Finishing Up the Painfully Obviously Series Part 6

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon gonna try to jump straight into it finish up the audience

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Questions on the veneration debate today. I have some other stuff Queued up and ready to go.

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But of course if you have comments on the veneration debate That we have been listening to for a couple of weeks now in response to Patrick Madrid's own claim that it was painfully obviously

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Demonstrated in this debate the unbiblical nature of the arguments I made against the Roman Catholic position on Veneration of Saints and angels then you might want to join us as well today.

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We've got about 25 minutes, I believe 28 minutes of Audience questions, so let's jump right into it

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My question is for mr. Drid and bear with me if I'm not reading this too well In light of the

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Old Testament teaching against communicating with the dead found in Deuteronomy 18 and 10 11 and Isaiah 8 19

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Why is that? why is that different than the Roman Catholic teaching of saints of Saints on earth praying to saints in heaven

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If I understand the question correctly what you're asking is how does necromancy? Which is forbidden in the

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Old Testament compare or contrast with the the Christian tradition?

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Which goes back to the very earliest days of the church of invoking the intercession of the Saints that this the difference would be this in The Old Testament the prohibitions against necromancy are precisely because it was it involved diabolical powers to conjure spirits to raise the dead as we saw with the

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Witch of Endor raising the Spirit of the Prophet Samuel so that Saul could find out what was going on these every place where these things are forbidden it is precisely because it is trying to tap into a power other than God in other words

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It's a way of Falling a falling prey excuse me to the wiles of the devil because this is diabolical activity

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The Catholic Church has always forbidden necromancy open the catechism and you'll see Examples of where the church says this the church fathers speak about the prohibition against necromancy the difference however is that?

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Those who are alive in Christ in heaven if God permits it They are able to hear our prayers answer our prayers

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They're even at times permitted to come into direct contact with human beings here on earth for example on the

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Mount of Transfiguration God himself the Lord Jesus Christ brought into direct contact

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Three living saints here on earth Peter James and John with three living saints in heaven

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Moses and Elijah and the Lord himself For his own inscrutable purposes arranged for this contact between the two of them that was not necromancy now

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I grant the fact that Peter James and John didn't request anything from Moses and Elijah.

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There was no intercession There's no petition. There's none of that stuff and nobody claims But the fact is in and through Christ There is a connection that we have with those who are alive in heaven that is nothing whatsoever to do with necromancy

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Mr.. White the very fact that you have to parallel the absolutely unique experience of Moses and Elijah representing the law and the prophets appearing upon the

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Mount of Transfiguration to the three chief apostles as Evidence the testimony of the law and the prophets the

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Messiah ship and deity of Jesus Christ the concept of the intercession to Saints I think demonstrates just how far one must go to come up with anything that even remotely looks biblical in regards this concept read

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Isaiah 8 19 through 20 When they say to you consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter should not a people consult their

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God Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living the answers those questions are obvious and notice what comes in verse 20

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To the law and to the testimony if they do not speak according to this word

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It is because they have no dawn Go to the law and the testimony

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That is the exhortation of this passage it uses the very same distinction that Protestants use between living and dead

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Aren't all those who are dead alive in in God well of course they are But it's proper to refer to them as the dead and they are not to be consulted on behalf of the living

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The next no applause, please at this point next questioner Good evening gentlemen my name forget it.

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This is for mr.. Madrid Since you both were in agreement that the Saints are truly believers, which is attested in how

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Paul addressed the Saints Can you please explain to me? Why it is that you automatically when you're when you're?

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Conveying scripture about praying to the Saints that you're you're you're Automatically describing things that are already passed away, and not that he's asking for the sentence

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I'm nervous the Saints that are living to pray for each other and not Necessarily the

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Saints that are already in heaven to pray Mr.. Madrid, thank you if I understand your question, and I will

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I will try to state it as I understood it What you're asking is? This the scriptural passages that were brought up tonight

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Deal with the intercession the prayer aren't showing honor and so forth to Saints on earth and Is it appropriate to apply those to the

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Saints in heaven if does that do justice to your question in other words to those verses? Apply also to the

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Saints in heaven yes, are they automatically applied, okay?

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Well the just in a succinct way the best way I could answer that with is yes And that was the thesis of my opening statement, and that is that all of these commandments

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To honor to assist to pray for to to all these things that we talked about earlier those are incumbent upon all members of the body of Christ and The point that I was making earlier is that those in heaven even though we can't see them with our physical eyes

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Hebrews 12 1 tells us they are a cloud of witnesses and the word witness means they're

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They're watching they're seeing us Even the word of martyr comes from that word witness meaning that they are testifying to the the truth of God so These passages that we that we spoke about earlier definitely

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Include by extension those Saints in heaven and my earlier comment

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I think is has still gone unanswered that these are a standing command in Scripture There is no evidence in Scripture that tells us that when the

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Saints Depart from this earth and enter into glory That these things that they were commanded to do here on earth such as pray for us have somehow been rescinded other way to errors

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I have responded of course a number of times and I have pointed out that there are many things that are a part of the Commands that are rescinded when we enter into the presence of God we are no longer for example

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To be engulfed engaged in the striving against sin because we have been relieved from it Etc etc second error is that Hebrews 12 is not saying that the

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Saints in heaven are sitting there like they're sitting in a Stadium watching what's going on here because Hebrews 12 one comes at the end of Hebrews chapter 11

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Which talks about the heroes of the faith and the testimony that they bore was their testimony of their life?

