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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity Living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron. Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 12th day of July 2016 and we have another first-time guest here on iron sharpens iron.
Although I have interviewed Her husband, dr. Ted trip on several occasions Today we have for the very first time ever Margie trip wife of dr. Ted trip and co-author of the book instructing a child's heart and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time Margie trip.
Thank you so much. It's my privilege to be here and it's a privilege to have you on the program and let me introduce to you on air.
My co-host the reverend buzz Taylor. Welcome Margie. Good to have you on. Thanks so much and.
I'd like to give our listeners our email address Right off the bat here if you have any questions on raising children. No matter what their age because Margie has experience in all the age groups her all of her children are adults right now so any question that you have at all, even if your kids are Our grown-up married and out of the house, she still has some wisdom Behind her here on this issue and our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Before we even go into the subject at hand Margie. Tell us something about your ministry that you and Ted have launched.
To take the and Instructing it just in the United States and and really Christian groups and our purpose in doing that is to encourage parents to encourage family to encourage children. That there is help from God's Word so that we can live in his way so that we can know his can heal broken.
He can go about the for parents in their child's lives in the best way possible. But always to hold out the fact that we don't save our children nothing we do. They start children that bring salvation, but we want to do the best job.
We can do the plan and correction and nurturing in the lives of our children.
So we have the great joy and for those of you interested in Doing some further follow-up on this ministry later on the website is shepherding the heart org Shepherding the heart org and also I would love for you to look up Shepard press .com Shepard press .com the publisher of instructing a child's heart written by both Ted and Margie trip and Of course Ted trip many of you already know that Ted's trips book shepherding a child's heart Became an enormous seller.
What did it was he write that back in the 90s, I guess it actually.
Between the late 80s and the early 90s. He was writing and I was published in 1995.
Yes, I can remember that. I remember Ted Coming out to the congregation where I was a member and conducting a conference and I can remember there being pastors there from across the denominational spectrum.
There were I. Remember specifically there was a local Pentecostal pastor there that even invited to that to conduct the conference for him later on and it's a remarkable book and It really is. What was the genesis behind this new book?
Well, not new book, but newer book instructing a child's heart that you two have collaborated on. Why don't you let our listeners know what the difference is between? Ted's book shepherding a child's heart and the book that you two co-authored instructing a child's heart.
I think a child's heart is really a paradigm for nurturing our children it is it is designed to help parents see that the behaviorism that is so popular in our culture as the means of constraining and controlling and directing our children's behavior is not biblical that God God looks at the heart and we need to have a bigger vision than just changing our children's behavior and We want to we want to encourage our children to understand their hearts.
What motivates that? External behavior and that's where we went over the course of years now doing Training and shepherds a result of scores of conversations with parents. We've realized that got the model They say I want to shepherd my child's heart holding knowing.
How do I go about doing that. And Instructing a child's heart to be behind the paradigm and then very practical formative instruction is an absolutely necessary foundation for and what we learned from many of these Conversations really another way of saying the same thing is that parents were getting the paradigm I want to deal with my child's heart Rather than just their external behavior but the only time that they were addressing those issues were in times of discipline and correction and They were missing the fact that the formative instruction the instruction that is before the problem instruction heart model so that in times of discipline and correction We can simply appeal to what in our I want to read a couple of.
Commendations for this book instructing a child's heart because they're Well known folks who have written these commendations I want our listeners to take what we're discussing very seriously and this book very seriously.
So I want them to know who has been enjoying it other than me and the ones who wrote it. We have John MacArthur who is certainly no stranger to the vast majority of iron sharpens iron Listeners. In fact, we had the privilege of interviewing. Dr. MacArthur several years ago on the original iron sharpens iron and He wrote biblical practical pastoral this insightful book on godly child-rearing is Everything we would expect from the author who brought us shepherding a child's heart.
It's tremendous value comes from the fact that it centers on the essential but oft Self-neglected heart of biblical parenting the gospel of grace. I am glad to recommend it. Also those of you who may remember Kirk Cameron who was a child star in the 70s or 80s and now is not only an adult and a parent he is a Bible believing Christian and leads the Ministry known as the way of the master.
In fact, they have their own television program and I believe a radio program as well and Kirk and Chelsea Cameron wrote of this book as parents of six spunky children. We found Ted and Margie trips parenting advice to be simply the best in a sea of child raising materials flooding the market today.
Instructing a child's heart is a solid rock on which we can stand. Picking up where shepherding a child's heart left off. This new book is clear biblical and very practical. If you have children you need to know Ted and Margie trip.
Well, that's a really powerful endorsement as well and You know, we already have some listeners Waiting to have their questions asked and answered. Let's see here. We have Emily in Deltona, Florida and Emily writes Hey there.
My name is Emily. My husband and I have one son who is one and a half. So we are definitely so we definitely are facing some behavior challenges. We strongly believe in discipline and instruction but also want our son to experience grace.
There are times when he will disobey several times in a row. After being disciplined for doing wrong and instructed to obey. When is it? When is it ever appropriate to use a Distraction as a way to help him when he is not listening to the instruction given.
Example. Amanda is One and a half able to talk say yes. No able to obey instruction when given. Amanda is playing in the living room with her mother. She throws a toy at her mother. Her mother tells Amanda to not throw at her and if she goes if she does it again She will get punished.
