September 18, 2008

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -four -one And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good afternoon evening. Welcome to the dividing line on Thursday afternoon prior to the debates in Southern, California once again for those in that area
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The information is on the blog Of tomorrow evening
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Friday evening seven o 'clock one six seven oh five Bellflower Boulevard in Bellflower, California We will be having some sort of a get -together
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I'm really not even certain to be honest with you exactly what this is going to look like all
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I know is I have 20 to 25 minutes to present the doctrine of original sin and the need for atonement and In some format,
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I'm not really certain exactly how My understanding is
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Farhan Qureshi and Sammy's Atari Will be asking Islamic questions
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Whatever Islamic questions are I would assume that would mean objections from the Islamic perspective to that presentation and I think
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David Woods could be presenting something and Some other Christians are gonna be presenting something and then
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The Muslims are going to be asking questions and then we have time to answer type of a situation
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That'll be tomorrow evening seven o 'clock then on Saturday September 20th same location one six seven five
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Bellflower Boulevard. I'll be kicking things off at 10 a .m With a debate.
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I'm working on the presentation right now looks really awesome Looks really really good.
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I'm not done with it quite yet about two -thirds the way through I would say was just crucified or substituted obviously dealing with the
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Assertion that Jesus was not crucified that a substitute was put in his place.
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I am right now Creating the slides for dealing with the apocalypse of Peter Which my opponent thinks was actually given to Peter even though it is a third century document
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I'm not sure how old he thinks Peter actually lived to be but anyway that's the material that I'm putting together right now and Then David would'll be dating dating.
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Yeah, right debating Farhan Qureshi at two o 'clock on can we trust the Quran and Then I will be debating
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Osama Abdul again at 6 p .m. Can we trust the New Testament? That'll be on the 20th and then on the 21st
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I will be debating Farhan Qureshi at 2 30 p .m.
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This is a 2449 South Center City Parkway, Escondido, California The doors open
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I believe at 1 30 p .m. I will be debating at 2 30 to 5 p .m. Did Jesus claim to be
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God and then Jetting out immediately my flight is shortly thereafter.
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I'm going to have to go directly From the Debate to the airport.
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So if you're standing around and wanting to you know, ask obscure and long questions
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I'm afraid you're gonna have to ask somebody else because I've got to Shoot out right after that.
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So But looking forward to all of this, of course I have a report for you next Tuesday on all of this and really looking forward to it
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I'm extremely excited about the presentations These are all brand new presentations, obviously the information isn't brand new but I do try to Adapt it to the position of the person
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I'm debating I mean obvious when a debate should be early on the crucifixion. He believes Jesus was crucified But that he didn't die.
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Well that totally changes what your emphasis is gonna be what data you're gonna be presenting you know you need to try to respond to the person you're debating and So I'm doing the same thing here but then adding to that the fact that I now have this new tool in the form of keynote and These really are the best -looking presentations
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I've ever made there's just there there's so far beyond anything I've made before it's not even funny So they really look good
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I showed I showed Micah a couple of screenshots from the one I'm working on right now and he was all capital
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Wow So in the king of graphics says Wow means I hit a home run on that one, so He made a special black and white and sort of black and white silver
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Alpha Omega ministries logo For me to put into that one and it's just really really looks cool.
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So good stuff I and in fact that in one of them I have surah 4 157 in the
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Quran and I actually it it looks like a professional picture I took it this morning out of my large size cut on with my little digital camera and Once you put it into a really professional looking theme, it looks like you actually know what you're doing
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It's great. So I'm looking forward to it. It'll it'll be great So with that in mind,
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I hope you'll be praying for us this coming weekend. I Have a lot of stuff coming up this fall.
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And as I mentioned yesterday on on the blog just a reminder to everyone that's
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You know, I imagine there are I know of one person Who sort of has a quote -unquote ministry?
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He's on the wrong side of things, but He is independently wealthy I don't know if he was one of those calm guys and managed to get out before the bubble burst or just what but he's
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Just independently wealthy. He just got oodles of money. And so he can just sit around do his do his thing that ain't us and All these things that we're doing requires that people stand with us
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And so I I know that the stock market went down 900 some odd points in two days and everybody's going what's going on, but these these
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Opportunities are still there. The persecuted church is still there. Islam is still there and so Pray for us and stand with us, please as we seek to Take advantage of the opportunities the
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Lord gives to us and there are some great ones coming up including especially the
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Bart Ehrman debate coming up in January. That's going to be a real challenge as well
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So with that Of course phone numbers eight seven seven seven five three three four one
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We haven't taken much in the way of phone calls for a while. And I think it's because You know,
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I don't know. I guess I need to thank Jimmy Akin for You know and Catholic answers for constantly promoting the
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Bible answer man discussion We had as if it was a debate and as if it was some clear -cut win for the
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Catholic side Because we went through that point by point respond to each one then we've got the painfully obviously debate that Patrick Madrid was crowing about and All of a sudden everybody's going.
