
All right, mr. Board up person if you would be so kind as to Give mr. Ruggiero the microphone and begin your five minutes as soon as you begin speaking, sir.
Okay, I'd like to respond to dr White 17 verse 30. In the times of this ignorance God winked at but now commanded all men everywhere to repent. That's fearing the Lord to exercise their own free will self known to the world.
John the Baptist. Shouted out to everyone repent. But the kingdom of God is at hand. God once again demands that we repent. Some men count slack not willing that any should perish. It's all about repentance.
Exercising our own free will to fear the Lord. And what does God remember. Enough fearing the Lord is a choice. Proverbs 1 dr. White didn't even proverbs 129 and it also Malachi chapter 3. Malachi 3 16 through 17 shows us the blessing bestowed upon us when we exercise our free will decision to fear the Lord.
Let's read Malachi 3 16 through 17 together. Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another and the Lord hearkened and a book of remembrance was written before him. For them that fear the Lord they put in the they're put into the book of life and that thought upon his name.
And I will spare them as a man spared Lord. God will bless you feel the need to do and do it yourself. You can't do it on your own. You can't you're a sinner. You're a sinner. Repent. Choice is pure 2514 to God showing us this covenant.
If you fear the Lord you will. 1034 course examination.
Already. Let's let's go ahead and and do that. Mr. Jarrell, could you tell me in John 6 37? Jesus says all that the Father gives me will come to me. Could you explain the relationship of the giving of the Father?
And the coming to the Son that is described in the first section of John 6 37, please.
Yes, yes all that fear the Lord will come. And where do you find the phrase fear the Lord in John 6 37. I don't it's not there. Okay, and certainly inherent in Psalm 25 14 and Proverbs 129.
So do you believe Jesus was drawing from those passages in John 6 37? Absolutely. Okay. So the fearing of the Lord then becomes the basis upon which the Father chooses those he's going to give to the Son.
Can you repeat that question, please. The fearing of the Lord. The Lord God sees who fears him and on that basis he gives People to the Son. Yes. Okay, and So you can fear the Lord but not come to Christ until the Father gives you you can fear the Lord.
Okay, you truly fear the Lord. If you truly fear the Lord only God knows the heart. Okay, I guess I just have to ask a direct question.
Why why did you agree to do a debate on John 6 37 through 45 when you didn't? Give an exegesis of John 6 37 to 45.
Well, you claimed and powerful that John 6 35 and that it's the very heart and soul of Calvinism. And I said I said to you in power talk last week that John 6 30 pieces of 2nd Timothy 3 16 ought to be given.
Okay, so based on 2nd Timothy 3 16. I'm challenging your position on John 6 35 to 45.
So you didn't understand that I was asking you to give an exegesis of John 6 35 to 45.
Absolutely, not. You never asked me to. I would said I would respond to your position on John 6 30. What my position.
Okay, verse 44 of John 6. You actually said that The one who comes to Christ is the is the the one who chooses and exercises his free will right?
John 6 44 reads no man can come to me except the father which had sent me draw him. Mm-hmm, that's correct based on your fear of the Lord. The father will draw you to the son and Psalm 20 25 14 is my support for that.
So what is no one can come to me means what does it mean?
No one can come to me until they exercise their free will to fear the Lord and.
You don't see that that is a incredible example of is a Jesus reading into the text something that's.
Completely and totally absent from the text not at all because psalm 25 14 Gives me the authority to connect fearing the Lord to God showing you his covenant. I see so and so this so this acts chapter 13 verse 13.
So you go to all these these passages and you do you interpret any of them in their context? Sure, but you're not interpreting John 6 in its context. I'm.
Interpreting the entire Bible within within.
But I've always been taught that yes, I and I teach that myself. But don't you start with the immediate context and follow a thought through? I mean you you you you say. That Jesus is words in John 6 44.
No one can come to me Unless they exercise their free will to fear the Lord and as a result the father who sent me will draw them.
Isn't that what you just basically said. That's what that's what the scriptures teach. I'm not saying it. The scriptures are saying it.
Okay, why would that have offended the Jews?
That's what they believed. Well the Jews thought that who is this man thinking that he has any part in eternal and eternal salvation.