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Not that they are observing what is going on here So this is therefore since we have so great a cloud of witnesses

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Surrounding us let us lay aside every encumbrance in the sin which so easily entangles us that doesn't mean that they're here on earth

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Observing what we're doing they have given their testimony And that's why Paul of the writer to the

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Hebrews not Paul whoever it was can say in verse 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus Not on anyone else including a saint

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Mary or anything else next questioner First let me commend you both for our invigorating agitating and informative debate

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Thank you Knowing that when Jesus was on the cross and the thief said to him may

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I ask who to whom are you directing the question both? gentlemen

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Knowing that when Jesus was on the cross and the thief said to him remember me when you come into my kingdom and Mary was there and Jesus also said

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What did he say now Eli Eli Lama Shabbat Annie my god my god, why have you forsake me

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Mary was there He did not ask Mary to pray for him and I like to ask you both

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What are your comments on that and my second part of the question instead of praying through Saints?

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Could we look at Saints as our mentors? Mr. Madrid I'll answer the second part first.

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We certainly can look at the Saints as our mentors We should look at them as our mentor st Paul reminds us that we are urged to imitate the

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Saints to reflect upon their their lives and and recognize God's Grace working in them and in that way certainly there are mentors.

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That's the purpose behind Icons and images because the icons and images instruct the ignorant they show forth

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The beauty of Christian life as we see it in st Paul or st. Peter or the

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Blessed Virgin Mary So yes, they can now at the foot of the cross. We have to remember what was taking place

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This is the supreme act of sacrifice Christ Redeeming the world through his blood on the cross.

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And so what's taking place there is the repentant thief seeking

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His salvation. He's not going to find salvation through merit He's not going to find it through anyone else only through Christ So the only appropriate thing for us to expect there which is what we see is that he turns to Christ alone he is not looking to anyone else and I'm not sure if there was an another element to your question, but the

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The foot of the cross all eyes are on Christ because everything that is taking place.

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There is Christ centered It's it's it has nothing to do with Mary or anyone else.

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It has to do with what Christ is doing on the cross Mr. White and answer the second part of the question if we use that term in a biblical sense

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Obviously all of our mentors in the faith are saints because we're all saints in Christ.

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There is no distinction as Rome makes and therefore That's the answer the second part as far as the first part.

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It was very interesting that mr. Madrid just said That no one looks to Mary for salvation. It strikes me as very strange that The Roman Catholic Church has fainted and made a doctor of the church

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Alphonsus de Liguri Who in his book the glories of Mary repeats over and over and over and over again?

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prayer after prayer after prayer after prayer where people do exactly that I Entrust my soul to you addressed to Mary if anyone looks to Mary they will not be released

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They will not be lost. I ask any of you that book has gone through 800 editions In many languages and the

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Roman Catholic Church has not only Sainted and made the man a doctor of the church.

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It has never once said that this book contains the Simple heresy that it does and so I would just ask you to take the things you hear tonight and go go find that book

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I Would actually recommend it to you. It is absolutely positively amazing It truly shows the danger of this whole issue this evening and what happens when you abandon sola scriptura in favor of sola ecclesia next question

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Good evening I'm a christian from coming from Romania I discovered the love of god under persecution and problems

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I worship only god and jesus christ and he helped me in a thousand of situation my question to my catholic brothers is

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Will I not go in heaven because I didn't worship holy mary and saints? Or what do you have more than me worshiping them?

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Thank you Mr. Madrid I can say That if you did worship mary and the saints you would not go to heaven

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Because you are commanded not to worship anyone but god So please let's lay that this bugaboo to rest that that somehow catholics worship mary and the saints

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We don't and nobody here is proposing that you should or that we do Thank you I ask that you please hold your applause.

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You'll have opportunity for that at the end to uh to continue with my thought You will not go to hell for for being

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In a situation in which you did not know something was true And you are in christ.

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You love jesus. You're you're a member of his mystical body certainly by virtue of your baptism And so there's no question in my mind

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That if by the time you end your life If god's grace has not illuminated your soul in such a way that you can see the truth

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Of certain aspects of christianity that maybe you don't see right now That no, you will not be damned to hell for that Mr.

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White simply repeating over and over again We do not worship mary in light of the destruction of the lottery of duly distinction for which no answer has been given biblically

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On the part of my opponent this evening is not going to answer to the issue The fact has been very clearly laid out and I would remind everyone of the infallible words the council of florence

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Which said it firmly believes professes and proclaims that those not living within the catholic church not only pagans

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But also jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life But will depart into everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels unless before the end of life

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The same have been added to the flock and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong That only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the church of benefit for salvation

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And do fastings almsgiving and other functions of piety and exercises of christian service produce eternal reward

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And that no one whatever almsgiving he has practiced even if he has shed blood for the name of christ can be saved

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Unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the catholic church end quote denzinger 714

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Next question First of all, thank you both for a great debate Um, this is like a two -part question addressable in In reference to the conversation with the dead to whom are you directing both of them?

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I would like to see how their traditions interpret these two passages in reference to the conversations with dead people in the parable of the rich man and lazarus uses

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Such as a story of a conversation between abraham and the rich man taking place in the afterworld.

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Both of these men are dead If only god could Hear what's in our heart.