Amanda says sorry, but throws the toy again. The mom punishes her. Amanda apologizes and then goes on to throw more toys. When does the mother take Amanda to a different room to distract her from throwing the toy?
Does the mother continue to sit there and continue disciplining as many times as Amanda will throw. Even if it's 15 times in a row. Wow, well, I don't know if you could absorb all that.
Margie, yes. Well, I I I would like to answer that there is a difference be to obedience. I think often parents Discipline dish the fact is the young children are very impulse and our our perspective Is that if your child is defying you?
Then you need to use that term rather than children are impulse things. They need to be reminded of the house and we want to be careful that we're not bringing Discipline to this instance playing with their in the water.
Hey from mommy is another Illustration and they'll giggle and run away. But mommy's serious caveat that we've got to distinguish between childish parent has indicated you have brought correction you over and over and over again, I would Try to distract the child.
I do some other activity. But first before it would make every array for them. Fiant then that is not defiant. It's not saying no, I will do what I want to do.
Well, Emily, guess what? You have won a free copy of Instructing a child's heart by our guest Margie trip today. We'll need your full address and we'll get that out to you God willing within a week or so and we hope that you are blessed by that.
And we got another surprise for you Emily because you're a first-time Questioner, I don't know how long you've been listening to our program, but we've never received a question from you before. You're also getting a brand new New American Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the NASB who have been supporting iron sharpens iron since we very first launched in 2006.
So thank you very much Emily for listening to iron sharpens iron and keep your eye open for the book and the Bible. And what she described reminds me of something. Now there's a couple of things that actually reminded me of.
Number one if I was in that room With Emily and that baby. I would probably start laughing which would only encourage the child To continue doing what the child was doing. I guess in a situation like that when people are observing something like this and they're finding it funny They should probably hold back a laugh and leave the room or something shouldn't.
Absolutely, and I think that would be when it would be wise for the mom to take the one-and-a-half year old to another place to talk with them to interact with them about the behavior and so forth rather than Encouraging that kind of banter that I think.
And another thing it reminded me of is that?
How are you? Especially with a very very tiny child like this a year and a half. How are you supposed to? Differentiate between the fact that I have seen and have done it myself. Where parents of to have fun with a child will chase the child around and they'll be both laughing and giggling and I'm gonna get you I'm gonna get you that gonna.
And then of course the children equates that with fun and laughter. So when a child is that young isn't it gonna be kind of difficult to differentiate with that child.
I think you help the child by I'm not speaking of anger, right? But in a voice that Helps the child begin to discern and even talking to the child in very simple terms and saying now we're playing. This is play.
But when mommy speaks to and says I want you to come now and Use that tone of voice. It is a firm tone of voice help the child Understand that that means you to okay, and I think even very. I know That even very young children, you know children are able to understand far before they can articulate Right that they're thinking and feeling and parents often make the mistake of thinking my child can't express themselves.
Therefore they do not understand and that's simply not the case, right?
And of course believing in total depravity as we do these children even before they can speak. No, very often when they are disobeying and they're purposely doing it. That's right.
You know a good way to discern that is if you do not want to be under my direction and that does an Excellent indicator. And parents know their own chest that I've. Yeah speaking of our own children.
You raised six. I understand that. Three three the adult children three adults. Okay, and what were they as far as boys girls?
Oh, our oldest was a boy who is now 47 and we have a daughter who is 42 and our youngest son is 41. Oh, they're very grown.
Yeah, I think the way you're thinking very mature. You're thinking of the Kirk Cameron endorsements.
Okay.
Well now you brought up.
Well in in John MacArthur's commendation of your book He mentioned the gospel of grace. How does that make a difference compared to Let me say other evangelical works written on the subject of rearing children.
Tell us the difference.
Well, I'm I believe that Typically and this happens I'm afraid in the body of Christ across the whole spectrum of Evangelicals is that we are very very good at bringing the law but we Forget to that. We need to bring the gospel as often no more often than we bring the law and We somehow we have the expectation that the law is going to change people and of course We know in our own hearts that is not true.
But we forget the grace that we have experienced and we bring the law to our children. Somehow expecting that you can do better than you're doing. This is what I expect if you know, what is right? You know what is wrong?
Therefore? Ike's not possible for any of us. But in our child rearing that's often what we do and so I often say if you're going to hang the law of God on the walls of your home and on the walls of your law without and and rebellion.
Yeah, I would think that the being heavy-handed with the law and not sufficient grace in The way you raise a child would make them too terrified to be honest with you. Yeah, and they may be more prone to hide things from you and there may be some very very dangerous and serious things.
They're hiding from you as a result. Yeah, and I guess it would make a major difference, too. If I'm understanding what you're saying, correct, if I can just try to put it in other words. You know, I think of.
This is ancient history when I was growing up. Yes, you know so many times I was punished for misbehavior and I had no idea Why I misbehaved. It's like I couldn't you know, I remember you didn't know what was the sir.
You didn't know that the circumstances were being disobedient or you don't know why you were being just I didn't know why. Why you were a bell? Yes. Yes.
It's like R .C. Sproul said when he stole the melon when he was young, okay that he didn't even like melon. You know, I did. I did all kinds of you know, little sinister acts and you know I could not understand why I was such a joy in doing that.