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I love when you do that I love when you did go through those debates and go point by point Respond to things and you sort of slow it down that way and give some of the background and man
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It's just really really helps me to understand the issues. So I guess I've only got 70 of them
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At the rate we're going I'm not sure I get through all of them before I'm gonna croak but We certainly should look at some of them and I know in light of the fact that one particular individual
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Recently a Baptist posted some claims about the debate with Wilkin on the subject subjects relevant to Lordship salvation in particular the
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Relationship of regeneration faith and so on so forth We still haven't put that on video have we and with the with the video machine right now giving us all sorts of fits
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We may never but we never put that on video. I came real close to it. The issue Was acquiring all of the
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PowerPoint. Well, you did PowerPoints he found He did he did all sorts of silly pictures, yeah, he did some pictures and with backgrounds the ramshackle shacks
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They've been rather hard to find so we've been trying to duplicate that Well, we need to get that I want to do that because at least even if we don't do the
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DVD of it We need to make it available online because well the QuickTime stuff that we're working with mp4 and everything if we can get this computer to start cooperating and it just suddenly went and It hasn't been nice to me all day.
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Yeah, so but if we can get rolling with that again We'll start posting videos online in the 320 by 240
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Format iPod and iTunes and QuickTime, right? Just like we've got the Marian Doctrine ones up there I got the
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Marian doctrines one up and of course that was one camera shoot that we didn't have any control over right now The Shabir Ali debate from Seattle is what's processing in there right now if we can get it to stay alive
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You know if we can get it to start cooperating again, I'm that close to being done with it and uploading it
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Yeah, so anyway We want to put the Wilkin debate together and we should go ahead and review it because there is a number of claims
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He made especially regards the original languages That I did not have an opportunity to respond to and would like to be able to do so But as I said,
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I listened to the Wilkin debates a couple months ago I remember I was riding South Mountain and so it's been a number of months ago now and I Remember hearing myself and not saying
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I have in in no debates that I've done before have I ever Less recognized the representation of my own position when
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I than what I just heard. I mean it was just that bad and I was
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I was shocked at Wilkins behavior You know the the pictures the ramshackle shack
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You know stuff that just you're just like this is this is this guy's a graduate of Dallas what what's going on here?
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So it was it was quite the amazing thing. And and again Every time folks going.
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Oh, yeah, there's a there's an anonymous supporter of James White. It was really disappointed with that Okay, that's that's good anonymous anonymous supporter really disappointed so we'll have to go through that one as well and Take a look at it and go point by point through it and others have said they'd love to hear the
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Stafford debate And I would like to do that. In fact, I contacted dr Hartley to see if he would join me because dr
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Hartley is you know, sort of one of the leading experts on mass and count nouns and so since Greg Stafford wanted to try to Drag the debate off into stuff that no one in the audience could ever begin to understand
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Maybe we could find a time to have him on Go ahead and do an uber technical dividing line going into the
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Issues of mass and count nouns and their relevance or lack of relevance to John 1 1 and things like that And then go back through that one point by point as well
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So there's all sorts of things and debates that we could do We can go through a point by point and address these things and since people find it useful
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Then that's what we want to do. We want to do what is most useful to our listening audience help you to Basically address the same issues, you know
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Obviously, I would think that if all I ever do is do debates But I don't equip anybody else to do similar things to have understanding on these subjects maybe not necessarily, you know debate in the same context, but if you can listen to these debates and Not grow in confidence in your faith.
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Then I'm not doing a very good job and if you can listen to this program Not feel better equipped not feel more bold in your witness and your your willingness to engage these subjects and to talk about these things then again,
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I Think we're wasting bandwidth. We're not here to entertain anybody
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I mean seriously, I the older I get the more I think about the fact that everything
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I do each day What is going to be its eternal? impact What what is the value of what
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I'm doing today in eternity? You know if I'm not training people and and it's so neat the as you get older you start to see the the domino effect of where you've been you've you've impacted this person and then
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They've impacted this person and they've impacted this person. You see the the ripple effect in essence you know, you've dropped the the pebble in the in the pond and you see the the ripple going out and And That's an exciting thing to see
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Especially when I travel even travel a long distance and encounter someone that has been deeply impacted by what we do here so that's what we want to do and we want to make it educational and I don't think that I'm boasting or saying anything else
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But to point out that I don't think anybody else does what we do I mean the topics we address the range of topics we address and the way that we do it
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Absolutely unique, you know, there's no pretension here. We're not trying to be all fancy -schmancy But who else would have an entire program discussing a single textual variant in Luke 23, you know
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Not too many folks and there'd be a lot of folks say yeah, that's why you're small you idiot You're not marketing right and and this type of thing would never make it on You know the television the radio network and stuff like that.
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And yeah, well, that's probably why we're not on a radio network Yeah, because you're right, you know,
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I mean I've obviously have friends who are in the the radio biz and It's a it's a bad place to be let's just face it
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I mean, it's money money money advertising advertising advertising watered -down. Don't talk about doctrine.