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How is it that abraham is able to hear the prayer of the rich man? And the second part to that is back to the amount of terms of figuration

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Jesus is seen speaking with moses and elijah since moses passed away in the old testament.

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He's a prophet What what what type of conversation is taken between? Moses who's dead and jesus who is still alive and has yet to be crucified and resurrected is jesus preaching to moses

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Or is he asking for a prayer? Mr. Madrid? I'm going to concentrate on the first question the issue of uh, luke 16 lazarus and the rich man um, we just go back to the point

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I was making earlier that certainly uh, the rich man in luke 16 was asking abraham for He was asking him for his intercession that he would have his he would have the the poor man lazarus go back to warn his brothers and Abraham himself says that in that place the abode of the of the dead sheol

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There was a great gulf between where the rich man was and where abraham and lazarus were so there was certainly

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A a distance. However, we want to reckon that distance. It was certainly not they weren't near each other

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So there was some way in which the rich man communicated his intention to abraham. I don't know really how much

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We can can lean on that passage to to show What we've been talking about here tonight, but it does show us certainly that Uh, there is a communication that can take place in ways that we don't understand you mentioned briefly

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That only god knows our thoughts Well, it's true that god knows our thoughts but god permits us to know the secret thoughts of other people at certain times for example in acts chapter 5

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When ananias and sapphira were withholding property and pretending as if they were donating all of it to the church

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Peter through the grace of god knew their secret thoughts And so it's really entirely biblical for us to to recognize that if god chooses to permit it his saints in heaven

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Can be aware of those things that are happening here on earth. It's not because the saints are doing it

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God is doing it through them and and I I want to put to to rest one other thing that pertains to this

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There is no argument that the saints in heaven and the saints on earth are saints we recognize

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That the bible says that all christians are saints. So there's this there seems to be this odd A repetition of an argument that's a non -issue really because there's no question that we are saints on earth just as those in heaven are

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Mr. White. Well, the reason i've said that is because we have the concept of purgatory A person is a saint in a technical sense because it doesn't have to go to purgatory because he has excess merit

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Uh, I don't think that's an that's that's an issue at all And uh, hence we have the specific canonization of saints, which is even another category

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But as to luke 16, it specifically says the man cried out. It does not say he prayed to abraham

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So how abraham would know the intentions of his prayer isn't relevant because the man is actually crying out.

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It's not a matter of prayer Uh, but again this this whole issue, uh goes back to you know, we were talking about You know this passage of that passage

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I'm not hearing anything Uh in response to looking at this and going well There's there's no worship going on in luke chapter 16 or any of these other passages

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And I don't remember the second half that do you remember the second half of the questions? Okay, well that'll be the end of the first half if you have two -part questions only ask the first part

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The next question is here and please try to make your question in 30 seconds

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All right, um, this is directed towards uh, mr. Madrid i'm gonna make this quick This is in regard to the fifth point speaking the mic, please.

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I'm, sorry This is in regard to your fifth point you made during your dissertation about um images that you use to remind you of the saints men and and their virtue

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Um, but I want to ask you what about uh romans 7 14 through 27 when saint paul talks about being a slave to sin

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And that's lived uh sin lives inside him and the evil that he doesn't want to do he keeps doing Um, I don't think that we should please don't

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Present you is that a question? Okay. No problem. Yes. Okay I'll take another point in scripture

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Uh second one in matthew 19 17 when the rich person asked jesus Um, what should he do that is good or what is good?

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And um, jesus tells him that that no one is good with god And if you want um eternal life that you should obey his commandments

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And um, one of the commandments the very first commandment. I don't know. Maybe we could read it for the benefit of everybody

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Mr. Madrid Okay, I honestly totally lost track of what the first part of the question was roman 7 14 through 27 okay, the uh

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The fifth point in my talk actually had nothing to do with images. The fifth point had to do with imitating the saints and uh my my uh emphasis on images in with regard to Uh imitating the saints was only that when we see the saints portrayed

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In in art, let's say an icon or a statue or something like that. It recalls to our mind

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That that person's holiness and we are told by scripture to imitate them Now if anything including a statue or an image of a saint were to become an idol

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Then we'd be falling into grievous sin and that's forbidden by scripture by the church. So we we have to make this distinction between being educated and edified by these icons versus Becoming superstitious and falling into that kind of idolatry

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Um, you mentioned, uh, no one is good Except god.

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Well, that's true in certainly in the ultimate sense. No one is good except god but we are told in luke chapter 1 verse 6 that uh that zechariah and and Elizabeth the mother and father of john the baptist

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It says both were righteous in the eyes of god observing all the commandments and and ordinances of the law of the lord blamelessly

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So the saints have a share in the goodness of god not through their own merits But because they are participating

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In the the life of god himself. That's where their goodness comes from And so when we honor them, we are really as saint augustine said over and over again.

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We are honoring god Through his creatures. Mr. White Well, the only comment

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I would make is that the bible actually says that we are to imitate christ and paul says imitate me as He imitates christ

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I think what the question was asking was well since there's this abiding sin Uh, then how can that you know, would that imitation not lead us astray?