You know, I we're still praying for your salvation. Thanks.
You know, we want to please our parents and at the other on the other hand we realize for some reason I can't you know I can't live up to it. So is that basically what you're saying is they need to understand?
Well, we do have this problem. It's called sin and we need to overcome it. Mom and dad need to overcome it. You need to overcome it and we're gonna help you in any way. We can understanding that you're not going to be perfect because you can't.
One of the huge problems for having the law without the gospel is that the parent has to behave as if they are above.
Yes.
Because the the requirement if I'm saying to my child This is the law you must obey it and I will not accept anything else. If we can't we can't maintain that. Ourselves, and so our mouths are shut. We cannot acknowledge our own sin.
The problem with that is our children watch us all day every day, they know we're sinners and. So this creates in the child a real resistance to relationship to authority Christianity to to everything that we want to so desperately to be true for them.
But there's a huge difference if I can come alongside my child and if I can say to them The reason why you're struggling in this way like struggle Christian culture law Standard up and we should in order for our children biblical ever children and there is no grace.
We will destroy our children. Our relationship. The gospel, you know Chris, I don't suggest we do this.
But I almost feel like we could almost end the program right here. What she just said is such a mouthful and what a what a difference that makes and well you can leave buzz. But I mean, of course I was raised in Fundamentalist circles and There was a lot of law, okay.
There was you know, that's basically the way it was was talk about everybody who sins and and don't you dare and I? Have seen in in so many of my friends even where. And and other family members where they've been raised in the church.
They've gone through the youth groups. They've Been there every Sunday some even go to Christian school and Yet they get to a certain age when they get out of the home or slightly before they get out of the home.
There's that backlash of rebellion and they they fall away and many of them never return. Hmm.
Yeah, and the fact you could see that and Margie I'm sure that you have witnessed this with adults who are members of either a cult or They are in some kind of a really legalistic strict Fundamentalist faith of some kind and then they after realizing they're on a treadmill going nowhere for years.
When they leave they don't wind up in a more balanced Church very often a more grace centered Church with the true gospel and so on. They wind up just abandoning the faith or at least Connection to a church altogether and I've I've seen that a number of times in my 54 years of life.
Where that happens. Where there's a pendulum that goes all the way from the the Pelagian works righteousness strict dictatorial kind of Church that they're in or cult and then they just swing right out of it and then never return to a church at all.
Yeah, I think there is a we've observed this in Christian education in the body of Christ. We've talked with just Hundreds and hundreds of parents about an amazing thing that when Children or young people come to faith out of an unbelieving background They are so moved with the gospel and they are transformed in the most amazing ways.
But often children who are raised in Christian homes where there is a Form of godliness that denies its power where the law has ruled Distance there's hostility there's disinterest and Generally abandoning Christian.
That's the reason when when a person comes to faith out of an unbelieving background Power of the gospel to change us from the inside out They are transformed by that because this is new and beautiful and exciting.
That's very different than a child who's been raised in a place where the law has been Predominant and where they have not seen that kind of transformation. That's living on not out of the law, but out of the great.
It's just incredible.
Stuff. Hey, man, we have to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. We already have Several people waiting and I hope that you can be patient.
We'll get to you as soon as we can when we return from the break. But if any of you would like to join them on the air with a question as well. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And I understand if you're asking a question that is really a sensitive private personal Question, especially.
Perhaps it even involves.
Another.
Parent. And you don't want to reveal yourself because they'll know who exactly who you're talking about. In fact, we would insist that you not Do reveal who you are or who especially who they are? But you may remain anonymous that makes you feel more comfortable.
And again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio. Here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.
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Call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in for the last half hour We have been interviewing Margie trip and we are going to continue for the following 90 minutes.
And we are discussing her book co-authored with her husband Ted trip Instructing a child's heart if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
Before I return To the interview. I just have a couple of very important and brief announcements. Christ Presbyterian Church a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Denomination in Salt Lake City, Utah is having their conference coming up this weekend.
Featuring my dear friend of nearly 30 years. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and The theme is who is Jesus? This is going to be held from this Friday through the following Monday and During this four-day conference. Dr. White is going to be having a dialogue with a Mormon Mr. Alma Alred an instructor at the LDS Institute of Religion at Utah at the University of Utah.
And the dialogue will take place in the social and behavioral sciences auditory an auditorium at the University of Utah. That is going to be on the theme is the Jesus of Mormonism the Jesus of the Bible.
The following day Saturday the 16th at 7 p .m. The theme will be who is Jesus and that is going to be a dialogue that dr Is having with an Islamic imam at the Utah Islamic Center in Sandy, Utah and There are other subjects that dr. White will be teaching on during this conference including the theme the Forgotten Trinity.
The theme near and dear to my heart because the book of that same title that dr White wrote is dedicated to me and I will never forget and never be thankful enough to him for doing that and He is also going to be on the last day of the conference teaching on proclaiming Jesus Christ in a hostile culture.
For more details, you can call eight zero one nine six nine Seven nine four eight eight zero one nine six nine seven nine four eight. Or you could go to the website gospel, Utah org that's gospel Utah org and you can email pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church at Jason OPC at AOL comm that's Jason OPC for Orthodox Presbyterian Church Jason OPC at AOL comm and last but not least the Fellowship Conference New England is having their conference at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine this August 4th through the 6th Pastor Mac Tomlinson who has become one of my favorite Guests here on iron sharpens iron is one of the speakers.