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Don't talk about apologetics Don't do any that kind of stuff. That's that's what Christian radio is about today, and there are very few exceptions to that and so I I'm glad that we don't have to worry about that The only thing we have to worry about is when
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Big Brother is gonna step in and say you're offending people You know like the motion that's going to be brought before the
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United Nations Very soon by the Muslims who want to outlaw blasphemy of the
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Prophet And anything that could be considered religiously defamatory
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You know a lot of us sit back now at the UN a bunch of blue -hatted nutcases out there folks
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Just you know, depending on who gets elected in just about 40 some odd days
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Stuff like that could start impacting us, you know, you got to have people in Washington that think that the
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Constitution is Still the most important law on the land you get a bunch of people in Washington that think that all those pencil -headed
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Europeans have good ideas and want us to be more like France than than like the original founded
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United States and there's a lot of people who want to do that and you're gonna start seeing people clamping down on freedom of speech all over the place and Anyway, I keep talking about that and I know people go that's never gonna happen here.
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Well, it's it's already happening here That's the problem Anyway, it's 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1
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I've given you what's going on this weekend Let's dive back into the soul scripture debate from 1993.
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We only got seven minutes in Into it last time because I started preaching so I will attempt to Refrain from preaching but let's let's get back at it here.
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And Why isn't it playing? Do do do do and he watches his computer sit here and not work
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It's a great day for computers today, isn't it? It truly is My computer just decided that it's not going to Play this file and it's gonna hang up and die.
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All right, great. Wonderful Adobe edition has how many times does this work for me?
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over and over and over again but now it has just has just it's just go
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It is it is dead. So is there any possibility whatsoever brother Pierce that you would have a
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Have a commercial or something that you could queue up early so I could re
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Reset this thing and get it working, right? I Guess so Steve Campbell sing for us.
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That's good. I'll write back and see if I can get the sink Oh The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
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Christian faith it defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book
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The Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching
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Leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Admit today's emphasis on the renewing work of the
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Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity Dr.
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John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help layperson and pastor alike highly recommend it
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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is
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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the
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Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book
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The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the
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Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner
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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy
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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omin org a
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Catholic scholar might see something different in mr. White might respond by saying well Greek is Greek mr. Madrid you can't argue on the basis of ideology or politics
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I'm going to save that for some future points simply because we don't have the time to go into what the Catholic scholars say on That issue so I'm not going to go into that now
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That's because he couldn't go into it now That's the whole point if he had a Catholic scholar if he had some kind of other material he would have presented it, but he couldn't pretend present it because he didn't have it and So this is this is how you make an allegation you make an allegation that well.
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That's just Protestant stuff That's that's biased you're planting the thought in someone's mind That there's something wrong with this when in reality you don't have any information whatsoever that it is wrong that is
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Really really cheap argumentation, and he needs to be called on it should have been called on it
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A serious Catholic listening to this should call him on it, but evidently after all these years
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He hasn't been called on it. Mr.. White says that no other passage can be used to deflect second
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Timothy 317 Mr.. White I use James 1 for to deflect second
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Timothy 317 in fact not really to deflect it But simply to hold up a mirror to it and show that you're misusing it now if you have forgotten
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Remember I pointed out that there is no contextual let alone linguistic parallel between those texts
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I pointed out that the context is different the purpose is different and the very original language words were different But again
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Patrick can't deal with those things he couldn't in 1993. Maybe if he could today. He wouldn't make this argument
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I don't know But this is just another completely fallacious argument and so far in this rebuttal period
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Nothing that has been said has actually been relevant to the actual topic of the debate
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You're saying that because the man of God is equipped And sure it does use a different Greek word there, but the sense is that Location here mr..
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White because he can be equipped for every good work therefore it implies that he doesn't need anything else
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Now mr.. White failed utterly to interact with my use of James 1 for he just simply dismissed it out of hand
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He said nothing can be used to deflect it I'm not sure what debate
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Patrick was attending But anyone who actually listened to what I said knows that what was just said is either self -deception or dishonesty one of the two
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Let's just say that it's the fluster of Its debate fluster how about how about we be generous and refer to it as that because that's just a false statement
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I didn't ignore James 1 for I pointed out that Mr.. Madrid had blown it
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Utilizing a first -year Bible students error in attempting to create a parallel that didn't exist
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And did you catch the of course is a different Greek word? He didn't know that Don't don't tell me he knew that before he walked into that debate.
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He didn't know that he's He's what he's just he's whistling whistling in the dark while walking through the graveyard right now
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He's just trying to avoid stepping on landmines. That's all he's doing And he's quite good at it and evidently the the
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Catholics who think this is the wonderful job Don't see seem to notice when he's doing something like that I want mr..
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White to tell us why James 1 for cannot be interpreted under his principle to me that Perseverance in good works and perseverance under persecution, which is what
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Paul James is talking about why that doesn't mean sufficiency Real simple word doesn't mean it different word different context 2nd
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Timothy chapter 3 is about the man of God preaching doctrine James 1 4 isn't how simple can that be and Mr..