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again, the primary issue is that we imitate that which the word of god directs us to not which the words of men direct us to And when we do so we will have a safe guide in everything that we do there are so many incidences in church history when the pope for example gave indulgences to people who visited the

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Uh the house at loretto Uh that was believed to have been carried there from nazareth by angels in the 13th century

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Uh that kind of thing Imitate that no because it's so far removed from the bible

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We need to have that objective standard and thank god we do in the bible I remind you that a question is a reasonably brief statement asking for information the next question all right, this is

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One coherent question. I have a couple scriptures because he mentioned that there was no scripture in the bible

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Saying that there's no difference between me on earth and in heaven or a saint

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And I I you know, what is your question, please my i'm getting to my question You have a few seconds to do it in the bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with christ in for in in second corinthians chapter five

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And also going right along with that. It says in philippians. What is your question? Please?

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My question is this? My my question is this he says that there are no scriptures Now there are scriptures

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In the bible, is that the question? Do you like me to answer that? I would like to I would like to mention a couple scriptures.

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No, sir You have you have the opportunity to ask a question next question. I got a question then philippians chapter one

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Paul says it's more needful to abide with you To be to but but you know if I die and go to be with heaven in heaven

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Then i'm going to be with the lord, but it's more needful to abide. That's not a question. I'm, sorry The next questioner, please.

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That's that is a question though. I'm wondering what mr Madrid, do you care to make a comment? I'll just make a brief comment on that and I appreciate your effort to ask the question uh, neither first second corinthians five nor philippians 1 21 through 23 says

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That to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. St Paul in both passages says I would rather be absent from the body and present with the lord

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So it's an entirely different context here. He's he's yearning for union with god

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He's not saying that by the very fact that we are absent from the body that we are therefore present with the lord

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Uh, and honestly, I just sort of I lost track of what the theme of the question was. Mr White, do you have a comment?

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Uh, i'm not sure if what was just being said, uh is maybe an attempt to Defend something in regards to purgatory.

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I don't know but I I think what was being asked Uh is if the passage is talking about the fact that it is paul was saying it is better for him to remain here

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The argument has been made earlier in this debate. Well Uh, won't we do much more as perfected saints in heaven and that evidently is not what the apostle paul?

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Understood when he said it would be more needful for me to remain with you Uh that he recognized that there was a need of ministry

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And I think if we were to follow the argumentation that has been used this evening out to its logical conclusion

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That wouldn't be the case for any of us all of us could do better if we got to heaven immediately Uh than we're doing now because we'd be perfected and our prayers would be more powerful and everything else

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I I thought obviously not the intention of the uh, the apostle we have time for one more brief question

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This is in mainly at mr Madrid, I'd like to hear perhaps dr Comment somebody mentioned necromancing before I'd like to follow up on that with a practical question about that Um, is there any possibility with somebody praying to the departed and maybe even sometimes receiving a vision apparition?

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That they could fall into an occultic practice or do you believe if they follow roman catholic endorsement that that could not happen?

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Or should we take that prohibition against idolatry and against necromancing seriously as they did today in the old testament days and we should today?

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Mr. Madrid The answer to the question is yes There is always a danger of human beings falling prey to the temptation to idolatry

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It's true of us as it was true of the israelites in exodus chapter 20 so Any catholic who is tending in the direction of either superstition?

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or uh viewing Images or icons as talismans or anything like that? They are falling into a sin and should be rebuked and brought back out of that sinful way

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Uh, there is uh, there's no question about that The thing the the thing that you mentioned at the end though I think is the key to it and that is if people follow the teaching of the roman catholic church

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Will they fall into idolatry and I would give a hearty no And I would refer you to the catechism in which the church sets out

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The guidelines that if you are engaged in this that or the other this is idolatry if you are recognizing the the appropriate place in christian life for images of the saints and you reverence them

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Not in the sense that jim was talking about earlier offering service Or or uh worship to that's not what we're talking here about here at all that No, if you follow those guidelines, then you will not fall into idolatry.

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Mr. White. I think that uh a brief look at brazil mexico spain uh is santa ria um

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Is very good indication that since the latria julia distinction does not exist and since no one can live with it

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Because it doesn't exist since there we know in our heart of hearts that when you see a person Bowing before a statue with beads in their hands lighting candles rocking back and forth

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That that is a religious context and that is worship. Give all the intention words you want remember uzza

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Since that distinction that has found the bible has been overthrown Through the rejection of solo scriptura and the embracing of the authority of rome

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You cannot avoid but fall into those very practices We are to be done the entire question and answer time by 1145 and according to my watch we have about 40 seconds left

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That gives me time to commend you you've been an excellent audience tonight And it's also an opportunity for you to give a commendation to two very gracious and fair debaters

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Okay, there you go. Uh As it was uh said in channel recently

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How many other people would play the entire stinking debate on their program just to respond to a single assertion well, uh, you know as Events just over the past 24 hours have demonstrated when roman catholic apologists

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Want to make claims That simply do not mesh with history Those who honor the truth

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And still have the freedom to proclaim the truth can demonstrate their errors And that's what we've done on this program.

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Uh, patrick madrid made certain claims concerning the debate. I believe that any Fair -minded person a person who is not just completely biased on the subject

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Would have to conclude that the claims that mr. Madrid made Did not match the reality

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Of the debate itself and so we have made this available to everyone. I once again say

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Uh that if by some miracle Someone knows who the catholic patrick madrid was talking to was

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Or the protestant that the catholic was talking to about these things. We would gladly provide this debate

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To free free of all charge to the catholic and to the protestant be happy To do so I remember mr

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Madrid said this would be just for the catholic and they probably don't want to show us the protestant I say show it to both of them have them sit down with an open bible start and stop read those texts

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Check out the context, uh, do a flow chart see who's engaging in serious presentation

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That's consistent and theologically sound and who is not and there

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You go with that so, um It is interesting to me.