Other speakers include Charles Leiter Jesse Barrington and Michael Durham and If you'd like more details on this conference You can go to Fellowship Conference New England comm. That's Fellowship Conference New England comm and we want to thank them for sponsoring iron sharpens iron radio.
And we thank you For helping to keep us on the air as we seek to give praise honor and glory to God for all good things especially our salvation and We're back to the interview now, and we do have some listeners still waiting.
But before I go to Tom in West Islip, Long Island. I do want to have you follow up on something that I said earlier. That I never heard a response about specifically Margie in regard to is it Is one of the dangers of being overly strict is that children will naturally be too afraid.
To admit things to you that may wind up being very dangerous for them.
If we if we think of God that if as his children we consider him the loving father the forgiving and Father to him with our with our deepest needs from him and Respond to they see us and understand their plight as sinners and bring them to the see us as unrelenting unforgiving.
It's interesting that You are consistently comparing the relationship between we who are Mortal sinful humans and our heavenly father and that relationship which exists between a parent and child. Even though the parents are certainly not God there is a connection in the in the parallel just as there is with Jesus Christ being the groom in the marital analogy that he himself has Established in regard to the relationship between Christ and the church.
Yes, I think I think it's very important for us to see that. You know as parents we give God oh since they cannot see him the things that we say and do Represent him. We are his agents. We know that from Scripture.
We are as agents get an impression about who God is and what he is like. What his parenting of us is like spiritually, I think Hebrews his son just as he delights in and. So there is no question in my mind that God has given parents.
He Resources to parent our children. Parents us not perfect. Now. Have I answered your question? I've come. Oh, yes, definitely and.
Tom in West Islip, Long Island, New York Says I've always had issues with being.
Dictatorial.
Versus collaborative in dealing with Consequences when a child either does something wrong or is not meeting my expectations Example would be schoolwork and not performing at an acceptable level. Do you have words of advice?
For Tom in regard to his prone to being a dictator.
Well, yes, I think you know even the things that we just spoke of certainly Applied there. God is not dictatorial. We have his law that if his law, of course exists Not only to show us our need of salvation.
In fact that we cannot measure up freedom for us because the God who created us has told us how to live Successfully in the world that he's created for in him glory and true. It is not dictatorial. His law is not to us.
And so we need to see our Instruction and direction and nurturing of our children. Editorial we are moving them away from a picture and God's purpose always Not only in his instruction but even in his chastisement of his children is not to punish us.
The only time there is punishment is in that great day when God separates the sheep from the goats now. We we suffer consequences. Chastisement and consequences that God brings into the lives of his people are not to punish them.
They're always always God's everywhere in his word. So I think that look into God's word to see and I would I would recommend certainly that Hebrews 12 He loves just he finds the light. We've got there are two chapters in instructing a child's heart.
One is called the sowing and reaping principle applying the sowing the things I said I've been very general in my comments, but they are what are we trying to accomplish? Oh them. God's law is and even as we shape Consequences for them must always be not just to change their behavior And get them to stop doing what they're doing or to do what we want them to boy striving to drawing art.
Sure. Yes, it's and it's also.
When a parent is behaving that way they are treating someone they love in a way that they themselves Do not ever want to be treated.
Yeah, and.
It's almost like the the ungrateful person in debt who is Released and then is found beating the person who owns them money. Yes.
Yes, you know, I think Christ is such an excellent example For us because he could have stayed off in heaven and just you know shouted down get your act together down. Tired of you doing that. I don't want to see this anymore and you're gonna pay for it.
You know that Christ could have done that but he didn't. And he models for he came and he in flesh like our flesh mortality fallen mortality. That is life in a fallen world in flesh like ours. Why did he do that.
Hebrews 2 tells us he was made like his brothers in every way. Well, I'm pretty calling isn't it. In Philippians 2 let this mind be though his grace at work in us to behave in those ways. But I went about our heaven when we whatever kind of children's.
Mm-hmm.
It seems like this process also something that can be very well applied after children are grown. Because I mean like I'm sure there's many listeners right now who are saying oh, thanks now I hear this.
You know, my kids are grown but yet you can always go back and say hey, you know this is how the gospel works and. You know, I didn't all I didn't understand back then you know. Kind of you know, can you speak to that issue like back paddling because so many people are.
Yes, we have we have that question. So often late. Yes, or parents just say it's too late for me and we say it's and what what we recommend in those situations Is for parents to it takes a lot of humility, but when parents have had the conviction that Washes over the heart in those moments when you find I didn't represent My my heavenly father or my brother Christ well in my parenting is to have the humility to pray and if there's spouse of it and talk with them.
We're worth it to find a time when they can go to their even adult thinking about something and God has brought something to my attention Through his word and I Just want to and really ask their children to forgive them.
We're not rep this for a number of years. Sometimes it results very rapidly other times we say well, thank you for that.
That's excellent. And you brought up something very very important actually repeated it the importance of a parent. Asking forgiveness to the child that's something especially I think is difficult with fathers.
And perhaps you you have more experience to know whether it's more of an equal problem amongst mothers and fathers. But I know people who have told me that their fathers never Have apologized for anything even when they have done great wicked things.