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Madrid you don't have an infallible interpretation from the Magisterium So it's just your opinion and since you're not a theologian, and you're not trained the languages
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Why are you addressing this in the first place? I? Want him to tell us about that I? Didn't say that which mr..
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White would commit all the errors although He is prone to do so, but he has committed a few of them tonight
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So I don't want him to read too much of what I said about the errors into his own personal situation
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He mentioned that the same old argument about there cannot be two ultimate authorities one subjugating one to the other if you don't like the
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Example of the Gospels, and I can move on to a different one It wasn't a matter of not liking it
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It was a demonstration that it's a bad example. That is that each of the
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Gospels are They are new stocks and that therefore the only way to understand
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Patrick's argument is if he is making the church and its tradition They are new stocks
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Okay, it wasn't a matter of not liking it That's a misrepresentation again, you know it would be very easy for someone to go you know it sort of sounds like you're you're you're
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Really engaging with some cheap debating tricks here trying to Mislead the audience rather than actually dealing with the issues that are right there in front of you
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It's a little tempting to think about that Jesus and Scripture when Jesus was walking the earth
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Jesus Was it is God the ultimate authority and yet mr.
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White would have no compunction in saying that the Word of God is the ultimate authority again utter
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Confusion basic confusion of categories utter basic confusion of categories
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No one is going to confuse Jesus and Scripture because we believe that Jesus is the very source trying guys very source of Scripture We're talking about what is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church?
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what is the ultimate authority the church has to refer to and to try to try to parallel the
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Bible and Jesus is to demonstrate a category error that just makes you sit here and go is
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This the first time you've ever thought about these things. I mean have did you really sit back and and think about this?
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Yeah, are you really seriously suggesting the Protestants are making the
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Bible God or do you really not recognize that what Protestants are saying is the
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Bible is God speaking and That the question is what is the ultimate authority to which the church has to appeal
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Now I would argue once you make the church infallible all the rest of stuff becomes somewhat irrelevant Because as has been well said once you proclaim the infallibility of the church the church is left in a monologue with herself
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There can be no external source that corrects her because she's always infallible And if she
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Infallibly defines what Scripture is and what it means and what tradition is and what it means she's left talking to herself
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Because there's nothing left externally to her That can correct her or that can bring about reformation and that's is that not what we see in the history of Rome Is that not why we see
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Rome veering off and going off into these odd beliefs about the Marian dogmas?
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You know, I was I was in New Mexico last weekend and Every time
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I do my Marian presentation Where I go through the dogmas and the development of the dogmas and I go through how
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John Paul the second recommended the writings of de Montfort and these these others and you start hearing them talking about how
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Mary is the the virgin daughter of the Father the mother of the
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Son and the spouse of the Spirit and you actually read these people talking about how even using the language of Mary being the incarnation of the
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Spirit I mean just absurdities like this that are part of this
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Marian piety and yet these people are considered, you know apostles of a
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Marian age and Visionaries and all the rest of this silliness and as soon as you point out what we haven't dogmatically defined that But you've got
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Popes teaching it and talking about recommending it and stuff like that When I watch people as I'm reading this stuff, they're they're left their their mouths are literally hanging open
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When you read this kind of stuff That is the result of having abandoned solo scriptura and having proclaimed the church to be infallible
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There's no longer a dialogue going on. There's no longer something controlling and bringing about Reformation because the church is infallible
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And so as soon as you run into something in the scriptures that would seem to try to correct you well, you just infallibly tell people that's not how it needs to be understood and And and and there you go, and that's exactly what we see and what's going on here
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Did the Bible cease being the ultimate authority when Jesus was on the scene in one sense?
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Mr. White is gonna have to argue if he wants to make his case now, by the way This is another area where we're really shallow thinking
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Catholic apologists and there are a number of them Especially on YouTube really shallow thinking Catholic apologists.
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Just don't think through what it is. We're saying When we talk about solo scriptura, we're talking about the church today.
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We're talking about the church post -revelation, we're talking about the church after the last of the
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Apostles have died and The question for us today since both sides agree there are no longer any
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Apostles Revelation is not an ongoing thing Then what is? The sole infallible rule of faith that we can turn to what do we possess that is they honest us?
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That can speak to the church and continue to speak to the church generation after generation Century after century what do we have?
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What they always want to do is go back to a point in time that no longer exists Jesus is walking on the earth.
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So is the Bible no longer the ultimate authority? Well, even Jesus referred to and referred to the ultimate authority of the
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Old Testament scriptures He said the scriptures cannot be broken His final proof was to say thus saith the
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Lord the scriptures say etc. Etc There's no question that he Recognized the authority of that because he is the source of all of that The triune
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God is the source of that revelation, but the whole idea is It's not a matter of trying to make the
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Bible an authority over Jesus Because there's a category error between the two the one came from the other
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That's not the point The point isn't well what was going on during the time of the Apostles or during the time of Jesus?