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Uh that Uh in the same context, uh, some of you are aware that on the blog starting yesterday

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I responded to art sippo And some falsehoods once again that he has thrown out concerning me.

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He lied to his readers concerning A false accusation that I had in essence confused or did not understand the difference between the heiress and the perfect tense

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Um, I have documented that the only three references he was able to come up with Uh, he's the one who does not understand these things.

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He does has never taught. Uh, The biblical languages in any context with which I am familiar and um, uh

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Clearly, uh is unable to back up his his assertions And so I demonstrated this and I did a dual blog both video and text

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On the subject documenting these things quite fully And of course his response is to post an article on his own blog today.

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That is just one of the most amazingly infantile Uh examples i've ever seen in my entire life of a man who simply believes himself to be infallible

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He will not admit a mistake Uh, he believes he has the right to lie about anyone without being challenged

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And the biggest thing about art simple is he projects himself on everyone else Everything that he himself is doing.

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He will accuse everybody else of doing so He talks about being slandered when he is the biggest slanderer.

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I know Uh, he talks about attacking people when the man doesn't know how to do anything but attack people uh, the man talks about being ignorant of of basic educational issues when he himself is the one who is

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Ignorant and has not been taught in these areas Uh, it's just it's an amazing thing to observe and it's it's

32:57

You know, he oh and then he accuses me of psychopathic problems Uh, and anyone who watches this man and listens this man just goes.

33:06

Whoa, that's scary Uh, because he's like this all the time and people who listen to this program

33:13

Know that i'm fully capable of addressing a wide range of subjects uh in a number of different uh number of different topics and And in to various depths and so on so forth it's just pretty amazing to listen

33:25

Uh to this man and uh to uh, i'm just very thankful. He's on the other side

33:30

He ain't on our side Let me tell you something if if he ever claimed to be I I would be the one of the first ones to say run for the hills

33:39

Uh, here comes art. So anyway, i've I even linked to his blog article because I I just again I think anybody who has even a semblance of of fairness

33:50

All i've got to do is just just put my stuff out there. Let him compare it to that. That's It it stands.

33:57

He stands his own refutation. He's amazing. Uh before I go to other things I uh was sent this uh

34:05

Catholic answers clip and since it really Uh fits right with one of the questions that was asked um

34:13

That I didn't really get A lot of time to engage in this is tim staples. So let's just demonstrate

34:19

Oh, by the way, I did want to mention this, uh art seppo in his blog article Falsely claims that I have asserted that patrick madrid

34:27

Who by the way was the moderator of the debate I had with art seppo in 1991 in toledo, ohio

34:34

Uh that art, uh, that's a patrick madrid joined art seppo in his bad behavior his mocking behavior

34:41

Uh, so on and so forth, uh what i've referred to is the fact and it is a fact Uh that art seppo behaved in just the most egregious fashion during our debate

34:51

And during the cross -examination period they put one podium out And then we had these tables we basically leaned back on it was very awkward.

35:00

It was was not well put together at all and Art seppo would actually hopped up onto the the table sitting on the table

35:11

Swinging his legs back and forth making hand gestures toward me mocking hand gestures toward me toward the audience going

35:18

Hey, look at this guy. I mean this this type of it was the most infantile stuff I had ever encountered in my entire life and I was a lot younger back then but it's still the most infantile stuff

35:27

Uh that I have encountered my entire life. Uh, I have never Ever and again,

35:33

I I as I said on the blog, I challenge him to document this But we've already seen that when you challenge art seppo to document something he doesn't feel any any need to do so Uh, and when he does, uh, it's always wrong.

35:45

So, uh, but I would challenge him Where have I ever ever ever said that patrick madrid did that? Not once never done it and never even thought about it

35:53

Uh, if I have faulted patrick madrid for anything, it's for the fact that patrick madrid did nothing about it Uh, and in fact twice patrick madrid has moderated debates.

36:01

I was in and he's never going to do that again Um, and the first was the very first very patrick madrid

36:07

I guess I should mention this moderated the very first debate I ever did With jerry madatix on solo scriptura in long beach in august of 1990 and in Jerry's first Statement he had 20 minutes

36:22

For 14 minutes. He never even mentioned the topic of the debate

36:28

And I remember leaning over this is my first debate. Okay I'm, not an expert at this point in any way shape or form

36:34

Uh, I remember leaning over to patrick madrid While jerry was speaking and saying excuse me, but when does he get to the topic of the debate?

36:47

14 out of the first 20 minutes it took him 14 minutes to get to even mention The topic of the debate did patrick madrid do anything?

36:53

No, of course not And he did nothing to rein in uh art sippo either. So My complaints about patrick madrid have been as a moderator.