And one thing that I am very thankful for with my own father is that He was far from perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but my father was always humble enough to admit when he believed he was wrong. And Or when he realized he was wrong and he would apologize fairly often I can remember him coming to me as a child and apologizing to me for losing his temper or doing something that was just you know worthy of.
Evoking a request for forgiveness so That's a very important aspect of being a parent, isn't it? Because I understand that there probably is a struggle going on in the mind of if I apologize. Especially if I apologize too often, it's gonna be a sign of weakness.
It's going to be a sign that I am I am giving up control of this household that kind of a thing. I.
Those.
Conundrums who think that it is a weakness to to ask for any relationships that you have. People who have the strength of character and Humility because those go together.
To.
In accurate and forthright way say This is what I did. It was wrong. Please forgive me. They are people who take take on stature in our eyes. Isn't that true? Yes. All right. Now that is different than the person who's always because of Neediness of their personality is just always side.
That's it that's a different right when we are we're reflecting on on the issues of parenting. And our parenting style when we have the the humility and strength I always speak to come to our children and Identify for them ways that we know we have failed that does two powerful things.
It's a stumbling block For them, you know, they have the when they're younger. Obviously when they get older they get more courageous about telling us or they're younger. We're removing a stumbling block in Relationship and the other thing that demonstrating to them What it means to be a repentant and we live in a culture that is not a pop.
No one says they're sorry for anything because everyone I've got my own space. I do what I want to do. No one tells me what to do. And if you don't like it too bad, and it's not my fault that moves us away from the exact model of Humility the God who is our Authorities are heavenly father, but he's all and so we we want to take every opportunity to model appropriately for our children having the strength of character and humility To acknowledge our faith.
They're going to repentance. Amen. In fact, I.
Instinctively look upon my past and See that my father's humility to ask me for forgiveness was something very admirable and honorable and something that I I Obviously I treasure as a memory. Whereas the people that I know who don't recall ever hearing their parent Asking for forgiveness They look at their fathers who behave that way as cowards in reality because they couldn't face.
They were too frightened to face up to the fact that they were wrong. We have to go to another break right now. And if you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.
Chris Ornson at gmail .com. By the way, Tom in West Islip, Long Island. Thanks for the question and you are also getting a free copy of instructing a child's heart by our guest Margie trip and So we look forward to having that shipped out to you by our friends at CV BBS Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who ship out all of our Books that people have won Listening to the program.
They help us out by Alleviating or eliminating the cost of that shipping from iron sharpens iron and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings over at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for Doing that every week and it's getting to be more and more frequent that they're actually shipping out books because we're getting more and more authors on the show nearly every day now, but We look forward to hearing from you and your questions after we return from the break at Chris Ornson at gmail .com.
Chris Ornson at gmail .com. Don't go away.
Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying to please? Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi. I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things?
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles priority It must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.
And love. If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in for the last hour and the next hour to come our guest has been and will be Margie Tripp co-author of instructing a Charles Hart. And if you'd like to join us on the air the question for Margie.
Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. We have Tyler in Mastic Beach, New York. Asking why do you think that many professing Christian parents send their children off to public schools?
To be brainwashed into moral relativism. Is it a lack of discernment or is it ignorance? It also might be Tyler a lack of money because not all Christian schools. In fact, very few of them have free Scholarship programs, but if you could Margie.
This is a question that is asked of a recommend homeschooling Christian school or public school and our answer all always is there is not one's. Dynamics and circumstances of people's lives are very very different and often require of must do the big issue as far as we're concerned regard I'll see themselves as the primary agent of educating nurturing discipline and correction in the lives of their experience and in our children in the height known to.
And we did not allow the the counselor we chose them and we and then we discussed with the guidance counselor why we had Not chosen that were values clear and when they came home at night classroom or a public what they were doing.
We often read the material was necessary. I'm hearing what the world critique. Things. In fact, it is a very dangerous thing if our children leave our homes and we have sheltered them in an Inappropriate way to the extent that they don't know what the world is saying because here's what will happen.
They will go out into the world one day and they will see that there are Intelligent people even nice people out there who do not believe what we believe. Mm-hmm. And if they have gotten the impression that the things that That we believe are the only intelligent things.
Are the only things that are worth hearing then? They're going to get thrown for a loop now. We know that our truth our biblical truth is the only truth. But for a child or a young person their high school years or into their college years.
Who realize all of a sudden there are reasonable intelligent thinking.
Considerate.
Philanthropic People out there who believe something different if they've never been exposed to that and had Their parents or the people around them in their unity interact on.
Non-biblical ideas. They are going to be sitting ducks. Yes. That's why the classical Christian school model typically introduces children to secular forms of literature and even will. Not. We will not teach evolution as something true, but they will teach children what?
Non-christians and those who have a non-biblical worldview believe about. The origins of life in the world and so on.
So I believe that if we're if people are in a in a situation where because of their circumstances of life, they have they are not able to do homeschooling or perhaps cannot afford Christian school. Then I think that there are ways that they receive an education.
But be so heavily Invested in that education that they're. They're the school where the children attend the teachers their children have and the children. Recognize that my mom and dad are the primary agent of my education here.
Yeah, I could still remember being a little kid in my older sister coming home from college and we were raised in a Catholic home and I can still remember my sister coming home from a Loy College and saying to my mother Hey mom, you know what?