Actually, it was he God in verse 65 He keeps repeating this and says no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him from the father. That's why they turned around. Left. No, you can you find anywhere in the Bible the phrase free will decision.
Yes, Proverbs 129. Could you quote the phrase free will decision. Their choice. Choice is free will.
So that's so you interpret that. But if I said if I disagree with that then and Point out to you that there's for example, how do you understand Romans chapter 3? It says there is no fear of God Before their eyes the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
There's no fear of God before their eyes.
How can they make right choices? Well, what verse is that. Romans chapter 3. Romans chapter 3 verses 17 18. Oh Romans chapter 3 verse 17 and 8.
So you don't believe that you don't believe that that is all mankind.
No that refers to all those who do not choose to fear the Lord. Look what it says in verse 18. There is no fear of God before their eyes, right? Obviously men some men have feared the Lord.
Do you realize I don't believe in free will sir? I believe the only people who fear the Lord and make right choices are those who have been regenerated by the grace of God. So how then if you believe that Romans 3 10 through 18 is not about all men then How do you then connect that with verses 19 and 20 and the presentation of justification for the people who fear the Lord?
There's no need of justification. Is there I'm sorry for the people who fear the Lord. There's no there's no need of justification.
They already have the right. Romans 18. Verse 18 tells us that it's regarding those who that that do not fear the Lord. Obviously, there are men who do fear the Lord who did fear the Lord who weren't regenerated.
Job.
So Job was a spiritually dead man who feared the Lord.
What does Job 1 1 say? You I mean, well, I'll ask you that during my course examining. I'm glad to so.
Are you aware sir that the position you're presenting is is historically known as as Pelagianism?
I'm displaying is okay, but so you're not familiar with those issues. I don't I don't need to be familiar with those. I'm familiar with the unfamiliar. That's that's all I need to be made familiar with.
And how would you. Um,.
How would you test whether your view of Free will which you're inserting into all these passages. What if you were wrong about that? Well, then the Bible's wrong about it and I don't know so you're under so your understanding in the Bible are the same thing.
Well, you couldn't be wrong. Well unless you show me wrong, I mean I haven't seen you. How could how could someone.
Show you that you're wrong but upon what basis. Given what you've what you've said here if if I were to go to Proverbs 129 and Say everyone that I know of believes that we make choices. The problem is that he who is a slave of sin He who commits sin as a slave of sin and therefore the choices he's going to make are going to be dependent upon his corrupted Will and therefore not free choices.
If I were to say that How could you how could you test that given that you've established your own position as your final authority?
Well, I'm not. I'm not here to establish a position. I'm just here to illustrate to. Okay.
So again, I come back to the main issue. If I can't go to any passage here in John 6 and say well, you know What does this text mean. And you will say for example, well It means. And then you can insert an entire sentence worth of material into it.
How could I ever show you that you're wrong. Because any text I could take you to Romans 9 Romans 8 Ephesians 1 it doesn't matter where I go. All you have to do is insert your tradition into the text.
And now it says what what you say.
The whole Bible says how how could you ever be proven wrong by using the scriptures to support your position?
But I just. But sir what I'm asking you is when you can insert openly and without even apology entire concepts. Into singular phrases that are nowhere in the text at all. They're not referenced. They're not alluded to.
There's no not even a mention of them then any passage that I would use to substantiate my position.
You can do the same thing to that your position. For example, you use Roman 3 as an example. You're saying that no man fears God and I showed you Job 1 1. That's my response that Job feared the Lord. I'll use Cornelius as a response.
Acts chapter 10 verse 1 through 2 corn. Not talking about every man not fearing the Lord.
Is it possible here some men choose not to be. Is it possible that for both Job and Cornelius the pre? Existing work of the Holy Spirit of God by his grace was what allowed them to do what they did.
Well, can you show me a scripture on that? I'd be happy to look at it. So we're joke only we're Job or when I cross-examine you I'll ask you to show me that. That would probably be the best way.
To do it well, unfortunately we I Don't see any use in continuing with with asking you questions. Okay on John. John 6. Because we're really not on that subject before you begin your 10-minute cross-examination so that our board op has time to screen and to Do the things he needs to do.