37:02

He didn't moderate Uh, he let people get away with murder in those situations I was going to say when you came back from that debate

37:08

You gave me a full report of what had happened. You never said anything about patrick doing anything besides just Sitting there and letting this man leave the room and do all kinds of other things

37:20

Uh that nobody did anything about it, but as far as patrick madrid participating this this this blog from uh

37:28

Simple is the first time i've ever heard in all these years such a uh, such a claim Yeah, fevered the fevered mind of art sippo is coming up with new things as he as he moves along Uh, the only thing

37:37

I mentioned that patrick madrid did was before the debate remember scott butler had sent a videotape crew And patrick madrid kicked him out

37:44

Said get out of here He called carl keating and said ain't gonna happen get out of here and because at that time scott butler and catholic answers were at loggerheads uh

37:55

You know and and I Mentioned this too I mentioned that the videotapes

38:00

Of the debate with mitch pacwa exist today There's two debates in january of 1991 on justification in the mass and we have the audios of those

38:09

But the videotapes exist. There was a professional videotaping crew there scott butler owns those videos

38:14

He has never marketed them. He will not allow us to market them In fact, I think the one time that he ever talked to us about we had we would have to have paid five thousand dollars

38:24

To get those videos now since then we've learned Uh all about this stuff and realized that he really didn't have a right to do that And if we had talked to lawyers beforehand, we could have done something about it

38:35

But i'm again once again calling on scott butler release the tapes Do what we do what we've done for mitch pacwa.

38:42

We've debated mitch pacwa five times And three of those times we have handed him for absolutely positively nothing

38:51

The unintended masters those debates that he can do with as he pleases Do what we've done

38:57

If you don't then you're demonstrating, you know, what you what scott butler admitted to me on the phone

39:03

That they didn't win those debates. So put them out there, uh, release them send us the dvd of them

39:08

We'll uh, we'll do the editing if that's true If that's what you want to do send us an unedited master of the debates with the mitch pacwa

39:14

Uh from january of 1991 san diego should have some integrity and in my recollection is

39:21

My recollection is uh that there were videotapes going the first debate too with with jerry madita and That the reason those tapes never came out was because there was an argument between scott butler and carl keating as to who was to own them

39:35

Uh, but that debate exists as well. I call on the roman catholics who possess these tapes put them out there

39:43

Demonstrate if you all are gonna be running around saying you've beat up on me in all these debates Then put them out there prove it

39:50

You've got the tapes if we had them we'd have them out there Uh, put them out there do it.

39:56

Uh, that's uh, that would be you know Very very useful. Uh, so anyways,

40:02

I just wanted to make sure that people understood I have never I I went after patrick Over the past number of weeks in this program because patrick was spinning a debate that he lost

40:12

Okay, that's all there is to it. And I just put the debate out there and said here Here's the facts.

40:17

Let's listen to it. Let's examine this Uh, so I went after him and I demonstrated that but I have never accused him of behaving like art sippo

40:26

And as I said in my blog today patrick madrid is light years beyond art sippo in his behavior

40:31

In his ability to speak and to debate um, not even not even the same

40:37

Not even the same league in any way shape or form. So, uh, another falsehood on the part of art sippo that I wanted to uh refute and get rid of Uh, so, uh, as I was saying tim staples is asked a question that is

40:52

Right on the subject of what we were just listening to so I wanted to throw this in here so that we'd have a consistent Uh topic sort of along those lines and I have some other things

41:00

And like I said your phone calls too if you had some comments on the veneration debate eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

41:10

That is a toll -free number for those of you who might be new to the program And we will be glad to take your phone call on that or if for some reason someone actually wants to comment on The art sippo situation

41:22

I suppose since we brought up that would be fine too eight seven seven seven five three three three four one Here is uh, the phone call.

41:29

I actually cut a part of it out because it the guy's introduction was really long Uh, but here's the phone call to tim staples

41:37

On the very same subject of the debate. We were just listening to I've spoken to you before also now my question on the communion of saints.

41:44

Yes is I want you and I know that this is an area that that you're very familiar with Yes, in fact,

41:53

I did a series for Catholic answers called friends in high Places the communion of saints, but go ahead

42:01

Uh my question I would like you to the best your ability with whatever and i'm sure it's higher than I can imagine

42:10

What are there well tell me some patristic References, you don't have to give me documents.

42:17

Just the sure the church father right or as close as you can uh references to uh asking uh

42:29

Uh saints that have gone on to be with the lord right, uh for intercessory prayer now having that's the focus of my question

42:37

I would like to um, I have two Sort of things

42:44

I would like you to think about when you're at I answer it. Okay Okay. Well As you as you probably know from the very earliest uh times in christian history, we find that It was always understood that the saints uh in heaven

43:04

Have a role to play intercessory role and we Can't we can pray to them as well as for them now now notice just like just like madrid

43:13

Just throw it out there. Just just make the assertion from you know, universal from the earliest everybody

43:20

Uh, and especially in this context It's real easy to get away with that because you're not going to have obviously this guy's not going to be challenging that he's not

43:27

Going to be mentioning council of elvira any of the quotations that I gave or anything like that Uh, you just throw it out there and it seems to be

43:35

Honestly, I think there is a manual someplace Uh where these guys go remember to constantly emphasize

43:43

The universal nature of the church in the sense that 2 000 years always everybody just keep pounding that away

43:52

And that'll help people to get the idea even if we're not actually substantiating it

43:57

Uh with anything overly meaningful we'll we'll find if we want to start from the beginning in the first century in the catacombs

44:05

For example the catacombs of sebastian that you can go and visit today uh, we see uh all over Uh references to the early christians who died and they leave on the walls there uh icons or or You know pictures depicting various bible stories and requests for prayer

44:27

Please pray for i'm thinking of a famous one In fact that william jurgens has in his three -volume set on faith of the early fathers from a from a early christian name aberges where he asked for Please remember aberges in your prayers.