I found out I found out all that stuff about Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark that was all just lies or fairy tales. These things didn't happen. And of course, I went to grammar school at a Later time than my older sister.
So by the time I was in grammar school in the late 60s early 70s I was being taught that as a little kid in the Catholic parochial school so It's it's obviously that we weren't even safe in a parochial private school.
But of course being a Catholic school, they weren't functioning in the same way a.
Truly.
Bible-believing Christian school should be fun right in regard to the Word of God and in the inerrancy of the scriptures and so on.
You made a comment quite a while ago about we do not save our children. I think sometimes we. Largely because of the gospel that's preached today. In in most of evangelical churches, we kind of get the impression that if we don't say it, right.
They're not going to get saved and we've got to get them to do certain things or we think that. You know, our goal in life is to get them to pray a prayer of salvation. Could you address this issue of evangelism and our children and how we really cannot save them.
Could you enlarge on that?
Yeah, I think it would give me no hope if I thought if I got everything right that my children would be Christian because I never get everything right, you know, that would be no encouragement to me at all.
I think often too, you know, we. And this is a kind of a two sides of the coin. I'll just mention it quickly the parents often if their children. If their children are struggling the parents feel and and there may be some fault that falls to them.
But we can no more Take credit for our children's decision to walk away from God. Then we can take credit for our children's decision to walk with God. Because our children's decision to their own decision.
We are not a part of that the person always stands one-on-one with God. And there's no one else in there. We've got to be careful that we don't either have the expectation or Strive, but we will become will become overbearing because bearing In our manner towards doing what the scripture calls us to do see our home.
You know, we often treat our children differently than we would treat In our neighborhood. We're going to leave the gospel. And I don't know if that we need to beard of God demonstrate. I've experienced.
It's amazing to me because right after thing after we have that very day. Amen. It is our personal Every day we can the catechisms, but if our children don't see it so I think that the the way we evangelize our home brings the truth of the Word of God and brings the Demonstrating children to our lives our dependence on that grace.
Yeah, we try.
You know, that's that's definitely much better than well the word that comes to my mind in the over strict environments and Where there's a lack of grace is devotion time.
Turns more into a Bible bashing time. Yeah, and the way we live either. The way we live either. Breathe life into our devotional time, but it makes a lie of it. And here what I'm saying. Yeah, I think we and we don't think about that because we you know, we'll have devotions and then ten minutes later, you know.
Mom is complaining Against dad or you know, or dad is using harsh words towards mom or you know. Okay, or you know. And what we're doing is we're saying all that stuff that we just did around the. Or it only has to do with this little portion of your life.
We were speaking about schools before and it sounded like you were about to make a statement but But perhaps got sidetracked, but I don't know if you could remember what you were going to say, but in the meantime What I was going to bring up also is that Do you think that parents? Sometimes have an unrealistic Confidence and not only their child's salvation But their ability to be serving as a junior missionary out there.
I mean like for instance, I've heard parents say I want to send my kids to the public Schools because I want them to evangelize the their lost classmates and I've even heard Headmasters of Christian schools that have a different philosophy.
There are Christian schools that will Some will insist that both Parents are Christian and perhaps even members of the church or denomination running the school. Some will insist one parent is a Bible-believing Christian and at least.
And Some will say we don't really care whether or not the parents are saved because we want Their children to hear the gospel and they the parents have to give permission to us to Allow us to do that.
So but then you have that whole concept of the children Who are the students being in the midst of of children who don't even have the benefit of being raised in a Christian home? Saying and doing and teaching their fellow classmates all kinds of ungodly things and The the view is that these kids are supposed to be capable of being.
Missionaries and evangelists when they might not even really be regenerate. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a rose one. It's no longer evangelize one another to the point where they would inappropriate training to them and encouraging that kind of spiritual development.
And encouraging them to to know God and trust God remembering all the time that it is God's work and not ours. Personalities, I mean, I know and just now it's a young people personality. I have to be wise not to be pushing our children to be who they are not doing that in different ways.
But I don't think the context is often war had come. Yes. Troubling to understand and maybe they might be where they wish we do have.
Bob in White Plains, New York. Who asked what do you think of James Dobson's book the strong-willed child. And how is your philosophy different? From dr. Dobson's what age do we start and that's kind of the second question.
I'm not sure what exactly he means by that. But what age do we start. But you could fill in the blank with a lot of things. But um, if you could Margie at least let us know about the dr. Dobson.
Question. Dr. Dobson's a strong-willed child. I don't know that I'm familiar with exactly what you're speaking of but I I think that certainly and you what you might be speaking of is I think and You know how you deal accountability so feel free to clarify for me if I've misunderstood your question.
Well, obviously Bob will have to email me another quote.
A clarification. Well, are you more familiar perhaps with dr. Dobson's book dare to discipline?
Because I think the strong-willed child is sort of like dare to discipline on steroids, so.
Oh, you see. Oh, so, you know about this book that actually believe it or not.
The strong-willed child was one of the first books. I read as a Christian Long before I was married and I have no idea why I read it.