We will open up the phone lines at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Eight seven seven. Seven five three three three four one. No that doesn't spell anything. It's just a bunch of numbers.
Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Is the phone number for you to call for the questions that we will be able to get to fairly quickly. I don't know how many we're gonna be able to get to but you need to be online.
Do not wait if you're gonna call call now because if you wait to the end We're probably not gonna be able to get to you. So you need to call now if the phone becomes busy. Keep trying. We'll get to you as soon as we can.
We have the ten minute here and then a total of six minutes after that. So we'll be looking at about ten minutes after the hour that we'll be able to get started. And so start calling now last time. Eight seven seven seven five three three three.
Four one is the phone number. All right, go ahead, sir. Okay, dr. White. I like to start my course examination I know I have ten minutes. Dr. White. All scriptures are they honest us. They are God breathed.
Okay, and I'm sure of course you agree with that. Of course, okay. It says in Proverbs 129 that It says they did not choose the fear of the Lord, right, okay, do you agree with that? Of course, so they could have chose not to fear the Lord.
Actually, it's simply describing the fact that they did not choose the fear of the Lord. All sinners are that way, sir?
Okay, they do. If you're asking me that I would say no sir, not outside of God's grace. It shows to fear the Lord and outside of God's grace. No, what. By what reason did the Lord. Because the clear teaching of Scripture that to do?
Spiritual good in God's sight according to Romans 8 7 through 8 requires the enablement of God to do so for all the fallen sons of Adam because the fallen sons of Adam are not able to do what is pleasing in God's sight.
Okay. Now keeping that in mind Let's go to. That man was perfect and one that feared God evil. It says in Job 1 1 that Joe fear God. Yes. Can you show me a verse?
No, I cannot okay.
No, sir.
My answer to you would be that the job does not address the issue of how Joe became a God-fearing man. What sustained him in his God-fearingness or anything else? Okay, so I go to this.
I go to the passage of Scripture that actually addressed those issues. Okay, so you're assuming that there was a regeneration done.
I actually allow all of Scripture to address the subject and since that passage only describes Job and does not Answer the question of how he became that way then I go to passages that actually address the subject being addressed.
Okay, and uh, let's let's look at the chapter 10 verse 1 through 2. Yes, there was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius a centurion of the band called the Italian band. Oh, it says in Acts chapter 2, correct?
Yes. Can you show me any scripture to support that Cornelius was something?
I don't believe that he was until that point until the point of the preaching of the gospel to him. The term God fears is very well known as Gentiles who were attracted to the synagogue worship. They were individuals who had an attraction to the Old Testament scriptures and they were in fact a very important element of the evangelistic Outreach of the early church.
And this is what Cornelius was and that's why God went through so much including visions to Peter and Angelic visitations to bring someone to preach the gospel to him because he needed to hear the gospel so that he might be saved.
So he feared for regarding Cornelius. Can you just again? I just I just mentioned maybe you didn't hear me.
The term God fear is a specific technical term that is used by Luke of those non-jewish individuals who attended Synagogue service and were attracted to the things of the scriptures. This is a description of his demeanor.
It is not a description of whether he was or was not yet regenerate the point being that we are born again by the Word of God. God brought the Word of God to him via Peter. If He had already been regenerated There would be no reason to have Peter come and preach the gospel to him whereby he might be saved.
But if they God fear in Acts chapter 10 verse 1 through 2 door doesn't say that he feared God. Well, the term is used either way by Luke. It does. What does it say God fear?
I do not have a list in front of me, but I would be glad to look them up for you and provide them to you.
Well, yes, can you please do that? I don't. I don't. See God fear if you're God not there Cornelius. He's got it. Now. Is that a question or just a retort? I'm just I'm sorry I'm just like thinking to myself over here.
Are the regeneration process does that take place before you receive Christ or after you receive Christ? I'm sorry. The regeneration process.
I.
Don't believe in a in a process. It is a sovereign act of God Whereby he draws a person out of spiritual life out of spiritual death into spiritual life. It is part and parcel the work of the Holy Spirit of God it results in all saving graces including Saving faith and repentance.