44:42

So right from the beginning we have Exactly, you know what we saw even before the time of christ

44:48

We have you know prayer for those who have died and you find that in second maccabees 12 for example verse 46

44:57

Now what you don't have in the old testament that you do in the new testament and with the saints Is the idea of praying to the saints in the old testament?

45:06

You didn't have that because uh, they they You know in the old testament, they did not have the beatific vision as we spoke of with an earlier caller

45:16

They didn't have any way of really uh Communicating with us or knowing what was going on on the earth and except in special cases

45:26

Where god uses for example, rachel and jeremiah 31 15 is a possible example.

45:32

We have samuel Who was uh brought up? From from the dead so to speak.

45:39

I think that's in first samuel 28 as I recall I could be wrong in the chapter there You know But you see in the old testament, you couldn't pray to the saints.

45:47

We see that in the new testament jesus sort of Opens the door to heaven so to speak when he prays to saints in a sense in matthew 17 verses 1 through 3 the moses and elijah on the on the you know mount of transfiguration we have in Uh hebrews chapter 12 verses 22.

46:06

Now that just I that's what I want you to hear jesus prayed to saints Jesus prayed to saints because moses and elijah

46:15

Uh representing the law and the prophets appear in the mount transfiguration with him in glory. Jesus prayed to saints um

46:24

You know does it ever cross these folks minds that maybe if if that's actually relevant along those lines that that maybe just possibly

46:33

You might find something in the rest of the writings of the apostles where they interpreted it that way

46:40

Maybe possibly um Yeah, and then he goes to hebrews 12 misuses hebrews 12 again

46:48

To talk where it talks about you've you've approached this city and it talks about the saints of leon It also talks about angels and so on so it completely misses the context hebrews 12

46:56

And then of course misuses revelation chapter 5. Let's go ahead at least listen to that part 224 the scripture says we can approach to the spirits of just men

47:07

Made perfect. We have revelation 5 now actually it says we just we were approaching the city where they and the angels and It's talking about our participation with them has nothing again

47:19

As bad as going to hebrews 12 uh that this somehow has something to do with communication or prayer so on so forth eight where You know

47:30

Saints on earth are praying to the saints in in heaven So that there's there's revelation 5 where he says see the saints on earth are praying to the saints in heaven

47:39

Nothing in revelation chapter 5 we just listened. I mean was was patrick madrid not given enough time

47:46

In a three and a half hour debate to substantiate This use of revelation chapter 5

47:54

Of course, he was given enough time. Could he do so? No, he could not And so, you know, this is one of the reasons

48:00

I think honestly that they're not doing nearly as many debates at least with people Who can challenge them? Uh as they were back in the 1980s and early 1990s

48:09

Is because it does not help them any longer back, then it got catholics excited and had them giving money because they were had people like jerry maddix beating up on former catholic pastors who

48:22

Didn't know why they left the roman catholic church and they didn't like both Uh, but once uh, at least a couple of us actually started responding to them in a meaningful fashion

48:31

All of a sudden their taste for debating Uh vanished and one of the reasons is they can't get away with this kind of stuff

48:38

They can't get away with this kind of glib. Well, you know, uh revelation 5 you pray to saints, you know, there it is

48:44

There it's in the bible. We win. Uh, well, let's actually look at the text and could you maybe answer?

48:51

where you get that from the text and We heard in the debate that that doesn't go overly well

48:58

Uh for the roman catholic position eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one.

49:03

Uh, let's uh, go ahead and hopefully we're ready to go here Uh, we'll haven't used the phones in so long.

49:08

I hope they don't blow up when I hit the button here Uh, but let's talk with uh miles. Hi miles Hello.

49:14

Hello. How are you, sir? I'm doing great. Dr. White. Um You have to forgive me. I'm old school on the uh,

49:22

Channel and uh, okay the first couple minutes But um, that was my first live debate I ever been to uh was the uh, was the saints and images debate

49:30

And uh, you were you were the one who asked the question about necromancy that we uh Heard at the beginning of the program today.

49:36

Yes. Okay. All righty. Um, but um I'm glad you took it from the worship.

49:42

I mean you you opposed it with you know with proper worship, um um,

49:48

I learned a lot from that, uh, just um I mean i've heard other Protestant apologists oppose this issue from the necromancy perspective, but yeah the issue of proper worship.

49:59

I thought was uh, Relevant not just in that debate but in a lot of what's going on in the church today also Well, yeah,

50:05

I mean, it's the only way to give I think a a biblical response. Uh Is to likewise present a positive case.

50:13

I mean in responding to homosexuality You have to give a positive case as to what proper god's proper creative decrees for human sexuality is and in the same way

50:22

I I do think sadly that a lot of people over the years who have responded to rome Uh have done so primarily out of the fact that they were former roman catholics and just out of a negative rather than providing a positive case for a a meaningful position themselves and so Uh, yeah, and I think he struggled with that because that that's not

50:42

I think what they're accustomed to dealing with as far as the objections their position And uh,

50:48

I also got introduced the first time to chris arnzen's, uh humor I'll never forget the um, what was that the uh, um

50:58

The polish vikings raiding them raiding their own villages. Yes. Yes. Yes his ancestors were he's polish and and uh norwegians

51:05

So his ancestors used to raid their own villages. Yes Yeah, I thought that was just great

51:10

Well, he does definitely break the ice at the beginning of uh of those debates The only problem is that when we had the barry lynn debate we had to lock him in a room

51:19

Uh, just to make sure that he didn't start a riot. So anyway I didn't well, I didn't know if patrick mcdrew wasn't laughing though.