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That's one of the areas like I said that I've seen over and over again these these
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Especially young men who really I'm sorry. This sounds mean, but it's a straightforward statement.
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They just don't know what they're talking about They've they've never listened to the side to any depth at all They're the amount of reading they've done is abysmal and they show no evidence of actually having thought this stuff through they go oh you're admitting souls come true isn't true because you say this has to do with the with the church and and that during periods of inscripturation
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That's that it's irrelevant to even ask the question about sola scriptura. Yeah, well periods of inscripturation
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I mean when revelations going on doesn't sola scriptura itself assume the existence of the scriptura
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Yeah, it sort of does and so are we in a period where scripture is being written well
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No, we're not so now the questions relevant But it wouldn't be relevant during times of inscripturation, right?
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Well, it isn't true all the time that it's never true Let's see how often they actually apply that To to their own their own theories their own their own presentations, but not very often
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But that's the argumentation if they like to put forward take even barely That Jesus constantly referred to scripture as the court of last appeal
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Well that undercuts his position because if Jesus is referring to an authority outside of himself Then what does that say about Jesus was
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Jesus the ultimate authority? I say yes was the Word of God in that sense that mr. White wants to assign to it the ultimate authority
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Mr. White would say yes Well, he's got a quandary there then folks because I've just demonstrated two ultimate authorities so what is the only way to understand this argument again, the only way for this to make any sense is
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That Patrick is paralleling in Jesus his tradition
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That tradition is they are new stops That's the only way that any of this could make any sense and yet whenever I press these men
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Show us what this tradition is. They can't do it. Oh We believe material sufficiency.
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So I don't have to actually show anything to you This debate isn't about me proven Roman Catholic tradition and yet he's sitting here
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Making an argument that requires you to believe that his tradition is parallel to Jesus Now at least some of the more conservative guys
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Like Jerry Matatix not only see this but they'll actually try to back it up. No, they can't they fail
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But they actually back it up because remember remember Jerry's claim in the
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Marian debate the first debate we did when he made the amazing claim that we have the exact same warrant for believing in the
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Resurrection of Jesus Christ that we have for believing in the bodily assumption of Mary remember that and That is the word of the church
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The word of the church, that's it there is sola ecclesia with a
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Vengeance and there is the death of the Christian faith. There is the end of all meaning apologetics
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Meaningful apologetics, that's it. It's all over with as soon as you go there It's just ipsa Dixit's because we say it is don't question us just accept what we have to say that's it just just forget about anything else and That is shocking and amazing to me
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But at least they're open in saying that now remember then when I press Jerry will show us these things show us where this stuff
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Existed he couldn't do it And collapse on that point, but that's the nature of dealing with this kind of Roman Catholic apologetic argument
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I also mentioned the prophets Isaiah and the Prophet Jeremiah Mr. White failed to interact with that Jeremiah and Isaiah were both in their own sense
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Ultimate authorities he did not address that He says that my analogy breaks down regarding the bike shop because The man of God is obviously implying that the man of God in this analogous sense can we can write a bicycle
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Yeah, that's exactly right Because the the point is of second Timothy 3 is it is the man of God is seeking to do good works in the church
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He's seeking to teach he's seeking to rebuke you see is seeking to exhort reproving in in godliness, etc, etc so it is his analogy that is going beyond the text and Missing the point of the sufficiency of scripture to equip the man of God to do those very things well
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If that does not suit mr. White I'd be happy to use analogy of his own choosing again It is
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Matt not a matter of suiting it is a matter of having refuted the error the category error inherent in Patrick's arguments
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That he uses again on page 42 of his book answers to Catholic claims.
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He says If the rest of the passage again, here's the screaming verse literally scream sufficiency if they are not sufficient
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How then can they make the man of God complete fully equipped in bold print for every good work?
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If I have the ability to fully equip someone for a military mission, mr. White says then am I not sufficient as an equipper now notice sufficient as a what as An equipper to provide the things that the person needs remember
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There's a context the second Timothy chapter 3 and it's not how to become a man of God Paul is addressing the man of God in the church and Patrick simply can't deal with that.
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He has to continuously ignore The actual context of the original text itself to try to make his argument a of course
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Then the objection carries no weight the Catholic objection. Well, I'm afraid mr. White has dug himself a little deeper in by using that analogy
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So I'll switch to that one if he doesn't like the bicycle one If somebody goes into the military and many of you in this room have been in the military when you get there
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You're issued a uniform a helmet a rifle Ammunition not all at once of course, but you're issued ammunition maybe hand grenades
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Maybe you're assigned to a tank unit. You were issued all sorts of equipment and to follow. Mr White's analogy you're fully equipped by the
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US military to carry out a military operation But the military also has to train the soldier
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This training thing. How does tradition do this? Can you explain?