It is it is part of the the entire work of being united with Christ,. I don't believe you can put a Temporal Order in regards to quote-unquote receiving Christ. Well, okay. Let's let's give you an example.
Oh, you know Jesus Christ or after they know Jesus Christ. Well again.
First of all, we don't know who the elect are a be you are asking a theoretical question without any any specific substance to it. It's hard to answer your question. See. The point would be that God sovereignly brings about spiritual regeneration.
Gives this person the gifts of faith and repentance. He does this normally through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that that faith is placed in Jesus Christ. And if you're talking about an order of this, it's it is normally an instantaneous thing.
From God's perspective there is a much more clear and perceptible order to. The various steps is found in Romans chapter 8 verses 29 through 30. Well, that's not the way.
Yes, okay, so you're saying that it's possible for one to be born again before they receive Christ.
No, I'm saying that it is all part and parcel the same divine work.
Okay. So is it possible that you are you claiming that it's possible that I actually said the opposite of that because I pointed out.
That the reason that Peter was sent to him was to preach the gospel to him. We are born again through the preaching of the message of Jesus Christ.
That is the mechanism that God normally uses to draw us unto himself. Okay, Titus chapter 3 verse 5 through 7 I want to read this for you and not by works of righteousness. Which we have done shed on us by by his grace of eternal life supposed to be regenerated.
I've already said at least five or six times that these are contemporaneous events. So you're you're tilting in a windmill here.
So it's a simple yes. No question. Is it possible to have a To be regenerated without without having a relationship with Jesus.
Already said three or four times sir that you do not understand what I've said. I'll try one more time. This is a work of the Holy Spirit of God whereby through the gospel which contains the revelation of who Jesus Christ is a person turns and believes on Jesus Christ that person of course has to be regenerated and freed from slavery to sin given the gifts of saving faith and repentance and they of Necessity.
And I can even tie this into John 6 amazing. John 6 37 all the father gives me will come to me will be coming To me present tense coming to Christ. So to try to separate them and say I'm separating them.
You just haven't understood it. Titus 3 5 through 7 is one of my favorite passages. It is very central to the teaching of the gospel.
It was it was really a simple. Yes. No.
No.
They did not choose to fear the Lord. That is a description of Godless men, okay. I did not say that. Romans 8 7 Romans Romans 8 7 through 8. We've already.
What you've already said before the job choose to fear the Lord. Job one one. Yes, and we are not told.
The reasons and the motivations the Bible does tell us elsewhere that that is the grace of God Through the Psalms. It tells us that I would never even begin saying the Bible's incomplete. That is a ridiculous statement.
Okay. No further questions. Most definitely. Thank you. All right Three-minute closing statements, then we will take our phone calls and our three-minute statement begins now I want to apologize to the audience.
I I Asked for a debate on John 6. I don't believe I will ever get one. What we've heard this evening is a presentation of Pelagian ism an ancient heresy of the church that does not Understand the nature of sin the slavery of man to sin the priority of God's grace.
This would not even be a debate that would take place between myself and a Roman Catholic. Even the Roman Catholic Church recognizes more with greater clarity the biblical teaching concerning the nature of man and his Enslavement to sin that has been presented this evening.
So I want to apologize I I did my best to try to find someone who would address John 6 Would address it in its own context not openly and without apology say well you insert this entire sentence of Extraneous material that has no connection whatsoever with the text at all and that's how you interpret the past the the scriptures That is not being biblical.
The claim was made. Well, I'm just being biblical. I we All scriptures inspired. Yes, but all scripture is not the same context. I do not believe that anyone can walk through John 6 and simply say I want to hear what Jesus says and Come to any conclusion other than the absolute freedom and sovereignty of God and Man's total dependence upon him.
That is the message that I believe has been established very clearly In opposition to that we've had another debate going on and it again. This is what's so unfair when when one side doesn't do What was originally Discussed and that is it would be one thing if I had done a 15-minute Presentation on the nature of man on all the passages that speak of man's fallen nature and his slavery to sin and his inabilities but I didn't do that because that's Not what John 6 35 to 45 and doing an exegesis of that is all about and so I apologize I I fear that for for most folks We have wasted our time this evening because the debate that was supposed to be did not take place however, we at least have had some illustrations of a modern Pelagian perspective a Viewpoint that man is not truly dead in sin.