51:25

Oh, well, yeah, I know I know Uh, I think patrick's used to being the one doing the humor and I was a little bit worried about chris.

51:33

But anyway All right All righty, um, I thought Patrick madrid's exegesis was extremely hard to follow.

51:41

Um just you know the whole body of christ and that you know

51:47

Well, it's it's hard. Yeah I understand that both sides might have some difficulties the other side because of the context of their their traditions of I try to Present my exegesis in such a way that a person who is struggling with tradition will at least hear what i'm saying uh, but there is no question that um

52:05

Anyone who's serious about exegesis found big gaping holes In what patrick was saying he would jump from one point to another and he's a good speaker

52:14

He knows how to connect things together But if you're listening and you're thinking on a deeper level, you're like whoa, wait a minute

52:22

He just he just covered uh about you know Four miles of territory that would require a lot of groundwork and he didn't even offer any of it

52:29

And that's just that's what he's forced to do because his ultimate authority is not the exegesis of the text of scripture

52:35

Is his authority is an overriding external dogmatic structure that developed over many centuries today known as roman catholicism

52:45

And and I heard you say this in the channel or seeing you say it in the channel. I mean He engaged people's emotions and you were you were you know, attempting to engage people's minds that night, right?

52:55

Um, I mean and you could definitely definitely see that I mean he was just trying to appeal to you know, um our departed, you know

53:04

Friends and family, you know, they're not as departed as we think they are. Yeah We're all together and we're all one and it sounds wonderful, but it doesn't really address the issue

53:13

No, it doesn't. All right. Well, thank you for being there that evening. That was uh, that was uh, what 2002?

53:18

That was six years ago now. So yeah, are you still out in that area? Um, i'm still in well,

53:24

I I came from Lancaster, Pennsylvania to come here It's about a four hour five hour drive Yes, I know.

53:31

I used to live in Harrisburg. So, all right. Well, thanks miles Take care. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye.

53:36

Bye All right. Uh, well, we only have a few minutes left. So I thought we'd we'd go out, uh with something completely disgusting

53:45

Uh, just to remind you that okay, we've been really focused on one subject But there's a lot of other weird stuff going on out there

53:53

And one of the really odd things going on out there is todd bentley And more and more of this man's wacko idism is being documented.

54:01

Uh, especially on youtube and here All you can do is listen to this and go excuse me

54:09

What this is this man claims to be a christian this man says this is from the holy spirit of god Um, this is about as close as you can get the blasphemy of the holy spirit

54:18

I think uh is what this man's doing. Let's uh, this is on youtube campy has the video on his blog

54:24

If you want to take a look at it Uh, but here's uh, here's todd bentley Thank god for God Thank god for todd

54:44

Bob got healed of a lung condition Come that's so funny bob

54:54

Bob just say bob Bob Every time

55:00

I say the name bob I feel the anointing bob bob

55:14

Bob ha ha i'm getting drunk in the holy ghost now.

55:22

Oh bob

55:42

Come holy spirit pour it out pour it out pour it out pour it out pour it out pour it out

55:51

Bob bob bob

56:15

Now he's shaking his head like my dog did once she got a chicken bone stuck in her mouth Just back and forth back and forth

56:24

So there's uh, there's bob um and uh

56:29

When you get under the anointing of whatever spirit is he's got and all I know is He may have a spirit but uh, it has nothing to do with the spirit found in scripture.

56:38

That's that's for certain. Um, And then he starts making these odd, you know start shaking around and and uh,

56:46

It is truly amazing Uh, you know the fact that this is grossly false and ridiculous and blasphemous and things like that should be really really obvious but what's scary to me is how many people because of the nature of evangelicalism today because of the the decay in our view of truth

57:08

Because we no longer believe That anyone has any authority to proclaim the word of god

57:14

I was looking at another video. We may be listening to a little later on there's a pastor down Um, I think this may have been in texas maybe real close in a couple weeks.

57:23

Uh, but um, uh, probably same city, uh when i'm in houston, I think he's in houston and Uh, they don't have pulpits anymore.

57:30

I I know that's really popular today But you know, you've got a nice stand with some flowers on it, you know

57:37

And you know that just reflects this idea. There's there's no authority. There's no right or wrong Uh, and there's so many people that are so hesitant to just come straight out and say this man's a charlatan

57:47

This man's a false prophet. He's a false teacher stay away from him. This isn't christianity. We separate ourselves from anything like this

57:54

There's some people I don't know. I don't want don't know if I can do that Discernment has flown out the window because to be discerning you have to believe that god has given a clear enough revelation

58:08

No right from wrong And sadly so few today really really Believe that that revelation says venerating saints and angels and mary is idolatry.

58:19

We've proven that now And we've done it again And likewise says that whatever it is.

58:24

Todd bentley's peddling. You don't want to have anything to do with it We will be back lord willing next tuesday afternoon here.

58:30

No morning morning. Tuesday morning here on the dividing line See you then god bless Contemporary we need a new reformation day

59:31

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59:40

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59:47

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