Well, well we can make it more of a general question because and you don't have to be fearful of being critical of somebody. As famous as dr. Dobson. Dr. Dobson, although I think he has contributed many wonderful things To the church at large and to the world he seems to have had an improper emphasis on the Self-esteem of a child or even an adult and There are other things that have followed through with that and of course since he is not theologically reformed There are other ramifications that follow with that Philosophy, but if you could if you care to yes comment further.
Okay, I think that the yeah the the idea that we have to walk on eggs around our children pleat Misunderstanding of Loving nurture. We don't need a good self-concept. I think that too often We fear having our children have an accurate understanding of their and When we do that We we move them away from an understanding of their need of the gospel.
We can't Appreciate what Christ has done for us until we realize how damaged we are yes by sin, and so I think that that whole idea and That we have to that is as you said on steroids and our curse every once a winner some way.
And that really moves us away from understanding our fallenness and the fact we are needy people. We need a Savior. And I know my experience as a young person growing up. And I grew up in a Christian home wonderful Christian parents.
But I never understood a chidness of my condition in fact. It was a sermon that I her husband and I were married from Romans 3 and the sermon made me very angry. In fact, I and And I said, you know, I know good from evil.
I was raised in it but you know God's Spirit worked through that sermon and I had to acknowledge that even my Tirade at the pastor at the end of the sermon back that my mouth was an open grave. And the poison vipers was on my lips.
God you that truth to show Craved I am I yes out of curiosity.
Is that pastor aware that you've seen the light since then? Oh my you know, what happened is.
My husband and I had been married very short time and Both really even though we had been raised in Christian. He really came to the next week because God had worked in my heart that week. We went back to that church and I asked that dear pastor pastor Bob to please forgive me.
And he and his dear wife took us home to lunch and that ended up being not only the first Church where my husband preached his first sermon. But also the church from which we left for my husband to go to seminary.
Is that right? That's wonderful.
Now speaking of actually picked it up when we return from the break is a little okay. This is our final break right now. So just maybe make a note buzz so you don't forget what I got it. And if you'd like to join us on the air, this is going to be your last opportunity.
Well, the next half hour will be your last opportunity because believe it or not. We've we're almost out of time. This this two hours is flying by like a bullet. But if you'd like to join us on the air again, our email address is Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen a gmail .com. And I thank those of you who are waiting to have your questions asked and answered are Are still there waiting patiently, so we will be Getting to you and your questions as soon as we can after the break.
So don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes, we have been interviewing Margie trip on her book instructing a child's heart and If you have a question of your own You better send it to us as quickly as you can because we're running out of time.
And we got about 23 minutes or so left and our email address is Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen a gmail .com and Reverend buzz you had a question. Yes, I can hear coming through from other listeners, too. So I'm sure I'm asking this on behalf of many people. But we were talking about when children have a strong will and one of the places Where that seems to come out the most is in public.
You're in a restaurant your children. No, you're not gonna spank them or whatever there. They know that that's where they can get away with the most and they start misbehaving in public.
What do you suggest in such a situation? Is that well a number of things if it's a it's if it's a real Donnie Brooke you might want to Get your bill and leave. But I think I think that making that child perhaps you can Talk to the child and say calm down or when we get home now, obviously one year old.
That's very different than if it's a nine-year-old. Parents often say well if if I say that to my children, you can't do anything and I'll do anything we want. We say well if they're that smart, then they'll remember when you get home and and you can say and.
So I think that trying to quiet the Situability trying to deal with it can be dealt with in that context. But recognizing that the majority of your life is not spent in a restaurant. The majority of your life or you know, it answers his health or whatever.
Those public venues are majority of your life. You may choose to overlook Some issues or just deal through whatever you're trying to a car and then recognize we've got an issue here. Especially if it's a pattern of the issue here that we need to be going to God's Word.
What do I do when my child does identify the issue? We say well one rather than being reactive struggling in this area what I mean. You always want to use to a passage of Scripture that and Probably sometime tomorrow.
This struggle is going to present itself. We want to be first. It calls us to faith in this world even and they love this. Honey, if we don't pray about this on what you're able to bear with a promise of of Hebrews chapter 4 In your time of need so honey, we don't want to be like soldiers who go into battle in our spiritual underwear.
That wasn't a bash against Mormons, was it?
You.
See the enemy a long ways off, you know. Chris. I like her answers.
That's good. And we have Aaron from Indianapolis, Indiana asking as a non parent or a Non-sunday school teacher. How can I as a church member or an aunt or even in the world? What are some ways I can speak best to encourage a child in brief settings perhaps to cause them to focus on?
Building or to value godly character.
Well, it certainly depends that you come on this spectrum from compassion and perhaps. Well, I can't remember all the with the temptation I provide a way of it to be. People who practice with our kids.
Practice.
That's hard to even do with something. Think I know the next time I will say but if you don't first say it out loud. It's hard to say. So I think it's good that I'm in where I could speak in. And what are the typical things the passages of script?
I in positive and gracious and kind. Otherwise, our mouths are stopped the opportunity flees and and it's lost once again. Mm-hmm.
We do have an anonymous listener who asked. I have been divorced for approximately 20 years. My husband had abandoned me and the children for quite a number of those years and has been Reunited with them.
And my question is how do I be a good? grandmother. By not trying to on the one hand dissuade any contact or communication between my ex-husband and my grandchildren and on the other hand knowing that he is spiritually a great danger to them since he Despises Christianity.