I would like to ask anyone take that idea to Romans 3 Go to the verses beforehand then the transition into the presentation of the gospel of justification. And you will see that to not see what is there in Romans 3 10 through 18 is to completely Overthrow the entirety of Paul's argument, which is what Pelagianism truly does there is no room left for the gospel of justification in a Pelagian system and So that has been illustrated.
And.
So hopefully the callers that we have will be able to focus this a little bit better. But hopefully you have benefited from at least some of the biblical discussion this evening. And so we will now give mr. DeGero his Three minutes immediately following that three minutes I right now I only see and I can't see real well here I only see one line.
And so if those lines don't fill up during this we have a full board. Okay. I'm sorry. I Apologize, I can only see one thing on the screen. My my air so we do have a full board. So we will go with the 60 second 30 second thing.
And if you are trying wait until after the first caller hangs up and then try again and that way it'll all work out. So mr. DeGero your three minutes closing statement, sir. Well, that's a white. Thank you, by the way.
Dr. White apologized for there not being any kind of a dress on John chapter 6 verse 35 to 45. But I don't think there's really a reason for him to apologize. As far as sovereign is the lips and this coach cannot be defended by using the scriptures.
Then it must be this. It grieves God so they can only be be one truth my covenant unto them. It's 228 the Sun feared the Lord to another and the Lord Harbin's was written before him for them that fear the Lord.
The man spared repent. God calls on all of us to repent. That's why John the baby pent. Repent. You fear the Lord. Okay, you make the choice in God desire. You're not what you are. Okay, your time is up, sir.
Thank you very much. All right, let's begin our questions. Let's begin with Chris in San Diego. Chris. Are you there? Chris in San Diego. Okay. I'm sorry. I cannot hear you. Chris in San Diego. Are you there?
Okay, get rid of Chris. Let's go to David in Austin. David. Are you there? Is anyone there? Hello? Yes, I can hear you. Is this David great?
I've got a question for for Lou, but I guess maybe you could also address it as well. It was brought up in Romans about Romans 3 that Romans 3 verses. Well, I guess Romans 3 in general, but especially verses 10 through 18 we're not talking about mankind in general.
But about a certain type of people that aren't seeking God. My question is this since Paul spent the first second half of the first chapter of Romans addressing the fact that Gentiles were under sin and they spent Romans chapter 2 addressing the fact that that Jews were under sin and then in verse 9 He says what then are we better than they.
Not at all. We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. Who does that leave out? How would how would. I guess my question is for Lou? How would you exegete that passage? To just narrow it down to a certain, you know group of people because it seems to me that it's talking about everybody.
Okay.
Thank you, David Lou. You have one minute. Okay.
Romans chapter 3 really needs to be read is not referring.
Okay, and I have 30 seconds to respond to that. I just invite the readers to go to Romans chapter 3 read the verses beforehand and afterwards. Paul is using this to prove that all Jews and all Gentiles are under sin.
Without this passage the entirety of the rest of the book of Romans is left dangling and the gospel of justification is destroyed and. So the question was exactly right. Paul says we have concluded that all Jews and Gentiles are under sin.
That includes Cornelius and Job and everybody else. So that that is very clear. Okay, let's let's try. Chris once again for some reason the callers aren't able to hear me. Chris, can you hear me now? I can hear you now.
So yes. Okay.
Question for you Lou to put fear of God to repent to place faith to choose Christ. Those would seem to be pleasing things to God. Romans 8 8 says that no one in the flesh can please God. The very next verse says that you are not in the flesh.
But in the spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Do you agree that those things would be pleasing to God? It's not coming in very good to me to fear the Lord to repent to choose Christ with those things be pleasing to God.
To repent. Yes, it's definitely pleasing to God. He commands us to repent.
Let me let me repeat what the caller was saying. Okay, because he has a pretty weak connection there. He's asking. Chris is asking to choose Christ to believe in Christ repent. These are all things are pleasing to God therefore in light of Romans chapter 8 verse 8 That says that the person who's according the flesh cannot please God.