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This this well, it's just training It's not actually it's not providing you with anything that you otherwise wouldn't have
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But it's just training How is? the definition of Papal infallibility on the basis of the consistent
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Tradition of the church. How is that training? Is that training in the sense of showing you the right?
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Interpretation of those particular texts which they then immediately say now we're not infallibly interpreting any of these texts.
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Isn't that amazing? What's makes me laugh that that when when Rome?
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actually cites a text To infallibly define something they then immediately want to say now, by the way
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The arguments that we use to get here are not themselves infallible
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But only the result of the arguments is infallible because they know That some of the
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Pope's not too long ago in arguing the way they did in regards to developing Marian dogmas
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Totally blew it especially in regards to the protevangelium in in in Genesis And so They want to tell us that the arguments can be fallible, but the result is always infallible
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I wish I had gotten to use that type of argumentation in math class No None of the formulas
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I used are actually correct, but I can guarantee you the result is That that wouldn't fly very well, but in the wonderful world of Rome Somehow people go.
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Yeah, that makes sense. Sure. We can use fallible arguments to come up with infallible results Wonderful that rifle to know how to throw a hand grenade and when to throw a hand grenade
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How to drive the tank when did duck when the bullets are coming how to thrust with the bayonet? I could go on and on I could bury mr.
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White in his own analogy He was just really wanting to bury me with stuff that night wasn't he bury him in his own analogy bury him in here with church
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Fathers can't do any of it, but it's good bluster It sounds good today Just because the military fully equips the soldier to carry out his mission does not mean the soldier is necessarily ready to do it
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He needs support Things also and that is the training and the guidance the military will teach him this tactic works this tactic does not work
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All of that is necessary man. He's been spent a long time on a complete category error That's utterly irrelevant isn't very so that the military man may be truly complete and equipped for every military work
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I'll go further. Mr. White is talking about how the man of God that phrase used there in 2nd
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Timothy 17 implies that the man can ride a bike. We'll just go back to that for a moment Yes, let me ask you right is pastor
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Wagner a man of God here comes here comes the divide and conquer Here comes the divide and conquer and notice what he's gonna do
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He's going to point out the pastor Wagner is a paedo -baptist And he's gonna use this as an argument against what
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I said about 2nd Timothy chapter 3 and evidently a lot of folks Just don't think this through far enough to see where he where this is
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This is an issue and I I do respond to it pretty strongly when I when I get there But is that an argument?
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Only if you assume that what this means is that every single man of God is Going to agree on every single issue and that is what
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Patrick Madrid is going to argue. He is going to argue that If soul scripture is true, what that means is we all have to have exactly the same viewpoint
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That there can be no failure on our part because of tradition or ignorance or anything else
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If soul scripture is true, then everyone should be walking lockstep should agree about every single thing
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And this is why later on remember I read to you a couple programs ago Where I pointed out these kinds of straw men and Carl King's response was we don't have to debate your definition of solo scriptura
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We can debate whatever one we run into Which would mean that I don't have to debate their definition of papal infallibility or the bodily assumption
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Mary I've run into Catholics who were totally confused about all these things And so as long as I've run into a
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Catholic who said it that means it's fair game given their own argumentation once again one of the major differences between the
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Roman Catholics and the Protestants as to the truthfulness of The kind of argumentation the one in presenting but anyways here comes the divide and conquer type of argumentation which is which is meant to Undercut this idea that the man of God can be thoroughly equipped the equipping of the man of God does not mean that every single man
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Of God is going to understand everything in the exact same way That's not what follows but as I pointed out earlier the wonderful thing is that Pastor Wagner or Greg Bonson or Bill Shishko and Myself we can come together and we can address the issue of baptism on what basis
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Do we have to go to Rome's tradition? Do we have to look outside of Scripture for these things? No, we can go the scriptures as brothers in Christ and address these things and we have done
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So isn't it amazing that I can do that I can have the debate that I had with Bill Shishko and you can go listen to that You can go watch that you can go see how we did that how we consistently went to the
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Word of God But Patrick Madrid can't debate gerrymatitics Isn't that interesting
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Carl Keating won't debate gerrymatitics these guys won't have the intramural debates and Should if Patrick's argument is right should there be any need for intramural debates?
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Because you see if the argument he's about to make is true that we should all just walk lockstep well, then with the addition of his
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Tradition there shouldn't be any division amongst Roman Catholic apologists and theologians should there
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If he's consistent, no, will he admit that there are divisions? Yes. So is he refuting his own argument?
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Of course he is How many Roman Catholics will ever even think that through for themselves? I don't know, but that's why we're here to try to help them to do something your opinion
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Do you think he would qualify into that rubric if he is then is he rightly dividing the Word of God when he baptizes babies?
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This denomination. Mr. White baptizes babies. Really? Mr. White's denomination does not they would say and I think mr
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White if he's going to be honest with us tonight would have to admit that He would see that as a misuse of God's Word by arguing for infant baptism
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Mr. White is in another quandary here. He says well sure it assumes that the man of God will know how to use the
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Word of God It doesn't folks if pastor Wagner is a man of God and if James White is a man of God We've got a problem then and I'm not implying that neither that either one is not a man of God.