How can I? Meet the two Circumstances midway where I can at least urge for limited Communication and under supervision. I don't. I do not believe my grandchildren are in physical danger.
Only.
Spiritual emotional and mental danger.
Well, whatever whatever child or children she made their grandfather.
Pardon me allowing the children to spend time with the grandfather. That's what I mean.
So.
If she has a relationship where she could interact and I would try to influence Caution and care children her grandchildren. Demanded into that context, but I think beyond that most powerfully is to have her love for life before collecting.
Again.
Currently who God is and who Christ is. We have seen this happen time and time and time like my grandchildren because they members and We have encouraged them shown them influence the teeth.
Amen. We do have another anonymous listener who says in a world gone mad When even children are being encouraged to take upon the identity of the opposite gender Are there any things that we should be very fearful of?
When we see in our own children tendencies that contradict what is typical of Boy versus girl behavior should we be overly concerned? With boys who like to play with girls dolls and girls that like to play with trucks and do.
Very.
Boyish things like climbing trees and building things.
And.
This is an interesting question because I can remember wasn't that long ago when? Liberals used to say you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that your children are Homosexual or lesbian because they're the boys playing with dolls or the girl is building tree forts now.
They're saying they are Transgender. If they're doing those things they're doing the liberals are doing the opposite of what they used to do.
All kinds of very very creative things that have created this amorphous experience of life where or gender-neutral and the parents and grandparents don't even realize that they think it's harmless and.
So that's one thing that I say parents have got to understand what they're putting in the children's hands. Of course, it's question spending hours every day. But I think we don't realize the degree to which.
Indoctrinate our little ones in ways that we have not even very very. I think we need to recognize that God has created enormous I formed if I have a child of and likes colors and that doesn't have right.
I mean the greatest artists in the world. Yeah, we're predominantly male.
I mean exactly exactly what we need to recognize is that it is not people that is The problem I it can become a problem if internally we don't really work toward having our children understand the role Identification that God has given them the roles that God has.
God has Created people male and female to fulfill the. I think parents have to be very wise. I think it's been time in God's Word Seeking out truth regarding all of these issues. Maleness and femaleness.
There is there are increasing written about this area by by Christian people. I wish they were all on them Christians who are very very concerned about these areas and we are not in our Hands or the culture's hands there in God's hand and we need to pray for them.
God has.
Amen. And I would assume it would be dangerous or wrong for a parent to project upon his child their own particular tastes and habits and Presume that those are only the only male or female types of activities like for instance There are many women who are excelling sports and so on that doesn't mean that there are any less.
Women.
And that kind of a thing don't we don't. Parents have to be careful about projecting their own Image of what is supposed to be male and female that goes beyond a biblical.
Expectations. I think of the need to have our expectations only be those that are and not by our personal preferences.
Well, I want to make sure that I give the websites out and then I want you to Conclude with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program today. But I just want to make sure before we run out of time That shepherding the heart ministries can be found at shepherding the heart org shepherding the heart org and shepherd press.
Can be found at shepherd press comm. That's shepherd press comm. And if you could Margie close us out with a Summary of what you most want our listeners to remember today.
Well, I alluded to it a few moments ago. And I would say we are so busy that we often end up being reactive to our children's. Our children in our home and other than pro watching them talking with our spouse about them.
Identifying their struggles and then in proactive ways not during times of discipline but in proactive ways drawing our children out using scripture and to interact with them about and then to be Accessed to them and to let them learn to come to us as a model for coming to Christ.
That and we need to reevaluate. We need to reprioritize our lives as parents and even as Grandparents because we can become so busy with good things that we're growing up or as our grandchildren are growing up.
Bring the gospel to them in every way we possibly. Well.
Thank you so much Margie for being our guest today, and I eagerly look forward to having you back. And hope one day that perhaps I could arrange some kind of a local conference with you and your husband teaching on these things in a public forum and Just pray that the Lord brings those types of things to fruition.
I'm so thankful that right here in my new hometown of Carlisle. There is an old historic 900 seat theater whose manager seems to be eager for me to use the the space for Christian activities, so I hope that that does come to fruition and I look forward to keeping in touch with you about things like that.
Well, thank you Chris and thank you both Chris and buzz for being so easy to talk with and.
Just remember that it's shepherding the heart.
Org.
Shepherding the heart org and also shepardpress .com shepardpress .com. Tomorrow we have Eric C Redmond an old friend of mine who is now on the faculty at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. He is a Reformed Baptist and he is going to be speaking about his new commentary on the book of Ephesians.
Which is hot off the press from Crossway books. And it just recently came out within a couple of days. And we are going to be discussing this very important book of the scriptures especially for those of us who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace and it was the very first book of the Bible that I had the privilege to study at a weekly Bible study when I became a Born-again believer in the 1980s the book of Ephesians.
I'm speaking of the book that Eric has written his commentary on so Spread the word about that. I am very excited to have Eric back on and We are going to be giving away copies of books to those who ask questions good enough to be read on air so start gathering your questions together for Eric C Redmond, who is in the faculty at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago and I just want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ Is a far far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
I want to thank all of you for listening. I want to thank all of you who have been writing to me and encouraging me and helping me financially to keep iron sharpens iron on the air and I thank you more than words can possibly convey.
Well, God bless all of you and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio. God bless.