Could you explain what Romans 8 7 through 8 is talking about? In light of the fact that you say that everyone has that capacity and ability.
They better in the flesh cannot please God, but they better in okay. So is that your answer? Okay.
My.
32nd response, I Guess Lou does not understand this issue because I raised Romans 8 7 through 8 as well. Romans 8 7 through 8 the difference is between the unregenerate man and the regenerate man. The regenerate man can do what is pleasing to God the unregenerate man cannot.
Yet the entire thesis this evening has been the unregenerate man has free will he can do what is pleasing to God and That is contradicted by what Romans chapter 8 verse 8 has to say as the the caller raised that issue.
All right. I'm getting close to the end of my list. I'm sure there's some others to put up there. Let's talk with Sam. Let's go to Sam in Chicago. Sam. Are you there? Yes. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, Luke.
Can you hear Sam?
Praise the Lord. I'm just hearing the conversation. I'm I'm left confused with Lou's exegesis as white indicated several passages speak about the unregenerate sinner unable to choose God and yet Lou says that That unregenerate sinners the one personal out the spirit and I'm so I'm confused.
So here's some other passages.
I'd like Lou to comment on. Let's try and make it quick Sam. I'm sorry.
John 1 12 to 13 says that those who received Christ did so not because of their own will but because God had chosen them. John 1 12 to 13 says not based on human will but they were born of God. So how does free will lead them to choosing God when it says it wasn't based on human will.
So what's the verse now that does. Sam is quoting John chapter 1?
Let me. 13. Let me. Would you like me to read it for you? Lou. John chapter 1. But as many as received him to them. He gave the right to become children of God Even those who believe in his name who were born not of blood nor of the will the flesh nor of the will of man But of God, I believe he's focusing upon the phrase that they were born.
Not of the will of man and in opposition that but of God. Yeah, I have a minute to respond. John 1 10. We need to we need to take a look at God Revealed himself to the world not of blood. What point is Sam trying to make?
I'm not sure that Sam still there. I'm sure not sure Sam snatched. I'm sure I'm Sam still there either. But Sam isolates the verse and he comes to an incorrect conclusion.
Okay, is that your answer? That's my answer. Okay, I believe I understand. Sam's point is one I've made many times when the Apostle John explains the source of their being born again. Which results in their receiving him over against people not receiving him the choice.
The difference between those two is not their quote-unquote free will choice a phrase that appears nowhere in Scripture. Instead the difference Specifically says not the will of man, but of God. God is the one who causes people to be born again.
That is the point of verse 13. Rebecca. I don't see Rebecca in Nolans Nolans Nolans, Louisiana, Rebecca. How are you?
Yes, sir, I'm fine. Okay. My question is primarily for you. Dr. White. Hey, I get a minute. Yay I was I was listening to the debate and there was some talk of God's mercy and grace and with that in mind I Was looking at first John 4 8 where it says in part that God is love.
So my question is if God is love Why would he permit some folks to be born so they can spend eternity and hell apart from God to me? That doesn't sound like love.
All right, well the answer to that is very clear. God is not just love he is also justice he is also holiness. He is also mercy. And every person who will experience eternity in hell is a person who freely Willfully wanted to do the sins that they did and they experienced God's justice.
Love grace and mercy cannot be forced. They cannot be demanded. They must be free to be love grace and mercy. And has to say God must give his redemptive love and his redemptive grace and mercy to every single individual is.
To say that God has to be somehow less than we are that is we do not Give our love the special love that I'm supposed to have for my wife. I am only to give to my wife. I must be discriminating in the kinds of love that I exercise.
There's a difference between my love for my children my love for anyone else's children. So we need to give God that very same level of freedom in how he loves. That was exactly.
One minute. So mr. Ruggiero, you have 30 seconds. Well, Rebecca is correct and he gives everyone the choice. It's not love. He gives us the choice. I see what dr. White is doing if you want to regenerative pride man choosing Jesus and.
That's that's that's your 30 seconds sir, thank you. Um, let's go to Jean in California Jean. Hello. Dr. White. Hello, Lou. Hello.