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Don't misunderstand I'm simply saying that one argues for the position of infant baptism based on what Scripture says
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The other one denies that based on what Scripture says So, mr White's appeal to the second
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Timothy 317 as just Presupposing that they'll know what to do with the Word of God falls flat.
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Let me give you another example What about the Lutheran minister who believes in baptismal regeneration? Based on what the
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Bible alone says remember Martin Luther the founder of that denomination said sola scriptura
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The Bible alone. So the Lutheran minister is going by what Scripture says he believes
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Scripture teaches about baptism. He believes in regeneration. Mr. White. I can assure you His hair will stand on end when he hears that preached by somebody because he is a
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Baptist is anathema on the issue of baptism Regeneration, he will tell you in no uncertain terms that the
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Bible does not teach baptism regeneration Mr. White has another dilemma on his hands.
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This is the Lutheran minister not a man of God Now unless mr. White is going to tell you well on every issue that they agree with me on then they're men of God But if they disagree with my interpretation of Scripture they cease to be men of God now again,
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I hope you're hearing this What is the presupposition? The the presupposition of this argument is if sola scriptura is true there can be no differences of understanding of what it says you see the category error and Does he apply a standard to Roman Catholic Revelation to well, we have the church
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We have the infallible church and we have the tradition. We have all the rest of stuff. Has that resulted in Boston College and all of its teaching they're disappearing all the liberal
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Roman Catholics all I mean How many times do I get emails from Catholic answers or from see articles and envoy?
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About all of the aberrant Roman Catholic groups out there the
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Roman Catholic groups that promote Women priests and the Roman Catholic groups that promote abortion and and all these other things
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Why do they exist why are they there are they saying these people are not
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Catholics Why is there any division you see they won't apply that standard to themselves?
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That's why they don't want to take the other side of this argument They just want to be able to imply their position never have to defend it because then it becomes so patently obvious the double standard that is
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Endemic and it is Definitional of their position. They just can't get around. Maybe they never were men of God in the beginning
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Well, maybe mr. White is simply wrong in his interpretation of 2nd Timothy 317 He will admit to you and if he doesn't
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I'll be happy to assert it that he is not infallible he can make mistakes as Can mr.
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Madrid even in interpreting the allegedly infallible statements of the Roman Catholic Church and Since there is no inspired
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Interpretation of this text and no dogmatic interpretation of this text from the Roman Catholic perspective
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I really wonder how the Roman Catholic can consistently even talk about these things Without sort of engaging in a double standard.
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How does he know that he's right on this interpretation? He doesn't know He can only hope he can only assert he can only assume and how does mr
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Madrid know that he is right in his interpretation of the Bible or his interpretation Roman Catholic teaching He can only hope he can only assert etc.
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Etc. Is that really all we have? No, I go the text and exegete it what is the foundational assumption of this kind of skepticism that the
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Bible itself is not clear enough to be interpreted and That really is
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I mean how many times have I pointed out, you know, Carl Keating says well You know, you really never could really prove that the
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Holy Spirit's divine person just from the Bible You've got to have the church's tradition. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah That is their kind of argumentation all the time.
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It is truly destructive of Any high view of Scripture at all? It really really is. Why should
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I accept his fallible errant human? Interpretation of God -breathed
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Scripture. Is that amazing? This is the church that refuses to give us an infallible inerrant interpretation of Scripture But they'll turn around and criticize you if you dare to interpret
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Scripture and to do so fairly in light of the languages which are Irrelevant it's as fancy stuff willing to be doing that stuff.
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They can't give you what they are claiming. We can't give you Is it the double standard is shocking when you really start thinking about it and realize that their arguments are?
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so destructive of their own position Over and above what pastor
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Wagner might say or what pastor knock might say or the Lutheran minister? Why ask yourself that question tonight?
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Thank you alright, well Nothing like a debate to get everybody's juices flowing and I'm sure you're intellectually challenged
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And you've already expressed your opinion one way or the other on what we've heard so far now.
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We'll be hearing a second 10 -minute rebuttal presentation by each of the speakers and then we'll have the period of cross -examination
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Where there will ask questions of one another and then the formal debate time will conclude with a closing 12 -minute presentation
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By each one of the speakers, so we'll have mr. White and then mr. Madrid come in that order and give their second rebuttal presentations now.
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I'd like to point out that in mr. Madrid's closing statements The term divide and conquer rings through my mind in regards to saying well
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You've got these process to believe this and these process to believe that And you see there's these
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Contradictions between these Protestants and so obviously it means that the Word of God is not sufficient to decide such issues and we need my authority
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We need to believe that the Bishop of Rome is the infallible interpreter of all these things and I go
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Well, that's that's interesting, but certainly doesn't seem that Paul believed that But notice what Pat is trying to say.