Hey, I just first of all, I want to make one suggestion that I want to read four verses. My suggestion is this Luke you need to sit down and listen to this mp3. Take out your Bible and listen very carefully because you're contradicting yourself.
All verses 37 through 40 and then I'd like Lou to tell me what they mean. He signs before them yet. They were not believing in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke Lord who has believed our report and to whom has the arm of?
The Lord been revealed for this very reason they could not believe for Isaiah said again. He has blinded their eyes. He has hardened their heart so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart and be converted and I heal them.
Lou it sounds to me like you're saying that Jesus wants everybody to be saved, but that's not what the court from Isaiah means. So, can you please explain to me? What's going on here? Well, yeah.
Chapter 6 10 and. That's pretty much explained in Romans chapter 11, which says accordingly. And drop a pick up to the Gentiles 5 through 27.
Go ahead doctor. Thank you. Well, the problem is that the application made by the Apostle John? Isn't concerning that in regards to Israel and bring the Gentiles in it is specifically in regards to the individuals who had seen the performance of Jesus's Signs right before them and yet they were not believing in him because there is a there is a judicial Hardening going on here, which does seem to be directly contrary to the constant repetition of the libertarian free will position.
That we've seen we've seen this evening. Okay. We now go. Oh goodness all the way across the United States to Steve Steve in New Jersey. Steve you there? Yes, dr. White. Good evening. Good evening.
My question is sort of like I guess it's to your opponent. Well, I don't recall his name. Is it Lou Lou? Okay, I guess I would present it to you, but it actually could be presented to both of you. My question is concerning the hermeneutic that's been applied tonight.
Dr. White presented John 6. He exegeted it. The response. Was it can't mean that because of other scriptures doesn't it? Logically first of all, the first question is doesn't logically follow. That the reverse argument of that would be true that the other scriptures can't mean what you what someone else says because of John 6.
And if that is true Does it not follow then each each of the scriptures have to stand on their own and be understood on their own and then brought together. Not bounced around by. Well, this means this will be.
You know, that means that over there.
Okay, Lou, okay.
Based on 2nd Timothy 316 I harmonized John 6 30. Choice and not who gives me that right to do that and through the other scriptures. Got it. It's impossible for okay on my 30 seconds. I do not believe that.
There has been any hermeneutic That has been applied by my opponent this evening. His hermeneutic could be used to prove anything. I do not believe that it allows the scriptures to speak for themselves.
All scripture is inspired by all scripture speaks within a context. The context of John chapter 6 was ignored and in fact destroyed by eisegetical insertion of tradition that comes from the misinterpretation of other passages and I believe that Folks can see that for themselves.
We only have a little time left and lots and lots of callers mark Greenville, South Carolina. Go ahead.
Hey doctor. Well, my question is for Lou. The tacit assumption tonight has been basically that everyone has the ability on their own to believe and I wanted to ask about act 16 14 and Lydia where it says that the things spoken by Paul.
What's the purpose of that and why is that necessary if we all have ability on our own?
Okay, I've got God blessed her. I'm not saying that man that man should come 25 foot and the scripture whitehead. Because he never challenged. Okay, and I get the last word this evening in 30 seconds.
Everybody read act 16 14 the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. God had to do that the idea that she somehow had some sort of free will Is completely not in the in the text and here we have an example of the tradition.
Mr Ruggiero has a tradition it determines what he sees in Scripture. It makes him turn John 6 44 on its head Matthew act 16 14 on its head and see something in Proverbs 129 that Proverbs 129 does not begin to present at all.
Well, we have come up to the very end of the program this evening. I appreciate mr. Ruggiero is taking his time to be with us this evening And I appreciate all of you who have listened. We're trying to wrap this up.
Some of you may be asking Well, why don't you just go on farther? We want to put in 90 minutes so we can make it available On on a single 90-minute cassette, which is what most of our dividing lines are put on So that's why that you know, if you put 10 minutes onto the tape people get upset because it costs more.
That's the whole point. So anyways, thank you very much for listening this evening. Hope you've been blessed. Mr. Joe. Thank you. We'll see you Tuesday morning special dividing line. Check the website out Convert from Islam from Pakistan will be with us for 90 minutes giving him and us his testimony.
We'll see you then.
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