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He's trying to say that the word equip Has to actually mean resulting in our inerrancy
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Let me think about that's what he's trying to say. You see if it's possible for Christians to disagree on an issue
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Then obviously you need some other authority and I have to laugh because I think of the Roman Catholics I talked to every single one of which says hey my position is the
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Roman Catholic position and say he's a heretic But I'm a Roman Catholic. Yes, indeed
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There is just as wide a variety of opinions amongst those who call themselves Roman Catholics and appeal the same document as there is amongst
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Protestants So it doesn't seem to solve anything for mr. Madrid if he says well you need this other authority because even with that other authority
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Roman Catholicism ends up with all These different opinions and all these different understandings of their own documents that they then write to somehow interpret the scriptures
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It's very interesting that takes place The point is not that what second
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Timothy 316 is saying is that all you got to do is read the Bible And you'll be inerrant.
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That's not what it says The man of God must do what he must study he must work
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He must Immerse himself in the Word of God. What does Psalm 1 say the godly man does what he meditates upon the word how often?
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Day and night Why would you need to do that if he was just simple around the face of it?
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No his work required But that doesn't mean that I need the Bishop of Rome to stand up here and say you must believe what
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I say But that's exactly what the Council of France said let me read it furthermore to check on bridled spirit to decrees that no one relying on his own judgment shall and matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine
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Distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions presumed to interpret them contrary to the sense which
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Holy Mother Church To which it to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation
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Has held and holds or even contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers even though such interpretation should never at any time be published
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I'd stop myself there to just again go. How can anyone know that I mean aside from the fact that obviously the
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Church of Trent Had a very different view of itself than the Church of today I mean the
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Church of today is but a shadow as far as its pretentious authority goes as compared to what was at the time of Trent, but but you you can't understand the scripture in a way opposite of the way that the church has always taught and I just go wait a minute.
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What is the church here? How are you defining these things and when you start pushing each individual?
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you know and I've debated a lot of Roman Catholics and they would all come up with different understandings of how to answer that question and Then and then the the constant teaching the universal teaching of the church
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Anybody who knows almost anything you do almost any original reading in the early church fathers and you go
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What are you people talking about? I mean, it's a it's a it's a phantasm. It's a it's a fantasy.
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It doesn't exist I've said many times I think about the only thing you might be able to come up with is that there is pretty much unified
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Position. There's only one true God But other than that, you'll find differences of opinion from everybody and so it becomes picking and choosing what you want to be the container of tradition
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Etc, etc It is it is truly an amazing thing to observe the Trent says we have this authority and we alone
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We need to remember what Rome is really saying It's interesting John O 'Brien a Roman Catholic writer and a very popular book called the faith of millions said
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Far from being hostile to the Bible the Catholic Church is its true mother She determined which are the books of religion from the many writings circulated inspired in the early
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Christian ages and assembled them all within the covers Of a single book. She is not the child of the Bible as many non -catholics imagine, but its mother
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She drives neither her existence nor her teaching authority from the New Testament and the same writer had earlier written
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Greatest is our reverence for the Bible reason and experience compel us to say that it alone is not a competent Nor a safe guide as to what we are to believe
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No, that isn't what Paul said and please keep in your mind. Mr.
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Madrid said all those are Protestant scholars But he hasn't shown us one single shred of lexical evidence from any source
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Catholic Protestant or atheist To refute the definitions of RTS and XR to glove given to him and if he cannot he loses the debate that simple now
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Mr. Madrid said I think mr. I think Pat knew that I think he really did know that and I think he knew there was no way
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That he was going to have that information by the end of the evening And that's why in his second rebuttal period coming up He's going to do the
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Catholic answers thing and that is let's go cannon let's let's let's shift everything over here and Now that the
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Protestant doesn't even have a rebuttal period to even dedicate to it. Let's start going for the cannon issues
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That's the Catholic answers thing and that's how he's going to try to get people's mind off the fact that He failed to respond to that presentation.
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Well, mr. White you need to look at James 1 for you need to tell us How do you understand
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James 1 for I? Mean you just you just pointed out that That's I it's the same term isn't used in James 1 for that's used in in 2nd
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Timothy chapter 3. Well, it may be Important that we understand that it is a different term and hence it has different meanings
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And it's interesting to me mr Madrid is that his sort of Catholic answers corollary to myself in the sense that we both deal with Mormonism In fact,
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I'm gonna be heading up to the general conference of the of the church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints right as soon as I leave from here heading up there to debate to be why you professors on radio about the doctrine of God and that turned out to be quite the interesting debate because the first thing that Peterson and Hamblin went after in that particular radio program, which is available at a omen org was inerrancy in the inspiration of scripture
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Ha ha ha the enemy is the Word of God. They all sort of stand together We will continue with this review of the 1993 solo scripture debate
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And of course have a review of the debates this coming weekend Please pray for us our safety and our health and the clarity of the presentations
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But we'll see you again next week on the dividing line. See you then. God bless For the faith we need
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